Democracy Now! Audio - Democracy Now! 2026-01-05 Monday

Episode Date: January 5, 2026

Democracy Now! Monday, January 5, 2026

From New York, this is Democracy Now. At my direction, the United States Armed Forces conducted an extraordinary military operation in the capital of Venezuela. The United Nations Security Council is holding an emergency meeting today after U.S. forces attacked Venezuela and abducted Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro and his wife in a nighttime raid. President Trump has claimed the U.S. will seize Venezuela's oil and run the country. So we are going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper, and judicious Transition. We will go to Caracas for response, then speak to two Venezuelan American professors, and we'll talk to Georgetown law professor David Cole.

He says the invasion of Venezuela is not law enforcement, it's imperialism, pure and simple. All that and more coming up. Welcome to Democracy Now, Democracy Now.com. The War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. The U.S. military launched a large-scale attack on Venezuela Saturday to capture Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro and his wife, Celia Flores. Missiles rained down on army bases, airfields, and key infrastructure across the capital, Caracas, and the surrounding region. By 2 a.m., U.S. Special Forces reached Maduro's residents and abducted him along with his wife. They were then boarded onto a U.S. warship and flown to the United

States. President Trump posted an image of Maduro bound and blindfold aboard the USS Iwojima. Maduro and his wife were later held at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, New York, facing criminal charges of narco-terrorism, conspiracy, cocaine importation, conspiracy, and weapons charges. They're now being flown by helicopter to lower Manhattan to appear in federal court. Shortly after the operation, President Trump praised U.S. forces for abducting Maduro and his wife and promised to run Venezuela and seize the country's oil. Venezuela has the world's largest reserves of crude oil. The oil companies are going to go in. They're going to spend money. We're going to take back

the oil that, frankly, we should have taken back a long time ago. lot of money is coming out of the ground. After the operation, Venezuela's Supreme Court officially designated the country's vice president, Delci Rodriguez, as interim president. On Saturday, Rodriguez denounced the abduction of Maduro and his wife and vowed Venezuela is ready to defend itself against the United States. We demand the immediate liberation of President Nicolas Maduro and his wife, Celia Flores, the only president of Venezuela, President Nicolas Maduro.

Everything within the Constitution, we learned it from Commander Chavez in the face of adversities, in the face of coup d'etat, in the face of oil sabotages. We are ready to defend Venezuela. We are ready to defend our natural resources that must be for national development. Soon after her comments, President Trump issued a warning to Rodriguez, telling the Atlantic magazine, quote, if she doesn't do what's right, she's going to pay a very big price, probably bigger than Maduro, President Trump said.

By Monday, Rodriguez posted a more conciliatory message on Instagram, saying her government's ready to work with the U.S., she wrote, we invite the U.S. government to collaborate with us on an agenda of cooperation oriented towards shared development within the framework of international law to strengthen lasting communities. coexistence. Meanwhile, Semaphore is reporting the New York Times and the Washington Post knew of the secret U.S. raid on Venezuela before it was scheduled to begin Friday night, but held off on publishing the story to avoid endangering U.S. troops. A senior Venezuelan official speaking to the New York Times said at least 80 people, including civilians and soldiers, were

killed in the U.S. attack Saturday. The Cuban government said 32 of its citizens had been killed, including military and intelligence personnel in Venezuela. This is Jonathan Mayora, whose home was damaged by U.S. airstrikes. I don't agree with this. No matter what happened, whatever it was, look at everything that happened there, inside, over on that side, too, and in the back as well, all of that. We have to be aware.

We have to have principles. Now I'm hoping for a quick response from the government to help my family. My children, because they nearly killed my kids here. You know, my kids were almost killed. Up there, there were families too. Two elderly women died because of these acts that never should have happened. Because we aren't to blame for what happens in this world. They have their problems and we have ours.

Now look at all this chaos. I don't agree with this, gentlemen. President Trump has also threatened military action against Colombia, Cuba, Greenland, Iran, and Mexico following the U.S. attack on Venezuela. Speaking to reporters Sunday aboard Air Force One, Trump specifically targeted Colombian President Gustavo Petro and claimed without evidence Petro's trafficking cocaine into the U.S. We have a very sick neighbor. It's not a neighbor, but it's close to a neighbor. And that's Venezuela. It's very sick. Columbia is very sick, too, run by a sick man who likes making cocaine and selling it to the United States.

And he's not going to be doing it very long, let me tell you. What does that mean? He's not going to be doing it very long. He's not doing it very long. He has cocaine mills and cocaine factories. He's not going to be doing it very long. So there will be an operation by the U.S. and... It sounds good to me. You know what? But yes.

They kill a lot of people, yeah. In a series of lengthy posts on X, Colombian President Gustavo Petro blasted President Trump saying, quote, stop slandering me, Mr. Trump. Petro called on Latin America to unite against the U.S. saying the region risks being, quote, treated as a servant and slave, unquote. U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio put the Cuban government on notice following the U.S. attack on Venezuela. Rubio spoke to NBC's Meet the Press Sunday. Is the Cuban government, the Trump administration's next target, Mr. Secretary, very quickly? Well, the Cuban government is a huge problem. Yeah, the human government is a huge problem.

