Democracy Now! Audio - Democracy Now! 2026-09-30 Wednesday

Episode Date: September 30, 2026

Democracy Now! Wednesday, September 30, 2026

Germany and New York, this is Democracy Now. Their message was unmistakable. If your speech challenges those in power or exposes uncomfortable truth about Palestine, you can be singled out, punished, and made an example, and made into a warning for everyone else. As the Trump administration continues to try to deport Mahmoud Khalil, The Columbia University student protest leader and Palestinian activist is refusing to stay silent. He has just published a remarkable memoir about his life and the 104 days he was held in an ice jail. The book is titled, No Land to Stand on, Notes from Detention.

Then we look at the state of international law as the Trump administration escalates its attack on the international criminal court. The United States is equally opposed to the out-of-control institution known as the International Criminal Court. We will never allow U.S. service members or anyone else to be investigated or given show trials by an anti-American tribunal with no jurisdiction over us. We will speak to the German human rights lawyer of Ufgen Kala, about the international Criminal Court, the 80th anniversary of the end of the Nuremberg trials, and the 1961 assassination of Patrice Lumumba, the first prime minister of the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

Wolfgang Kalak is representing Lumumba's family. They've spent years trying to seek justice from Belgium. All that and more coming up. Welcome to Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. the War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman today broadcasting from Berlin, Germany. The Pentagon said Wednesday it had finished pulling all U.S. forces out of Iraq. The final troops departed from an air base in northern Iraq under an agreement between the Iraqi and U.S. governments. U.S. forces first invaded Iraq in 2003 to overthrow Saddam Hussein and left in 2011. Before returning to Iraq in 2014 to fight the Islamic State group, which had seized much of Iraq. The withdrawal comes amidst the ongoing U.S. and Israeli war on Iran, which has spilled into Iraq

through clashes between U.S. forces and Iran-backed militias. Some Baghdad residents welcome withdrawal of U.S.-led coalition forces from Iraq. This is a local resident. Our feeling, it fills our heart with joy, and I feel on the day of the U.S. forces withdrawal, is like I am born again, and I am 70 years old. The withdrawal of American forces is the withdrawal of the occupier. We should invest, invest to let militias as well surrender their weapons to the government. There's nothing left. Surrender your weapons to the government, and let the government be the one responsible to protect me and you on the ground, sky, and water.

In Iran, in Iran, the Rial has hit yet another record low, trading at more than two and a half million to the dollar, less than a month after its previous record low, as the U.S. Israeli war in Iran continues to take a heavy toll on the economy. This comes as the Trump administrations impose new sanctions on 10 people and companies in China, Hong Kong and Pakistan, that it claims. helped Iran acquire weapons. Meanwhile, the Iranian foreign minister, Abbas Araghji, received U.S. feedback via Qatari mediators in Doha, Tuesday, on a seven-day plan to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. Iran had made the proposal last week, which President Trump rejected leading Qatar to step in and mediate. In the occupied West Bank, more than a hundred Israeli settlers rioted overnight Monday in the village of Jalud, stopping a displaced Palestinian family from going back to their home. Settlers had taken over two houses belonging to the Tubasi family

weeks earlier. Israel's high court had ordered Israeli forces earlier this month to make sure the family could return. But roughly 10 minutes after soldiers escorted the family to their home, the settlers swarmed in, according to witnesses. The settlers, The settlers torch the houses, blocked roads, and threw rocks at Israeli officers and Palestinians. This is Wa'el Tubasi, who was forced to flee his home due to Israeli settler attacks. When we arrived, the houses were damaged beyond description. They damaged everything. The doors, the tiles were removed, the stairs were removed.

They smashed the bathrooms, doors, and windows. They left nothing. everything was broken and removed. In Gaza, Israel killed a senior Hamas commander, Isaldane al-Baik, in an air strike. Palestinian officials say the Israeli strike hit a residential apartment building in Gaza City. A second person died from wounds after the attack, according to Gaza health officials. Later on Tuesday, an Israeli air strike near a medical clinic in the Jabalya refugee camp killed one person. This is a resident of the refugee camp.

