Democracy Now! Audio - Democracy Now! 2026-04-30 Thursday

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

Democracy Now! Thursday, April 30, 2026

New York, this is Democracy Now. Today, the far-right Supreme Court has dealt a devastating blow to our democracy and to the Voting Rights Act of 1965. It will pave the way for the greatest reduction in representation for black and minority voters since the years following Reconstruction. The U.S. Supreme Court guts a key part of the Voting Rights Act in a move that could help Republican, redraw congressional maps before the midterms. We'll speak with longtime civil rights attorney Maya Wiley, president of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights. Then the Iran War is another reason to quit oil.

We speak to climate activist and author Bill McKibben. The world's getting off oil, lickety split. That's the main effect of the war in Iran. the U.S. not so much. So we're at one of these truly crucial junctures in this climate energy story. And we speak to the Lebanese-born academic, Gilbert Ashkar, on the wars in Iran and Lebanon, and President Trump's embrace of gunboat diplomacy. All that and more coming out.

Welcome to Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. The Supreme Court ruled Wednesday. Louisiana must withdraw a congressional map that was designed to create a second majority black district in the state where African Americans have long faced racial segregation and barriers to voting. The decision effectively guts Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, the last remaining major provision of the landmark 1965 law that was a crowning achievement of the civil rights movement. In a six to three decision along partisan lines, a majority of the justices ruled Louisiana's map relied too heavily on race and unfairly favored black voters over white voters. In a dissent signed by justices Sonia Sotomayor and Katanji Brown Jackson, Justice Elena Kagan, writes,

quote, the Voting Rights Act is or now more accurately was one of the most consequential, efficacious and amply justified exercises of federal legislative power in our nation's history, unquote. It was born of the literal blood of union soldiers and civil rights marchers at ushered in awe-inspiring change, bringing this nation closer to fulfilling the ideals of democracy and racial equality, she wrote. We'll have more on the gutting of the Voting Rights Act with Maya Wiley after headlines. In more news from the Supreme Court, the conservative majority Wednesday appeared to side with the Trump administration's argument that it has the authority to revoke temporary protected status, TPS, for hundreds of thousands of immigrants from

Haiti and Syria. During oral arguments, the court's six conservative justices signaled skepticism toward lower court rulings that had blocked the administration's efforts to NTPS designations, which shield immigrants from deportation when their home countries are deemed unsafe. A rule ruling in favor, the administration could strip legal protections from some 350,000 Haitians and 6,000 Syrians and potentially more than a million TPS holders nationwide. Jeffrey Pipelli is a lawyer representing tens of thousands of Haitian immigrants challenging the Trump administration's termination of their TPS. The true reason for the termination is the president's racial animus towards non-white immigrants

and bare dislike of Haitians in particular. The president has disparaged Haitian TPS holders specifically as undesirables from a, quote, and days after falsely accusing them of, quote, eating the dogs and eating the cats of Americans, he vowed that he would terminate Haiti's TPS. And that is exactly what happened. President Trump said Wednesday, the U.S. will continue its naval blockade of Iran until Iran agrees to an agreement over its nuclear program. Trump's comments to Axios raise the prospect that the Strait of Hormuz could remain closed for months, setting off panic in global energy

markets where the price of crude oil soared above $126 per barrel, its highest level since 2022. This comes as the U.S. blockade and U.S. Israeli attacks have pushed Iran into a severe economic crisis with the cost of food and medicine skyrocketing. Wednesday, Iran's currency fell to a record low of more than 1.8 million reals to the U.S. dollar. Iran's government says the conflict has led more than a million people to lose their jobs with bomb damage to over 23,000 factories and businesses across Iran. Defense Secretary Pete Hague Seth faces the second day of questioning under oath on Capitol Hill today, where he's due to testify to a Senate committee about the Pentagon's record-shattering 1.5

trillion-dollar budget request. On Wednesday, Hegset was grilled by members of the House Armed Services Committee for nearly six hours in exchanges that often turned acrimonious as Heg-Seth berated democratic lawmakers who accused him of lying mismanagement and incompetence. This is California Congress member John Garimendi. Secretary Heseth, you have been lying to the American public about this war from day one. And so has the president. You have misled the public about why we are at war. You and the president have offered ever-changing reasons for this war. In response, Hegseth angrily questioned Garimendi's patriotism and accused the Congress member of, quote, handing propaganda to our enemies, unquote.

Heg Seth also faced questions about the Pentagon's targeting of civilian boats in the Caribbean and eastern Pacific, which U.S. Southern Command says has killed nearly 200 people. The Pentagon has said, without providing evidence, the boats are carrying drugs. Human rights groups and some lawmakers have condemned the strikes as murder. Massachusetts Congress member William Keating said he'd found no justification for the attacks and warned Hegsseth he could face accountability. With each of these extrajudicial killings, the administration is pirating American values. We'll continue to investigate this. We will. It'll come forward in the future.

