Democracy Now! Audio - Democracy Now! 2025-11-04 Tuesday

Episode Date: November 4, 2025

Democracy Now! Tuesday, November 4, 2025

From New York, this is Democracy Now. We know and have known for months that Donald Trump would favor Andrew Cuomo as the mayor. They share the same donors. They share the same small vision. They share the same sense of impunity. It's Election Day in many parts of the United States. Here in New York, Democratic Socialist mayoral candidate Zoran Mamdani spoke out Monday after President Trump and Elon Musk endorsed former Governor Andrew Cuomo.

We'll get the latest on the New York mayoral race and other critical races, as well as Proposition 50 in California. then former Vice President Dick Cheney has died at the age of 84. He was a key architect of the U.S. invasion of Iraq and the U.S. torture program after 9-11. What we did in Iraq was exactly the right thing to do. If I had it to recommend all over again, I would recommend exactly the right same course of action. We'll speak to the nation's John Nichols, author of The Rise and Rise of Richard B. Cheney, unlocking the mysteries of the most powerful vice president in American history. Then to Pulitzer Prize-winning reporters Carol Lennox and Aaron Davis about their

blockbuster new book, out today, Injustice, how politics and fear vanquished America's Justice Department. All that and more coming up. Welcome to Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. and peace report. I'm Amy Goodman. It's Election Day here in the United States, voters in New Jersey and Virginia casting their ballots for governor. Meanwhile, voters in California will be weighing in on a new set of congressional maps pushed by Governor Gavin Newsom that could give Democrats a five-seat advantage in Congress. That's in response to the GOP-led Texas state legislature passing congressional maps earlier this year that would enable Republicans to pick up five additional

house seats. Here in New York City, Democratic nominee Zoran Mandani is running against former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo and Republican Curtis Sliwa to succeed outgoing Mayor Eric Adams. President Trump last night threw his support behind Cuomo and threatened to restrict federal funds for New York City if Mamdani wins. This is Zoran Mamdani's. response. It is a threat. It is not the law. And too often we treat everything that comes out of Donald Trump's mouth as if it is already legal just by virtue of who is saying. And it is

time to finally stand up to the bullies that make these threats, not to become the bullies ourselves. The world's richest person, billionaire Elon Musk, is also urging New Yorkers to vote for Cuomo, writing on X quote, bear in mind that a vote for Curtis is really a vote for mum dummy or whatever his name is, Musk tweeted, intentionally misspelling and mocking Mamdani's name. After headlines, we'll have more on what's at stake this election day with John Nichols, executive editor of the nation. The U.S. federal government shutdown has entered its 35th day tying the record with the longest shutdown in history, with no end in sight. It comes as the Trump administration agreed to comply with the court order to partially fund food benefits to 42 million people.

The Department of Agriculture announced it'll tap into a contingency fund to provide only half of the benefits under SNAP. That's the Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program. Democratic Congress member Rashida Talib said, quote, It shouldn't take a court order to get the president to stop starving families and release the funds. she said. On Monday, Republican Senator John Barrasso blocked a Democratic bill demanding full funding for SNAP benefits. About one in eight U.S. residents get an average of $187 a month in food benefits from the government. This is Jessica Alasea, SNAP recipient in Virginia. I know what it's like to give my kids food and not eat for the night. I know what it's like

to make sure that at the end of the day, my kids have all that they mean while I go without. In labor news, several major U.S. companies have announced layoffs affecting tens of thousands of workers. Amazon said it'll eliminate about 14,000 corporate jobs, with Reuters reporting that number could more than double as artificial intelligence tools increasingly replace white-collar workers. Meanwhile, Target announced plans to cut 1,800 corporate jobs. General Motors said it's cutting over 3,300 electric vehicle jobs, and Paramount began laying off 2,000 workers following the media conglomerates merger with Skydance. Meanwhile, shipping giant UPS said it's eliminated some 48,000 jobs this year. Last week, the Federal Reserve lowered interest rates for the second

consecutive meeting, as Fed Chair Jerome Powell warned of a weakening labor market. The Fed's decision came in the absence of key data on inflation and employment due to the government shutdown. The 10 richest Americans have seen their wealth collectively grow by $700 billion since President Trump's return to office. That's according to a report by Oxfam America, which details that this year the share of total U.S. assets held by the richest 0.1 percent of Americans reached its highest level on record at 12.6 percent. Abby Maxman, president and CEO of Oxfam America, said, quote, now the Trump administration and Republicans in Congress risk turbocharging that inequality as they wage a relentless attack on working people and bargain with

livelihoods during the government shutdown, unquote. Former President Dick Cheney has died at the age of age of age. Beginning in 1978, Cheney served six terms as Wyoming's lone U.S. Congress member where he voted against a resolution calling for the release of Nelson Mandela in South Africa and against a holiday for Martin Luther King, Jr. He left Congress in 1989 to serve as Defense Secretary under President George H.W. Bush, overseeing the first Gulf War and the U.S. invasion of Panama that deposed leader and former U.S. ally Manuel Nurega while killing K. hundreds of people. From 1995 to 2000, Cheney served as chair and CEO of the oil services company Halliburton before George W. Bush tapped him as his running mate. As vice president, Cheney was a key architect of the 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq under the false pretext of preventing Saddam Hussein from developing weapons of mass destruction. The invasion led to more than 650,000 deaths, according to a study by the Lancet.

