Democracy Now! Audio - Democracy Now! 2026-10-21 Wednesday

Episode Date: October 21, 2026

Democracy Now! Wednesday, October 21, 2026

From Los Angeles and New York, this is Democracy Now. Is it even possible to advance targeted pro-human uses of AI without tipping our already overheating planet into full-blown collapse? These questions are urgent, especially as the bubble currently holding up the global economy audibly pisses air. As the AI giant Anthropic reports an $80 billion loss for the first half of this year, we'll speak to Naomi Klein, co-author of the new book, End Times Fascism, and the Fight for the Living World. She just spoke at the AI People's Summit. She'll join us with her co-author, Astra Taylor. But first to Albania, where mass anti-government protests continue. amidst opposition to a luxury resort backed by Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump. Testing, they're not seeking dialogue.

They just want something simple, the resignation of Rama, of the Prime Minister. That's simple. All that and more coming up. Welcome to Democracy Now. Democracy Now.org, the war and peace report. I'm Amy Goodman in Los Angeles with Anjali. comment in New York with today's headlines. In Yemen, fighters from Ansar Allah commonly referred to as the Houthis attacked a residential neighborhood in Thais Tuesday, killing two teenage girls and

wounding six others. Ansar Allah have nearly surrounded Yemen's third largest city and cut off most of its supply routes. Thaaz is currently held by the Saudi-backed government. UN human rights chief Volkot Turk warned that residents are in serious danger as food runs short and prices climb. This is a resident of Taiz. Citizens are struggling with gas cues and there was no gas at the station. Only one tanker came in and it wasn't enough. Taya's city is not besiezed by the Houthis. In southern Yemen, the death toll from an Ansarala missile strike on a government training camp has risen to 73.

The UN Refugee Agency reports that more than 200,000, 150,000 Yemenis have been displaced since the war flared up again in July between Ansarala and the Saudi-backed government. Meanwhile, Britain says it will step up its military support to Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia executed a Bangladeshi man and woman in Mecca last week after convicting them of a supposed, quote, indecent act inside a mosque. Bangladesh says it was not informed of the execution. The execution has sparked public outcry in Bangladesh since more than 3 million Bangladeshis work and live in Saudi Arabia. According to Amnesty International, Saudi Arabia has executed around 100 people this year.

Many of them were foreigners convicted of drug offenses. In Gaza, Israeli strikes killed at least seven Palestinians Tuesday, including a married couple and a 17-year-old and separate incidents across the Gaza Strip. Despite last October's so-called ceasefire, Israeli strikes have killed at least 1,500 Palestinians in Gaza. This is a brother of a Palestinian killed in an Israeli air strike earlier this month. We're supposed to be in a ceasefire period, but honestly, we are not seeing a ceasefire or anything. The war is still going on. Assassinations are continuing, and the shelling has not stopped.

We are appealing to and calling on those responsible for us to put an end to these assassinations and attacks. because we are a people who want to live. In the occupied West Bank, Brad Lander, the Democratic nominee for New York's 10th Congressional District and former New York City comptroller has been detained by the Israeli military, along with at least 80 rabbis, volunteers, and activists accompanying Palestinian farmers.

Lander wrote an ex, quote, We were simply harvesting olives in a grove near Nehalim in the West Bank. The occupation is a crime under international law. harvesting olives isn't a crime under any law I know. In a statement released by Rabbis for Human Rights, acting executive director Anton Goodman said, we came to accompany farmers to land they have not been able to reach in three years, and after two hours of quiet harvesting,

large forces arrived and closed the area. No one could have known about this order in advance. Instead of protecting people working their own land, the army is removing them from it and detaining those who came to stand beside them. Congresswoman Rashida Thleb is calling on the Department of Justice to arrest the Israeli military commander accused of killing five-year-old Palestinian girl Hind Rajab and six of her relatives as they hid inside the family's car while attempting to evacuate Gaza City in 2024. The Hindrajab Foundation has filed a legal complaint demanding the arrest and prosecution of Sean Glass on war crimes. Glass is currently in the United States. The Foundation on Monday posted photos of Glass in New York City.

city. Glass reportedly led the Israeli military's so-called vampire empire empire company of the 52nd Armored Battalion. The Hindrajab Foundation's general director, Diab Abu Jaja, said in a statement, Glass is not just another man implicated in the killing of Hindrajab. He is the man who most likely gave the order to open fire on the vehicle carrying Hind and members of her family, including other children. That Glass can walk the streets of the United States as though nothing has happened is intolerable. he must be brought to justice, unquote. Russia has freed a 74-year-old U.S. citizen who had been imprisoned for over four years,

accused of fighting as a mercenary in Ukraine. Stephen Hubbard spent decades working abroad as an English teacher. He reportedly moved to the eastern Ukrainian city of Izum in 2014. The city was seized by Russia in 2022. U.S. special envoy, Steve Whitkoff, praised the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, for Hubbard's release, saying, quote, the whole nation sends their thanks. Whitkoff is currently in St. Petersburg meeting with Putin.

