DeProgram with John Kiriakou and Ted Rall - DeProgram with Ted Rall and John Kiriakou: “Are Furloughed Feds S.O.L.?”

Episode Date: October 8, 2025

Political cartoonist Ted Rall and CIA whistleblower John Kiriakou look at the Trump administration's plan to mint a $1 coin with the president's image, his messaging to furloughed government workers that they may forfeit back pay, Colorado's conversion therapy ban, and CIA Deputy Director Michael Ellis demotion of the acting general counsel—a career lawyer—and assuming the role himself.Trump $1 Coin Controversy: The Treasury Department defends minting a $1 commemorative coin bearing President Trump's image for the nation's 250th birthday, citing the 2020 Circulating Collectible Coin Redesign Act to override a 1866 law prohibiting living portraits on currency and quelling monarchic vibes. Draft designs show Trump's profile dominating the obverse, with the reverse side showcasing him fist-pumping before the American flag under "Fight, Fight, Fight.” This echoes Trump's past currency clashes, like delaying Harriet Tubman's $20 bill.Back Pay Dispute: President Trump says that furloughed federal workers—nearly 750,000 affected—might not receive back pay post-shutdown, contradicting the 2019 Government Employee Fair Treatment Act he signed and the Office of Personnel Management's explicit guidance promising retroactive compensation. A circulating White House memo argues that only essential employees like military and air traffic controllers qualify outright, requiring congressional approval for others, fueling union leaders' cries of legal misinterpretation and threats of lawsuits as the impasse hits day seven. Conversion Therapy: The Supreme Court's conservative majority signals opposition to Colorado's 2019 ban on conversion therapy for minors, viewing it as viewpoint-discriminating speech regulation during oral arguments in Chiles v. Salazar, where therapist Kaley Chiles claims First Amendment violations in her faith-based talk therapy. Justices like Alito and Roberts probe the state's conduct-versus-speech distinction, drawing parallels to 2018 anti-abortion center rulings and recent gender care bans, potentially invalidating similar prohibitions in over 20 states while liberals like Jackson question inconsistent deference. ProCIA Deputy Director's Power Grab: Michael Ellis abruptly demotes the acting general counsel—an unnamed career lawyer serving since January—and installs himself in the role, retaining his No. 2 position and prompting ethics red flags over inherent conflicts in self-advising on agency actions. This "bizarre" arrangement, approved by Director John Ratcliffe, unfolds amid Trump's nomination of Joshua Simmons for permanent counsel, whose Senate hearing looms Wednesday, while Ellis— a 40-year-old Yale Law alum and Trump loyalist—navigates past scandals like Nunes' surveillance briefings and Bolton memoir battles. Current and former officials voice alarms at the consolidation, violating professional conduct rules against self-interest judgments, as the demoted lawyer takes brief vacation.

I'm Ted Raul. You're watching Deep Program with Ted Raul and John Kiriaku. It's Wednesday, October 8th. Thanks for joining us. How's the weather holding up down there? It is holding up. It's extraordinarily windy. I called this Hurricane Horatio yesterday. It's not. It's Hurricane Priscilla. It was a big storm. We were fortunate in that it wasn't a terribly powerful one. It was a category two. It really messed things up. The winds were ridiculous. There was damage and, I mean, you know how hurricanes are. But I was most concerned personally about the roads being washed out.

It's a very, very rough road to get here. It's completely unpaved, very ruddy. You can't go more than 20 miles an hour. And you have to do it in a four by four. So I was afraid that the road would be washed out. and I wouldn't be able to get to the airport today because I'm going to be on the Joe Rogan show tomorrow in Austin, Texas.

And so the director of the film that I'm working in right now really did me a solid yesterday, and he sent two of the staff members in a four-by-four just to the next village, which is about 10 miles away. And they said that the road was crappy, but it was intact. So we're going to leave, not long after you and I finish this podcast. Oh, well, okay. Well, I wish you luck.

And, of course, you know, the fact that you're traveling kind of, you know, brings up one of our stories, which is the government shutdown. All across the country, we're having rippling delays. The air traffic control system was already in a lot of trouble and long neglected and very short-staffed. and very short-staffed. There's been lots of warnings about this. You know, short-staffing may have contributed to a number of fatal incidents over the United States, including that one in Washington. So ATC has been complaining about this for years.

Congress doesn't seem interested in fixing the problem, and now it's only worse because the air traffic controllers are either quitting outright or they're certainly taking vacations. And President Trump even intimated yesterday that federal workers, and he's not saying which ones, that some of them may not get back pay, those who are followed. And that's not what happened before. That can't have.

I mean, that's illegal, right? I mean, it's- You would think so, yeah. I mean, they're workers. I mean, I don't even care that they're federal workers. I mean, you know, if I hire an employee and then they, and then I just don't pay them after I agreed to pay them, well, obviously, I'm breaking the law. The problem is that, you know, what's the remedy for breaking the law? Not Sharia, where you can go to a court and get justice tomorrow morning.

It's like go and hire a lawyer, it costs money. The opposing side drags their fee. if the opposing side is the federal government, they have bottomless pockets and they can delay and they have laws written in their favor. And it's a nightmare. So, I mean, John, I wanted to, I really did want to. So I hope that, you know, you don't get affected by this

on your way to boost it. But I guess I wanted to ask you as a former federal worker for a long time, I mean, and who's, you know, lived in D.C., what is the effect on morale, on federal workers when something like this happens where basically the government, I mean, you know, let's go back to January, right?

