Democracy Now! Audio - Democracy Now! 2025-10-23 Thursday

Episode Date: October 23, 2025

Democracy Now! Thursday, October 23, 2025

From New York, this is Democracy Now. The court considers that Israel is under an obligation to agree to and facilitate relief schemes provided by the nations and its entities, including UNRWA. The International Court of Justice has ruled Israel as an occupying power must allow UN aid into Gaza and that Israel cannot use starvation as a method of warfare. We'll go to Jordan to speak with UNRWA, the UN agency for Palestinian refugees. Then Secretary of State Marco Rubio heads to Israel where Vice President J.D. Vance has been holding meetings on the future of Gaza.

We actually see this as an opportunity to build on the Abraham Accords. I think this Gaza deal is a critical piece of unlocking the Abraham Accords, but what it could allow is an alliance structure in the Middle East that perseveres, that it dures. We'll speak to longtime U.S. diplomat, Robert Malley, co-author of the new book, Tomorrow is Yesterday, life, death, and the pursuit of peace in Israel, Palestine. Then to the New York mayoral race, Zaharanam Dhani, and. and Andrew Cuomo spart in the final debate before early voting begins. And the city has been getting screwed by the state, and that has to change, and the city has to be doing better.

We just had a former governor say in his own words that the city has been getting screwed by the state. Who was leading the state? It was you. Governor Hartford. You were leading the state for 10 years. All that and more coming up. Welcome to Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the Warren Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. The International Court of Justice has ordered Israel to restore access to the United Nations to deliver food and other basic necessities into the Gaza Strip.

The advisory opinion from the UN's top court also found Israel had not provided evidence to back its claims that the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, known as UNRWA, lacked neutrality, or that a significant number of its staff members were members of Hamas. U.G. Iwasawa is president of the International Court of Justice. In its final section on international humanitarian law, the court explains that custom international law prohibits the use of starvation of the civilian population as a method of warfare. Israel condemned Wednesday's ruling said it would not abide by the court's instructions. The Trump administration also condemned the opinion, with the State Department declaring it, quote, another corrupt ruling by the ICJ, unquote. In Gaza, an Israeli drone killed a Palestinian-Achan Yunus earlier today.

Officials in Gaza say nearly 100 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli attacks since the U.S. broker-truths went into effect October 10th. Meanwhile, Palestinians in central Gaza, on Wednesday, interred the bodies of 54 unidentified Palestinians handed over by Israel in a mass grave. Many of the bodies showed clear signs of torture and execution. This is Rame al-Farra, who tried and failed to confirm if his cousin's body was among those handed over by Israel Wednesday. The signs of torture and brutal treatment on the body did not allow us to tell whether it was him or not. Our message and our demands to the world are to provide us with the means by which we can determine whether this person belongs to us or to someone else.

The Israeli army knows these bodies are connected to people, but instead of names, they put out numbers. They left something harsh in our hearts, feelings of grief. Honestly, it's hard to bury a body when you don't know whether it's the right one or not. Israel's Knesset has advanced legislation to apply Israeli sovereignty to all settlements in the occupied West Bank, a move that would effectively annex territory Palestinians want for a future state. The move prompted rare criticism from U.S. officials, including Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who departed for Israel Wednesday in a bid to prevent the U.S. broker-Gaza ceasefire from further unraveling. Rubio's trip comes on the heels of visits by Vice President J.D. Vance and special

envoy Steve Whitkoff and Jared Kushner. Earlier today, Vance said he was personally insulted by the annexation vote, which came during his visit. It was a very stupid political stunt, and I personally take some insult to it. The West Bank is not going to be annexed by Israel. The policy of the Trump administration is that the West Bank will not be annexed by Israel. That will continue to be our policy. And if people want to take symbolic votes, they can do that. But we certainly weren't happy about it. Separately, Israel's Supreme Court Wednesday further delayed ruling on a petition calling on Israel to allow foreign reporters access to Gaza. The Foreign Press Association said it was disappointed by the additional month-long delay, which it blasted as a stalling

tactic. Meanwhile, a group of 27 Democratic lawmakers has written to Secretary of State Rubio and U.S. ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, urging them to secure the release of Mohamed Ibrahim, a teenage, Palestinian-American citizen from Florida. He was arrested by Israeli soldiers who blindfolded and handcuffed him during an early morning raid on his family's West Bank home in February. Ibrahim spent his 16th birthday in an Israeli prison where he's been held without charge for nearly eight months. The Pentagon confirmed Wednesday. The U.S. launch strikes against two vessels in the Pacific off the coast of Columbia, killing five people and claim without evidence the boats were carrying drugs. This follows seven strikes on alleged drugboats in the Caribbean.

In the past month, at least 37 people have been reportedly killed in international waters in U.S. strikes. In response, Colombia's President Gustavo Petro said, quote, it's murder. Whether in the Caribbean or Pacific, the U.S. government strategy breaks the norms of international law, he said. President Trump met with NATO Secretary Mark Ruta at the White House Wednesday, shortly after the Trump administration and the European Union announced new sanctions on Russia's largest oil and gas companies. The announcement came as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Trump's proposal to freeze the current front lines in the war is, quote, a good compromise, unquote. Meanwhile, Ukraine launched a strike against a Russian chemical plant on Tuesday using British long-range cruise missiles.