As the occupation of Iraq foundered, Cheney argued for the Salvador option, using death squad similar to U.S. supported paramilitaries in El Salvador and other Central American countries in the 1980s. Dick Cheney steadfastly defended

the use of torture against detainees of the so-called war on terror. This is Cheney speaking to meet the press just days after the 9-11 attacks in 2001. We also have to work though sort of the dark side, if you will. We've got to spend time in the shadows and in the intelligence world.

A lot of what needs to be done here will have to be done quietly without any discussion using sources and methods that are available to our intelligence agencies if we're going to be successful. We'll have more on Vice President Dick Cheney's life and legacy later in the broadcast. In Sudan, the UN's migration agency says more than 36,000 people of fled offshar since the city was seized by the paramilitary rapid support forces last week after 18 months under siege. Displaced families were forced to walk to the neighboring town of Tuila, that's already sheltering more than 650,000 people forced out of their homes. Survivors describe streets littered with corpses and families separated by violence

with those displaced forced to trek for days without food or water. This comes as famine, Gryps al-Fasher, and the town of Cadugli, according to a report by the Integrated Food Security Phase classification, and the world's leading authority on food crises. Famine is also threatening to spread to 20 other areas in the Darfur region in central Sudan's Cardiffon region as fighting between the Sudanese government and the RSF rages on. Meanwhile, the RSF vowed to take over the city of El Obed in central Sudan,

currently under control by the Sudanese army. Israel is continuing to intensify its attacks across Gaza, of further violating the U.S. brokered truce that went into effect October 10th. Al Jazeera reports Israeli forces have demolished homes and residential buildings in Gaza City, as Palestinian families still don't have access to enough food, clean water, medicines, or safe shelter with winter approaching. There are an estimated 75,000 displaced people, sheltering in overcrowded unrued-run buildings damaged by Israeli attacks,

while tens of thousands of others are living in makeshift refugee camps in Gaza or amidst the rubble of what was once their homes. This is a Palestinian man in Canunis. Today, the basic necessities aren't available. Meat isn't available and chicken isn't either. As for the situation of vegetables today, it's unpredictable. Sometimes prices go up, sometimes they go down. The situation is hard.

We can't bear it. We're living in tents. All our lives we've prayed for winter rain. But today we hope winter doesn't come because we will be humiliated in tents. Israel's released the bodies of another 45 Palestinians after Hamas returned the remains of three Israeli soldiers. As of Monday, Israel's handed over the bodies of at least 270 Palestinians since the U.S.-backed Gaza deal went into effect last month. Israel's also released another five Palestinians in Israeli prison custody. The men were taken to Gaza's El Aksa Hospital and Darabala for medical care.

Many of the bodies and Palestinian captives released by Israel show signs of torture and abuse. Its estimated Israel still holds the remains of about 1,500 Palestinians from Gaza. This all comes as fallout continues following the arrest of a former top lawyer of the Israeli military for her role in the leak of surveillance video that showed Israeli soldiers gang raping, a Palestinian prisoner at the Siddet-Temann prison last year. Major generally Fatomir Yer Ural Shami was arrested on Sunday, and what now Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has called Israel's worst PR attack in its history. He's yet to condemn the rape of the Palestinian prisoner, who has since been released to Gaza.

And Southern California advocates are raising more alarm over ISIS' use of force and immigration raids after agents shot, a 25-year-old U.S. citizen in the Los Angeles area as he attempted to warn the federal officers that children would soon gather at a school bus stop where the officers had just pulled over a vehicle. Lawyers for Carlos Jimenez said he was shot while trying to leave the scene and reversed his car in panic. A bullet remains lodged in the back of his right shoulder. Jimenez was then arrested, accused of assaulting an officer which his lawyers deny. He was released from jail on bond last week as he faces federal charges. The shooting came about a week after ICE agents shot a Mexican immigrant. They were attempting to arrest during a botched

operation in Los Angeles late last month. In more immigration news, two separate courts have ordered the Trump administration not to deport a man who spent 43 years in a Pennsylvania prison for a crime he did not commit. On October 3rd, 64-year-old Surbaniam Vedam walked free from Huntingdon State Correctional Institution, where he'd been held for over four decades after his conviction for a 1982 murder was vacated. His freedom came three years after the Pennsylvania Innocence Project uncovered evidence that prosecutors had buried an FBI report that would have exonerated him. He was immediately arrested by ICE agents. Vedam is currently detained at an ice jail in Alexandria, Louisiana.

