DeProgram with John Kiriakou and Ted Rall - DeProgram: “Epstein Fallout, FBI Chaos, Ethnic Cleansing in Gaza”

Episode Date: July 15, 2025

The “DeProgram show with political cartoonist Ted Rall and CIA whistleblower John Kiriakou” is now three days a week: Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 5 pm Eastern! Let’s dig into the civil war within MAGA over Jeffrey Epstein, where the Justice Department’s denial that a “client list” exists is only sparking more cover-up allegations. Trump loyalists are urging the rank-and-file to move on lest they play into Democratic hands. Will they? Next, John and Ted break down the chaos within the FBI. The FBI is mired in a deepening crisis, with a whistleblower alleging a leadership scandal involving Director Christopher Wray and senior officials who are accused of suppressing internal dissent and mismanaging high-profile investigations, undermining the agency’s credibility. Leaked memos reveal bitter factionalism, allegations of political interference in cases like January 6th, and a culture of retaliation against agents who raise concerns, prompting bipartisan calls for congressional oversight and radical reforms to restore public trust. In a New York Times interview, Joe Biden defended his use of an autopen for signing clemency decisions, insisting that he personally authorized each pardon and commutation. But his denials confirm the accusations. Biden admitted to not individually approving each name for categorical pardons but claimed he set the criteria. And his answers were meandering and inarticulate. Seven senators, including four Democrats (Gary Peters, Tina Smith, Jeanne Shaheen, Dick Durbin) and three Republicans (Mitch McConnell, Thom Tillis, Tommy Tuberville), have announced retirements ahead of the 2026 midterms, creating competitive open seats. These exits, driven by age, political pressures, and personal decisions, could reshape the Senate’s balance of power, with North Carolina and New Hampshire emerging as key battlegrounds. Turning to the Middle East, Israel is openly discussing its plan to indefinitely displace Palestinians, risking derailment of fragile Gaza truce talks, risking “ethnic cleansing” charges under international law, and fueling regional unrest. A leaked ICE memo from Acting Director Todd Lyons allows deportations of migrants to countries where they lack citizenship, often with just six hours’ notice, even without assurances that they won’t be murdered, risking thousands being sent to unfamiliar nations, including war zones. It could uproot longtime U.S. residents with work permits and families, sending them to places where they face death, persecution or torture.

Hi, everyone. Thanks for tuning in to D-Program with John Kariaku and me, Ted Raul. It is Monday, 5 p.m. Eastern Time on Bastille Day, July 14th. Oh, it is Bastille Day. It is Vestiel Day. Right. Leave la France. And let's get into it. We've got a lot to talk about. There's the ongoing Maga War over the Epstein files. There's also a leadership crisis within the FBI. I imagine, John, you'll have a few things to say about that. Joe Biden's auto pen controversy, he tried to deny it, only made things look worse. The Senate retirements, seven key senators are quitting next year.

So what happened to the balance of the Senate in the midterms? We'll try to bring you up to speed on that. The Israelis are becoming far more upfront about their plans for ethnic cleansing. So that's causing the truce talks, such as they were. to break down. There's this ICE deportation memo, basically saying, you know, they can, they don't care if they deport you anywhere in the world, even if it's a place where you might be tortured and killed. That's totally fine, not a problem. And the latest news from America's best looking former governor, Andrew Cuomo, he's got some stuff to say that's going to affect

the New York City mayor's race. All right, John, let's just get right into it. So first, and foremost, Maga World, basically, I think kind of the whole thing to me is really comes down to this piece by Miranda Devine, who's, you know, one of the luminaries of Maga. She's a columnist at the New York Post. Very good writer. Truly, I mean, you know, it's like, to me, the measure of a good writer and a good columnist is someone whose work I admire when I disagree with almost everything they have to say. She's one of those people. She's really good. But she's arguing in yesterday's post, hey, listen, Maga World, this is only, the Epstein thing is only feeding into the Democrats. They want us to beat each other up. We've got to let it go. I know

it's fishy. I know it smells bad. And I know it seems like rich and powerful people are being covered up for, but we just got to let it go. You've got to stick together as a team. It might be the least persuasive argument I've ever read by her. Yeah, that came straight from the White House. That was the White House's one sheet paper on, on Epstein talking points. Because that's exactly what they want. You know, Trump tried it last week when he interrupted this reporter who was asking both, well, Pam Boddy started by asking Pam Bondi, she started by asking Pam Bondi about Epstein. And Trump says, wait a minute, don't answer that. Do you want to answer that? Why is anybody still talking about this? This creep died years ago. You're still talking about

It's like, well, you're the one that ran on this in the in the 2024 election. This was your issue. You're the one who kept the Epstein scandal alive. I was on the Patrick Bed David show last week and he said to me and I hadn't thought about it this way until he said it, but this is the gravest crisis that Donald Trump has faced. It wasn't, it wasn't, you know, relations with Russia or the collapse of talks. with North Korea or the war in Ukraine or the war in Gaza.

It's this because he promised his base he was going to get to the bottom of it and then didn't. And not only didn't, but made it look as bad as it could possibly look. You remember, Ted, the press conference last week where Cash Patel and Dan Bonjino were sitting like this, right, scowling, kind of looking up over their glasses. and they so clearly didn't want to be there and they so clearly didn't want to have to tow Pam Bondi's line. There was a great piece in, I think it was the Associated Press today

saying that, you know, Bongino never showed up for work on Friday. He boycotted. He didn't call in sick or anything. He just didn't show up for work. Well, I mean, if you or I did that, we'd be fired. He took a mental health day. It took a mental health day. And this was his pressure, his pressure on Pam Bondi to make her resign.

But what happened to Pam Bondi? Donald Trump, who's far more politically savvy than he seems to be often, he invited her to this, you know, soccer match and they were on TV together. And he expressed great faith in Pam Bondi. When a reporter asked him at the soccer match whether Bongino was going to resign, he said, I don't know, maybe he will. I've been on his show many, many times. I like him. He's a good guy. I hope he doesn't be fine.