The camp is full of residents. Of course, the residents are not a small number, and the houses in the camp are weak. They cannot withstand strikes like these. As you can see, no house avoided damage from this bombing. In a 6 to 3 ruling, the conservative majority in the U.S. Supreme Court is temporarily allowing the Trump administration to continue swiftly deposition. supporting immigrants to third countries they have no ties to. Justices Sonia Sotomayor, Elena Kagan, and Katanji Brown Jackson argued to keep a lower court order in place that block the policy forcing Trump officials to cancel at least one deportation

flight with about 70 immigrants bound to third countries. During Trump's second term, an estimated 25,000 immigrants have been deported from the U.S. to third countries where many have faced torture, arbitrary detention, persecution, and other dangerous conditions. The Supreme Court is expected to hear arguments in the case in December, which will lead to a final ruling. Among the countries, immigrants have been sent to are Liberia, Equatorial Guinea, Honduras, and the Central African Republic under secretive third country agreements with the Trump administration. California's banning local state and federal law enforcement agents from using gloves that can

release painful electric shocks to people in custody. The ban will take effect next year and remain in place until 2030. In August, it was reported ICE, immigration and customs enforcement would spend up to $20 million to purchase thousands of these gloves. The devices are manufactured by compliant technologies LLC based in Lexington, Kentucky, and have been used in recent years by police departments and jails. This comes as ICE is preparing to hire an additional 5,000 new employees by the end of this year. The latest hiring surge was reported by the New York Times and comes after ICE quietly fired a wave of recent hires who were quickly employed by the agency last year without proper vetting or training amidst Trump's mass deportation campaign. In Texas, the Trump administrations filed federal criminal charges against Wilbert Rafael Garces Perez, the 28-year-old Venezuelan asylum seeker who,

was shot by an ICE agent in Austin earlier this month while making deliveries for DoorDash. Federal prosecutors are accusing Garces Pettas of resisting and assaulting a federal officer. The ICE agent who shot Garces Perez was not wearing a body camera. His attorney, Kate Lincoln Goldfinch, had a scheduled call with him Tuesday morning from ICE detention when she heard he'd been taken to a federal courthouse in Austin. She posted this statement on social media. We were able to get to the courthouse, and I was able to see Wilbur. He was clearly very emotionally distraught and in so much pain.

He was dizzy. He was lightheaded. He was wincing. He couldn't believe that this was happening to him. Everything that has happened to him, this is the ninth. day since he's been shot and he still has a bullet inside his body. Clergy leaders of different, clergy leaders of different faiths in California have begun an eight-day 96-mile pilgrimage demanding the shutdown of ice jails.

The march started Tuesday from the troubled Adelanto ice jail in the Mojave Desert and is headed to Los Angeles. This is Michelle Arkin with the group No Camps, California. This is about bringing awareness and helping people understand the inhumane conditions that exist in this facility here, where they have been holding people, many of them illegally, and they have been exposed to abuse and lack of medical care and go without clean water. Former special counsel, Jack Smith, faced off with Republican senators Tuesday at a tense Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, defending the two prosecutions he brought against President Trump for attempting to overturn the results of the 2020 election. Smith said his team followed standard practice and dismissed claims he was politically motivated. This is former special counsel Jack Smith on Tuesday. I stand by my decisions as special counsel, including my decision to bring charges against President Trump.

I made those decisions without regard to. to President Trump's political association, activities, beliefs, or candidacy in the 2024 presidential election. In Spain, the governments issued a ban on all evictions until 2030 as well as an automatic renewal of rental contracts. The proposal still needs to be approved by the Spanish Parliament, where the Prime Minister, Pedro Sanchez's coalition, doesn't hold a majority. This comes after mass protests over Spain's House.

housing crisis erupted in the wake of the eviction of 87-year-old Madrid pensioner Marikamen. According to her lawyer, she will now be returning home where she's lived for 70 years, nearly her entire lifetime. Protesters have set up a camp of more than 100 tents in Madrid's Pueira del Sol Square, and tens of thousands have taken to the streets nationwide. This is a protester. We all have a right to a home. Now it could happen to a person like Mara Carmen, but later on it could happen to you.

