Democracy Now! Audio - Democracy Now! 2025-10-02 Thursday

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

Democracy Now! Thursday, October 2, 2025

From New York, this is Democracy Now. My name is Gillijun-Bay. I'm a citizen of Sweden. If you are watching this video, I have been abducted and taken against my will by Israeli forces. Our humanitarian mission was non-violent and abiding by immigration. and abiding by international law. Please tell my government to demand my and the other's immediate release. Israeli forces have intercepted dozens of aid boats headed to Gaza

and detained over 440 activists from 47 countries on board the ships. We'll get an update on the global smooth flotilla. Then to a new documentary about George Orwell, the author of 1984. The very concept of objective truth is fading out of this world. I'm going to set down when I dare not say aloud to anyone. This prospect frightens me much more than bombs. Orwell, 2 plus 2 equals 5. That's the name of the new documentary.

We'll speak to the acclaimed director, Raoul Peck, and co-producer Alex Gibney. Then, a look at life in El Salvador under a total abortion ban with the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Mariana Rosa. What if having a miscarriage or an emergency during labor could land you in prison for decades? Yes, in prison. This is what's happening in El Salvador right now. And we remember the renowned primatologist and conservationist Jane Goodall. She's died at the age of... 91. All that and more coming up.

Welcome to Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. Israel's navies intercepted dozens of ships laden with humanitarian aid, halting efforts by international activists to break Israel's siege of the Gaza Strip. Video live streamed by the global Samud flotilla. showed Israeli commandos boarding ships in international waters and abducting dozens of activists. A spokesperson Philotelis said at least 443 people from 47 countries have been taken into custody. Among them, Swedish activists Kreda Tundubri, and Nelson Mandela's grandson, the former South African MP Mandela.

The raid came after Israeli forces issued a warning by radio as the flotillas sailed through international waters north of Egypt. In an active war zone, an attempt to breach the naval blockade, we will stop your vessel and act to confiscate it through legal proceedings in court. You bear full responsibility for your actions. You say that we are entering an active war zone. You're saying that we are entering a place where we are committing war crimes. This is against international law. Once again, the International Court of Justice made a provision of ruling that any

attempt to hinder a humanitarian mission to Gaza, it's prohibited by international law, and it's complying with the request to make you accountable for the crime of genocide. Israel's raid set off international outcry. Protesters took to the streets in solidarity with the flotilla in cities including Athens, Berlin, Buenos Aires, Istanbul, and Madrid. Italy's labor unions called for a general strike Friday. Pakistan's prime minister condemned what he called a dastardly attack, while South African President Cyril Ramaphosa demanded the immediate release of the flotillas participants. After headlines will get an update on the global Samud Flotilla. Israel's military has issued what it's calling its final warning

for residents of Gaza City to leave or face death. Israeli defense minister Israel Katz said anyone who remains, quote, will be considered terrorists and terrorist supporters, unquote. The International Committee of the Red Cross announced its suspended operations in Gaza City due to Israel's intensifying assault. The Israeli military is also warning it will attack Gaza's old city, home to Palestinian heritage sites with overwhelming force. Israeli attacks across Gaza since dawn today have killed at least 20 Palestinian. and injured dozens others. Here in the United States, the Trump administration's paused or canceled about $26 billion

in previously allocated funds primarily targeting states led by Democrats. The cuts come amidst the government shutdown. They include two infrastructure projects in New York, totaling $18 billion. Meanwhile, the White House's budget director and chief architect of Project 2025, Russ Vote, reportedly told House Republicans to expect mass firings in the next day or so. On Wednesday, Vice President J.D. Vantz sought to blame Democrats. If this thing drags on for another few days or, God forbid, another few weeks, we are going to have to lay people off.

We're going to have to save money in some places so the essential services don't get turned off in other places. That is the reality of the government shutdown that Chuck Schumer and Democrats have foisted upon the administration. The Supreme Court declined President Trump. Trump's bid to remove Lisa Cook from the Federal Reserve Board of Governors Wednesday, the court issued a two-sentence order stating it will hear arguments about Cook's position in January. All former Federal Reserve chairs and former Treasury secretaries nominated by both parties had warned the court that removing Cook would undermine the independence of the Federal Reserve. Meanwhile, the White House has withdrawn the nomination of E.J.