I guess not. I mean, what kind of endorsement is that? So, Von Gino sort of overplayed his hand. With that said, the MAGA basis with Bongino and Cashford Bell, because they clearly wanted to provide more information, wanted to release more information than Pam Bondi was willing to release. And so instead of this thing going away, it just got worse. you know it's funny i mean i see echoes i see echoes all over the place the expressions that you

described on uh cash patel's face reminded me of that lady during covid who uh was there like when trump was talking about the bleach and she's like yeah and and also this is also i think mega world is experiencing what democrats and they experienced we all experienced when we were told that Biden was just fine right like there's nothing to see here don't worry about a thing. They handed the MAGA influencers, those giant binders that said Epstein files, volume one, two, three to come. It's like, look, we're so transparent. And it's like, the thing is, we might be stupid, but we're not idiots, right? So it's kind of like now the question is, I mean, okay, so let's speculate. What's in the files? I mean, is, I mean, is there,

there is it really what really happened here i mean well look at this promise this obviously they took a look and one of two things is true either either trump's telling the truth but he looks like a liar or he's lying and what's he lying about what do you think it is i don't believe i don't believe pam bondi when she says that there are no files i i made a joke the other day that Or client. Yeah. To paraphrase. Right.

Guilty list of rich, powerful dudes whose penises went into places that they were not supposed to be. And to paraphrase Bill Clinton, it depends on what the definition of file is. You know? So one of the things that has really bothered me about this is you've got, you've got Epstein and Galane Maxwell. Galane Maxwell didn't commit suicide. She got 20 years in prison. This can't possibly have been, you know, the extent of the conspiracy. Pam Bondy put her foot in her mouth the other day,

and I'm surprised that nobody cracked on her. But she said, indignantly, these videos show nothing but disgusting child pornography, and they will never be released. They'll never see the late of day. Great. We don't want to watch the child pornography. We want to know who the adults are that are raping the children.

Why aren't you telling us? And if you don't want to show that video, dump it on the internet, even with like little, you know, grayed out. Of course. That's fine. But I want every one of those men to be prosecuted. Also.

Why not bring in like, I don't know, two or three seasoned reporters from, let's say, CNN and Fox News and, you know, OAN, let's say, and have them come in and look at them, have them look at them. Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. And why haven't the security guys whom Epstein hired to be monitors to watch all the screens that were attached to the hidden cameras, why haven't they been indicted?

or even identified or arrested. What about the household staff? Has the FBI interrogated the household staff? They're the ones that saw all this going and nobody said anything. Producer Robbie in the private chat brings up a good question. I want to know where Epstein was getting his money. We all want to know where he was getting his money. Exactly.

So we don't know. He was a tax consultant. He was an elementary school math teacher or junior high school math teacher. He didn't have any experience. He didn't even finish college. And he owned his own island. Mm-hmm. And not to mention, a townhouse on the Upper East Side of Manhattan.

The widest townhouse on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. That's a lot of money. Yeah. There's no way it was back then, even though he bought it a long time ago, had to be at least $15 million. At least. Had to be. It sold for like in the 40s to the best of my recollection.

Yeah. So, I mean, so, yeah, I mean, the working, there's a lot of working theories here. but like basically we are not being told the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth that's it what did trump so when trump promised to release this stuff he one of two things also had to be true either he had some idea of what was in there or he didn't i'm suspecting the latter um and then they got in there and he's like oh shit do you agree with that i do okay so then I agree with it. All right, because otherwise, it doesn't make sense.

Otherwise, why would he promise to release it knowing that he wouldn't be able to? Unless somebody at a lower level or some group of people at a lower level destroyed everything. Which, as you pointed out, has a way of happening, like certain waterboarding videos. That's right. Even though the MK Ultra documents. Things. Oh. that's right that's right so i i can't believe i'm even going to say these words but i'm with cash

patel and dan bongino on this thing well what's going to happen i mean so i mean so i guess here's the thing right so um the you know maga world is a big tent um you know it encompasses lots of different strains of ideology and there's a certain sizable plurality of who really want to know what's going on and are not going to drop this bone. Are they going to, how will the White House deal with them? I'm just telling them settle down doesn't seem like it's doing the job. And that was the strategy last week was to tell everybody settle down and just hope that the thing would go away by the weekend and it didn't.

It got worse. You know, when you've lost. As coverups usually do. Yes. And anybody who spent any time in Washington, will tell you that it's not the crime that brings down presidents. It's the cover-up of the crime. And so when you've lost Bannon and you've lost Marjorie Taylor Green and you've lost

Tucker Carlson, you're in quicksand. And you need to do something transparent to get yourself out. It doesn't seem like, and it seems like that's just not, I was going to say, I don't think it's the Trump way. It's just not the official way. that's right it's it's not their first instinct right that is right the truth shall set you free but we don't know the truth uh where does this go from here does it fade away or um does this or do we i'll say i i think they're going to miraculously find something documents hard drives

videos something and they'll release something you think they'll throw some the person they care about the least under the bus i do i do somebody's going to end up resigning are getting fired. I mean, the FBI's New York field office, special agent in charge, was fired in the very beginning because he was hoarding Epstein documents and not releasing them. So there's something out there. I'm confident. And of course, and it's interesting, Democrats are just sitting by with popcorn, which is the right

move, you know. I'll tell you, I've been so mad. Democrats for so long, Ted. And I'm even angrier this week than I was a week ago. I hate the Democrats so much right now. They don't stand for anything. The only issues they have are like, maybe we can score some points with this Epstein debacle. Okay. Well, new ideas would be helpful, but if you want to go with Epstein, okay. And the other thing is, oh, this big, beautiful bill, if we're really, really against it. We may win a couple of seats. Again, some ideas would be nice rather than just being against everything. And then today, I'm sure you saw this, fucking Barack Obama, who I wish

would just shut his big flapping gums and go away, was yelling at progressives that they need to get with the program intact to the center. It's like, you know, you try to just crap in Philadelphia the last week before the election and it bit Kamala Harris in the ass and now you're saying don't pay any attention to what happened in Philadelphia

everybody needs to move to the right this progressivism this is no good this is I mean you know this I mean it's so crazy you have like when the right ends up finding a shooting star

a new you know someone who's creates a new path with a new approach, whether that's Trump in 2015 or Schwarzenegger back during the California recall election. The rights, like, at first, they're like, uh, uh, I don't know. Okay, the Democrats, they have, they have someone like the AOC, they have the squad people.

They get Bernie Sanders. Now they have Zohran Mandani. No, no, no, no. No. They go away, drop dead, die. That's their approach. And they stick to it. They don't get the memo.