They can kick you out of your house and you must defend it because it is a right. President Donald Trump and the world's wealthiest tech executives Tuesday signed a set of voluntary safety standards for artificial intelligence. Trump hosted several members of his cabinet and Congress as well as SpaceX, Elon Musk, Meadows, Mark Zuckerberg, Anthropics, Dario Amadeh, NVIDIAs, Jensen Huang, Open AIs, Greg Brockman, Google, Sunder Pichai, and others in the industry for an event at the White House. President Trump has also renamed Artificial Intelligence, Super Intelligence, and launched a new AI-powered government chatbot named America.gov,

where people can access federal government sources. The AI tool so far cites facts that contradict Trump's allegations of election fraud and other false claims made by his administration. This comes as Trump has repeatedly rejected calls to regulate AI, calling warnings about the threat of super-intelligent machines a hoax. Meanwhile, in California, protesters gather. outside OpenAI's annual Dev Day conference in San Francisco Tuesday. We are demanding that Open AI do the bare minimum, that they cut their contracts with the Pentagon,

that they stop allowing ICE to use their technologies to hire new employees, and that they signed the Democracy Pledge to be one among many businesses who will stand up and defend free and fair elections. And the 26th Right Livelihood Awards were announced. on Wednesday in Stockholm, Sweden. The award is widely known as the Alternative Nobel Prize. The winners include Jalila Haider, a human rights lawyer who defends some of Pakistan's most vulnerable communities, the Rural Women's Assembly for Organizing Rural Women

Across South Africa, the Georgian Young Lawyers Association for Building and Safeguarding democracy in the nation of Georgia and AI researcher Timnit Gavru, who's the founder of the Distributed AI Research Institute. Gibrew spoke to democracy now about how artificial intelligence is entrenching societal biases and inequality. And so we warned about also people interacting with these kinds of, uh, text output by these kinds of systems attributing a mind behind whatever text they're seeing. And so, you know, right now, these chatbots like Claude or ChatGPT are designed to make

you believe that there's some sort of superhuman brain behind whatever is outputting these texts, and that's hugely dangerous. And even though we weren't speaking about chatbots back then, we were already talking about the tendency of people to attribute a mind behind these texts. And so, which means that, you know, they can be deceived into believing that there's something, that something more than a model outputting text. And the final thing we warned about was, what is the cost of pursuing this singular direction in terms of research and resources?

What is the cost of shutting out all other possible futures, all other ways of building machine learning systems, which is a sub-specialty of artificial intelligence or any other kind of paradigm because it seemed like the whole field was only investing in this singular direction of building larger and larger models that are guzzling all of the data

and stealing so many people's works and based on exploited labor and killing the environment. I want people to understand that tech does not have to be the way it is right now. But I always loved math and physics. And I also thought it was a refuge from the messy world of war, which is what made me leave Ethiopian politics. But I later learned that that's not true. Actually, the war in politics that I left is what drives the world of math and science and technology as well. And if we don't understand that, we'll continue to harm our own people and as engineers and scientists build terrible and harmful products instead

of ones that actually support our communities. That was Tim Neat Gavru, the founder of the Distributed AI Research Institute. She is a recipient of the 2026 Right Livelihood Award announced today in Stockholm, Sweden. And those are some of the headlines. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. Coming up, Mahmoud Khalil has just published a memoir. It's called No Land to Stand on. Notes from Detention.

He'll join us live. Stay with us. Solo let me give you to Jesus. That the enganyo no me say different. If a traitor, if a traitor, more than some that those those

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American musician and producer Nicholas Jarre in our Democracy Now studios in New York. This is Democracy Now,

Democracy Now.org, the war and peace report. I'm Amy Goodman in Berlin. in Germany. And I'm Anjali Khameth here in New York. Welcome to our listeners and viewers around the country and across the world. No land to stand on notes from detention. That's the title of a searing new memoir by the first pro-Palestinian campus protester to be jailed by the Trump

administration, Columbia University graduate and Palestinian student protest leader Mahmoud Khalil. On March 8, 2025, Mahmoud was detained by plainclothes police officer. who did not identify themselves in the lobby of his apartment building in Columbia University housing. His wife, Noor Abdullah, who was eight months pregnant at the time, filmed this video of his arrest as Mahmoud was being taken away. Her voice is heard in the clip. Can you please specify what agency is taking him, please? Excuse me. They're not talking to me.

I don't know. Excuse me. The lawyer would like to speak to somebody. Oh, my God. They're literally doing they're running away from me. That was March 8th, 2025. Mahmoud was taken into immigration detention, ultimately transported more than 1,300 miles away to Louisiana.

He spent over 100 days in jail and was denied permission to attend the birth of his first child, Dean. He could only listen on the phone. Mahmoud Khalil's new memoir also looks beyond his own case, recounting the people he met behind bars, including immigrants who'd lived in the United States for years and parents who were separated from their children and what their stories taught him about the broader human cost of the U.S. immigration crackdown. Mahmoud Khalil was released in June of last year and spoke outside the day. detention facility, the ICE jail in Jena, Louisiana. No one is illegal. No human is illegal. That's the message.

