Democracy Now! Audio - Democracy Now! 2026-04-14 Tuesday

Episode Date: April 14, 2026

Headlines for April 14, 2026; Exclusive: Former American & Iranian Negotiators on Ceasefire Talks & How War Could End; President vs. Pope: Trump Posts Pic of Self as Jesus, Pope Says Warmakers Have “Hands Full of Blood”

is democracy now. Well, if Iran and the U.S. don't come to an agreement, we see already what's going to happen because it's happened already, death, destruction and devastation of the global economy. And the nuclear issue, Iran would end its membership with NPT, cooperation with the IAA, and ultimately would go nuclear. After a first round of talks between the United States and Iran and without a deal, we'll bring you a democracy now exclusive.

We'll speak to two former negotiators, an Iranian and an American. Rob Malley was a nuclear deal negotiator under President Obama. Hussain Mesaun is a former spokesperson for Iran's nuclear negotiating team with the European Union. A new standoff is underway in the Gulf, raising alarm bells globally for a prolonged energy crisis as Iran continues to block traffic through the strait and the U.S. Navy blockades Iranian ports. What will it take to get a deal? Then the President versus the Pope, President Trump's attacking Pope Leo for opposing the war in Iran. This comes as President Trump posts a picture of himself as Jesus. Christ, then deletes it after outcry. We'll speak with Father James Martin, Jesuit priest,

an editor-at-large of America magazine. All that and more coming up. Welcome to Democracy Now, DemocracyNow, DemocracyNow.org, the Warren Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. China's foreign ministries condemn the U.S. naval blockade of Iranian ports as dangerous and irresponsible, warning against any effort to obstruct Chinese vessels. On Monday, the Chinese defense minister, Dong Jun, said in a statement, quote, we have trade and energy agreements with Iran. We expect others not to interfere in our affairs. The Strait of Hormuz is open to us, he said. His warning came as at least four Iran-linked ships cross the Strait of Hormuz on Tuesday after the Trump administration declared the start of its blockade.

Meanwhile, delegates from the U.S. and Iran could soon return to Pakistan for another round of peace talks after negotiations in Islamabad last weekend failed to reach a long-term deal to end the U.S. Israeli assault on Iran. Reuters and the Associated Press report a date has not yet been decided, though negotiations could resume as early as the end of this week. This comes as the New York Times reports U.S. and Iran have traded proportion. for a suspension of Iranian nuclear activities, with Iran proposing a five-year suspension after the U.S. sought a 20-year moratorium. We'll have more on-negotiations between the U.S. and Iran, after headlines, will be bringing you a democracy now exclusive. We'll speak to two former negotiators, an American and an Iranian.

Hezbollah leader Naim Qasem has rejected. U.S. broker talks between the Lebanese government and Israel, calling the attempted diplomacy futile. Lebanese and Israeli ambassadors are gathering in Washington, D.C. today for a meeting hosted by Secretary of State Marco Rubio, the first direct high-level engagement between Israel and Lebanon since 1993. Asbala is not a party to the talks. This comes as the death toll from Israel's continuing attacks on Lebanon is approaching 2,100, according to the Lebanese Health Ministry. Of those killed by Israel, at least 88 are medics. The International Committee of the Red Cross says an Israeli strike Monday killed one person

in damaged humanitarian vehicles at a Red Cross center in the coastal city of Tyre. Separately, family members and medics gathered at the temporary grave site of paramedic Hassan Badawi, who was killed in an Israeli strike on Sunday. His father says he was targeted by an Israeli drone. The Israelis attacked him. He was just providing aid. He wasn't doing anything else. He spent his whole life doing humanitarian work, and I encouraged him,

and he loved doing the work. In the occupied West Bank, Israeli forces fired tear gas at Palestinian school children who were staging a sit-in protest Monday after settlers blocked access to their school in the village of Ume Achaire in the Masafayata region. The students had been peacefully holding an open-air class when they were gassed. They'd been seeking to return to classrooms for the first time in over 40 days after the U.S. Israeli war on Iran forced schools across the West Bank to close. In the Gaza Strip, Israeli attacks killed at least six Palestinians Monday.

in the latest violations of the U.S. brokered ceasefire that was supposed to have taken effect last October. Meanwhile, a second whistleblower has stepped forward with disturbing details about his time as a contractor with the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, the former U.S. and Israeli-backed organization whose aid distribution centers were condemned by doctors without borders as sites of orchestrated killing and dehumanization, unquote. In his first interview since returning from Gaza, the contractor, David McIntosh, tells drop-site news he witnessed Israeli soldiers in discriminately gunning down Palestinian seeking aid, including children. He also witnessed Israelis using stray dogs for target practice and firing dangerously close to or directly at the GHF contractors themselves.