Well, let me ask you something. They're so big at it. Yeah. Let me ask you something. Today, Mamdani made an appointment that I think is far more important than people realized. He named a guy who used to be the spokesman for the DNC to be his spokesman. On the one hand, people are saying, no, this is good because it shows you how serious he is about communication. And then on the other hand, people are saying, no, there's not one Democrat.

Socialist that could be the spokesman. Oh, my God, he's moving to the center. What are we looking at here? Well, I would say that, like, you know, as a leftist who voted for Mamdani, I'm on yellow alert here. You know, this is we're all waiting for the sellout, right? Now, we understand that there's obviously, you know, New York City. Like, it's a big city budget of billions of dollars. You're going to have to, it's a big, the party's a big tent. You can't. tell all the moderates and the conservatives to go fuck themselves. So you're going to have to bring some of them in. That's a smart move. And so the question is, where do you do it?

He's already made some noise that he's willing to keep the current police commissioner. Yeah. So, and she's a conservative Democrat. That's, I don't know, he hasn't made a promise there, but he probably will keep her. A spokesperson is kind of like, okay, whatever. They're a spokesperson. They could go out and say whatever the administration tells them to say. So that's probably okay. But if we start seeing DNC hacks going into the policy shop for this administration, it's going to be a problem for the progressive left.

Ted, what's the name of this guy? One of our viewers is asking, and I'm looking and I can't seem to find it. I remember where I saw it. I'm going to find it if you don't remember. I'll have to look it up too. I mean, it was not a memorable name, but... No. I'm going to find it. Here he goes. All right.

Of course, obviously, I have to put him in my login for the New York Times or to find this. So, yeah, please do. Anyway, I don't remember the person's name. Oh, Jeffrey Lerner. That was him. Jeffrey Lerner.

That's right. right. Yep, here it is. Got it right here. Someone's like to really vote for him. Yeah, I really voted for him. Why wouldn't I? Yeah. And to tell you the truth, the spokesman, at least at the federal level, the spokesman never

have any real power authority at all. They really don't. So if this is who he wants, he chose the guy because he's because he's the... You can hire a right-wing Republican to be your spokesman. Who cares? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, look, where it's going to, you know, right now, he doesn't really have to compromise a hell of a lot. He's so far ahead of the polls. I guess since you brought up the mayoral race, we should probably talk about Cuomo. So I haven't. Yeah. So Cuomo agreed that. Yeah, it was just minutes before we started the show, Cuomo's campaign made an announcement that he is staying in the race and he is running as an independent, which is great for Mumdani.

You called out those polls last week that showed that Mamdani wins even bigger with Cuomo in the race. But, I mean, the bottom line, I looked at the polls again. There haven't been new ones out, but there will be probably in the coming day or two. It doesn't matter who's running. He's going to win. Right now, there's just no path to either one, not either. either one, but to the other three. Curtis Lewa is a lovely guy, but doesn't have a prayer.

He's at 14%. Mayor Adams is at 11%. He was on Patrick Bet David today, and his heart just was not in it. He and his 11% support. His heart's just not in it. It's sad. And it's really sad for the citizens of New York City who deserve better and frankly need better at this time.

The city's in a lot of trouble, fiscally and otherwise. And, you know, it's a problem. He's going to be, so, yeah, I mean, look, the thing is, the billionaire class have all lined up. They're all pissed. They don't want Mumdani. This is not a wise move, right? This is where I sort of realized that you don't have to be that smart to be a billionaire. I mean, if I were a billionaire and I personally hated Mumdani and Democratic socialism,

I would be like, yeah, but he's going to win. Let's make him our friend. let's suck up to him, let's donate to him, let's buy him, let's win. Ted, you know, of course, John Katsimatidis. He's the Greek-American billionaire. He's the second wealthiest real estate billionaire in New York next to Trump. And he owns Christie's super much. He owns Gristides and Red Apple, I think it's called, and Wawa and all this stuff.

So he made the most ridiculous statement yesterday. He's like, ho-ho-ho, ho, ho, socialism, I'm going to. have to spend 183 days a year at my condo in St. Petersburg, Florida, instead of 183 days at my Fifth Avenue condo in Manhattan. I can't live with socialism. It's like, go. Go. We don't want you anyway. We're fine. Yes. Yeah. I mean, and what's also funny is that these billionaires, first of all, they don't seem to understand arithmetic. If you're going to try, try to give Mamdani a run for his money. Really, Cuomo is the only game you've got going.

He's 24% in the polls after 37% for Mamdani. You know, I mean, he might close that gap. And he's a, look, he's a smart, seasoned, experienced politician who knows New York City and state inside and out. And his father, I mean, these connections are like, you can't beat it. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, come on, Adams with his 11%. New Yorkers want him in prison is where they're. they want him.

They don't want him in Tracy Mansion. Yeah. Which is where he belongs. It is where he belongs. And the thing is, watch this, or at least watch a clip of this Patrick Bet David interview. When I say his heart is just not in it, he sounds like Eeyore in this interview. Like, wah, wah, wah. He's, yeah, it's like, dude.

It's pathetic. If he had any dignity, he just announced that he's not running again for re-election. Exactly. I try to get a job as a professor at City College and be done with it, right? That's it. It's really poor. But, you know, that's how it's going to go. And then, of course, the thing is, like people like me, and I've now met many more,

there's a huge contingent of Mondani's support that only comes out of the anti-billionaire vote. Like, oh. And that's legit. Yeah. People are tired of all this. Yeah, it's big. It's a big vote. Well, all right. I mean, yeah, no, it's, I think unless Mamdani gets caught committing some kind of serious crime, there's a scandal. He's just going to, he's going to stroll, he's going to amble right into Gracie Mansion.

Good, good question from, from Ridd. Do you think Bloomberg's going to have any, any influence in this thing? He's got an awful lot of money. But when he tried. No, no, no, no. I know for a fact that he will because. Because, John, like, we have a, we have a law here in New York. where if you finance a, like, any kind of, like, you know, New Yorkers for change, like sort of anonymous thing, then the top three donors to that organization are listed on all the campaign material. During the primary, Bloomberg was, like, sending out all the racist comment, all the, like, postcards, anti-Mamandani, like, you know, like New Yorkers, you know, New Yorkers against socialism or whatever.