The Wall Street Journal's reporting the Trump administration's lifting restrictions on Ukraine's use of such weapons, allowing it to strike targets deeper inside Russia. This comes as a Norwegian refugee council's warning millions of Ukrainian civilians could be left without heat, water, and electricity this winter due to Russian attacks on energy infrastructure. In the United States, federal government shutdown has entered its 23rd day. As a result, 60,000 aviation safety workers won't receive a full paycheck in the coming days. the authority that operates the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport is planning to provide non-perishable food items to federal workers who are struggling to buy groceries. Meanwhile, the

National Nuclear Security Administration, the agency which oversees the nation's nuclear stockpile, has announced it's furloughed more than 1,400 workers, three-quarters of its staff. On Capitol Hill, the Senate's 12th attempt to end the shutdown failed Wednesday. Ahead of the vote, Democratic Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon delivered a 22-hour speech warning about President Trump's agenda. Colleagues, I'm coming tonight to the floor of this Senate to ring the alarm bills because we have become an authoritarian nation over the last nine months. We are deep into an authoritarian takeover. The Trump administration's dispatching more.

than 100 federal agents to the San Francisco Bay Area seeks to ramp up immigration raids in Northern California. That's according to the San Francisco chronicle, which reports the deployment is a likely precursor to President Trump deploying National Guard troops to San Francisco. California's Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom blasted the deployment as, quote, right out of the dictator's handbook, unquote. In Illinois, protesters confronted masked federal agents. Wednesday as they carried out multiple arrests in Chicago's Little Village neighborhood

in the bordering suburb of Cicero. The agents were joined by Border Patrol commander Gregory Bovino, whose forces were recently reprimanded by a federal judge for violating a prior court order restricting the use of tear gas and other less lethal weapons on peaceful demonstrators, journalists, and clergy. Federal agents fired pepper spray at protesters who witnessed a car crash involving federal agents. They are thugs, and they could do whatever they want, and they crash into an individual, arrested him with no probable cause, no warrant.

And instead of the police department assistant, the guy that got crashed, seeing if you need medical attention, they arrested him. Here in New York, protesters March Wednesday in solidarity with the street vendors who were harassed and detained Tuesday by federal. agents during immigration sweeps targeting Manhattan's Canal Street. This is Awangam, a street vendor and U.S. citizen originally from Mauritania who witnessed a friend's arrest by ICE agents. She was ordered to show ID proving her immigration status.

I always felt safe in America. I feel safe. I love coming to America. America is losing that. It's losing that. And people have to say something. They have to not be scared. They have to stand up.

It is, it is, the time is now. Meanwhile, a Cuban man deported by the Trump administration to the southern African kingdom of Eswatini has gone on hunger strike to protest his imprisonment in a maximum security prison there. Roberto Mosquera del Paral is among 11 so-called third country deportees sent by the Trump administration to Eswitini, despite legal challenges by human rights groups who've called the deportations a violation of U.S. and international law. The North Carolina House of Representatives has approved a new congressional map that could give Republicans an extra seat in Congress. According to state law, North Carolina's governor, Democrat, Josh Stein, cannot veto the redistricting plan. President Trump praised North Carolina's map on social media last week, saying it would give voters in the state, quote,

the opportunity to elect an additional MAGA Republican in the 2026 midterm elections, unquote. It follows a similar effort by Texas Republicans earlier this year when lawmakers passed a congressional map that could give Texas's congressional delegation up to five more House seats. A month later, the Republican-controlled Missouri state legislature passed a congressional map that would turn Democratic Representative Emmanuel Cleaver's district into a Republican-leaning seat. In Labor News, the New York Times reporting Amazon's planning to replace more than half a million jobs with robots. The company's internal documents also reveal Amazon's robotics team plans to automate 75% of the company's operations. A Senate report released earlier this month spearheaded by Senator Bernie Sanders warned artificial intelligence and automation could destroy nearly 100 million jobs over the next decade.

Peru's interim president, Jose Hedi, is declared a 30-day state of emergency after weeks of anti-government protests led to the impeachment of the previous president. The state of emergency in Peru gives the government the power to send the army to patrol the streets and curb the right to protest. Peruvians had been demonstrating over the rise in organized crime and extortion over the past month. more than 200 people were injured in the protests. And White House officials say the entire West Wing of the White House will be demolished for the Golden Gilded Ballroom, which President Trump said yesterday, will now cost $300 million, up from $250 million, which is up from $200 million. That's despite this pledge made by President Trump in July.

It won't interfere with the current building. It won't be near it but not touching it and pays total respect to the existing building, which I'm the biggest fan of. It's my favorite. The East Wing's demolition comes as the National Trust for Historic Preservation has asked the Trump administration to pause construction until the National Capital Planning Commission has completed its review of the project. In a letter, the trust said, it was concerned the proposed 90,000 square foot ballroom will, quote, overwhelm the White House itself, unquote, since the White House is 55,000 square feet. And those are some of the headlines. This is Democracy Now. Democracy Now.org, the Warrant Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. And I'm Narmine Sheikh. Welcome to our listeners and viewers across the country and around the world.

The International Court of Justice has ruled that Israel, as an occupying power, must allow UN aid into Gaza and that Israel cannot use starvation as a method of warfare. U.G. Iwasawa, the president of the International Court of Justice, read the ruling Wednesday. The court considers that Israel is under an obligation to agree to and facilitate relief schemes provided by the United Nations and its entities, including UNWA. UN Secretary General Antonio Gutierrez said this is a very important decision, and I hope Israel will abide by it. This is Paul Reichler, one of the attorneys representing Palestine at the ICJ.

