DeProgram with John Kiriakou and Ted Rall - Breaking ICE / Interview with Sonali Kolhatkar | DeProgram with Ted Rall and Jamarl Thomas

Episode Date: September 9, 2026

In this episode of DeProgram, Ted Rall and Jamarl Thomas sit down with journalist Sonali Kolhatkar to discuss her new book Breaking ICE: Community Defense against State Terror and MAGA Fascism.The conversation covers the on-the-ground reality of intensified ICE operations, workplace raids, surveillance, and detention conditions, then shifts to the organized pushback she documents from Maine to California.Kolhatkar, an award-winning multimedia journalist based in Pasadena, hosts the nationally syndicated program Rising Up With Sonali. Born in the UAE to Indian parents, she previously worked as an astrophysicist before moving into broadcast journalism in 2002. Breaking ICE collects her interviews with organizers, lawyers, labor leaders, artists, and scholars. The book traces both the human cost of enforcement and the tactics communities are using to protect neighbors, document abuses, and challenge the broader policy direction. Kolhatkar places particular emphasis on Los Angeles as a testing ground and a site of resistance.Join us for a discussion about U.S. citizens mistakenly detained, linking immigration policy to earlier U.S. interventions in Latin America, and abolitionist frameworks applied to ICE—while arguing that the current moment will shape whether the country moves toward a more open multiracial democracy or a more militarized enforcement state.The episode includes listener questions.MERCHANDISE: DeProgram.MySpreadShop.comLIVE ON YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/@DeProgramShowLIVE ON RUMBLE: https://rumble.com/c/DeProgramShowhttps://x.com/tedrallhttps://x.com/JamarlThomas#tedrall #jamarlthomas #news #politics

Hello, you are watching or listening to Deep Program with Ted Raul and Jamarle Thomas. It's Wednesday, and we do a Monday, Wednesday, Friday, 12 noon, Q&A show. And so that is what this is and that's what you're watching. Thank you so much for joining us. Regular show is 9 a.m. to 10 a.m. Eastern Monday through Friday, like I said, also Monday, Wednesday, Friday, 12 noon for this. And we are very pleased to be joined by some... Let's put her in here.

Sonali Kohatkar, I hope I'm pronouncing your name correctly. She's the author of a new book called Breaking Ice, which is that out now? In just a few days. Okay, so pre-order. Pre-orders help drive sales, as I know a little bit about. So pre-order on ideally from a good independent bookstore near you. If you can't do that from a bad Brooks and Mortar bookstore near you, if there's no independent one near you.

But these days, there's fewer excuses for that. And, of course, online if you're really desperate and you don't mind enriching Jeff Bezos. Okay, so Sinali wrote a book about, here let me bring it. Let me introduce you first of all. So Sanali is an award-winning multimedia journalist based in Pasadena, California.

Hosts the nationally syndicated program Rising Up with Sonali, born in the United Emirates to Indian parents. She previously worked as an astrophysicist before moving into broadcast journalism in 2002. Upwardly Mobile. Breaking Ice collects her interviews with organizers, lawyers, labor leaders, artists, and scholars. The book traces both the human cost of enforcement

and the tactics that communities are using to protect their neighbors, document ICE abuses, and challenge the broader policy direction, She places particular emphasis on Los Angeles as a testing ground and a site of resistance. So please put in your questions in the live chat. If you are watching live 12 noon Eastern time on Wednesday, either on Rumble or on YouTube, and we'll have a good civilized and civil discussion about U.S. citizens being mistakenly detained. We're going to talk about the link between immigration policy to American foreign policy.

see in Latin America and all sorts of other stuff. So it's just all about ice and how communities are resisting ice and why. And so, Jamarland, we have a, we alternate questions. So, Jamarral, are you okay if I go first? Of course. Yeah. Cool, cool. All right. So, totally leaked. So my, so my big question here is, we'll start, let's start meta, right? So the meta question is there's a lot of people, even progressive. who are, I think, kind of they're worried about the state of workers in the United States and they view immigration as a way that the ruling classes dilute salaries and make it, and basically are leveraged in order to drive down wages and benefits in this country.

And so Donald Trump got a bunch of those voters, even disenfranchised people, who previously didn't vote back in 2016. And I think people, you know, they, a lot of people who are desperate in terms of working class people, you know, they don't personally resent immigrants, but they resent, but they feel that the policy like H-1B visa programs and so on have been used to, you know, have been used to dilute and attack the rights of American workers. And so to those people, I mean, I know, I mean, our producer, Robbie, is one of them. I know a lot of people who feel that they would prefer a more protectionist and less immigration into the United States policies, but nevertheless are disgusted with what ICE does and the way that they do it.

So they're not, you know, but basically, how do you address the issue, basically those people who think, well, it's okay to, make, isn't it, if you, if you're here illegally, isn't it okay to throw you out? I mean, you're not here legally, right? So, and maybe they break, you know, like you break a few eggs to make an omelet. So how, I mean, how do you address? I think, I think that the billionaire class has done a really great job at convincing us that immigrants are the problem. When so much of our collective resource and so many of our collective resources are sucked up into, you know, tax, breaks for billionaires. It's really convenient to have this group of people that we can label the other to distract us from the fact that we are all being fleeced, right? And so Donald Trump,

who is a master communicator, did a fantastic job of convincing us that immigrants were the problem. And now what people are realizing is that no matter how many people, ICE locks up, their lot isn't getting better. In fact, things are getting worse. So what has happened is agricultural fields are fallow Trump supporters who were hoping that U.S. citizens would come and take the jobs that immigrants were doing are finding that nobody is taking those jobs. Construction companies instead of hiring U.S. workers are shutting down operations and ruining the economy altogether. You know, one good case and point that I pointed out in my book was the raid on the Hyundai plant in Georgia, where immigrant workers were brought in to set up a plant.

that was going to create US jobs. And all of those people, by the way, had papers. And I think we have to remind ourselves over and over again. Borders are imaginary, people are real. And the idea that you can create artificial distinctions between us and those others is a very slippery slope that very quickly shows that we are going to slip into that definite

of other unless you are a cisgender white male who is a voter in Trump's America and backs the MAGA agenda. And even then, somebody you love is very quickly going to be seen as the other. So people who are, you know, we've tried to create this idea of a homeland to decide everybody on this side of the border belongs, everybody on that side doesn't belong. what by virtue of accidents of birth and then okay it's people who are with criminal backgrounds oh no no it's people who overstayed their visas oh no it's people who did what ice said they should do and showed up to their court dates we're going to arrest them oh wait a minute it's people who were here legally under tPS or daca or whatever and now there's protections have been stripped away and now suddenly they're

quote unquote illegal when they were legal literally you know by stroke of a pen a few months ago and oh it's just a brown person who is a U.S. citizen who happens to be brown, who's been deported. You cannot draw that line clearly. And when you throw other people under the bus, eventually you're going to be the one thrown under the bus too. And I think people are finding that out. And it's, you know, they're upset about it. And no wonder. So, yeah, I think that this is something that we have to keep reminding ourselves.

