Democracy Now! Audio - Democracy Now! 2025-11-20 Thursday

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

Headlines for November 20, 2025; Climate Crisis Displaces 250 Million Over a Decade While U.S. & Other Polluting Nations Close Borders; Brazilian Indigenous Minister Sônia Guajajara on Fossil Fuel Phaseout, Bolsonaro’s Conviction & More; The Race to Save the Amazon: Top Brazilian Scientist Says Rainforest Is at “Tipping Point”

From Belan, Brazil, the gateway to the Amazon, we're at COP 30, the UN Climate Summit. This is Democracy Now. I leave to Brasilia, certain that my number. negotiators will achieve the best result that a cop can ever offer to planet Earth. As climate negotiations continue here in Belém, Brazil, we'll speak to Sonja Guajajara, Brazil's first indigenous peoples minister. We are expecting the recognition of indigenous territories and the demarcation of these territories as a climate policy.

one of the most efficient solutions to confront the climate crisis. We will also look at how climate disasters have displaced 250 million people over the past decade. That's nearly 70,000 people a day. Then, is the Amazon rainforest being pushed beyond the tipping point? We'll speak with world-renowned Brazilian climatologist, Carlos Nobre. All that and more, coming up. Welcome to Democracy Now. Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. Israel's militaries killed at least 32 Palestinians in a wave of attacks that once again violated the October ceasefire.

with Hamas. Among the dead are at least 10 people, including an entire family, killed when Israel bombed a building, sheltering, displaced Palestinians in Gaza's city, Zaytun neighborhood. Israel said it launched the attacks after its soldiers came under fire. Hamas rejected the claim and noted Israel said none of its troops were wounded in the alleged attack. Inchan Yunus, family and friends held funerals earlier today for victims of Israeli attacks on southern Gaza. They say there's a ceasefire. Where is this ceasefire they're talking about? Where are the guarantors of the ceasefire?

Every day, 10, 15, 20 martyrs die. We wake up to martyrs and we go to sleep to martyrs. And they say there's a ceasefire. Unfortunately, there is no ceasefire. According to Al Jazeera, Israel's violated the ceasefire agreement, at least 393 times since October 10th. Meanwhile, the charity saved the children reports explosive weapons caused a record number of child deaths and injuries last year

when nearly 12,000 children were killed or wounded in conflicts worldwide. It's the highest toll since records began in 2006, driven largely by Israel's more than two-year assault on Gaza, where more than 20,000 children have been killed an average of one child, per hour dead since October 2023. Syria's government's denounced a visit by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to Syrian territory occupied for months by Israeli forces. The territory extends Israel's grip on the occupied Golan Heights.

Syria's UN ambassador called Netanyahu's visit with Israeli soldiers a, quote, provocative tour, which epitomizes Israel's ongoing aggression against Syria and its people, unquote. Meanwhile, an investigation by the Guardians found Israeli forces used cluster munitions that are widely banned under international law during its recent 13-month war in Lebanon. Photos published by the Guardian show remnants of two different types of Israeli cluster munitions found in three areas of southern Lebanon left devastated by Israeli attacks that have killed almost 4,000 people. The weapons are banned by 124 states that sign the Convention on Cluster Munitions, though Israel and the United States are not signatories. Russia launched a wave of missile and drone attacks on Ukraine Wednesday that killed at least 26 people, including three children, 93 others were wounded in the attacks, many of which targeted the western city of Turnipil,

where missiles struck residential high-rise buildings. This is Oksana Cobel, the mother of a man who disappeared behind a wall of flames, triggered by the Russian stripes. My son is still in the apartment on the ninth floor. I talked to him before the explosions. That's it. He said, mom, everything will be fine. Don't worry.

After this, I tried calling and couldn't reach him. I still know nothing. Russia's latest attacks came as Axios reported U.S. and Russian officials quietly drafted a plan to end the war in Ukraine that would see Kiev agree. to surrender territory to Russia while cutting the size of Ukraine's armed forces. European officials pushed back against the plan with France's foreign minister declaring, quote, peace cannot be a capitulation. Meanwhile, Ukrainian lawmakers have fired two government ministers accused of taking part

in a $100 million kickback scheme within the state-owned nuclear power company. President Trump signed a bill Wednesday compelling the Justice Department to release files from investigation into the late convicted sex offender, Jeffrey Epstein. This comes after a near-unanimous vote in the House and Senate ordering the DOJ to release the Epstein files. Attorney General Pam Bondi confirmed the DOJ will release the files within 30 days, but hinted the Justice Department may cite ongoing investigations or other reasons to hold back material. On Wednesday, A Republican effort to censure the Democratic delegate from the Virgin Islands, Stacey Plaskett, failed on the House floor. Documents from Epstein's estate released last week show Plaskett was exchanging text with Epstein during a 2019 congressional hearing.