So is that a yes? But I don't think people fully appreciate. I think they're in a lot of trouble. Yes, I'm not going to talk to you about what our future steps are going to be and our policies are going to be right now in this regard. But I don't think it's any mystery that we are not big fans of the Cuban regime. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has congratulated President Trump on what he called a perfect operation in Venezuela. He spoke Sunday from an Israeli cabinet meeting in Jerusalem. Regarding Venezuela, I want to express the entire government's support for the determined decision and action of the United States to restore freedom and justice to that part of the world as well.

I must say that across Latin America right now, we are seeing a transformation. in several countries that are returning to the American axis and not surprisingly also to a connection with the state of Israel. We welcome this. We congratulate President Trump on his decision. We also salute the American military forces who carried out a perfect operation. Prime Minister Netanyahu's praise for the U.S. assault on Venezuela came as Israeli forces occupying the Gaza Strip shot and killed at least three Palestinians in separate attacks over the weekend. Among the dead were a fisherman and a 15-year-old boy. Their deaths bring the number of Palestinians killed by Israel in Gaza since the October 10th ceasefire was declared to 414, with more

than 1,100 injured. Meanwhile, in occupied East Jerusalem, over 130 Palestinians from 26 families face imminent eviction from their homes in the neighborhood of Silwan, after Israel's Supreme Court denied their final chance to appeal their evictions. Russia has reaffirmed its support for the Venezuelan government, calling the U.S. attacks extremely concerning and deserving of condemnation. On Saturday, Russia's foreign ministry wrote in a statement, quote, Venezuela must be guaranteed the right to determine its own future without destructive external interference, particularly of a military nature, unquote.

This statement came a day after a Russian missile attack on Ukraine's second largest city, Harkiv, leveling a multi-story residential apartment block, killing two people, including a three-year-old child, while injuring 28 others. Greenland's prime minister, Jens Friedrich Nielsen, fired back against President Trump's threats to take over the autonomous Danish territory Sunday, saying on social media, quote, threats, pressure, and talk of annexation have no place between friends. enough is enough, no more fantasies about annexation, unquote. On Saturday, Katie Miller, the wife of Trump aide Stephen Miller, posted a social media

picture of Greenland, painted in the colors of the United States flag, hours after the U.S. military operation against Venezuela. Last month, President Trump appointed Louisiana Governor Jeff Landry, a special envoy to Greenland. And soon after, Landrie vowed to incorporate Greenland into the United States. On Capitol Hill, as lawmakers returned from their winter recess, top Democrats say the Trump administration has still not briefed members of Congress about the U.S. attack on Venezuela. And as state and house minority leader, Hakeem Jeffries, called Maduro a criminal and authoritarian dictator, but condemned President Trump for using military force without congressional authorization. Senate minority leader, Chuck Schumer, issued a similar statement calling Maduro an illegitimate dictator, while Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, who serves his deputy chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus,

condemned Trump's invasion of Venezuela as blatantly illegal and unconstitutional. Ilhan Omar added, quote, we must vote on a war powers resolution so that the people's elected representatives can have an open debate and vote on the merits of a war against Venezuela. before Trump's regime-change efforts caused further chaos and harm, Congressmember Ilhan Omar said. Protests against the Trump administration's unilateral undeclared war in Venezuela erupted across the U.S. and around the world over the weekend. Anti-war demonstrators took to the streets of Ankara, Brussels, Havana, London, Madrid, Mexico City, and cities throughout Venezuela and across Latin America. Here in the United States, protesters rallied in Chicago, Dallas, Los Angeles, New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, San Francisco, Seattle, Washington, D.C., and dozens of smaller communities from coast to coast. This is Seth Galinsky, who joined protesters outside the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, where President Maduro and his wife, Celia Flores, are being held.

You know, I'm here because I think it's outrageous what the U.S. government did in Venezuela. Venezuela. Whatever you may think of the Maduro government, that's not the issue. But the U.S. government has no right to go into a sovereign country and basically openly say, we're going to take the oil, we're going to take the gold, we're going to exploit the resources. In Iran, human rights groups say at least 16 people have been killed during a week of protests. Speaking to reporters Sunday, President Trump threatened to intervene on behalf of the protesters saying, quote, we are locked and loaded and ready to go. unquote. Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamani responded by saying Iran, quote, will not yield to the enemy, unquote. Human rights groups say at least

582 people have been arrested in protests over soaring inflation and the collapse of Iran's currency. And in Wisconsin, Milwaukee County Judge Hanna-Dougan has resigned. While she appeals her conviction by a federal court on charges, she obstructed federal agents from arresting an undocumented immigrant. She was accused of helping the immigrant leave her courtroom in April to avoid arrest by agents waiting in the hallway. The judge faced calls to resign from state Republicans who threatened to impeach her unless she stepped down. And those are some of the headlines. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the Warren Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman in New York, joined by Democracy Now's Juan Gonzalez in Chicago. Hi, Juan.