Gaza's health ministry reports between May and October. of 2025, over 2,600 Palestinians were killed and more than 19,000 wounded at or near aid distribution sites and UN convoys. Here in New York, nearly 100 anti-war protesters led by Jewish Voice for Peace were arrested Monday outside the offices of Senate Democrats, Chuck Schumer and Kirsten Gillibrand, while attempting to stage a sit-in. Demonstrators demanded the Senator used their power to block a pending U.S. sale of thousands of bombs to Israel. Police moved in as activists filled the sidewalks with signs and chants. This is Sonia Mearsson Knox of Jewish Voice for Peace.

Our senators need to listen to their constituents. Right now, the U.S. is continuing to send endless amounts of money and weapons to Israel. As it does that, it is bombing Beirut. It is occupying South Lebanon. It bombs synagogues. universities in Iran, and it is continuing the genocide in Gaza. It is doing this with our weapons that we are sending and our money that we are selling to Israel to buy these weapons. So our senators need to listen to their constituents. Three hundred New Yorkers are here to say,

stop arming Israel. Vermont independent Senator Bernie Sanders said Monday he'll force a vote this week on legislation to block the sale of nearly half a billion dollars worth of bombs and bulldozers to the Israeli military. Meanwhile, House Democratic leader, Hakeem Jeffrey, says Democrats will compel a vote on an Iran war powers resolution now that the House is back in session. In India, the government of the northern state of Uttar Pradesh has raised the minimum wage in response to days of protests by tens of thousands of workers in the industrial hub of Noida. On Monday, protesters demanding higher pay torched vehicles through stones at police who fired volleys of tear gas shells. The protest came as the U.S. Israeli war in Iran has dramatically raised the cost of fuel, fertilizer, and other basic commodities worldwide. Mexico Terraro, the chief economist at the UN's Food and Agriculture Organization, warned a lengthy disruption to trade through the state of Hormuz could result in a global food catastrophe.

The clock is ticking. Because everything that relates to agri-food system is linked to the crop calendar. If we don't follow the crop calendar and we don't have the inputs in the time that is needed, for planting and so on and so forward, that implies that producers will have to produce with less inputs, and therefore they could have lower yields, and that will affect the next season, the next half of the year or the potentially the next year. Another immigrant has died in ICE custody. Alejandro Cabrara Clemente, a 49-year-old man from Mexico, was being detained at the

Wynn Correctional Center in Louisiana. He was reportedly found unresponsive in his cell last week. He's at least the 16th immigrant to die in ICE custody so far this year, and the 47th reported ICE death since Trump returned to office. In related news, federal regulators have cited three contractors and violations following the death of a construction worker last year while the Trump administration rushed to build Camp East Montana in El Paso, Texas, where ICE is now jailing immigrants. Hector Gonzalez was crushed to death by falling construction materials. in July, just days after the U.S. Army awarded a contract worth more than $1 billion to acquisition logistics to build and operate the camp at Fort Bliss. Details of the contract and safety violations were first revealed in a public citizen investigation, while the U.S. occupational safety and health administration, OSHA, declined to cite acquisition logistics over Gonzalez's death that sought penalties

against three subcontractors that help build Camp East Montana. Republican Congressman Tony Gonzalez of Texas and Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California both announced Monday they're resigning from Congress amidst mounting sexual misconduct allegations. Gonzalez admitted to an affair with a former staffer who later took her own life and faces additional accusations of sending explicit messages to a campaign aide.

Meanwhile, Swalwell is facing allegations from multiple women, including a former staffer who says he twice raped her while she was heavily intoxicated. There are now growing calls in Congress for Republican Cory Mills and Democrat Sheila, Chairfulis McCormick, both from Florida to resign. Mills is facing a House Ethics investigation into domestic violence and campaign finance violations. Meanwhile, federal prosecutors and a House Ethics subcommittee have both. accused Chair Phyllis McCormick of illegally funneling millions of dollars in federal disaster relief funds into her own congressional campaign. The U.S. military says it struck an alleged drug vessel in the Eastern Pacific Monday killing two people. The Pentagon offered no evidence that the boat was carrying drugs.

The latest strike comes two days after U.S. military strikes killed five people in two boats also in the Eastern Pacific. The attack brings the total death toll to at least 170 people since the Trump administration began targeting so-called narco-terrorists in the Caribbean, Eastern Pacific, last September. International law experts and human rights groups say the U.S. strikes are likely to be extrajudicial killings. U.S. oil giant Chevron is set to expend oil extraction operations in Venezuela after signing two massive deals with the Venezuelan interim government led by Delsey Rodriguez. She spoke Monday from Krakas after meeting with corporate executives and a U.S. Energy Department official. It will allow us to make significant progress in production, and the revenue generated from that production will go directly to the benefit of the Venezuelan people,

and it will be a shared benefit good for the people of the United States and Venezuela. The agreements are expected to boost U.S. crude extraction in Venezuela's vast or Noko Belt oil-producing region and come in the aftermath of a U.S. military strike on Caracas and the abduction of Nicholas Maduro and his wife, Celia Flores, in January. Delci Rodriguez's interim government has since opened some of Venezuela's key resources to foreign exploitation. More than a hundred of Hollywood's most prominent writers, directors, and actors signed an open letter Monday, voicing their opposition to the proposed merger of Paramount and Warner Brothers Discovery. The letter reads in part, quote, The integrity, independence, and diversity of our industry would be grievously compromised.