Antony to head the Bureau of Labor Statistics. He's chief economist at the Conservative Heritage Foundation. In August, Trump tapped him to replace the previous commissioner who Trump fired over revised job numbers. The FBI's domestic terrorism watch list is set to double in the coming months, according to journalist Ken Klippenstein, who's been reporting on President Trump's National Security Presidential Memorandum titled, Countering Domestic Terrorism, an organized political violence, also known as NSPM 7. The memo identifies potential domestic terrorists as someone expressing anti-Christian, anti-capitalism, or anti-American views. Democratic Congressmember Rocana responded on X, writing, quote, Trump's NSPM 7, where presses freedom of speech and association

investigating any organization with anti-capitalism or anti-American views. I run a primary in 2003 against the Patriot Act in war in Iraq, NSPM 7 is a greater infringement on freedoms than the Patriot Act, O'Connor said. Meanwhile, the Oscar-winning actress and activist Jane Fonda's relaunching her father's Free Speech Organization Committee for the First Amendment, which Henry Fonda established in 1947 to combat the rise of McCarthyism. In a statement, the committee said, quote, the federal governments once again engaged in a coordinated campaign to silence critics in the government, the media, the judiciary, academia, and the entertainment industry. We refuse to stand by and let that happen. There are more than 500 signatories supporting

the organization. Vice President J.D. Vance is defending President Trump for posting racist videos mocking House Democratic leader Hakim Jeffries. On Monday, Trump, Trump's, Trump shared an AI-generated video on social media depicting Jeffries wearing a sombrero and curly mustache as mariachi music plays in the background. After Jeffries condemned the video as racist and bigoted, Trump on Tuesday posted another deep fake video mocking his reaction. On Wednesday, Vice President Vance, called the videos funny, adding, quote, the president's joking and we're having a good time, unquote. Meanwhile, the White House is defending President Trump's decision to post an AI-generated video promoting a fictitious White House launch of a historic new health care system, unquote. The deep fake video appears as a Fox News segment hosted by Trump's daughter and law, Lara Trump. The clip is based on the medbed conspiracy theory, popular among Q&N followers who believe militaries around the world secretly possess top-secret devices that can diagnose and cure any disease,

aging and regrow missing limbs. Trump has announced a historic new health care system, the launch of America's first medbed hospitals and a national medbed card for every citizen. Every American will soon receive their own medbed card. With it, you'll have guaranteed access to our new hospitals led by the top doctors in the nation equipped with the most advanced technology in the world. On Saturday, Trump's truth social account reposted the video. before deleting the post hours later without explanation at the White House Press Secretary Carolyn Leavitt

defended Trump's actions, calling them quite refreshing. I think the president saw the video and posted it and then took it down, and he has the right to do that. It's his social media. He's incredibly transparent, as you all know. A federal judge in El Paso, Texas, has ordered ICE to immediately release DACA recipient, Catalina Sochia Santiago, from custody. U.S. District Judge Kathleen Cardone, who was appointed by George W. Bush, wrote in her ruling the Trump administration, quote, did not present any evidence indicating Santiago has endangered anyone during her 20 years at liberty, including her 13 years under DACA. Tellingly, they failed to even articulate an individualized reason for which she should be detained, the judge wrote. Santiago was detained by ICE agents back in August at the El Paso Airport and was on her way to a work-related conference with her wife, who is a U.S. citizen.

Planned Parenthood says it's closed its two remaining clinics in Louisiana, making it the fourth and most populous U.S. state without a Planned Parenthood location. In a statement, Planned Parenthood's Gulf Coast chapter said the closures were not due to a lack of need, but were rather, quote, the direct result of relentless political establishment. assaults that have made it impossible to continue operating sustainably in Louisiana, unquote. Meanwhile, a federal judge in Texas has transferred a case challenging the right to medical abortions to a federal accord in Missouri. Its district packed with anti-abortion judges who were appointed by President Trump. Attorneys general in Missouri, Kansas, and Idaho are suing to restrict the availability of the abortion pill Miffipipristone. In his statement, reproducts, freedom for all said, quote, Mephopristone has been safely used by millions for more than two

decades and remains under threat because anti-abortion politicians are determined to ban and restrict it everywhere, even in states where abortion is protected. This is yet another blatant attempt at forcing a backdoor abortion ban, unquote. In Manchester, England, at least two people have been killed and three others seriously wounded this morning in a car ramming and stagging attack on a synagogue. The violence came as congregants gathered for Yon Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish year. Police say they shot and killed the assailant who's not yet been identified. It's been investigated as a terrorist attack. In Morocco, police opened fire on a crowd of anti-government protesters in a small southern town Wednesday killing two people. The deadly

crackdown came as protesters took to the streets of at least 11. in cities for a fifth consecutive night demanding better schools, health care, and job opportunities. They're also criticizing the Moroccan government's multi-billion dollar investment in infrastructure as co-host of the 2030 FIFA World Cup. This is a protester who spoke briefly with reporters in Rabat on Sunday. We want this country to be in a better situation and for people to be treated as human beings and not as it is happening now with a two-tiered country. We are always asked the same thing. What are your demands? You all know our demands. We all have the same demands.