Hi, Amy, and welcome to all of our. listeners and viewers across the country and around the world. The United Nations Security Council is holding an emergency meeting today after U.S. forces attacked Venezuela on Saturday and abducted Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro and his wife in what may have been described in what many described as a kidnapping. Delta force troops seized Maduro and his wife from a military base in Caracas. The two have been flown to New York where they're appearing in Manhattan. Federal Court today to face drug and weapons charges.

The U.S. attack reportedly killed about 80 people, including 32 Cubans in Venezuela. Brazilian President Luis Anasio Lula de Silva and other world leaders criticized the U.S. attack. Lula wrote on X, quote, the bombings on Venezuelan territory and the capture of its president cross an unacceptable line. These acts represent a grave affront to Venezuela's sovereignty and set another extremely dangerous precedent for the entire international community, Lula said. Major questions remain about what comes next in Venezuela. On Saturday, President Trump said the U.S. will run Venezuela. So we are going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper, and judicious transition. Trump also said the U.S. will take the oil from Venezuela, which has the world's largest reserves of crude oil.

The oil companies are going to go in. They're going to spend money. We're going to take back the oil that, frankly, we should have taken back a long time ago. On Sunday, Secretary of State Marco Rubio appeared to walk back Trump's comments about U.S. plans to run Venezuela. But on Sunday night, Trump told reporters aboard Air Force One that the U.S. is already in charge. We're dealing with the people. We're dealing with the people that just got sported. And don't ask me who's in charge because I'll give you an answer and it'll be very controversial.

What does that mean? It means we're in charge. Have you spoken with her? We're in charge. Have you spoken with her? No, no, I haven't, but other people. Do you want to? Yeah, at the right time, I will.

In Caracas, Maduro's vice president, Elsie Rodriguez, is being sworn in today. as Venezuela's interim president. On Saturday, she denounced the abduction of Maduro, but on Sunday posted a message on interim saying her government is ready to work with the U.S. In an interview with the Atlantic magazine, Trump threatened Rodriguez saying, quote, if she doesn't do what's right, she's going to pay a very big price, probably bigger than Maduro, Trump said. On Sunday, Venezuelan Defense Minister Vladimir Petrino warned the U.S. may attack other

countries in Latin America. The Bolivarian National Armed Forces firmly rejects the cowardly kidnapping of citizen Nicholas Maduro, constitutional president of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, our commander-in-chief, and his wife, the first lady, Dr. Celia Flores de Maduro, an act carried out yesterday, Saturday, January 3rd, after cold-bloodedly murdering a large part of his security team, soldiers. and innocent civilians. This represents severely a threat against the global order.

If today was against Venezuela, tomorrow it can be against any state, any country. Venezuelan defense minister Vladimir Padrino. Over the past two days, Trump has threatened to take action against Cuba, Colombia, and Mexico. We're going to spend the rest of the hour talking about Venezuela. We begin in Caracas, where we're joined by Andrina, Chavez, reporter based there, her recent piece for drop site news, war of the entire people, Venezuela's grassroots rise to resist Trump's naval blockade. That was before the U.S. bombed Venezuela and abducted the president and his wife.

Andrina Chavez, thank you so much for being back with democracy now. Can you talk about the response on the ground overall, though we spoke on Saturday in an extended discussion, If you can talk about who the people are, who they are saying now are in charge, like Delcee Rodriguez, and the response to the overall attack, we now understand about 80 people died in the process of the U.S. abduction of the president. Yes, so thank you so much for having me again. Just to give you a small recap of events, today is January 5. Two days ago, on January 3rd, Venezuela was attacked by the United States.

We suffered several strides, several bombings on the ground, on civilian populations, on military sites, and also on electrical facilities. So we suffered in Caracas, we woke up around 2 a.m. to the sound of very loud explosions, the fear was indescribable. We realized very quickly that we were in the United States. We now know that they bond at least seven places in Caracas, only the capital. They also found additional places in La Guaira, Miranda, Aragua. In Caracas specifically, what we have seen so far is that some electrical facilities have also been affected by US bombs. And there are now at least dozens of Venezuelan communities, neighborhoods, popular neighborhoods, who are without light, without electricity, and the national company is just trying to fix that problem.

Of course, it's going to be very difficult because an entire electricity entire electrical facilities were destroyed by US missile. So that's what happened. Not right now, what is going out on the ground is that the Venezuelan people are just going to the streets. In an organized way, they are protesting against the EU bombings. They are protesting against the kidnapping of President Nicolas Maduro and his wife, Syria Flores.