Meanwhile, former Harvard president, former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers, announced he's stepping down from commitments at Harvard and from the board of OpenAI after documents showed he continued to stay in touch with Jeffrey Epstein long after Epstein's 2008 sex trafficking conviction. Emails show Summers called Epstein his wingman and asked for advice on pursuing a sexual relationship with a much younger woman he called his mentee. Harvard has opened an investigation into summer's actions. Hundreds of protesters took to the streets of Charlotte, North Carolina Wednesday as Border Patrol agents continued to target Latinx communities

with over 250 immigrants reportedly arrested in recent days. This is Renee Tillett, a resident of Fort Mill, South Carolina, who joined the protests. I feel it's important that we're out here, not sitting at home on our butts, quiet about what's going on. If you're not seeing something and saying something, you're complicit. I do not want to be complicit. What's going on here is illegal. It's warrantless, and people are getting picked up without proper identification, without warrants.

And that is wrong. Doesn't matter who you are. That is wrong. We need to support our immigrants. We love our immigrants here in Charlotte. This week, the Border Patrol expanded its North Carolina operations to include the heavily Democratic Research Triangle Region, which includes Raleigh-Durham and Chapel Hill. Meanwhile, in Chicago, new data reported by the Chicago Tribune finds 97% of immigrants detained

in the Trump administration's Operation Midway Blitz had no criminal conviction, according to federal court records. The Justice Department admitted Wednesday, members of a grand jury, never voted on the final criminal indictment against former FBI Director James. Comey. The admission came as a federal judge in Virginia, grilled Trump's handpicked interim U.S. attorney, Lindsey Halligan, his former private attorney, over her procedural missteps, which many legal scholars say could result in her losing her bar license. Comey's lawyers have asked the court to dismiss his case on the grounds he's the target of a

vindictive prosecution led by President Trump. In Florida, a man who joined the January 6th, 2021 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol has been arrested on multiple charges that he sexually abused children. Forty-40-year-old Andrew Paul Johnson pleaded not guilty to charges he molested a child as young as 11 years old. He joins a growing number of Capitol rioters who face new legal problems after they were pardoned by President Trump on Trump's first day back in office. The House of Representatives voted unanimously Wednesday to rescind a provision of the recently past spending bill that would allow eight Republican senators to personally sue the government for up to a million dollars each if their phone records were seized as part of special counsel

Jack Smith's investigation into the January 6th attack. Maryland Democrat Congress member Jamie Raskin called the measure one of the most blatantly corrupt provisions for political self-dealing and the plunder of public resources ever proposed in Congress, unquote. It's not clear whether the bill to repeal the language will get a vote in the Senate. President Trump said to meet with New York City mayor-elect Zoran Mamdani at the White House Friday. The Trump announced the meeting in a post on social media calling Mamdani a communist. During the mayoral campaign, Trump had backed Mamdani's opponent the disgrace former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo and repeatedly taunted Mamdani and threatened

to deport him. Mamdani was born in Uganda and is a naturalized U.S. citizen. Mamdani's team had reportedly reached out to President Trump for the meeting. Here in Berlin, Brazil, at COP 30, a big issue emerging in the climate negotiations is whether countries will agree to a roadmap to transition away from fossil fuels. Now more than 80 countries, including Germany, Kenya, and Britain are backing the proposal, but that's less than half of all countries attending the summit. This is Harjit Singh, a member of the Fossil Fuel Treaty Initiative, who joined protests here at COP 30 on Wednesday.

We want this particular COP 30 to deliver a roadmap on fossil fuel phase out, to have a just transition plan so that we can all move away from fossil fuels and go more and more towards renewable energy. But the fossil fuel lobbies are not allowing us to do that. Developed countries who are responsible for the climate crisis, they are not providing money. And without climate finance, we cannot protect our people. We cannot move away from fossil fuels. Meanwhile, Turkey has emerged as the host of next year's COP31 climate summit, which will be held in the Mediterranean port city of Antalya, while Australia is set to lead the conference's negotiations.