The message is justice will prevail. No matter what this administration may try to portray. More than a year after Mahmoud Khalil's release, the Trump administration is still seeking to deport Khalil. The Board of Immigration Appeals has approved his removal, and this week the board denied Khalil's request to end his removal proceedings. His lawyers are pursuing further appeals, including seeking review by the Supreme Court. In his new memoir, Khalil takes on not only the Trump administration, but also Columbia

University, which he sued earlier this month, alleging it failed to protect pro-Palestinian students, instead retaliating against them when they reported harassment. Khalil writes at his new memoir, quote, rather than protecting its doc students, Colombia leaned into the intimidation campaign. In his memoir, Khalil describes the moment just days after his arrest when he came to see himself,

not simply as an individual facing deportation, but as a test case. He writes about his decision to take on the Trump administration and fight for his freedom, saying, quote, my case was the blueprint they wanted to set and the one we had to tear up.

Well, for more, we're joined now by Mahmoud Khalil to discuss his new memoir, No Land to Stand On, Notes from Detention. It was just released this week. Mahmood, thanks so much for being with us. Can you start off by talking about the title, No Land to Stand on? What does that mean to you? Thank you so much, Amy, for having me. No land to stand on is really, to me, is a realization that this,

country that promised me at least safety and stability was not there. And also it talks about my experience. You know, I was born and raised in Palestinian refugee camp in Syria and then I had to flee the country

at the age of 18 to Lebanon and then I had also to leave Lebanon to come here to this country. Only to be surprised that the promise that I was seeking was not there. So it was really a realization but also it's my family story where they are also now scattered around the world

with no place to go back to or really no land to stand on. Mahmoud, you write in your memoir, quote, Today, Palestine is the exception to those rights the world claims as universal. In reality, it is a warning. The rights we are denied were never only ours to lose. Can you talk about what you mean by that? Absolutely. You know, Palestinians are the canary and the coal mine. They start everything, the test case with Palestinians. For example, this deportation campaign, the Trump administration deportation campaign started with me as a Palestinian to chill the speech of others. It's not only chilling the speech of those speaking out for Palestine, but really anyone who's speaking out against this administration in essence. you know, when they started with me, they went right after to the universities, threatening them with federal funding, but also with journalists, you know, going after non-profit and organizations that does anything that this administration deem to be a threat to them.

So that's what I feel why, like, when we talk about Palestine, it is really the warning. And what happened now is a result of so many years of dehumanization against Palestinians, whether in the media or even in the political institutions or any institution in this country, that what made my targeting possible. You know, like now 18 months after my arrest, this administration has never charged me with any crime or even presented any evidence that I committed any crimes. Yet they are able to get away with this because I'm Palestinian. because, you know, a lot of politicians, whether they are Democrats, whether they are Republicans,

they don't care about Palestinians. So this country, when it comes to Palestine, it's really a one-party system that everyone is just against Palestinians. You're right. I am Palestinian. That is not a complication of the story. It is the story. Everything else follows from it. And this remarkable memoir, it's not just your experiences. It's an indictment of the entire system of American democracy. and you compare the failures of American democracy to growing up under the Assad regime in Syria. Yeah, exactly, because what happened to me, you know, I fled forced disappearance and arbitrary detention in Syria, only to be surprised that this happens to me here in a country that supposedly champions human rights, liberty and justice rule of law.

So I wrote this book really to raise the alarm. You know, what's happening behind ICE detention walls is a stain on the U.S. consciousness. So is the Palestinian exception, the fact or the idea that free speech, rule of law, and basic dignities are denied to Palestinians. And Mahmoud. If you can share your experience growing up in Syria, you were, in fact, shot. You lost your friends. explain what happened and how you ended up coming to the United States. Absolutely.