This comes after President Trump reached a major energy deal with Putin to import millions of tons of Russian diesel. Trump's surprise announcement earlier this month waives a sweeping sanctions law he signed in September, targeting Russian oil and gas revenues used to fund the war in Ukraine. In related news, the Wall Street Journal reports Elon Musk has downgraded the bandwidth speed of a military-grade version of satellite internet provider Starlink used in Ukraine.

Both Trump and Musk have expressed anger at Kiev over its recent attacks on Russian diesel refineries. Last week, Musk claimed only the Pentagon and Trump had the authority to limit the use of Starlink. France is planning a massive surge in police forces as more nationwide protests are planned for this weekend. The latest deployment announced. by French Prime Minister, Sebastian Le Corneux,

comes after hundreds of thousands of demonstrators marched in over 140 cities across France on Saturday, demanding relief from the rising cost of living, improvements to education and other issues. An estimated 2,400 protesters were arrested on Saturday. This is a lawyer representing a student. Sometimes the arrests are clearly organized simply to terrify protesters

and ensure that a large number of people are arrested so that it discourages these protests from returning to Square D. Republic or Square D. Lapistil to assert their rights. In Italy, the government is deploying 500 troops to Milan after days of protests against the rising cost of living. It comes as Italy's Prime Minister, Georgia Maloney, approved new security measures, making it easier to prosecute minors over 14. This is Prime Minister Maloney. And preventive detention, which until now applied only to adults,

will also be extended to minors. Fourth, Milan will receive 500 additional military personnel until the end of the year, working alongside the police and the Caribbeanary, and we are strengthening the juvenile justice system with more magistrates and more places in detention facilities so that the certainty of punishment also applies to 16-year-olds. President Trump on Tuesday told reporters that Democratic Congress member Ilhan Omar could go to jail. His comments come days after Homeland Security federal agents raided Omar's home as part of Trump's efforts to strip Omar of U.S. citizenship and deport her.

The Trump administration has claimed without evidence that Omar committed immigration fraud in her naturalization process. This is President Trump. Well, she could be. She could also go to jail. I mean, she could also go to jail. You know, they keep talking about deportation. Now, she could go to jail. This is just my opinion.

I think she's a sick, a very dishonest person. But who hates our country? And she comes from a country that is essentially not even a country, Somalia. It's a real... In California, Los Angeles election officials say a list compiled by the Department of Justice of some 20,000 alleged non-citizen registered voters includes a high percentage of people born in the United States. The new revelations come after a court filing by California state and local officials in response to a lawsuit filed by the Trump administration.

Last week, the DOJ gave California 48 hours to segregate the ballots of those named on the list, which local officials blasted as unreliable after an early review of the voter's records. California said in its Tuesday filing, quote, at best, this litigation is a reckless political stunt. At worst, it threatens to disenfranchise thousands of Californians this election. In Texas, Democratic State Representative and Goberts, senatorial candidate Gina Innohosa filed a lawsuit Monday seeking access to 1,200 pages of heavily redacted emails between trillionaire Elon Musk and Texas Republican Governor Greg Abbott.

The governor's office refused to release the communications last year to media outlet the Texas newsroom, arguing they were exempted from public records laws due to, quote, information that is intimate and embarrassing and not of legitimate concern to the public, unquote. State Representative Inohosa's lawsuit accuses Governor Abbott of violating a Texas statute that grants lawmakers access to public records, including confidential information. What this is about is we have the world's only trillionaire getting massive tax breaks from this governor after giving him over $500,000 in campaign contributions. Inahosa alleges that in return, Governor Abbott gave Elon Musk $1.6 billion in tax breaks for his planned TerraFab project, a massive semiconductor manufacturing hub in Grimes County. She also pointed to Abbott's support for tens of millions of dollars in grant funding to SpaceX and a broadband internet contract worth over $100 million that was awarded to Musk's Starlink Internet service. This comes as FEC filings show Elon Musk was responsible for more than half of the internet.

all fundraising to the Republican-aligned Super PAC, the Senate Leadership Fund, during the third quarter of the year. Musk has spent at least $168 million on the Texas Senate race in support of MAGA Republican Ken Paxton against Democrat James Talarico. The New York Times is reporting that a prominent Venezuelan billionaire, Julio Herrera Velutini, who was seeking clemency from the Trump administration after facing bribery charges, hired Alina Haba, Trump's former lawyer, from the Justice Department in a $50 million deal. In exchange, Haba would serve as general counsel

at a company set up by Herrera's daughter. Weeks after Haba started her work at the company, President Trump granted Herrera a full and unconditional pardon. According to the Times, Haba was finalizing her role at the company while she was still serving as U.S. attorney in New Jersey and is a senior advisor to former Attorney General Pam Bondi. Anne ProPublica is reporting

that defense contractor Navi, made a campaign cash for contracts deal with the late Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, as well as Democratic Congressmember James Clyburn and Republican Congressmember Joe Wilson. Navitech CEO Martin Cow reportedly told federal agents that he would bribe public officials in exchange for government contracts. Cow remembered Graham saying, quote, this is how much I want and how much I am going to give you. Soon after President Trump returned to office, the FBI agents investigating the case were purged. And those are some of the headlines.

