Democracy Now! Audio - Democracy Now! 2025-12-11 Thursday

Episode Date: December 11, 2025

Headlines for December 11, 2025; Is War Next? U.S. Seizes Venezuelan Oil Tanker as Anti-Maduro Campaign Escalates; “Slow Poison”: Scholar Mahmood Mamdani on New Book About Uganda, Decolonization & More; “My Advice to Parents Is Learn from Your Kids”: Mahmood Mamdani on Raising Zohran, NYC’s Next Mayor; “Slower Form of Death”: Despite Ceasefire, Israel Keeps Killing in Gaza as Winter Storm Floods Tents

From New York, this is Democracy Now. As you probably know, we've just seized a tanker on the coast of Venezuela, large tanker, very large. largest one ever sees that, and other things are happening, so you'll be seeing that later. In a major escalation, U.S. troops seize an oil tanker off Venezuela's coast, a day after U.S. fighter jets fly over Venezuelan airspace.

We'll get the latest on the U.S. military threats, then acclaimed academic and writer, Mahmoud Mamdani, author of the new book Slow Poison, Idi Amin, Yoeri Moussevani, and the making of the Ugandan state. He's also the father of New York mayor-elect Zoran Mamdani, who was inspired by his father's civil rights activism in the 60s as a young Ugandan student in the United States. My father got on that bus. He marched. He was hosed down. He was thrown in jail. He was given one phone call. And he called the Ugandan ambassador to the United States. He said, can you? you get me out of jail. The ambassador said, what are you doing in jail? We sent you there

to study. My father said, you sent me here as a gift for our freedom. They are fighting for theirs. It's one and the same. And finally, to Gaza, where winter storm, Byron is battering, displaced Palestinian families with rain and freezing temperatures. We have been humiliated by the war, by the winter, by the conditions we are in, from the morning to the night, we drown. The kids and the clothes are all drenched. All that and more. Coming up. Welcome to Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. U.S. forces seized a tanker loaded with crude oil off the coast of Venezuela Wednesday as the Pentagon ramps up its military buildup in the Caribbean ahead of possible strikes on Venezuela. Attorney

General Pam Bondi announced the seizure of the 20-year-old tanker named the skipper in a social media post accompanied by video showing soldiers repelling from helicopters and pointing weapons at sailors. Bondi said Coast Guard. FBI and Homeland Security officers carried out a seizure warrant for the tanker, which he said was used to transport sanctioned oil from Venezuela and Iran. At the White House, President Trump confirmed the raid. As you probably know, we've just seized a tanker on the coast of Venezuela, a large tanker, very large. Largest one ever seized, actually. We're interested in the seizure as tanker. What happens to the oil on this ship? Well, we keep it, I guess.

Venezuela's government condemned the seizure as an act of international piracy. It comes after the Pentagon carried out more than 20 strikes on alleged drug. drugboats that human rights groups have condemned as murder. Meanwhile, President Trump signaled Wednesday he may expand his attacks on alleged narco-traffickers to Colombia, following up his threats against Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro with a new threat against Colombian President Gustavo Petro. Colombia is producing a lot of drugs. They have cocaine factories that they make cocaine, as you know, and they sell it right into

the United States. So he better wise up. Or he'll be next. He'll be next, too. We'll have more on this story after headlines. In Gaza, hundreds of thousands of displaced Palestinians are struggling to stay warm and dry as a fierce winter storm brings heavy rains and flash flooding to the territory. Forecasters are predicting two months' worth of rain to fall on Gaza within just two days, threatening to flood makeshift-tense housing families.

Already the storm has claimed at least one life. Eight-month-old, Rahaf Abut Hazar, died of cold exposure earlier today after water flooded her family's tent in Khan Yunis. Meanwhile, Israel's military continues to violate the U.S. brokered ceasefire deal that agreed to in October. Health officials report four bodies and ten injured Palestinians were brought to hospitals over the last 24 hours. That brings a number of Palestinians killed since the October 10th truce was declared to 383. This is Um Abda Jarjawi, the aunt of a Palestinian killed an Israeliirstrike Monday. They were sitting in their home thinking they were safe, because there is a ceasefire and nothing is happening. He was bombed while he was at home.

His mother was few steps away from him. God saved her. There is no safety here. There is no consideration for the ceasefire. The war is still going on. People are bombed every day in their. homes. In Britain, five political prisoners awaiting trial for supporting the banned protest group Palestine Action have been hospitalized due to deteriorating health as a result of hunger strikes. It's now

the largest coordinated hunger strike in UK prisons since the 1981 Irish Republican protests led by political prisoner Bobby Sands. On Capitol Hill, the House of Representatives has passed the $901 billion NDAA, that's the National Defense Authorization Act. Combined with the supplemental bill passed earlier this year, the NDAA would expand

the U.S. military's budget to over $1 trillion. The bill drew bipartisan support passing on a vote of 312 to 112 with 94 Democrats and 18 Republicans in opposition. Minnesota Democratic Congresswoman Ilhan Omar voted no.

