Democracy Now! Audio - Democracy Now! 2026-06-25 Thursday

Episode Date: June 25, 2026

Democracy Now! Thursday, June 25, 2026

From New York, this is Democracy Now. There are dozens of collapsed buildings, and we are at this moment working very hard in rescue operations to save the lives that God permits us to save. I want to say that this is a true tragedy. Thousands are feared dead in Venezuela, if not tens of thousands. After two major earthquakes toppled buildings in Caracas and other areas, rescue workers are desperately looking for survivors. The worst earthquake in a century will get the latest. Then to Texas, where a federal judge has handed down prison sentences ranging from 30 to 100 years to a group of anti-ice protesters. one man was sentenced to 30 years for simply moving a box of anti-fascist zines.

We'll speak to a lawyer in the case and a journalist who covered the trial. This was the first time, according to the Trump administration, that they charged people as terrorists who were alleged Antifa members. and the administration secured some very long convictions, which were immediately trumpeted by Koch Patel and Attorney General Todd Blanche. And we speak to the acclaimed journalist and tech activist Corey Doctoro, author of the new book, The Reverse Centaur's Guide to Life After AI. How to think about artificial intelligence before it's too late. I think we really need to be worrying about right now is what happens when the bubble pops and 35% of the economy is vaporized.

Not that the software that can't do your job is going to take your job. Your boss will give it your job, but it can't do your job. All that and more coming up. Welcome to Democracy Now. Democracy Now.org, the Warren Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. Venezuela's acting president, Elsie Rodriguez, has declared a state of emergency after scores of people were killed. and over 1,000 injured by two powerful earthquakes that struck near the capital Caracas on Wednesday evening. The death toll is currently at over 160, but likely to continue rising as rescue workers frantically search for survivors in the rubble of at least dozens of collapsed buildings. The first earthquake registered 7.2 on the Richter scale was followed less than a minute later by an even more powerful 7.5 magnitude earthquake.

this is a survivor. Fortunately, my family, my wife, my granddaughter and I were out of the apartment building. When we got back, we saw it was completely destroyed. Luckily, the neighbors managed to save their lives, too. What can I say? How many families are going to end up like this with destroyed buildings in Caracas? The U.S. Geological Survey warns there's a high chance the death toll could rise into the tens of thousands or even top 100,000.

Wednesdays earthquakes follow U.S. air strikes on Caracas and other Venezuelan cities in January, which came after 20 years of devastating U.S. sanctions that left Caracas's electrical grid and other infrastructure and disrepair after headlines will talk about what's happening there. The White House has asked Congress to approve nearly $88 billion in supplemental funding, mostly to cover the cost of the U.S. war in Iran. That's down from the $200 billion request floated by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth in March, but still dwarfs the pace of military spending during the height of the U.S. occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan. On Wednesday, Secretary of State Marker Rubio met with Gulf Allies in Kuwait, Bahrain, and the United Arab Emirates.

He said technical talks with Iran are scheduled for. next week in Geneva and ruled out any deal in which Iran would charge a fee for passage through the strait of Hormuz. I know of no country on the planet that supports tolling or a fee for the use of the straits. That's just not, that's not going to happen. The president has been abundantly clear. Driving.

Israeli attacks killed at least two people in southern Lebanon on Wednesday coming, despite the renewed ceasefire between the U.S. and Iran, which requires an end to Israel's occupation of southern Lebanon. On Wednesday, the U.S. hosted another round of talks between Israeli and Lebanese diplomats. Once again, Hezbollah was not a party to the talks. In Tel Aviv, Israeli defense minister, Israel Katz, that Israeli troops would not withdraw from southern Lebanon. The IDF is prepared, and we are not retreating. We announce that in any case, we are not withdrawing. And as of this moment, this is a political achievement. There is no, American demand for Israel to withdraw from Lebanon.

In Gaza, an Israeli drone struck a tent housing, displaced Palestinians in Amawesi on Wednesday, killing a 12-year-old child and wounding several others. The attack came one day after a United Nations Commission of Inquiry reported Israel's deliberate targeting of children as part of an ongoing genocide against Gaza's Palestinian population. In the occupied West Bank, Israeli forces shot and killed a 29-year-old. Palestinian man during a raid on the town of Al-Yamun west of Janine. Meanwhile, the Palestinian journalist Mujahid Banimufla has released shocking images taken before and after he was jailed by Israel without charge in a so-called administrative detention. Banu Fulah says during his six

months in captivity, he was starved and abused. He suffered a severe brain hemorrhage. just two days after his release and had to have parts of his skull removed. In a statement, the Palestinian Prisoner Society, Sizmufla is not an isolated case, and that, quote, thousands have been subjected to systematic violations inside Israeli prisons, including torture, starvation, denial of treatment, physical and psychological assaults in addition to continuous psychological terror. San Jose State University has been ordered to reinstate a tenured professor who was fired for her pro-Palestinian activism.