Lebanon's National News Agency says Israeli, the airstrikes have killed at least nine people across southern Lebanon with homes targeted and reduced to rubble. Israel's latest attacks come despite a U.S. brokered ceasefire that was declared April 16th and extended last week. On Wednesday, a U.N.-backed report found more than 1.2 million people, or nearly a quarter of Lebanon's population, will face acute hunger this year due to, quote, conflict, displacement, and economic pressures, unquote. Israel's militaries intercepted boats traveling with the global Samud flotilla as they work to bring food and humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip. Leaders of the International A Group say at least 22 of the 58 vessels en route to Gaza were chased down overnight by drones and military speedboats near the Greek island of Crete. Their radar was jammed as Israeli troops carrying assault rifles, boarded the ships, and ordered the ships and order participants to their hands and knees. activist Neve O'Connor live streamed as her ship was intercepted.

As a flotilla, we have activated all safety protocols and we are now preparing for interception. If we go silent, this is why we have been intercepted. Please keep tracking us, condemn anyone that you can to bring us back home safely and keep an honor. A spokesperson for the Global Samud Flotilla condemned Israel's interception as, quote, a straight-up attack on unarmed civilian boats in international waters and kidnapping on the high seas, unquote. Last year, Israel carried out similar raids on a previous attempt by the Global Samud Flotilla to break the siege of Gaza. 440 participants were arrested by Israel, many of whom said they were tortured and abused while in Israeli custody. Two Jewish men were stabbed in broad daylight in the North London neighborhood of Golders Green Wednesday,

and what police are declaring a terrorist incident. The two victims, age 76 and 34, are in stable condition. A 45-year-old British National Born in Somalia was arrested on suspicion of attempted murder after also allegedly attempting to stab police officers. Counter-terrorism police are looking into whether the stabbings are connected to a string of recent arson attacks on synagogues and Jewish sites in London. This is London Mayor Sadie Khan. An attack on a Jewish Londoner is an attack on our country.

An attack on a synagogue is an attack on our capital city. This attack today has spread terror in the Jewish community, not just in London, not just across the country, but across the globe. Our response must be equal. U.S. prosecutors have indicted Sinolawa governor Ruben Rocha Moja and nine other Mexican officials with helping the Sinaloa cartelow. traffic drugs into the U.S. in exchange for bribes and political favors. Prosecutors allege Rocha Moja met with the sons of former cartel leader, Joaquin El Chapo Guzman, before his 2021 election and promised to install officials friendly to their drug trafficking operations, while cartel members stole ballot boxes and intimidated opponents to ensure

his victory. Rocha Moya denied the allegations. He's the highest-ranking member of Mexico's leading political party Morena to be indicted by the United States. U.S. Senate Republicans Tuesday killed a Democratic resolution that would have required President Trump to get Congress's approval to keep blockading Cuba. The GOP's maneuver to dismiss the war powers resolution succeeded on a 51-47 vote with Democratic Senator John Federman of Pennsylvania, the lone Democrat to vote with Republicans. Republican Senator Susan Collins of Maine and Rand Paul of Kentucky were the only Republicans to support the Democrats' resolution. The U.S. blockade is plunge Cuba into an energy crisis, leaving millions without reliable

power or clean water. And the U.S. House of Representatives voted Tuesday to extend Section 702 of FISA, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, for three years, sending the bill to the Senate ahead of tonight's deadline. The program allows U.S. intelligence agents, to intercept the electronic communications of foreign nationals outside the United States. But some of the data collected under FISA Section 702 authority also includes communications with Americans. Democratic Congress member Ashita Talib of Michigan blasted the measure, saying, quote, it has been used to spy on Black Lives Matter protesters, members of Congress, journalists, and more, unquote. 42 Democrats join most House Republicans in advancing the bill.

Hajar Hamato, a senior policy advisor at Demand Progress, said, quote, these Democrats defied their constituents and common sense to undercut meaningful privacy reforms in the House and instead voted to hand over sweeping spy powers to the Trump administration. This means continuing warrantless backdoor searches and allowing an increasing number of federal agencies to exploit the data broker loophole to see. supercharge AI and fuel mass domestic surveillance, unquote. And those are some of the headlines. This is Democracy Now. Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace Report. I'm Mimi Goodman. And I'm Nermin Sheikh. Welcome to our listeners and viewers across the country and around the world.

