Democracy Now! Audio - Democracy Now! 2025-11-24 Monday

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

Headlines for November 24, 2025; From Affordability to Genocide, Trump-Mamdani Meeting at White House Was Full of Surprises; Climate Deal Excludes Fossil Fuel Phaseout as Wealthy Nations Place Burden “On the Backs of the Poor”

From New York, this is Democracy Now. But I just want to congratulate. I think you're going to have hopefully a really great mayor. The better he does, the happier I am, I will say. There's no difference in party. There's no difference in anything. and we're going to be helping him to make everybody's dream come true, having a strong and very safe New York.

And congratulations, Mr. Mayor. I appreciated the meeting with the president. And as he said, it was a productive meeting focused on a place of shared admiration and love, which is New York City, and the need to deliver affordability to New Yorkers. President Trump and New York's mayor-electsor on Mandani met Friday for the first time at the White House. While Trump had previously called Mamdani a communist lunatic, he struck a very different tone on Friday. We'll get response. Then the UN Climate Summit, COP 30, has ended in Belang, Brazil.

A deal was reached, but it makes no mention of phasing out fossil fuels. Adaptation alone and the finances for adaptation are not sufficient if we don't deal with the problem. The rude cause of this problem is positive. We'll go to Brazil and Washington, D.C. for response. All that and more coming up. Welcome to Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. Funerals are being held in Gaza today after Israeli airstrikes killed at least 24 people on Saturday,

despite the U.S. brokered ceasefire that began October 10th. Gaza's government media office says Israel's violated the truce nearly 500 times in 44 days. Meanwhile, UNICEF reports Israel's killed two children every day during the ceasefire. At least 67 children have been killed in Gaza in recent weeks. This is Ahmed Abushawish, whose relatives were killed in Israeli air strikes over the weekend. What's the reason? Nobody knows. Aren't we supposed to be in a truce? We're looking at the house.

We've been trying to forget this scene for a month. We are starting to go back to our normal life. How are we supposed to go back to normal life? We're back to martyrs, back to destruction, back to injuries. What's the reason? We're confused. No one knows. Meanwhile, in Lebanon, an Israeli airstrike on a Beirut suburb Sunday

killed five people and wounded 28, According to the Lebanese health ministry, Israel claims it assassinated Hezbollah's number two, the acting chief of staff. The attack comes despite a U.S. brokered ceasefire between Hezbollah and Israel went into effect last year. There is a ceasefire under international auspices led primarily by the United States of America. Since then, and since the announcement of the agreement and the halt of military operations, the Israeli and Israeli and, has remained persistent and addicted to continuing its aggression, targeting buildings, people, and civilians, and you know that this area is a civilian area. The U.S.'s top military officer will visit Puerto Rico today as a U.S. Navy warship

dispatches to the Caribbean. The visit by General Dan Cain, the chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, comes as the Trump administration set to formally designate Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro and his government allies as members of a foreign terrorist organization, a Cartel de los Solis. The entity is not actually a cartel, is instead a reference to military officers and officials allegedly involved in corruption and other illegal activities in Venezuela. Reuters is reporting the U.S. is also considering a new phase of covert operations in Venezuela. It would be a major escalation after U.S. airstrikes on alleged drug boats.

in recent weeks have killed more than 80 people. Meanwhile, six airlines have canceled their flights to Venezuela. After the FAA, the Federal Aviation Administration warned of a worsening security situation and heightened military activity in the region. U.S., Ukrainian and European officials are meeting in Geneva, Switzerland to discuss the U.S. proposal to end Russia's war on Ukraine. The 28-point plan was negotiated by U.S. and Russian officials without the involvement of Ukraine. Reuters reports European negotiators submitted a modified version of the plan that reverses some of the proposed limits to the size of Ukraine's military, as well as some territorial concessions. On Sunday, the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky once again praised the United States and President Trump, after Trump wrote on social media, quote,

Ukraine leadership has expressed zero gratitude for our efforts, unquote. Meanwhile, Russia's continued deadly attacks on Ukrainian civilians, including a drone strike on Harkiv on Sunday that killed four people and wounded 17 others. New York City Mayor Alexer on Mamdani met with President Trump at the Oval Office on Friday. During the meeting, President Trump repeatedly praised Mamdani and said he would feel, quote, very confident that he can do a very good job, unquote. President Trump also said he would feel comfortable living in New York under Mamdani's leadership.

Speaking to reporters, Mamdani maintained his past criticisms of President Trump. Are you affirming that you think President Trump is a fascist? I've spoken about... That's okay. You can just say, yes. Okay. It's easier. It's easier than explaining it. I don't mind.

On Sunday, Zoran Mamdani doubled down on his views that President Trump is a fascist and a despot in an interview with NBC's meet the press. Do you think that President Trump is a fascist? And after President Trump said that, I said yes. So you do. And that's something that I've said in the past, I say today. And I think what I appreciated about the conversation that I had with the president was that we were not shy about the places of disagreement about the politics that has brought us to this moment. We'll have more on mayor. elect Mamdani's meeting with President Trump after headlines.