The same goal. A dignified life. As the protester spoke, Moroccan police moved and dragged several demonstrators away. At least 400 people have been arrested so far in the Gen Z protests across Morocco, which are modeled after similar uprisings in Kenya and Nepal that were organized on social media sites. And the renowned primatologists and conservationist Jane Goodall has died at the age of 91. The Jane Goodall Institute announced her death in an Instagram post stating her discoveries, quote, revolutionized science, and she was a tireless advocate for the protection and restoration of our natural world, unquote. Jane Goodall was on a speaking tour around the United States and died in California of natural causes. Later in the broadcast

will broadcast excerpts from Democracy Now's interviews with Jane Goodall. And those are some of the headlines. This is Democracy Now. Democracy Now.org, the war and peace report. I'm Amy Goodman. And I'm Narmine Sheikh. Welcome to our listeners and viewers across the country and around the world. Israel's Navy has intercepted dozens of ships laden with humanitarian aid, halting efforts by international activists to break Israel's siege of the Gaza Strip. Video live-streamed by the Global Sumud Flotilla showed Israeli commandos boarding ships in international waters and abducting dozens of activists. A spokesperson for the flotilla said at least 201 people from 37 countries had been taken into

custody, among them Nelson Mandela's grandson, Enkosi Mandela, and the Swedish activist Greta Toonberg, who recorded this message before the race. My name is Gevijumbe. I'm a citizen of Sweden. If you are watching this video, I have been abducted and taken against my will by Israeli forces. Our humanitarian mission was nonviolent and abiding by international law. Please tell my government to demand my and the other's immediate release. The latest numbers show over 440 activists were arrested. We're joined now by Saif Abukeshik, a Palestinian activist on the steering committee of the global. Samud Flotilla. He's joining us from Athens Gree. Welcome to Democracy Now Safe. Can you explain what happened? Hello, thank you. We have all seen a new action of the genocidal government of Israel, violating international law, maritime laws, intercepting peaceful non-violencehips of human rights activists, lawyers, journalists, and day-to-day people,

carrying humanitarian aid to block, to break the siege and end the genocide and open a humanitarian corridor for the people of Gaza. We have witnessed during hours the actions of the Israeli Navy, harassing the ships and causing panic and many occasions using water cannon against people and the sailing boats. which could have resulted in major incidents, also boarding their ships with arms and violently forcing people kidnapping them from their ships and taking them to Ashdud. We expect the charge to come, in previous occasions, to illegally have entered into Israel,

which is in good luck to try to explain that. When you intercept ships international water, kidnap the people, take them by force, to your prison and then charge them of entering illegal. This is a new concept that we just have to take from Israel. What is also more shameful, the complicity that we have seen from several countries and governments, including the Italian and the Spanish, who stood at 150 miles, acknowledging those new distance that has been established by force by Israel,

saying that this we consider as the exclusivity area. And if there are ships entering into those areas, we will intervene. So they just have taken that for granted and accepted that action. One thing more that Israel tried to impose on land by de facto, such as their military occupation, the rejection of the Court of Justice, the rejection of the resolution against the apartheid world, the rejection of the 1967 borders, which is a long history, of resolutions that are made for Israel to comply with

and they continue relating and rejecting. And, Sef, so could you talk about, obviously, these countries you've named who are complicit? But what about the countries who've responded, who've been very, very critical of what Israel has done? Among them, Colombian president, Gusavo Petro, who has now expelled all remaining Israeli diplomats from the country? Yes, and I think we should focus on the later part of it,

because expressing concern or oppressing or condemning the violations that Israel is not good enough anymore. They have been doing this for a long time. Even Spain and Italy and many of the other countries, they did make declarations at the beginning warning if Israel takes actions or if they try to stop the flotilla or if they make harm, then there will be consequences and still we have seen nothing. The actions that were taken by the Colombian president are the example to follow. We are fed up not only as organizers within Solidarity Movement,

but also as Palestinians to continue hearing those declarations and condemning and statements while we are living under genocide for the past 22 months. Yesterday, evening, one of the United Nations spoke person, he was saying that they hope that no harm happened for the people on the flutilla. In a way, it's shameful. such a declaration to come from a United Nations representative, very discriminative situation when we see Palestinians are suffering for the past 22 months genocide

and military occupation for the past 78 years. And the concern is on us, the ones who are traveling through the Mediterranean, because of the failure of such politicians to take a stand and to basically impose on Israel. So those are the actions such as the President of Columbia to expel the Israeli diplomats, to stop the association agreements with the European Union, to stop all basically relationships. Why Israel plays in the European Union?