And it was like, number one donor, Michael Bloomberg. Oh, man. I don't see him sitting out the general election after losing the primary. And he, we know from past experience that he's willing to spend tens of millions of dollars and just get clobbered. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look, he doesn't care.

I mean, he's got more money than God. But he's not spending it well in my opinion. No. No, he's not. He didn't spend it well in his own presidential campaign. campaign. And this is just, no, it's, it's hilarious. You know, I do, I do worry about Zoron's ability to govern. Not really with city council. I think that's going to be fine. The real issue is going to be the usual clash between a New York mayor and a New York

governor, which you always have, no matter what. You know, Adams, you know, he doesn't really ask for anything from Hockel, so he doesn't get anything from Hockel. So he doesn't get anything from But it, you know, it's not, it wouldn't be the, you know, first time that a governor and a, you know, Cuomo didn't get along with, you know, Mayor Adams either. Right. Or DeBlazio. Right. That's true. Or de Blasio. Oh, which reminds me, there was a New York Times piece over the weekend saying that that these lefties from the de Blasio administration are just lining up to be brought into the Mamdani administration.

there were so many sort of mainstream Democrats who were thinking, well, he's a Democratic socialist, so he's going to have to tack to the right. No, not necessarily. There are a lot of people who have government experience, city government experience from four years under de Blasio, who are perfectly happy to step right back into government roles. And this is a left-wing city, right? So a lot of people who pretend to be a liberal Democrat on TV, you know, They're in their heart of, you and I both know them.

In their heart of hearts, they're so, they're democratic socialists, right? Or progressives or whatever you're going to call them. Even to the left of there, they just can't say it. Like, I know a lot of people like that at like the New York Times and other places like that. You know, it's like secretly, you know, they're catting around with people like us. We should probably keep going here. Let's talk about the Autopenn interview. Did you, John, did you have a chance to read the New York.

Times interview with President Biden. So Biden claims, so Biden's been accused of basically not having signed off on all the pardons and clemencies that were issued in a blizzard right before the end of his term. They were signed by Autopin. That's a fact that he was signed with Autopin. And basically that's totally legal as long as he was aware of it if he made a call or talked to someone and said, hey, this thing, this thing, I want you to use to sign it. This was sketchy because he was at the White House when they were signed by AutoPen, which is really not

what it's for. It's not illegal. No. But it's weird. And then basically he gave an angry, rambling, strange, odd Biden-like interview to the Times where they did fuck those guys

and tell me I'm lying. And if you read, and the times I thought was really clever in but they quoted at length, right? The, like, giant blocks of text. And they just let it tell its own story. They didn't editorialize like they often do. And it was like, wow.

I mean, if you ever doubted Jake Tapper's story who we had on a couple of weeks ago about the dementia, this was in part denying his dementia, and the denial confirmed, you know, the story. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He did himself in. I read that transcript and I was like, I don't have any idea what he's saying. No. No idea. It's funny, too, because the Washington Post took a different tack and they said, you know, Biden confirms that he knew exactly. It's like, well, that's one way of looking at it. It's not the way I'm looking at it. I don't think it's the way anyone who reads that would do it. I would quote it here for the Washington. But I feel like, you know, probably they've suffered enough after four years of Biden.

They probably get the idea. It was weird. I, you know, this was kind of like, I picked, it's like a re, it's like a reboot of the debate. Those guys say I can't debate. I'll show them. Fuck them. Well, I don't know. Yeah.

It shows that the Democrats' biggest problem was they didn't hide him enough. No. It's, it's bad. It's as bad as we thought. it was. Yes. I just hope I really seriously would love to see an investigation. I hope we, I feel like James Comer is, you know, the chairman of the House Oversight Committee. He's dancing around it, but he's not, he hasn't really fully committed. You know, I'm sure he's weighing the pros and cons. And I got to say part of the pros and cons is now you have a 79-year-old

Republican president and you've got to be thinking like what if we have to deal with something similar soon or rather than later? You know, it's a pendulum, and it's like most of the time, neither side realizes it's a pendulum or cares enough to just stop, stop themselves. They think especially, well, Democrats seem to, in particular, think that they're going to be in power forever. Do you remember under Obama, there was once a period where this is actually seriously considered that the Democrats literally were toying with the idea that there might never be a Republican

president again. I remember them saying that. And they needed to, like, really set things up for themselves, and they got rid of the judicial filibuster so that they could push through all of their, you know, judicial appointments. And now, of course, this is biting them in the ass. And one of the things that they said at the time, and I hate when Democrats say this, and they say it every two years,

Texas is turning purple. Actually, no, it's not. No. No, it's not turning purple. you keep fooling yourself into thinking that it is. Right. And it's not. Or Georgia.

Or Georgia or North Carolina. And Florida has moved from purple to red. And so is Ohio and Iowa. Never to be seen again, I don't think. No. It's nonsensical. Well, yeah. So speaking of domestic politics, there's the Senate retirements, right?

So we've got four Democrats, Gary Peters, Tina Smith, Gene Shea He. Shaheen, Dick Durbin, of course, very prominent Democrat, three Republicans, Mitch McConnell, Tom Tillis, who of course was maybe pushed out after having been bullied by Trump and over the big beautiful bill, and Tommy Tuberville are all dipping at the end of their terms next year. And now we may add Joni Ernst of Iowa. She's finishing her second term. She's still relatively young. She's very young by Senate standards.

She said that she's going to fill out the paperwork, but she hasn't raised any money. She's only hired one staff member for her re-election, and the Republicans are begging her not to retire. Oh, well. And we have like another storm of biblical proportions moving in. I don't know if you can hear the thunder. I can hear it. Aye, aye, aye, here we go again. Maybe God doesn't like the program.

I'll tell you. Maybe that's God's way of saying that he loves it. You never know. He works in mysterious ways. He does. Tommy Tuberville of Alabama, year after year, after year, after year, is voted the stupidest senator. That's true. Well deserved.

This is the guy who said that his father fought in World War II, and he chased those communists all over France. Remember that? I do remember that. Moron. Mitch McConnell, he probably doesn't even realize that he's still in the Senate. Yeah, that's true. And Joni Ernst, you know, she was actually not predicted to win the first time.