Several Democratic lawmakers have filed police complaints after President Trump called for them to be put to death for what he called seditious behavior. Trump's threat came after six lawmakers who are veterans of the military or CIA called on active duty service members to refuse illegal orders. Congress members Jason Crowe, Chris Deluzio, and Chrissy Hulahan told the U.S. Capitol Police that Trump's call for their execution has undermined their personal safety while putting the lives of congressional staffers at risk. Crow released audio of death threats phoned into his offices while Delutcio reported

his congressional offices in western Pennsylvania received bomb threats. On Friday, Trump doubled down on his threats, accusing the Democrats of, quote, sedition at the highest level. unquote. President Trump denied federal disaster aid to thousands of Chicago residents, even though his administration documented extraordinary damage from two major storms this summer. That's according to Politico, which reports it's the first time since at least 2007 that any president has refused to help residents recover from such extensive damage to their homes. Trump's denial stunned former FEMA officials. it comes after Trump said Illinois governor J.B. Pritzker and Chicago mayor Brandon Johnson

should be jailed over their resistance to Trump's surge of federal immigration agents and National Guard forces into the Chicago region. In Oregon, federal immigration agents forced a 17-year-old high school student from his vehicle and abducted him as the teen took a lunch break Friday. video shows masked ice agent smashed the driver's side window of a car being driven by Christian Jimenez, a senior at Mickmanville High School, who told them he was a U.S. citizen, to which an agent replied, get out of the car, and I don't care. Jimenez's brother says the teen was racially profiled and injured by shattered glass. He was taken to an ice facility in Portland and released later that day. He's been charged with interference or obstruction of an investigation.

The U.S. Supreme Court has temporarily restored Texas's new congressional map that's designed to allow Republicans to win up to five additional house seats in next year's midterm elections. On Friday, Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito paused a lower court. ruling, which stated the new map was an illegal racial gerrymander. The High Court has asked plaintiffs to respond by today before a final ruling on the congressional map. In Nigeria, 50 kidnapped students escape their captors on Friday after gunmen stormed a Catholic boarding school and abducted over 300 children and 12 teachers last week. The Christian Association of Nigeria says the children who managed to escape have been reunited with their families. Now, a major military-led search and rescue mission is underway to find the remaining

children and teachers. Last week, gunmen stormed another boarding school and abducted 25 schoolgirls and killed the vice principal. The recent kidnappings have prompted officials to close 47 schools in northern Nigeria. President Bola Tanubu has also ordered the hiring of 30,000 more political. police officers, but Nigerians are calling for officials to take more action. We've seen our whole women being kidnapped, being robbed in this country that we call giants of Africa. We're so bad. And the current government, they are not doing anything

to what is happening. The G20 summit in South Africa concluded Sunday. It was the first time the meeting was held in the African continent. The U.S. boycotted. the meeting, citing false allegations that South Africa's mistreating its white minority Afrikaners. Leaders gathered at the summit adopted a joint declaration to address the climate crisis and other global challenges without input from the United States. The White House claimed South Africa had, quote, weaponized their G20 presidency to undermine the G20's founding principles, unquote. Meanwhile, Brazil's president, Luisianasio Lula de Silva, declared the G20, G20 Summit in South Africa, a success.

President Trump has been demonstrating this for several months now. He has already withdrawn from UNESCO and the World Trade Organization. He is attempting to preach the end of multilateralism in practice, trying to strengthen unilateralism. I believe multilateralism will prevail. President Lula had flown in from Brazil. In Belen, Brazil, the U.N. climate. summit, known as COP 30, has concluded without an agreement to phase out the use of coal oil

and gas, which are by far the largest contributors to global climate change. More than 80 countries had supported a transition away from fossil fuels, but they were blocked by oil-producing nations, including Russia, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates. The U.S. boycotted the summit. This is Irene Velas Torres, Colombia's Environment Minister. The root cause of this problem is fossil fuels. How are we dealing with that? How are we going to come out from this COP to say and to tell the people that we deny the most basic scientific truth,

which is that the possible fuels are the cause of more than 80% of the emissions that are generating climate change? The COP 30 agreement also makes no new commitments to halt deforestation, nor does it address global meat consumption, another major driver of global heating. More than 1,600 fossil fuel industry lobbyists and 300 industrial agriculture lobbyists attended COP 30. Meanwhile, the Trump administration did not send a formal delegation after the White House in January withdrew the U.S. from the Paris Climate Agreement for the second time. We'll have more on this story later in the broadcast.

And former Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro has been arrested after he tampered with his ankle monitor while under House arrest. The arrest was ordered by Brazil's Supreme Court Justice, Alexandra de Moresh, over fears Bolsonaro would attempt to escape his compound days before he's heading to prison. Back in September, Bolsonaro was sentenced to 27 years in prison for plotting a military coup against Brazil's current president Luis Inasio Lula. De Silva. And those are some of the headlines. This is Democracy Now. Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace Report. Coming up, President Trump hosts New York Mayor Alexeran Mamdani at the White House will air excerpts of the meeting and get response.

Stay with us. President President, President, President, President, President, Bolsonaro. Bezo, President, President, President, President. President, President. A great-you-bed-Genzhen-Gas-Modano. A street a street parade celebrating Javier Bolsonaro's arrest in Sao in Sao Paulo's Santa in Sao's Santa Cecilia neighborhood this weekend. This is Democracy Now.org The War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman.