She said it was because, quote, Congress cannot continue writing blank checks for endless war while millions of Americans struggle to afford housing, health care, and basic necessities, unquote. The chair of the National Transportation Safety Board warned Wednesday, a section in the National Defense Authorization Act would weaken safety measures near Ronald Reagan, Washington National Airport. NTSB Chair Jennifer Hammondy specifically cited the board's investigation into the January 29th collision between an Army helicopter and a commercial jet that killed 67 people.

The investigation found the military helicopter was not using enhanced tracking technology. The recently passed defense authorization bill creates a waiver for military aircraft to turn off their enhanced tracking software while flying on national security missions through parts of the Washington, D.C. airspace. is a significant, significant safety setback. It represents an unacceptable risk to the flying public, to commercial and military aircraft, crews, and to the residents in the region.

It's also an unthinkable dismissal of our investigation and of 67 families, 67 families who lost loved ones in a tragedy that was entirely preventable. This is shameful. In economic news, the Federal Reserve voted Wednesday to cut interest rates by a quarter point for the third time this year. But the vote to reduce rates was split nine to three. Usually the Fed votes unanimously when making major changes to the interest rate. This comes as the U.S. economy is reeling from tariffs,

immigration crackdowns, and cuts to government spending. And despite inflation and unemployment ticking up in September, not to mention four months of job losses over the past six months, President Trump offered an optimistic assessment of the U.S. economy. But I do want to talk about the economy, sir, here at home. And I wonder what grade you would give. A-plus. A-plus.

A-plus, plus, plus, plus, plus. President Trump was doing an interview with Politico. More than 200 environmental groups are demanding a national moratorium on the construction of data centers in the U.S. Until new regulations are put in place in an open letter addressed to Congress, the groups which include Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, Food and Water Watch, right, quote, the rapid largely unregulated rise of data centers to fuel the AI and crypto frenzy is disrupting communities across the country and threatening Americans' economic environmental clients. and water security, unquote. Vermont's independent Senator Bernie Sanders urged opponents of AI data centers to keep up the pressure against elected officials. In community after community, Americans are fighting back against status centers being built

by some of the largest and most powerful corporations in the world. They are opposing the destruction of their local environment, soaring electric bills, and the diversion of scarce water supplies. Nationally, how will continued construction of AI data centers impact our environment? A new report on global inequality shows the wealthiest. 0.001% of multimillionaires and billionaires

hold three times more wealth than the poorest half of humanity. Publishers of the World Inequality Report say their findings show the global wealth gap is much larger than most people imagine, with fewer than 60,000 wealthy people holding unprecedented financial power, while billions of the world's poor remain cut off from even basic economic stability. A federal judge in California has ordered the Trump administration to end its deployment of National Guard forces to Los Angeles and to return control of the troops to California Governor Gavin Newsom. District Judge Charles

Breyer issued the preliminary injunction Wednesday after rejecting government claims that protests against Trump's immigration crackdown in L.A. amount to a rebellion. But Judge Breyer put the decision on hold until next Monday to give the Trump administration time to appeal. President Trump's officially launched a visa program that provides a pathway for wealthy non-citizens to get expedited permission to live and work in the United States for a million-dollar payment. visitors can obtain a Trump gold card that promises to expedite U.S. residency applications in record time. The administration says they'll soon offer a $5 million Trump platinum card, allowing visitors to avoid paying some U.S. taxes. Separately, new U.S. Customs and Border Protection Rules published this week would require visitors from 42 countries on the Visa Waiver Program to provide up to five years of their social media,

history, along with telephone numbers, email addresses, and biometric data, including DNA, face, fingerprint, and iris scans. This comes after the Trump administration recently told green card holders on the cusp of becoming U.S. citizens that their naturalization ceremonies have been canceled. Among those affected were immigrants who lined up at Boston's Faniel Hall last week and prepared to pledge allegiance to the United States. States. The group project citizenship told radio station WGBH, quote, officers were asking everyone what country they were from, and if they said a certain

country, they were told to step out of line and that their oath ceremonies were canceled, unquote. In Burma, at least 33 people were killed after forces loyal to the country's military leaders bombed a hospital in Rakhine State. The airstrike left dozens of people injured, including 27 in critical condition. The attack came on International Human Rights Day and ahead of election set for the end of December. Burmese opposition groups are boycotting the election after major political parties were barred from running by the ruling military junta. And Bolivia's former president, Luis Arse, has been arrested in the capital of Pas as part of the government's investigation into alleged graft. Arce is accused of authorizing