We'll have more from the UN Climate Summit here in Berlin, Brazil, after headlines. And the Trump administration's proposing to significantly weaken protections under the Endangered Species Act with new rules that would allow for more oil drilling, and mining and habitats for endangered species in the U.S. One of the proposed rules would enable the government to consider economic factors before deciding whether to list a species as endangered. Another rule would reduce the requirements for other federal agencies to consult with wildlife agencies on whether their actions could harm critical habitats. Jane Davenport, a senior attorney at Defenders of Wildlife,

said the new rules could, quote, accelerate the extinction crisis we face to day, unquote. An investigation by the Montana Free Press found the Endangered Species Act has prevented 291 species from going extinct since it was passed in 1973. And those are some of the headlines. This is Democracy Now. Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace report, we're broadcasting from the UN Climate Summit, COP 30, in the Brazilian city of Belang, the gateway to the Amazon. I'm Amy Goodman. And I'm Namesh. Welcome to our listeners and viewers across the country and around the world. We begin today's show with rising calls by the United Nations to enact stronger protections

for refugees and migrants forcibly displaced by climate disasters. In a new report, the UN's High Commissioner for Refugees estimates about 250 million people, predominantly in the global south, have been forced from their homes in the last decade. due to deadly droughts, storms, floods, and extreme heat. That's more than 67,000 displacements a day. Many of these populations have faced repeated displacement due to war and extreme poverty, with UN experts saying three in four of those who've been uprooted now live in countries where communities are vulnerable to, quote,

high to extreme exposure to climate-related dangers. In countries like Chad, refugee camps are likely to be, become uninhabitable by 2050 as extreme weather worsens, according to the UN. This comes as wealthier global North nations, which are disproportionately responsible for the climate crisis, have intensified their crackdown on migrants and climate refugees fleeing compounding humanitarian crises. At the U.S.-Mexico border, many of these migrants come from regions devastated by the climate crisis and destructive industries, including mining, driven by foreign powers.

On Wednesday, Democracy now spoke to Edwin Josue Costiano-Lopez, Guatemala's Vice Minister of Natural Resources and Climate Change, about Guatemala's role in ensuring the United States respects the human rights of migrant communities. It is definitely a very complex situation, and we are just trying to work as much as possible with the U.S. government to make sure that they treat our citizens in the best way possible. It is difficult because they are, of course, interested in making sure that no more people go to the U.S., but we need to find a midway pollution. We need to make sure that our people have the opportunity that they need.

Many of these migrants are probably related to climate issues, but, of course, the main issue always poverty, lack of opportunity, and climate change is basically exacerbated this problem. That was Guatemala's Vice Minister of Natural Resources and Climate Change, speaking to Democracy Now's Maria Inaz Tarasena. For more, we're joined by Nikki Rice, director of the Climate and Energy Program at the Center for International Environmental Law. We want to talk about climate refugees around the world, but first, you are a leader in these negotiations.

and understanding what's going on, if you can explain what are the sticking points at this point. It's unusual that the president of the country, President Lula, has come back to the climate summit at this early point. What are they negotiating over? And what is stopping them from moving forward? People may be shocked that at a climate summit, some of the countries are raising the issue of trans people. What does that have to do with climate change? But give us a broad overview. Sure.

Well, thank you so much for having me and thank you generally for your commitment to independent journalism, which is so critical in this moment. I'd say in the last 24 hours, we've seen an intensification of negotiations between states, largely behind closed doors around what are really the big ticket items here. And arguably the big ticket items at every cop, finance, fossil fuels, and forests. So this is about the drivers of the climate crisis and the resources and finance needed to not only address mitigation of those drivers, but to respond to adaptation needs, to help communities that are suffering disproportionately from this crisis and to deliver

reparation for loss and damage. So those issues are front and center and are highly contentious because this is a justice package that's being negotiated here, a just transition, can't move forward without adequate financing from public sources, without creating new debt for the countries that are really on the front lines of this crisis. So the big polluters need to phase out and pay up. And those are some of the issues. that are at the center of the debates now. And the fact that this issue of the definition of men and women is being raised at a climate summit, is that just being thrown in to really muck up the works and not arrive at a final resolution?

We've seen no end to the kind of procedural tactics that some countries will use to really derail the talks and avoid a phase out of the fossil fuel era, to avoid responsibility for the contribution of large polluters to and the biggest possible producers to this crisis. And we're seeing the weaponization of issues, attacks on human rights, including on the very notion of gender, pushback on references to law and legal obligation that are really shocking, but are part and parcel of a global trend towards regression away from the basic dignity and respect for human rights of communities around the world, including of indigenous peoples who we've seen in full force here at this cop in the Amazon. Well, Nikki, as you mentioned, one of the key issues here, as indeed at every cop, is of fossil fuels.