Yesterday, I went to a rally that happened right here in Caracas, very near to the middle of Gorespales. People once again, they were denouncing that EOS bombes against Venezuela is an imperialist attack. It is an unjustified military aggression. They were demanded that President Maduro, his wife, are returned to Venezuela. And they were completely rejecting the narrative

that Venezuela needed to be bombed in order to supposedly take down a drug traffic organization that is not true in the Venezuelan people reject the notion that the Venezuelan people reject the notion that the Venezuelan government was in any way related to drug traffic. We all know that the current administration has been lying about this. We have seen it when they have been bombing vessels on the Caribbean and killing civilians without any proof that those vessels,

those small boats on the Caribbean will actually carry in drugs. So we have seen them kill people in the Caribbean without any evidence, without sizing any drugs. And they're doing the same against Caracas. they're doing insane against the Venezuelan government. They are pushing these false charges against President Maduro a false indictment against him in order to justify what they want,

which is a regime change, and that is the bottom line. What is happening in the Minnesota right now, it is an attendant at the regime change. And right now, we have an acting president, which is Vice President DeLess Rodriguez. She is going to be in charge of the Venezuelan executive office from now on, but it is very clear that she has said,

that Nicholas Maduro continues to be president of Venezuela. He is still the constitutional elected president of Venezuela. She is going to be acting at the head of the executive office from now on. Exactly, today we have a meeting from the National Assembly, Venezuela's legislative body. They're going to show in the LC that they're going to officialize that the is now going to be in charge. And they're also going to initiate a new legislative

period in Venezuela. All of these elements, they ratified that Venezuela still has a government. We still have a Bolivarian government. We still have people in power who are facing the situation, who are calling people to resist. And Desi has said it many times now, Venezuela is not going to be a U.S. colony. Venezuela is open to dialogue with the United States, Venezuela is open to cooperation based on respect with the United States. And this is in line with Venezuela and foreign policy. Venezuela has always have a diplomacy of peace, which means that we have been calling the United States for years since Hugo Chavez was president to have bilateral relations to Venezuela based on respect, to start intervening in Venezuela and to respect

Venezuela. So that is what we are seeing right now in Venezuela. Of course, people still have feared that some class is going to happen. We know that Trump threatened to bomb Venezuela again, And something that I've been seeing, speaking to people, both in the rally and in the streets, is that people feel that there's going to be more bombings. So people are being very cautious. I went, yesterday I walked around the capital and I saw people still buying food, buying water, just trying to feel safe somehow that they're going to be able to resist any kind of attack against Venezuela in the coming days of weeks. And Adriana, I wanted to ask you in terms of some of the pronouncements of Delci, Rodriguez, now who's being sworn in as the interim president, appearing to give overtures to President Trump to try to have cooperation between Venezuela and the United States.

What do you make of those comments of her most recently? Yes, so like I said, Elze Rodriguez is not saying anything new. Venezuela has been claiming, has been asking the United States government, not only the Trump administration, but the Biden administration, the Obama administration, even the Bush administration back in the day. Since the very beginning of the Bolivarian process, since Chavez took power, we have been asking the United States to enter into bilateral relations with Venezuela that are based on respect, that are based on sovereignty,

that are based on the principle of non-intervention. So this is in line with the Venezuelan foreign policy. Venezuela is a country that prioritizes diplomacy. And that is what Delci was saying, that we are still open to have bilateral relations based on actual cooperation, based on actual respect at mutual sovereign nations. So of course, Desi,

is following the line of President Maduro, who even during these last few months when the United States was treading in Venezuela, militarized in the Caribbean, bombing people in the Caribbean, President Maduro was still saying we're open to dialogue, and we're open to have cooperation with U.S. in companies, also Chevron. I mean, Venezuela has never been closed to the idea of not having any kind of economic or political cooperation with the United States. We just don't want it to be on the base of them violating our sovereignty. So that is what Desi has been saying.

We're going to break and then come back to this discussion. We're speaking with Andreina Chavez, a reporter based in Caracas in Venezuela. And we're also speaking with two Venezuelan American professors coming up with Miguel Tinkercalas and Alejandro Velasco. And we'll talk to Georgetown law professor, David Korn. Cole, who says the invasion of Venezuela as well as not law enforcement, it's imperialism, pure and simple. Stay with us.

I don't know. I'm going to be the I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm

I'm I'm I'm the I'm and I'm I'm I'm

I'm The late great Randy Weston playing the blues to see his performance in our interview with him, go to Democracy Now.org. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez. Secretary of State Marco Rubio appeared on ABCs this week and was asked by George Stephanopoulos why the Trump administration did not seek congressional authorization prior to attacking Venezuela. Why wasn't congressional authorization necessary? It wasn't necessary because this was not an invasion.

We didn't occupy a country. This was an arrest operation. This was a law enforcement operation. He was arrested on the ground in Venezuela by FBI agents. Red is right and removed from the country. Also speaking on ABC this week, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said the U.S. had no authority to enter Venezuela and oust Maduro. They did not just do ships off the water.

They went inside Venezuela, bombed civilian as well as military places. And it's a violation of the law. to do what they did without getting the authorization of Congress. All of this comes after months of U.S. attacks on boats, who the Trump administration accused of carrying drugs in the Caribbean and Pacific near Venezuela, though not providing evidence. For more, we're joined in Washington, D.C. by David Cole, constitutional law expert, and professor in law and public policy at the Georgetown University

Law Center, former ACOU National Legal Director. He's just written a piece for the New York. review of books. It's headline, Trump's War. The invasion of Venezuela is not law enforcement. It's imperialism, pure and simple. Professor Cole, welcome back to democracy now. Lay out your argument, this key point that they're making, they did not consult Congress, Trump, Rubio, the Trump administration, because this is a law enforcement operation. What does that mean? So it's clearly not a law enforcement operation.