This is Democracy Now. Democrysnow.org, the War and Peace Report. I'm Anjali Khamuth in New York with Amy Goodman in Los Angeles. Coming up, we look at Albania, where mass anti-government protests continue amid opposition to a luxury resort backed by Jared Kishner and Ivanka Trump. Garden by Nicholas Jarre to see our interview with him and his performances in our studio go to DemocracyNow.org. Yes, this is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. I'm Amy Goodman in Los Angeles with Anjali Comet in New York.

In Albania, student-led anti-government protests have rocked the capital Tehrana for more than a week, as thousands have taken to the streets to call for the resignation of Prime Minister Eddie Rama. Last week, the Albanian Student Union called. for strikes and demonstrations at the Ministry of Education to protest high tuition costs, poor university conditions, a lack of jobs and corruption. At least half a million young Albanians have left the country over the last decade in search of better economic opportunities. Initial protests have escalated into ongoing clashes with police, leading to hundreds of injuries and arrests, widespread damage to government buildings, street,

lights and private property. Riot police have deployed tear gas, water cannons, sound grenades, and rubber bullets against the protesters. These are some of those protesters, in their own words. What does Albania want? It wants a revolution, a change, a complete overthrow of the system because it can't go on like this, because these people have become billionaires, super billionaires, and there are very poor people here. education, healthcare, everything has gone downhill since many years. Yeah, basically. But all of the politicians from both parties, the main parties, should be gone, basically.

This is what the new generation wants. For us to stop the protest, first of all, Adirama should resign. Immediately, like at the second that he resigns, his whole cabinet should resign. They deserve prison for every corruption that they have done. They have done so many, I mean, I cannot. begin to the account with my fingers what they have done with this country. The corruption is on levels unseen, unseen in any other state of the world. Albania's protests first began in May when environmentalists rallied against a luxury resort development

on the ecologically sensitive, Cazan Island. The project is backed by President Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, and has been fast-tracked by the Albanian government. Protests against the development grew into what is known as the Flamingo movement, which has rallied against government corruption for months and has now been joined by students in this latest wave of unrest. On Sunday, Prime Minister Eddie Rama set up chairs outside parliament in a symbolic gesture for dialogue.

Protesters calling for his resignation later smashed the chairs. Rama is leader of the Socialist Party and has a majority in Parliament. He's been in power for 13 years and has so far refused to resign. The next elections are scheduled for 2029. During a live stream on Sunday, Rama said protests could hurt Albania's bid to join the European Union by 2030 and claimed protesters were linked to Antifa. They are young men and women who have ideologized and radicalized under pressure or inspiration of the dark and new force that has emerged in Europe and the United States, which the President of the United States has designated a terrorist organization.

Antifa. For more, we're joined by Borah Memma, long-time labor organizer, researcher, and activist. She's also a founding member of the left-wing political party, Levisia Bosch, which means movement together. We spoke to her from Albania in July. Today, she's joining us from London. Bora, thanks so much for joining us again. if you can describe what is happening in the streets today in Tehrana and around Albania, the dramatic scenes that are unfolding in the streets,

and also how it all began this development on Cazan Island backed by President Trump's son-in-law and his daughter, Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump. Thank you, Amy, for having me again in democracy now. It's a very, it's an honor for me and also for everyone who has been protesting for months to be in this program again and to represent and to speak up about what's happening in Albania. The last week has been quite dramatic due to the fact that the violence and the brutalism that the police have been showing to the protesters has never been seen in the country before, not even in 1991 when the, a communist party of Albania was still in power, and it was a one-state party, and it was a dictatorial regime. So what we have been seeing so far is something unseen in the streets of Albania. This is not a separate protest. It's not just a student protest. This is part of the ongoing

more than 143 days of the Flamingo Revolution on the streets, but it has a huge turn, because after more than 135 days of peaceful protests, although there were many arrests and brutality shown by the police in specific protests close to the parliament, as they happen each week, all the other days have been quite peaceful protests. What we see since last week, since last Tuesday, is that since the student decided to boycott the university.

So the academic year starts in Albania in the beginning of October and students decided that there is no point to go to university for as long as there is this huge protest happening for so many months. There is massive corruption since the start of the protest with opposing the Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump, hijacking the Sazan Island and the natural protected areas of Zvernetzi in southwest of Albania coastline. Students decided to boycott the classes. Professors are supporting students. And it's this outrage because so many other corruption scandals have been identified during summer, so many other ministers or high-functioners like the head of the Albanian Secret Service, like the Albanian CIA.

She's under house arrest because she was found out to be having an affair and also to leak state secret data to the underground Prime Minister of Albania, Ergusagasy, which is the guy who does all the dirty work for Edirama. So all this outrage and the fact that students find no future in Albania, you must have seen, you also mentioned it before that 100,000s of people have left the country in one decade. Most of them are young people, people who see no future, people who are forced to be migrants, just like myself. We don't want to be migrants. We want to live in our country. But we are forced to live the country because there are no jobs.