We begin today's show looking at the U.S. Supreme Court's gutting of a key part of the 1965 Voting Rights Act. On Wednesday, in a six to three decision, the court struck down Louisiana's voting map that was designed to create a second majority black district in the state, where African Americans have long faced racial segregation and barriers to voting. The six conservative justices on the court ruled Louisiana's map, quote, relied too heavily on race and unfairly favored black voters over white voters. In her dissent, Justice Elena Kagan described the ruling as the, quote, latest chapter in the majorities now completed demolition of the Voting Rights Act.

Kagan warned that the ruling will give states the power to draw congressional maps to disenfranchise voters of color. She wrote, quote, minority voters can now be cracked out of the electoral process. Republican politicians rapidly seized on Wednesday's ruling. The Washington Post reports Louisiana Governor Jeff Landry told Republican House candidates. He plans to suspend the May 16th primary elections. so state lawmakers can pass a new congressional map first. Meanwhile, in a special section on Wednesday,

Florida lawmakers approved a new congressional map designed to give Republicans four additional U.S. House seats in the midterm elections in November. On Wednesday, members of the book, Congressional Black Caucus gathered to condemn the Supreme Court ruling. This is Alabama Congress member Terry Sewell. Today, the far-right Supreme Court has done. dealt a devastating blow to our democracy and to the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

It will pave the way for the greatest reduction in representation for black and minority voters since the years following Reconstruction. What the court did today makes it easier for bad state actors to silence the voices of black voters and harder to challenge the discrimination in court. With this decision, the extremism. on the Supreme Court have completed their decades-long crusade to gut the Voting Rights Act of 1965. They willingly dismiss generations of legal precedent, of congressional intent, and the will of the American people. In doing so, they had given a green light to Donald Trump's partisan voter

suppression scheme. Instead of responding to the will of the people and changing course, Trump and Republicans are trying to erode our democracy and suppress the vote to escape accountability at the ballot box. They're looking to steal the election. And we in the Congressional Black Caucus say no. No. We say hell no. Hell no. Not without a fight.

I am a daughter of Selma, Alabama, and I grew up in the shadow of the civil rights movement. The foot soldiers who marched across that bridge were my nation. my church members, my parishioners, and my babysitters. I am here to tell you that the progress secured by those foot soldiers is being erased before our very eyes. And we say no. No. We say hell no. Not on our watch. That was Democratic Congress member, Terry Sewell of Alabama. We're joined now by Maya Wiley, President and CEO of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, long-time civil rights attorney. Maya, thanks so much for being with us. If you can address our global audience and talk about the significance of the Voting Rights Act and what happened with yesterday's

ruling. Well, first of all, Amy, thank you for having me and thank you for this conversation. This is central to whether or not we maintain a multiracial democracy in this country and a real way for black people, for Latinos, for Native Americans and Asian Americans, to have a real opportunity to say who leads us. It is that simple. But if you put it in context, let's put it in context. You know, not only you heard from Representative Terry Sewell, who is an amazing leader on voting rights, and from the place where black people marched along with white allies and faced not just attack, even threats of death, hospitalization, simply. for peacefully marching for the right to vote. I say that because what they won by putting their

bodies on the line was the Voting Rights Act of 1965, which the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, the nation's largest and most diverse civil rights coalition, helped win. But what winning the Voting Rights Act did was take us from a place where there was virtually no representation in Congress or in state houses because even in states like Alabama, like Louisiana, like so many other states where we had large percentages of black people, also later Latinos, as that population has grown in Asian Americans, or in states with Native American populations that are large, did not have people who had to be accountable because you could simply gerrymandered, a map that was not fair in terms of interests of community, of the types of things communities

would demand that enabled people to get together and say, who's going to be our candidate, who's going to solve our problems, who's going to show up and speak to our needs. And we changed that because essentially Congress did something extremely important. It said, you know what? Yes, intentional discrimination we know is unconstitutional. institutional. But what we have is a country that is segregated people by race. What we have as a country is such a long history of hiding the ability to steal power from black people or from Latinos in all kinds of ways that don't even have to name it. We're going to look at the impact. If the impact on a voting decision on a way of organizing the process of voting means that the

effect is that a large number of black people or Latinos or anybody based on race will not have a fair opportunity to decide who leads us. That violates the Voting Rights Act. And the reason that was so critical is, you know, even if it was bean counting or naming the number of judges that existed in state courts or all the ridiculous things that were thrown as intentional hurdles to black people voting in the South, for example, didn't say race, didn't name it. And so what Justice Alito and this really radicalized right-wing majority did was say, because we think that we shouldn't be able to say anything about partisan politics, we're not just going to create a loophole. We're going to create the sunken place where essentially any politicians who are controlled.

controlling the politics of the state can just say, we're not discriminating. We just want to win. And we will win if black people can't have a district where they have the ability to say who leads them. Because rather than competing for our votes, rather than trying to find the kinds of coalitions of the willing to create and solve, create solutions to problems we all share, they'd rather just figure out a way to stay in power. That means statehouse races. That means school board races, but it also means who leads us in this country and whether or not we have a congressional black caucus who makes arguments for civil rights, but also for things like access to health care or a Latino caucus where we have enough political power to say you can't ignore how we are being treated. And the Supreme Court said we will turn not only a blind eye, we will have our eye. wide open and say, you can't prove it. So, Maya, the principal provision in the Voting Rights Act is Section 2, which this ruling has effectively eviscerated. If you could explain what Section 2 calls for.