This is an operation that began by summarily executing hundreds of people, over 100 people, on boats who are claimed to be smuggling drugs. It escalated to bombing, a loading dock within Venezuela. It included an embargo on ships to Venezuela. and finally an invasion in which many targets were bombed. We did pull out Maduro and his wife, but that was the excuse. That wasn't the justification, and Trump made that very clear. We are running the country. We are taking its giving access to our oil companies to its oil.

This was not a law enforcement operation. it was an excuse for imperialist intervention. And David Cole, you mentioned imperialist intervention. There have been similar actions by the United States in the past. Obviously, the invasion of Dominican Republic in 1965 to prevent a popular rebellion that was in the process of restoring its democratically elected president. There was also the 1983 invasion of a Greenpeace. by the Reagan administration. And interestingly, we're hearing reported by Cuba that 32 of its

nationals were killed in this most recent attack. Back in 1983, more than 20 Cubans who were assisting the Grenada government were also killed as they were resisting the U.S. invasion. This is obviously not just a one-off of the Trump administration. This is a continuing pattern of the United States and dealing with governments that in one way or another try to exert their sovereignty or independence and contradiction to the U.S.? Your thoughts? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, the whole world order is based on the principle, probably the first principle of international law, that countries have to respect their neighbors, and they can't simply invade a neighbor or any other sovereign nation because they don't.

like the way they are running things there. If Canada were to bomb U.S. drug manufacturers because drugs are being brought across the Canadian border, we wouldn't say that's okay. If Mexico were to bomb gun manufacturers in the United States because our guns are killing thousands of Mexicans every year in Mexico, we wouldn't say that's okay. If Trump said that Biden was an illegitimate president. If Russia invaded the United States and abducted Biden to put him on trial in Russia, we wouldn't say that's okay. The whole premise of the international order is that we respect each other's borders. And when we do this, we just give a green light to Russia. Why should it stop at Ukraine? We give a green light to China. Go into Taiwan. This is really

putting us on, putting the world on a very, very dangerous course. And have we done it in the past? Yes. But our violating the law in the past doesn't justify violations of the law today. And I wanted to ask you now about the status of Maduro. Clearly, he's going to appear in court today. And in terms of, but he will be entitled clearly to a defense. And what's your sense of the first, the whole issue of whether, as a sitting head of state, he can be tried? What will be the issues that the judge in this case

will have to deal with initially after arraignment? Well, head of state immunity is the principal one. That will be, I think, Maduro's first argument, because the principle of head of state immunity is that one country cannot try the head of another country in their courts, not civilly, not criminally. You know, and if anyone should, you know, appreciate the idea of immunity, it would be President Trump, who successfully got the Supreme Court to give him immunity from prosecution even after he leaves office. This is not someone who has left office.

This is someone who was in office, whether legitimately or illegitimately is not our business. and he has head of state immunity. So that's the first and principal issue that the court will have to deal with. Can you comment on President Trump promising to run Venezuela and seize the country's oil saying that that's going to fund this whole operation? Let me play Trump in his own words. The oil companies are going to go in. They're going to spend money. We're going to take back the oil that, frankly, we should have taken back a long time ago.

A lot of money is coming out of the ground. In a moment, we're going to go to Professor Miguel Tinkarsallis, who writes all about Venezuela and oil. But David Cole, the legality of this, this, you know, it reminds me when the U.S. invaded Iraq, George W. Bush, the jokes that were going around a child asking his dad, what's our oil doing under their sand? the same issue here. Can you talk about what he is referring to and what it means to seize the oil, the largest oil reserves in the world? Well, the thing about President Trump is he says the quiet part out loud. So, you know, we have been accused in many other instances of intervening in other countries because we have economic interests that we want to exploit. through force. What Trump did was admit it, out and out admit, that the purpose of this operation is to get their oil.

That is not a law enforcement operation. That is not legitimate under any understanding of international law, of U.S. law, to go and invade another country because they have something we want. It's just not the way the world operates or the world. operates or the world should operate. And, you know, the United States, again, the United States has done it in the past, but generally we have given justifications that at least on the face of it were far better than this one. So we went into Grenada allegedly to protect the students, our students, who were in their medical schools. We went into Panama and pulled out General

Manuel Noriega, but we did so only after Panama had to. declared war against the United States and had killed a U.S. Marine, and we had an Air Force base there and thousands of American citizens. In this instance, there's no even pretense of protecting any Americans. This is about protecting America's financial interests, and in particular, the financial interests of its oil producers. And that is just beyond the pale in terms of international law, U.S. law, basic morality. So we just have 30 seconds. What recourse do those who are objecting to this say, if you say this is illegal,

how is President Trump held to account nationally and internationally? Well, internationally, we need widespread condemnation of this action, and I'm very disturbed by the failure of many of the European states to really speak out strongly on this. They are clearly afraid of President Trump and his economic tactics against them. But we need international condemnation by the UN Security Council, by every country who respects sovereignty. We need Congress to reject an ongoing war in Venezuela. We should not be in Venezuela, period. And so Congress can vote to end this and should. David Cole, we want to thank you for being with us. Professor in Law and Public Policy at Georgetown University Law Center, former ACLU National Legal Director, will link to your piece in the New York Review of books.