When Russia started the war, they were kicked out from the World Cup, Israel has been committing genocide for 22 months, and nothing happens there. So we need, sorry, yes. Safe, I wanted to bring in another person who's on a supporting flotilla, While Israeli forces intercepted dozens of aid boats from the global Samud Flotilla, there are still more boats, as you said, heading to Gaza. We go now to one of them. It's called The Conscience, which left from Italy on Tuesday carrying journalists and health workers.

The Freedom Flotilla Coalition sent the ship to challenge Israel's siege and the media blackout. We're joined now by Emily Wilder, a freelance reporter for Jewish currents. In 2021, she was fired by the Associated Press after she was targeted in a Republican smear campaign for her pro-Palestinian activism at Stanford University. Emily Wilder, you are a Jewish reporter. You write for Jewish currents. Talk about why you're on this boat called The Conscience. Yes, thank you so much, Amy. I am currently aboard the conscience, as you mentioned, a vessel organized by the Freedom Flotilla Coalition, which is joining this multi-wage. Pluto movement toward Gaza in folks of breaking Israel's blockade and reaching Gaza's shore. The mission of the conscience in particular is it's mostly medical workers and media workers and what it's responding to is Israel's blockade on coverage as well as humanitarian aid of what's

going on in Gaza. It's responding to Israel's targeting of civilian medical and media workers. And it's responding to the silence or even support of. these acts by members of both the international press and medical communities. So as you mentioned, I am reporting for Jewish currents on board. I am here to witness this historic moment, to document this historic movement, and hopefully to report from on the ground in Gaza. But I am under no illusions that there is a deficit of evidence of the atrocities, of Israel's

atrocities in Gaza and of the ever-worsening conditions there for everyone there, but including and especially for Palestinian journalists and health care workers. Emily, we just have 10 seconds and your voice is a little breaking up, but what does it mean that you are reporting to us on this day, on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish year? It's something I've been thinking about a lot today. It's the fact that on the eve, as Yom Kippur was beginning, Israel intercepted an unarmed, nonviolent, civilian, humanitarian mission in international waters against international human rights, humanitarian and maritime law just makes it ever more urgent and clear that Israel does not represent my voice and does not, is not, is not acting,

it to protect Jewish people across the world, and that this is, you know, it's an important, it's an important mobilization for I and other Jewish journalists to partake in to make that clear. Emily Wilder, want to thank you for being with us, a freelance reporter for Jewish currents onboard the conscience in the Mediterranean Sea. And we want to thank Acef Abukeshik, who serves on the Global Samud Flootilla Steering Committee speaking to us from Greece. Coming up, a new film.

It's called George Orwell. 2 plus 2 equals 5. Tomorrow will come like the turning of the sun over tall buildings and the beating of a drum. It lives. in my heart

but buried in the past here comes the navigator she knows you're fading fast Yes. Oh, Ooh. Oh. Oh.

Oh. Oh. Oh. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman with Nermyn Cheikh. In the days after President Donald Trump took office in 2017, during his first term, George Orwell's 1984 became a bestseller in the U.S. The classic 1949 dystopian work introduced the world to the term's big brother,

thought police, newspeak, and Doublethink. Orwell wrote 1984 as a cautionary tale more than 75 years ago, and some say it has even greater relevance now in Trump's second term and around the world. Now, a new film by the Oscar-nominated director Raoul Peck is opening Friday in theaters that explores the life and legacy of George Orwell. It's called Orwell 2 plus 2 equals 5. This is the trailer. When I sit down to write a book, I write it because there is some lie that I want to expose. Again, how many fingers? My starting point is always a feeling of injustice. The very concept of objective truth is fading out of this world.

I'm going to set down what I dare not say aloud to anyone. This prospect frightens me much more than bombs. The words, democracy, freedom, justice, have each of them several different meanings, which cannot be reconciled with one another. Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful. The love in the air, I've never seen a number. Anything like it. And murder respectable.

Freedom is slavery. War is peace. Ignorance is strength. Totalitarianism, if not fought against, could triumph anywhere. Do you begin to see then? What kind of world we are creating? That's the trailer for the new film Orwell 2 plus 2 equals 5.

And this is a clip that features the voices of President George W. Bush's Secretary of State, General Colin Powell, and Russian President Vladimir Putin. It begins with the words of Orwell, as read in a 1956 British film adaptation of his novel, We are at war with the people of Eurasia, the violent loop with aggressors who have committed countless atrocities and who are guilty of every beastial crime a human being can commit. It may waste our land, destroyed our factories, looted our homes, massacred our children, and raped our women. When Iraq finally admitted having these weapons in 1995, the quantities were vast, less than a teaspoon of dry anthrax, a little bit about this amount.