An arbitrator issued the order to rehire Professor San Quil after finding her dismissal was, quote, excessive and disproportionate, unquote. Professor Keel held the ruling as a, quote, victory for academic freedom on campus and pro-Palestine speech, unquote. Kiel had been fired after participating in three on-campus demonstrations over the war in Gaza. She also served as faculty advisor to students for justice in Palestine. President Trump abruptly called off plans to sign a bipartisan housing bill on Wednesday, less than two hours before a scheduled signing ceremony. On social media, Trump declared the event was, quote, hereby canceled until such a time as we pass the desperately needed

Save America Act, which I consider to be a national emergency, he wrote. The legislation would require voters to produce passports or birth certificates showing their current name in order to register to vote or update voter registration information. Voting rights experts say it could disenfranchise millions of citizens. Meanwhile, Trump visited Capitol Hill for a closed-door meeting with Senate Republicans, where he castigated them for refusing to abolish the filibuster in order to pass the Save America Act. The meeting reportedly devolved into a shouting match between Trump and Louisiana Senator, Dr. Bill Cassidy, who sided with most Democrats and three other Republican senators in favor

resolution ordering Trump end the U.S. war in Iran. Following the meeting, the Senate voted 45 to 50 to defeat a second nearly identical war powers resolution on Iran after Senator Cassidy, reversed his vote, and Kentucky Republican Senator Rand Paul voted present. Ukraine's intensifying its attacks inside Russia, striking a major natural gas processing plant, one of the largest in the world. In addition, Ukraine struck two key satellite communication centers inside Russia. A Ukrainian drone also struck an apartment building in a Russian-held area of the Dignets region. At least three people were killed. Meanwhile, a Russian artillery strike in the Kharsan region of Ukraine killed two mine disposal experts from the Oslo-based charity,

Norwegian people's aid. And in Moscow, the prominent anti-war politician, Maxine Krogloff, has been sentenced to seven years in prison. He was convicted of spreading false information about the Russian military for posting messages online about civilian deaths in Ukraine. Kroglouf is the deputy leader of the liberal Yab. Blocal party in Russia, the party's former leader, Sergei Matrochen, condemned the sentence. The prosecutor and the investigator did not even hesitate to accuse him of disagreeing with the political course of the country's leadership. For that, he was now given seven years. What can I say? I think this is a return to the darkest times. A U.S. appeals court cleared the way for the

Trump administration to resume the expedited mass deportation of immigrants without a chance to appear before a judge. On Tuesday, a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit delivered a split, two-to-one ruling that overturned a lower court's ruling that fast-track deportations far from the U.S. border likely violate the due process rights of immigrants. Both the judges who sided with the Trump administration are appointees of President Trump. In a dissent. opinion, Circuit Judge Robert Wilkins wrote, quote, Due process does not wait for a final removal order to be issued before it is owed. Meanwhile, a federal judge in California's barred Trump administration from making arrests

at immigration courts nationwide. The ruling also limits the amount of time people arrested for immigration violations can be jailed. This follows a ruling by a separate federal judge last month, barring arrests at New York courthouses. The Pentagon's reverse course and will once again require flu vaccines for all recruits. In April, Defense Secretary Pete Higgseth made the flu shot optional, citing what he called medical autonomy and religious freedom. However, the Pentagon reinstated the vaccine mandate after a flu outbreak at Lackland Air Base sicken nearly 300 people, a source to.

told the Associated Press, just 40% of new recruits opted to receive the flu shot after Hegseth made it optional. The Intelligence Alliance, known as Five Eyes, is warning that powerful new artificial intelligence models are rapidly becoming capable of devastating cyber attacks against governments and businesses. In a rare joint statement, intelligence officers from the U.S., UK, Australia, New York, New Zealand and Canada, warn that generative AI models could soon lower barriers from malicious hackers while vastly increasing the speed and complexity of cyber attacks.

This comes after the Trump administration ordered Anthropic to limit access to its fable and mythos AI models after they proved highly adept at exploiting critical software vulnerabilities. According to a report in The Economist, an anthropic ally. AI agent was able to penetrate nearly all classified systems managed by the NSA and U.S. Cyber Command within hours. And in Peru, Keko Fuhimori, daughter of the former dictator Alberto Fuhimori, appears poised to become Peru's next president. The far-right Fujimori has a 43,000 vote lead over the leftist lawmaker Rivera Sanchez. Election officials say, Only 40,000 ballots remain to be counted.

On Tuesday, Sanchez said he would not recognize results of the presidential runoff, alleging votes cast by Peruvians outside Peru were processed improperly. Sanchez received more votes than Fujimori inside Peru, but Fujimori won the election because she received 65% of the vote from Peruvians living outside Peru. Sanchez spoke in Lima Tuesday. A fraud is underway today before the national elections jury. We filed a no amendment yesterday precisely to stop this illegality. If the national elections jury does not act in accordance with the law, in accordance with transparency,

because the transparency we have requested for the vote recount, they do not want to consider it. What are they hiding? And those are some of the headlines. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the Warren peace report. I'm Amy Goodman. And I'm Narmine Sheikh. Welcome to our listeners and viewers across the country and around the world. We begin today in Venezuela, where thousands of fear dead after back-to-back powerful earthquakes struck the country Wednesday evening, collapsing buildings in the capital Caracas and surrounding areas.