So on the one hand, you have the court finding that starvation is a method of civilians, as a method of warfare, is illegal, it's prohibited. And on the other, the court found that Israel deliberately prevented food from reaching the civilian population in Gaza. I don't see how a reasonable person, certainly acting in good faith, could then say that Israel has complied with its international legal obligations. Plainly, it has not. Israel condemned Wednesday's ruling and said it would not abide by the court's instructions. The Trump administration also condemned the opinion. We go now to Amman Jordan to speak with Tamara Arifai.

She is spokesperson and director of external relations for UNRWA, the United Nations Agency for Palestine refugees. Welcome back to Democracy Now, Tamara. Can you describe what's happening on the ground? How much aid, how many trucks is Israel allowing in? And what about UNRWA in particular, which it has banned? The most important things for us at UNRWA to reiterate is that we're the largest humanitarian agency in action in Gaza, and we have never stopped providing medical assistance, managing the shelters, disposing of solid waste, pumping and trucking clean drinking water throughout this conflict.

And despite the ban by the government, of Israel on international staff. Twelve thousand Palestinian staff members of UNRWA, men and women have continued to work in Gaza, and that is why our services never stopped, even though international personnel and the goods, the supplies, the foods, the hygiene kits, the tents of UNRWA had been banned of going into Gaza. So for the last 10 days and with the ceasefire, the fighting has subsided in many parts, which has allowed a lot of people in Gaza

to start moving back to check-in on their homes. But more than 90% of housing units in Gaza are destroyed, and these people are going to need immediate, urgent, shelter and shelter material, including winter clothes and blankets, in the coming few weeks. Meanwhile, although the agreement calls for 600 trucks per day of food and other humanitarian supplies,

What we've seen in the last few days is certainly an easing, so a slight increase in the number of trucks going in, but we're way, way, way below the 600. So yesterday, 281 trucks went in on Monday, 263. That's less than half of 600. So Tamara, do you think that the opinion by the International Court of Justice is likely to have any effect and more trucks may be able to get in? This is the highest legal authority of the UN, and it's provided its advice, its advisory opinion, based on a request by the UN General Assembly, which represents the international community. So there is a global buy-in for the course, the path, that this court has gone through, and it's the opinion. While the opinion itself is not binding, the opinion confirms Israel's obligation under international law, which also, we hope, will increase pressure on the government of Israel to allow more humanitarian supplies and international personnel, including as we remain the largest in GACA, to go in.

And, Tamara, but could you respond, you know, one probably, can't be too optimistic about what the effect of this advisory opinion is, because as you said, it's non-binding, there are no direct penalties for non-compliance. And then, you know, Israel's foreign ministry rejected the opinion outright, saying that it was political and said it would not cooperate with UNRWA. And Israel's UN ambassador, Danny Danon, blasted the opinion on UNRWA as, quote, shameful. So your response? The response is this opinion could not

substantiate any of the Israeli allegations against UNRWA and UNRWA personnel. So the opinion is unambiguous. It's an opinion by the highest legal authority of the UN. Now again, we are in a realm of international relations and the pressure that can be exercised in order for an adequate with amounts of humanitarian supplies, foods, medicines

to go into Gaza is as good as the pressure that the international community can exercise for the actioning of that opinion. So while the opinion itself is non-binding,

it says a lot about violations of international law and about the impact of the restriction of humanitarian assistance. I mean, famine was declared at the end of August in Gaza. It says a lot about the impact

of these actions, particularly against in Iraq, by the government of Israel, on the civilian in Gaza. So if you could respond to what the White House is saying in the State Department, the State Department's, as President Trump and Secretary Rubio worked tirelessly to bring peace to the region, this so-called court issues a nakedly politicized, non-binding advisory opinion, unfairly bashes Israel, and gives a free pass for its deep entanglement and with and material support for Hamas terrorism. Your response, Tamara.

The advice itself, the opinion itself, says that such claims are not substantiated. But more importantly, if this peace plan is to succeed, then bringing in stability to Gaza, bringing in respite, bringing in slathing Gaza with humanitarian assistance are all key. to the success of this plan. Everybody wants this plan to succeed. Everybody wants peace in Gaza and for what happened to never happen again, whether it's the horrific attacks of the 7th of October

or the devastating conflict and destruction that followed it. And in that sense, allowing the largest aid agency, the one that's most experience in Gaza, not only in distributing food, but what we do is closer to what the public sector does. We run health clinics. We run schools. We want to bring back over 600,000 traumatized children into learning and schooling and take them away from what could be a lost generation. For this plan to succeed, Bonoara has to be able to play its role in Gaza because no other

humanitarian agency has the scale and scope of our 12,000 personnel, our warehouse our teachers, our facilities, and mostly the trust of the community. Finally, where is the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, this shadowy, controversial U.S.-Israeli-backed aid, so-called aid group? Now that the international organizations are back, horrifying the world, does it open fire on people seeking food? Has it just disappeared? thankfully the GHF has nowhere to be seen or heard of since that plan kicked in and that is why for the success of that plan especially the humanitarian element of it

which calls for a much increased number of trucks and aid and medicines and whatnot into Gaza for that to succeed the UN the humanitarian international system the international NGOs and at their helm, UNRWA, has to be able to play that role. We want to thank you, Tamara Raffai, spokesperson, director of external relations for UNRWA, the United Nations Agency for Palestine Refugees, speaking to us from Amman Jordan. Up next, longtime U.S. diplomat Robert Malley, co-author of Tomorrow is Yesterday, Life, Death, and the pursuit of Peace in Israel, Palestine. Then we'll come back home to New York, to the last debate of mayoral candidates. Stay with us.