This kind of thing happens everywhere, but it is clearly likely to lead to outright falsification in societies where only one opinion is permissible at any given moment. I've made the decision to conduct a special military operation. Its aim will be to protect those who have been persecuted, and the Kiev regions genocide these past eight years. Our goal, therefore, will be to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine. The organized lying practiced by totalitarian states is not, as is sometimes claimed, a temporary expedient of the same nature as military deception.

It is something integral to totalitarianism, something that would still continue, even if concentration camps and secret police forces had ceased to be necessary. Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth. Had we not engaged in our special military operation, they would have attacked Russia. They, the Nazis, had long been preparing an attack. How many fingers am I holding up, Winston? Four.

And if Big Brother were to say not four, but five, then how many? Four. How many fingers, Winston? No, no, Winston. No, no, Winston, that is no use. You are lying. You still think you see four. How can I help what it's five?

Five. Two and two do not always make full, Winston. Sometimes they make five. Again, how many fingers am I holding up? That's a clip from the new documentary Orwell 2 plus 2 equals 5. That last part is from a 1953 film adaptation of Orwell's novel 1984. For more, we are joined by Academy Award-winning director, Alex Gibney, producer of Orwell, 2 plus 2 equals 5, and by the film's director, Raul Peck, the acclaimed Haitian filmmaker. His past films include exterminate all the brutes. I am not your Negro. That's one of my favorite documentaries of all time. The young Karl Marx, Lumumba, Death of a Prophet, and Haiti, the Silence of the Dogs. Raul Peck served as Haiti's culture minister in the 1990s. We welcome you both back to Democracy

Now. Raul, talk about the origins of this film, why you decided to make this. Well, Alex, it's better to answer that first question. You want to tell it? Well, no, I got a call from a man who had assembled all the rights to Orwell's works and wanted if I wanted to executive produce it. I said, yes, on one condition, if we can get Raoul Peck to direct it. And so I turned to Raoul, and luckily he answered my call and said yes. So that's how it started. But it also seemed like a film. I mean, it began some years ago. It was like two or three years ago we started on this project.

It was relevant then. We had no idea how relevant it was to become. And I remember when we started working on it. For me, Kamala Harris was going to be president. And despite that, I knew that this country and many other country around the world needed Orwell to come back. And because he has been one of the incredibly analyzer of how totalitarian regime, but also any type of abuse of power function.

You know, he teacher how the signs ought to recognize the signs. And, you know, coming from Haiti, as a young man and young boy, I also recognize the signs. You know, the attack on the press, the attack on justice, the attack, The attack on academia, the attack on any institution that can be a bold work against totalitarian. And we are living again and again, not only in the United States, but in many other countries, including in Europe, in Latin America, in Africa, the same playbook playing again and again. So, Raoul, you've said in another interview, I don't make biographies. I choose a moment in the life of a character that allows me to tell the bigger story.

For Orwell, I've found that moment quite rapidly. So if you could elaborate on that. So Alex comes to you with the idea of this film, and what do you think of Orwell? An idea to which I say yes immediately. I don't know why, but that happened. But you're not offered every day to be able to immerse yourself in the whole body of work. of an author that you revere and that is important, like James Baldwin was important for me too. But I know that before going, plunging into it, I had to find the story.

I had to find, indeed, I don't do biography. I try to find a story with a character, with emotions, with contradictions, and a story that allows you to see a film multiple time, not just for what is a story. happening now currently, but also that you can watch in 30 years and you will learn as much. So the story for me was Orwell in the last year of his life, where he's struggling to finish 1984, and he will finally finish it, but will die four months later, and he's only 49. So the drama of that, you know, and the struggle to finish that, you know, for an author, I thought would give me the fine line of the story and allowed me to revisit all his body of work.

Writing through dealing with tuberculosis before he died. But for especially the younger generation, who he was, why he came to have this view, this warning to the world about totalitarianism, authoritarianism? Well, because it's, you know, people have thought, including myself, you know, reading Orwell when I was young, always thought of him of a sort of dystopian and science fiction author. But in fact, he was writing about things that he went through in his life, being born in India. And that's why I used that photo of Orwell as a baby in the hand of a black nanny. And then he went to Miramar today, you know, Burma at the time, which was a British colony.