Venezuela's acting president, Delsi Rodriguez, has declared a state of emergency as rescue workers frantically searched for survivors in the rubble of dozens of collapsed buildings. The current death toll is at 16. with 1,000 people injured, but the U.S. Geological Survey warns there's a high chance the death toll could rise into the tens of thousands or even top 100,000. The first earthquake registered 7.2 on the Richter's scale and was followed less than a minute later by an even more powerful 7.5 magnitude earthquake. It's the most powerful earthquake to hit Venezuela in a century. This is acting President Delci Rodriguez speaking on state television, earlier today. I want to inform that the state most affected by this incalculable seismic phenomenon is Laguaya

state. There are dozens of collapsed buildings, and we are at this moment working very hard in rescue operations to save the lives that God permits us to save. On Wednesday night, Caracas resident Avilio Gonzalez returned home to find his building. completely destroyed. Fortunately, my family, my wife, my granddaughter and I were out of the apartment building. When we got back, we saw it was completely destroyed. Luckily, the neighbors managed to save their lives too.

What can I say? How many families are going to end up like this with destroyed buildings in Caracas? Another Caracas resident, Maria Alejandra, was inside a building when the quakes hit. I was here when I was here when I was here. managed to get dressed. He helped me, and all the walls were cracked. We managed to open the door however we could. There was a cloud of smoke that wouldn't let us see. And when we went downstairs, the scene was like a horror movie. For more, we're joined by Alejandro Velasco, a professor at New York University, where he's a historian of modern Latin America.

Velasco is a former executive editor of NACLA report on the America, is author of Badiou Rising, Urban Popular Politics, and the Making of Modern Venezuela. He was born and raised in Venezuela, has been in touch with his friends and family there. Thanks so much for joining us as you drive here in the United States. What is the latest you've heard, Alejandro? Thanks so much for having me and for keeping track of this story. I mean, the latest is, of course, that things are fast-moving. And my friends and family there are just in a state of shock, you know, not only for the images that we're seeing, but just like the utter devastation on top of what has already been a really, you know, difficult six months in Venezuela and more.

And so, you know, it's the source of concern. People are desperately trying to find loved ones. There's also, of course, folks, so many Venezuelans are abroad who are trying to get in touch with their loved ones in Venezuela and are having a hard time doing. So it took me about 45 minutes to get a hold of my dad, who was about an hour and a half west of Karakas, simply safe. But, yeah, what we're hearing now is that people are just completely in shock and are desperately trying to find out any news about their loved ones and relatives. And Alejandro, how prepared is Venezuela in general for seismic activity, given its location? It is especially vulnerable. That's correct. You know, the last major earthquake to hit the Capital Legion was in 1967. At the time, there was reports of 300 fatalities and over 1,500 injured buildings collapsed. This is, as Amy mentioned, that the strongest earthquakes has been recorded in over 100 years. And so in terms of preparation, yes, Venezuela, especially on that coastal range region, is not unprepared for seismic events. But of course, you know, the infrastructure and the the security efforts, but also just in terms of the personnel because of the economic and political

crisis that we've had in Venezuela for so long, you know, especially for something of the scale that we're seeing right now, it's no match for the devastation. And so it's been gratifying to hear from neighboring countries, even those that have had, you know, very significant ideological opposition to Venezuela, like the new government in Chile. saying that they are ready to deploy assistance, whether it be personnel or material to Venezuela. So that at least has been really quite ratifying to see. And there have also been reports, Alejandro, of disruptions, understandably, disruptions to the internet. So is it possible that we don't really know the extent of the damage in areas outside Caracas?

That is absolutely the case. Senate is also true that, again, amidst the economic crisis of Venezuela, it's been mostly Caracas that has kind of lived in a little bit of a bubble in terms of services in terms of attention to infrastructure and whatnot. And it's the outer regions, the provinces where, you know, there's far less attention paid. And so, you know, some reports that we're getting out of further outstates like Bolivia suggest that there's significant militaries. and control of information.

And so it's certainly possible, not only that we don't know the extent of the damage, but even if we had perfect internet connection, even in that situation, I think the extent of the earthquake and the devastation is going to take us days, if not weeks, to really get a hold of. And finally, Alejandro,

since we have you on, and you're a historian of modern Latin America, your response to, it looks like, Colombia, the right-wing candidate, El Espriya, has been announced the winner of the presidential election there to replace the leftist, President Petro, and that Fuhimori is poised to take control of Peru. Yeah, I mean, we're seeing, I think, in Latin America, the pendulum swing, which, you know, began a couple of a few years back with Bukle and El Salvador and then Millei and.

in Argentina. Obviously, the left had been in significant turmoil for some years, and that has affected economic development in several countries. So in some ways, what we're seeing as a kind of shift to populist right, I think what's really significant about Colombia, in particular, of course, is that the election was so tight and we're getting reports now that, you know, the margin of victory really was held as in the case of Peru by Colombians living abroad. And so I think that's suggesting something about the shifting dynamics of electoral politics and power plays in Latin America, where it's not so much of domestic constituencies that are calling the significant shots, but it's the expatriatech constituencies which have very different interests and alignments that they are motivated by.