Vedan came to the U.S. from India with his parents when he was just nine months old. In the Philippines, at least 26 people were killed tens of thousands forced to flee their communities as typhoon Kalmagi struck central provinces with destructive winds and heavy rains. The storm triggered flash flooding that trapped residents on roofed. and swallowed up homes and vehicles. It was the 20th tropical cyclone to strike the Philippines this year. And in more climate news, the Trump administration said Saturday the U.S. will not send any high-level officials to the United Nations COP 30 climate talks in Belém, Brazil, when delegates gather later this month. Democracy Now will be broadcasting from COP30 in Belem. And those are some of the headlines. This is Democracy Now. Democracy Now.

the War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman in New York, joined by Democracy Now's Juan Gonzalez in Chicago. Hi, Juan. Hi, Amy, and welcome to all of our listeners and viewers across the country and around the world. It's Election Day here in the U.S. We begin the show looking at some of the key races. Voters in New Jersey and Virginia are casting their ballots for governor. Meanwhile, voters in California will weigh in on a new set of congressional maps backed by Governor Gavin Newsom that could give Democrats a five-seat advantage in Congress. The ballot initiative known as Prop 50 is a response to the GOP-led Texas state legislature passing congressional maps earlier this year that would enable Republicans to pick up

five additional seats in the House of Representatives. In statewide races, voters will choose three seats on Pennsylvania's Supreme Court. Legislative chambers in New Jersey and Virginia, Minnesota, Mississippi, and Washington could all potentially flip control. This comes as dozens of cities are voting on mayoral races, including Detroit, Minneapolis, and Seattle. Perhaps the closest watch mayoral race in the country is right here in New York City, where Democratic nominees are on Mamdani is running against former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo and Republican Curtis Slewa to succeed outgoing mayor Eric Adams.

Billionaire Elon Musk is urging voters to vote for Cuomo. writing on X quote, bear in mind that a vote for Curtis is really a vote for Mamdummy or whatever his name is, clearly intentionally mocking Mamdani's name. President Trump is also throwing his support behind Cuomo and has threatened to restrict federal funds for New York City if Mamdani wins. Mamdani responded Monday night. But I want to take a moment to speak about who is on the ballot tonight. Donald Trump just put out a statement encouraging New Yorkers saying they must vote for Andrew Cuomo.

We know and have known for months that Donald Trump would favor Andrew Cuomo as the mayor. They share the same donors. They share the same small vision. They share the same sense of impunity. And yet in these final days, what was rumored, what was feared has become naked and unabashed the MAGA movement's embrace of Andrew Cuomo is reflective of Donald Trump's understanding that this would be the best mayor for him. Not the best mayor for New York City, not the best mayor for New Yorkers, but the best mayor

for Donald Trump as his administration. For more, we're joined by John Nichols, executive editor of the nation, where he was previously the National Affairs correspondent, Washington, D.C. correspondent. His new pieces headlined, Bernie Sanders says a Mamdani win can transform American politics, unquote. John Nichols is the author of many books, including the rise and rise of Richard B. Cheney, unlocking the mysteries of the most powerful vice president in American history, which we'll talk about in a minute upon the death of Dick Cheney. But first, we look at the races around the country, beginning with Zoran Mandani.

You have this exclusive interview with Bernie Sanders, who says that this is the key race. Talk about what's happening in New York now with President Trump endorsing his opponent. Again, Mamdani is the Democratic nominee, won the Democratic primary, and followed by Elon Musk, endorsing Andrew Cuomo as well. Look, whether you are a Republican or a Democrat, progressive, or a conservative, a Democratic socialist, or whatever might be on the other side. So our mom-dani has captured the imagination of the country. I've traveled a lot around the U.S. in recent weeks, and when I mentioned Mom Dani in rural

towns in Wisconsin or, you know, in California, wherever, there's excitement, there's interest. People want to hear about him. They want to talk about him. And so it is not surprising that Donald Trump and Elon Musk and others have focused in on this race. This is the largest city in the United States. It is a city that, again, in many ways, captures the imagination of the country in the world. And the candidate who is leading in the polls at this point is the Democratic nominee in a very democratic city is a 34-year-old Uganda-born Muslim. democratic socialist. And so by almost any measure, this is someone who opens up new vistas

for our politics, who suggests how we might have a very different politics ideologically. And frankly, in the character and quality of communications that's related to an office, Mamdani has proven to be a brilliant communicator and someone who is able to speak to issues that his own party has failed to speak to anywhere nearly as effectively as he does. And at the center of that is a message about putting a major city and really ultimately putting the politics of the country on the side of the working class, of people who are struggling to get by economically, and clearly aligning government with those who have not had a lot of power up to this point.

So, yes, this is a huge election in New York. As Bernie Sanders said, it could well define new directions for the Democratic Party and the country. And it also would be, if Momdani wins tonight, be a blow to President Trump because President Trump has tried so hard to prevent this man from becoming mayor of New York. John, I wanted to ask you, taking a more historical perspective on this, well, I agree with you that the Mandar, Mandani campaign is really electrifying. It's not the first time that we've had. Someone who claims to be a democratic socialist running. Ferella LaGuardia was a Democratic socialist.