Well, I woke up this morning with my mind. Stayed on freedom. Woke up this morning with my mind. Stayed on freedom. Woke up this morning with my mind Stay on freedom Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah

Hallelujah Hallelujah Well I'm walking and talking with my mind Stay on freedom woke up this morning with my mind stayed on freedom by the resistance revival chorus performed at town hall in September for voices for Gaza. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org,

The Warren Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman with Nirmine Sheikh. Secretary of State Marco Rubio is heading to Israel today following on the heels of Vice President J.D. Vance's visit. Vance was in Israel to discuss the future of Gaza and implementing the next steps of the U.S. brokered ceasefire. During Vance's visit, Israel's Knesset advanced legislation to annex the occupied West Bank. Earlier today, Vance said he was, quote, personally insulted by the annexation vote.

It was a very stupid political stunt, and I personally take some insult to it. The West Bank is not going to be annexed by Israel. The policy of the Trump administration is that the West Bank will not be annexed by Israel. That will continue to be our policy. And if people want to take symbolic votes, they can do that. But we certainly weren't happy about it. We're joined now by Robert Malley, former U.S. senior Middle East official under Presidents Clinton, Obama, and Biden. Co-author of the new book, Tomorrow is Yesterday, Life, Death, and the Pursuit of Peace in Israel, Palestine.

He wrote the book with Hussein Agha, who has been a negotiator on behalf of the Palestinians. Robert Malley is a lecturer at Yale University, the former president of the international crisis. group. Thanks so much for being with us. Can you start off by just assessing where this ceasefire is now? What is the first stage? We just are seeing a parade of U.S. officials. Vance was there following up on Wyckoff and Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner. And now you have, of course, Rubio arriving in Israel. Yeah, I think some in the Israeli press are calling this babysitting. So listen, there's parts of this plan that are, you know, terrible. And I could spend hours trying to viscerate the plan in terms of its sort of neocolonial aspects of deciding everything

for Palestinians without Palestinians having a voice and allowing Israel to remain in Gaza and to decide when and how it will withdraw. So again, there's so much to be said against it. That said, so far it appears to have ended the slaughter, much of the slaughter, most of the slaughter, and allowed, as we just heard, some humanitarian assistance to come in, and the hostages and Palestinian captives were released. So that's something that President Trump's predecessor had not been able to achieve. The next phase is, you know, we'll see. There's many reasons to be skeptical, to be pessimistic. The plan is vague, ambiguous. Again, it gives a lot of the keys to Israel to decide what and if it will do anything. But one step at a time, I think

it's at least good to see that the guns have fallen mostly quiet for now. Well, the U.S. officials who've been there this week and Rubio en route now are ostensibly there to discuss the implementation of the second phase of Trump's 20-point ceasefire plan. So if you could talk about, so prospects for the second phase, which include establishing a transitional government in Gaza, deploying an international stabilization force, the disarmament of Hamas and the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza. There have been no date set yet for any of this, but now these discussions will be underway. Is that correct? I mean, that's the American plan. And again, it seems that's what they want to do. They want to, and they seem, you know,

the Trump administration seems to be extremely focused. We mentioned how many of the senior officials are there. But each of these phases that you mentioned are full of obstacles. I mean, is Hamas really going to disarm? Why would they disarm when, obviously, they still face, they believe they they face security threats and they also want to continue to be the de facto authority in the in Gaza. Israel really going to withdraw? Are they going to be prepared to have an international stabilization force? Neither side really wants that. Hamas doesn't want to have a force that is going to be there maybe to disarm it. Israel doesn't particularly like having a third party that's going to be interposed between it and the Palestinians because

it wants to be free to do whatever it wants in Gaza. So I think we're going to see obstacle after obstacle. It doesn't sound like they have a concrete plan and know how to implement it. But again, I would take it one step at a time, and if all that is achieved is the end to the worst of the bloodshed, I'd give credit to the Trump administration to have done that. The rest of the plan is not just vague and ambiguous. There's a lot not to like about it. And talk about the battle over the corpses. Israel has just returned dozens of corpses of Palestinian prisoners. The Gaza Health Ministry says there are signs of them being tortured and mutilated. And then Hamas, handing over corpses of Israeli hostages. They're saying they need the kind of equipment that they can't get right now to get the rest. And, of course, they don't have the DNA testing equipment. Yeah, of course, I'm not there.

I don't know. Even U.S. officials seem to have said, yes, we have to understand this is going to take time. I mean, look at the pictures from Gaza. It is almost unwatchable, unthinkable, unspeakable. So to think that they, you know, they know exactly where everyone is. But again, I just don't know. The U.S. officials seem to say that Hamas so far has not violated the deal. So, you know, if Trump administration says that, I think that tells you something.