Yeah, and that's what I was just summarizing was basically what Section 2 says. So first of all, let me just say this, because especially, not just for a global audience, for a national audience, the context in which Representative Sewell said this is a decades-long fight to take away our rights and our ability to have leaders who look like us and who represent us. And that is that this Supreme Court said, first of all, took away section five of the Voting Rights Act. This is a section that said, you know, there has been so many shenanigans in blocking people of color, black, Latino, Native American, Asian, from being able to vote that we need a provision that says you have to get preclearance. If you have a long history of racial discrimination

in this area, you have to have the Department of Justice say it's okay how you draw your electoral map or how you design other systems around voting, like early voting systems or where you have polling sites. And when this Supreme Court in 2013 said, you know what? we're going to say you haven't, history has changed. We're doing such a great job in the United States. You don't have to do that anymore. That opened the floodgates, open the floodgates for now would create a huge gap in voter turnout because we just had barrier after barrier after barrier thrown in our way,

including on how maps were drawn. That means we have states that aren't representing the real population of those states. But Section 2 remained. Section 2 said, okay, but you can still sue. You can still bring a lawsuit. If a state does anything that has the effect of making it harder for you to have a real opportunity as a black community, as a Latino community, as a Native American community, to say who leads us to participate in the process of voting, if it impacts you and it is clear that it impacts you. then we're going to say it's not okay. We're going to say it's discriminatory. What this Supreme Court said is really hard to prove intent. In fact, it's so hard to prove intent

that we're going to say, even though Congress said you don't have to show that someone hates you, you don't have to show that any politicians are saying, we just don't want black people voting, we're going to say it's fine to prevent large numbers of black people from being represented. or make it harder for large numbers of Latino people to get access to a poll or Native Americans, we're going to say that's okay unless you can show us a rabid racist. Even though Congress said, no, it's just about the effect. It's just about the outcome. So when they did this yesterday, what they were saying and what Justice Kagan and her dissent said is,

y'all just given them a free pass to discriminatory. and all they have to do to do it is say, it's just good for Republicans. And I'm saying that because that's who's running around right now saying, let's change all our maps. Democrats are now going to do it too. It's started doing it. But it's just creating a new kind of civil war about who wants to have our votes.

And if you're already in control in a statehouse, all you have to do to discriminate is say, yeah, it's just good for our party. Well, in the New York Times report, and this is in terms of the midterms coming up later this year, that hours after the ruling, Florida's legislature approved a new map that could give Republicans as many as four new seats in the state's congressional delegation and other states are expected to follow.

If you could talk about the implications of that. Yeah, I mean, this is why this opinion is a devastating blow. because it has literally, states have been organizing around this for a while. And as we know, Donald Trump asked for states like Texas, other states, to rig their maps to guarantee an outcome for Republicans so they could hold on to the U.S. Congress to the House. And it was blatant, right? But what that means is you go for people of color. You go to draw maps that we call either packing or cracking communities of color.

we've got racial segregation. We've got communities that are majority people of some kind of color. They're not without some diversity, but where there really is a large segment of people live near each other, have shared interests. And so Republicans started preparing those maps. In some instances, we're already passing them. That's why we had this lawsuit in the first place. And then, as we have seen, they were just waiting for permission to say, it's politics. It's partisan. And so Florida's had a long stretch of this. By the way, let's remember, for many in your audience, may not remember this. After Barack Obama won election in 2008, and as we were approaching the 2012 elections, you know, we saw all of us sudden claims that there was voter fraud, that undocumented immigrants were voting, that we had to make it much more difficult to prove you had the ability to vote lawfully. And what that did was disenfranchise a lot of people of color.