And now there's been a push by more than 80 countries to formulate a roadmap to phase out fossil fuels. The countries include Germany, the UK, Sweden, Ireland, and Kenya. Of course, Saudi Arabia and Russia have constantly consistently, consistently over the years objected to coming up with such a roadmap, and the U.S. is simply absent. So if you could comment on that, the absence of the U.S. and what this push means by more than 80 countries. Sure. Well, I think the fact that we see 80 countries speaking out about the need for a roadmap away from fossil fuels is a testament to the clarity of the science, the law, and the effectiveness of political pressure and the movement for climate justice. This issue is front and center

and undeniably, we cannot solve the climate crisis without ending the fossil fuel era, without tackling its root causes. So we see countries making those statements, but we need to go beyond political declarations. And that's why it's so important that we have leadership from countries like Colombia, a producing country, fossil fuel producer in the global south, that's committed now to hosting the first international conference on fossil fuel phase out outside of these halls, precisely because we see this continued procedural obstructionism from those countries that have a vested interest in the current status quo of fossil fuel dependence. We've seen them pull out all the procedural stops to really derail the talks here, as you've said. And, of course, it's Brazil.

It's taking place in Brazil, another oil-rich country. And the significance of that and what the president, Lula, both Lula and Petro, are targets of President Trump. what Lula is committed to right now, what he's willing to do and whatnot? It's a great point because we saw just weeks before this cop opened that there was an approval of new licenses for offshore oil and gas at the mouth of the Amazon right offshore. And so there are contradictions here. Unless we halt oil and gas extraction, we can't fight this crisis.

But we see leadership from countries like Colombia and others that are committed to pursuing real concrete action, not just declarations, here, but actually taking steps to phase out 1.5, in line with equity, beginning by halcing expansion of fossil fuels and charting a pathway that provides resources to bring the rest of the world along. I mean, I guess the crucial question is when countries as powerful and indeed the largest historic emitter, the United States, are absent, on top of which the world's largest oil exporter, Saudi Arabia, and the largest present omitter, China. If these countries aren't willing to go in and agree to what the terms are of negotiating a roadmap,

it's not even a final document, a roadmap to the phasing out of fossil fuels, what incentive do other countries have to sign on? Well, countries have an incentive because the future is not fossil. They know that, like, Colombia, as a fossil fuel-producing country, recognizes that its own economic interests and of its people are not, don't lie with fossil fuels. And so they have options to go outside of this process where we see the same obstructionist countries blocking progress decade after decade. And so that's why they're hosting a conference and working behind initiatives like the

fossil fuel nonproliferation treaty, a fossil fuel treaty that could actually bring a coalition of the willing countries together to start and build from there because actually transitioning away from fossil fuels and taking the lead is in the benefit of those countries and their populations. It's actually an upside. Let's talk about climate refugees. This is your specialty. Talk about the crisis in the world today, the hundreds of millions of people who are fleeing their countries because of a climate-related issue. And the countries they're fleeing too, much more responsible for climate change, bringing down the gates. Yes. I mean, I think the statistics on the numbers of people who are being displaced by climate-driven disaster are one of the most visible and visceral reminders of the reality and severity of the climate crisis.

And the fact that this is about, this is not abstract. This is about real lives. It's about survival. It's about human rights and dignity. And ultimately about justice. So this is also a reminder of two things. One, that we cannot tackle climate change. without addressing its root causes and that we absolutely need to provide finance to those countries where they're suffering disproportionately the impacts of climate change but have not contributed to it. So developed countries need to pay up, get that adaptation finance to those countries and support communities to build resilience and stay in their homes. And when they do have to migrate due to floods, droughts, extreme weather, heat waves, that they are received with dignity and their human rights are respected. That is utterly critical and the law requires it.

The International Court of Justice, the highest court in the world, has pronounced that. The principle of non-reflemaud applies. That means that countries cannot send people back to places where they would be at grave risk of danger, including from climate harm. So this is a reminder that what we don't need is a militarized response. We know that climate impacts compound the stressors and impact. from conflict and other violent crises. And instead of a closing of ranks,

we need actually a stepping up of respect for rights and finance to the country so that they can build their resilience to resist the impacts of climate change around the world. And in fact, this report only, is that correct, speaks about refugees as opposed to internally displaced people, people displaced within their own borders, which I imagine would be a larger number.