There is no future for us. It's impossible for Albanians to even pay the rent or to have the prices higher than in so many supermarkets. Even compared to Germany, the prices in supermarkets are higher than in Germany. But when it comes to the wages, they are the lowest in Europe or the pensions. Like many of us have to migrate because we need to support our retired parents. Many of us have to migrate because the only development model that the government proposes is to clean the toilet. of the rich and the mafia in luxurious resource like the one that Trump and Kushner

and the national oligarchs and mafia in Albania are constructing. So it started as environmental and against the land grab and protest. And it has developed in the huge anti-corruption protests that even if you compare it to the other protests happening around Europe, mostly from students and the youth, It has more an anti-systematic protest as you heard, people demand a revolution. They want democracy.

They want democracy now. Albania is living in an authoritarian regime. Unfortunately, as you mentioned, the police violence has been extreme. There are more than 500 people being arrested. And due to the fact that the police stations are full, the police is now beating up the people severely, even peaceful protesters or people who are even randomly walking on the streets, beating up to break their limbs so they can't go out in the protest

in the following days. People who have been kept in prison cells, although the court has stated that these are illegal arrests, they've been kept there for many days, and in the first 72 hours, they have even been deprived from water and food. So we have an extreme breach and violation of human rights, and it's terrifying if you think about the fact

that Albania is a country that is supposed to join EU before 2030. And unfortunately, you see the European Commissioner or the European Commission president as Rusula von der Leyen, who say that they trust that the government will fulfill their promise and meet their criteria as to join EU. And Borra, can you explain who the Prime Minister is Eddie Rama? He's from the center-left socialist party. But the kind of repression that we're seeing on the streets and the bravery of the protesters, where does this discontent come from? Idirama pretends his central left,

but he changes his position depending on what his interests are. So he can pretend he's a socialist. He can have an anti-fascist rhetoric when it comes to a specific socialist electorate who is nostalgic due to the anti-fascist legacy of Second World War. And he is not worried at all to kneel to Georgia Melioni, the far-right Prime Minister of Italy to sit

or also to have negotiations and have refugee camps in Albania as an extraterritorial which is against international law because refugees are being sent from Italy to camps like to prisons in Albania. So when it comes to his own interest,

Adirama doesn't care. Adirama says he's the head of the socialist party and he is the head of a socialist party but socialist party is not even center left is not even right. It's a criminal organization. It's an organized crime organization linked to the mafia. There are so many international reports that state that Albania is a narco state. Albania is controlled by the mafia. Even the latest arrest and prosecutions that have

been sent forward by the special prosecutor supported by the EU because it's independent. Luckily, it's not dependent on the Albanian government. Most of the cases are people linked to the mafia, many scandals, many investigations, even from the Italian or international prosecutor offices that show the links between ministers and the mafia and the international mafia. So the socialist party, it's not a matter of ideological question. Is it a social democratic or is it democratic left or is it socialist or is it neoliberal as all the neoliberal policies that have been implementing so far, but it's a matter of are they an organized organization or are they a political party?

On the other hand, Adirama is not ashamed to say that in Albania there are no trade unions, so he invites foreign investors to come to Albania because there are no trade unions. Adirama pretends he is socialist, but he has implemented the most austerity, repressive policies that even compared to his other, to the former prime ministers who have been also very authoritarian and right-wing prime minister. Adirama pretends he's an socialist, but he is not ashamed to pretend that these protests are supported by Antifa. First of all, even this is not true. This is bullshit.

It's just his way to appeal to Trump, just in the same way as he is appealing to Trump by selling, not even by selling, by giving away our land. I'm also very sorry to the state that the American, the United States diplomacy has ended up. that even a corrupt prime minister of a small country like Albania has the ability to bribe the president or the stunning law of the president of the United States. Although, so of course, I'm so sorry for speaking like this, but unfortunately this is the state of the American diplomacy, and it shows that Rama is using anti-Fi as a way to appeal even more to President Trump.

This is crap and this is bullshit. There is no link between Antifa. in Europe or U.S. linked to what is happening in Albania. But let's assume for a moment that this is Antifa. Antifa stands for anti-fascist. And of course that our protests are anti-fascists. We are not the only fascist thing happening is the repression from the police and from the government, which is threatening teachers that they are going to be dismissed for supporting students,

which is threatening parents that they are not going to see their kids with a repress. It's putting pressure on journalists who have been, some of them have even been hit with rubber bullets and journalists being dismissed and pressured if they speak up the truth and they are in the protest. This is fascism. Anti-anti-fascism is actually fascism. And unfortunately, this is what is happening right now. Borra, we want to thank you so much. We want to thank you so much for being with us, Borah Memma,

long-time labor organizer, researcher, and activist. Also founding member of the left political party, Levisia Basque, coming up, Naomi Klein and Astor Taylor. Co-authors of the new book, End Times Fascism and the Fight for the Living World. Stay with us. Machine. In the ocean. Machine. In the ice.

On my table. Machine. In the cradle. Machine. On my fingers. Machine. In my holes. Machine.