President Trump and New York Mayor-elect, the Democratic Socialists, Oran Mamdani, met Friday at the White House in the Oval Office for the first time. Over the past several months, both Trump and Mamdani have harshly criticized each other. Trump's called Mamdani a communist lunatic and a, quote, Jew hater. Trump had also threatened to send the National Guard to New York and, cut off billions of dollars in federal funding to New York City if Mamdani was elected. Meanwhile, Mamdani has described Trump as a fascist and a despot. Many of Trump's supporters had criticized Trump for inviting Mamdani, who will soon become New York's first Muslim and South Asian mayor.

The far-right conspiracy theorist Laura Lumer said it was, quote, wild to allow a jihadist communist to stand behind the president's desk in the Oval Office, unquote. But President Trump struck a very different tone as he openly embraced Mamdani's effort to make New York City more affordable. These are excerpts from their press conference in the Oval Office. We've just had a great meeting, a really good, very productive meeting. We have one thing in common. We want this city of ours that we love. to do very well. And I wanted to congratulate the mayor. He really ran an incredible race against a lot of smart people, starting with the early primaries against some very tough people, very smart

people. And he beat him, and he beat him easily. And I congratulated him. And we talked about some things in very strong common, like housing and getting housing built and food and prices. and the price of oil is coming way down. Anything I do is going to be good for New York. If I can get prices down, it's good for New York. And we've got them down way down from last year. We have, as you know, I've been saying to a lot of people, Walmart said that Thanksgiving this year is exactly 25% less than last year.

So that's good for New York, good for everybody. But I just want to congratulate. I think you're going to have hopefully a really great mayor. The better he does, the happier I am. I will say there's no difference in party. There's no difference in anything. And we're going to be helping him to make everybody's dream come true, having a strong and very safe New York.

And congratulations, Mr. Mayor. Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you. I appreciate it. Please. I appreciated the meeting with the president. And as he said, it was a productive meeting focused on a place of shared admiration and love, which is New York City, and the need to deliver affordability to New Yorkers,

the 8.5 million people who call our city their home. who are struggling to afford life in the most expensive city in the United States of America. We spoke about rent. We spoke about groceries. We spoke about utilities. We spoke about the different ways in which people are being pushed out. And I appreciated the time with the president.

I appreciated the conversation. I look forward to working together to deliver that affordability for New Yorkers. Mr. Rondotty, it sounds like you had a productive discussion. But just days ago, you referred to President Trump as a despot who betrayed the country. He said he would be his worst nightmare and accused of having a fascist fascist agenda, are you claiming to retract any of these remarks in order to improve the relationship? I think both President Trump and I, we are very clear about our positions and our views,

and what I really appreciate about the president is that the meeting that we had focused not on places of disagreement, which there are, many, and also focused on the shared purpose that we have in serving New Yorkers. And frankly, that is something that could transform the lives of the eight and a half million people who are currently struggling under a cost of living crisis with one and four living in poverty. And the meeting came back again and again to what it could look like to lift those New Yorkers out of struggle and start to deliver them a city that they could do more than just struggle to afford it, but actually start to live in it. And I've been called much worse than a despot, so it's not that insulting. Maybe, I think he'll change his mind after we get to

working together. He's threatened to send federal troops to New York City. You both have differences when it comes to ICE agents of New New York City. I'm done. You call ICE, a road government entity. I wonder how you reconcile your differences on both of those issues. Well, I think we're going to work them out. And I think that if we have known murderers and known drug dealers and some very bad people, you know, we want to get them out. And the mayor wants to have peace. We discussed this at great length, actually, maybe more than anything else. He wants to have a safe New York. Ultimately, a safe New York is going to be a great New York. I want to ask the mayor elect about a House resolution just passed overwhelmingly to condemn socialism,

including with 86 Democrats, all of House Dem leadership, and the minority leader, King Jeffries, despite his endorsement of you. What's your reaction to that? I have to be honest with you. I focused very little on resolutions. Frankly, I've been focusing... I understand. I understand. I think the focus is on the work at hand. I can tell you I am someone who is a Democratic socialist.

I've been very open about that. And I know there might be differences about ideology. But the place of agreement is the work that needs to be done to make New York City affordable. That's what I look forward to. And I want to clarify your answer to Stephen Mell said. He asked about your comment, calling the president a fascist. And your answer was, but President Trump and I have been clear about our positions and our views. Are you affirming that you think President Trump is a fascist?

I've spoken about. That's okay. You can just say yes. It's easier. It's easier than explaining it. Excerpts of President Trump and New York mayor-elect Zor on Mamdani at the White House Friday. On Sunday, Mayor-elect Mamdani appeared on Meet the Press. He was interviewed by Kristen Welker.

Mr. Mayor-elect, just to be very clear, do you think that President Trump is a fascist? And after President Trump said that, I said yes. So you do. And that's something that I've said in the past. I say today. And I think what I appreciated about the conversation that I had with the president was that We were not shy about the places of disagreement about the politics that has brought us to this moment. And we also wanted to focus on what it could look like to deliver on a shared analysis of an affordability crisis for New Yorkers.