And he went there as 19-year-old as a soldier there. And he realized the price of colonialism. He was himself the bully. He was on the wrong side. And that experience, I think, shape his whole thinking, and he wrote about it in a very candid and open way and self-critical way. And then the Spanish war, again, as a young man, in his 30s, to volunteer to fight with the republic against the putches, Franco, etc. So all those moments shape his mind, and there is a phrase where he said, you know, after the Spanish civil war, I knew where I stand. And that was the turning point for him and as well for the film to establish who he was actually was, and his whole writing, saying that I want to, you know, to write about politics and art together. It was never a contradiction for him.

And indeed, he said the decision not to make art about politics is itself a political decision, which is. Yeah, and as I say, neutrality cannot be, is also a political position. You know, you can't be neutral, neutral of what, you know. But the other, you talked a little bit about his time in, he was born in India, but I think he was just a few months old when his mother brought him back to England. But then he spends, as you said, from 1922 to 27, five years working as a policeman in, at the time British colonized Burma, And as a policeman, he says that he was part of the actual machinery of despotism, and as a result of which, another quote from the film, that he operates, quote, on a simple theory that the oppressed are always right and the oppressors wrong, a mistaken theory, but the direct result of being one of the oppressors yourself. So if you could talk about that, and then also we'll get into, you know, the extent.

to which, of course, this experience with colonialism, a direct one, as one of the colonizers, but then also the question of class throughout the film, he explains his own formation by his position, as he calls it, being lower upper middle class. Yes. Well, the first part of the question, you know, I had a very good friend, the writer, Russell Banks, and we had had that discussion many times. And he said, the real history of racism in America can only be told by somebody who was a member of the clan. And it's a little bit the same way. If you have been in the belly of the beast, you have learned how the beast think.

You know all the instrument. You know how they function, et cetera. And that's what Horwell was able to do. You know, he was doing a thing that he would come to regret, to, regret. But he knew them intimately. And about the second part of your question, I forgot about class. You know, that's, I was thinking recently about how every politician in this country is using permanently the middle class, as if it's like something, you have the middle class, and then you have the very rich and the very poor. And so every citizen wants to

to be in that middle class. But it's a way also to erase all class extension, all the nuance of being in one or the other, is to erasing the working class as well. Let's go to a clip again from your film, Orwell, 2 plus 2 equals 5. I do not think one can assess a writer's motives without knowing something of his early development. His subject matter will be determined by the age he lives in.

At least this is true in tumultuous revolutionary ages, like our own. When I was not a moment, when I was not. Not yet 20. I went to Burma in the Indian Imperial Police. In an outpost of empire, like Burma, the class question appeared at first sight to have been shelved. Most of the white men in Burma were not of the type who in England would be called gentlemen. But they were white men, in contradistinction to the other and inferior class, the natives.

In the free air of England, that kind of thing is not fully intelligible. In order to hate imperialism, you have got to be part of it. But it is not possible to be part of such a system without recognising it as an unjustifiable tyranny. Even the thickest-skinned Anglo-Indian is aware of this.

Every native face he sees in the street brings home to him his monstrous intrusion. But I was in the police, which is to say that I was part of the actual machinery of despotism. So that's a clip from Orwell 2 plus 2 equals 5, and there we hear about Orwell's experience with colonialism and how that shaped his ideological. formation, which Raul just talked about. So, Alex, I'd like you to talk a little bit about, you know, a comment that, an Orwell quote that's also in the film, the fact that leaders can claim that something that happened, didn't happen, or that two and two is five, this fact scares me more than bombs, and this is not a frivolous statement. So if you could elaborate on the significance of and the importance of this in our present moment.

Well, I think that what Orwell was talking about was the idea of authoritarian leaders' assault on common sense. In other words, what you instinctively know to be true is upended by the authoritarian leader so that everything flows from him, usually him. And that's what we're experiencing in this moment. We have a president who you can't even. say that he's a liar because he just invents things on the spot, but he expects them to be revered as true. 2 plus 2 equals 5. That is the effective, well, it's the slogan, but that's how he impresses us with his power, that he can make us rudder against our own common sense. That is, and that's the danger we must all, you know, rise up against.