So if we could just go back to what you mentioned earlier, first of all, the U.S. officials who are there now negotiating the second phase, as you've mentioned, what the Trump administration did, which no previous administration did, is speak directly. to Hamas. So do you know if American officials who are there now, are they just speaking to Israel, or are they also planning to negotiate directly with Hamas again? I mean, they won't, not on this trip because they're not, they won't meet them in Israel and they're not going to go to Gaza. I think the question is whether, you know, when they're in Turkey or in Qatar, will they meet with Hamas again? I suspect there are still contacts ongoing, text or whatever, however they communicate. And again, this is one of the taboos. I expect hours. denouncing what President Trump does here and abroad, but the fact that he broke

shattered this taboo, which is a taboo that never made any sense. How do you negotiate between two belligerents if you're going to keep one belligerent at arm's length and say we're never going to talk to them? So that's good. And I think it helped bring Hamas over the finish line on this deal. So again, something to, something to applaud perhaps. And the International Stabilization Force, I mean, as you mentioned, it's opposed both effectively by Israel and by Hamas. If you could talk about what the international stabilization force, who will make up this

force and nationalities from everywhere or only Muslim countries? And Vance just said today that there would not be any U.S. soldiers there. So I think one of the big disputes is whether Turkey would be part of it. I think you must have heard. It is something that some Americans have thought of Netanyahu is very clear, not an idea he likes. Who knows? I mean, and I think part of the question will be under what conditions are they prepared to go? Would Arab or Muslim or any troops be prepared to be there if Israel is continuing to

shoot on Gazans its respects of being members or officials of Hamas? So there's going to be a lot of back and forth over who's going to be in this force and what its mandate is going to be and what it does if it sees something that either Israelis or Palestinians are doing that it doesn't like, is it really going to be prepared to try to forcibly disarm Hamas? Again, these are huge questions that it's going to take a time to resolve. I mean, the lack of Palestinian people, participation in these negotiations. And what they mean when they say Palestinian technocrats will run the administration? It's not just that. But if you look at what's happening in Gaza, this has been in Israeli. The title of our book is Tamar's yesterday because so much of what we're

seeing today we've seen in the past, trying to fragment and morsel, you know, the territory in the West Bank. And now Gaza, parts of Gaza occupied by Israel, parts not, trying maybe to establish in the parts that are occupied by Israel, different forms of governance. This is really a recipe for greater fragmentation of the Palestinian national movement. And to your point, yes, the Palestinians don't seem to have had a major, if any, voice in the elaboration of the plan. So, I mean, another point that you make, and this is your book tomorrow, is yesterday, life, death, and the pursuit of peace in Israel, Palestine. You make the argument against what most have suggested or argued that neither the October 7th Hamas attack nor Israel's response

are, as you say, neither, quote, new, anomalous, or aberrant. Explain why you think that's the case. And this is partly why we wrote the book, is that after October 7th and after the slaughter that Israel has been conducting, people were saying it's just a matter of getting rid of Netanyahu and his right wing, you know, Smotrish and Ben-Govir. It's a matter of disarming Hamas and reforming the Palestinian authority. As if Netanyahu and Hamas came from another planet,

and they had nothing to do with the conflict and nothing to do with their respective societies. You know, the October 7th, people may not like hearing it, but it was applauded and welcomed by large swaths of Palestinian society because they felt finally, and this is something they'd been trying to do in decades past, take Israeli captives as a way of getting Palestinian detainees out, try to invade, quote-unquote, Israeli territory as retribution for Israeli occupation and dispossession of Palestinian land, trying to make Israelis fear as much as they have feared. So you didn't hear denunciations of October 7th by Palestinians across the board after the attack. The Israeli response, which increasing number of experts have called a genocide, did you see large groups of Israelis denouncing it? No, it was also not Bibi's war, was Israel's war. So the point of the book is to say if after decades of peacemaking, so-called by the U.S., this is where we are, where both societies are prepared to identify with some of the worst expressions of violence and anger and hostility towards

the other. Something went terribly wrong, and we try to tell the story of what that is. You weren't there. You were no longer working for Biden, October 7th. But the rage that many feel that this could have happened two years ago, this ceasefire. And if you can talk about what Biden did, then, many feel that Trump wouldn't be in power if he had done something two years ago, Biden, not to mention the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who have died. Yes, I mean, I'd focus on the latter. I don't know about the political equation. I think the latter being sort of morally complicit, more than morally complicit in what happened. I think that's a stain that is going to be very hard for the Biden administration to every

race. The explanation, I think it's partly, you know, partly the president himself and his whole history, his emotional makeup, his political makeup, his very strong empathy at which he never hides with Israel and the Jewish people and lack of a similar empathy, which his own vice president has now said towards the Palestinians. I think there were other reasons, sort of the habits of American foreign policy. You side with Israel. And it's sort of a, for strategic historical, emotional and political reasons. As you say, the politics may be changing. And I suspect the Biden administration was too slow in realizing, very slow, perhaps they didn't even realize it until even at the end, that the usual political equation, which is,

you always gain by siding with Israel and you always lose by criticizing Israel, that had begun to shift. I think they were late in coming to that realization. And yes, it is something that it's a very sad fact that President Trump could get the ceasefire that President Biden was unable to do. So, I mean, if you could explain it, because of course it's not just the Biden administration, as you said, it was kind of a, there was continuity, bipartisan continuity for decades. And this was the logic that you have to side with Israel. And you worked, of course, with three successive Democratic administrations, Clinton, Obama and Biden. You yourself have said that under all three administrations,