Making meat machine, in the ocean machine, in the ice machine, on my table machine, in the cradle machine, on my fingers machine, in my holes machine, making wheat machine, making meat ocean machines, in the ice machines, on my table machines, in the concrete machines, in my machines, making wheat machines, making purpose machines, in the goals machines. Machines in the closed machines. The feel of machines. Machines by Reverend Billy and the Stop Shopping Choir. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace Report.

I'm Amy Goodman in Los Angeles with Anjali Comet in New York. Leading critics of the AI industry gathered in New York Monday for the People's AI Assembly. New York mayors are on Monday. Donnie spoke about his recent decision to end a one-year moratorium on students using artificial intelligence in public, elementary, and middle schools. There's a creep that comes with this, and there's an intent to overwhelm that leaves people feeling as if there is simply no option anymore. And when we put in place this moratorium, it was not to prevent.

future use as if AI wasn't already being, AI was being used in schools. This was a moratorium on things that were already being used in schools in the absence of a comprehensive platform. And I think this is the other part of we're seeing such a reckless adoption of technology without any kind of a reckoning with the limitations of that technology. We're seeing reports of our military killing Iranian schoolchildren and then a Pentagon investigation making it clear that an over-reliance on AI was part of the killing of more than 100 schoolchildren. This is the same technology that we're talking about, but there is this desire to speak about it as if it is infallible, as if it cannot be questioned, as if the only people who could regulate it are the

ones who are currently developing it. That was New York mayor, Zerun Mammu Dhani, speaking about his recent decision to enact a one-year moratorium on students using artificial intelligence in public elementary and middle schools. He also talked about New York State's moratorium on new large data centers. That was New York Governor Kathy Hochle's decision to pause the permitting for those data. centers. One of the first things that's critically important is to talk about what are all of the ramifications of AI as a technology. And when we're talking about data centers, the environmental impacts that come with this. I think that's one of the things that I really have appreciated from

our governor is the implementation of a moratorium on data center construction across the state of New York. That is critically important. And in a country that is so unbelievably polarized to see data centers is one of the few things that cuts across party lines, where you see Republicans and Democrats who do not want to see these kinds of things being constructed in their communities. And to me, that is also something that should be inspiring and that it reminds us that the things that are causing people to be concerned about this are not driven by their party affiliation, but simply the very human costs of what comes with this. And that, I think, is both what the future should hold is much more organizing in opposition to what these effects are. And I think that a lot of people in this room have been leading a lot of that.

And then I think at the city level, the question is not just what we can do as a city in terms of our own policies, but also what we can do in the face of a complete abdication of a federal role. Other speakers at the People's AI Assembly included Lena Khan, the former commissioner of the Federal Trade Commission. I think what we've seen, especially through the Web 2.0 era, when we saw the rise of major networking firms, the rise of major social, the rise of big search engines, is that these firms really used a philosophy of, you know, move fast and break things, and oftentimes assumes that the existing laws, the existing rules, didn't apply to them. And so these are individuals that have become used to a certain level of impunity, elite impunity that I think, you know, we've talked about

in the past as being a broader cultural social phenomena that results when we're not holding the rich and the powerful to the same rules and the same standards that we do to everybody else. I think, you know, there are a lot of magazine profiles and other assessments of, you know, looking at what these individuals are as a personal matter and, you know, their character. I think to me some of that is a little bit less interesting than this basic question of who is deciding in the first instance what trajectory these technologies take. And whenever you have a tiny number of elites getting to call the shots around this potentially transformational technology, that is going to be dangerous even if you have the most benevolent, well-meaning people in the driver's seat. It really comes down to the concentration of power. That was Lena Khan, former commissioner of the Federal Trade Commission,

speaking at the People's AI Assembly, which was organized by the AI Now Institute and More Perfect Union. We're joined now by the award-winning journalist and author Naomi Klein, who also spoke at the People's AI Assembly. She's co-author with Astra Taylor of the new book, End Times Fascism and the Fight for the Living World. Astra Taylor is also with us. Naomi, let's begin with you. You just spoke at this AI assembly in New York, along with Aruy, the great writer from New Delhi, from India, who will be joining us tomorrow.

Talk about, you know, we had you and Aster on when in times fascism was first published. You've now traveled the United States, Canada. You've been in Europe as well. On this issue, of AI, if you can talk about the resistance that's growing and talk about how it's being organized and the response at the top, how the billionaire tech bros who are so supportive of President Trump now, though not always had they been, how they're responding to this resistance. It's great to be back with you, Amy and Anjali. So, I mean, the resistance to AI is taking many forms, and it's really a resistance to oligarch power, which is concentrated in the hands of these tech companies in particular. And people around the world, I mean, just listening to your previous guest and the Albanian

an uprising triggered by this plan for an island resort controlled by billionaires, right? This is the through line of so much of the resistance is an understanding that that entire nation's essential functions are being outsourced to these completely unaccountable companies. And AI is really just the final stage of it. I mean, this is a point that several of us were making at the AI Assembly is that after 50 years of outsourcing and hollowing out of public functions of the state, the very last stage is the outsourcing of thinking, of intelligence itself, right? And so it really is a throughline, whether it is the Pentagon outsourcing targeting to companies like Anthropic and Palantir, or whether it is SpaceX with this extraordinary power to cut off a satellite access to Ukraine in the middle of a war. This is really the final stage.