And then when she did win, people said, well, she was an unusually strong candidate for the Republicans. She said all the right things, and she caught a break. And then she just crushed it the second time. and you know she she almost single-handedly turned iowa into a red state it used to be blue then it was purple now it's solidly red and so there it is and so the republicans need her i said last week ted that there's no chance for the democrats to take the senate none they'll probably take the house zero chance to take the senate well with another retirement or two And, you know, if they sort of catch it on the right day, I suppose there's an outside chance.

Ah, yes. John Fetterman. Let's talk about John Fetterman. Who should not be in the Senate? No. And a lot of people are worried now that Fetterman could change his party registration to Republican. He was actually asked about that last week. And he said that he would never do that because while he's not committed to the Democratic Party as a

party, he is committed to organized labor and they want him to remain a Democrat. That does not sound like a ringing endorsement to me of the Democratic Party. No, he's, he's not quite Joe Manchin, though. No, because Joe Manchin at least was a little bit smart. And Joe Manchin was, oh, well, that's for sure. And Joe Manchin was always one foot out the door, though. And, you know, that was part of his shtick. I mean, you know, that's how he, that's how he got elected in West Virginia anyway, deep reds. Yeah, Arlen Specter. I was actually on the Senate staff

when Specter switched parties. And he became a Democrat. That's what gave the Democrats 60 Senate seats and allowed them to pass Obamacare. So it was momentous. But then he got crushed in the Democratic primary and then went home and just died a few months later. John, speaking of Senate balance, right?

So I was, this morning, I was listening, I was reading some new polls about immigration and deportation numbers. Trump always was able to count on high support for his deportation and migration policy. That's really softening fast. I mean, he's going to be under, he's actually going to be underwater. Yes. And it's Republicans who are changing on this. That's right. So I'm wondering, I mean, you know, obviously it's really hard to see all the way out to July of 2026, much less November.

But even so, it's not hard to imagine after two years into the second Trump administration. He's 80 years old. People are, there's been some seriously abusive deportation stuff that we're going to talk a little bit about further in just a few minutes. there's it's not hard to imagine people losing some of people they know or know or people they know who know people they know um you know two steps removed or whatever you could just imagine all the economy maybe not being great um the the tariffs having a negative effect maybe the russia ukraine war blows up you can just imagine i don't see trump's numbers going up i think they're only going to go down yeah there you go

That's it. That's it. It's that doggone wind again. If that tree comes through my living room window, I'm going to flip out. It'll make that. We'll get us past 109 viewers on YouTube, though. All right. So, yeah, so I mean, the House, we already agree, is going to flip. The Senate, yeah, the Senate's probably squishy.

Squish, squishy. And that's changed from a week ago. Agreed. Yeah, I would say it's like a soft, if it were a stock and I'm a Republican, it's a soft hold, you know. Agreed. I would have said it was a harder hold, a firm hold last week. See, and what it comes down to, too, is candidate recruitment. So, for example, Alabama.

Alabama used to have just this unbroken wall of Democratic senators. They were some of the most conservative Democrats, like ever, anywhere in the country. Same in Georgia, same in Mississippi. That all changed in the 1980s. And now they're all Republicans, not in Georgia, but everywhere else. They're all Republicans. If the Democrats can put the money where their mouths are, you know, they're always talking about how the Democratic Party is a big tent party.

No, it's not. But if it were a big tent party and they were able to recruit a conservative, let's say, state senator or a secretary of state or transportation commissioner or whatever, like the Republicans are always so good at doing, you know, maybe they would have a chance to pick up one of these seats in a red state. But I'm just not sure that they're creative enough. what I'm seeing in the Democratic Party right now tells me that they either don't want to win or they're just in such a state of deep chaos that they can't win. I think it's the latter. Yeah. And I think there's the problem is that their leadership,

they still have fundamentally a different priority than winning, right? So maybe it's not so much not wanting to win so much as like not willing to do what it takes to, win. These are people who they would rather lose as a centrist, moderate, corporatist party than win as a partly Democratic Socialist Party because it would never be national. No, no way. But certainly, look, you're going to do better with the Democratic Socialists in a lot of parts of the country, particularly in the big cities, in the coasts. It's not crazy to think that even, you know, New York State could have a socialist governor one day. Sure. And, you know, let me add, this big 10th thing, it worked for the Democrats for decades.

Yeah. What the Southerners were interested in were running the Armed Services Committee and the Agriculture Committee. And then they're going to want some seats on appropriations because that's a big deal. And then the Democrats could do whatever they wanted with Social Security and the environment. in education and that worked everybody was happy that way but it's just different now now it's like no you have to come out in support of trans rights it's like nobody gives a shit about trans rights except the democratic national committee right and trans people yeah of course a gay friend of mine told me last week i was just talking to my one of my best friends from high

school saying that that as a gay man and a left of center registered Democrat that he is furious at how the Democratic Party has latched on to the trans issue at the expense of the gay rights movement he said there's a big split with you know yeah yeah he said I'm gay but I'm a man and I don't want he has two daughters he has three daughters some storm again it's so cool i'm jealous i love i love a i love a big storm he's he's got three daughters and um he said i don't want biological men going into the locker room with my daughters his daughters are like nine 12 and 15 he said i don't want that but now what i'm anti-trans he said i'm not i'm actually not anti-trans i'm angry that the that the trans movement has hijacked

the LGBT movement. Yeah, yeah. Well, there's, yeah, and there's other splits there as well that I'm considering. But, yeah, no, it's a point really worth taking. You know, and I think, unfortunately, I mean, what the Democrats don't do, and like Mamdani did do,

which I think is worth emulating, even if you don't like his politics, is you should figure out where you stand on an issue. It should be a, point of view that you can defend that you believe in and that's coherent, and then you go out there and you defend that point of view. And then you stick to it even if you take heat for it. People respect that even if they disagree with you. Democrats, they always seem to be leading from behind. I mean, even with gay marriage, right? I mean, it was basically Joe Biden running

off at the mouth accidentally. You remember that? I remember that. We're for gay marriage. Oh, we're not oh no no we're not for game oh wow joke i mean because jill president biden at the time i mean sorry president obama at the time had run in 2008 say uh officially as far as he was concerned marriage was between a man and a woman and so he and obviously by the way he didn't need to run that way because obviously that's not where the american people were but then they checked the polls and it was like after biden's talked and it was like most people agreed with whom it's like oh okay Right. Obama will come out in favor of gay marriage. I mean, that's how the Democrats roll.