Trump's war, the invasion of Venezuela is not law enforcement. It's imperialism, pure and simple. Go to DemocracyNow.org. Next up, two Venezuelan American professors, NYU's Alejandro Velasco, and Pomona colleges, Professor Emeritus, Miguel Tinkert Salas, stay with us. I've been thinking about to talk about greed. I've been thinking about talk about greed. I've been wondering if I was a string

about greed. Trying to find a way to talk about greed. Greed is a poison rising in the land. The soul of the peace. twisted in its command. It moves like a virus, seeking out everyone. Greed never stops to work

has never, ever died. A creeping, choking, killing, invading everywhere. There is really no escaping. Greeds need this now. I've been trying to think about how to talk about greed. How to talk about greed.

I've been trying to think about how to talk about greed. I've been wondering left back what say. Greed by Sweet Honey in the Rock in our firehouse studio decades ago. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the Warrant Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez. As we talk more about the U.S. attack on Venezuela and the abduction of Venezuelan president, Nicolas Maduro and his wife. They are now, as we broadcast, being brought into the federal courthouse in New York,

brought by helicopter from Brooklyn, where they have been placed in the Metropolitan Detention Center. We want to go back to President Trump, speaking about Venezuela's oil on Saturday, hours after the U.S. attack. In addition, Venezuela, unilaterally seized and sold American oil. American assets and American platforms costing us billions and billions of dollars. They did this a while ago, but we never had a president that did anything about it. They took all of our property, it was our property. We built it. And we never had a president that decided to do anything about it.

And instead, they fought wars that were 10,000 miles away. We built Venezuela oil industry with a business. American talent, drive, and skill, and the socialist regime stole it from us during those previous administrations, and they stole it through force. This constituted one of the largest thefts of American property in the history of our country. Considered the largest theft of property in the history of our country. Massive oil infrastructure was taken like we were babies, so we didn't do anything about it. I would have done something about it.

That's President Trump talking about the theft of Venezuelan oil, talking about it as our oil. We're joined by two guests in our New York studio, Alejandro Velasco, associate professor at New York University, where he's historian of modern Latin America, former executive editor of NACLA report on the Americas, author of the book, Barrio Rising, urban popular politics and the making of modern Venezuela. He was born and raised in Venezuela. And Mikhail Tinkersalis is with us. Emeritus Professor of History at Pomona College in Claremont, California, author of the enduring legacy, oil, culture, and society in Venezuela. And the book, Venezuela, what everyone needs to know. Welcome back, both of you, to Democracy Now.

Professor Miguel Tinker Salas, oil is what you've been covering in Venezuela for decades. talk about Trump's comments that it's Venezuela's oil that will fund the U.S. running Venezuela. Well, we heard this with Bush and the Iraq invasion, that the oil from Iraq was going to finance the intervention and the long-term rebuilding. The reality is that that failed in Iraq and it will fail in Venezuela. Venezuela's oil industry has taken a hit in the last 15 years. It is a semblance of what it used to be. And the reality is I cannot imagine any American oil company going into Venezuela, spending billions of dollars to build up an infrastructure without American boots on the ground or without very clear guarantees. And even if they did, the process would take close to a decade.

So Trump is talking the same way he always does. It is an exaggeration. It is an outright lie. And I believe it to be simply another pretext, another excuse to try to convince. convince the American public that what he did had any value. And Miguel Tickersas, I wanted to ask you again, something that we discussed on Saturday in our special report on the Venezuela invasion. This whole notion of Trump, the lie that he keeps foisting on the American public, that it

was the socialist government of Venezuela that took this oil, when in reality the nationalization of Venezuela's oil industry occurred long before anyone had heard of Ullo Chavez and the Bolivarian Revolution. Could you talk about that history as well? Sure. Venezuela was, Venezuelans were always keen on gaining control over its own oil industry. Without a doubt, American and Europeans were present at the beginning of the oil industry, but the actual work was done by Venezuelans. The actual establishment of the industry was done by Venezuelans. And there was always an aspiration that that oil industry would belong to the country and the country could benefit from that more than simply providing concessions to

foreign oil companies. So the nationalization happened in 1975. It was a fully compensated nationalization taking effect on January 1st, 1976. And it was done under the government of Carlos Andres Perez, a social democratic government, not Hugo Chavez. Chavez did close the door to openings that were there for American foreign companies in Article 5 of the reform. And in 2007, there was a clash with Exxon Mobil and Conical Phillips over oil deposits in the Odinocco Basin. And Chevron, I'm sorry, Exxon demanded $16 billion. A court decided that they only owed $1.6 billion.