But we had Republican Party head in Florida, Republican Party head in Pennsylvania, saying that quiet part out loud is we can deliver an election this way. And so it's not surprising to now see Florida or Louisiana or Alabama or Missouri, any of these states saying, game on. Now we're going to use this to make sure. that large segments of our population who are people of color don't count. Maya Wiley, I want to ask you about another attack on civil rights. Last week, the Justice Department indicted the SPLC, the Southern Poverty Law Center,

on an 11-count federal fraud case. The case centers on the center's history of paying people to infiltrate white supremacist groups, including the Ku Klux Klan, the Aryan Nation, and the National Alliance. The Southern Poverty Law Center rejected the charges as politically motivated, saying its informant program was used to monitor threats of violence and that the information gathered was routinely shared with local and federal law enforcement. On Sunday, President Trump spoke to 60 Minutes and claimed without proof that the deadly white nationalists unite the right rally in Charlottesville in 2017.

was, quote, all funded by the Southern Poverty Law Center. I see these no kings, which are funded just like the Southern Law was funded. You saw all that, Southern Law is financing the KKK and lots of other radical, terrible groups. And then they go out and they say, oh, we've got to stop the KKK. And yet they give them hundreds of thousands and even millions of dollars. They were right. It's a total scam run by the Democrats. It shows you that, like Charlottesville, Charlottesville was all funded by the Southern Law.

That was a Southern law deal, too. And it was done to make me look bad and it turned out to be a total fake. It basically was a rigged election. This was a part of the rigging of the election. So Maya Wiley, you recently wrote an article headlined why I support the Southern Poverty Law Center. Can you explain the SPLC what it is and the significance of the? this indictment? I certainly can, and it's connected to the conversation we just had. First of all, let me be candid. The Southern Poverty Law Center is a member organization of our over 200 national

organizational coalition that is the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights. I know them well. I work with them. Let me just say this. Its history is founded on fighting racism, fighting hatred and fighting extremism. It is its mission, and it is one that it acquitted when people were bombed for demanding their civil rights by racists, by extremists. It brought the Ku Klux Klan after it lynched a black man in the early 1980s, brought a civil civil rights suit that bankrupted it. It runs a tracking program to identify hate groups, track whether they're growing or shrinking. They did this after January 6th. They had been tracking the proud boys and the oathkeepers,

the foot soldiers of the violence in January 6th. Remember, the proud boys are the ones that Donald Trump himself when he ran for president. It's told to stand by as if they were at his command, and that was before January 6, 2021. The Unite the Right rally was the very rally that Donald Trump had said. They're good and bad people on both sides. When they were chanting, Jews will not replace us. When their links to anti-Semitism, neo-Nazism, and white supremacy was clear.

And the reason I'm saying this is what Southern Poverty Law Center has done is in addition to ensuring that people know about their rights to vote, in addition to fighting for voting rights in the South, in addition to doing all the things that can't ensure that people have. a voice about whether or not they can see a doctor when they're sick or whether or not they have a fair wage for the work they do. The other thing they do is track hate in this country, but that has exposed allies of Donald Trump. It is exposed people who are in its administration. It has exposed the very connections that he himself has publicly stated or that people he is in close relationship have publicly been seen in relationship with. The reason I say all of that is because when Todd, I stand by them because I know what this is.

It's political persecution because you have some power of advocacy in voice around the very civil whites we have been fighting for in this country so that we have a democracy that serves all our needs. And they track hate across the board, not with political ideology other than whether it's extremism. And it matters so much because we're watching a politics that is trying to erase the fact that racism exists. Todd Blanche on announcing this indictment said it out loud. He said, they're trying to say that racism is real when it's not. That's basically what he says. Those aren't his words, but those were the import of his words. Donald Trump has publicly said that the civil rights.

laws hurt white men. That's actually a white nationalist trope and talking point. Not to mention how many times we've seen white supremacy and neo-Nazism, rise of hate and anti-Semitism in this country, SPLC's been fighting it. So all I can say is there's a pattern in the development of tyranny in countries across the globe where the person who wants to have that power finds ways to discredit the lawful advocacy of organizations that are fighting to ensure that democracy survives. But democracy doesn't survive in lies, and everything we just heard was a lie. We just have 10 seconds. Do you think other groups are next? Do you represent scores of groups similar to the SPLC? We've had 100 of organizations refuse to be afraid of this administration.

administration weaponizing government against lawful activity. Hundreds have, but the reason, one of the reasons is because everyone understands that this administration has been signaling in multiple ways, that it is going to find ways to punish anyone it disagrees with. So yes, I expect that we will see this audition from Todd Blanche to be the people's lawyer is top Blanche's audition to show, I'll go after anyone you want me to because we don't like them. Maya Wiley, want to thank you for being with us. President and CEO of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights ran for mayor in 2021.

Coming up, Lebanese-born academic, Joubert Ashkar, on the wars in Iran and Lebanon and President Trump's embrace of gunboat diplomacy. Back in 30 seconds. way to a day. Trying to act right. In a trench coat of sound. Some need want to feel murder. Sun's taking credit.