Competition is essential for a healthy economy and a healthy democracy. So is thoughtful regulation and enforcement, they wrote. Paramount Skydance announced its intended $11 billion acquisition of Warner Brothers discovery earlier this year after Netflix dropped its bid. Paramount's offer still requires regulatory approval in the U.S. and Europe. If completed, it would create the largest media conglomerate in U.S. history. Spanning news, sports, movies, video games, theme parks, and more, all controlled by Paramount Chair David Ellison, a vocal supporter of President Trump. And a federal judge dismissed President Trump's $10 billion lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal and its owner Rupert Murdoch Monday.

Trump's lawsuit targeted the outlets reporting that he had contributed a letter that included a letter that included a sketch drawing of a naked woman to a birthday album for the late convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein's 15th birthday. The letter was later released publicly by Congress, which subpoenaed the records from Epstein's estate. The judge granted President Trump's legal team a chance to refile an amended lawsuit before April 27th. And those are some of the headlines. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the Warren Peace Report, coming up a Democracy Now exclusive. We speak to two former nuclear negotiators, an Iranian and an American. Stay with us.

So I'm on the mountains. You're going to reap what you're saying. So I'm on the mountains. Rendition of Natalie Coleman and Nora Brown in our Democracy Now studio. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, The War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman in New York, joined by Democracy Now as Juan Gonzalez in Chicago. Hi, Juan.

Hi, Amy, and welcome to all of our listeners and viewers across the country and around the world. We begin today's show, looking at the state of negotiations between the United States and Iran. Delegates from both countries could soon return to Pakistan for another round of peace talks after negotiations in Islamabad failed to reach a long-term deal. Reuters and the Associated press report, a date has not yet been decided, but negotiations could resume as early as the end of the week. The New York Times reports the U.S. and Iran have traded proposals for a suspension of Iranian nuclear activities with Iran proposing a five-year suspension after the U.S. sought a 20-year moratorium. After talks collapsed Sunday, Vice President,

J.D. Vance declared that Iran, quote, chose not to accept our terms, unquote, while Iranian state media blamed, quote, excessive demands, unquote, from Washington for the talks collapse. President Trump then announced a naval blockade of Iranian ports, which Iran is called an act of piracy. Speaking on Fox News, Vance, who led the U.S. negotiations, said the Iranians are engaged in economic terrorism by blocking the strait and that, quote, two can play at that game. Vance also said the ball is in the Iranian court. They basically threatened any ship that's moving through the Straits of Hormuz. Well, as the President of the United States showed, two can play at that game.

And if the Iranians are going to try to engage in economic terrorism, we're going to abide by a simple principle that no Iranian ships are getting out either. We know that's a big deal to them. We know that applies additional economic leverage. The maneuvers intensify fears globally for a prolonged economic shock. China's foreign ministry has condemned the U.S. naval blockade of Iranian ports as dangerous and irresponsible warning against any effort to obstruct Chinese vessels. On Monday, the Chinese defense minister, Dong Jun said in a statement, quote,

we've trade and energy agreements with Iran. We expect others not to interfere in our affairs. The Strait of Hormuz is open to us, unquote. His warning came as at least four Iran-linked ships cross the Strait of Hormuz on Tuesday after the Trump administration declared the start of its blockade. We're joined now in the studio by two former negotiators for the U.S. and Iran in this democracy now exclusive. Ambassador Syed Hussein Moussavian served as spokesperson for Iran in its nuclear negotiations with the European Union from 2003. to 2005. He also served as Iran's ambassador to Germany. He's author of two books, the Iranian nuclear crisis, a memoir, and most recently Iran in the United States, an insider's view on the

failed past and the road to peace, and were joined by Rob Malley. He was one of the negotiators on the 2015 Iran nuclear deal, known as the JCPOA, the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action. He served as senior Middle East official under Presidents Clinton, Obama, and Biden. Under Biden, he served as a special envoy for Iran. He is now a lecturer at Yale University, former president of the International Crisis Group, co-author with Hussein Agha of a new book, Tomorrow is Yesterday, Life, Death, and the pursuit of peace in Israel, Palestine. Why don't we start off in this exclusive we have with the two of you at the table, an American and Iranian negotiator, with your assessment of what's taken place, it can be right through to this week, the failed negotiations, and before that, the