Billioners are the problem, not immigrants. Borders are imaginary. People are real. Ted, can I... Go ahead. Okay, so look, ICE are goons and thugs. And what they do is not necessarily a benefit for this particular country. I want to get that out first, because what I'm going to say is going to sound contradictory to what I just said.

It sounds like, and correct me from wrong, let's be honest, countries are legal entities, meaning they're legal fictions. That's true. But any country that is going to be, even if it's illegal fiction, has borders. Shouldn't those borders be honored? And there is a distinction between me being born in Richmond, Virginia, at 605 a.m. versus someone born in, I don't know, El Salvador. I was born here. They were born there.

And you're right, they're a human being. So I hate to term illegal in all of these other ways that we used to describe it. But there is a difference. I'm not an El Salvadorian citizen anymore than the El Salvadorian citizen is an American. certainly there's a distinction between no things. For example, when they needed to kick me out of Cambodia, they kicked me out of Cambodia. Right? It's like, wait a minute, I'm an American, I'm a human being.

That didn't matter. Did they brutalize you? Did they deportes a third country, right? So none of that happened to you, right? What we, I think by trying to distinguish ourselves from where we were born here, therefore we belong, we undercut the fact that notions of belonging have been defined by rulers, by the elites, you know, by people who've decided, well, it's okay that Melania, Trump came here under a very, you know, loose definition of, you know, this brainy, you know,

visa for brainy people because she belongs. And then it's okay that Elon Musk is an immigrant, but these, and when we start doing that, and what we're realizing now, more and more is that these notions of who belongs and who doesn't is actually a racial question. It's not as much in question of immigration as it is a racial question. So because the Trump administration continues to move the goalposts, one day you belong because you did everything you were told to do because you were told, get in line and follow the rules. And tomorrow they are going to change the rules. And, you know, for example, what about there are people who were Afghans who help, helped the U.S. during its 20-plus year-long war, who were promised safety from the Taliban,

safety from the fundamentalists if they helped the U.S. and they were promised refuge in the United States. All of those promises have been broken. We can agree with me on that way in which immigrants are deceiving us. What about the way in which we're deceiving immigrants? And it turns out that we need immigrants more than immigrants need us. We have a shortage of home health care workers who are immigrant heavy. We have a shortage of physicians. A disproportionate number of physicians are from immigrant backgrounds. We have shortages of so many kinds of workers. And the answer to that isn't, oh, let's let's let's treat people humanely and let's take the money out of ice and invest it into medical care and free college education for Americans. Right? I think they could

become trained to go to medical school, right? Exactly. And so to pour our resource and say, let's kick all these illegals out, it is going to bite us in the ass. And it already is. Okay. Now let's get down to, all right, let's get down to ICE, right? So first of all, again, and I guess another, forgive me for another meta question. I think one of the things that is really starting to dawn on a lot of people, is that who might have been in favor of deportations, albeit not brutal ones, is that ICE may seem to be a stalking horse for creeping fascism. That, you know, it's, okay, like, it was presented as we need this armed force to do, to carry out deportation. Do we really need an armed force to go pick up unarmed people

who are not threatening anyone? Maybe not. But I think that ICE is killing more Americans and more people, human beings, then quote unquote, illegals are killing Americans. If you look at how many people are killed by immigrants, it's actually much, much fewer than the number of people that ICE kills. So, I mean, but so here you have these heavily armed, unidentified goons. I'm very surprised that the unidentified aspect of this hasn't resonated more with the public. I mean, I don't personally, if armed men don't identify themselves, driving around in an unmarked car with covered up license plates or changed out license plates who don't have ID, they have no way of proving to me that they're ice, I don't think it's unreasonable for me to assume I'm about to be kidnapped by random thugs.

And in fact, there have been cases of impersonation of ICE, right? and that people have been victimized, attacked, raped by fake ICE goons. I mean, how serious? I mean, by next year, according to, you know, ICE is poised to become the biggest military armed force in the United States. More so, it'll be bigger than the National Guard. It'll be bigger than any big city police department, even heavily militarized ones, like the LAPD. it will be, I mean, basically Trump will have his own, has his own private army that could be used just as easily against, you know, Americans protesting election results or, you know, anything else as going after immigrants.

I mean, is this one of those knee-muller kind of moments where it's like, well, first they came for the migrants and then they came for me? It absolutely is. It's already happening, right? Like right now, ISIS has changed its tactics. Ice went from having these, you know, guns blazing Hollywood-style invasions of cities under Christine Nome to a very quiet, insidious. We're going to pick off immigrants one at a time under Mark Wayne Mullen. And why and how are they doing that? First of all, they're making it less obvious and less theatrical because the theatrical aspect attracted a lot of mobilized. They helped mobilize community defense, which is what I write about in the book that you're interviewing me about.

And then the change in tactics was to try to prevent that kind of mobilization from happening. Well, how are they finding immigrants to deport and detain? It turns out in the past year, we've had a surveillance network that is spread throughout the country under the guise of security and safety. The most visible company is flock, but there's other companies as well. They are automatic license plate readers that gather data, analyze them in using AI, which is why they need giant detention centers, sorry, data centers. And then they identify people, find out where they are, find out their habits, and quietly pick them up. Well, the error rate is huge on them.

ICE agents have shown up. Police have shown up randomly to people's homes, accused them of crimes they didn't commit. including U.S. citizens, including white people, and cutted them off, traumatized them before realizing they made a mistake. This is happening all across the country. And so this is what we have allowed to happen to our country under the guise of, let's kick out all the illegals. And you're right, this is the kind of surveillance that is not going to end well. And there's a huge public outrage. You've seen like public opinion switch from 40% support of, or 40% of people against flock cameras to rather data centers to 75%.

And you have companies like flock making a lot of money. And eventually the billionaire dystopia that they're promising us is that we're all going to be living between detention centers and data centers and jobless. and Elon Musk is going to be laughing all the way to the bank. Is this what we want? I agree with your base of premise, just to tell you. And I think you're right, ICE is a problem. The surveillance that the United States is effectively allowed is a problem.