Israeli settler expansion in the West Bank accelerated, even as the U.S. was talking about moving toward a two-state solution. So you were on the inside. If you could explain what were the conversations that justified what is so plainly paradoxical? Very hard question to answer. I mean, again, part of it is just, I think there's this sort of political DNA and the habits of what some have called the blob to sort of replicate over and over again the same policies. I think on a question like the settlements, which is really an interesting one, it's almost the same contradiction of saying we are working endlessly for ceasefire, but we're going to continue to give the weapons that are ensuring that the fire won't cease, saying what we want a two-state solution, we want Palestinian contiguous viable state, and yet saying nothing when settlements expand or not doing anything to stop it, turning a blind. and die, they're the argument that I would hear, and that was said publicly is, yeah, the

settlements are not, they're an obstacle to peace, they're inconsistent with peace, but once we reach a peace settlement, that'll all go away, or the ones that are going to be annexed by Israel will be annexed by Israel, the ones that are going to be part of a Palestinian state will be part of a Palestinian state. So I pick a fight with Israel over something that will be overcome by a peace deal. So in the name of, this is why we say that the peace process and the search for two-state solution became a gimmick in the name of this pursuit, the U.S. allowed all kinds of things that were inconsistent with the end goal. And of course, when it came to the Palestinians, if they did anything that was, quote-unquote, unilateral, inconsistent with a goal, going to the U.N., promoting

boycotts, civil disobedience, whatever. The U.S. was quick to say, oh, no, that you can't do and will sanction you if you do it, because that's inconsistent with the pursuit, the peace process. So really a double standard, which, as we say in the book, if Israel's, if October 7th was a microcosm in heightened, intensified form of the Palestinian feelings, and if Israel's response was a microcosm in heightened ways of Israeli feelings, what happened after October 7th was a microcosm in an exacerbated way of American policy, of turning a blind eye to the actions of one and denouncing the actions of the other. Well, let's go to one of the major questions about, and a very urgent question, about the rebuilding of Gaza. Who will be responsible? You've said that the rate that rebuilding has occurred after other wars in the past, it would take up to the 22nd century for Gaza to be rebuilt. Listen, I mean, when you just look at not just Israel-Palestine, but in general, wherever their pledges to rebuild, how much of that money comes up? I just heard Steve Whitkoff say he thought raising the money is going to be the easiest part.

That's a scary statement because raising the money is going to be a very difficult part. Who's going to want to rebuild? How many times do you have to rebuild Gaza and then Israel destroys it again? So, you know, I think we have to be very, very skeptical about how quickly it's going to be rebuilt under what conditions, if the condition is that there's no Hamas presence, who's going to be the judge of that? You know, what we have, what I've written elsewhere with who... Didn't Kushner just say that reconstructive aid would only go to Aaron? is controlled by the Israeli military?

And it's the point that I was making earlier, which is another divide Palestinians. I mean, the Palestinian people are now divided within Gaza, it's fragmented. Gaza and the West Bank, within Gaza is fragmented. The division with East Jerusalem, the division with the Palestinian citizens of Israel,

the division with the millions of refugees. How are the Palestinians going to rebuild a movement that could represent the entirety of their people when they're being fragmented in this way every day? We want to thank you so much for being with us, Robert Malley, co-author with Hussein Agha, of the new book Tomorrow's Yesterday, Life, Death, and the Pursuit of Peace in Israel, Palestine, former U.S. Senior Middle East Official under President's Clinton Obama and Biden,

now a lecturer at Yale University and former president of the International Crisis Group. Next up, we look at the New York mayoral race as Zoran Mamdani and Andrew Cuomo sparred in the final debate before voting begins on Saturday. Stay with us. I'm just an American boy raised on MTV. I've seen all them kids and soda puppets. None of them look like me. So I started looking around for light out of the dim. The first thing I heard that may sense was the word with Mohammed G's built upon him.

How should I do? Lae la, la, la, la, la. There's no god to God if my daddy can see me now. John Walker's Blues by Steve Earle performing in our Democracy Now studio. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. I'm Amy Goodman with Nirmine Sheikh. The final debate of New York City's closely watched mayoral race took place Wednesday night. Democratic Socialist State Assemblyman, Zohran Mamdani, is the Democratic nominee.

If he wins, he would become the city's first Muslim mayor. He faced off with Republican candidate Curtis Sliwa and Independent. candidate and former governor, Andrew Cuomo, who resigned in disgrace in 2021. This is part of one exchange, starting with Sliwa. My adversaries have decided to bump chess with President Trump to prove who's more macho. You can't beat Trump. He holds most of the cards. He's already cut federal funding for Medicaid, the SNAP program, and it's threatened

and cut funds for NYCHA. So if you're all of a sudden going to get adversarial, you're going to lose. And who gets hurt the people of New York City. With Trump, it's always the art of the deal. Mr. Cuomo. Yeah. The difference on this question is I've actually lived it and I've done it with President Trump over many years through the most difficult situation that this country has gone

through COVID-plus. You're wrong. You're going to have to confront President Trump. He is hyper-aggressive. And he is going to overstep his bounds. and you are going to have to confront him, and you can beat him. I confronted him, and I have beaten him. He was going to quarantine New York during COVID, and I stopped him.

He was going to cut aid to federal programs, and I stopped him. We first just heard from the Republican candidate for mayor, and then we heard from Donald Trump's puppet himself, Andrew Cuomo. You could turn on TV any day of the week, and you will hear Donald Trump share that his pick for mayor is Andrew Cuomo. And he wants Andrew Cuomo to be the mayor, not because it will be good for New Yorkers, but because it will be good for him. Look, Donald Trump ran on three promises. He ran on creating the single largest deportation force in American history.