U.S. Israeli attack on Iran. Why don't we begin with you, Rob Malley? Well, first, I think, thanks for having me. You know, we can't ignore the fact that this war was unlawful, unjustified, unnecessary. And I think even if we're now going to talk about negotiations, even if the negotiations are to succeed, none of that could let us forget or excuse how we got here. So I do want to insist on that because if negotiations succeed, it's going to be too quick for the administration to say, you see we were right. But I think the real question now is whether the U.S. and Iran are engaging in these negotiations trying to find a solution that will meet both their side's core needs, or whether, in this case,

the U.S. takes the attitude that we won the war because we're stronger. not accepting the war, then we're going to inflict more pain. That won't work. And it won't work because Iran believes, and with some justification, that it has inflicted pain on the U.S. and that every day that goes by, it's going to inflict more. So they're not in a position right now where Iran is sort of begging for a deal because it wants to avoid an escalation. They believe, again, rightly wrongly, that they could sustain the pain longer than the U.S. can. Well, as you talk about what Iran believes let's go to the Iranian ambassador, Hussein Masavian. Your assessment of what has taken place, now it seems to be coming down to the nuclear negotiations around,

well, Iran's saying they'll do a moratorium for five years and the United States demanding 20, but overall the picture. I think Iranians now they are coming to negotiation table with mistrust more than. ever because once the deal was agreed in 2015 Iran was in full compliance and the US withdrew. The second there was a nuclear negotiation between Iran and the US in 2025. Negotiation as the foreign minister of Oman said had significant progress. Deal was within reach the US withdrew and attack Iran. We had negotiation in 2026.

Again, as Oman Foreign Minister said, negotiations had significant progress. Deal was within reach again, the U.S. attack. Then we had the latest in Islamabad. They had just one day negotiation. It was the highest level after revolution, after 48 years. And the U.S. side said there was progress. Only nuclear was not agreed. We agreed on everything, as President Trump said.

Iranian foreign minister also said we were very close to a final deal. And then immediately the U.S. imposed a blockade. I mean, sea blockade. That's why they have, they really don't know whether the U.S. is really for diplomas or not. If you are talking now about nuclear, first of all, every assessment of all U.S. intelligence, establishment since 2007, every year they have insisted no evidence of weaponization and no evidence of decision of Iranians, even in 25, even in 26. This is the U.S. security assessment, no decision to go to nuclear and no evidence of weaponization. Every IAEA report since 2003

says there is no evidence of weaponization. Therefore, therefore, there was no imminent threat. And I believe it was really illegal war, no doubt. Overwhelming majority of international community, they have insisted the war was illegal. How now we are coming to the negotiations. The biggest issue you have heard during the last two years is about Iran, 450 kilograms of enriched uranium, 60%. They say Iran can make 10 nuclear bomb if they decide to do. And even you hear from every American officials, they are insisting on this stockpile.

But I don't know whether the people they know in negotiation 2025, Iran said we are ready to dilute all 60% to below 5%. In negotiation during 2026, Iran officially told Americans, we are ready to dilute. This was said by the Omani foreign minister in his interview with the face the nation, officially that Iran was and is ready to dilute all stockpile to below 5%. Iran accepted to suspend enrichment for some years. Iran accepted to have zero stockpile. Therefore, there is no worry, and there was no worry about the high-level enriched uranium stockpile. And the other issue is about the IAA,

International Atomic Energy Agency. They have ambiguities. They have questions about technical issues with Iranian nuclear program. Iran was in full compliance with JCPOA. JCPA was the most comprehensive agreement during the history of nonproliferation with measures Iranian commitments far beyond NPT. But Iran accepted. And then in talks 2025, in nuclear talks,

2006, in Islamabad, Iranians, they said, we are ready to go to the highest level of transparency and cooperation with the IAEA to address every technical ambiguities. Therefore, when Iran was ready to dilute the whole stockpile, when Iran was ready to go to the maximum level of cooperation with the IAEA, to leave no concern about possible military dimension issues. And when Iran was ready also to suspend enrichment for some years, when Iran was ready for zero stockpile, then why the blockade? I mean, I really don't understand whether the issue is nuclear or not. Because we heard from American officials, officially, publicly, they said the aim was controlling Iranian oil reserves. And we heard from American officials, they said the aim was regime change. If the aim is controlling Iranian oil reserve like Venezuela, if the aim is regime change using nuclear as pretext, we're not going to have any deal. Ambassador, I wanted to ask you precisely about this issue of how the Trump administration often tries to confuse in the American public the difference between enrichment of uranium for peaceful,

purposes versus which Iran, like all signators of the nonproliferation treaty, have a right to do, and the actual development of bombs, of a nuclear bomb, and also the fact that the former Ayatollah Hamini specifically had a fatwa against Iran developing nuclear bomb. Could you explain that position of the leader who was killed by the United States? Actually, what Iranians are saying is about their legitimate legal rights under NPT. Argentina, they have enrichment, Brazil has enrichment, Germany has enrichment, Japan has enrichment, and they don't have nuclear bomb, and they are member of NPT. Iran does not accept any deal that to be the only.