And, of course, in the case of Colombia, the closeness of the election also suggests that it's going to be even beyond the pendulum swing from the left to right. it's already going to be extremely difficult to govern in a situation where the incoming president had such a narrow mandate of victory. Alejandro Velasco, we thank you so much for being with us at this breaking news in Venezuela. I hope that your family is okay, your father right near the epicenter of the quakes. Alejandro Velasco, associate professor at NYU, where he's a starring of modern Latin America, former executive editor of NACLA report on the Americas and author of Badi O'Rising. Thanks so much for being there.

Coming up next, the Prairie Land case, a federal judge has handed down prison sentences ranging from 30 to 100 years for a group of anti-ice protesters. Stay with us. I'm a mental indebid grito

with a voice silenciated I'm the pain material resistent

be ye cade with the courage to front I'm going to get the battle I

want to but I'm can't I'm Concert to Allo, Against Everything, by the Puerto Rican singer and songwriter Ilae, performing in our Democracy Now studio. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. I'm Amy Goodman with Nermyn Cheya. We turn now to a case that's been widely seen as a test case of the Trump administration's crackdown on dissent.

On Tuesday, a federal judge in Texas handed down unusually harsh sentences, ranging from 30 to 100 years to a group of anti-ice protesters convicted of terrorism charges in March. Federal prosecutors had accused the nine defendants of being members of a North Texas, quote, Antifa terror cell for attending a protest outside the Prairie Land Ice Jail on July 4th of last year, during which fireworks were set off and a police officer was shot and wounded. Among those sentenced was Daniel Sanchez Estrada, who wasn't even at the protest. He received a 30-year prison term for conspiracy to conceal documents after he moved a box containing anti-fascist magazines and pamphlets. Another protester, Autumn Hill, received a sentence of 50 years after being

convicted of rioting, providing material support to terrorists, conspiracy to use and carry an explosive and use and carry of an explosive device, which was fireworks. This is Hill's wife, Lydia Koza, speaking after the conviction in March. Federal prosecutors in this case told a panel of Northern District of Texas residents with a straight face that lighting off fireworks on the 4th of July was terrorism, was a riot. I cannot think of anything more un-American than that. And I cannot think of anything more inhumane than the horrors that ICE is inflicting through its state terror on our communities. Acting U.S. Attorney General Todd Blanche welcomed the unusually harsh sentences, writing that, quote,

Antifa terrorists who attack law enforcement and federal facilities will face swift and uncompromising justice. Their violent extremism has no place in our country. and the Department of Justice will continue to aggressively investigate, disrupt, and prosecute those who threaten law enforcement officers or undermine the rule of law, end quote. Former U.S. Marine Corps reservists Benjamin Song, who was convicted of the shooting, received a hundred-year sentence. In a statement, he said he only fired his rifle because he believed the officer was about to shoot another activist. Song said others had been punished just for knowing him, adding, quote, this is mass punishment, collective punishment.

This is guilt by association. This is injustice, he wrote. On Wednesday, democracy now reached out to federal public defender, Jason Hawkins. He said, quote, we have no comment other than we look forward to appealing both the conviction and sentence. For more, we're joined now by two guests. Sophia Khalid is Deputy Director of the National Security Criminal Defense Center at the Muslim Legal Fund of America, joining us from Dallas, Texas. She represents one of the Prairreeland defendants, Marcella Rueira, at the sentencing on Tuesday and will be representing her on the appeal. Rueda received a 70-year

sentence for her alleged role in a noise demonstration outside the Prairiel ICE jail that the government charged as material support of Antifa terrorists and an obstruction charge for allegedly asking her husband to move boxes of zines, magazines, after her arrest. And from Baltimore, Maryland, we're joined by Matt Sledge, political reporter for the Intercept who's been covering the Prairieland case and just returned from the sentencing hearing. His latest piece headline Prairieland defendant sentenced to 30 years in prison for moving a box of anti-fascist zines. Let's go first to Safia Khaled. Explain what took place in this courtroom, what your client now faces as well as the others. Thank you for having me,

Amy. So what happened on Tuesday, what is shocking to all of us, devastating to the family's 50 to 100-year sentences. Those are essentially life sentences for all of the young people in this case, largely of whom were engaged in nonviolent protest at an ICE detention facility. How did we get here? So the government in this case sought a novel, first time that this has happened, use of a rarely used statute, the provision of material support to terrorists. And that has not been used in the purely domestic context for, this kind of conduct. That statute also does not require any connection to a domestic terrorist organization or any kind of a domestic terrorist organization. When the government sought

prosecution under this statute, they sought to seek a very dangerous precedent, that now allows them to target any American engaged in protests that results in even the most minor damage to property, property destruction. Any American can be targeted that way now. It does not require ties to Antifa or to any domestic terrorist organization. It just requires one of these underlying statutes. That's a dangerous precedent and what allowed them to stack these charges so high on Tuesday. On Tuesday, what happened is the federal sentencing, people were anticipating maximum sentences

of 20 years, maybe 30 years. The way they reached this sentence is the judge used this very rarely used on the most extreme federal sentencing guideline called the terrorism enhancement to inflict maximum sentences on every count of conviction for these defendants and then abused his discretion to do something that is very rarely done in cases like this. he ordered each sentence to be served consecutively, not concurrently. So each sentence is served consecutively resulting in sentences for 50 to 100 years in these cases. That terrorism enhancement that I mentioned only requires that the offense is calculated