You've also said in the past that President Trump has engaged in a, quote, attack on our democracy. You've called them a despot. Do you still believe President Trump is a threat to the democracy? Everything that I've said in the past, I continue to believe. And that's the thing that I think is important in our politics is that we don't shy away from where we have disagreement. but we understand what it is that brings us to that table because I'm not coming into the Oval office to make a point or make a stand. I'm coming in there to deliver for New Yorkers. And a few weeks ago, I was asked by a reporter three words to describe myself.

I said New York City. And that's what animated that conversation. How do we deliver for the people of New York City? We're joined right now by Ross Barkin, journalist, author, columnist for the New York Magazine. His latest book is Fascism or Genocide, how a decade of political disorder broke American politics. His most recent piece for New York Magazine is titled Zoran Mamdani is a mayor for a new age in New York City. He's now writing a book for Random House on Mamdani's rise. In 2018, Ross Barkin ran for New York State Senate. Zoran Mamdani served as his campaign manager. Ross Barkin, welcome back to democracy now. You know Zeran Mamdani very well. Talk about the significance of this.

meeting at the White House on Friday? Well, it was obviously a remarkable meeting. You going in, don't expect them to be so chummy. And the tableau was certainly jarring. But I would say there were reasons that they were able to get along. I do think Trump respects Mamdani because he's been successful, because he's built a movement behind him, because he's charismatic, because he subverted his political establishment. Trump did the same thing on the Republican side.

So I do think Trump has less respect for establishment Democrats like Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries. He looks to Mamdani. He sees someone who is new. He's a fresh face. They're certainly going to battle. There's no doubt they cannot be friends forever. But it was notable. And it does help New York City if Trump is less antagonistic towards Mamdani.

The idea is to have Trump do as little damage as possible to New York City. that was the goal of the meeting. So so far for Mamdani, so good, we'll see what happens next. I mean, it's very interesting. I want to go back to President Trump's meeting with Mamdani. We discussed ICE and New York City, and I spoke about how the laws that we have in New York City allow for New York City government to speak to the federal administration for about 170 serious crimes. The concerns that many New Yorkers have are around the enforcement of immigration laws on New Yorkers across the five boroughs and most recently we're talking about a mother and her two children how this has very little to do with what that is what we did is we discuss crime more than ice per se

we discuss crime and he doesn't want to see crime and i don't want to see crime and i have very little doubt that we're not going to get along on that issue he wants to and he said some things that were very interesting very interesting as to housing construction and he wants to see houses go up He wants to see a lot of houses created, a lot of apartments built, et cetera. And, you know, we actually, people would be shocked. But I want to see the same thing. So let's unpack this. From the thread of sending ICE agents and federal troops into New York, whether you think this is going to happen,

to the issue of housing and affordability and whether or not they see the same thing, President Trump's saying he could see living in the New York City of Mayor Mamdani. Well, I've long thought that Trump was going to send the National Guard into New York City under Mamdani administration. One thing about this meeting is that could have changed that seemingly inevitable future. We'll find out. I mean, Trump is extremely mercurial, so one can't really know. But if Mamnani can successfully keep the National Guard out of New York City, that's certainly a victory for him. As for the ICE incursions, I mean, that's going to be fascinating.

because the real vicious use of ICE has been a hallmark of Trump's second term under Tom Homan. So I still find it hard to believe ICE will simply retreat out of New York City. But if Mamdani has a dialogue with Trump, perhaps New York can avoid the fate of a Chicago where ICE has really been wreaking havoc day in and day out in other cities as well. And if they continue to have this dialogue, if they continue to have a relationship, perhaps ICE is less determined to wantonly arrest people. I still don't know if Mom Nani will be able to keep Trump at bay in that way. It's just hard to know.

But certainly the meeting was productive. Then in terms of housing, it's very interesting. I mean, Trump is a developer at heart, so he understands the language of building that you have to build more housing. I don't know if that means the federal government will be helpful anyway. I don't really expect it. But it showed there was some commonality. there. So let me ask you about what happened right before their meeting at the White House.

You had Congress voting on a bipartisan resolution with scores of Democrats joining, condemning the, quote, horrors of socialism. It had been introduced this resolution about a month ago, but the Republicans decided to bring it on the floor Friday morning. The response that Zoran Mamdani had to this is that he's a Democratic socialist. Talk about the meaning of this and the scores of Democrats, including the House Minority Leader, the House Minority Leader, Hakeem Jeffries, who represents Brooklyn, who just recently endorsed Zeran Mamdani, joining in the condemnation. Well, Mamdani has been incredibly concerned.

accommodating to Hakeem Jeffries, who might end up the House Speaker in 2027, even though Jeffries offered only a tepid endorsement and has not been terribly helpful to him, to be frank. But I think Bob Nani wants to build a broad coalition. He wants to help with a governor to implement his agenda. Kathy Hokel and Hakeem Jeffries are close, so I think it's important to maintain those ties for him to deliver on his agenda. I mean, the reality is that the Republicans who really wanted to upset or discompobulate Mamdani failed. They also failed to move Trump fully into their column. Trump flattered Mamdani and praised for him, and in a way created complications for

their 2026 midterm strategy, which is to tie all Democrats to Mamdani. So in one hand, you have a lot of centrist Democrats who are never going to understand Mamdani's appeal or don't want to, and they're going to run away from the term socialism. as we saw with Mamdani, at least in New York City, one can run towards the term and win. So he's an accommodating person. He's not going to attack. He's going to try to build coalitions. That's what he's doing right now.