member of NPT to be discriminized from its legitimate legal rights under NPT. Therefore, respecting the rights of Iran, like any other member of NPT, for enrichment is one issue. Executing the rights is another issue. Iran was ready as a confidence-building measures not to execute the rights for a period, specific period of confidence. evidence-building measures. What the U.S. is saying is zero enrichment is a clear violation of non-proliferation treaty. Therefore, of course, Saito Lakhinei insisted on all weapons of mass destruction. Religiously is haram is forbidden. Iran is member of NPT. And the important issue is that despite the fact Iran has been the most sanctioned country worldwide. Iran never diverted its nuclear program

toward weaponization, confirmed by all U.S. security establishment and the IAEA. Therefore, we need to understand respecting the rights of Iran like other members of NPT for peaceful nuclear technology is one issue, confidence-building measures by Iran to go for transparency, measures, suspending enrichment, zero stockpile, just as a confidence-building measures is another issue. I think we need to have a distinction between these two. I'd like to ask Rob Malley, the negotiators for the Trump administration in the latest round have continued to include Steve Whitkoff and Jared Kushner, two people who would have, some would say virtually no knowledge of the complexity.

of negotiations over nuclear enrichment and the development of nuclear bombs. Your assessment of their role in all of this and also why in all of this talk about Iran coming under some kind of international control, there is no mention of the fact that there's one power that does have nuclear weapons in the Middle East Israel, and it is not a party to the MPT. So first, I allow me to, you won't be surprised that I have. I have a little bit of a different appreciation from Hussein in terms of Iran's nuclear program. I think there is some evidence, certainly at some point, that they did have a military program. And my view is that they've always, their view, was we're going to hedge, we're going to have a nuclear program so that if we do want to develop a weapon we can.

I think that's, you know, one could understand why they did. But I think it's pretty clear that they did have that. So I don't think that there was anything, that there was anything. And that's why, by the way, President Obama negotiated the joint comprehensive plan of action, which is, a way to contain, and I think successfully, Iran's nuclear program, to make sure that if they were tempted to try to dash for a bomb, they couldn't do it in a quick way, and it would be immediately verified. I think one of the dramatically tragic mistakes of the first Trump administration was to tear

that deal up. So I don't think one has to be naive about what Iran was doing and still see that in what Trump was doing, produced exactly the wrong effects. Now, in terms of the current negotiations, no. No, Jared Kushner and Steve Whitkoff are not nuclear experts. By the way, nor am I. That's not the issue. The issue is whether they're surrounded by nuclear experts.

And everything, all the reports that I've received is that when they, when they negotiated with Iranians, in the past, I don't know what happened in Islamabad, but in the past, they didn't have nuclear experts. And so there was, and I think this has been well documented, that they misunderstood Iranian positions. They couldn't appreciate what they were actually trying to convey. And part of it, I think, is because of the oddity of this administration where so many of the decisions seem to rely and reside in one person, not the most reliable of all people. It's the President of the United States. And he is very mercurial and he's very unpredictable and he changes his mind and he changes his objectives. We don't really know what his objectives are in this conflict. And so I think what Steve Woodcock and Jared Kushner did is they relayed what they heard from the Iranians.

they didn't really fully understand them. And then depending on the president's mood, he varied on whether he was in the mood to accept a negotiated deal or was more eager for confrontation. And my assessment is that in this case, a bit emboldened by Venezuela, and we just saw the clip of where things are with that country, he felt he could not fail at a military endeavor. He was going to win. He was going to bring Iran to its knees and then be able to dictate the terms of a settlement. that's not what happened. When the U.S. attacked and Israel attacked Iran, I thought it was very interesting that the Omani foreign minister, who was negotiating, who was mediating, actually took a plane to Washington because he didn't feel that Kushner and Wifkopf was conveying what Iran was agreeing to. And he went on all the U.S. media he could so that he could get President Trump's attention. particularly on Fox. But I want to go to what he said on Face the Nation.

This is Badr bin Hamat Abu Saidi. He said Iran had agreed to abandon its nuclear enrichment and stockpiling program. If the ultimate objective is to ensure forever that Iran cannot have a nuclear bomb, I think we have cracked that problem through these negotiations by, agreeing a very important breakthrough that has never been achieved any time before. And I think if we can capture that and build on it, I think a deal is within our reach. So that was the Omani foreign minister. He actually kept repeating in all these interviews. He had a phrase, this is better than Obama. You know, someone had trained. It's like they had

said to him, this is what Trump needs to hear, because that's Trump's main motivating factor, better than Obama. You are, Rob Malley, one of the lead negotiators for the JCPOA, the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action. If you can explain why you, if you think this was better than what you achieved, and why anyway, President Trump and Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu attacked the very next day. And what happened that very next day? The Iranian girls' school in Minab was taken out.

It looks like with a U.S. missile. And 175 people about died overwhelmingly primary school girls. So, I mean, I said it at the same time either before after the Umani Foreign Minister, because based on the reports, and Hussein just said that, Iran was agreeing to suspend enrichment for a period of years. That is beyond anything that either President Obama achieved or President Biden could have achieved. I mean, at that time, Iran was not talking about suspending. It was accepting limits. I think those limits were sufficient to contain Iran's nuclear program. But if what President Trump wanted was to be able to say, at the end of these

negotiations, I beat President Obama, I would have granted him that if it could have spared us a war, because it was a truism. Suspension is better than the limited enrichment that Iran had. Now, again, I want to emphasize that marginal gain between suspension of enrichment or very low enrichment does not justify in any way, does not excuse an illegal war that has caused the deaths that you mentioned far more than that, destruction, and now disruptions of the world economy that are going to hurt the poorest nations first and foremost. And that's, of course, also because of Iran's reaction.