And so it takes many different forms. In some cases, it's parents organizing to say, I don't want a chatbot to teach my kid, right? But in every case, it is this understanding, finally, that, you know, we've thrown around. these phrases for so many years, corporate power, right? What does it mean for corporations to become more powerful than governments? We are seeing it now because we have these highly ideological corporations that are very open about their alignment with increasingly fascistic regimes, right? So you have this alignment of Musk and Trump, Palantir, you know, increasingly deep inroads into the NHS.

we heard about this when we were in the UK. I'm sure you heard about it too, Amy. People are very concerned what data are these companies collecting as they go deeper and deeper into the most intimate and essential government functions like health care. So, yeah, it looks different everywhere. Sometimes it isn't articulated as being an anti-AI movement, but everywhere it is articulated as being about sovereignty, about control, about the outsourcing of their democracy.

And as we see this upsurge of youth-led protests around the world, really, I mean, Albania, many, many different parts of Europe, India, all rising up. I mean, it's really an example of what both of you talk about in your book of kind of hyrness and being here. And can you talk about that idea, both of you of maybe you first, Naomi, of what is that alternative in this world where we have the fascists, you know, imagining and almost pushing our world towards dystopies? futures, where the future isn't for everyone and the resistance to that being an insistence on staying and working with what we have. Well, I think about the French students, right, who take to the streets after this historic summer of deadly heat, deadly across Europe, but particularly in France, right? Thousands and thousands of excess deaths in France just because of the heat.

But the heat doesn't stop at the end of the summer. It stretches into the fall. and students are coming back into classrooms that are impossible to stay in. They are so hot. Then you have these torrential downpours. The roofs are leaking. And young people are saying, we just want to learn, right? And so the ways in which young people's lives are being mortgaged, right, to the climate crisis,

but then they make the connections very directly. You can't fix the roof in our class or get us an air conditioner because you are spending so much on weapons, drones, autonomous warfare, giving it to these private companies, and just invest in us. We want to go to school. We're here, right? Where we live. We want to stay where we live. I mean, you heard it from your Albanian guest.

We want to stay in Albania, but we can't afford to. We're being forced to migrate because our futures are being mortgaged, right? And so it is such a simple message of these oligarchs, these politicians, they believe paradise is elsewhere and they're billionaire islands in outer space. We want these humble things. We want classes that work. We want teachers who have the ability to teach us

and not chapbots. And so it is extraordinarily unifying, bipartisan, quite beautiful and militant, right? And this is why there is such a drive to paint these movements as something else, something alien, something scary. I think there's a high level of influence. infiltration to try to push them in that direction. But yeah, I think that's a throughline. What do you think, Astra?

Well, I think it connects to the AI issue really directly, too. These are costs of living protests, right? People are saying we need to be able to pay our rent. This is why there's a huge uprising across Spain of tenants and renters who can't afford to live. And these students say, we need investment in our schools. Well, where is the money going? As Naomi said, it's being invested in militarism. But here in the U.S., we have, what the Financial Times reports is going to be a $10 trillion AI buildout between 2025 and 2032. $10 trillion. That's a criminal misuse of resources that can go into making lives better. And much of that is debt financed. There are many circular deals, those are called, and financial shenanigans, you know, creating systemic instability in this buildout.

So it's a waste of resources that also endangers the public because, you know, reporting is now finally saying in the Wall Street Journal, in the Financial Times, that the AI bubble is fraying, that there are signs that this corporate debt is distressed and that this puts all of us at even deeper financial risk. So that is, you know, another problem with oligarchy, and that is, as they always said, a unifying threat across all of these movements. And speaking of oligarchy, I mean, we're just two weeks away from the movement. midterms. And Elon Musk, the trillionaire, has funneled $276 million into Republican groups to boost the GOP. And that's according to reporting in the New York Times. And this is coming at the same time as opposition to data centers is becoming one of the biggest bipartisan issues. I mean, even in Republican states, can you talk a little bit more about this conundrum, how people are rising up against data centers, Republican and Democratic voters, but you also have this

moment where Elon Musk is pouring in so much money to back the GOP. Yes, Elon Musk is spending an inordinate amount of money, and he has the money to do it, and he's done it before. He spent $300 million to like Donald Trump. But there's also many tech oligarchs who are investing in democratic races as well, and hedging their bets. They understand that there might be a democratic sweep in the midterms, and they want to rebrand themselves as, you know, sensible centrist. So they are investing across the board. And, you know, they get, That speaks the Albanian protesters who said, you know, both parties have a problem here.