transfers from the public treasury to the personal accounts of political leaders when he served as economy minister under former president to Evo Morales. And those are some of the headlines. This is Democracy Now. Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. And I'm Narmine Sheikh. Welcome to our listeners and viewers across the country and around the world. In a major escalation, U.S. troops seized an oil tanker off the coast of Venezuela a day

after U.S. fighter jets flew over the Gulf of Venezuela, the closest the U.S. has come to the country's airspace. Attorney General Pam Bondi released video showing U.S. forces repelling from helicopters and pointing weapons at sailors. Bondi claimed the tanker had been used to transport sanctioned oil from Venezuela and Iran. President Trump confirmed the raid while speaking with reporters at the White House. As you probably know, we've just seized a tanker on the coast of Venezuela, a large tanker, very large. largest one ever seized actually and other things are happening

so you'll be seeing that later and you'll be talking about that later with some other people we're interested in the seizure of this tanker what happens to the oil on that ship well we keep it I guess when's it come what does it go to when you have to follow the tanker you know you're a good newsman just follow the tank

do you know what I was going to follow it get a helicopter follow the tank I assume we're going to keep the... The Venezuelan government denounce the action calling it blatant theft in an act of international piracy. Venezuelan president, Nicolas Maduro, spoke in Caracas Wednesday. Anyone who wants Venezuelan oil must respect the law, the Constitution, and national sovereignty, and get down to producing, invest, and sell our oil.

Venezuela, an oil colony, never again. Neither a colony nor slaves. He also started singing, Don't worry, be happy. The U.S. seizure of the oil tanker comes as the Pentagon ramps up its military buildup in the Caribbean ahead of possible strikes on Venezuela. Since September, the U.S. has carried out more than 20 deadly strikes on alleged drugboats in the Caribbean and the Pacific, though they've never offered.

evidence. Meanwhile, on Wednesday, the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to the right-wing Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Chorina Machado. On Tuesday night, hundreds of protesters marched in Oslo to condemn the selection of Machado, who supported Trump's threats against the Venezuelan government. In October, she dedicated the Peace Prize to President Trump. Machado did not attend the prize ceremony on Wednesday, but later appeared in Oslo waving to supporters from the balcony of her hotel. She spoke at the Norwegian Parliament today. CNN reports the United States gave her support to travel to Oslo from Venezuela, where she'd been in hiding. She apparently last step flew from Bangor, Maine to Oslo. We're joined by Alejandro Velasco, associate professor

at New York University, where he's a historian of modern Latin America. Velasco is a former executive director of NACLA report on the Americas and the author of Barrio Rising, urban popular politics and the making of modern Venezuela. He was born and raised in Venezuela. Welcome back to the show, Alejandro. So if you could comment on these latest developments, the U.S. coming, the closest it has to invading Venezuela's airspace, and then also Machado receiving the Nobel Peace Prize. Yeah, no, for sure. the one hand, you have to think of it as an escalation on two fronts. The most apparent front, of course, is the military escalation, even though they're calling it a legal maneuver, more of a

high-sea stakes kind of operation. In fact, the United States has amassed the greatest number of troops in the 21st century in the Caribbean. And so this absolutely escalates this kind of war of chicken with the Venice One government. But it's also, in some ways, an escalation of a legality. The United States has, in the past, seized Venezuelan assets and now controls millions of Venezuelan Citgo assets, that is essentially, you know, kidnapped for ransom in the United States. The UK has also, you know, held Venezuelan gold in the wake of 2019's crisis that saw Juan Guaido become sort of interim president, self-proclaimed. And so that kind of, that kind of of escalation is very significant, worrisome. It's been interesting that the Venezuelan government's

reaction has been really disciplined. They've not fallen into the trap of trying to be goaded into some kind of response that would surely bring greater military action on the part of the United States. Now, on the other hand, of course, you have the Maida-Machala ceremony. She had said that she would not leave Venezuela until the final battle is won. And so now the question is, will she be able to return, or will she run the fate of many Venezuelan politicians in the opposition who've, you know, lived out their promise in exile? But was she under a travel ban? She'd apparently not seen her own children. Her daughter received the prize in her stead. She had not seen the kids for a year or possibly two. What kind of ban was she under? So the Venezuelan government had