I mean, they always talk about China. Oh, my God, China is filming everyone. It's like, dude, your government is doing the same. Right? It's like that's not something that's distinct there. I want to get into a certain, I want to get into basically how can communities defend themselves? But I am curious.

I guess I'm trying to get a sense of your starting point. Do you believe that countries have borders? Or do you believe that countries should have borders? I mean, I believe that countries are borders in as much as I believe that corporations are real, right? These are all fictitious institutions that we create to create some kind of order in society. That we set the rules of those institutions, right? So if we get to set the rules for what, say, corporations can and can't do, we get the rules, we get to decide the rules, especially if we claim to live in a democracy of what countries can and can't do. So we can decide our country should treat human beings with more dignity than we treat corporations or then we treat.

Just to be clear, everyone here agrees with that premise. Like basically, you shouldn't treat people like dirt. In many respects, we're destroying the countries and they're coming here and all of a sudden we're blaming them from coming here. They're not wrong. doing so that's that's not in contention everybody here agrees on that point i mean the the reason i'm like national borders are not set in stone throughout history borders have been malleable um conflicts have changed borders so there's no such thing as like this is exactly how to so when i say borders are imaginary i mean that there are lines drawn on a map and and just because

one person is born on this side of a border versus that side doesn't mean we have more rights than somebody else born on that side that is what i'm trying to say it's what i'm trying to get at If I live in Mexico versus living in America, you may say it's fictitious, but all countries do it. Yes, sure. And that border is a legal distinction, meaning from the standpoint of law between, God, I can't believe, I feel like I'm arguing right on this. The borders are the legal distinction between, okay, what is in this country? Everything has a border. Your body has a border, right?

Yes. There's a border that keeps out water, keeps out bugs and keeps everything else. I'm saying the border thing, I agree with you. It's aligned on the map. But it does have legal implications that the country. decides upon it again as you pointed out but the country seems to decide upon this idea of well we want the border to be here and everything outside of that border is something else we should obviously treat people like human beings but i'm trying to i guess nail down the fact that the border is there

for a reason if i was born in mexico i would have rights and everything else under the mexican law if i'm american traveling there i don't have those rights because i'm not we have laws in place in this country about immigration that we are being completely that that we are very violating over and over again. I'll give you one example. In the mid-2000s, George W. Bush signed into law an anti-trafficking bill that had money set aside by a unanimous decision of Congress that immigrant children, children seeking asylum, children who might be the victims of trafficking, should have public defenders. They should be legally represented in court, right? That is a law that was established by Congress, a law of this country. What did Trump do? He just,

said, no, we're not going to do that. I don't care that Congress put this money for it to defend young children. And so DHS has just stripped all of the money that we have decided as a country to give little children as young as one year old to defend themselves in court. Okay, they've taken the money away, they've given them to their favorite organizations, some of which are involved and implicated in trafficking themselves. And so what I'm saying is that, you can decide what the laws are and you can decide whether they should be respected or not. And currently, even our laws are not being followed. Agreed.

Totally. All right. So let's talk about resistance. There's, in my view, three basic categories of people who resist or protest government actions. There's people who are routine, like activists who are constant. They do it all the time. This is like a big part of their lives. There's people who are sort of in between who might, for one cause or another, get involved to a lesser extent.

And then there's the broad, the masses that will, when there's a massive tumult, like to rear square, where just, you know, the entire population surges out and joins a confrontation. against government oppression. We, in this country, we barely, even with everything that Trump is doing, the war against Iran, which is very unpopular, nevertheless, what do we have? We have a no-kings rally scheduled every four months on a convenient weekend day, weather-allowing. And, you know, we have ice running roughshod, shooting down people, including U.S. citizens in American cities.

And we, in Minneapolis and in L.A., we saw that sort of class A and class B of protester. But we haven't seen mass confrontation, and we certainly haven't seen sustained protests. This is a broader question about protest. But, I mean, at this point, these goons are scooping up our friends, our neighbors, are people whose businesses we patronize. No one watching this or listening to me right now does not interact with, in a friendly, equitable manner with undocumented workers at least maybe every day,

in many cases more often. How is it, why do you, how do you, I mean, what are we lacking here to get people? why are we seeing so little? The activism that you described in your book and the people you interviewed are deeply committed and thoughtful and sustained, but they're doing this in very, very small numbers

considering the outrageousness of the government actions that are being confronted. Well, it depends on where you go and when. So if you look at Minneapolis, right, it was not small numbers. The number of ICE agents that was sent into Minneapolis was so deeply disres. proportionate to the number of residents that live there. And this is not a very immigrant

rich city, by the way. It is. There's lots of immigrants, but it's still, they're a very small minority. And the entire city rose up, the Twin Cities. They rose up. And the, the feel, the anger, the rage, the simmering rage still is there. Why? Was it because it, ice was so anti, was so not Minnesota nice? I mean. I mean, that's a large part, right? So even people, in fact, I interviewed for one of the people I interviewed in my book, Shannon Gibney, wrote a piece in a local newspaper about how she's not playing Minnesota nice with ice. And they managed to piss off the nicest people.

And people pride themselves on being nice in this country. The rage is so widespread and it's still there. So I was recently in Chicago for my book launch, which was also another epicenter of the ICE raids. And everywhere you go in the city, you see storefronts that have signs welcoming immigrants being against ICE, random places you wouldn't even expect in very mainstream areas. So ice united a lot of these folks. And so even if the numbers of people actually showed up at nights to confront ice agents may have been small, they were reflecting a very wide public opinion. I'm in L.A. I was in downtown LA in last June and downtown LA was shut down. It was incredible how angry people were and people

from all walks of life. And the attitude was you thought you could come into our deeply integrated mixed immigration status city and separate us and tear us apart. You thought that you could terrorize the lady selling tamales on the corner who has never hurt anybody who has only contributed to the richness of my community and my neighborhood, who helps me feel safe, and you're going to ruin our peace using our tax dollars? Uh-uh. And so that was just this, there was a huge outpouring.

And this is why, by the way, in large part, I believe where Christine Nome was fired. So I think now our challenge is going to be much bigger. This new chapter where ICE is deporting more people rounding up and deporting more people. And as they increase their drag net, there are more and more mistakes, quote-unquote, being made. And I was saying there's not that many immigrants in Minnesota.