So I think on the data center resistance, I mean, what's important to note is just how truly grassroots it is, right? People in the tech sector like to say that it's funded by China or somehow and not an authentic movement. But it really is, you know, people coming together across party lines around basic things. We don't want a data center that pollutes, that poisons the air and water, that takes our job. right, that fills the internet with slop. That's an incredibly unifying thing. And, you know, I think part of how you combat the spending of somebody like Elon Musk, if you are a Democrat, is to speak directly to those concerns, have a strong position that says,

yes, we are for humans and meeting human needs. We're not on the sides of the robots and the machines. And that's what we saw at this AI People's Assembly. I mean, Mayor Mamdani talked about this one-year moratorium in elementary. middle schools and middle schools. What the audience was cheering was, we want that for high schools, too. We want the moratorium to go all the way. We want it for more than a year, right? We don't want this stuff. And I think that's where the public's at. The public is saying this isn't inevitable, this technology isn't necessarily transformative in a good way, and let's stop. We want funding

for schools and funding for libraries. People are really making the connections that when you systematically underfund the public sphere, which is where we are in the story of neoliberal capitalism, after 50 years of disinvestment, then it becomes more appealing to say, okay, well, maybe chatbots can teach kids because the teachers are underpaid, crowded classrooms, overwhelmed, not enough supports for high-needs kids, and it's only then that you can propose something as absurd as this idea that maybe it would be good if a machine replaced the teacher, right? But if you have well-funded schools, well-funded libraries,

it's a lot harder to make that argument. Well-funded hospitals, then you're not going to be. want a robot doctor, right, or a robot therapist. And so that public investment is insurance also against the encroachment of this dehumanizing technology. And we've, Astor and I've really been focused on preparing for when the bubble burst, because that's when we have to be ready with big demands. Amy? I want to ask about the elections, both in this country and in, for example, Brazil. In Sao Paulo, protesters rallied outside the corporate office.

of Meta Monday, accusing the social media giant of electoral interference ahead of Sunday's runoff election between Lula, President Luis Anasio Lula de Silva, and the far-right candidate, Flavio Bolsonaro. The protest came as Brazil's electoral court gave META 24 hours to prove that it guarantees equal treatment for the campaigns of the two candidates, as reported. required by law. Now, this follows widespread allegations that Mehta's Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp platforms are reducing the reach of Lula's posts and boosting those of Bolsonaro and his supporters. Among those protesting Monday was Daniela Silva, a former meta worker who once led

efforts to shape Brazilian laws in Mehta's favor. I left MEDA in early 2025, a very important event to place at the company at that time, because Mark Zuckerberg announced that he would roll back several of the company's integrity policies. He also declared that he would align himself with the Donald Trump administration, which was about to take office, to ensure that countries like Brazil and other Latin American countries would stop regulating its technologies, moving in a direction that went against the company's economic interests. And for me, this kind of intervention crossed a very important, at the country. line. And just a reminder when we're talking about the power of these corporations, again, META does

own Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp. And in the United States, just this past Saturday, organizers sought to make Saturday the No Kings rally the largest in U.S. history. But at the same time, the social media giant meta has apologized after the No. King's Coalition's Instagram account was shut down for a number of hours during Saturday's protests. I want to ask Naomi Klein about this power as we talk about the midterms here. And of course, the midterms here affect people all over the world, especially if there's a total shift of Republicans, of Democrats controlling both the Senate and the House to what's happening in Brazil, the power of these social media giants. Absolutely, Amy. And you know, I have to say,

this is why Astra and I chose to use the word fascism when we described this system, which we've received some pushback for, but I think the people, like, the people understand why we did so. it is a hallmark of fascism to have this extreme integration between large, like, dominant monopolistic corporate players and the state. Right. So these are ideological companies in a lot of cases, right? If we're talking about Palantir, if we're talking about SpaceX, like we don't know who is driving the cutting off of a satellite's to Ukraine. And there's a debate about this, right? I mean, is it the Trump administration or is it just Elon Musk? They're pointing fingers at each other. In the case, in the case,

case of Facebook and meta, it's more likely that they're just following what the Trump administration wants. They've been very clear that they want Bolsonaro to be reelected. He will immediately free his father. This is really about protecting elite impunity. They do not like the fact that J.R. Bolsonaro is in jail and is one of the few of these figures who has faced consequences for actively trying to undermine an election and leading an insurrection. So that's why. the first thing that his son will do if he is reelected. So we don't know, but what we do know is this is very integrated, and this is what happens when you have this level of media integration.

And we're just seeing the results. And just for Brazil, it's important to remember that Facebook's WhatsApp played an absolutely central role in electing J.R. Bolsonaro in the first place. that platform was flooded with misinformation lies that helped elect Bolsonaro when he was way behind in the Bulls the first time. Then there was this era of contrition during the Biden years. Oh, no, no, no, we're putting up all these guardrails. Then Trump is reelected. The mask is off.

We have better technology to spread deep fakes than the number of deep fakes that Bolsonaro's campaign has been flooding social media with their just, you know, I just saw something yesterday where they took out an image of a man on the float with him and put in like a hot woman in a bikini because they thought it looked better, and then held her up as a paragon for what femininity should be. A fake woman doesn't exist, right? It's just so ludicrous. So the ability to spread misinformation has increased exponentially thanks to AI, and there's absolutely no regulations,

and this is what is in store for the U.S. you know, midterms and presidential. So, you know, this is why Aston are very clear. Like, it's not just about changing the people at the top. This is systemic. And the Democrats, I mean, have to look at themselves if they do win this thing. Yeah. You know, you mentioned being prepared when the AI bubble bursts.