But the trigger was the war that was launched by the United States and Israel. So if that was his goal, but I think it goes back to the point I was making earlier. I think the war was launched by President Trump because he felt he could and he felt that he was on a role. It was on a roll after Venezuela after the attack on Iran a year ago, that he could be the president who finally deals with this issue. He changed, in his view, the regime in Venezuela. He thought he could change the regime in Iran and the next Cuba and that he would go down in history of this person. The details didn't matter. And I think he really felt unstoppable.

and he felt that the experts who were warning him didn't know what they were talking about. He knew better. In his gut. In his gut, whatever gut he has. Yes. I'd like to ask Ambassador Musavian, where do we go from here, especially now that after Trump announced this blockade of Iranian ports, and yet he's getting no support from the European Union on this. And, of course, China has made it very clear that they are going to continue.

you to expect to be able to get through, have their ships go through the Strait of Hormuz and to trade with Iran. What is the, what are the options for the United States and also can Iran survive a long-term blockade by economic blockade by the United States? The naval blockade based on United Nations Resolution 1974 is act of war, is aggression. Therefore, internationally, legally, what the U.S. is doing is a clear aggression or act of war because suffering a 90 million nation

and the fear of famine, hunger, against a nation. This is not about just a state. Nevertheless, about Strait of Hormoz, the reality is that this Strait was open, free for navigation for 48 years, 47 years. Never there was any problem. Even after the first U.S. Israeli war on Iran, 2025, Iran did not put any limit on navigation. But when the U.S. and Israel, they attacked for the second. time in 2026, Iranians, they really felt this is an existential threat. This was really the difference. That's why they tried to use all cards they have. One of them was Strait of Hormoz. Nevertheless,

they did not close the Strait. They put some limits. Internationally, this strait should be open with free navigation. They should not be. be any limit and Iranians legally internationally, they cannot put limits or close it. But also there is international regulations that during war, a country which is attacked by another country can put some calculated limits on navigation, not broad and they cannot close it. For the future, if the U.S. is looking for a nuclear deal as what we have been already discussed and Rob said they already got what they wanted more than Obama period, more than JCPOA, but even they can have one big more achievement on the nuclear issue,

because President Trump can offer for Iran to go for a multilateral enrichment mechanism in the Persian Gulf. What we, I mean, I and nuclear scientist at Princeton University, we published multiple articles. The last one was 10 days before 2025 war. We said rather than national enrichment, because Saudi Arabia also is looking for enrichment. If Saudi gets Egyptians, they will get. If Egypt get Turkish, we'll get it. Therefore, we will have many countries with enrichment, rather than this trend, risking non-fluor reflation in the region, a multilateral enrichment nuclear arrangement in this region would be the best way out where it would be fully under the control of International Atomic Energy Agency, and even

the U.S., Russia, China, the world powers, they can participate, this would be international like Jureenko enrichment in Europe, where Germany, Spain, UK, Netherlands, they have multilateral enrichment. Therefore, beyond what already the nuclear negotiators during President Trump have achieved already, which is more than JCPOA during President Obama, they can have one more big deal on nuclear, which is regional, which will free the whole Persian goal from national. nuclear weapon. And on the Strait of Hormoz, Iranians, they have not closed it. They say if there is a deal, if the U.S. will accept not to attack Iran or to end the war, they will open it. Therefore, the U.S. can say, okay, we will continue negotiations, but we are committed not to

attack Iran for the fourth time maybe, I mean, because once the U.S. indirectly cooperated with Saddam attacking Iran, providing material technology for Saddam to use chemical weapons in 1980s. The second war was in 2025. The third war was in 2026. And now the blockade is act of war again in 2026. If the U.S. is really serious for diplomacy, they can achieve diplomacy, but they should promise Iran not to attack Iran again. Then Iran will open the Hormoz issue. I mean, there would be a good.

good solution. And I'd also like to ask Bob Rob Malley, the situation with Israel, which has been attacking Iran, but is not part of the current negotiations. What do you feel has happened between Israel and the Trump administration? Is there a divergence occurring between the two? So I think they have different objectives. I mean, first of all, we don't know what President Trump's objectives are, so it's hard to say how they're different or the similar to Israel. But I think Israel has been consistent in its actions. What it wants is to weaken its neighbors, whoever they are. I mean, it's happened in Gaza, which they destroyed the West Bank. You just saw what they're doing there. Lebanon, which we could talk about, which is a – they devastated the country.