It's my understanding that the bulk of these, climate-induced migrants are actually internally displaced. And so that the impacts, it's in many ways a myth that the impacts are falling first and foremost on the developed world because actually the bulk of this migration is happening within countries and between developing countries that are already facing many stressors, including from conflicts and resource constraints. So we need to step up the commitments to supporting those who are only going to grow a number as the climate crisis worsens unless there is concrete action here to address the

root causes, fossil fuels, deforestation. We need to phase them out, to stop cutting trees down, and to build up finance commitments in concrete ways to tackle this at the source. Otherwise, we're just going to see more devastation and damage. So, Nikki, before we conclude just on another topic, the landmark decision taken by the International Court of Justice in July, the obligations of states under international law on the question of climate change. This is the first cup after a historic decision, as you say, by the world's highest court on what country's climate obligations are, that lays to rest any argument that the biggest polluters don't have a legal obligation.

Climate action is not an opinion. It's a legal obligation that countries have a duty under multiple sources of law, not just these climate conventions, but customary law, human rights law, to prevent climate harm and to step up action to protect human rights in the face of climate impacts. And that that law is the yardstick for progress here, not what they promised last year or the year before, they will be measured against those legal obligations. And we're seeing that come into the set a new benchmark for these talks. It's high time to end the accountability gap. The ambition gap is not just about stepping up promises and pledges, but committing to action

in line with law and science. Nikki Reich is director of the Climate and Energy Program at the Center for International Environmental Law. Thanks so much, Nikki, for joining us. Coming up as climate negotiations continue here in Berlin, Brazil, we speak to Sonja Guajajara, Brazil's first indigenous peoples minister. Stay with us. It's coming. Patience is that the tempo that gets, the time that flotting in the air, the time that's flotan in the air,

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Lima, performed by the end up in the world, and so you know what I'm Lama, performed by Maku sound system at our Democracy Now studio. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. I'm Amy Goodman. We're broadcasting from the UN Climate Summit. That's COP 30 in the Brazilian city of Belém, the gateway to the Amazon. On Wednesday, I sat down with Brazil's first minister of indigenous peoples, Sonia Guajajadha. Democracy Now last spoke to her in 2020.

23, when the UAE hosted the climate talks in Dubai, we're now in her home country. We're here with Brazil's first minister of indigenous peoples, lifelong leader of the Brazilian indigenous rights movement, a member of the Guajajada community, whose traditional homeland since in the northeast of Brazil. It was established the Minister of Indigenous Peoples under President Lula in 2023. Today, the minister, Minister Guadujada, is here in Belang, and we're in the last days of this conference. It's an honor to speak to you again. Minister Guadujada, what are you hoping to get out of COP 30? I think we got an important result

There is the biggest participation of indigenous peoples in whole COP history Because participation is already an important result to guarantee protagonist and advocacy But now for the second week in this final phase, we are expecting the recognition of indigenous territories and the demarcation of these territories as a climate policy, one of the most efficient solutions to confront the climate crisis. On Friday, indigenous people, like yourself, stop the climate summit, saying that,

their rights weren't being respected. They had a flotilla. They also just blockaded the entrance to COP 30. What were your thoughts about that? It was important this COPP happened here in Brazil. This is why it was important that this conference happened here in Brazil

in the Amazon after being realized in organizing three countries that did not allow democratic manifestation and Brazil as a democratic country understand that this important social society

can and should protest and we were able to guarantee their participation also inside of the COP we guarantee the participation in the blue zone of 400 indigenous representatives chosen by its own organization

so the indigenous movement inside the COP, it is represented. But as COP is also not only the Blue Zone, we also have indigenous representatives participate in all the other spaces, such as the Green Zone. We have a space called the Circles People, where we have a daily program.

We also have the COP Village, AldaCorp, that received 3,500 indigenous peoples lodged there, and we also have programming there for that. So we estimate that at least 5,000 indigenous peoples were in the city from all over the world participating in all of these spaces and also in the People's Summit. So it is here out loud that every people can bring their own demands

and they can protest since they respect also the rules of the United Nations. So there are more indigenous people, almost 1,000 registered at this cop than there have ever been. But there are also over 1,600 fossil fuel lobbyists. What effect does that have? So this is exactly one of the biggest motivation that we had to try to guarantee the highest number of indigenous peoples here. When we were in Dubai, we were celebrating 300,000.