Gifting a news. Passing faith. Mercy by Minneapolis jazz musician and songwriter, Sophia Shorai. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. The War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman with Nermin Shea. President Trump said Wednesday the U.S. will continue its naval blockade of Iran until Tehran makes an agreement over its nuclear program. Trump's comments to Axios raise the prospect

that the Strait of Hormuz could remain closed for months, setting off panic in global energy markets. Axios is also reporting that President Trump is slated to receive a briefing today on plans for new potential military action in Iran from Sentcom, commander Admiral Brad Cooper. This comes as the U.S. blockade and U.S. Israeli attacks have pushed Iran into a severe economic crisis, with the cost of food and medicine skyrocketing. Meanwhile, Israeli airstrikes and controlled demolitions in Lebanon are ongoing. More than 1.2 million people have been displaced. Earlier this week, Israeli defense minister Israel Katz said, quote,

the fate of southern Lebanon will be the same as that of Gaza. To discuss this and more, we're joined by the long time. scholar of the region, Gilbert Ashkar, emeritus professor at Soaz, the University of London. His article from earlier this year in Le Mans Diplomatique is headlined

U.S. an old new imperial doctrine. His latest book, Gaza catastrophe, the genocide and world historical perspective. Joubert Ashkar, thanks so much for joining us today. If you could start off by

explaining exactly what you mean by the new old imperial doctrine. Yes, good morning, Amy and Nirmie. Very great to be with you, despite the very sad character of the times we're going through. I've been listening to the program from the beginning. It's really demoralizing.

Anyway, right. I mean, it's an old, new imperial doctrine. in the sense that the basics of imperialism are still at work, but with shifts over the time, if you compare to the George W. Bush era, when a regime change was on the order of the day through the invasion of Iraq with the pretension of bringing democracy to that country,

well, that's one thing that Donald Trump cannot be accused of, which is the claim of bringing democracy anywhere, right? So that's definitely not his cup of tea. And instead of that, he's just going back to 19th century gunboat diplomacy. You bomb a country until they submit, until you get them doing what you want. Now, he had a success in this kind of policy in Venezuela, after abducting the president's country.

And he believed, I would say, very stupidly, very short-sightedly, that the same could be repeated by just decapitating the Iranian regime. And the result is definitely the most botched up of all U.S. imperial wars in history. I mean, I can't think of any other failure. in planning any other degree of wishful thinking into getting into a war.

And actually, he got exactly the contrary of what he was pursuing in some sense. He believed that the pragmatist in the Iranian regime would take over after his military action. Well, the result has been exactly the contrary. It's very clearly it just enhanced the militarization of the regime. It enhanced the Revolutionary Guard Corps. And if you compare with the, I mean, whatever one thinks of Barack Obama's policy on the matter, but the deal he did with Iran, strengthened the hand of Barack Obama's policy on the matter. but the deal he did with Iran strengthened the hand of the reformist in the Iranian regime.

You had Hassam Rouhani as president, and he stayed there for several years. But then came Donald Trump, who just removed all that. The result has been Iran going back to uranium enrichment and increasing it tremendously. and the hardliners taking over. So that's the most counterproductive policy ever. I mean, this belief that the big stick will work everywhere is just so, so short-sighted. And Professor Ashgar, I want to ask about what you think led the U.S. in to this war. you know, that some commentary, which suggests erroneously in your view, that it was Israel that

forced the U.S. into this war. You said in an interview recently, quote, conservative such as John Mearsheimer, Stephen Walt, and the wing of the Magasphere represented by Tucker Carlson, tried to obscure the reality of U.S. imperialism and attribute its failures to the Israel lobby, if not to the, quote, Jews, as in the case of Tucker Carlson. So if you could elaborate on that and explain why this argument could even plausibly be made. Sure, I mean, this is the game of blame it on Israel, if not blame it on the Jews, as you said. And, I mean, it strikes me that this began with the failed Iraq invasion of 2003.

Meersheimer didn't say the same of the bombing of Iraq, the turning of Iraq into the stone age, as the UN report said, in 1991, because he believed probably that that was a success. So this idea of blaming U.S. failures on Israel or anyone else is indeed an attempt to blur the reality of U.S. imperialism. And let me tell you one thing. It is, I mean, absolutely obvious to me that for Donald Trump, for Kushner, Jared Kushner, for Steve Whitkoff, the Gulf monarchies are much more important than whatever Israel can represent. I mean, that's where their economic interests are. That's where they have billions of dollars of joint investments and the rest. And therefore, I mean, of course, the United States has used the Israeli military, who was only very happy to oblige in this joint war on Iran.