People forget that David Dinkins, when he ran for mayor, was a member of Democratic Socialists of America. And so these firsts have occurred previously. The question is, what would be the systemic change that could possibly come from, Mamdani capturing the New York City mayoral team. Sure, you're absolutely right, Juan. There's a lot of history, and as you and I know,

as being friends for a very long time, I've written a lot about this over the years. I come from Wisconsin, and in Misen Bayesian state of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, through much of the 20th century, had socialist party mayors, and they were very effective mayors. In fact, they looked back on with great fondness

because of how well they governed. And so one thing that we have to remember, remember is that socialists have been established in this country as effective mayors in many, many cities, in Milwaukee and other cities. And yes, there is this legacy in New York City, which Zora Mandani has embraced. He talks a lot about Fiora Liguardia. He talks a lot about others who came before him. And the shift that would occur now, what is significant is that in deciding to run for mayor about roughly a year ago, Zoran Mondani did something that I think too few political figures do. He actually analyzed what was on people's minds, what was really

worrying them, what they saw is the fundamental challenges in their lives. And he came to an argument about affordability, the simple ability to get by in what is a very expensive city. And so he went to practical moves that people could understand very easily. He didn't have to go to some big policy paper. He wants to have fast and free buses so you can get to work or get to where you need to go. He wants to freeze the rent in a city where it's becoming very, very hard to get by and very, very hard to pay for your place. He wants to have universal childcare and child education. He wants to fund education in all sorts of ways.

And he wants to go even into, you know, some more fundamental challenges of people living in some parts of New York, where we have what are described as food deserts. And he talks about the idea of opening municipally run grocery stores to make sure that people have safe and healthy food. None of these are radical proposals. These are all proposals that can practically be done in New York City. Now, there's no question. Donald Trump will seek to make that dramatically harder by holding up funds. and with a host of other initiatives, the state of New York will become a challenge. There are hoops that have to be jumped through, barriers that have to be broken down.

But Mondani has a vision for how to do this. He can do some of it as mayor. He can do some of it in collaboration with New York State. And then, ultimately, you ask about how this will work. I think that I've interviewed Momdani about this, and along with Katrina Van and Hoover, our editor at the nation. And what he is very conscious of is that he broke through the barriers within the Democratic Party because of his ability to communicate, because of his skills at reaching out to people and talking to them where they live in about issues that they really

care about. He will continue to do that as mayor. And so I think we're going to see a very different kind of mayoralty, a mayor who really does seek to rally the people of the city in a way that perhaps we haven't seen since LaGuardia was mayor. And remember, just as Zora Mamdani has mastered social media in this era, in this era, LaGuardia mastered radio and was an incredibly skilled communicator, and also somebody who's very active throughout the city. And I think anybody who's watched the current campaign knows that Mamdani has been almost unimaginably active in going to every part of the city,

showing up where people are, and doing it with an openness that I do think draws people in. So I think it's a potential to be a fall in. John, if you could just talk briefly also about two other mayoral races that are occurring today, Seattle and Minneapolis? Yes. Both of these cities have candidates who are, who've been compared with Momdani. Omar Fata in Minneapolis, Katie Wilson, in Seattle. And the thing to understand about what's happening in municipal politics across the country,

I think, is that we are seeing in our cities, in this era of Donald Trump, in this era of power politics coming out of Washington, we're seeing that our cities are often the places that are, A, targeted by Trump on many issues, but also places where there is an ability to create a different, politics, a different approach to governing. And so there are, in both Seattle and in Minneapolis, candidacies that, like in New York, challenge not just the Republican Party, as we know it, but also in many senses challenge the Democratic Party and say that the Democratic Party can be an activist party that uses government to really tip the balance in favor of the working class,

in favor of people who have been targeted by Trump and doesn't just seek to defend them, but it seeks to make their lives better. So, yes, tonight we're going to watch races across the country. And those aren't the only ones. We could go into smaller cities and other places across this country. And then there's the governor's race, John. We only have two minutes on this segment. There's the governor's races in both Virginia and New Jersey.

Yes. Both of those states are real traditional battlegrounds in an audience. year election. In each of those states, you have women running to become governor, with Democratic nominees, who are more moderate. I think that's true of Abigail Spanberger and also of Mikey Cheryl. But they have run against Trump in many senses. They have sought to suggest that if they are elected, they will battle against many of the cuts that come from the federal level. Now, in New Jersey, they have a Democratic governor now. So if the Democrat wins there, it will be continuity.

But in Virginia, they have a Republican governor. If the Republican wins, the Democrat wins in Virginia, that's flipping a major state. And I think, again, if you start to see this pattern across the country, not saying it will happen, we have to watch the results. But if you see this pattern of Democrats winning in a lot of places, that's clearly a message to Donald. Trump. And you're in San Francisco right now, John Nichols. We just have 30 seconds on Prop 50. And then, of course, we'll talk more about all these races tomorrow after the results are in. Prop 50. Sure. Yeah. Prop 50 is an effort by Gavin Newsom and Democrats in California to offset what Donald Trump did in, what pressured Texas to do, which is flip five traditionally Republican seats toward

the, or traditionally Democratic seats toward the Republicans. California is seeking to do the reverse of that. This is the beginning, not the end, of gerrymandering and redistricting wars that we're going to see all over the country. And it is evidence of the great battle for control of Congress in 2026. The one thing to, I think, take away is that all evidence in California is that Prop 50 is doing very, very well, and that voters actually get what is at stake here, that this is an opportunity to push back against Donald Trump. John Nichols is executive editor of the nation. When we come back, we'll talk with him about the death of former vice president Dick Cheney,

whom many call the most powerful vice president in U.S. history. Stay with us. Stand behind his drunken amber. Stand behind his light of love. Hear him yowl his blood is. tongue, hear I'm yellow blood in war. Do you believe in his sweet sensation? Do you believe in second chance?