Actually, there's not that many immigrants in the United States who are undocumented. Undocumented population is estimated at something like 4% of the population. 4% of the population. We are taking money out of food stamps, out of claiming there's no money for Medicare for all, taking money out of Medicaid to pour into this police system to police four percent of the population, that has always been a lie. It's not really to police this four percent of the population.

It is to enforce the MAGA agenda. It is to enforce the whitewashing of this nation. It is to keep us in check. It is to keep us distracted by deciding who belongs and who does and so that we all are wondering, looking at our neighbors, rather than looking up at Elon Musk, right? That is the point. So we have to figure out how to respond. True. Agreed. I find that I'm always agreeing with everything you say. But I guess take an issue with other parts. So the 4%, 4%, you're right, but it's 4% of 320 million people. For that's, I mean, blacks only make up like 12% of the country. 4% is like a third of the number of blacks in the country. That's not a significant. That's not an insignificant number.

I guess there's that. Two, you're absolutely right. Anybody who's been to the hospital knows to themselves that many of the nurses are from somewhere else. We don't have enough nurses, doctors, as you point out, all of these other jobs, in and of itself in the current way that America is structured to take care of those things. And we will suffer as a result if these people are effectively taken away. Do you make a distinction? I'm curious between, I see, ICE is just so atrocious in and of itself. Let's say it wasn't ICE. Let's say it was another organization that. just wasn't full of lunatics and goons and people who hate other people. Would you take an issue with the distinction between somebody who committed a crime versus not?

Because I can hear right-wingers screaming at the top of their lungs. We have a criminal justice system, though. We have a criminal justice system, a deeply flawed criminal justice system. I wrote another book about that. But if you're concerned about crime, right? If you're concerned about crime, we have a criminal justice system. So if it's true that ICE is going after people who committed crime, Are you saying that there's a whole bunch of people who are criminal who got away with their crimes? No, these are people who serve prison sentences. Okay?

So they've already paid, quote, unquote, for their crimes, right? These are people who serve prison sentences. And now we're saying, oh, now we've decided that that means that you can't stay in this country. Except, you know, we have lots of double standards, such as having a felon in the White House. So I don't think it's about criminals, right? So it's about immigration is a civil issue. Right. So it has been for the majority of this country's history, although the, you know, immigration is a pendulum, also that goes in and out and up, you know, sideways. And so depending upon what point in the country's history you look at, we treat immigrants very differently. The very same immigrant coming to the country in the same way 30 years ago would have had a very different outcome than today. True. There's no consistency in the policy. You know, it's like you, whenever you meet someone from a who,

who came to the United States from another country. I mean, it's such a hodgepodge, right? I mean, if you came under Biden and you showed up at Eagle Pass, Texas, they give you an app and they wave you in. And then they say five years later, oh, there's been an election. You're no longer legal. We're pulling the rug out from under you. My mom married my dad, no must, no fuss.

I have friends who overstayed their visa, people who had a fake marriage. and, you know, I mean, it's just like, it's actually insane the way that there's no consistency under their own rules. I want to try to answer the question that I think you were trying to ask, which is that we didn't we have some kind of immigration enforcement? First of all, let's make it simple to figure out how, like people say, well, if only immigrants would just get in line and do it legally, right? Why?

How? What legal pathway? They've closed off every avenue. They've made things about once legal, illegal. So how about, first of all, just cleaning up our quote-unquote legal pathways. Let's have a system that people can navigate and understand and then figure out how to go through those pathways to come into the United States. And then if there are pathways that they deliberately avoided,

deliberately decided not to come in. If they came in with nefarious, malicious intent, fine, then let's address that. But the mass majority of people aren't coming in with deliberate nefarious intent. And in fact, if we actually truly cared about crime, we would talk about crime prevention, which the largest correlation between crime and anything else is inequality. Inequality fuels crime.

If we want to talk about immigration and what fuels large numbers of people coming to this country, it's instability in their own countries. And so we can start to. talking about how do we create a world where people didn't feel pressured to leave? How do we create safety for everybody on both sides of the border? And so I think that is a huge part of our challenger. If we cared about large numbers of immigrants coming in and, quote, taking American jobs, we're going about the exact opposite way than we need to leave.

To be clear, I agree with you. Immigration has been used as a stalking horse for a long time for all sorts of reasons, and has been demigal a thousand percent agree. But I think would you agree with me that a country, whether the country harms itself or not, to make a choice to shut immigration down? Meaning a president can come into the country and say, from here on out, no more immigrants,

and people can make the argument, look, you're going to damage America for it. And the president... What do you mean they're shutting immigrants? Shudding immigration down, though? Are you going to stop all travel to this country? Like, how does that even work? Do you stop all travel to this country?

And then do you decide, oh, you can't, if your fiancé is not from here, sorry, doesn't matter that you fell in love with this person that we have decided. Immigration must be shut down. Forget about it. You don't get to marry the person you love. Does it mean ending birthright citizenship, which is what Trump wanted to do? So if somebody happened to be visiting, where do you draw the lines? And when we start to actually look at the details of what it means to stop immigration, it turns out it is a lot more complicated and you end up hurting the very. people that you are claiming to be helping. It is a fool's errand to try to say, let's shut down

immigration in this country. It won't work. But in principle, do you believe a country has a right to do it as a sovereign nation? Everything you say, I agree. So when you say, when you're talking about a democracy, you're talking about the people's will. So are you saying, do the people have the right to decide the rules of their country? And I'm saying, yes, the people absolutely have the right to define the rules of their country. And I'm saying, yes, the people absolutely have the right to define the rules of their country to define the laws of their country. That is what I'm fighting for. And I want a country with more humane laws and maybe other people don't. Yeah, I mean, lots of, lots of countries. I think you're being a bit grueling. I guess the question is. What is a country? A country is its people,

right? Right. What is a couple part? I guess I'm going to make a very, I guess I'm trying to make a very basic point. I agree with everything you're saying. Trump is grotesque. What he is doing is grotesque, even if you go under Biden and Obama. Again, I didn't agree with him. I think it's fine with immigration. I guess my point is I'm fine with immigration. But a country can self-sabotage. Every bit as much as a person can self-sabotage.

A person can commit suicide. There's nothing that would intervene in a person doing so. Yeah, we as humanities are committing suicide right now with climate change. Exactly. And I guess I'm making the point that the United States chose somebody who was radically incompetent and who spent his entire time bashing and and hating immigrants and xenophobic rents all throughout the United States. And they chose that guy. Yeah, and hiring undocumented workers at all of those businesses.