an arrest warrant on her. And so they had alleged that she had violated campaign loss, political, actions as well. And so certainly she was under hiding. And of course, her concern was if she was going to be detained, then she might suffer the consequences of torture or other kinds of violations. But of course, her profile is so significant and so high profile that it's also somewhat far-fetched to imagine that the Venezuelan government would in fact detain her rather than, in fact, see what she's doing now, which is to leave. Let me play. Marina, Corina Machado, speaking at the Norwegian Parliament today. I am very hopeful Venezuela will be free, and we will turn a country into a beacon of hope

and opportunity of democracy. And we will welcome, not only the Venezuelans that have been forced to flee, but citizens from all over the world that will find a refuge as Venezuela used to be decades ago. On Tuesday night, hundreds of protesters marched in Oslo to condemn the selection of Machado for the Nobel Peace Prize because she supported Trump's threats against Venezuela. In October, she dedicated the Peace Prize to Trump. This is Lena Alvarez of the Norwegian Solidarity Committee for Latin America in Oslo. We are here at a demonstration organized together with a broad alliance of the Noreka. Norwegian Solidarity and Peace Organizations, where we are highlighting that the Nobel Prize is

being used to legitimize military intervention. This year's Nobel Prize winner has not distanced herself from the interventions and the attacks we are seeing in the Caribbean. And we are stating that this clearly breaks with Alfred Nobel's will. So, Professor Velasco, if you can comment on this, and then talk about this tanker. President Trump boasted it's the largest tanker ever. seized? It's hard to parse the Nobel Prize committee's selection and then how they have proceeded over the last few weeks since the announcement. The history of the Nobel Prize being

awarded to politicians and opposition politicians is, let's just say, not a very storied one. More recently, of course, you have Barack Obama who had been awarded the prize, and before that, Aung San Suu Kyi, the Burmese politician. And at the time, they said that these were more aspirational, awards for hopefully what would come if they, in fact, reached the kind of power that they wanted. But in both of those cases, of course, we did not see peace. We saw in the case, unfortunately, of Obama, you know, war, and of Anastan Suu Kyi, an authoritarian turn. So part of the question here is why would the Nobel Prize Committee take another chance, an opposition politician who has been so vocal in requesting and demanding an armed intervention of her country?

Even, of course, as on the other hand, she would say, like, well, we want peace and we want democracy. This is what the Norwegians, the prime minister conversation was like. So that's on the one hand. What is going on with the Norwegians who have in the past tried to broker some kind of negotiation with the Venezuelan government? But in terms of course of the oil question, it's a kind of a two-handed approach. You have this seeming carrot of, you know, we seek peace and bringing the Norwegians along. But on the other hand, we're seizing ships. We are launching military aircraft. fighter jets right literally off the coast of Venezuela, all in an effort to try to goad the Venezuelan government

to a kind of misstep that would then justify some military intervention. But what do we know about this ship? U.S. officials, of course, say the ship had been previously linked to the smuggling of Iranian oil. The final destination of the ship was indeed Asia. Can you talk about the claim that the Venezuelan state-owned oil company, PDVSA, is part of a global black market network? So Venezuela's oil, on BEDABSA in particular, has been sanctioned since the first Trump administration. And those, as we call, sectoral sanctions are part of a maximum pressure campaign on the part of the U.S.

to try to force the Venezuelan government out of power. They, of course, you know, withstood that pressure. But it does mean that Venezuelan oil and Venezuelan oil interests and assets abroad as well as domestically are under threat. The paradox here is that Venezuela continues to sell oil to the United States. So on the one hand, we have the seizure of a tanker, and then other tankers that are just finding their way to the United States by way of licenses to be sold in the U.S. market. And so, you know, part of this is this, you know, this larger narrative of Venezuela and terrorism and this axis between Iran and Venezuela and Cuba. But on the other hand, you have the

continuation of politics as normal. So it's hard, extremely difficult to parse what the actual intentions are. So let's talk about Venezuela having the world's largest oil reserves. It's under threat from the United States. And followed by Colombia, on Wednesday, President Trump threatened Colombian president Petro. Colombia is producing a lot of drugs. They have cocaine factories that they make cocaine, as you know, and they sell it right into the United States. So he better wise up, or he'll be next.

He'll be next, too. And I hope he's listening. He's going to be next. I hope he's listening, he says, about Petro. He is going to be next. He also brought a narco-trafficking. It's important to note that in this past week, he pardoned a major narco-trafficker,

Right, the former Honduran President Juan Orlando Hernandez, who was sentenced in a U.S. court to 45 years in prison, served about a year of that, accusers bringing in using all the levers of the Honduran state, military police, helping to facilitate 400 tons of cocaine into the United States. So talk about Colombia. I mean, Colombia has been nothing, if not, a stable partner for the United States in terms of drug interdiction. It continues to be a major oil drug producer and exporter, although Ecuador has now become far more. And of course, Ecuador has a friendly ally to the Trump administration as president currently, and so they're not talking about Ecuador. But what this demonstrates is that it's certainly on the part of Trump, but also on the part of Marco Rubio, Pete Hegeseth, and others in the U.S. government, Venezuela is not the only target.