50 people in the blue zone, but in the end, we had like one indigenous for seven fossil fuel and mining lobbyists. So we were trying to, we were working harder to try to overcome

the Dubai numbers so that we're more, we have one indigenous to each two lobbyists of the fossil fuel and mining. So this distance is this gap is getting smaller. So we would like to overcome this and be the biggest participation in them. It's not clear if it's as a result of the protests, but in the last few days,

Brazil has recognized the indigenous land rights in a way that it hadn't before. Do you think that is because of the protests that took place last week? This Entregue is a result of a great articulation of the

Ministry of this announcement is the result of hard work and engagement of the Ministry of

Indigenous peoples and the Funei the indigenous agents so that we can come here with concrete

results to show besides the lands demarcation entitling we also announced

the commitment to protect and title 63 million hectares in their commitment intergovernmental land commitment and from the 63 59 million hectares are lands that will be protected

or title by the Ministry of Illiginal peoples but we also have more far from the Ministry of Equality ratio equality so all these lands that were announced yesterday is the result of the engagement and the coordination that the Ministry of Indigenous People has been doing entirely

in the government to have these results announced here. Not long before the COP began, Brazilian President Lula approved oil drilling off the coast of the Amazon. He's been criticized by many environmentalists. Can you respond to this as his minister, his indigenous minister. First, it's important to clarify that it's not the liberation for oil exploitation. Was the authorization for the studies to understand the impact of the oil exploration in this area. So also it's important to say that Mr. President Lula announced here the phased-out mapping or oil exploitation, so that we could

like create alternatives and phase out because it's really common that sometimes oil will be like lacking from some cities and there will not be any other alternatives

for that communities to move but then it's important to have a clear map and a clear actions so that we can diminish our dependency of the oil and look for other alternatives, and we are committed to that. President Lula has also talked about a fossil fuel phase-out plan.

Do you think this is possible? And what are the forces working against that? It's always a challenge. It's really, it's not simple, it's hard, because there is a dispute. big one with the economic sectors so that this change do not happen. So we need to make

sure that agreements down at COP and commitments done at COP can tackle this because the world knows the impact that oil exploitation fossil fuels does. The risk of us are achieving the point of no return.

But these sectors, the economic sectors, need to understand this is an emergency. So we need to have a clear decision here in this conference to stop depending on fossil fuel. The violence against indigenous land defenders in Latin America is the worst in the world. I'm wondering how you think Lula is dealing with that, how you think it can be dealt with, the number of deaths continues as people try to protect the land. What measures have been taken?

Brazil has just launched a national plan for defenders of defenders. We are also working to approve Eskazu agreement passed by the House of Representatives and now is going to the Senate. We really think it is important that that will be also approved not only by the House of Representatives, representatives, but also the Senate, and there is a big effort of the Brazilian government and executive power to work to guarantee this approval. We also have a plan to combat the races that is also being launched by the Brazilian government and a security, like a public security plan, because unfortunately we have in the indigenous territories 60% of this

The force of the Minister Justice is there trying to combat violence and attacks in the indigenous territories. But we know that forces like the military forces or security is not the only way of combating the attacks. We need to get public policies to get into the territories and advancing the demarcation as a way of doing this. You and Alasandra Kordap Munduruku and other indigenous leaders took on Bolsonaro in a big way. Can you talk about the significance of him being sentenced to decades in prison and what his presidency meant for Brazil, particularly indigenous people? It was a really hard moment for indigenous peoples in Brazil, together with the neglect and the offensive attack from Bolsonaro. We also had a pandemic where he not only neglected the pandemic, but also he, he

was responsible for some measures that was against us. He attacked our rights, took our rights, so it was a very challenging and hard moment. We react, we organized, we were fundamental to be able to destroy faces, fascism. So, Bolsonaro now is judged and condemned, and we really expect, that the justice will be done, and if he's sent it to prison, we expect he will be paying for all his crimes, and that's what we expect that justice can recognize, and so he can pay for everything he has done against us. President Trump, the President of the United States, has increased the tariffs on Brazil until the case is dropped against Bolsonaro, the case against him attempting a coup

against Lula in the same way that President Trump was accused of attempting a coup in the United States. What do you think of Trump demanding that Bolsonaro not go through the justice system, not be imprisoned? It is unacceptable, and that's why President Lula was very firm, and he has a strong position to defend the sovereignty of her country. and two strain of democracy. And the Brazilian people was together with him, besides him, supporting his position to defend our sovereignty.