But we shall see what the future holds. Ross Barkin, what do you make of NYC, DSA, that's the Democratic Socialists of America, just voting not to endorse city council member Chiosay's challenge against New York. your Congress member, Hakeem Jeffries, with more than half, 52% of DSA members rejecting him. Well, the reality is from a practical standpoint, Mom Dani didn't want that primary because it was going to be quite bloody. It was probably, is probably not winnable. It's going to be inordinately difficult because Jeffries is not like Joe Crowley. He's not like Andrew Cuomo. He doesn't have scandals. He doesn't hide from his district. Also,

She, Osay himself, is not really a member of DSA. He joined very recently. So there was excitement around him, and there's a lot of rank and file who want to take on Hakeem Jeffries, who's very pro-Israel and who's a centrist. But the reality is, O'SA was probably not the ideal vessel for DSA. DSA really wants candidates who are loyal to the organization who are going to work closely with the organization, like Mamdani. I think there is distrust towards Ose, and also Ose, Ose,

didn't quite make the case that he could defeat Hakeem Jeffreys. If you're going to undertake a primary like that, that's going to be incredibly divisive and maybe worthy, but also very tough. You've got to show you can win. I don't think enough members of DSA nor Mamdani were won over. During the White House press conference, Zeran Mamdani was asked about Israel and Gaza. You accused the U.S. government of committing genocide in Gaza, why President Trump would work working on peace. Why that? I've spoken about the Israeli government committing genocide, and I've spoken about our government funding it. And I shared with the president in our meeting about the concern that many

New Yorkers have of wanting their tax dollars to go towards the benefit of New Yorkers and their ability to afford basic dignity. And what we see right now is we're in the ninth consecutive year of more than 100,000 school children being homeless in our city. And there's a desperate need not only for the following of human rights, but also the following through on the promises we've made New Yorkers. And I appreciated the meeting we had and the work that we can do. Mayor-elect Zoran Mamdani. Ross Barkin, you're the author of the book, Fascism or Genocide, how a decade of political disorder broke American politics. The significance of the mayor-elect talking about Israel's assault on Gaza as a genocide and standing by what he has been

saying now for several years. It's actually quite remarkable. And I thought, thought it got overshadowed in that meeting. The headlines are all about how well the two men got along and how much Trump liked Mamdani. But the fact that Zaraan Mamdani went and stood inside the White House and called what Israel did to Gaza, a genocide, is, it would have been unthinkable even a year ago. When you think of how much the paradigm is shifted around Israel and Gaza and Palestine, I mean, this is something. that, you know, for Israel Hawks should be particularly concerning and for the pro-Palestine left should be exciting. I mean, I mean, this is really a moment I do think we'll look back on

as a time when politics truly shifted in this country because Mamani did not back down. And also, Trump did not criticize him for saying that. And that's the other part of this that really jumped out to me. Trump did not rush to defend Netanyahu. And Trump is obviously very much an Israel hawk and very much in a defender and enabler of the Netanyahu regime. But the fact that even he himself is willing to permit that kind of criticism and the fact that he himself is even weary of the Netanyahu war to some degree, I mean, shows that there has been a true shift on the ground. Ross Barkin, I want to thank you for being with us, journalist, author, columnist for New York

magazine, now writing a book on Zoran Mamdani. Tune in on Friday for a Democracy Now special on the rise of Zoran Mamdani. Coming up, the UN Climate Summit COP 30 has ended in Belang, Brazil. A deal was reached, but it makes no mention of phasing out fossil fuels. Stay with us. What's bugging you, baby? How come you hum like you do? Why must you?

Raise a stone And get your grew in a stew What's bugging you, baby? You mean and you quick on the bit Don't make wind gone, maybe Don't miss when you ought to hit Every time I flip a dime You start blowing your tie.

It must be big cost as you're awake all over the light. by the late folk legend Michael Hurley performing in our Democracy Now studio to see his performance as well as our interview go to DemocracyNow.org. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the war and peace report. I'm Amy Goodman. Global negotiations at the UN Climate Summit ended Saturday in Belang, Brazil, with a watered down agreement that doesn't include a roadmap to phase out fossil fuels, oil, gas, and coal. doesn't even mention fossil fuels, the world's largest contributors to the climate crisis. The final agreement went into overtime after two weeks of contentious negotiations in Belang,

the gateway to the Amazon. A coalition of more than 80 nations from Latin America, Asia, Africa, the Pacific Europe, and the U.K., had supported a just transition away from fossil fuels, but the efforts were derailed by petro-states, including Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, and Russia, as well as the more than 1,600 fossil fuel lobbyists who were granted access to the climate talks this year. A fossil fuel phase-out was also a key demand by the thousands of indigenous leaders who attended COP 30.