You know, in 2011, when the Syrian people revolted against Assad regime and Egyptians and Tunisians as well, Arab Spring, Palestinians felt also the urge and that earned to their homeland. So we decided to march to Palestine, to the borders. And there was one of thousands of Palestinians who wanted to march back to. Palestine. And while, you know, we peacefully marched to Palestine, it was shot by Israeli soldiers while trying to cross the border. And then, you know, when also in Syria, I was helping out with relief and also, I couldn't just stay silent while my Syrian neighbors were being killed and kidnapped by the Assad regime. So we started to organize as well to help out our

our Syrian brothers and sisters. And that's when, you know, Assad cracked down on any sort of civil organizing and kidnapped two of my friends on January 9, 2013. And in a day, I had to leave the country to flee to Lebanon. So I only had that one day really to flee the country to Lebanon. And in Lebanon, I lived, you know, in Shatira camp, one of the largest Palestinians. refugee camps in Lebanon where the situation was also so bad in there. But I got to teach myself English there, get into school, and eventually get work in Lebanon.

And that's how sort of like my journey from Syria to Lebanon and eventually to the United States. But my story is only one story of the Palestinian story, really. how, you know, it's all a result or a consequence of the Nekba of the 1948, that we had to go through all of this. You know, my grandparents had to live in tents. They had to upgrade it to mud houses, and my father was born into a tent. And then when we built houses, you know, the Syrian revolution happened, and my family had to leave everything behind and leave.

Mahmoud, you were a green card holder and you write about how, you know, for many immigrants, the green card is the promise and the finish line, and yet you were detained. You know, all these months later, as you're still fighting this case in the courts, you know, give us an update on what's happening with your case and why you believe you were chosen to have, you know,

to be detained, why you're going through all of this. Yeah. So, you know, this case or this fight is not only about whether I get to stay in this country. It is really about whether anyone in this country get to speak out for Palestine against this administration and not punished for it. Right now, the Trump administration is really putting the full weight of the Justice Department to deport me. They're trying it through the immigration system. As you've mentioned, the new introduction, the immigration. Board of Appeals, which is fully controlled by the Trump administration, refused to open or reopen my case because, you know, New York Times reported that there were a lot of, I would say, like, a lot of corruption, really, like in my case where a judge was appointed to look into my case.

And that judge was the chief judge. but also over many other individuals also intervened to make sure that there is a certain outcome in my case. So we know that we wouldn't get justice from the immigration kangaroo courts in this country. That's why we're turning into the federal court. But also there, the Trump administration is blocking us from seeking neutral. a neutral judge or a federal judge, Article 3 judge from there. So they are claiming that we should first go to the immigration court. And once it's that done, we can go to a federal court in Louisiana,

which is known to be one of the most right-wing or favorable to this administration in particular. And for that, we're going to the Supreme Court. that next month or this month in the 19th of October, we are petitioning to the Supreme Court to take my case, because, you know, our ask is very simple that no federal agent or no government should have the power to detain anyone over constitutional claims or over their freedom of speech. So it's very simple. And if you could remind me of the last question, I know there was a question.

was a part of the question. You're right about how, you know, there was a moment in detention when you realized your detention wasn't arbitrary or a mistake or accidental. And, you know, the president himself was tweeting about you. Exactly. I think that was the moment, you know, when the first couple of days in detention, it felt to me that this was a mistake, that there's no way they would come after me. I was a permanent resident.

I'm still a permanent resident. never committed a crime, but when I saw that the president was actually tweeting about me and the language of that tweet or even of the officials, it seemed to me that this was way bigger than me. That was a very calculated measure or a very calculated, I would say, targeting to chill the speech of others. They wanted someone who they can make an example out of so that, the hundreds and millions of American citizens and non-American citizens would fear speaking out

against the U.S. support to Israel. So that was the point where I was like, you know, to me, this is way bigger than just like me, my ability to stay in this country. It is really about the ability of so many people to speak out for Palestine. We're talking to Mahmoud Khalil. His book is just out this week. It's called No Land to Stand on Notes from Detention. Mahmoud, I want to go back to that day that you were detained.

It was actually International Women's Day, March 8th, 2025, just before your detention. You wrote to Columbia's interim president at the time, Katrina Armstrong, appealing directly to her and to the University for protection. Quote, interim President Armstrong, since yesterday I've been subject to a vicious, coordinated, and dehumanizing doxing campaign. They've falsely labeled me a security threat and called for my deportation. Their attacks have incited a wave of hate, including calls from my deportation and death threats. I have outlined the wider context below. yet Columbia has not provided any meaningful support or resources in response to this escalating threat.