to influence or affect the conduct of government through intimidation or retaliation. That's a very, very broad, has a very broad application. and the government in past recent years has sought that in a lot of these prosecutions that people don't pay a lot of attention to. And so now it's very broadly applied. Seeking it in this case meant that the guidelines, you know, this sort of federal sentencing structure that's supposed to tailor a sentence to each defendant. My client, for example, a young mother to a 12-year-old daughter, an artist, a poet,

never been in trouble with the law, never even missed a parking ticket. The sentences are supposed to account for all of these unique situations. The fact, you know, that she has no criminal history. But the terrorism enhancement undoes all of that. It recommends a maximum sentence on every charge for every defendant. That's how it operates because it automatically designates them as a career offender. It's particularly abusive in this case, though, because it results in a significantly unwarranted sentencing disparity in the United States amongst defendants that have been convicted of similar conduct.

Now, in these kinds of cases where the government is bringing this a novel charge under a rarely used statute and terrorism, you may only have a couple or a handful of cases that are relevant to kind of distinguish your client or show where the expected range should be. But in this case, we actually had 1,500-plus very recent federal prosecutions related to similar conduct that should have informed what these sentences should have looked like. And that was of the January 6 defendants. The January 6 defendants were involved in rioting, carrying massive arsenals of weapons, lots of discussions ahead of time that didn't exist in this case about targeting law enforcement, wanting to kill members of Congress, them actually storming the Capitol.

and it resulted in injury of 140 officers in that case. The government in that case could have sought prosecution under this same material support of terrorism statute. They didn't for those defendants. And they could have sought the terrorism enhancement in those cases because it applied. I told you that vague calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government could have applied it in all of those prosecutions. It only sought them in a small handful. And where they sought the terrorism enhancement, the court. courts then rightly decided not to apply it in the vast majority of the small selection of cases

where they saw it because they said it was overkill, not representative, and would result in unwarranted sentencing disparity. The average sentence in the Capitol riots, which had far more serious conduct than the Prairie Line 9 defendants, was 26 months. So we have a massive unwarranted sentencing disparity here. What happened in the court? in Fort Worth was unconstitutional and should concern everybody in this country in the direction that it is taking us. Sophia, could you talk about this sentencing in the context of a presidential memo issued by Trump in September 2025, that is to say, the National Security Presidential Memorandum 7,

which is titled Countering Domestic Terrorism and Organized Political. violence? Yes, that is how we got here. So in that memorandum, the president ordered the DOJ to change the definition of what is a domestic terrorist. When you hear domestic terrorism, when people see Antifa in these headlines, Antifa receives 50 to 100 years, their mind clicks off because you hear domestic terrorism and you assume it must be really serious, it must be violent, it must be planned mass violence. That's not what happened here. And in that memorandum, they changed a definition to domestic terrorism to include trespass, property damage, and civil disorder for people with specific political leanings, anti-fascist, anti-Christian, anti-traditional values. So now anyone

engaged in basic protests with the wrong political beliefs can be labeled a domestic. terrorist, when they have no intention to violence, not engaged in any violence, not interested in any violence, and all we would typically think of domestic terrorism. This can be minor trespass, civil disorder, even doxing, reporting somebody online, what their identity is. That can all result in this domestic terrorism tab. And in that presidential memorandum, they ordered prosecutors to seek the highest charge and seek terrorism charges in these political,

prosecutions. And that's what happened here. What didn't happen in the January 6 cases, and that was political enough. The courts were right there not to seek the terrorism enhancement or terrorism charges, but it is happening here. And the problem is this precedent last. That statute, this is now what the precedent is for what can be charged as domestic terrorism in the United States. The administration changes every four years. So this will be applied to both sides. So it concerns every American. If you're left, if you're right, if you're in the middle, this concerns everyone. A government that punishes its nonviolent critics 10 times more harshly, actually in this case, 30 times more harshly than its violent interruptionist supporters is not a democracy in any meaningful sense.

I want to bring that sledge into the conversation who's been writing some really interesting pieces for The Intercept. Matt, the acting U.S. Attorney General Todd Blanche, who's President Trump is trying to make permanent, welcome the unusually harsh sentences, writing, quote, Antifa terrorists who attack law enforcement and federal facilities will face swift and uncompromising justice. Their violent extremism has no place in our country. The Department of Justice will continue to aggressively investigate, disrupt and prosecute those who threaten law enforcement officers or undermine the rule of law. your response to what has taken place?