I mean, he's like a grotesque person, right? I guess the question is about sovereignty and whether a country has sovereignty to self-sabotage in your eyes. Because, look, from my point of view, if a country decides, we have to want to live in that country. Do you want to live in a country that has decided to self-sabotage? No. I mean, exactly. in a country that is doing that. What's that?

No, I don't, but I am living in a country. He is literally murdering people. And we don't, and we can't let him. We can't let him sabotage our country. I think we would agree on that, right? Well, okay, so we are, I don't think we are not, I think what I want to, Jamal correct me if, I'm not getting what you're trying to say, but I guess to put a fine point on it,

that what if there was a widespread majority consensus, which there isn't in the United States about we should have restrictive immigration policy. And we just don't want, you know, you can come as a tourist. We do that now. By the way, that's what now is. Right. Deeply restrictive. But, like, yeah, it is deeply restrictive.

But, you know, I mean, many countries have deeply restrictive, you know, immigration policies. I can't just move to China and just like and say, like, hey, you've got lots of room. You've got 1.3 billion people. What's one more? It doesn't have deeply restrictive immigration policies, which is why so many Americans are fleeing there. But, oh, no, those are expatriates, not immigrants. But becoming a Chinese national is hard, right?

Or let's say Japan, very hard. Look at Mexico and Europe, where most Americans who are leaving the country, are emigrating. They're going to Europe. They're going to Mexico because they find that it's actually a better life for them. Mexico is great. Europe is great. Yes, exactly. They're getting free health here.

They're getting social services. They don't have thugs, armed thugs, you know, beating down their door, depending on where, of course, in Mexico. So I have to be clear. Portugal, everybody, all Americans, I mean, the Portuguese people are really upset that so many Americans want to emigrate there. And, you know, so what if those countries started treating Americans, simply looking for a better life or escape?

Well, they could. That could happen. Easily could happen. I mean, and lots of countries have strange rules. Like, I mean, I don't know if this is still true, but in Turkmenistan, 20 years ago, you know, if you wanted to marry a Turkmen national as a foreigner, you had to pay the government $20,000 as a fee in order to marry him or her, usually or her. And that's just like,

you know, I mean, it's like, well, it's their country. They can do, I mean, it was an authoritarian dictatorship, too. But I don't know how the local. I was born in the United States. Arabama. It's a country that has no birthright citizenship, that no matter what you do, you can never become a citizen. There is no free speech. There is a hyper commercial, you know, economy. If you are very wealthy, you can emigrant. It is now betting its economy on cryptocurrency. Sound familiar? This is what Trump wants to go wrong. Or the United States. And I left that country.

I did not want to live in a place where there was no freedom of speech. I did not want to live in a place where there were secret police that were essentially, you know, there was a fear of secret police. We could never, ever say anything remotely negative about the ruling family, even sitting in a cafe, for fear that there were a secret police sitting nearby and could then show up at your house the next day and deport you. Right. That was a country. born and raised in and I fled. I left it. Coming to the United States was for me something that was a

beautiful, powerful thing because I would have the freedoms here that were promised to human beings. Now Trump is seeing the UAE and thinking, I like that. And he is trying to turn. I wrote about this in a separate article. He's trying to, you know, this is for him a model for what the country should be. An underclass of labor, by the way, labor that is so bad. badly treated, that employers take your their passports from them, push them into labor camps, and many of them, my uncle was in a labor camp, lost his foot, was simply, you know, because he had an accident, was simply fired and deported, never had any rights. That is what Trump wants for this country. I don't think that's what we want for this country.

Well, obviously some people did want that for this country, which is why they voted for him a second time, right? Those are the people who think they're billionaires in waiting, and I don't think anything will convince them. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's the problem of, the problem of democracy is that not everyone always makes the right calls. But, but, but I mean, okay, so let me, let's get back, let's get, let's get more towards your book here. So there's a, one thing that I found really unnotable is I want to know, like, what should people who are disgusted by ICE do? You know, right now, like, if there's actually, if I harbor an undocumented worker at my home, I can be prosecuted under federal law. It's no different than, you know, the rules under Nazi-occupied France, where my mom grew up, that, you know, if you were harboring Jews, you not only the Jews, if they got caught, but the entire family could be killed. You can go to prison for five years, federal prison for five years for harboring and illegal, you know, illegal immigrant, migrant, whatever you want to call them.

What are we supposed to do? I mean, I feel like the state has become so militarized, so willing to resort to violence very quickly. They're shooting, unarmed people. They are. I mean, these are, these are fascists. What is an anti-fascist to do? And that's a really, really important question. So first of all, I think it's really important to understand that actually their project

of domination has not been as successful as they would like us to believe. Americans have put up an enormous fight against the ice machine, against the ice raids, against the surveillance, against the detention centers, against the data centers. They have put up a much larger fight than I think the Trump administration was expecting. And every step of the way, the Trump administration has been trying to pivot to meet the moment and then withdrawing and pivoting to meet the moment. So what we don't hear often, which is a large part of why I wrote this book, is the victories that we have won.

Our mainstream media does not like to focus on the ways in which we've won. It's bad news all the time. It's news that leaves you disempowered, leaves you feeling like, like you can do nothing to save yourself because all they really care about is eyeballs on their pages so they can get advertising money. It's not to inform you. It's not to leave you activated and not to leave you thinking, if Minneapolis residents could kick out ice the way they did, maybe our city can do it as well.

So it turns out that we were remarkably successful. For example, in I'm talking about, you know, 2025 through to early part of 2026. What happens next? I don't really know. But in Los Angeles, they poured, ice poured so many agents. so many resources into this community that has a large undocumented population. And they ended up in my interview with Ron Goeches, who was a local community organizer, he pointed out that they ended up like arresting less than a percent of the people that they were trying to arrest. Why? Because the community showed up. People patrolled their

streets. They figured out where ICE agents were staging their operations. They followed their cards. They had bullhorns. They passed out know your rights cards so that people knew exactly what to do when agents came and blatantly lied to them about their warrants and about what their rights were. They used whistles. They used every manner of tactic. And they pivoted.

They documented. They posted on social media. And so to your question, what can we do? I learned this lesson firsthand in early 2025 when I was. a survivor of the Eton Fire. I live very close to the Altadena border, and climate change-fueled fires decimated the community, like literally within two blocks of my house.

And when those fires came, the first thing that my family did was turned to our neighbors, who we are in a text group with, who we have formed close ties with when the pandemic hit. We all became very close. And we turned to one another for information, for resources, for figuring out which hotel to evacuate, what to do. And that same community was activated last year when our neighbors were being targeted.