I haven't been able to sleep fearing that ice or a dangerous individual might come to my home. I urgently need legal support and I urge you to intervene and provide the necessary protections to prevent further harm, unquote. Again, that letter on the day that you all, ultimately were detained just before. You were then held by ICE for 104 days. And earlier this month, you filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against Columbia University, accusing the school of failing to protect you and other pro-Palestine student activists from harassment. You've denounced Colombia's, quote,

deliberate indifference and discrimination aimed at intimidating Palestinian students. Can you explain exactly what this? lawsuit is about? You know, Amy, Colombia laid the groundwork for my targeting by the Trump administration by their not only, you know, indifference to our pleas, but also for participating in verifying us as a movement. As you've mentioned, Colombia did not reply or answer any of my emails. Instead, you know, Colombia fueled a very dangerous rhetoric against Palestinian students and their allies on campus.

They harbored these actors who smeared and Doxmi and other Palestinian students as well. And in fact, just recently they settled with some of these students and giving them money for harming us. And I was very shocked when I joined Colin. by the level of anti-Palestinian bigotry that's institutionalized within every department in that school. You know, I was in the School of International and Public Affairs SEPA, and its dean, Dean Yari-Millow, was also very indifferent to Palestinian concerns. And her only really concern was how to protect Israel, how to do more events and more events about, about Israel. Like a day after October 7, she immediately called for a webinar, inviting Hillary Clinton, to assess Israel's next steps. And these next steps, of course, included the killing

and genociding of the Palestinian people. So Colombia was not only an idle actor in this or that they did not do anything. They, in fact, helped fuel this campaign against me. And in one of our cases, or the cases of these students who were detained by the transatlanticians, Trump administration, the Rubio determination, in fact, quotes what Colombia said about the protests, what falsely said about these protests, because the ideologues on the board of trustees, it was more important for them to protect Israel than actually protecting freedom of speech, than protecting academic freedom, than protecting the students. You know, Colombia missed an opportunity to be an institution that would respect a human rights law,

that would respect just basic dignities and would, you know, be a place to have a difficult conversation. Instead, it chose to surveil its students to bring the police more than four times to brutalize its own students, expel and suspend over 100 students. Just imagine 100 students, over 100 students, between the ages of 17 and 20, who's their future now in limbo just because they dared to protest a genocide. So that's why I'm bringing this lawsuit because no student, regardless of their background, regardless of whether they were Palestinians or anything, no students should go through the hill

that Colombia put us through over the past three years. Mahmoud, you write, had Colombia possessed the power to deport me, I have little doubt it would have done so. I want to ask you about another lawsuit you filed in July, a federal lawsuit against several top Trump administration officials. two pro-Israel groups and a conservative think-tack accused of conspiring to suppress your criticism of Israel and constitutional rights to free speech. Can you talk about this lawsuit? So, you know, the White House, when they arrested me, they touted about a blueprint. They said

this arrest would be a blueprint to go after everyone who speaks for Palestine. And that blueprint is called the Esther Project. It's a document or a policy document. document produced by the Heritage Foundation. And then it was produced in 2024. And what they said, that to implement this project, we need an administration that's favorable to us, that would work with us. And as part of that project, it was detaining and deporting international students to chill the speech of other students who dare to speak out about Palestine.

So we're sewing now government officials also in their personal capacity because we're suing them under the KKK Act. It's a civil rights act that was, you know, brought during the reconstruction era to really, you know, after the abolition of slavery and to protect the right of black Americans, this law was brought because there were actors conspiring together to deprive black Americans. people from their rights. So we're bringing this lawsuit under that law. And, you know, a judge in Massachusetts, a Reagan appointee confirmed what we are alleging right now, which is that government officials conspired with themselves to deprive these non-citizen students so they can to make an example out of them. And that judge, you know, like in his proceeding, said, I've never seen.

such a flagrant, just like assault on the Constitution or assault on the, just the rule of law. So, and I'm sewing because I'm seeking accountability. I'm sewing because no one should go through this, whether, you know, if they were able to deport a Palestinian for his views, they would be able to deport anyone else for their views, whether this administration or any other administration. Mahmoud Khalil, you were in that Gina Ice Jail for 104 days during which time your son, Dean, was born. In your audiobook, you do not read that chapter. You have someone else read it.