I wanted to ask you about criticism of the cop being in Belém. On the one hand, it brings the world's focus to the gateway to the Amazon. On the other hand, people have said, you know, a four-lane highway was built, that cut-down. some of the rainforest. What are your thoughts? I think the first thing is a scamcaro a racism very

great of society, contra Amazonia. I think the first important thing is that today is just like show and make it clear the environmental and the racism that we still have. People are saying that there's no

condition for a COP to be able to be realized and organized the here, and that was also fruit of prejudice against the people that live here. So beyond forest, people need to understand that we have culture, we have people,

and we have a diversity of people that protects the Amazon. So it's important that the world know that it's not only forests and animals that lives in the Amazon. There are people living there. People that are being attacked, assaulted. They're

having their rights violated and that they need protection. On the other side, here in the Amazon exists, the needs in the man's coming from the population of infrastructure, because in many places we have very hard access. So who needs to say if there is bad or good impact? It's the people that lives here. That is Brazil's first minister of indigenous peoples. Sonja Guajajara, here at the UN Climate Summit, that's COP 30, in the Brazilian city of Belm, the gateway to the Amazon.

Next up, is the Amazon rainforest being pushed beyond the tipping point? We'll speak with the world-renowned Brazilian climatologist Carlos Nobre. Stay with us. knowse. Yo, oh, man, yo. Why,

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Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. We're broadcasting at the UN Climate Summit, COP 30, here in the Brazilian city of Belam, the gateway to the

Amazon rainforest. I'm Amy Goodman with Nermin-Sheikh. As we broadcast, there's a protest right behind us by the loss and Damage Youth Coalition, where they are holding a banner that reads, from opinion to

obligation, respond to loss and damage. We end today's show with one of Brazil's most prominent scientists, Dr. Carlos Nobri. He's a senior researcher at the Institute of Advanced Studies at the University of San Paulo and co-chair of the scientific panel for the Amazon. He's a lead author of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC, that won a Nobel Peace Prize in 2007 for its reports on global warming. For decades, Carlos Nobre has been warning the Amazon rainforest is being pushed beyond the tipping point. The Amazon rainforest is almost as large as the contiguous United States.

Carlos Nobri, welcome to Democracy Now. It's an honor to be in your presence. You have been warning for quite some time. And now it's getting more serious than ever, what is the tipping point? And for a lay audience around the world, explain to us why the biome of the Amazon rainforest is so important for the world. Good morning. Thank you very much. Yes, I've been working for 43 years with the Amazon. I was the first scientist in 1990, 1991 publishing of science articles saying, if we continue with very high deforestation, the Amazon would cross the tipping point. But that was 1990, 91, 36 years ago. Now the Amazon is very close to the tipping point. Why do we say that? Because from the Atlantic to Bolivia,

Peru and Colombia, this is 2.5 million square kilometers. The whole forest is close to 7 minutes per kilometer, but this southern portion very close tipping point. The dry season is

four to five weeks lengthier in 45 years. One week per decade. It was three, four months, but with rain during the dry season. Now it's four to five months. 20, 30% drier, 2, 3 degrees warmer.

And also, tree mortality has increased a lot in these areas. In the southeastern Amazon, south of where we are, the forest has become a carbon source. It's losing more carbon and removing. So if we continue, deforestation is about 18%, degradation, 30%. If we reach 20, 25% deforestation, global warming

close to 2 degrees, we cross permanently the tipping point. We are going to lose up to 70% of the Amazon within 30 to 50 years. If we continue with global warming and deforestation, we reach tipping point by 2040. So, by 27,

2100, we're going to lose 70% of the Amazon. will release more than 250 billion tons of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere, making it impossible to maintain the global warming at 1.5 degrees. We are going to lose the highest biodiversity in the planet, so terrible. And also, the Amazon recycles water so well that about 45% of the water vapor that comes from the Atlantic Ocean transported by the trade winds. goes to the south of the Amazon and feeds more than 50% of rainfall on the tropical

savannah south of the Amazon. So, and also the Atlantic rainforest. So it's really essential. If we lose the Amazon, not only the Amazon forest will disappear, but the tropical savannah as well. If you could also talk, Dr. Bnabre, in addition to increase, heat and the dryness that you talked about. You've also said that livestock grazing is a form of ecological pollution. Now, Brazil is the world's second largest producer of beef. If you could talk about what the impact of cattle ranching has been on this deforestation of the Amazon. Yes, of course. I mean, 90% of the first deforestation in the lowlands in the Amazon in Brazil

is related to cattle ranches. And when we compute, Brazil is the only country in the world where 70% of fossil fuel emissions, greenhouse gas emissions, come from land use change. About 70% of emissions, 40% of deforestation, and about 20, 25% of emissions. This comes from agriculture, but mostly for cattle ranches, particularly the cattle emits a lot of methane, all ruminants. So we say 55% of emissions in Brazil related to livestock, you know, the deforestation for cattle ranches and also the cattle emitting methane.