This is Colombia's environment minister, Akin Velaz Torres. Clearly, the oil-producing countries are only trying to focus on adaptation. But adaptation is an empty bag if mitigation doesn't come next to adaptation. Adaptation alone and the finances for adaptation are not sufficient if we don't deal with the problem. The root cause of this problem is fossil fuels. How are we dealing with that?

How are we going to come out from this COP to say and to tell the people that we deny the most basic scientific truth, which is that the possibilities are the cause of more than 80% of the emissions that are generating climate change. We cannot look at the people in the future generations if we don't do something now. And we cannot accept a text that is not dealing with the real problems. While in Belang, the governments of Colombia and the Netherlands announced they'd be co-hosting the first international conference on the just transition away from fossil fuels next to. year in Colombia. The landmark gathering will take place in the Colombian port city of Santa Marta in April. The COP 30 agreement also makes no new commitments to halt deforestation

and doesn't address global meat consumption, another major driver of global heating. More than 300 agribusiness lobbyists attended the climate talks in Berlin as the expansion of industrial agriculture, including the production of soy, has led to worsening air pollution and deforestation in the Amazon. This all comes as the Trump administration boycotted COP 30 after the White House withdrew the U.S. from the Paris Climate Agreement for the second time when Trump returned to office. We're now joined by two guests. In Belang, Brazil, Jonathan Watts, is with us, the Guardian's global environment writer, usually based in Altamira, Brazil. And in Washington, D.C., Brandon Wu is the director of policy and campaigns at ActionA.

USA just returned from COP 30 in Belang. We welcome you both to Democracy Now. Jonathan, let's begin with you. You're right there in the gateway to the Amazon. You had a major piece with other Guardian writers summarizing what happened. Why don't you do it for us here? What took place over these last two weeks? What agreement did it lead to? What didn't it agree to? Would you call it a total failure or an incremental, very slow transition away, though they wouldn't talk about transition away from what some call the F word fossil fuels? The first thing I would say is that it's not as bad as I expected. I had the lowest of expectations, which were almost realized this conference came perilously close to breaking

down. And if this had broken down, then the whole whole Paris agreement that's put in place 10 years ago could have collapsed. So this was a very dangerous moment. And I don't think we can understand what happened in Belém without looking at the terrible, terrible geopolitical situation. The absence of the United States was critical. The United States, of course, is the world's biggest historical emitter and the richest country. the one that in past conferences has leaned on countries like Saudi Arabia to be a bit more giving. It wasn't there, and President Donald Trump has been openly hostile to the whole multilateral global environmental governance system. Then you have the wars, then you have the fact that Europe is re-arming.

So in this context, I think it's amazing that anything came out of this. Your summary is excellent that this conference didn't get anywhere near close enough to where we need to be going to keep global warming to a reasonably safe level of 1.5C. All the scientists I talked to here, and that was something new about this conference, bringing in more scientists as well as more indigenous people, all the scientists here were incredibly alarmed. We're approaching a number of tipping points when it's a lot. with regards to the Amazon rainforest, with regards to Atlantic currents, and so forth.

So, yes, that's frustrating, but that's not new. Last year was a very similar outcome. This year, what? I think there was, it's really disappointing there was no mention of fossil fuels, but Saudi Arabia just said really clearly, if you talk about a roadmap and transition, these talks are going to collapse. So it just wasn't on the table. But what we did see was the start of a new just transition mechanism,

a tripling of funds, adaptation funds for developing countries. And more than anything else, a kind of a radicalism that's come into the talks that wasn't there before. It was there on the streets for the first time in four years. Civil society was out in force, amazing color, dynamism, flotillas in the, the Bay, tens of thousands of people in the streets, more indigenous people in the conference than ever before. That was incredibly encouraging. So was the fact that, as you mentioned, Colombia and a group of other high-ambition nations have decided to go in alone and create a parallel series of conferences for a just transition away from fossil fuels. That's really going on the offensive.

And then finally, kind of in the background of all of this was China. And what's happening in China with its fossil fuel shift away, sorry, a shift away from fossil fuels, incredibly, incredible ramp up of wind, solar, electric cars that is transforming the world, despite what the talks do or achieve or don't achieve. It's absolutely incredible how fast things are moving in that area. So it seems from where I'm sitting that the United States under Donald Trump is trying to go backwards to the 20th century in a fossil fuel era, whereas a huge part of the rest of the world wants to move forward into something else. So yes, I wish there was much, much more on the table here. But given everything that's happening in the world right now, the whole process lives to fight another day.

You talk about the role of China. I want to bring in Brandon Wu, China and the United States. You've just returned from Berlin, flew in to Washington, D.C. If you can talk about the significance of the U.S., so you don't say the U.S. and Saudi Arabia and UAE and other countries blocked the final declaration mentoring fossil fuels, but that's only because the U.S. boycotted. So the significance of this, and did you expect that China would more fill the vacuum as it becomes a leader in the production of renewable energy technology? Yeah, China's role in all this is extremely interesting. You know, let's talk about that. I actually want to back up a moment and say, I'm extremely angry, right? I'm angry at a really weak outcome.