A million people now have fled the South. They've killed hundreds of people even since the recent ceasefire, which apparently didn't apply to Lebanon. and they would like to weaken, fragment Iran as much as possible, because they have this view that this is their opportunity to extinguish any threat real or pretextual, imminent, or into the future. That's not really, I think, President Trump's view. Again, it's hard to divine it. But what that means is Israel would prefer to prolong this war as long as possible.

I don't think that that's President Trump's ambition. And I think the day President Trump says it's it, I think he will, that, the Prime Minister, Senate, will not be able to do anything but acquiesce. So we have to wait for that moment to happen, for the president to tell the Israelis it's over. It's over both in Iran and in Lebanon. I'm not sure what he'll say about Lebanon,

but at least in Iran, I don't think Prime Minister Netanyahu could afford to stand in his way. And I wanted to ask you, finally, Ambassador Musavien, about we've talked to so many Iranian professors, dissidents, You know, the thousands of Iranians who were killed in the streets recently. And, I mean, we haven't talked to them, but noting that, I wanted to ask you about the, my surprise at how many of those, even people who have been on death row in the Avian prison have condemned the U.S. Israeli attack on Iran. They say it will make the regime more right-wing, that this does not accomplish their ends. I'm wondering your thoughts on all of these people who are coming out now and saying they want to be in charge of their own country.

They don't want these outside forces because they're destroying Iran. I think what Americans, they need to understand is to have a clear distinction between Iranian unsatisfaction with the current governing system in Iran. I would say 80% of Iranians, they are not happy with the governing system. They have problems with economic inflation, poverty, corruption, I mean mismanagement. this functionality of the system, no doubt about it. I'm sure majority of Iranians, they want major reforms. They want, their main issue is about economic issue and corruption and mismanagement

and this functionality of the system. Having said that, when they are attacked by the U.S. or specifically Israel, more, I mean the whole nation, they will be united to defend their own. integrity, independence, identity, especially when they are, they have been said, I mean, by the U.S. president, that he will eradicate the civilization of Iran, when the U.S. is saying Iranians are animal, when they said, bastard, Iranian bastards. I mean, such a warning, humiliation, threats, bullying, attacking. I mean, Iranians, we have had about 30,000 Iranians, Iranians, Iranians, killed or injured during the two wars.

Hundreds of billions of damages, over 100,000 building, non-military buildings, have been destroyed. And then it's normal the nation would be united to defend its country. I'm going to leave it there, but of course we will not leave the discussions about what's happening there

as we continue to cover them every day on democracy now. Ambassador Hussain Masavian served as spokesperson for Iran in its nuclear negotiations with the European Union from 2003 to 2005, also served as Iran's ambassador to Germany. And Robert Malley served as the special envoy for Iran under President Biden, also served as one of the negotiators on the 2015 Iran nuclear deal under President Obama. Coming up, the President versus the Pope will speak with Father James Martin, Jesuit priests. Stay with us.

Man built. Got a move. Man made a record, put a needle to the groove. Man been down. Now man don't want no one around. First they stole our language, then they stole our names, then they stole the things that brought us fame. And they stole our neighbors, and they stole our streets. And they left to die on Rican Beach. But don't take my... Rican Beach by Linda Segarra and hooray for the riffraff

performing in our Democracy Now studio. To see her performance at our 30th anniversary, along with Bruce Springsteen and Patty Smith and Michael Stipe, you can go to DemocracyNow.org. I'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez. We turn now to escalating tensions between the president and the pope following President Trump's unprecedented attacks on Pope Leo over the Pope's vocal opposition to war.

Last month, Defense Secretary Pete Hig Seth publicly prayed for, quote, overwhelming violence against, quote, those who deserve no mercy. During his Palm Sunday address, Pope Leo said Jesus Christ rejects the prayers of those who wage war. Brothers and sisters, This is our God, Jesus, King of Peace, who rejects war, whom no one can use to justify war. He does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, but rejects them, saying, even though you make many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood. Your hands are full of blood, the Pope said.

On Sunday night, Trump criticized Pope Leo, the first U.S.-born Catholic pontiff, in a lengthy message on truth social, him weak on crime terrible for foreign policy. On a flight en route to Algiers to begin a 10-day tour of four African countries, Pope Leo said he would not shy away from the message of the gospel. I don't want to get into a debate with him. I don't think that the message of the gospel is meant to be abused in the way that some people are doing. And I will continue to speak out loud with against war. President Trump also sparked widespread outrage by posting an AI-generated image of himself as Jesus Christ, laying his hand on a sick or dying man. In the image, Trump's wearing a white robe and red cloak.

After being accused of blasphemy by some supporters, Trump deleted the image 12 hours after it was first posted. This was Trump's response when asked by reporters about it. Mr. President, did you post that picture of yourself depicted as Jesus Christ? Well, it wasn't depicted. It was me. I did post it. And I thought it was me as a doctor and had to do with Red Cross as a Red Cross worker there, which we support. And only the fake news could come up with that one. We're joined now by Father James Martin, prominent Jesuit priest, editor at large of America magazine, the author of the new book, Work in Progress, Confess. of busboy, dishwasher, caddy, usher, factory worker, bank teller, corporate tool, and priest.