Do you believe in rapture, babe? Do you believe in rapture by Thurston Moore performing at Smith College years ago? This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace Report. I'm Mimi Goodman with Juan Gonzalez. Former Vice President Dick Cheney has died at the age of 84. He was a key architect of the U.S. invasion of Iraq and the so-called U.S. war on terror after 9-11. Cheney was a leading defender of the U.S. torture program and expanding the power of the presidency and vice presidency. Just days after the 9-11 attacks, Cheney appeared on Meet the Press and said the U.S. would

have to work on what he called the dark side. We also have to work, though, sort of the dark side, if you will. We've got to spend time in the shadows and in the intelligence world. A lot of what needs to be done here will have to be done quietly without any discussion using sources and methods that are available to our intelligence agencies if we're going to be successful. Vice President Cheney would go on to push for the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003 under the false pretext of preventing Saddam Hussein from development.

weapons of mass destruction. In the case of Iraq, we have a regime that is busy enhancing its capabilities in the field of chemical and biological agents, and is, by all available evidence, speeding up its nuclear weapons program. Over the years, Dick Cheney repeatedly defended the U.S. invasion, which led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands and destabilized the Middle East. It in Iraq was exactly the right thing to do if I had it to recommend all over again. I would recommend exactly the right same course of action.

Cheney was widely accused of pushing for the U.S. invasion of Iraq to benefit his former company Halliburton, the world's second largest oil services company. In 2007, the former Federal Reserve Chair, Alan Greenspan, said, quote, I'm saddened that it's politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows the Iraq war is largely about oil, unquote. Dick Cheney also played a key role in developing the U.S. torture program and global secret detention program. In an interview in 2008, ABC's Jonathan Carl questioned Cheney about the treatment of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who was held in a secret CIA prison where he was waterboarded over a hundred times. Did you authorize the tactics that were used against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?

I was aware of the program, certainly, and involved in helping get the, the process cleared. That is, the agency in effect, came in and wanted to know what they could and couldn't do. And they talked to me as well as others to explain what they wanted to do, and I supported it. There was a period of time there three or four years ago when about half of everything we knew about al-Qaeda came from that one source. So it's been a remarkably successful effort. I think the results speak for themselves. In hindsight, do you think any of those tactics that were used against, Clay Sheikh Mohammed and others went too far? I don't.

And on KSM, one of those tactics, of course, widely reported it was waterboarding, and that seems to be a tactic we no longer use. Even that, you think, was appropriate? I do. Dick Cheney first came into the spotlight in the 70s when he served as President Ford's chief of staff. He went on to serve in Congress, where he famously voted against a resolution calling for the release of Nelson Mandela and South Africa, then served his defense secretary for George H.W. Bush and oversaw. the first Gulf War and the U.S. invasion of Panama. Later in life, Cheney became a vocal critic of Donald Trump, especially as Trump intensified his criticism of his daughter, Liz Cheney, who served as Republican Congresswoman. Dick Cheney said, quote, in our nation's 248-year history, there's never been an individual who's a greater threat to our republic, unquote.

He was talking about President Trump. We're joined now by John Nichols, Executive Editor of the Nation, author of many books. including the rise and rise of Richard B. Cheney unlocking the mysteries of the most powerful vice president in American history. John, we only have a few minutes here, but if you can talk about the significance of the man who was considered the most powerful vice president in U.S. history. But there is no question. He was the most powerful vice president in American history. That is not a debatable point. He positioned himself to be George W. Bush's vice president. Bush was struggling as a relative newcomer to the national stage and not doing all that well. And he was looking for someone with a lot of experience in government to take that

number two job. Cheney did this as a former White House staffer in the Nixon and Ford eras as a longtime congressman, as a former Secretary of Defense, and someone who himself, he had tried to be a presidential candidate, but never gotten much traction. So Cheney, wanted to be at the center of power. Bush accepted him and brought him in. Because of his immense experience, Cheney asserted himself in all sorts of ways, but especially on foreign policy. And in the aftermath of 9-11, there is simply no question that Dick Cheney sought to put the United States in position to make huge moves in the Middle East, military moves, and ultimately to do an invasion. and what became essentially an occupation of Iraq.