He ran on going after his political enemies, and he ran on lowering the cost of living. If he wants to talk to me about the third piece of that agenda, I will always be ready and willing. But if he wants to talk about how to pursue the first and second piece of that agenda at the expense of New Yorkers, I will fight him every single step of the way. That was Tehran Mamdani, Andrew Cuomo, and Curtis Lewa at last night's mayor of debate. Later in the debate, Mamdani confronted Cuomo about his record. Mr. Cuomo, in 2021, 13 different women who worked in your administration incredibly accused you of sexual harassment. Since then, you have spent more than $20 million in taxpayer funds to defend yourself,

all while describing these allegations as an individual. entirely political. You have even gone so far as to legally go after these women. One of those women, Charlotte Bennett, is here in the audience this evening. You sought to access her private gynecological records. She cannot speak up for herself because you lodged a defamation case against her. I, however, can speak. What do you say to the 13 women that you sexually harassed? If you want to be in government, then you have to be serious and mature. There were allegations of sexual harassment.

They were then, went to five district's attorneys, fully litigated for four years, the cases were dropped, right? You know that as a fact. So everything you just stated, you just said was a misstatement, which were accustomed to for me. Everything that I stayed was a misstatement?

Yes, because the cases were dropped. That's what happened. So that's Andrew Cuomo answering Zoran Mamdani. This is another excerpt from the debate. This begins with former governor Cuomo. There is a tension between the city and the state. The city's arguments for its budgets. The state is saying no.

And the city has been getting screwed by the state. And that has to change. and the city has to be doing better. We just had a former governor say in his own words that the city has been getting screwed by the state. Who was leading the state? It was you. Governor Holtful.

You were leading the state for 10 years, screwing the city. You cut her as a legislator. You cut funding for the FTA. You did all of these things, my friend. That's the past four years. It's the past four years. All of this comes as early voting is set. to begin Saturday ahead of the November 4th mayor election. In the final weeks, there's been

growing pressure for Republican Curtis Slewa to drop out. On Wednesday, Slewa abruptly quit his job at WAA ABC radio during a live interview on the station complaining that billionaire owner, John Katsmottidis, was backing Cuomo, along with other billionaires, who claimed they would leave New York if taxed too highly under Mamdani. Katsimatidis owns Gristides and Dagestinos, the grocery chains. For more, we're joined by journalist Ross Barkin, who is following all of this very closely. He's a columnist for New York Magazine, wrote a book on Cuomo titled The Prince, Andrew Cuomo, Coronavirus, in the fall of New York. His most recent book, Fascism or Genocide, How a Decade of Political Disorder Broke American Politics. Ross,

Welcome back to Democracy Now. Talk about the significance of this last debate and also, you know, the significance of this race for the country with a Democratic socialist in the lead. Say that the race is more significant than the debate. The debate was very interesting, but I don't think it will change all that much. I mean, time is running out for the race dynamics to shift because Iran-Bam-Dani holds a significant lead. Andrew Cuomo is in second, Curtis Lee, other Republicans, and third. He's not dropping out.

Early voting is coming up very soon. I expect Mamdani to win. It's not guaranteed. Nothing is guaranteed in life. But he's got a great shot. And for the country, for New York City, it's quite significant. I mean, this is the first time an unabashedly left-wing socialist politician will get to hold a major executive office.

Bernie Sanders is the mayor of Burlington, Vermont. Burlington, Vermont is the size of a few neighborhoods in Brooklyn. So our Mondani is going to run one of the great and massive and important cities in the world, and all eyes are going to be on him. He's going to be controlling the largest police department in America, the largest education department, and he will be a leader. Whether he chooses to be a national figure or not, he is one. And so much will be riding on next year and beyond assuming he wins in a few weeks.

And Ross, you mentioned that, of course, in New York City has the largest police department in the U.S. And yesterday during the debate, Zeran confirmed that he's asked Eric Adams' appointee, Jessica Tish, to stay on as the New York Police Department's commissioner. If you could talk about the importance of him having done that. Well, it's a fascinating choice. It brings great promise and peril as well. So Jessica Tisch is popular with the city's business and finance elite. She's popular with a lot of media members and editorial boards. She's someone who's had success in battling corruption at the police department. She was appointed last year after Eric Adams was indicted. And she is someone who's never walked to beat. She's Harvard educated. She's billionaire. And she's politically a moderate. She does not share Zeran Nandani's politics, but for him, having commissioner like that can ease some of the fears among the many voters and donors who are wary of a 34-year-old socialist running the city. And it might allow him to maneuver on the rest of his agenda. He ran on an affordability agenda. He wants to deliver on a rent-freeze,

on free buses, on a massive child care expansion. And having Tish there, though she's handling police, could be a way for him to maneuver with those other policy aims because she will have at least placated momentarily some of his opponents. Ross, you mentioned, of course, he has run entirely on an agenda of affordability, which includes a rent freeze. But this issue came up last night, too. The Rent Guidelines Board,