Oh, yeah. They should have been leading. They should have been like, we want this. We want gay marriage. And then just pushed for it, push for it, push for it. I mean, that's what a leader does. A leader says, I can see over the mountain. There's better hunting grounds.

Follow me. I know. Trust me. It's going to be great. And here's how I know. But they don't do that. Yep, I think you're exactly right. They don't do that.

This whole leading from behind nonsense, it's just not for me. No, no. I don't think it's for Americans. So do you want to, shall we talk about the FBI leadership crisis a little bit? A few things going on. Yeah. Yeah. This is a big deal.

I don't see how, I don't see how Dan Bongino survives this. Nor do I necessarily think that he wants to survive this. You know, he was a very outspoken private citizen, especially on the Epstein issue. And the whole point of making somebody like Dan Bongigno, the deputy FBI director, was to get all of this stuff out there. And now they've made it look like his hands are tied,

and he's furious. well Cash Patel is going to do as he's told and remember he's a former U.S. attorney so it's his nature to do as he's told from the white by the White House and Pam Bondi's not going anywhere so I think

I think that this is going to result in in Bongino leaving agree what do you think about what do you think about the possibility of Matt Gates working his way back in Oh, he's back.

That's the thing about America. It's, there's, no one's really ever completely finished until they were found suicided in their cell. Then they're finished. Even then they might come back. They might be rehabilitated someday. Yeah, you know, I mean, I'm sure he's, he's plotting and scheming. It's, I don't see it, though.

He's, he's so personally reviled. yes um you know and and and with good cause you know i mean everything about him he's unpleasant he has gross sexual predilections uh and uh you know he even has like a nasty meaner he has a nasty looking face it's just like i don't think i don't see what he brings to the table how he makes his comeback i think anthony weiner had a better chance of making a comeback oh my God, and that says a lot. You know, look at it this way, too. Devin Nunes, when he left the house, he went right into the Trump organization, straight into it,

and he had, he had Trump media. Gates was supposed to be, like, for a minute, Gates was going to be the, what, the attorney general, right? Yeah, that's right. And then he wasn't. And what did Trump give him? Absolutely nothing. No.

Absolutely nothing. Yeah. Yeah. And Trump doesn't really usual. Well, sometimes he back burners people and brings them back later, right? So, you know, that's like sort of the NBC news kind of thing. You know, someone can say, you vanish. But, you know, Joy Reid, she could come back anytime. You know, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I forgot about her. There was another one, too, that I thought, oh, Rick Rennell. You know, there was talk that Rick Rennell would be secretary. of State. He's been given nothing. He was, he was the DNI, he was the ambassador to Germany, stepped on a lot of toes, which Trump loved. And then the second term, zip, nothing. Yeah. I don't understand it. The, I mean, the Kremlinology of the Trump administration is hard to discern from the outside, for sure.

That right. Yeah, I had a book proposal that didn't go anywhere that was basically, basically it was called dinner at Mar-a-Lago, and it's about all the hangers on, basically just waiting to curry favor with the president, and it was just about like that sort of day after day after day. I'm kind of sad, nobody. It turned out there was just no, what I was told by my agent who shopped it around, it was her idea, actually, that there's just literally no market for any satire about Trump.

No publisher wants to see it. because they're personally a bunch of Democrats and they're tired of Trump and they can't they can't be arced to do what you know and my approach to satire is to sort of pretend like bad people are actually better and nicer than they are that's to that's that's like sort of my back way in but even so they didn't they just they just like it's good it's well done I just don't want to think about Donald Trump that if I edited this I'd have to think about Donald Trump, just like, la, la, la, la. Ted, did you happen to see Tucker Carlson's interview the other day of George Santos? One of our viewers is asking about Santos. Why he gave George Santos two hours. Somebody told me, well, it's the same reason

he gave you two hours, because Santos doesn't deserve to be in prison for eight years, which is what he got. Eight years is a long time for being an idiot and a fraudster, but eight years. Oh, I totally agree. Michael Gardner, I totally agree that the Santos interview was so boring. So what happened? Yeah, you have to summarize.

Oh, he was, he was angry at everybody, seven years, thank you. He was angry at everybody, and, you know, he got screwed, and he didn't get his side of the story out there, and this is terrible. And I have to tell you, I agree seven years, it's an awful long time. That's an awful long time. but I think almost all of our sentences are too long. That's a whole different conversation we can have. Yeah, no, I agree with that. But by a lot.

By a lot. And somebody just said here a second ago... We're in a country now. You've heard this, John. I'm sure it drives you crazy, having done this. People say, oh, that guy only got 10 years. No big deal. Like, that's nothing.

Right. 10 years. Yeah. Yeah. They're just talking shit. Yeah. Somebody, it was Houdini. Houdini makes a really great point here.

He'll probably do six months and get pardoned. I think that's what Tucker was going with. I think Tucker was trying to highlight to Trump, who apparently still watches him, that that was the whole idea of spending two hours. Highlight it to Trump, maybe Trump can commute a sentence after a year. Yeah. You know, and Trump does that.

again rod blagojevich 14 years for a crime that was never consummated he just talked about the crime yeah

yeah that's a good flojo tube that is a very good point he said this sentence is punitive not reformative he's correct but that's the system that we have the system

the system doesn't seek to reform people that's why there's no money anymore for education and training you know time was where you go to prison and then you could learn small engine repair plumbing electricity you know whatever none of that stuff the only thing you can do in prison at the at the cost of the of the prison is get a GED that's it literally nothing else what about a college degree or no that's out of your pocket out of your pocket and you have to do it as a correspondence course because there are no computers

in prisons right which is also dumb yeah yeah yeah it's so dumb yeah well um yeah the stanoavia project they know how to do it right they do yeah and they're like yeah completely just a fraction of of uh their approach is so i mean it's crazy i mean it works even the guy who killed all the people on this island 70 people got 19 years i think brevick brevick brevich 20 years ish yes in greece like like most most of the european union countries life means 17 years unless you did something that's so heinous whoever happens to be the prime minister can keep you in the uh the terrorists from revolutionary organization 17 november they got 1,700 169 years, which really means 20.