And so the answer is the rallying cry of the National DeLabor Organizing Network, which is solo el Pueblo, salva al-Pueblo. Only the people can save the people. The government isn't coming to save us right now. And community, embedding ourselves in community, strengthening our ties with our neighbors, our communities, our friends, is what's going to help keep us safe and is going to be the basis of our resistance and is already the basis of our resistance.

That's not a clean, easy answer, but it is the best answer we have over the past year we've seen at work. That's very cool. I was sitting here thinking as you were talking about that, basically, look, I am bad at community stuff. I don't even know who my neighbors are.

And I didn't know who my neighbors were before, but that's a negative trait for me that I kind of recognize in general. That is a positive attribute to be able to have, let's say, ties in the community. in a way when something happens in a community can respond as a community, whether it's ice or fire or disease or anything else.

That's impressive. I'm curious, from the standpoint of successes, were there like mayors, were there local political areas that also added into the assistance? Like, were the, was the resistance purely specific to the community itself? I mean, were there... Some politicians came through, you know, some politicians joined the vigils and the protests. It wasn't required.

What's that? It wasn't required, meaning it's like they were an adjunct. They weren't the main thrusts of the pushback. Yeah, and I think we, you know, have to be really clear. We can't ever, like, rely on politicians to save us, right? Their main goal is, unfortunately, not to serve the people. Their main goal is to get reelected, right? our relationship with politicians needs to be reconfigured.

They serve at our whim, and they do not get to simply come in and decide, you know, from the top down what we should or shouldn't do, especially in such situations. So many politicians did kind of follow the lead. There was only so much they could do, like in L.A. people were saying, why is the LAPD cooperating with ICE? We have agreements where they're not supposed to cooperate with ICE. And the mayor, you know, just kind of like threw up her. hands in the air and said, no, no, they're not cooperating with ICE. They absolutely were. I mean,

they weren't directly saying, here, we're going to arrest people and turn them over to ICE. What they were doing is they were holding protesters back who were trying to nonviolently confront ICE and thereby making it easy for ICE to, you know, carry out their inhumane raids. So there is a big breakdown. And this is why a lot of people were really frustrated and thinking, wow, nobody's coming to save us. We can't rely on our city politicians. We can't rely on the police. We can't rely on the police. We can't rely on these structures of government, including local structures, to save us. We've got to do it ourselves. And this was a huge lesson for a lot of cities. And it was also a really empowering moment when people realized they could band together without city resources and save themselves. And so mutual aid

efforts grew up where people were crowdfunding to help get groceries for the family across the street whose breadwinner had been taken away. And there were kids needed picking up from school. And the mom was too scared to, you know, take them to school because she was. was afraid she would get picked up. So people came to each other's defense in ways that strengthened us as a community and left us stronger and more capable of meeting ice thuggery, Trump's thuggery, and frankly even, you know, local governments abuses if those happen. Sinali, I think, unless you have any more questions, Jamal, I think this is a good place to break.

Fantastic. All right. Thank you so much, Sanali. Much appreciated. Sonali. And I just give out a little bit of information about the book if you don't mind. Please, too. I was going to ask you to do that.

People can pre-order the book through Romans Bookstore, V-R-O-M-A-N-S-Romens bookstore. You can get a signed pre-ordered copy. My work can be found at Rising Up with Sonali.com. I have a subscription-based radio and television program. And, you know, think about what it means when you want your neighbor carted away, but you want distinctions drawn between them and you. Eventually, they'll come for you. Mueller's poem absolutely stands. Thank you so much for having me on. Thank you, Sonali. Take care.

Okay. So that was, that was fun and interesting. I know that there were some frustrated, you know, nativists in the crowd who wanted to mix it up with Sinali and one of whom is right here. So we, you know, we want our guests to come back. Also, I like them to be able to say their piece. But, Robbie, you like them to be honest. Yeah. That's asking for too much. Well, wait, just to be, just because I lied to me. I get to rage on this, right?

Because it feels like you're trying to pin her down and trying to find, like, I mean, I mean, there are real questions. Well, if you ask a person, do you believe in borders? The answer is either yes or no. You can say it's illegal fiction, true. But, you know, their response, their comp, there are. it matters. It's not one of indistinction. And there is a distinction between, hey, I am in Austria and I've overstayed my visa. I don't have the rights that I would have in America because it is a country with a border that is different than my own. That's not a negative thing. I've been deported by foreign countries. Yeah. Yeah. I think the issue is ICE is atrocious. And that's separate from whether or not, like on issues of immigration and borders. Like, for me, these are two separate.

issues. If I'm asking you about the border stuff, it's because, well, I do think countries are borders. I do think borders matter. I do think American workers matter. I do think a president or government can come in and say, we are changing the way we do our immigration system as a direct result of the public responding to it. Like if you were in Germany, for example, or if you were in one of the countries that got a huge surge of immigrants because of Syria, okay, the public responds to that by saying we want harsher immigration policies because we don't like the fact that the government has let this many people in. That's a government with borders responding to an external circumstance. That's normal. That's what countries are supposed to do. I mean, I guess I was trying

to get this nation of, okay, well, what do we agree on in regards to just basic principles of do countries of borders and those type of things? I agree with their main premise. I used to full of goons and thugs and maniacs and need to be somehow resisted. But Robbie, I know you're going to have stronger feelings than I do on this. Yola gave her a complete pass. She was coming, she was coming out here just spree. I didn't give her a pass. The hell you don't.

I'm not. She came out and she said, immigration does not depress wages. That is a bald-faced freaking lie. I didn't hear her say that. I never heard to say that. What I heard her say was she's talking about crime and say immigrants. She said,

she said, I submitted more crime or more murders than immigrants. I don't remember her thing about the job thing. Okay. Okay. Well, rewatch the show again. Because she was, hey, I was listening very clearly, and I was doing everything I could not to come on and just call her on her crap like right then and right there. Check the transcript.