That was done on the basis of claims that were unfounded and proved to be incredibly controversial, even at the time that faced a great deal of protests. And I think this is the thing to understand. Dick Cheney, if you see him in the long arc of his career, is someone who really made the modern Republican Party what it is, a party that sought power at this intersection of economic power and political power and sought to make moves that were often, you know, very beneficial to the people who had

that power, but very destructive, very challenging to the trajectory of the world. I understand how at the end of his career, Dick Cheney was hypercritical of Donald Trump. that he saw in Donald Trump, a leader who was acting in ways that were, and moving in ways that were incredibly destructive and incredibly dangerous. But it is important to understand that before he came to that point, Dick Cheney was seen in much the same way. And it was because both as a public face of his party and the administration he was in, but also as a behind-the-scenes operator, he was.

someone who, I think a great many Americans came to recognize as an individual who wanted to exercise power in ways that were clearly beneficial to his political circle, to his economic allies, but that really did put the United States in some terrible places diplomatically and politically around the world. And I would, one last thing I would say is, that Dick Cheney was also someone who operated very aggressively as vice president and in other positions at the domestic level. And he was a very ardent advocate for massive tax cuts for the rich, et cetera. And so it is very hard to delink Dick Cheney, a very fascinating, very complex man from the evolution of the Republican Party that he ultimately came to criticize. And John, I want to ask you specifically about the war in Iraq.

Cheney, while he was apart along with Don Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz of the project for the New American Century, sought regime change for Iraq as early as 1998, years before they actually came up with this excuse for invading Iraq. Well, remember that Dick Cheney had been Secretary of Defense under George H.W. Bush and had been a advocate for action against Iraq back in 1990, 1991. And so you can really trace with Cheney something, you know, a focus on Iraq, some would say an obsession, that that was very intense and that often took, put him at odds with people who said, look, the real problem is here.

The real challenge is elsewhere. And one of the things about Dick Cheney was that when he became. fixated on something. He didn't let go. And he was very willing to keep pressing, even if his policies were exceptionally unpopular. And I think that ultimately, the invasion of Iraq and what came after proved to be immensely unpopular. The American people recognized that this was something that was developed and organized in the White House, but not based on anywhere near the level of consultation or the level of international engagement and reflection that was needed. And so Cheney had a reputation as, you know, this major player, particularly on the global

stage. And yet, often if you look back on it, there were moves that he made, steps that he organized, step city push for, that proved. to be disastrous and that proved to be wrong. And so, again, I think Cheney's an incredibly complex man. And I think he is fascinating. I think he definitely committed himself to a life of public service. There is no question that. And yet, in that public service, even going back to the 1970s, you see an effort or willingness to err on the side of secrecy, on the side of power politics, to not consult Congress, to actually insult Congress, and to concentrate power in the

presidency, in the White House to do the things that he and his allies wanted to do. And then, yes, as we note, he then became a very stark critic of Donald Trump for using that concentrated power, ultimately to force his own daughter, Cheney's own daughter, from a position of leadership in the House of Representatives. And I do think that, again, if we look at where the Republican Party is today and how it sees the presidency as almost an unlimited base of power and a base of power to make not just political moves but economic moves, I think you have to recognize Cheney as someone who created that

and who played an absolutely central role in telling Republicans that if you get power, you should do what you want to do. John Nichols, I want to thank you for being with us, Executive Editor of the Nation, author of many books, including The Rise and Rise of Richard B. Cheney, unlocking the mysteries of the most powerful vice president in American history. Coming up, we speak to the Pulitzer Prize-winning reporters,

Carol Lenig and Aaron Davis, about their blockbuster new book out today, Injustice, how politics and fear vanquished America's Justice Department. with us. This is This is This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org.

I'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonson. We spend the rest of the hour with two Pulitzer Prize winning reporters who have a blockbuster new book out today. It's called Injustice, how politics and fear vanquished America's Justice Department. Carol Lennig and Aaron Davis join us now in our New York studio. Carol is a longtime investigative reporter who worked at the Washington Post from 2000 to, well, just recently this year, a quarter of a century, five-time Pulitzer Prize winner. Aaron Davis is an investigative reporter with the Washington Post, who's twice won the Pulitzer Prize. We welcome you both to Democracy Now. You write in the introduction, quote, the Department of Justice collided violently with Donald Trump and his rise to power.

And for the first time in history, our nation's rule of law was brought to the precipice of collapse, unquote. If you can talk about how the Department of Justice's core mission unraveled under Trump, I mean, the the title of your book is injustice. You know, Amy, thanks for having us first off. It is amazing to both Aaron and me, as we went through this process of reporting, how much more damaging Donald Trump's first presidency was to the core of the Justice Department. People there were individually targeted by a president, something that had never happened before. They were humiliated. Their careers were tarnished.

their careers were ruined. They were put under investigation by Republicans at Donald Trump's behest. The targeting left scars that weakened the resolve. His brand of bare-knuckles kind of attacks changed the trajectory of what the Justice Department would do when Joe Biden ultimately took office. One of the stories, the amazing stories that you tell are about this. reporting into Trump's relationship with the Egyptian government early on and $10 million that was supposedly being funneled or attempted to be funneled by Egyptian president

Abdo Fatal Sisi to Trump. Could you talk about that and how the Justice Department tried to investigate that? You know, I'd like Aaron to do it. He would be great for this. And Aaron, as you do it, why don't we go back just a few weeks ago to the signing of the so-called ceasefire in Sharmel Shake. There was President Trump. There was the Egyptian President Al-Sisi. And this is what Trump said. It was a reason we chose Egypt because you were very helpful and very, very helpful.