How does that work, who appoints its members, and how could it make it absolutely impossible for Zohran to go ahead with any kind of rent freeze? So the rent guidelines board determines the rent increases or lack thereof of of the city's rent-stabilized units of which there are a lot. There's roughly a million or so, at least a million tenants in rent-stabilized units. And the mayor appoints the members of the board. they do serve terms. There's talk of Eric Adams trying to stack the board as he leaves to make it harder for Mamdani in his first year to fill vacancies. But ultimately, it's a bit like the Supreme Court where you get the appointment

and you don't need the confirmation of any Senate or anybody like that. And it's very easy for a mayor to shape a board. Bill de Blasio got three rent freezes out of his rent guidelines for it. Eric Adams has typed the rent on rent stable. apartment every single year as mayor. Michael Bloomberg hiked the rents quite dramatically. So a mayor has a lot of power to do this. Of all of his campaign promises, this is one that in four years is quite deliverable. I want to go back to last night's debate. This is Zoran Mamdani. You will hear from Andrew Cuomo about his experience as if the issue is that

we don't know about it. The issue is that we have all experienced your experience. The issue, is that we experienced you taking a $5 million book deal while you sent seniors to their deaths in nursing homes. The issue is that we experienced you cutting funding for the MTA to send money to upstate skiers. The issue is that we saw you give $959 million in tax breaks to Elon Musk. The issue is your experience. The only thing, the issue is you have no experience. You've accomplished nothing. You haven't proposed the bill on anything, and you still haven't said if you're closed

backers in 2027. So that was Cuomo and Zoran Mamdani. Comment on that, Ross Barkin, but also your latest book is called Fascism or Genocide, how a decade of political disorder broke American politics. You're not addressing directly the Mamdani candidacy. But what does his ascendancy say about the fracture within the... Democratic Party nationally? It is the sort of campaign that a few years ago would have been considered quite far-fetched

because Mamdani is pro-Palestine and openly pro-Palestine. And that was taboo in the Democratic Party until, you know, maybe a year ago, maybe even less. And you saw I write a lot about the uncommitted movement last year that challenged Joe Biden and the unrest, the DNC. and Mamdani is a continuation of that and he is an apotheosis in some ways. You have a movement that was quite small and marginalized and had very few supporters at all. And now you have the possible future mayor of New York City who's not afraid to say free Palestine or support BDS or criticize Netanyahu and his even call for Netanyahu's arrest.

So that is significant. Andrew Cuomo is an Israel, he's always been one. So Mamdani and Cuomo are completely an opposite sides on this issue. And Mamdani won a dramatic primary victory. He won by a lot. And if the polls aren't to be believed, then I think they are.

If anything, it might be undercounting Mamdani's vote, especially his youth supporters, he's going to win against. That's a very big deal for the pro-Palestine side in this. And it's been remarkable that the two leading Democratic national figure, Hakeem Jeffreys, right, represents the Democrats in the House of Representatives and Chuck Schumer, have not endorsed Mamdani. Of course, he's gotten a lot of national endorsements from senators and Congress members as well.

But Hakeem Jeffries has not yet? It's, no, they have not. Even the governor of New York, Kathy Holbel, who's a centrist and very pro-Israel and has openly said she disagrees with Mamdani, has endorsed him. So it's not clear at this point what the calculus truly is, other than maybe they feel by endorsing Mamdani, they could hurt Democrats in swing districts. It seems like they're overthinking it a bit. They're certainly both very pro-Israel.

You know, Schumer and Jeffries both, one would characterize Israel Hawks. So Momdani's politics make them uncomfortable. They're both from New York City, from Brooklyn. So they are ground zero for all this. But I think there are a lot of rank and file Democrats were wondering why the leaders of the party can endorse the Democratic nominee. Certainly if Mamdani wins by a significant margin, they do look weak.

We want to go to another topic now, Ross. You have a new article for New York Magazine headlined. Trump is courting catastrophe in Venezuela. And we want to ask you about this latest news we had in headlines. The Pentagon confirmed Wednesday that the U.S. launched strikes against two vessels in the Pacific off the coast of Colombia, killing five people and claimed without evidence that the boats were carrying drugs. This follows seven strikes on alleged drug boats in the Caribbean before. So if you could comment on that.

It's quite dangerous and quite disturbing. And it runs counter to the image that Trump now is trying to propagate as being a peace president for working towards a ceasefire, achieving one, a tentative one at least, a peace agreement in the Middle East between Hamas and Israel. which I actually think Trump deserves some praise for. I have said that. But Venezuela here, you have a situation where the United States seems fairly committed to attempting regime change.

And whatever, you know, however horrific Maduro is, and I do believe he's a dictator who has really miscerated his people, the idea that you can go into Venezuela, take out the government, and peacefully initiate into. kind of regime change is an absolute fantasy. I mean, this would be like Iraq or Afghanistan or Libya, but in some ways, a lot of work. I mean, you organize the militaries and paramilitaries and the country's politics are quite complex. And you have Trump and Rubio and a lot of these, you know, maga types just playing with fire

in a very real way. And it is dangerous. And we are, I fear, sleepwalking towards catastrophe. I hope Trump pulls back, like with Iran, he did not push it further, but you don't know. And that's the concerning thing now. You're killing people extrajudiciously, and you're talking about throwing out a leader of a country. We did that in Libya. We did in Iraq.

It did not end well. We're going to have to leave it there. And, of course, he's also attacking Colombian votes and killing Colombians as well. Ross Barkin, journalist author and columnist for New York Magazine, his latest book, fascism or genocide, how a decade of political disorder broke American politics. That does it for our show. I'm Amy Goodman with Nermin-Sheikh for Democracy Now.