She said that immigration is a net benefit that does unimpact wages. That is a damned lie from the pit of hell itself. By definition, it does. another thing I asked y'all talk to her about on the chat is a lot of these jobs she's talking about the farmers okay fine fair enough

so Americans are doing these jobs yeah because you don't pay them so if you want to get wages up that is true and you both let her pass on this both of you both of the left us here on this panel when she said that bald-faced fucking lie y'all just both just and y'all just let it's fake

right to be fair I wish she said that I for I promised y'all I promise you all I would not come on and put a knife on put a knife on put a knife on I didn't I want to I wanted to like does countries have borders and do countries that meaning can countries control those things is because it was kind of related to that question it's like well you know if we want to meaning if we want to self-harm ourselves and we want to reconstruct the economy where Americans work these particular jobs where Americans are more trained and nurses and everything we can do that we're just

kind of where the question came from like well wait a minute kid countries aren't sovereign countries able to make immigration to choices that may or may not hurt those countries are we sovereign then that directly so fair enough fair enough but that's what i was in my mind listen i get it y'all trying to be nice to her my interest is not being nice my interest is about is about no getting facts this is called deep programs that's deep program okay let's not just sit on our collective butts and spin in circles. She said that Americans would not do these jobs. Correct. Why is that Ms. immigrant? Because we're not paying them to do the freaking job. She's sitting here. Oh, I'm here in America and I'm a media personality with a radio show. Well, good. They flip for you. You could

go back in Dubai where I would deport your ass to if I could. I would send her back today. I feel like this is like I feel like we push the guests or the really is. Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to let me. John glazed her. You didn't push her. What did you all push her? Well, because I wasn't here to have, honestly, her book is about how people resist ICE, right? So, you know, as it is, there was more, enforcing the fucking wall.

You heard her kind of tacitly complain about the fact that she wanted to be talked to talk about her book. As an author, I've had this happen many times where I'm told to come on and talk about my, book, which I want to sell, and I don't get the opportunity to talk about my book. So most of this interview, we didn't even talk about her book. So I was like, we've got to get to her book and talk about that topic. And you haven't read the book. I have. It's not toilet paper.

It's worth reading. But the point is- All right. Well, I only have mine, but you have mine. And again, I think there's the distinction between immigration policy versus ICE. ICE is different. Yes. This is not about resisting immigration policy.

this is or deportations about resisting ice. She was saying that the American government was attacking their communities, their communities. Okay, well, if your committee has millions of people who are here illegally who are depressing American jobs, who are a net drain on the tax base of this country through health care, through education, then I am sorry if you have to go home. This is not an unreasonable ask.

You'll keep saying, hold on, I'll shut up. I'll go back to my corner. Y'all keep saying that that country, that we have sovereignty. Okay, well, when exactly was it the American people, when was there a referendum? And we were asked, Mr. Joe Citizen, do you vote yes or no to open the borders to every swinging date from the third world to come in? We never had that referendum. We had Ronald Reagan, who passed his amnesty with the promise that the borders would be closed. Guess why the borders weren't closed?

We got all these immigrants who came in. You had Senator Joe Kenner, or Tay Kennedy in 1965 from the Immigration Act, said immigration will not depress wages. That's a lie. He said the demographics of the country would not change. That was a lie. This has been an ongoing issue my entire life. It has never been addressed.

Meanwhile, we have, no, we have a homeless American sleeping and dying under freaking, every bridge in this country. Oh, those poor immigrants. Look how bad they're treated. Fuck you and go home. Even you will point out that Donald Trump is doing this wrong because ice is full of goons as opposed to actually working. Meaning it seems like you guys have a very similar perspective at the very least on ice in and of itself the way they go about it. And for Ted's point, the reason I asked the question is because she was talking in a way where I was trying to understand where's her floor.

Like if we're having a debate, let's say we're having a conversation on abortion. And I'm like, yeah, at a certain point, you know, you shouldn't do it. And you are making an argument, what sounds like you believe that you should be able to go to nine months. And I'm like, well, wait a minute. Do you think that you should be able to abort the baby at nine months? And the person is being squarely about the answer. And so it's like, I wasn't, look, I wasn't trying to distract or pull away. I was trying to figure out where's her floor.

If she, for example, she could have easily said, well, no, countries do have borders. And there needs to be an immigration system, but it needs to be one. She has what she exists. She told you that. She didn't say that. She said borders are fiction and that people should all be treated the same. She said they're an artificial construct, which is objectively true. That's the difference.

But that's what I mean about squirley. It's like you're saying that because you're trying to avoid the question of. Yeah, she was. She was squarely on that. No question. But I also, but also, look, Robbie, look, I mean, if I was a pussy interviewer, guilty as charged, you know, I tend to be, I tend to like to let people say their peace. And I also feel like, you know, you let people talk and then you discuss what they had to say, you know, with more after the fact so that you have, you really get, let you tease it out. You're trying to find out what do they have to say.

I mean, what became pretty clear is that she pretty much is an open border person, right? Like, basically, if you want to be able to go from country A to country B, you should be able to do that. And that's not the world we live in, right? I was worried about getting about that becoming the entire interview. Maybe I'm wrong. I was just curious. Like, she could have just said, yes, I'm for open borders in the conversation. Well, the thing is, to be clear, right.

Like, well, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. What does that mean? What does that mean? Now, listen, the two of you, y'all are the host. I'm not. I'm the guy who lives in the background who occasionally pumps off with opinions. I get it. And in the chat, one of the people asked,

Robbie, what is your opinion about CEOs and migrants? Doesn't the CEO deserve more culpability for the crime of their committee? To which case, I said yes. If you are a CEO and you're hiring immigrants, you should be dropped out of a plane from 30,000 feet. I mean, listen, I've been very clear. here. Whereas the migrants, you get to go home to your country. I'm not for dropping migrants out of planes. CEOs, yes. And so the way that she kept trying to, she kept trying to paint this as a racial issue. First of all, white people. Well, there's a strong racial component here. I mean, look,

we cared about, we cared about Alex Pretty. Oh, my God. Because he was a white dude, right? You cared about, you cared about him because he, because he was a so-called ally against ICE. Listen, white people are what, seven percent of the global population. So, of course, the mass. majority of immigrants through any majority white country are going to be brown. That's called math. That doesn't do as race. Listen, it doesn't seem to be a racial component in a way to Donald Trump deals with it.

I mean, claiming that the Haitians are eating cats is pretty fucking racist to me. Whatever. Maybe the cat tastes good. I don't know. I've never ate a cat. Now, I have to use cats as fox bait,

but I've never ate a cat. So I don't know. Maybe they're tasty. I don't know. What I do know is that they should not be. Wait, I'm going to need to pursue that. And then the way that.

And then the way that shut and then she did the whole thing you all do where she's like, well, they have protective status. Presidents do not make laws. Congress does. Immigration law was passed both chambers of Congress, signed by a president. It is law. Wait, guys, I have to go. It's one o'clock thing.

All right. Robbie on your anger on this. We're going to let that go. It's guess. I am. Listen, that that, that heifer needs to be done. deported like right now. Yeah, but you fed you fed cats to dogs to foxes.