But you could see, everyone could see how when, Donald Trump decided that he had to stop. He did not even consult Netanyahu, although he, Netanyahu has been on his side from day one. So, I mean, no, these wars are US imperialist wars. You can have a convergence with the Zionist state on this or that issue, but basically the key driving force for the United States is US imperialism,

US capitalism, key interests of the United States and not Israel. This is just a very misleading interpretation of facts. Professor Ashkar, finally, you know, now it's been two months since this war began, and it appears now that no end is in sight. There were talks in Islamabad and Pakistan recently, but they seem to be almost entirely at an impasse. So if you could explain what are the objectives now of the two parties and what are the points of difference? Right. I would first say that I'm not sure that Donald Trump himself knows exactly where he wants to go. I mean, the stated objectives on the U.S. side are the abandonment by Iran of nuclear enrichment.

that's the major stated goal of the Trump administration. And on that, the Iranian side has been quite steadfast refusing the idea of having to stop this uranium enrichment, even though, I mean, there are a lot of reports pointing to the fact of disagreements within the Iranian regime between the pragmatists who believe that they, I mean, Iran could just abandon this nuclear enrichment if it gets in exchange a full removal of all sanctions and a real economic opening. The military side, the hardliners in the Iranian regime, don't see it that way. Their raison d'etre is basically war, you know.

And I made a comparison in that regard between the Russian model and the Chinese model recently. Iran is closer to the Russian model of a combination of militarization and rent economy, oil rent, fossil fuel rent, instead of what the pragmatist there would like, which would be some kind of imitation of the Chinese model of economic opening and, let's say, more peaceful relation with the rest of the world. Jebeda Ashkar, we want to thank you so much for being with us, Emeritus Professor at Soaz, University of London. We're going to link to your article, U.S., an old, new,

imperial doctrine in Le Mans Diplomite. His latest book, As a catastrophe, the genocide and world historical perspective. Coming up, the Iran War is another reason to quit oil. We'll speak with climate activist and author Bill McKibben. Stay with us. Time by Minneapolis, jazz musician and songwriter Sophia Shorai. I'll be in Minneapolis. with the film, steal the story, please, on May 8th. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. I'm Amy Goodman with Nermaine Shea. We turn now to climate change.

Last month was the warmest march on record in over 130 years in the United States. An average rainfall across the country is at a record low so far this year. The dry conditions are fueling wildfires across Georgia and Florida ahead of what is expected to be a very hot summer. And now the WMO, the World Mutriological Organization, is predicting a likely super el-Nino weather pattern to begin later this year through 2027, further driving up average global temperatures. Meanwhile, new research has found that a major ocean circulatory system in the Atlantic, known as Amuk, is in danger of weakening to the point of collapse faster and sooner than previously thought. The amok system, which includes the Gulf Stream, helps distribute heat around the planet. Its collapse could have catastrophic consequences. Scientists are now concerned the tipping point could be reached as early as the middle of this century.

But despite overwhelming scientific consensus, the United States, the world's largest historical emitter of greenhouse gases, is moving away from taking the threat seriously. This is President Trump earlier this month at a talking point USA. rally in Phoenix. The Green News scam, one of the greatest scams in history, remember? Climate change, global warming, all of this. They actually had global warming. Remember, that that wasn't working because we were actually cooling as a planet.

And then they just said, climate change, because climate change takes care of heat, snow, whatever you have. That was President Trump speaking at Turning Point. Despite this, the energy crisis caused by the war in Iran. is underscoring the economic and security benefits of transitioning away from fossil fuels and towards renewable alternatives. For more on all of this, we're joined by climate activist and author Bill McKibben. His recent article in the New Yorker magazine is headline, The Iran War is another reason to quit oil. Bill McKibbon's co-founder, 350.org and third act.

Joining us here in our New York studio, welcome back, Bill to Democracy Now. if you can talk about what the U.S. Israeli attack on Iran means for the climate. Well, what it meant, what it means for energy policy is that everyone around the world can suddenly see the utter folly of relying on a fuel that not only is destroying the planet's climate, but also that can be bottled up behind a 20-mile-long waterway. I mean, sunlight has to travel 93 million miles to reach the earth, but none of those miles go through the Strait of Hormuz. That makes it a very appealing alternative, especially now that it's cheaper than burning coal and gas and oil. So the movement in the last month has been pretty remarkable around much of the world in the direction of what we used to call alternative energy. The only place that's not happening, of course, is here at home. And could you explain?

I mean, first of all, the U.S. now produces the most oil in the world. So how does that play into this? Well, Pete Higgseth said the other day that there were tankers lining up outside the Texas chip channel to get good old American crude. It's true that in the short run, this will probably be a bonus for the big American oil companies whose profits are through the roof. and who, by the way, should be paying a serious windfall profits tax in any serious government. But over the slightly longer term, what we're seeing is demand destruction around the planet. Look, the forecast for how American oil companies were going to stay rich and prosperous for the next couple of decades pretty much dependent on everybody in Asia deciding they were going to drive gasoline-powered pickup trucks.