Everybody wanted to have this, but we really thought it was appropriate. And you are a great leader. You have very little crime. You have problems that other countries don't have. and, of course, nothing's perfect, but the job you do is amazing, and I want to thank you. Another one, he's been my friend right from the beginning during the campaign against Crooked Hillary Clinton. Have you heard of her? So he ends with Crooked Hillary.

Why is he bringing her up as they're signing this so-called ceasefire and Charmel Sheik? Talk about what you exposed. Well, I did see some people and take note of that comment just a few weeks ago. To Carol's point where we started here a minute ago, you know, we did look. look at the Department of Justice, and, like, why did the investigations in the Trump go so slowly when he got to January 6th? And if you back up, you do realize that, you know, things happened, a lot of things happened that we knew inside the Justice Department. There are things we didn't know that happened inside the Justice Department that really made people feel reticent to go after

Trump again and to really look hard at him. And one of them was this investigation into Egypt and whether Donald Trump had taken a foreign campaign contribution from the government of Egypt, specifically one, that the U.S. intelligence had information from an informant that it was directed specifically by the president of Egypt, Phil Fatal Sisi, in the run-up to the first election when he was running against Hillary Clinton. When he was out of money, Trump, and his own campaign folks were saying, you've got to put your own money into this. At a very critical moment. It's hard to remember, but Donald Trump was forecasted to lose that election against Hillary Clinton. It was a big surprise back in 2016.

he was reticent to put in any more money into his own campaign. They could barely fund the rest of the campaign commercials that they had already promised to pay for. And so, you know, suddenly there's this largest contribution to Donald Trump's campaign ever by himself, $10 million. And that just happens to be, rate at the exact same time that the U.S. intelligence is hearing from an informant that LCC is sending $10 million to Trump.

And so those comments combined with some... In two bags that weigh 200 pounds, almost the entire... I did bury the lead, yes. The Egyptian government, it was almost all the U.S. currency they had. So our reporting is that, in fact, yes, there was $10 million. It wasn't just that they had informants saying it. The Mueller investigation had found that, in fact, there were two bags weighing some 200 pounds total of U.S. $100,000. bills that left a bank in Egypt near the Cairo airport from an account that was controlled

by the government secret service, essentially. And so they tried to track that back and see if that ever came to Trump. But the Mueller investigation was hesitant to look directly into Trump's bank account, specifically after he had gone into the White House. And then that continued when the other political appointees also said, we don't really need to go there. Is that really predicate for this investigation, and they allowed that Egypt investigation to die a slow death inside the Department of Justice. Even at the point of when one of new Trump's appointees comes in, they have this briefing we recount in the book, and here's what we've got. We've got $10 million coming out of this bank account, and the acting U.S. attorney says in D.C., who outside this room knows about this

investigation? And everybody walks out of the meeting saying, well, that's the end of that. They're really not going to go after Trump and look at this seriously. Could you talk as well, Aaron, about the federal judge's reactions when Bill Barr was Attorney General and there were investigations of Roger Stone and Michael Flynn? Again, these were, you know, cases where prosecutors and agents who worked these, who felt these cases were, you know, really locked down. I mean, in Flynn's case, you had someone who admitted twice to the FBI, having lied to investigators with Stone. They had, you know, evidence that he'd, you know, tried to extort it, you know,

push one of the witnesses in the case not to testify. And there, in that case, prosecutors from political appointees from main justice working under Bill Barr had said, we're going to take this a different direction. We're going to not have the sentencing recommendation as many years, nine years as you've looked at and assigned as. is appropriate under the federal sentencing guidelines, that's too much. And, you know, some of this came out in the open, but there were the conversations inside the Department of Justice, inside the U.S. Attorney's Office, where you could really

feel the pressure brought the bear on these line attorneys. In the Flynn case, there's even an episode that's new to the book where one of the prosecutor, when they are ultimately dropping the case against Flynn, the prosecutors are brought in and said, you sign this document that is filing for court that says, you know, You didn't, you know, we're going to drop the case that there's no reason to investigate it. And in that filing were lines that said, and the U.S. government says you've done no wrongdoing and trying to seek out this prosecution of Flynn. Well, it was kind of a carrot.