All right. But I was born here, Ted. I'm your own. I'm your own native born cat killer. The point is, listen, I get it. You want to be respectful to the guests. You'll be respectful to her time. Let her sell her propaganda.

I get it. That's why you're the host. I'm not. But she's a lying heifer and y'all just gave her a pass. Okay. Let's see. Are there any comments we need to get to? Oh, yeah.

There's a crap ton of them. All right. Let me, let's do the, thank you very much for the $10 dead meme club. Are there actually any dangerous criminals or sleeper cells entering the U.S. through illegal immigration? Or is this just a scare tactic? How do we weigh this threat while still being humane? I guess, well, it is the 25th anniversary of 9-11.

And, you know, but I think they were all legal immigrants, the people who came, the hijackers all came here legally, if memory serves here. Let's see who else we have here. Oh, Blake said, Fuck the Guest, send her back yesterday. And thanks for the $5. Alm, 4655, does she really want to let everyone in? That sounds pretty extreme.

A nation needs its borders, in my opinion. It also needs to control its capitalist influence. It's better not to have any. Listen, I'm sorry if I came off as being, Is this being mad at you? I'm not mad at you. Thank you. But just y'all glazed her.

J'all so glazed her. No, no, look. That was pathetic. You know, I wanted to, like maybe so, perhaps so, probably so. I just wanted to sort of see what she'd have to say. And I wanted to try to stay focused on, like, the community's resisting ice aspect of this, because that's the topic here. And I personally fucking hate it as an author.

When I come on and to talk about, you know, this or that, talk about what's left. And then I end up getting sat, you know, I have to talk about some other cartoonist's cartoon or something. And I'm like, why did I even show up to this show? But the whole, but here's the thing that. It's germane. Because her whole book is about resisting ICE. Okay, well, what is ICE's mandate? Whether to go right or wrong, it is to round up people who have no legal right to be here and deep court.

And some U.S. citizens, too, apparently, from time to take. time again what is their mandate right their mandate is to arrest people who have no legal right to be right in this country period and send them home right that is their job and let me tell you something you should be really freaking glad not in power because if i was in minneapolis feel like a thousand people trying to keep my my police force doing their job i was in the army in and i would i've declared insurrection that would clean house because you're an authoritarian well i mean if you have laws you don't You know, I have to pay the income tax. I don't like to.

So why should I have to pay, why should I have to obey federal income tax but immigrants don't have to obey immigration law? Explain that to me. Speak slowly so I can understand. Why is one bad and one is good? Why does one make me a criminal? Dillum makes me a freedom fighter. Look, the thing about ICE is they're breaking the law because they're not even

fucking showing identification. So I don't even know who the fuck they are. They're kidnapping people. They're random people. As far as I know, I don't even know that there are, there's any such thing as ICE. You know, there's no ID. There's no badge numbers, no marked cars. They're snatching people off the streets.

I mean, we may be talking about us. I mean, you know, you know what I'm saying. It's like their tactics are illegal. And they don't provide people with, you know, they don't read them with their Miranda rights. They don't have any, they don't have any access to counsel or to communications. they are themselves an illegal goon squad that's breaking even more laws than the illegal immigrants are. Listen, I am not, Trump is doing the right thing the wrong way. We can all agree on that.

I have no desire to gut what's left to the Constitution. I don't want to spend the Fourth Amendment. That's important. There's the things we've got to have, right? Also, if someone comes up and they all have a uniform on and they try to grab me or my wife, I will avail myself on my second amendment rights to make sure I'm able to take care of my family. There's the right way and wrong thing to do, right way and a wrong way to doing things. Now, you can go out and you can say, well, no, like you're, that's a guest.

I'm sure if I would have come on, she would have called me a racist. There's people in the chat right now calling me a racist. Rob, you sound like a racist. Immigrants not a race. And I don't care if you're white, black, purple, green. I do not care. Nor do I care what places did you come from. Even Milo got deported by the-

Do no one has a legal right to immigrate here. No one, period. You come in as a guest. I can't go to Canada without a visa. I can't go to Jamaica without a visa. No, you can totally go without a visa. But, yeah, Americans have a, you just show up. To where?

Canada. You can just drive across the border. I mean, they check your passport, or your passport card, but you don't need a visa. Yeah, same difference. But anyway, the point that I'm trying to make is, you've got to have permission to go, right? Like, I can't just go break in your house. No. And listen, that's what illegal immigrants are.

They are invaders. They're coming uninvited to my home. And I have everybody to ask. Most of these guys were invited under, under Biden. They were invited. That's my beef with you. My God. Presidents do not make law.

But president set policy. And presidents, okay, Congress, remember if I'm wrong. It's more as I've done civics. The legislative body is what? What is it called? It's the Congress. Then what does Congress do? They pass laws.

What do presidents then do? They sign laws. Correct. Do presidents make law? The answer is no. No, but under our system, presidents have incredible ability to a latitude to decide the priorities of which laws are enforced and how. But they shouldn't.

Well, I agree with that. You're not going to get any argument for me, but I'm just saying under the, but from the standpoint, but from the standpoint of like the guy. I don't get an argument from me either. But listen, I'm going to give them the thing is that like if you showed up an Eagle Pass, Texas in 2022 and you got signed in by Customs and Border Protection with that, with the app, and you followed, you did everything they asked of you, then you're allowed to stay as long as they said, you're allowed to stay. The end. I mean, that's it. That's the rules. Okay, we're going to go. Thanks everyone for joining us. We'll be back tomorrow, Thursday, 9 a.m. Eastern Time to 10 a.m. Eastern Time. We're here Monday through Friday, 9 a.m. to 10 a.m. And then 12 noon to 1 p.m. Mondays, Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. So it only needs to be deported. She needs to go back. I don't know how she got here, but I'm sure she's here legally. Well, I'm sure she is. And you guess what?

It's okay. We can still deport it up. So you're 499 from Harrington. I'll go away on. But this, 8635, is the number of illegals who entered under Biden really that enormous? Oh, yeah. Biden led in millions. It's actually fucking insane.

And to this day, I'm not really sure why the fuck he did. But anyway, all right. You know why he did, Ted? No, I don't. You're freaking communist. Of course, he did it to depress wages and to, get into weightings are already being depressed by AI and by the pandemic. And that's one of the questions I asked you to ask the guest.

Why did you all these immigrants with AI and automation? And it just didn't happen. To hell, man. Bye, everyone. Talk to you later.