So you can see from the very beginning that the process of nationalization had been compensated and negotiated, so there was no taking of quote-unquote American property or American oil. It was Venezuelan oil. It belonged to Venezuela, and it was the purview of the Venezuelan government to decide who or what operated those oil fields. And Miguel, I also wanted to ask you about other resources that have not been mentioned, but that clearly American capitalists are salivating over the prospects of getting access to. One is Coltan, a rare metal that is in most laptop computers and phones and has uses for the military, as well as diamonds and gold. You talk about the immense resources that Venezuela has in these other areas.

Oil is only on the surface. The reality is, as you point out, Venezuela is rich in gold. It's rich in rare earths, rare minerals. It is rich in gas, one of the largest deposit of gas in the world. It is rich in lithium. It has potential for tremendous lithium. It has coal. It has other minerals as well.

So that the positioning of the U.S. as a investor in Venezuela or as a corporate interest in Venezuela is massive. It involves not only the country's strategic position is the interface between the Caribbean and South America, but it involves the possession of tremendous mineral deposits and oil deposits. It reminds me of what the American General in charge of the Caribbean during World War II said, if of all the countries of Latin America, I only want one ally, that is Venezuela, because they're beautifully rich in oil and minerals. That has been the position of the U.S. government since 1940 and to the present. I'd also like to bring in a professor, NYU professor, Alejandro Velas,

into the conversation, Professor Velasco, on Saturday evening, you posted on social media that it seemed as if, quote, Maduro was given up by the remaining government apparatus in a back-channel deal. Do you still think that? And what would that mean? And is it your, do you believe that Delci Rodriguez, who is now the, will be now sworn as interim president, was herself complicit in this operation? Obviously, it's somewhat speculative, but clues point in some kind of direction that suggests that that might be the case. One of the things that we do know is that months leading up to, of course, the abduction of Nicolas Maduro and people like Desi Rodriguez, Jorge Rodriguez, and others. Explain Jorge Rodriguez, her brother? Yeah, Jorge Rodriguez is

Desi's brother. He's head of the National Assembly. He is head of the National Assembly, but has held many posts under Chavez's government and then under Maduro's government for years. Both of them have a long story tradition of leftist politics in Latin America. In Venezuela, in particular, their father was a Marxist guerrilla, who was assassinated under the government in the 1970s, and we're closely allied with the United States. And they've really cemented a position in government as being right-hand people to Maduro for sure, with Chavez before him. But what we had seen in the months leading up to the abduction was that Maduro and these inner circle members had been negotiating with the Trump administration, things like

oil deals, things like, you know, other kinds of investment from the United States. But the missing piece there seemed to be whether Maduro would remain in power. And given how quickly the operation unfolded on Saturday, and how quickly it seems that Desi Rodriguez has has been able to consolidate power over the intervening 48 hours, you have to assume that there was some kind of collusion or at least some kind of conversation happening between the parties beforehand. Maduro in exchange for remaining in power,

Maduro in exchange for stability, Maduro in exchange for some kind of open dealing with the United States. Now, of course, the challenge for Dersia and others is, can they straddle this line between, doing in some ways Trump's bidding, and then at the same time maintaining, as Andreina Chavez was saying earlier, a position of sovereignty and mutual respect

of related bilateral relations between Venezuela and the United States. I don't know if they'll be able to do it. And we... And Alejandro... Go ahead. Alejandro, I wanted to ask you also in terms of the ability of Venezuela to maneuver through this situation right now,

you have also raised the issue. that Cuba is also in the focus of the United States in terms of what it's doing in Venezuela. Could you talk about that as well? I have long maintained, and this isn't secret to anyone, that Marco Rubio's primary interest in the region is not Venezuela, it's not Colombia, it's not Mexico, it's Cuba. As a Cuban-American and long stridently, an opponent of the Castro government, and of course now the current government in Cuba, he's made no secret. of his desire to oust the government in Cuba.

The problem, of course, for him is that Cuba has no resources that Trump would be interested in. And so he would have to sell Trump only on the basis of ideology. We have to kill a leftist government. And he now sees an opening with Venezuela. He's now able to say, look, if we can deliver resources from Venezuela through a low-level, deadly, of course, but low-level engagement, we can do something similar in Cuba

and at the same time, deliver not just Cuba and Venezuela, but the rest of the hemisphere to a Trumpist vision of the world. That is my sense of what is largely at stake here. So you have Marco Rubio, hours after the bombing of Venezuela and the abduction of President Maduro and his wife, speaking in the news conference with Trump saying, basically, Cuba better watch out. And then on Sunday, you have President Trump speaking on Air Force One. Cuba is ready to fall, you know. Cuba looks like it's ready to fall. I don't know if they're going to hold out.

But Cuba now has no income. They got all of their income from Venezuela, from the Venezuelan oil. They're not getting any of them. And Cuba literally is ready to fall. And you have a lot of great Cuban Americans that are going to be very happy about this. And then you have President Trump also threatening the Colombian president, Gustavo Petra. Colombia is very sick, too, run by a sick man who likes making cocaine and selling it to the United States, and he's not going to be doing it very long, let me tell you. What does that mean? He's not going to be doing it very long. He's not doing it very long. He has cocaine mills and cocaine factories. He's not going to be doing it very long.