It's other Latin American governments and questions about narco-terrorism are really, you know, subterfuged claims, in fact, to get rid of leftist governments in the region. This is what we see with Colombia. We've seen all their threats to Mexico as well, which has a leftist government as well. So this has a lot to do with ideology despite the claims that it's impact about drugs. Before you go, I wanted to ask you about what is a national story but also has international significance, this Miami mayoral race, Florida voters, electing a Democratic mayor and the first woman, for the first time a Democratic mayor in 30 years. And a stunning upset,

the former county commissioner, Eileen Higgins received about 59% of the vote defeating the Cuban-born Republican Emilio Gonzalez, who'd been endorsed by Trump. How does this relate to what we're seeing now? Trump reportedly has been extremely affected by these two races this week. One was her upset victory and another, a smaller race in Georgia, in

a Trump region, state legislator, Democrat won this time around. But what about Miami? It's massive, and especially in the worldview of Trump and his ties to Florida in particular, but his sense that Florida was now in the bag

for Trump. And this tremendous upset, and it wasn't even close, right? And we're talking massive, you know, margin, suggests that perhaps the message, the bellicose message, that the Cuban American community, most of the Cuban American community in South Florida. And if you can bring up Rubio in this, the Secretary State and his role in what's happening in Cuban American from Miami. Yes, this sort of stayed Cold War era discourse being brought up again. What it suggests is that it's perhaps run a bit of its course and the interests of people in Miami, as elsewhere in the country, especially Republican voters,

is much more fixated on, what are you doing for me here at home? Why are we worrying about interventions abroad? What are you doing for us here at home? And this is a tremendous warning, I think, to the Trump administration, Trump in particular, that the shift, the focus has to shift to domestic interests, especially around the economy, rather than these war games with tremendously high stakes in the Caribbean. Well, we want to thank you, Alejandro Velasco, for joining Joining us, Associate Professor at New York University, historian of modern Latin America, former executive editor of NACLA Report on the Americas, author of Badiou Rising, Urban Popular Politics, and the Making of Modern Venezuela.

Coming up, acclaimed academic and writer Mahmoud Mamdani. He's author of the new book Slow Poison. He's also the father of the New York mayor-elect. Zoran Mamdani. Stay with us. Yesterday I saw you standing there With your hand against the pain Looking out the window

At the ring And I wanted to tell you All your tears were not in vain But I guess we both knew We'd never be the same Never be the same Why must we hide all this feeling? inside

lion. Peaceable Kingdom by Patty Smith performed at Democracy Now's 20th anniversary as we move into our 30th anniversary this February. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org.

I'm Amy Goodman with Nermine Sheikh. We turn now to the acclaimed academic and writer Mahmoud Mamdani, author of the new book, Slow Poison, Idi Amin, Yueri, Museveni, and the making of the Ugandan State. Professor Mamdani has taught at Columbia University since 1999.

He's the author of many books, including Good Muslim, Bad Muslim, America, the Cold War, and the Roots of Terror. He's also the father of Zaharan Mamdani, New York City's mayor-elect. Mahmoud Mamdani was born in Uganda and first came to the United States in the 1960s to study. He later returned to Uganda but was expelled in 1972 on the orders of Idi Amin, who'd seized power in a 1970s. coup. After years in exile, Mamdani eventually returned to Uganda where Zaharan was born. In a minute, Professor Mamdani will join us. But first, let's turn to a short clip of his son, Zoran Mamdani, speaking at Reverend Al Sharpton's National Action Network in June while he was running for mayor. I was born in Kampala, Uganda, in East Africa. I was given my middle

name Kwame by my father, who named me after the first prime minister of And decades ago, in Uganda, we won our independence from the British in 1962. We can clap for that. And when we did, the United States government gave the Ugandan government 23 scholarships as a gift for independence. And my father won one of those scholarships. He came to this country to study to be an engineer at the University of Pittsburgh. And some time into his studies, his face buried in his book,

his book he heard the words reverberate in the corridor around him which side are you on which side are you on these were words being sung by members of snick the student nonviolent coordinating committee recruiting students to get on the bus to go to montgomery alabama and my father got on that bus he marched he was hosed down he was thrown in jail he was given one phone call and he called the ugandan ambassador to the united states he said can you get me out of jail the ambassador said what are you doing in jail. We sent you there to study. My father said, you sent me here as a gift for our freedom. They are fighting for theirs. It's one and the same. And so I was raised with this understanding that freedom and the fight for it is interconnected. That was mayor-elect now,

Zoran Mamdani, speaking in June about his father, our guest, Columbia University professor Mahmoud Mamdani. We welcome you back to Democracy Now, Professor Mamadani. We welcome you back to Democracy Now, Professor Mamdani. While everyone probably asks you about your son, we thought it would be interesting to start with your son talking about you. And in fact, what's unusual about your new book Slow Poison is you really talk about your own political awakening and activism from Uganda to the United States and going south, identifying with the civil rights movement in Montgomery, this very end. interesting as we honor the 70th anniversary of the Montgomery bus boycott.