Yeah, I mean, I think you can tell from that statement from the acting attorney general that a playbook has now been set and it's going to be pursued in places like Minnesota. A grand jury in Illinois was obviously more skeptical about similar charges, but I think the administration is going to keep pursuing really aggressive charges like this. And they have received a message from these judges now in Fort Worth that they can secure some really harsh sentences from pursuing this playbook. And what do you expect, Matt, the precedent that this sets for people participating in protests elsewhere around the country on different issues? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, some protesters that will make them think twice about, you know, even going out for, you know, you know, nonviolent daytime demonstrations when, you know, conduct can be painted as criminal

and, you know, can be so aggressively prosecuted in places like Texas. You note in your piece, Matt, that several defendants receive sentences longer than many, of course, of the January 6th defendants. You talk about former U.S. Marine Corps reservists Benjamin Song convicted of the shooting, receiving a hundred-year sentence, he said he fired only because he thought an officer was about to shoot another activist. And he also talked about the collective punishment of all of these defendants, he said, anyone who had relationship with him. Talk more about who song is. And also the fact that these people on a July 4th weekend had fireworks, as they're referred to now

explosives. Yes, Song is former military and was painted by the prosecutors as kind of a ringleader in this, you know, brought weapons to the demonstration. Many of the other folks there did not bring weapons. Some of them brought fireworks. And, you know, they say that their intention was just to shoot those fireworks off and show solidarity with folks inside the ICE detention facility. several of them spoke at the sentencing on Tuesday and said they never intended to hurt anybody. One person described a festive atmosphere before the police came. Many of the people who showed up that night were gone by the time the shooting actually started. But, you know, this incident between the responding police and song, which results in one of the police officers wounded,

is really the spark for a very wide-reaching manhunt in the Dallas Fort Worth area that rolled up a bunch of people associated with song and is, you know, just a huge chunk of the kind of left-wing activist cohort in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. In this last minute, we have, Matt Sledge. What struck you most? I mean, you're referring to all these cases that, of course, we've been covering in Chicago, a first grand jury. going after anti-ice protesters had voted not to indict. And now everything has come out and everything has been put aside the charges. Once the judge started to read the grand jury transcripts, you've got a case in Tacoma. What are you concluding at this point? What do you think is most important to follow?

You know, I think we just have to watch for this playbook to be applied elsewhere. In North Texas, in the Fort Worth area, the federal government obviously found judges and jurors who were receptive to their arguments. So I think they may be looking elsewhere to find judges and juries who are similarly receptive. We want to thank you so much for being with us. Matt Sledge, political reporter for The Intercept, will link to your articles at Democracy Now.org. And Sophia Khalid, Deputy Director of the National Security Criminal Defense Center at the Muslim Legal Fund of America, representing one of the Prairieland defendants, Marcela Rueva.

Coming up, we speak with acclaimed journalists, tech activists, sci-fi writer, Kari Docter, author of a new book, The Reverse Centaur's Guide to Life After AI. How to Think About Artificial Intelligence, before it's too late. Stay with us. I think in dystopia by Sarah Michelle Isle. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. I'm Amy Goodman with Nermynne Shea. Earlier this month, Elon Musk became the world's first trillionaire when his company, SpaceX, went public in the biggest IPO in Wall Street history.

SpaceX is spaceflight, satellite internet, social media, and AI conglomerate. The value of SpaceX initially saw. but it's since fallen as part of a global sell-off in tech stocks. On Wednesday, Bloomberg reported that Musk had lost his status as a trillionaire, at least temporarily. This all comes as fears are growing of a possible AI bubble that could collapse, triggering an economic recession. We're joined now by Corey Dr. O'Claim tech activist, journalist, science fiction author, has worked for the Electronic Frontier Foundation for decades. His latest book, The Reverse Centaur's Guide to Life After AI, How to Think About Artificial Intelligence, before it's too late.

His previous book titled, let's see, how should I say it, on a broadcast, imbleepification, but that's not really the title, Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and What to Do About It. We want to thank you so much for being with us, Corey. And also, I want to congratulate you. You have talked publicly about your cancer diagnosis and also put it in the context. of AI, what's good and problematic about it. But congrats on feeling better. Thank you very much. Yes, six days since the radiologist told me that I am cancer-free. So let's hope the next time I go in for a scan, they reaffirm that. And yet you have really shared with people your concerns about AI. When it comes to radiology, talk about how medicine is using it.

So, you know, in my other life, I'm a science fiction writer. And people sometimes think science is about describing a gadget. And I think what science fiction is really about is exploring who the gadget does things for and who the gadget does things too. And that's where radiology comes in. We've heard some pretty credible stuff about how AI can be used to spot solid mass tumors that sometimes humans miss. And, you know, if there was a sales call right now at your local hospital where there was a pitchman for an AI company telling the hospital administrator, here's what we're going to do. Right now you have 10 radiologists. They cost $3 million a year. They review 100 x-rays a day. each and I tell you what, I'm going to sell you a chap off for a million bucks a year,

and it's going to sit in the shadows. And a couple of times a day, it's going to tap your radiologist in the shoulder and say, why don't you take another look at that one? I'd be very happy. That would seem like a real advance on medicine. But that's not how the pitch is going. Now, radiologists have a lot of market power, so I'm not saying that this is where they're going to end up, because right now they're in short supply.