So there will be an operation by the U.S. and... It sounds good to me. So in a lengthy series of lengthy posts on X, I think it was like 700 words, Colombian President Petro blasted Trump saying, quote, stop slandering me, Mr. Trump. Petro called on Latin America to unite against the U.S. saying the region risk being, quote, treated as a servant and slave. So go from Cuba to Colombia and what this means. Well, certainly in the case of Cuba, what President Trump said is accurate insofar as most of the revenue that Cuba had been getting over the past five, 10, 15 years was coming through the subvention of Venezuela and oil. And of course, if they closed that small spigot

that had been a lifeline of Cuba, then Cuba's position is incrementally worse. And you might end up seeing protests that we've seen prior years. And as a result, then, you know, a kind of pretext for intervention. But then if you link that, in what Cuba represents to Latin America, which is a kind of paragon of a different alternative for Latin America as a region, a leftist alternative. With all of its faults that we can, of course, talk about at length, losing that for the region would then open up the door for other countries and other right-wing countries in Latin America or right-wing movements in Latin America to say, now we have a White House in power and no Cuba in present in the region or leftist government in the region to be able to do what we want.

And so to me, this is far larger an ideological project in battle that's being waged with Venezuela as a kind of instrumental piece. Yeah, I'd like to bring Miguel Tinker Salas back into the conversation. And this whole issue of Trump focusing not just on Venezuela, but also on Cuba, Colombia, and how Latin America you expect to respond. because clearly this is not the same Latin America, as I said repeatedly, that existed 50 years ago or 60 years ago. There's many more popular movements, stronger progressive leaders in several countries. What's your sense of how the region is going to respond in the coming weeks and months? I think there's a difference between how political leaders may respond, because obviously someone like Malay or Naboa or Bukele will respond in support.

of Trump, it's another thing how the population of Latin America will respond. And I think that's the big difference here, because as you point out, there has been a tremendous level of mobilization of social consciousness that has occurred. But there's also been the weight of the crisis that has affected many countries in Latin America and left mistakes that have been made in many cases in many countries in their inability to deliver. But I think we're also overestimating U.S. Empire. Because what we saw in Venezuela on Saturday the 3rd, was the spectacle of empire. It was the promotion of empire

while not actually landing troops on the ground. They were unable to do that because they know that that would bog them down in a long-term war and taking on Cuba at the same time and taking on Iran at the same time and taking on bombing's Nigeria at the same time and potentially conflicts in Ukraine

in Asia and Taiwan, etc. I think we should not overestimate the role of a U.S. empire, I think the military in the U.S. would push back to any kind of operation in other countries, because that will be a long-term commitment, because taking Cuba means implying the same old Colin Powell doctrine, the Pottery Bond doctrine that was, if you break it, you own it. So if the U.S. expects to have run Venezuela, they're also going to have to run Cuba, and they're also going to have to run Colombia, and they're also going to expect, I doubt that the U.S. military is prepared for that kind of long-term engagement. That doesn't mean

that I don't believe that the U.S. wants to remake Latin America, the same way that the neocons wanted to remake the Middle East, the current administration under Marco Rubio really wants to remake Latin America. They wanted to be the American pond. They wanted to be the Caribbean that they control. They wanted to go back to Teddy Roosevelt in Guns and Boop diplomacy and big stick diplomacy and control the region. But again, we shouldn't overestimate the role of U.S. Empire. I think we saw on Saturday was the spectacle of empire. I mean, completely agree with Miguel, and that last point that he made is so central. I think what we're seeing here is a return to this gunboat diplomacy that had been the hallmark

of the Teddy Roosevelt period in the early 920th century. I want to ask you, Alejandro, very quickly about President Trump responding to a reporter about the Venezuelan opposition leader, the Nobel Prize laureate, Maria Karina Machado. I think it would be very tough for her to be the leader. She doesn't have the support within or the respect within the country. She's a very nice woman, but she doesn't have the respect. I think many people were shocked that President Trump threw Maria Karina Machado under the bus, the woman who basically dedicated her Peace Prize and said that Trump should have gotten that peace prize.

Where does this leave her? And also talk about the wife of exactly who President Maduro. Laura's wife, Celia Flores, is. She is a key political figure herself. For sure. I mean, let's start with my decorina Machado. And we have 30 seconds. No one could have been more surprised as she was sideline, not just at the press conference, but then double down yesterday. Marco Ruby also saying that she's not ready, you know, to stand in. I think what they, what Machado overestimated was the degree to which

Trump wanted democracy. He doesn't want democracy. He just wants oil, right? And so in that sense, You know, it was unsurprising that she would be sidelined to anyone but her. Celia Flores, 10 seconds. Cilia Flores, you know, long-story career under Chavez, was the head of the National Assembly, significant degree of political power. We'll see what emerges from this trial. And we're going to talk more about this in these coming days

and also remember that President Trump just pardoned the convicted narco-trafficker, Honduran President Juan Orlando Hernandez. I'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez. Thanks for joining us.