But if you can talk about why you called your book Slow Poison and how your own life fits into this story. Thank you, Amy. Thank you for inviting me. slow poison is about the reversal of the anti-colonial movement the anti-colonial movement fought to create a nation out of a fragmented country fragmented by the British fragmented as a guarantee that no countrywide nationalist movement would arise.

The putting together of a countrywide movement was the singular achievement of the anti-colonial movement. Its refragmentation has been the singular objective of, Yuri Museveni in particular and I speak of slow poison as a gradual piecemeal step by step cutting up of the country so that you no longer have a single

citizenship but you have meaningful participation only in small principalities So Professor Mamdani, you mentioned the anti-colonial movement as attempting to establish a unified polity and creating a country out of the fragmentation that followed British colonialism. And of course, Uganda was not alone in that. If you could speak specifically about the policy of divide and rule, which you've written about extensively, and how you've seen that play out. in post-colonial Uganda following formal decolonization?

Well, the policy of divide and rule sums up what we today call identity politics. It is about encouraging the narrowest possible identification on the part of each section of the colonized community. And this narrow identification pits them against one another as competitors on the political chessboard. So it's only the power at the top which decides the nature of the whole community. What is the whole community about? what is its mission, what is its goal.

These are not questions answered on the ground below. And Professor Mamdani, if you could, your book, of course, focuses on these two seminal leaders in Uganda's post-colonial history, Idi Amin and Uwedi, Museveni. Could you talk about how they approached, you mentioned this earlier, questions of indigenity, you know, who qualified as a citizen, what kind of. citizen in post-colonial Uganda. The question of that and of belonging, who belonged, who did not belong, the two divergent paths that these leaders took. And Museveni, of course, has now been in power for over 40 years.

Well, Idi Amin has a tortured career. Idi Amin is recruited in the British Army, a child soldier. He is trained as a counterinsurgency expert. Counter insurgency is really a polite name for state terrorism. He comes to power with the direct assistance, not only assistance, but organization carried out by British and Israeli officers and troops in Uganda. Ithia mean, his first state visit is to Israel and then to Britain. And he realizes during that state visit that actually he is expected to be a great full stooch. He's humiliated. He comes back, determined, to turn things around.

And this is where begins his. sort of rebirth. The rebirth is about bringing together Uganda as a single country, as a single people, and this notion of a single people is basically as a black nation. Idi Amin inherits this from his mother, who has been an avid participant in a movement titled Africa for Africans. this notion of black nation excludes people of Indian descent and it's actually a legacy of British colonialism because British colonialism divided the population into two into those indigenous and migrants

and migrants were not supposed to be part of the nation. Migrants had hardly any political rights, but migrants were beneficiaries of colonial rule in a small petty sense. So, I mean, so migrants as the front paw of British colonialism. And he, starting with, people of Asian descent, he began to expel them from the country. Museveni comes in, and he is, he welcomes back the Asian population, but not as citizens.

He welcomes them back as, quote, investors. He portrays them as foreign investors who have come into the country, who will be their temporarily, who will not have any political rights to speak of. And except his notion of the nation is not the black nation. His notion of the nation is pasting together of different ethnic groups, now politicized as different tribes. So it's a narrow, fragmented, piecemeal nation. Well, Professor Mamdani, you,

and your family were among the tens of thousands of Asians who were expelled by the Amin, if you could explain what happened during that expulsion and where you went afterwards.

Well, the expulsion was the end result of a process which has been going on for several years. And this process was back and forth between the Brits and not only the Ugandans, but the East Africans as a whole. The Brits were systematically disenfranchising, papered with British passports, born outside Britain.

And they passed several laws, the main law being the 1969 Commonwealth Immigrate, Act. And East African governments followed on the heel of these and passed legislation making it difficult for those who were non-Uganda citizens to gain trading licenses

or any other rights that would be essential for those living in the country, the right to work, the right to trade, etc. Now, my family was part of this group, and I came back in 1972, and I came back to teach at the university. I was a teaching assistant at the university. And when the expulsion came, I was one of those who was expelled.