He has described Trump's attacks on the Pope as unhinged, uncharitable, and unchristian. Welcome to Democracy Now, Father. It's great to have you with us. Can you explain this unprecedented attack by an American president on the Pope? Well, it's actually hard to explain. But I think what probably is, happened was on 60 minutes, there was a special with Cardinals Macarroy, Tobin, and Supich, you know, who were very strong against the war, Cardinal McRoy, who was a theologian and a political scientist called the war unjust. And that seemed to have sparked the outrage from President Trump, who did launch into this personal ad hominem attack against the Holy Father. And then, as you said,

followed it up with the tweet of him as Jesus. So it seems to have been, you know, a kind of late-night anger that he took out on the Pope and that, you know, he decided that he wanted to place himself in the role of Jesus. That's how I see it. And Father Martin, I wanted to ask you about all these almost unhinged comments. So in recent weeks of the president, for instance, on Easter Sunday itself, the holiest day of the year for Catholics, him threatening to bomb Iran into the Stone Age. Your reaction to how this is, how this is playing out among Catholics around the world. Yeah, and I would say Easter is the holiest day of year, the holiest day of the year for Christians as well. We have to remember, you know, Jesus comes back after the resurrection.

His first words to the disciples are, peace be with you, not, you know, vengeance is mine. How is this playing out? Catholics from the progressive side to the traditional side were appalled by the president's attacks on the Pope because they were so mean-spirited, so personal, so outrageous that it is really, you know, kind of an attack on the church because the Pope is the visible representative of the church.

And I think people feel that Catholics feel that they are being attacked as well. So really very personal, very mean-spirited and also, as I said, unhinged. President J.D. Vance, a Catholic convert, appeared on Fox News last night. He said this. I certainly think that in some cases it would be. best for the Vatican to stick to matters of morality, to stick to matters of, you know, what's going on to the Catholic Church, and let the President of United States stick to dictating American public policy.

So that's J.D. Vance, if you can respond to that. And also the AI image Trump posted of himself as Jesus Christ. But start with Vance. Yeah, he said the Catholic Church should stick to matters of morality. I don't know. other more pressing moral issues than war and peace than taking care of the poor the sick the homeless the stranger these are moral issues right and so that is exactly what pope leo has been doing he has been talking about these moral issues and so i don't understand how pres vice president vans cannot see that war uh is a moral issue uh secondly this idea of president trump posting a picture of himself as jesus you know some have called it blasphemous which is

you know, speaking ill words against God, but I think it's more idolatry. I mean, the First Commandment says, you shall have no other gods before me, right? And that includes President Trump. So the idea that someone could see themselves in the role of Jesus and then actually post it online like that really sort of is hard to imagine, and particularly for someone who calls himself a Christian. President Trump has surrounded himself with evangelical advisors who frame his policy. as divinely sanctioned. And his spiritual advisor, Paula White Kane, has declared that, quote, to say no to President Trump would be to say no to God. What do you say to that and the evangelicals

around him that promote these views? Yeah. To speak in religious terms and to speak to evangelicals and Christians, that's idolatry. I mean, that's what that is. I mean, if you're saying that that President Trump is equivalent to God, and what President Trump does and thinks and how he acts is equivalent to God is idolatry. And that's against the First Commandment. So I think it's kind of just insane. And it also implies that God is therefore,

if God is only on our side, that God is somehow against other people, right? And wants Iranians to die, and wants our enemies to die. And again, Jesus' message is blessed of the peacemakers, not blessed of the war mormon. And again, his message after the resurrection is, peace be with you, not I'm going to take revenge. But, you know, what Paula White was saying was idolatry. And that's against the First Commandment, period.

And Defense Secretary Hegseth recently leading a prayer at the Pentagon asking God to pour down overwhelming violence of action against those who deserve no mercy. Can you talk about how the Pope responded when he said, even though you make many prayers? I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood. Pope Leo said that. Yeah, God is a God of life. This idea that no one does, some people don't deserve mercy is completely against the Christian message. So on pretty much every measure, it fails as a Christian message. You know, calling down violence against somebody, saying that someone doesn't deserve mercy, saying that God is only on our side. I mean, it's a real perversion of the Gospels. I want to thank you, Father James Martin, Jesuit Priest, editor at large of America Magazine, author of the new book, Work in Progress.

That does it for our show. I'll be speaking today after the 130 screening of Steal the Story Please at the IFC in the village. We'll be doing the Q&A with the co-director, Carl Deal. I'll also be speaking tonight at the Q&A after the screening of the film at the Cinema Arts Center in Huntington. Tomorrow we head to Los Angeles, where we'll be at the different Lemley theaters and then to San Francisco this weekend to be at the Roxy in San Francisco, at the Rialto in San Rafael, and in Berkeley. You can go to DemocracyNow.org to see all the details. This is the first week of Steal the Story. Please, the film screening around the country.

I'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez for another edition of Democracy Now.