But the U.S. government, every time they come up for parole, the U.S. government says, oh, my God, you better not release these guys. And I'm not sure, but I think that, thank you, John Doe, I think that we have told them, if you release them, we're going to kill them. And so they just keep them in prison. That's so weird. Yeah, well, when Greece had a socialist government from 2014 to 2019, they moved them from maximum security prison, Guadalas prison in Athens, to a minimum security camp. And these assholes who killed 27 people, they applied for and were granted a European Union grant to allow them to become.

beekeepers in prison, and they sold their honey to a prison collective in Brussels that distributed it. And then the conservatives took over again and said, all right, everybody back to the penitentiary, and that's where they are now. Oh, man. Weird as shit. We should mention the situation in Israel, the latest out of the New York times who seems to be really decidedly siding against the Netanyahu government really hard now and they're kind of editorializing in their news coverage basically the latest ceasefire talks look like they've been completely scuttled because as usual the Israelis keep moving the goalposts and now they're saying really openly what has been you know they're saying the quiet part out

loud. They're saying that we're going to keep on, we're going to push all the Palestinians down to a tiny section of the border. They're in Rafah next to the border with Egypt. Gee, I wonder why. And probably indefinitely, maybe never, they'll be able to come back home, but probably not, but who knows. And experts on international law are saying that's ethnic cleansing. It's a clear definition, there's really not much question about that. And so therefore, and also Hamas is saying, look, we're not leaving, we're not signing any ceasefire that doesn't bring a permanent end to the conflict. And the Israelis are like, we can go back to war anytime we want. So I don't think, I don't see any ceasefire plan coming out of this. And I just want to look, you know,

bird's eye view, you know, I don't think there's any world that Hamas goes. goes back to October 6th, 2020, three, and regrets what they did. I think they look back, the leadership looks back at this, and for everything that's happened, they won. I mean, they wanted to expose the Israelis as a bunch of overreactive, land stealing, mass murdering, ethnic cleansing maniacs. And they did. And like, the Israelis fell into the trap did exactly what we, everyone expected them to do,

went crazy, acted crazy, have just totally destroyed their support internationally in the U.S. and in Europe. It'll never come back. It's only going to get worse and worse. Probably the most brilliant Jiu-Jitsu move would have been like, yeah, obviously, this is an untenable situation.

We should move to a two-state solution right away. Let's have talks. And Hamas would have been like, Oh, yes. Now I know their Zionists watching her like, well, okay, Netanyahu is. scored some points. He destroyed Hezbollah. He's really messed with the Iranians. There's been regime change in Syria. All those things are true. And I think in the end, they won't

matter as much as what I just said. Oh, I think you're right. Did you happen to see the news that two former Israeli prime ministers, Yossi Bilan and Ehud Olmerich, both described Israel's humanitarian camps as concentration camps yesterday. They said, if it's a camp and you're not allowed out of it, that's a concentration camp. By definition, that's what a concentration camp means. It's a concentration of a population into a confined space. That's right. That's right. And another thing, too, President Pasechkian, the Iranian president, in his interview with Tucker Carlson last week, alluded very gently to having an injured

leg and he was sitting in a chair kind of like this with his leg propped up yeah and um it turned out that his leg was injured in an Israeli bombing raid they almost got him yeah it's crazy it is crazy and then of course the Washington post today says despite the bombings uh the Iranians say they believe a deal on their nuclear program is possible it's like yeah okay well how yeah i'm not buying it but you know what and i'm going to go out on a little limb here um i have no love of the uh iranian government but with that said the iranians have to develop a nuclear weapon now they have to because there has to be some sort of offset of the israelis otherwise the the Iranians are just simply not going to be able to protect themselves.

Right. No, I was going to say, I mean, so basically the Israelis, I mean, you know, one of the talking points of their supporters often is, you know, they were offered their own state and they turned it down under Yasser Arafat. And, you know, and I always, one of my retorts when I have one of these debates is like, it's not really your own state because the Israelis reserved the right to come and go as they please. anytime they had a security concern, and that's not sovereignty, right, as the PLO, as it was at the time, called it, you know, recognized correctly. The Israelis reserve generally the right to come and go as they please in Syria, Lebanon. And now it seems like they want to be able to fly all over Iran anytime they want. And I guess right now they can. But yeah, the Iranians, If you're Iran, you're like, we can't have that.

We just, and I don't even think it has anything to do with the ideological orientation of this government. If the government collapsed tomorrow and was replaced with a secular democracy, they'd still probably conclude the same thing. We have to keep the Israelis at bay. We've got to have a new program. I would, and I'm against nuclear proliferation. If I was president of Iran, I would say we have to do this. Oh, two good questions right here from, from Reed and Nick, was Dr. A. Q. Khan a top target on the CIA's list back in the day? You bet he was. You bet he was. There's a terrific book by Doug France and his wife, Catherine, I forget Catherine's last name, called, it was originally called the man from Pakistan. They changed the name to the nuclear to the nuclear jihadist. And they interviewed like three dozen former senior CIA people, all working on the nuclear issue.

It is the definitive book on AQ Khan. And Nick says, if Iran gets a nuke, does that mean Saudi would likely follow? Absolutely, yes. I would go so far as to say that the Saudis have been trying to get a nuke for longer than the Iranians have. I would agree with that. Now, for the Iranians, they only started to semi get serious like a few years ago. Yes.

Now they've got to be getting serious, if not they're idiots. Agreed. I want to say to Michael Gardner, agreed. It all starts with Balfour, but I mean, that's like the best place to start it, but although obviously there's antecedents before the 1920 Balfour Declaration that basically was the Brit saying giving away land that wasn't theirs. Hey, come on in. Those to them, not to us.

Over there, over there, take their land. It's fine. No worries. What was the CIA's policy on AQ Khan? The policy was to engage the Pakistanis in a dialogue. And they're like, look, you know, we really don't want to kill him. We were friends with the Pakistanis at the time. And so what ended up happening was the Pakistanis put him under house arrest.

And it was in his own house for like six years. But then the North Koreans would go visit him and the South Africans would go visit him and the Saudis would go visit. Catherine Collins, thank you. The Saudis would go visit him. And so he was perfectly able to do, you know, whatever he wanted to do. He just happened to be under house arrest. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I guess this one, two more, yeah, one more thing, right? So there's this ICE deportation memo. So acting director Todd Lyons issued a memo with internally, but it's been leaked that basically says that migrants are alleged migrants. In some cases, I'm not sure how careful they are to make sure they're not green card holders or U.S. citizens. I was just watching a YouTube clip that concerns a man who's from Maine, who has been living in Maine. He was born in Canada, has a green card since he was three years old.