I'm angry at the fossil fuel lobbyist roaming the venue freely, while the indigenous activists that both of you have mentioned were actually met with militarized repression. I'm angry at all the governments that aren't standing up for their people, but I have a special level of incandescent outrage at a particular set of countries, and it's actually a slightly different set than the one that we're naming so far, and that is the rich developed countries of the global north, who come in to these conferences and they act like they're the heroes when in fact what they're

doing is shifting the burden of a crisis that they caused onto the backs of the poor. So you have, of course, you have the United States. But also the European Union, which is part of this so-called high ambition coalition pushing a fossil fuel roadmap, they are not on track in any way to phase out fossil fuels themselves. At this point, 10 years after the Paris Agreement, the countries of the global North should be pretty close to near zero emissions. None of them are anywhere close to that. And so to come in and to push a fossil fuel roadmap, you know, it strikes as a little bit

hypocritical. Of course, we need a fossil fuel phase out. We need it as fast as possible. It has to start in the global north, and the global north has to provide the finance to the global south to enable that to happen. that is part of what China is doing, frankly. China is also doing some unhelpful stuff, you know, continuing investment in coal, but they are also investing in renewables in a way that the Global North just isn't doing its scale. And that's what's undermining trust in the agreement.

That's why countries like most of Africa, not just Saudi Arabia and Russia, were opposed to the fossil fuel roadmap in Bilem, because they had no assurance that the Global North would be moving first, or would be providing support for them to have a transition? Brendan Wu, when you talk about adaptation, it's become a buzzword. Everyone understands that at the UN Climate Summit, but outside of that, I don't think people really get it. Explain what you mean by funding adaptation. So adaptation is really just supporting communities to be resilient to climate impacts. Climate impacts are not, you know, we all know climate impacts are not something that's going to

happen in the future. It's happening now. It's been happening for decades, particularly in the most vulnerable countries in the global south. Many of those communities had zero contribution to the climate crisis, but they're the ones that are feeling the brunt of its harmful effects, and they need to be supported with resources to be able to adapt to those impacts. That's what we're talking about when we talk about adaptation finance. And again, it's the wealthy countries of the global north that have caused this crisis that are responsible for providing that support. We did get a tripling in theory of adaptation finance at this cop, but if you look at the actual text, it's really ambiguous. So the developed countries led by the EU, they took out the baseline.

It was supposed to be adaptation tripling from 2025 levels by 2030. They took out the baseline, so now it doesn't reference 2025 levels, so we're not sure what we're tripling from. And they pushed the deadline from 2030 to 2035. 10 years from now, that's like an interminable amount of time for communities that are facing the brunt of the impacts right now. Are you calling for a ban on fossil fuel lobbyists at the UN Climate Summit? Absolutely. You know, we can criticize this process in any number of different ways. It's been 30 years.

It hasn't delivered what we need. A big part of that is the president's, as you say, of fossil fuel lobbyists at this talk. So it's fossil fuel lobbyists, it's intransigent global North governments, and part of the reason that they're so intransigent is those fossil fuel lobbyists that have their ears. So, yes, absolutely. They do not belong at talks that are designed to solve the climate crisis, which means getting rid of fossil fuels altogether. If you can talk, if you can talk, Brandon, about the Belem Declaration, I want to get Jonathan's view on this as well. So on the one hand, you have the COP 30, not mentioning fossil fuels. But I think what Lula will focus on, the Brazilian president, as he did as he headed to G20 and was there this weekend, was what's called the Belang Declaration.

Explain that. So the Belen Declaration is essentially a coalition of countries that want to, or at least say they want to move on fossil fuels, and are frustrated with the U.S. climate negotiations because it is a consensus-based process. And so you can have individual countries blocking progress. And so they want to take something outside of this process and move forward on phasing out fossil fuels with a sort of coalition of the willing, if I can use that term. And so this is a genuinely exciting development. This is the kind of energy that we need. We need all the initiatives we can get to phase out fossil fuels. And I might add to stop deforestation. That's sort of the second part of this that you have thankfully

mentioned, but a lot of people forget about phased out fossil fuels and stop deforestation. We need all the initiatives they can get. We can get. And so the fact that they've started something outside the COP, you know, that is an exciting development. I'm glad also that John Nathan mentioned the exciting development also that came within the cop process, which is the conversation on just transition. This is about how do we actually have a transition from a fossil fuel-based economy that doesn't leave communities and workers and ordinary people behind. We did have some incremental progress on that at this cop, which mitigates an otherwise very bad outcome.

And I don't think we would have gotten that outcome if the U.S. had been there. Jonathan Watts, you mentioned the large presence of indigenous people. I think nearly 1,000 were credited. Thousands more were outside, though there were serious repression of those that tried to go from the outside in last Friday, the indigenous leaders actually shut down the cop for a few hours. But I want to talk about the dangers indigenous people and their allies face, who are land defenders, who are water defenders.