But what the AI companies want to sell you is fire nine-tenths of your radiologists. Save $2.7 million a year. split that between the hospital shareholders and Sam Altman. Take that remaining radiologist and put them in charge of marking the AI's homework. Put them in charge of clicking OK 100 times a minute for the radiology reports that are coming out of the chat bot. And then when it misses something and someone dies, blame that guy. Make him what Dan Davies calls the accountability sync for the AI. And, you know, right now, the way that we're using this extremely interesting and impressing,

of technology is to replace humans and jobs where we don't care if those jobs are done well. And it's pretty awful to be living through. I wrote this book because I got so sick of people demanding that I talk with them about AI because it's just not important enough that we should all be paying attention to it. Massive miscalculation because now I have to go everywhere and talk about AI. If you could comment, the example of radiologists and radiologists, of course, also play a big role in the early detection or the detection of cancer when it's already there. Now, there are a number of leading cancer specialists that increasingly view AI as a vital

transformative tool in oncology, principally for augmenting, but absolutely not replacing medical personnel, scientists, radiologists, doctors, surgeons, etc. Totally. I mean, look, I think we need to understand the material roots of the bubble to get at what's going on here. The industry spent $1.4 trillion on AI so far. It's doubled in the last year. When I wrote the book, a year ago, it was $700 billion. So it's another $700 billion in the last year. They're global revenues, right? All the money all the companies make per year. They claim it's $60 billion a year. It can't be more than 50 because 10 of that $60 billion is the money that

Microsoft gives to Open AI. And Open AI gives back to Microsoft. That's not revenue. Speaking of someone who writes books about, you know, thrillers about accounting fraud, that's not even accounting fraud. It's just a really dumb trick. So they've got $50 billion a year. They're spending $1.4 trillion a year. What do they think they're going to do, right? How are they going to make up the money? It's not like they're going to make it up by adding more customers. AI has very bad unit economics, which is how economists describe what happens when a business sells another one of its widgets or adds another customer. You know, the early web lost money, but every web user made more money for the web companies. Every time they used the web, the web got more profitable. Every

generation of the web is more profitable. AI, every new AI customer loses more money for the AI businesses. Every new use of AI loses the more money. Every new generation loses it. So I think we look at the labor story here. And what we see is what they ultimately want to do is fire high-waged workers and replace them with substandard algorithms and then make us accept substandard products. And that's where they're going to realize the return on this gigantic investment. So talk about your title, the reverse centaur's guide to life after AI. What's the reverse centaur? Yeah, it's not the first time we've had automation and labor come into conflict. There's a rich literature studying the way automation and labor work together. One of the things we know is that when labor drives automation, it's usually in service

to making the product better. And when capital drives automation, it's usually in service to making more of the product, increasing the throughput, because they bought an asset, right? And that asset's depreciating off their books. They want to maximize the use of it before it's used up. And so the person who is in charge of using the machine is exhorted to use it as quickly as possible, which is where we get centaurs and reverse centaurs. A centaur is a person assisted by a machine. So think of a human head on a horse's body. The horse is tireless. It can run faster than you. It's stronger than you, but you are directing it. Right. So you ride a bicycle. You kind of look like a centaur, but you use a spell checker. You're a centaur, too. A reverse centaur is the reverse. It is when a

human is conscripted to do the task the machine directs. So an Amazon bus delivery driver, an Amazon warehouse worker. And reverse center is a terrible thing to be because you're not just being used by the machine. You're being used up by it. It works faster than you. It can work longer than you. So it is working you to exhaustion at the limit of your capacity, which is why the most advanced automation we have in warehouses in America and Amazon warehouses result in three times the injuries relative to other warehouses. That's not a coincidence. There's a causal relationship because they're so automated, they also have more injuries because that automation is being driven by capital, not by labor.

And do you think, I mean, sorry, just to go back to the radiology example, because that's relevant to what you're saying, right? It's possible, as they say, AI can scan, you know, x-rays, mammograms, etc. Like, I don't know, 100 or 1,000 times faster. Anyway, multiples, I shouldn't say, the exact number I don't know. and then a radiologist is to review the findings of AI, because AI also has the capacity to spot very subtle, not because it sees, but because it has patterns or sees trends.

Wouldn't that be an effective use of a reverse centaur model? If the worker is in charge of deciding how the scanning is done, right? The skilled worker who cares about their patient's outcomes is in charge of it, I am willing to stipulate not being a radiologist, I'm willing to stipulate that radiologists know more than I do about how to find tumors. And if they say this is how we think we should use it, not that no worker has ever made a mistake in how they automate their labor, but as a class, I think workers are the best equipped to tell us how they should be using tools. And as I said, I've heard from radiologists say right now we have a lot of market power. And so when we adopt

these tools, we get to dictate how it's being done. But the bubble, the investment does not exist to put workers in the driver's seat, to augment workers. The reason they've spent $1.4 trillion on $50 billion revenue with terrible unit economics is they think that they can fire workers and corral the remainder into accepting substandard working conditions to produce substandard products. So, I mean, just to go back by way of comparison, in the 2000s, there was the massive dot-com bubble, which people also feared, and indeed, as happened, it wiped out when the bubble burst. It wiped out numerous, the majority of internet companies. Nevertheless, these massive corporations now became these huge tech companies from Google to Amazon and Apple. Do you see the possibility of a similar

outcome here? In other words, a lot of the AI now there are tens of thousands of platforms. Most of them will disappear. But there will be ones that are effective. Well, I do think that when the bubble bursts, we're going to have a lot of residue, right? We're going to have like data centers and GPUs at 10 cents on the dollar. We're going to have lots of technicians who know how to use them. We're going to have these open source models that the tech companies have released, but they thought they were just like demos. And it turns out that when you apply lots of research to them to optimize them and improve them,

they can do really impressive things. But there are really important differences between the dot-com bubble on this one. We talked about the unit economics. We can also talk about the fact that if you look back on the business articles of the day, you know, 1999, 2000, it's full of people saying how we'll see, COES cope with all these workers who are demanding the web in the workplace. Today, you go and read those same journals, those same business magazines, and they're full of articles saying, what are CEOs going to do to convince their workers to use AI?