And the stick later comes when they decide they're not going to sign it. And the government under bar, the political appointees, take out those lines from the filing. And so then that exposes the prosecutors for the government to lawsuits, to internal investigations of whether they had acted appropriately and trying to seek a conviction of Michael Flynn. You know, you asked about the judge's reaction, though, and that's, I love Aaron's summary, but the judge's reaction in the bench at the time was horror that Bill Barr was Donald Trump's AG was forcing the prosecutors to do something different than what they would normally do. And they were furious, and the federal judge, who was the chief judge of that court, told the acting U.S. attorney that had been inserted by Donald, forgive me, inserted by Bill Barr to basically kill the Flynn case and to scale back the Roger Stone sentencing, the federal judge, we learned, had a meeting with that acting U.S. attorney and said, I'm sorry, we can no longer support you to continue as the chief prosecutor for the land. can't support you. My bench can't support you. What you've done here is just beyond the pale. And that's never been reported. Eventually, that acting U.S. attorney retreated and basically gave up the job because there was no legal way for them to stay. If you can talk about January 6th,

if you can talk about what happened and didn't happen with the investigation within the Justice Department under Merrick Garland and how the January 6th investigative committee and Congress, Congress forced his hand. Explain what was missed and not missed, and even the day before January 6th. Thank you, Amy. That's so important in this sort of tragedy in three acts. Our book, Injustice is essentially three presidencies and how DOJ was rocked and reeling from these three experiences. In December of 2020, a little-known investigative arm of the National Art archives. An investigator there named Welleska McClellan is learning that fake elector certificates appear to be coordinated that a series of swing states, they had Republicans who signed these

fraudulent documents. And she's wondering, isn't this a crime? Isn't this a basic mail fraud crime? People pretending that Donald Trump won the election in their state. And she urges the Department of Justice to look at this. She reaches out to some prosecutors. they know, and she gets brushed back. January 8th, she's told, yeah, we're not going to look into it. Now, fair, let's be fair, prosecutors in D.C. at that moment are completely drowning in what the Capitol riot. They know that they have thousands of people. They have to investigate for violent attacks on police officers with batons, with fire extinguishers, with flagpoles. And so you can sort of see why they take a pass. But in December,

of 2020, there is a federal investigator saying, I think there's a crime here. Attorney General Merrick Garland's office believes and he believes they need to turn the page from Donald Trump and not look at this top of the top of the conspiracy. Let's look at the little rioters and see if it builds. Let's see where that leads. Let's follow those facts. But then, to your question, Amy, when the House Select Committee begins in the fall, basically October of 2021, looking into this. It's like a little U.S. Attorney's Office, a little engine that could, and they go crazy trying to uncover these facts. I say crazy because they worked at an insane pace that I don't think many prosecutors could work at,

depositions all day long, prepping for them. Long story short, and what people need to know is that team's revelations ultimately embarrass and press the Department of Justice a full 12 months later to open a grand jury investigation into the fake electors and the conspiracy by Donald Trump and his campaign to interfere in that election. And Carol, you talk about January 6th itself. Your narrative puts the readers sort of at the FBI command center as agents are even reporting guns in the crowd and how the FBI and the Justice Department reacted in those hours.

Yeah, it's a really, Aaron and I spent a lot of our lives writing a Pulitzer Prize winning series about January 6th and what happened before those days. What kind of warnings did the FBI and law enforcement and the White House have? But I'm so glad you asked the question because even we were taken aback by how on a back foot the FBI was about the multiple alerts and warnings they were getting. of a domestic terror attack in the planning stages. We have internal emails now and exchanges and dialogue within the FBI where they are receiving warnings. Guys are talking about coming here with guns. People are coming and talking about where they can hide their guns and how they can stage them and not have them withdrawn from them or not

caught with them. The degree to which the FBI was, again, reticent to believe and reticent to investigate all of the clues of a domestic terror attack are sort of gobsmacking. And it's not entirely shocking because they were dealing with a president at the time, Donald Trump, who was trying to fire their FBI director, Chris Ray, and who had just days before the attack on the Capitol on January 3rd tried to attempt a coup of his own Department of justice and replace his acting attorney general on January 3rd with one who would do his bidding, who would take on his political errand and try to interfere in the election and throw doubt into Georgia's election. People don't even remember all the things that happened. But that night,

January 3rd, Donald Trump threatened to remove Jeffrey Rosen, install him with Jeffrey Clark, who was saying he would get the election tossed in Georgia, and, you know, and, you use the Department of Justice levers to do it. Something that's never happened. We only have a minute to go. I want to go from Aaron to Carol. What shocked you most? Just the degree, I think, to which, you know, as Carol said it,

there was, you know, this moment in time when investigators are saying, why aren't you, one of the prosecutors saying, why aren't you FBI moving faster and looking at this? And one of the guys inside the FBI says, you have to realize they're stepping over the bodies of crossfire hurricane. You know, they still are so reluctant to go at Trump and look at this investigation, goes directly at him because of what has happened in that first Trump term. And we really found there was a continuum over these 10 years that brought, you know, really impacted the time and how quickly they would investigate Trump. And Carol.

I think the most shocking thing, it's hard to put it in one word. But I think the most shocking thing was how many brave, stubbornly brave people there were who tried to do the right thing and could not succeed in this institution that is built on doing the right thing without fear or favor. We've been speaking with Carol Lenig and Aaron C. Davis, both Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative reporters. Their new book is out today. It's Injustice, How Politics and Fear Vanquished America's Justice Department. That does it for our show. I'll be in St. Louis on Friday. Speaking in the Q&A after the film, steal this story, please.

Plays in two theaters in St. Louis. Check our website at DemocracyNow.org. I'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez for another edition of Democracy Now. Thank you.