That's the problem at this moment. And also he makes, I mean, the point that also you have in the film, Orwell's saying, to be corrupted by totalitarianism, one does not have to live in a totalitarian country. Right. And I think also, you know, the other thing to remember, I think, that's important here is that what we're living through in this country is not unique. And it's kind of a playbook that, that authoritarian leaders go through throughout the world,

but also, you know, one of the geniuses, one of the things that's great about Raoul's film is that there's a juxtaposition of present and past and also country to country. And you can see these same patterns emerge over and over and over again. And it's a kind of a simple playbook to make us all believe that 2 plus 2 equals 5, or at least to assert that's the Pledge of Allegiance,

2 plus 2 equals 5. but it's not unique to Donald Trump, and I think that it's one of the great triumphs of the film. Ravel Peckin, you told Variety, we are in the hands of a bunch of crazy people who have an agenda totally written out in Project 2025, the same way that Hitler wrote Mine Kampf. And you also, I mean, just talking about Orwell saying, totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of, the past and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth. Well, exactly. And I think everybody remember when Ms. Conway came with the phrase alternative facts, you know, and everybody started laughing about that. But that was what we call the beginning of newspeak, you know, and where you actually saying one thing.

and doing the contrary. The same when Netanyahu at the UN say, Israel want peace while they are bombarding Gaza. So the absurdity and the contradiction of this is I've invaded our lives. And I know as, again, coming from Haiti, I remember as a young boy hearing Kennedy and other president talking about democracy. And at the same time, they were a financing and supporting the dictatorship in my country, or in Congo, supporting Mobutu when we were there, and at the same time talking about peace, talking about the good thing that democracy was bringing. So that double language have always existed for the imperialism countries and colonialism. You know, there is the talk and there is the reality. And Orwell, if we can learn something from him, is that. that he wrote about the reality, not some dystopian future, you know,

and we can relate to that and we can understand how this machine function. And so, Raul, you mentioned Newspeak, and in the film you give several examples from the contemporary moment. Special military operation, which equals invasion of Ukraine, vocational training center, which equals concentration camp, a reference to the Uyghurs in China. legal use of force, police brutality, anti-Semitism 2024 equals weaponized term to silence critics of the Israeli military. Now, if you could talk about in particular, because you do include it in the film, the proliferation of these terms through a totally new form, social media. Absolutely. It multiplied that by the million. And we are being bombarded by so-called information, which are absolutely not information.

And there is no checking about that. And there is this sequence with Octavia Cortez as well, criticizing or asking Zuckerberg, what is this fact-checking department doing on Facebook. So it's such an enormous problem. that at the moment where you cannot trust language anymore, you're not in a democracy. Did you leave this film more hopeful or less? Well, it's hopeful. It's not a word I can function with. For me, it's about what do you do once you see that something is not functioning. And I think about what response should

we make? What alliance? Yes. Well, that will be the responsibility. each one of us, you know, wherever we are, journalists as well, politicians, but also the civil society. The response, you know, like always say the 84% of Oceania, you know, they are the one who has, or he calls them the proles, and they are the one who has to bring a response, like the civil rights movement, you know, it was a coalition of very different people, very different movements and they succeed in changing this country. Well, I encourage everyone to see this film. It's at IFC opening tomorrow night here in New York and then moving on to Los Angeles and then to the rest of the country. Raoul

Peck, director of Orwell 2 plus 2 equals 5. Alex Gibney produced the film. Thank you so much both for being with us. Next up, a look at life in El Salvador under a total abortion ban And with the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, Madie Anahosa, stay with us. I'm going to be the I'm going to I'm going to I'm going I'm

I'm I'm I'm I'm the way I'm You know what I'm going to be. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace Report.

I'm Amy Goodman with Nerman Shea. We turn now to a new investigation into what a no-exception's abortion ban looks like. Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Maria Inohosa went to El Salvador, which has one of the world's most restrictive anti-abortion laws and looked at how women have been incarcerated after losing their babies. In the last two decades since the law was passed, it has prosecuted nearly. 200 women for having obstetric emergencies. This is an excerpt of the new episode of Latino USA produced with Futuro Investigates in partnership with El Faro English.

The voices include producer Monica Morales Garcia and begins with host Maria Inohosa. We came to speak with women who have been incarcerated for what doctors here call obstetric emergencies, things like a miscarriage. or going into labor alone, hemorrhaging, or having a stillbirth, emergencies that can have extreme consequences in a country under a total abortion ban. And though having a miscarriage or a stillbirth is not technically illegal here, medical professionals, police, and judges avoid making distinctions to steer clear of criminal prosecution for being involved in what the government might define as an abortion. What does that look like in practice? Well, reports show doctors and nurses can end up calling the police when women are having a miscarriage. Let that sink in.

For more on this investigation headline from pregnancy to murder charge, living under a total abortion ban. We are joined by Manila Hosa, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, host of Latino USA, founder of Futuro Media, author of Once I Was You. Welcome back to Democracy Now. this is powerful, profound, and a warning. Talk about why you looked at this issue in El Salvador. Well, Amy, it's so great to be with here with the both of you. When I first heard this from a Salvadoran friend here, she said, I Maria, they're putting women in prison in El Salvador for having a miscarriage. I was like, this is misinformation. And I actually texted Cecil Richards, may she rest in peace,

former president of Planned Parenthood. And I said, Cecile, this is what I'm hearing. Is this true? She said, yes, and that's when I said, I've got to go. I have to see this. And I had a sensation that it was not just about seeing what's happening in El Salvador, but we have a president, right, that looks at El Salvador and says, they have martial law. I want martial law. They put people in prison without any due process.