He's married with five kids in Maine. He and his wife and three of their kids went on Vegas. in Canada, they were stopped, and they were told he can no longer return to the United States ever because 20 years ago, he had a minor pot arrest. And they said, well, he had a criminal record. Now, he paid the fine and the charges were ultimately dropped, but he paid like a minor fine at the time. And of course, we're talking about substance. that's decriminalized now, right? So you're talking about a crime that's not even a crime anymore.

But it's crazy. So anyway, with this ICE situation, they're being told that they're going to be, people can be who are not from places like Libya and South Sudan. Canada will be deported there. John, I had a thought about this that I don't think anyone else is brought up. So I think back to extraordinary rendition, something you know about.

Oh, yeah. So that's expensive, right? I mean, when you put like eight dudes on a plane and you send them to, like, Libya, how much does that cost? Yeah, a lot. And what do you spend them all to Harvard and, like, you know? Seriously. No, if you did that, you put a bunch of guys on a plane,

the flight is going to cost, I think, my information is dated, but it was like $180,000 for each plane load. to Guantanamo. It's got to be double that now. Yeah. I mean, it's, so it's really, like, it's purely about the cruelty and the optics, right? I mean, oh, yes. So the, so there's no assurance whatsoever that we used to have to get. Like, so just to so people understand the contrast here, right? So there were people who had been cleared for release from Guantanamo, who, however, like, for example, the Uyghurs, who were from China and should normally have been sent. back to their home country of China.

It couldn't be because they might face persecution or maybe even execution in China. So therefore they weren't. And then the U.S. government had to hold on to them until they could lobby another country. Like I know in the case of some of the Uyghurs, Albania took some of them. And it was like, oh, I know like Bermuda took some of them.

And it's like... No, it was Tahiti, Albania, and Switzerland. Okay. Little fun fact. I'm almost embarrassed to tell you, I captured those Uyghurs. And then I ended up doing an interview for a PBS documentary about the Uyghans. They had come across from Tora Bora. It was one of the first captures that I did.

We couldn't figure out who these guys were or where they were from because they couldn't respond to any of the languages that we had in the station. Like I spoke to them in English, in Arabic. I even tried Greek. We had a guy who'd speak Japanese. and then we had one old timer who said, I wonder if they're Uyghurs.

We had one of the local hires in the embassy. They were Eastman guys, right? Tajik, yeah. Well, no, that's what we thought. No? And it turned out there were just six idiots who were looking for work

and crossed the border. And then some Afghan said, oh, you should go to Torobora. There's work down there. And I said, bad advice after 9-11 you went to torabora and they were like yeah and i said you didn't know what was happening there and they were like what's 9-11 right i had i met people like that there yeah they didn't know i mean i'm on the converse side of that i mean i was on a bus in uh in

pakistani kashmir the northern areas as they called it i was dragged off the bus and the uh and And these Taliban guys said, like, don't you know about the prohibition against that Mullah Omar has issued against Americans in Taliban territory? And I'm like, this isn't Taliban territory. We're in Pakistan. It's like, well, Mullah Omar now says that this applies to this territory. And they were like, well, you must have known. And it was sort of the opposite, right? And I'm like, dude, I've been on a bus for a week in the middle of nowhere, right?

there's no movie there's no radio tv newspaper that's a close call for you ted you don't know anything yeah exactly we had to talk our way out of being of being shot to death right on right on site and it and you know it was just kind of like in the end it worked my friend was had such saint-froix that he literally slept through the whole thing he was bored i was like sorry you were bored while they were contemplating shooting us and he was like well he's like if i'm going to die i want to die well rest Wow. Yeah, that's a close call. It was a close call, for sure.

And, like, but I mean, yeah, so it's like that whole thing. Like, of course those guys, the Uyghurs didn't know shit about where they're. They're in the mountains, you know? It's like there's no news source. No. What I say that the Battle of Torobora was the defeat because some of bin Laden escaped. Yes. Yeah.

That was one of the, I think in the totality of American history, That was one of the stupidest decisions that any one of our military leaders ever made. Do you think about Osama bin Laden, you know, I think it was time or newsweek that reported that Osama bin Laden on 912 was in a military hospital in Islamabad, having his kidneys done. Was that total bullshit? Yeah, yeah. You know, we, for so long, we were getting intelligence on his kidneys, that he had kidney failure. He was getting dialysis in some caves.

somewhere, that he had Parkinson's disease, that he had Marfan syndrome. None of that turned out to be true. None of it. We used to get the same kind of reporting on Saddam Hussein. He was always on death's door from some dread disease all the time. He was perfectly healthy. So funny.

Yeah, I don't know how that. Well, as you know, South and Central Asia is a big rumor mill. People do love to gossip. Indeed. They love to make shit up. So, yeah, I mean, I guess the point here is, though, back then we didn't, even the Bush administration with extraordinary rendition and all that, they didn't send people to countries where they knew something bad might happen to them. Now, we will. We are doing that.

It's totally fine. Yes. Something might happen. They could be murdered. They could be killed. I mean, they could be tortured. They could be otherwise persecuted politically. That's totally fine.

And what's with sending people to active war zones? Libya and South Sudan. South Sudan. Are states. Yes. Yes. How this is legal, I have no idea, but the courts have decided that it is legal. The U.S. Supreme Court thinks it's fine.

A-okay. You guys go. I don't understand it. Is this one of those things that the court is saying, do you think, listen, we think it ought to be illegal, but it is legal? And someone ought to write a law? Do you think it's like that? Probably. Yes.

And nobody's got the guts or the wherewithal to write the law. Because nobody cares. I mean, nobody gives two shits about these people. No, sir. They don't. No, they don't. It's really grim. Well, there we're done.

All right. Thanks, everybody. Oh, yeah, Robbie are producers like laughing about the Obama, the Osama rumors. Putin has cancer. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. He's always had cancer.

All right. Well, I think we're done here. So, technically speaking, we're supposed to be on a Monday, Wednesday, Friday scheduled this week. However, we are not here Wednesday. We will be here Friday, 5 p.m. Eastern Time for D-Program with me, Ted Raul, and John Kariaku. Check us out online. Please, like, follow, and share the show. It really means the world to us.

We're broke. We need your help. Thanks a lot. Take care. Bye-bye.