That's not what's happening. Instead, people are crowding into the showrooms of companies like BYD, the Chinese EV giant, because they don't want to pay. I mean, we're paying $4 and $5 for gas. It's much higher in much of Asia, which is, you know, where this story will be decided. would that we were doing all this for climate reasons. I mean, we're meeting right now or just finished this big meeting in Santa Marta in Colombia, with many nations trying to work towards a fossil fuel phase out on climate grounds. That isn't happening anywhere near fast enough. A bigger catalyst at the moment is the clear geopolitical imperative to get off fossil fuel while you can. So talk about where you're seeing this around.

the world, as you say, in fact, countries are running to this as the U.S. administration is running away from this. The president of South Korea said the other day that he wasn't able to sleep at night, trying to figure out where they were going to find energy supplies. The place they're going to find them, he said, is homegrown energy. Indonesia, which is going to be one of the most important powers in the world, announced within days of the start of hostilities that they were going to put 100 gigawatts worth of solar on their grid in the next few years. Everybody's figuring out that it is ludicrous to be exposed any more than you have to to the completely volatile and undependable supply of fossil fuel when, you know, the sun rises pretty much every morning.

And if you could explain to your point, you know, the argument here is that, you know, renewing, are too expensive, they take too long. But China, meanwhile, has built so much clean energy very, very quickly. It's a world leader in clean energy investment, installation, and manufacturing. How did that happen? Well, the Chinese decided that this was going to be the strategic comparative, and so they got to work. And they've driven the price down so far. This is by far that we live on a planet where the cheapest way Nourmin to produce energy is to point a sheet of glass at the sun. That's been true now for three or four years, and it's showing up in the fact that 95% of new electric generation around the planet last year came from the sun and the

wind. Now, the U.S. is the exception to that. Even here, though, we're seeing continued investment in this stuff just because of economics, the state where it's growing the fastest is that radical progressive hub Texas. And at Third Act, we've been having lots of luck this spring in state legislatures around the country, getting them to approve this so-called balcony solar or plug-in solar. That's the very easiest, cheapest way for apartment dwellers and others to get in on this burgeoning revolution. Bill, we just have two minutes, and I want to get to the El Nino and the possible collapse of this AMAC, the Atlantic Ocean circulation system, what this means.

nothing good. When I wrote the end of nature 40 years ago, this was one of the things that we were talking about as a possible result of climate change. As you melt, as freshwater pours off a melting Greenland, it changes the salinity and hence the density of seawater in the North Atlantic. That density drives this giant heat distribution engine, the biggest on the planet. If it collapses, as the chief scientist on this work now said is at least a 50% possibility this century, then it's a civilizational scale event. Temperatures plummet across Western Europe. Sea levels rise sharply and quickly along the eastern U.S.

But basically, we add, I don't know, 30 or 40 parts per million CO2 almost immediately to the atmosphere as C.S. O2 leaves the ocean. These are the kind of things that they make science fiction thrillers about. It would be the biggest single event in the history of our species. We want to avoid it at all costs. The main tool that we have right now to do that is the very rapid deployment of clean energy. The last 30 seconds. Are you hopeful? I'm hopeful that we actually have a tool, finally to put to work, we're not going to stop global warming, Amy. We may be able to start shaving tenths of a degree off how hot the planet gets,

and that would at the very least be helpful. Bill McKiven, co-founder of 350.org, founder of the Organization Third Act, his latest book, Here Comes the Sun, a last chance for the climate and a fresh chance for civilization. We'll link to your article. The Iran War is another reason to quit. That does it for our show. I'll be in Boston tonight in Brookline for screenings of the new documentary about Democracy Now steal this story, please. It's showing at the Coolidge Corner Theater in Brookline. Then on Friday, May 1st and Saturday, I'll be in Silver Spring, Maryland, two benefit screenings. One for WHUT, Howard University, PBS, and the other for WPFW Pacifica Radio. See Democracy Now.org for more information. information about this, these calendars. Then we'll be at the Charles Theater in Baltimore.

And on Sunday, we'll be in Philadelphia doing a fundraiser for Philly Cam. That's Philadelphia public access. Again, you can go to DemocracyNow.org for all details. Democracy Now produced with Mike Berkina Ghezda Mesaer, Rosiah Rhodes. Maria Torres Sainan and Nicole Salas, Arsau, Nassar, Nassar, Turen, Burasam, Fafth, Marie Astu, John Hamilton, Ravi, Karen, the Sue Diego Ramos. Our executive director is Julie Crosby. I'm Amy Goodman with Nermin Sheikh.