So, really, we need urgently to get to zero deforestation, all Brazilian biomes, especially the Amazon, and also merging to the so-called regenerative livestock. Regenerative livestock, we have about 15% in Brazil of regenerative livestock. And very little. The regenerative livestock makes, reduces a lot. emissions by livestock. And, you know, in Brazil, as you well know, Brazil is one of the world's largest agricultural exporters, which means the alternative that you mentioned may compensate, but presumably

it would be a massive economic loss to Brazil if their agricultural production were to go down. But as you were mentioning earlier, though, there has been a commitment by countries. countries here to work on a roadmap to get to zero deforestation by 2030. So there is an agreement there, whereas there's not a majority of countries signing up to the roadmap to phasing out fossil fuels. So if you could just talk about, I mean, the countries that are in part dependent on agricultural exports, what would it mean to diminish cattle ranching? I mean, you've become, in fact, vegetarian as a result of this.

Listen, mostly livestock, average productivity is very low. Brazil has about 1.5 heads of cattle per hectare. This is very little. Brazil has about 3.2 million square kilometers, mostly livestock, and also agricultural. So, regenerative livestock will have three to five heads of cattle per hectare, reducing emissions. And also, the regenerative agricultural and livestock is much more resilient to the climate extremes. For instance, last year, Brazil had a record-breaking drought in the Amazon tropical savannah, Cerrado, and the record-breaking decline of agriculture,

productivity. So, therefore, Brazil can continue being a tremendous high producer of meat, agricultural, soy grains, using not 3.2 million square kilometers, but maximum 2 million square kilometers. I want to ask you a question about climate science. You have said that it's a mystery to you, the country which invested the most in climate science, a country with, the largest number of climate sciences and very few who deny climate change, which contributed the most to the IPCC report. How is it possible this country elected a climate denier? And we're talking about the United States. But talk about the significance of the billions of dollars

being removed from science research in the United States and the effect that has all over the world. Well, that's a very good question because, in fact, I mean, I create a name because all tipping points that we know in the climate, all than 20, they are all associated with ecological, biological, hydrological, ocean-related tipping points. But I think now the world in democracies, We are creating, I quote, quote and quote, a social political tipping point, which is, it's not only in the U.S. In many countries and the world, democracies, we are electing more and more populist politicians. U.S. President Trump, Argentina, President Millie, Brazil elected, former President Bolsonaro, totally climate denier. Deforestation increased a lot in those four years.

That's happening all over the planet. So this is a, I even gave a name in the West. I said this social political tipping point is the trumping point. Why we are in democracies. As you mentioned, the country with the top science on climate change, US always for decades, why US democracy electors are electing a climate and higher president? This is very serious. You've said, Dr. Nobre, I mean, it's remarkable, as you said, with these right-wing governments

being led in part by Donald Trump. The fact that this roadmap to deforestation was agreed, you've said that COP 30 is a critical a meeting of a critical climate summit. Explain why and what you hope is going to come out of this. It's formally concluding tomorrow, but it regularly goes beyond that date. Yes, that's a very good point because all of our scientists, we say this COP 30 has to be very important. I mean, as important as Paris Agreement, as important, COP 26, when all countries agree in reducing emissions. we have to accelerate reducing emissions. Yesterday, we, the planetary science pavilion people, we hand-deliver our declaration to all negotiators, and I hand-deliver to President Lula as well.

We say, in addition to zero deforestation, all biomes, tropical forests by 2030, we have to accelerate reducing of emissions by fossil fuels. We say, ideally, zero, zero. zero fossil fuel emissions by 2040, no longer than 2045. No questions, because the temperature is reaching 1.5 degrees within 5 to 10 years permanently. If we only get to net zero emissions by 2050, we may reach 2 degrees and even more. It will be a tragedy, an equal side for the planet.

And when I present this document to President Lula, He said, also four times he said, I was in a meeting with him. He said, this has to be the most important cop of all cops. Let's hope in two days now, countries will agree not only zero deforestation of oil forests by 2030, but zero fossil fuel emissions by 2014. We want to thank you so much, Carlos Nobri, leading Brazilian scientists, renowned climatologist, senior researcher at the Institute of Advanced Studies at the University of Sao Paulo, co-chair of the scientific panel for the Amazon, where we are right now. We're in

Belem, the gateway of the Amazon. I'm Amy Goodman with Nermin Sheikh.