I had previously been stripped of my Uganda citizenship. It's a long story, which is there in the book. And I had to go to Britain, and I went to a refugee camp in London, in the heart of London, in a youth hostel in Kensington Church Street. And from there, I came to the Islam after about six months. I got a job offer at the University of Dar eslam. And I came there. And then talk about Professor Mamdani coming here. Earlier this week, a great peace activist, Kora Weiss, died at the age of 91. She was head of the Hague Appeal for Peace, fought against

Vietnam War. But she was also involved with the U.S. African organization that brought hundreds of young East African students to the United States, among them Barack Obama's father. And I believe you were among those hundreds of students who came to this country. Can you talk about now what Zoran, your son was describing about your time in the United States and your affinity for SNCC for the civil rights movement and why you felt the need to speak out here, even as the Ugandan ambassador said, what are you getting involved with internal politics of another country? Well, I was the product of a highly racialized society.

We lived in quarters which were designed by the colonial government for lower middle-class Asians. We played in in grounds, which were also designated for Asian kids. We prayed in mosques where the Muslims, the mosques were limited for Asian Muslims. We went to schools, which were for Asian Muslims. When we were sick, we went to a hospital, an Asian hospital, government-run hospitals. hospital for Asians. So I was brought up in a very racialized environment, and I would ask myself later, how does a kid brought up in this environment undoubtedly tinged with the racial

consciousness of that period? How does this kid turn into an anti-racist militant? And I traced that journey, both in the U.S. and after that, in Tanzania. SNIC was part of that journey. The anti-war movement was also a part of that journey. In Tanzania, the participation in Marxist study groups, the intense study of the anti-colonial movement over the 20th century, was also a part of that journey. So this is what I trace in the book.

So, Mahmoud, Professor Mamdani, if you could talk about what you think, broader lessons are of the experience of Uganda for other post-colonial states. I mean, to what extent do you think it's an analogous experience, not just for states in Africa, but also elsewhere? Well, at one level, this is a book on decolonization. But it's not a book on the theorists of decolonization. whether this is Fanon, Krumah, Gugi.

It's a book about decolonization and practice. It's a book about two leaders who come to power. I mean, at some point, gains an anti-colonial consciousness. Huseveni comes to power with deeply steeped in an anti-colonial consciousness. But they come to power finding that the resources at their disposal are not equal to their ambitions, and they have to cut their cloth to suit their sides. So this is decolonization in practice. This is decolonization by leaders who have to not only make compromises as they move along, but also who change themselves as they make these compromises.

in the case of Moseveni, they become compromised individuals. In the case of Amin, they are determined not to do anything in order to retain power. These are two different persons in that sense. And I pursue this comparison and this analogy through the book. So Professor Mandani, of course, it's a matter of the most remarkable coincidence this book, Slow Poison, was published just as your son was on the precipice of his electoral victory as mayor of New York City. You'd been working on the book, of course, for years and years. But some of the themes in the book have special resonance in this moment for Zoran in New York City,

namely the points you make in the book about how racial, ethnic, and religious minorities come to occupy political positions in the context of majority exclusionary polities. So if you could talk about that in the context of New York City and your son's victory. Well, being a minority, we all know that being a minority brings with it dis privileges, brings with it privations. But also being a minority brings with it a certain privileged perspective. You are never fully part of the society

that you live in, and you are never considered fully a part of that society. So you are in some sense, what W.B. Du Bois called a target of double consciousness. You're part of it, and yet you have a critical eye on it. And this is what gifted individuals from minority positions have been able to utilize to mobilize against the downside of this position. So your son, Zoran Kwami Mamdani, named for the first prime minister, Kwame and Krumah, of an independent to Ghana, will become the first South Asian mayor of New York, the first Muslim mayor of New York, and the youngest in a century.

In your 2020 book, neither settler nor native, you wrote the dedication for Zoran. You teach us how to engage the world in difficult times. may you inspire many and blaze a trail. How prophetic. I was wondering if we could end Professor Mamdani with your advice to parents. Well, let me just make a small correction. He's not the first South Asian mayor of New York.

He's the first African mayor of New York of South Asian descent. I found it very interesting to hear how different groups of people in this country, different observers, different commentators, trace his roots very selectively, whether as South Asian or as Muslim or as African. He's all of these. So my advice to parents is learn from your kids. Be open. the change. And finally, Professor Mamdani, you've talked about the importance, the urgency, in fact, of having leaders whose supporters are united around a set of issues rather than around an individual. You've said, in fact, that the right has been more successful at this than the left.