How many workers are they going to have to fire for not using AI enough before workers admit that they want it? So this is just clearly like a very different phenomenon to the one that we had back then. And, you know, as you say, what emerged from it were these giant tech companies. And I don't think it's a coincidence that five or six years later we started to have these other bubbles, because what happened was those growing tech companies hit a limit to their growth because they acquired a saturation in their market, 90% market share in the case of Google and search. And when you stop growing, the market treats you like a less valuable company, not for

ideological reasons, but because a growing company's income will go up next year. And so if you own a piece of it, it's worth more than a company that stopped growing. And so if you're running Google and you've hit a 90% market share or Facebook or any of these other tech monopolies, you have to worry that the market is going to revalue your shares. And that that's going to wipe out the net worth of the individuals who run the company, because after all, they're being paid in shares. It's also going to wipe out your ability to hire people with shares, because they don't want stock in your turkey company, you know, and so that you have to have stories about growth. So I want to go to the subtitle, how to think about artificial intelligence before it's too late.

You advise legislators on legislation. You have, for example, movements all over the country. Earlier this month, for example, voters in Monterey Park in California approved a ballot measure that permanently bans the construction of data centers, new ones, defeating a proposal to build a massive new artificial intelligence site near a residential neighborhood. Talk about the movements of resistance and what you think needs to be done right now. Yeah, this is so heartening. It's such a change from, I think, the way that we tried to do politics or, you know, the progressive movements tried to do politics for so long, which was to be. vote with our wallets, mistaking shopping for politics. What we see is actually when you mobilize movements, especially at the local level, you can really get stuff done. And, you know, I actually got to tip my hat to the right here, because Moms for Liberty proved to us that the dumbest people

you know can make gigantic changes in the material conditions of people on the ground by taking control of these unregarded local offices and involving themselves in these sleepy local political questions like zoning. And so, you know, if those people can do, it and make people's lives so terrible. Imagine what we can do when we organize political movements instead of just standing in the grocery aisle endlessly dithering about which product is the one that will make the most political difference. And if you could talk about, you mentioned in the book, which is a seminal event, the Hollywood writer strike, which you also participated in in 2023. Why did you see that as so important and in fact exemplary? Yeah, well, so these are the only people

have really beat back AI in the workplace. And importantly, they didn't do it by demanding more copyright. We've had more copyright added every couple of years for 40 years. The media industry is now more valuable than it's ever been, and the share of income going to us creative workers is lower than it's ever been, because, you know, when you're bargaining with five studios and four labels and three media music companies and two companies that control all the audio, all the apps, and one company that controls the audiobooks and e-books, it doesn't matter how many rights you have. You're going to bargain them away. It's like giving your bullied kid extra lunch money. You need to intervene organizationally. And what the writers had was not a different copyright. What they had was the right

to sectorally bargain, to bargain with all of the employers in the sector all at once. And that's a thing that the Hollywood Gilds have, because when we passed the Taft-Hartley Act in 1947, they were powerful enough, they got carved out. So, you know, we creative workers, we're at this crossroads. We could demand more copyright, like side with our bosses. They're the ones demanding more copyright. Or we could demand sectoral bargaining. A thing every worker in America would support us in. Do we want to support all the workers in America? Do we want to be on the same side as our bosses? I think, you know, even knowing very little about the technicalities of these issues, and I know lots about it, but even if you know very little, you should say, broadly, I'm on the side of all the other workers, and my boss probably doesn't want what's best for me. In the last 20 seconds, what's most important to do about AI?

Get involved in organizations. Join EFF. EFF.org, join Tech Solidarity and Tech Workers Coalition. unionize your workplace, get involved in local politics. Be part of a movement. Systemic problems have systemic solutions. You can't shop your way out of a monopoly any more than you can recycle your way out of a wildfire. Cori, Dr. Otec journalist, science fiction author, activist, also ambassador for the Electronic Frontier Foundation for decades, his latest book, The Reverse Centaur's Guide to Life After AI, how to think about artificial intelligence before it's too late. Happy belated birthday to Karen Renucci. We're hiring an education program manager.

Check out DemocracyNow.org. And finally, I'll be in Rhode Island this weekend in both Providence for the screening of Steal the Story, please, about Democracy Now on Friday and Saturday, then Saturday and Sunday in Newport. Check our website at DemocracyNow.org. I'll be there with the films directors, T. Leson, and Carl Deal. I'm Amy Goodman, Wynar Meen-Sheikh, for another edition of Democracy. Christina.