And I'm wondering if you can talk about why and talk about what that meant. And you tell the story not only of your, of missing your own. baby's birth, but of other people in that jail, another man in the same situation. And that's also part of the power of this book, the other stories that you tell, Mahmoud. You know, missing the birth of my child of Dean was one of the most difficult times in detention. And it's something I really, you know, it brings so many emotions to me that, I was stripped that very, I would say, divine moment, like to be with my wife, Noor, at a moment where every couple, like, wish to be together. And as you've mentioned, this is not only about me.

This book is about a story of so many incredible men, fathers and workers who came here seeking safety and a better future only to be snatched off the street. You know, I write about Alexander, the young man who was begging for safety in this country, only to be deported, only to be denied the ability to stay in safety here. And then I learned a few months later that he was killed when deported to Honduras. I talk about my fellow inmates who also were not able to see their families. You know, when I would go to the visitation room in Gina, Louisiana, that detention center housed over 1,200 detainees. But when I go to the visitation room, it's empty because their families were frightened to come and visit them, because it was in the middle of nowhere that it's in the middle of a swarm. So their families would feel like I had to tell someone that your mom shouldn't come visit you because she's also undocumented.

So just imagine that you have to tell that to an 18-year-old that your mother shouldn't visit you because they may arrest her. So that was the terror, the cruelty in these detention centers. And they were designed also to make people give up immediately. So the conditions, the bad conditions in these detention centers, like the constant lights, the low temperature, the bad food, it's all designed so that you give up. your case and sign your deportation orders immediately. Because if you want to fight, you need to be able to stay in that detention center for minimum of six months, but that could go up like a few years. You know, and only 104 days I lost over 15 pounds.

So imagine like staying for a year there. Mahmur Halil, we want to thank you so much for being with us, author of the new memoir, are no land to stand on. Notes from detention, all safety, as you travel the country, talking about your book. You'll be in Somerville, Massachusetts tonight. You're going to be at Seattle Town Hall

and all over the country. Coming up, German human rights lawyer, Wolfgang Kellach, of the European Center for Constitutional and Human Rights. He's usually here in Berlin, but he's in New York, and we're going to talk to him there. Stay with us.

You know, I must confess them from the darkest deaths where nothing's like, what is not left, left, world keeps spinning by Saul Relics. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.org, the war and peace report. in Berlin, Germany, where still the story, please, is screening at the spore on Thursday night. You can check our website at DemocracyNow.org. Anjali Komet is in New York. As we broadcast from Berlin, we end today's show with a discussion on the state of international law. Tomorrow, Thursday, is the 80th anniversary of the end of the Nuremberg trials following World War II,

in which leaders of Nazi Germany were successfully prosecuted for war. crimes and crimes against humanity. The Nuremberg trials ended October 1st, 1946. They're widely seen as a precursor to modern courts of international justice like the ICC, the International Criminal Court. Well, today the ICC is under immense pressure from the United States over its issuance of arrest warrants for Israeli leaders for war crimes committed in Gaza. This is President Trump attacking the ICC at the UN General Assembly in New York, last. week. The United States is equally opposed to the out-of-control institution known as the International Criminal Court. We will never allow U.S. service members or anyone else to be investigated or given

show trials by an anti-American tribunal with no jurisdiction over us. You're an evil group of people. I call on all nations that are members of the ICC to officially resign from this rogue institution immediately. The U.S. has sanctioned members of the ICC, including prosecutors, judges, and staff, and is reportedly preparing to issue sanctions against the court itself. On Monday, the German foreign minister visited the ICC in the Hague in a show of support for the court. Germany is the ICC's second largest financial contributor. Nevertheless, German Chancellor Friedrich Merch said last year that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu would be able to visit Germany without arrest in contravention of German law.

In a statement ahead of his visit, the German foreign minister, Johann Vaterfoul, said, quote, Germany is mindful of its own history and knows what the outcome can be when state power overrides the rule of law and humanity. Therefore, for Germany, support for the ICC is not only a foreign policy issue. It's a part of our historical responsibility, he said. For more, we're joined now by Wolfgang Kalak, founder of the European Center for Human Rights, ECCHR. Usually he is based here in Berlin, Germany, where I am, but he's joining us from New York and has a new book. It's titled The Power of Law, Reconciling Legality and International

Justice. Wolfgang, we're going to do this conversation in two parts. And in this part, if you can start off by talking about Germany's position on the International Criminal Court, the all-out frontal assault that President Trump is waging on the court from the massive sanctions and beyond. And why you feel on this 80th anniversary of the end of the Nuremberg trials, you feel international law is so important. So hello, Amy, from New York. I'm so sorry to miss you in Berlin. It's a very good take to start with the 80s anniversary of the Nuremberg trials.