I want to do that. Total abortion ban, could it happen in the United States? And that's why I said, I have to go. By the way, South Carolina, this will probably pass early 2026 in South Carolina. This could start to happen here in the United States. Well, how many women in El Salvador have been incarcerated? It's really hard to say. So the women who we met, who spent time in prison, who were charged in one case,

Theo, who was left alone, gave birth, woke up hemorrhaging, and her baby was they never told her how or why. She told me and others that she believes that 90% of the women who are in prison in El Salvador are in prison for this. Even now. Even now. The thing is hard to believe, but if you are a woman in prison in El Salvador and you come in with this charge, you are treated worse than a woman pedophile.

So you are beaten, you are spit upon, you are denied food, you are tortured. because of this particular charge. Therefore, the women don't ever say, I'm here because of this. And that's why it's very hard to get a hold of the numbers. But you have to trust the people who actually were inside those prisons like Dale. You're talking about Buckele's El Salvador,

the close ally of Trump. Trump sent hundreds of men to the Seikot prison. A place you tried to get into, but Buckele personally said no. You couldn't get into that prison. Relate that to the total abortion ban and what's happening to women and the fight back of leading feminists there. Right. So I know when we were going to El Salvador and I was like, we want to get into

Secot. We want to get into the women's prison. And our producer down there was just like, you know, I'm like, who else should we appeal to? And he was like, yeah, no. Ultimately, Bukele decides who from the outside gets into the prison. So he knows that we were attempting to get into both Seqot and the women's prisons. We know he said no. The reality is that the Bukele administration has such control over everything. That night, I was in El Salvador, the night the first planes left from the United States taking removed people from the United States into El Salvador. But it was all done in the cover of darkness, which is the code here, the cover of darkness.

But there is a shining light, as you know, at Futuro Media. We really believe in showing media that has, well, truth, but also hope. The women, like Teo, who spent, who was sentenced to 30 years, she spent 11, she came out. One of the last 17? I'm sorry? One of the lost 17? One of the last 17, yes, one of the original Las Deciete is how it all started. This is the 17 women who became public about the fact that they were in prison for having a

miscarriage or a stillborn. She now has a halfway house. They run theater programs for formerly incarcerated women. They have dance programs. They exercise. I'm going to be exercising with them together on Zoom. Now that the story is out, I can do that. So they are hopeful, right?

And that is the light at the end of the tunnel. As you know, Amy, because we've covered it for so long. El Salvador has a complicated political history of which the United States is a huge part of. But the women's movement, the feminist movement, is still there, still present, still targeted by Bukele, but they are not quiet. They are not silenced. We're going to do a Spanish interview with you after the show, and we're going to post online at DemocracyNow.org. Mariana Hosa, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, host of Latino USA, founder of Futuro Media.

Last 20 seconds, the feminist movement, do you think they can prevail there? A dictator does not last forever. This cannot last forever. The only way it changes is with people power, just as Raul Peck said, It's what each of us decide to do with this moment. And do you think they represent the majority view in the Salvador? I think that it's changing. I think that people are seeing this and they are getting horrified and they're not necessarily that much safer.

Well, I want to thank you so much for being with us. We're going to link to from pregnancy to murder charge, living under a total abortion ban. As we end today's show with the words of the renowned primatologist and conservationist Jane Goodall, who's died at the age of 91. We interviewed her at the Paris Climate Summit in 2015. Well, I listened to Donald Trump saying, you know, that he doesn't believe that we've caused or are causing climate change and some of the other right-wing leaders.

And I just ask myself, do they really believe what they're saying? Because it seems so very obvious. And if you read the facts, I don't see how you can come to any other conclusion, but that it's misuse of fossil fuels, the emissions from agriculture, from industry, from households, the vast impact that's being made by this intensive farming of animals. Jane Goodall has died at the age of 91. We interviewed her a number of times on Democracy Now. most recently back in 2015 at the Paris Climate Summit to see that full interview and all the others

go to DemocracyNow.org. This coming weekend, I'll be speaking Saturday, October 4th at the Roxy Theater in San Francisco after the showing of, steal this story, please, a new documentary about Democracy Now. And on Sunday, October 5th in Berkeley at Banfa for the Q&A after. I'm Amy Goodman with Nirmine Sheikh for another edition of Democracy Now.