But now with your son's victory, with Zahran's victory, whose entire campaign was focused on one issue precisely, on affordability. Do you think this indicates a shift and a recognition on the part of the left and of progressives that one should focus on issues rather than individuals? Well, I would say Zerun's entire campaign was focused on two issues. Affordability was one. A critique of the state of Israel was another. And his refusal to budge to soften his critique of the state of Israel, even in the face of millions of dollars being pumped against him, even in the face of big personalities,

including the President of the United States, coming out against him, his refusal to change his stand, convinced the electorate that this was a man of principle, that affordability was not just merely rhetoric, that he could be taken seriously at his word. So it's this combination that made for the success. Zoran has enjoyed so far.

And of course, your next book, Mahmoud Mamdani, is on Israel-Palestine. We look forward to reading it. And we're going to go to a break now and then go to Gaza for the latest news. Mahmoud Mamdani, we want to thank you for being with us, Professor at Columbia University, author of the new book, Slow Poison, Idi Amin, Iweri, Maseveni, and the making of the Ugandan state.

Also the father of the mayor Alexer on Mamdani. Coming up, we go to Gaza in 20 seconds. A, Avaa, Avae Amshi, Marfao al-Amae amshi, marfou on hame tamshi. Juan Amshi, as I walk, written by the Lebanese musical composer Marcel Khalifa, performed right here in New York by the New York City Palestinian youth choir. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. I'm Amy Goodman with Nirmine Sheikh. We turn now to Gaza, where winter storm Byron battered displaced Palestinians with heavy rain and freezing temperatures overnight. Tents and makeshift shelters were soaked and flooded

or washed away entirely. In Khan Yunus, an eight-month-old baby girl, Rahaf Abu Jahaz, Zazar, died from hypothermia. As the day broke, families' face soaked. belongings and lakes of mud and sewage. This is Sami Yassine, a father and amputee, speaking to Al Jazeera. It poured all night and we were flooded. I couldn't move out as I have an amputated arm and shrapnel on my leg that I can't wait in the water. I started shouting and asking people to help get my children out, but they couldn't. The food was spoiled and the tense canopy got blown away.

I don't know what to do. We're joined now by Maureen Kaki, head of mission for Glea International. She's been in Gaza for well over a year. Welcome back to Democracy Now. It's great to have you with us. If you can describe the situation on the ground right now. Thank you for having me back. Right now we are seeing intense rains on the ground.

People's tents are being either washed away or flooded. entirely. People have no respite from this cold, from the wind, from the rain itself. I'm here in Mawasikhan, Yunus, on the beach. The tide has risen, washing away tents, along with the last of people's belongings, and they have nowhere else to go. And could you talk about the access to relief? I mean, what kind of aid is getting in to assist people? Not nearly enough. The Israelis are not allowing in, they continue to block vital aid that could save lives and provide shelter in Gaza. In fact, of the aid that is coming in, least of all is medical supplies and shelter supplies. So what is needed right now? What is Glea International calling for?

We are calling for the Israelis to, at the very least, adhere to their end of the deal of the ceasefire. More than that, a complete end to this de facto. blockade and the uninhibited access of aid into the Gaza Strip. This includes tents and tarps, medical supplies, which are majorly out of stock in the hospitals. Essentially, the situations in the hospitals have not changed since the ceasefire in terms of what's available. And the only way that Gaza can even begin to think about reconstruction is an end to this blockade. Maureen, are military strikes continuing in the midst of these storms?

Yeah, absolutely. East of the yellow line, the bombing has not stopped west of this yellow line, which is the supposed to humanitarian zone. People continue to be targeted by drone strikes. Yeah, as late as November, there were two young boys, Jim A and Faddy, who were going to collect firewood for their families, who approached the yellow line. They are children nine and ten years old.

They did not know what this yellow line was, and they were killed by a drone strike. And these are two of hundreds of Palestinians that have been killed by the Israeli military since the ceasefire went into effect. Finally, do you see this, Maureen, as a ceasefire or not? Absolutely not. Like I said, nearly 400 Palestinians have been killed over 1,000 people. Indians are dying every day in the hospitals due to medical emergencies that could be prevented if they were allowed to have the proper supplies and equipment needed. It is not really a ceasefire.

It's just a slower form of death. And the issue of hunger in the last 15 seconds we have, especially for children? Children continue to face issues of malnutrition because the Israelis are not letting in the agreed upon amount of aid. The food that is accessible in the market is in through commercial routes, which is extremely unaffordable for families who have been out of work and living under bombardment for two years. Maureen Kaki, want to thank you for being with us. Head of Mission for Gleea International speaking from Fann Yunus Gaza. I'm Amy Goodman with Nerman Scheher.