And I wanted to ask you, Astra, if you can talk a little bit more about this AI bubble. I mean, we're seeing headlines about, you know, $8 trillion. being invested into data centers across the country, and these companies taking out massive amounts of debt. And the latest headline from the Financial Times is AI debt worries spark surge and default insurance trading. Why has AI-length debt rocketed this year? And what does this mean?

Yeah. The build-out is so intense, so frenetic, and so redundant, right? Each company is building out its own data centers in the hopes that it will win everything. And so companies, which we're sitting on mountains of capital, are now borrowing. And then that debt is being sold into pension funds, retirement funds, right? So it's spreading throughout the economy. The risk is spreading.

The risk is spreading throughout the economy. And you just read that Financial Times headline, which essentially it mentions credit default swaps. Now, anyone who lived through the 2008 crisis kind of has PTSD at that phrase. Those are, you know, sales of credit default swaps are soaring. and they're soaring because the risk is intensifying. So it's a kind of insurance against default. But it's just a sign that financial markets are getting worried. So, you know, I think we can learn lessons from past financial crises.

So 2008, you know, and the problem was that the bankers who caused the crisis were not held accountable. They benefited from that elite impunity that we're talking about and that Lena Khan was mentioning, right? So the call it Occupy Wall Street was banks got bailed out. We got sold out, and many people lost their homes. Black and brown families lost half of their collective wealth in this country. It was wiped out. But something else different happened during COVID. When the COVID crisis happened and there was a shock to the economy,

a whole bunch of federal money went out and did buy a corporate debt from big corporations and helped sort of Wall Street. But we also popped up a social safety net, a welfare state, overnight, which is a reminder that we can do. that with federal money as well. We don't just have to bail out the banks or the bad actors, right? So there's a big lesson there. The last lesson I think we should learn from is right before the 2024 election, Silicon Valley Bank and some other crypto-associated banks got a bailout. And they did not need to be bailed out, right? They were not economically critical banking infrastructure.

And then the people who got that bailout, many of them, so figures like David Sacks, who is Donald Trump's Cryptozar, then went in join the Trump administration. So I think there's some lessons. The lesson from 2008 is there should be accountability for the people who caused the crisis. We cannot let them off the hook. The lesson from the COVID pandemic is we can help people. We need a people first bailout. We need to be big and visionary. Naomi and I think we need to use this moment just like during the Great Depression and the New York.

deal error to demand a real renovation, transformation of our public services. The lesson from the Silicon Valley Bank incident is let some things fall. Now, we don't want the dominoes to fall throughout the whole economy, but some entities do not deserve to be bailed out. We should talk about whether we actually need companies like Open AI. Do we need anthropics? When they are ultimately, when the promise of the tech they are building is, we're going to take all the jobs and take all the money and, you know, replace human beings with robots. Maybe those companies don't actually deserve to be saved. And this as Anthropic and Open AI are approaching massive IPOs. Yes, and losing, but approaching massive IPOs while also telling us that their revenue projections

are completely, you know, absurd. Like, we don't think they should be allowed to IPO, just straight up there. And, you know, they're also saying they might wipe out humanity. You know, this should preclude your right to sell shares in a company. The solution to that is not to give everybody a share. I want to ask you as we wrap up, I'm here with you joining you from Los Angeles. Naomi, let's talk for one minute about the ballot initiative, Prop 40. California's proposed billionaire tax. If passed, it would impose a one-time 5% tax on the wealth of the states. More than 200 billionaires. Supporters say the wealth tax could raise up to $100 billion with about 90% going toward health care, helping some 3 million Californians from losing coverage as a result of sweeping federal health care cuts.

And, of course, the billionaires have pouring money into the opposition. Google founder, Sergey Brin, has poured over $100 million into opposing Prop 40. your final response on this? Well, we really think that this crystallizes the battle lines of, you know, we call these billionaires, traders to creation, traders to humanity, because they are so willing to abandon it all, you know, whether it's abandoning Earth or abandoning the state of California. I mean, these Google executives who are so wealthy have already moved their primary residences out of California and their little temper tantrums of having to pay a one-time, five percent tax

to defray the cuts that they supported from the Trump administrations. So, you know, and then these are the same companies who are saying, don't worry, if we wipe out your jobs, we'll take care of you. So people in California want to take care of each other, want to stay, and the billionaire class wants to leave. But Democrats like Newsom are also part of the huge problem. There's a war within the Democratic Party that has tremendously high stakes. We're going to have to leave it there.

Naomi Kleinaster Taylor, co-authors of end times fascism and the fight for the living world. A very happy birthday today to Robbie Karen. That does it for our show. Still a story please is out on digital platforms anywhere you like to watch movies. I'm Amy Goodman with Anjali Comment.