And it's so sad to remember that. the core group behind the Nuremberg trials were Robert Jackson, Telford Taylor and Benjamin Ferris, the U.S. prosecutors. And what they had in mind, and Robert Jackson said it explicitly, and later on, Telford Taylor wrote this book from Nuremberg to Vietnam, it was very clear. This is not only about the Nazi crimes. It is about to establish a universal rule that crimes against humanity, genocides and war crimes shouldn't be left impugn. And so it was so important that in 2002, the International Criminal Court was established. It's a pity that many of the most important military powers, such as the U.S., but also China, Russia and others, Israel, Iran, didn't join the statute.

But still, the court needed its time to get off the ground, but now they have an ongoing series of important trials. And we have to be clear, it's not only about Palestine. The sanctions against the court are, first of all, a big stroke against the international criminal justice, internal justice as such, because the ICC is one of the light towers, one of the most important international institutions. So they want to destroy the institutions of the international justice system. But the sanctions would also deprive not only the Palestinian victims, but also the Ukrainian victims, the Rohingya victims,

the sub-Saharan refugees and many others of their rights, the rights which we have been fighting for many decades right now. And Wolfgang, I mean, we're living in a... moment where international law is under assault on so many different fronts, whether we look at, you know, the war in Iran, what's been happening in Gaza for the past few years, Ukraine, so many other Venezuela, so many places, you know, how do you retain faith in the possibility of international law in this context? I mean, when you look at Nuremberg 80 years ago, when you look at the Eichmann trial in the 60s, when you even look in the 90s, the Rwanda and Yugoslavia

The survivors of state violence, the families and the civil society actors had not a real stand in these trials. But over the last decades, we entered the stage of international criminal justice, and it is so important. I mean, we just listened to Nicolas Jar from Chile. The Pinochet arrest, 1998, was a wake-up call for all of us. there is a constant row of important trials initiated by

civil society actors and that is a progress of the last couple of years despite the ongoing attack against international law, the ongoing ignorance and in particular the ongoing double standards of the West.

You know, Wolfgang Kahlik, you are representing Patrice Lamumba's family, for example, his grandchildren, he was assassinated in the Congo in the Democratic Republic of Congo in what, 1961. In these last minutes we have together, especially for, you know, in the world when people are so isolated when it comes to having global information, not to mention going back in time. Can you tell us Patrice Lamumba's story and what his family's demanding now, who assassinated him?

A lot of people are lamenting that the post-war, liberal, West-dominated international order, is eroding. And of course, we're facing a change. But we have to be very clear. The liberal order was also the history of disorder in many parts of the world. 1953 overthrow of Mossadegh, 1956 overthrow of Jakobo Abens, Iran, Guatemala and then 61, the first democratically elected leader of Congo,

Patrice Lumumba, kidnapped, tortured, assassinated, and then dumped in acid. Before that, the civilized Belgium soldiers who were at the spot break out his teeth and took them as souvenirs to Belgium. This is a story of the West preventing democratically elected leaders in the global south from distributing the goods of their country to the peoples of the country. That's the one side of the story. So this goes impugned for more than 60 years.

But then, as I said, we enter. the stage of international criminal justice. So the Lumumba family, more than 10 years ago, went to a Belgian lawyer and the Belgium law firm started a criminal case against 10 of the surviving Belgium participants in the murder and in the abduction. One of them was indicted last year, and this is incredibly important. This will stay. This is a historical document. The indictment of a federal prosecutor in Belgium says that Patrice Lumuma's assassination is kidnapping, constitutes a war crime. We have 30 seconds. The only accused died, but we are going to prepare a civil reparation case against the

state of Belgium in the near future. You will hear from us. And we're going to do part two of this conversation, hear more about this, both. Gangaluk, founder of the European Center for Constitutional and Human Rights. His new book is titled The Power of Law, Reconciling Legality, and International Justice. He's speaking to us from New York. He usually is right here in Berlin, Germany. I'm here because the film about democracy now, steal this story, please.

We'll be screening at Spora in Berlin. You can check our website at DemocracyNow.org. That's October 1st, Thursday at 7 p.m. afterwards. I'll be doing the Q&A with the director, Carl Deal. I'm Amy Goodman with Anjali Comet.