You are an editor of the book, and I went to a bookstore in Belling last week, where you, as well as others spoke, how to save the Amazon, a book by Dom Phillips, the Guardian reporter, at one point, I think he was a Guardian reporter, who was murdered together with the Brazilian Bruno Pereira, when they were investigating what was happening in the Amazon. If you can talk about the dangers people face, and then I'd like to make my way into what's happening with Bolsonaro right now and how he enabled so much of this, a man who's about to go to prison, who President Trump has defended the former president of Brazil. But start with the dangers people face. Sure. Something like 200 environmental or land defenders are killed around

the world every year. It's an incredible toll. It's the toll of a war, and this is a war against nature. Dom Phillips, who worked for the Guardian, but he was a freelancer also for the Washington Post and many other organizations, he wanted to write a book where he asked as many people as possible how to save the Amazon, so from a position of great humility to try to understand. He found out just how dangerous it was when he was traveling with an indigenous expert called Bruno Pereira, who is a Brazilian, who worked for the government, worked with indigenous people for a long time.

And he was targeted and killed. Dom witnessed it and paid the price. This case got a lot of attention because Dom had a lot of journalist friends, and frankly, because he was from the Global North. But these kind of cases are happening all the time. It's often unreported. very often it's indigenous people who are killed. And going back to the conference a little, there was this kind of contradiction.

There were more indigenous people inside than ever before, including Brazil has for the first time got an indigenous minister and many senior indigenous leaders were in the blue zone, the main negotiating area. But they weren't there for the final talks. And that's something that really needs to change. So the people on the front line, the people who know the forest best and other biomes are best are represented and their voices are heard when these kinds of decisions are made. And we're going to do another show on how to save the Amazon, this book that has just come out. But I wanted to ask Brandon Wu, as you come back from Belang,

where you think the global movements to deal with the climate catastrophe are headed. And the significance of this Columbia meeting that's happening in just months from now, the leadership of Petro, the president of Colombia, they're going to be doing it in conjunction with sponsoring it of a country of the north, of the Netherlands. Talk about the significance of that. I think this is really important. I think Colombia's initiative, President Petro's initiative on this has been really admirable. And I also think that none of this is going to happen unless there is more ambition and more finance coming from the big global north countries,

including the United States. Obviously, the political situation is difficult. Politics are difficult everywhere. But here in the United States, you know, I think what Trump has done over the past year has really shown that the line we've heard from the U.S. and other rich countries over the past 30 years in these negotiations, which is that we don't have the money to give to the global south to enable a worldwide transition away from fossil fuels. That's just a lie, right? We have been fighting too thin nail for $100 billion a year, which was the original goal for climate money flowing from global north to global south. It's now $300 billion is a new goal. It's still far too little. But, you know, the response from the U.S. and the EU has been, we just don't have the money.

But this year, we saw the Trump administration just sort of magic up $200 billion for ICE and CBP. right we have consistently magiced up lots of money for Israel our military budget is nearing a trillion dollars we subsidize fossil fuels to the tune of tens of billions of dollars it's just not true that the money isn't there and i think it's it's actually quite useful that this administration is showing how much of a lie that is and so in answer to your response about the role of movements you know i think our movements especially in those wealthy developed countries really have to lean on our governments to show how the money is there. It's just the political will that's not, and it's up to us to change that. And I want to end by asking about former Brazilian President Jair

Bolsonaro, Jonathan. He was just arrested this weekend after there was evidence that he tampered with his ankle monitor while under house arrest. The arrest ordered by the Brazilian Supreme Court Justice de Mareche over fears that he would, Bolsonaro would attempt to escape his compound days before he was headed to a 27-year prison term back in September, sentenced to that for plotting a military coup and assassination against Brazil's current president, Luisina Sia Lula de Silva. Can you talk about the significance of what happened? His son was calling for Brazilians to rally at the compound and to fight. It was feared in the chaos he might escape to what the U.S. embassy there or the Argentine embassy there.

Why don't you summarize the significance of this moment, even in terms of climate change? This is hugely, hugely important. We are in a battle around the world between those who want to keep the world habitable and those who want to just exploit it until there's nothing left. And Brazil is one of the front-line states. The global south is bearing the brunt of this. The global north absolutely has more responsibility and should be doing a lot more. and it's politicians on the far right of which Bolsonaro, Jaya Bolsonaro, is one of the figureheads,

at least in Latin America, that are pushing forward this extractivist agenda, come what may. This leads them very often towards authoritarianism, and we're now seeing that, of course, in the United States as well. And so I think it's hugely significant that the Brazilian courts stepped up, intervened, and have put Jaya Bolsonaro behind bars. And what's really important is it's not just Jaya Bolsonaro. Several of Brazil's top military generals have also been sentenced. And this is so historical.

It was up until 1985, Brazil had a military dictatorship. And after that, there was a kind of an amnesty. 30 seconds. Sorry. We have 30 seconds. Oh, okay. Just look, it's really important that when people break the rules, they're punished for it. And that someone like Jaya Bolsonaro, who while he was president, oversaw the greatest destruction of the Amazon in any recent presidency. It's great that he's not above the law, that there isn't impunity.

But there will be a fight back. You can be sure this is not over. Jonathan Watt, I want to thank you for being with us, the Guardian's global environment writer, speaking to us from Belém, Brazil. where the U.N. cop took place, and Brandon Wu, Director of Policy and Campaigns at ActionAid USA, just back from Belém. I'm Amy B. Goodman, also just back from Belam.