The government, the president comes in. We have this doge thing. And basically he's like, I hate most of you guys. You guys aren't doing a good job. A lot of departments should be eliminated. A lot of workers should be fired. You have a lot of dead wood.

You bring in Elon Musk, who doesn't know what he's doing, to just fire people willy-nilly. So there's a total lack of appreciation. there's been very little like coming from the from the commander-in-chief saying we appreciate you we love you thank you for your no no no no and then and then i mean it's i mean you laugh when i say that the fact that you're laughing is like says it all right but that that's what he should be doing and then it's like you know it's been going on they've been demoralized they've been laid off it's

like there's been this yo-yo thing where people have gotten laid off and brought back and now they're being told, oh, yeah, you're being furloughed, which sucks hard enough because you're not getting paid for a while. But on top of that, you're being told now, oh, by the way, you may be shit out of luck if, you know, when we come back, because we're going to drag our feet on paying you. I mean, yeah, I know it's Trump bluster, and I don't think there's anything to come of it. I don't think it's true. But it's got to really be a bummer, yeah? Yeah, it is a bummer. You know, people, people aren't shocked by a government shutdown.

They're used to government shutdowns. They happen all the time every couple of years. There's one. They usually last a day or two or three. No big deal. But I was part of the government shutdown back in 90, well, the two government shutdowns back in 95 and 96 that were weeks. weeks long now for us we didn't so much care because i was working overseas at the time

my house was paid for my utilities were paid for my car was paid for i didn't have to worry about anything uh but for people who are living you know in the dc area let's say anywhere anywhere around the country where you're not getting some sort of a subsidy um it's it's tough and And I'll tell you, I'm smiling because, you know, on the one hand, I don't really give a shit. And on the other hand, I feel a little bit sorry. But people like prison guards. I was in, I was in prison about six weeks, and I broke my pinky finger working out. And so they had to take me out to an outside doctor.

And they put you in chains and shackles around your ankles and around your waist. It's humiliating. But I get in the van with these two guards and they're talking about the shutdown. And one of them says that he doesn't have enough money to last for the week. So if this is going to be a shutdown longer than a week that he's screwed. And I said, as if it was my business, I said, what GS grade are you? And he said, I just got my four. And I said, four, how do you feed yourself?

And he said, why? What were you? I said, I was a 15, and my wife was a 15, and we still had trouble making ends meet. Well, if you're a GS4 and you're making, you know, $35,000 a year, you can't go without a pay for weeks or for a month at a time. you're going to end up having your car repossessed. You're going to default on your credit cards. You may not even be able to make your payments on your utilities. So for Donald Trump to then say that he is actively and seriously considering just not paying people, the back pay, after forcing them out of work in the first place, this is going to crush morale, morale that's already fragile.

And I'll tell you what, in an unrelated incident that I'm going to connect to this, my morale is crushed today because I saw in the Washington Post that Herschel Walker, you remember Herschel Walker, that war who ran for the Senate several years ago. Georgia. And who beat his wife and beat his girlfriend and held guns to their heads. Yesterday was confirmed as U.S. ambassador to the Bahamas. Wow. 5147. All the Republicans voted. Yes. All the Democrats voted no. Yeah, no, that's, no, I mean, let's get, okay, so Herschel Walker's his own thing, but let's, let's, let's, like, linger a little bit on the, on the shutdown morale. Yeah. I mean, one thing it also, one effect that I think is, that people don't think about is, you know, going,

forward, these kind of things make people less likely to want to, young people to want to go work in the government, right? I mean, you know, government doesn't pay very well compared to the private sector, but at least, you know, people think, oh, if I work for the government, it's safe, it's steady, I get a, I get a paycheck on a regular basis, and it works, you know, it's totally, it's great to know that that's going to happen and in fact you know it looks like we've lost john here we'll see we'll let you know when he comes back we'll pop him right back in but you know he's a very unsteady signal down there in mexico so i'll pop in producer robbie as a substitute says i like having someone to talk to it's lonely you're here it it is lonely howdy robbie why don't you uh fill us in

remind people a little bit about what's going on while you're here and maybe if you have any thoughts about well tell me about your Thomas Massey thought about the shutdown and then we'll get into that well it's pretty neat because the the mega civil war basically stopped when Charlie Kirk was assassinated that is no longer the case it is back on with an absolute vengeance because the pro-Israel establishment wing in the GOP they've really overplayed their hand, they've reached too hard. And with Trump going out of his way to protect Epstein, even going as far as kind of hinting at maybe even doing a pardon for Gislane Maxwell, the backlash from my part

of the right is phenomenal. And you guys really think the shutdown is in whole or in part motivated by the desire to keep Thomas Massey from bringing this discharge position to a vote. Oh, absolutely. Oh, God, yes. I mean, the fact that he has all the Democrats and a sizable portion of actual America First conservatives, not keep in mind, they're in the Republican Party, but I mean, they are right wingers like I am. They want the Epstein client list out. They want they're going for the throat. They want blood. So yes, that is there's a reason why Johnson, before this even happened, he sent everyone home early to try to avoid this from happening. This is. They're a nightmare.

We talked about this here back in July when he did that. And, you know, I remember we all agreed that he was going, that this was not going to work, that Maguworld's memories are a little longer than that of a fly. We are not going to forget. And the thing is the fact that our tax dollars are being used to pay these salaries of pedophiles in government. Hey, pedophiles have not going to lose. has to eat, too. You know what?

Well, they can eat, they can eat in the hill as far as that the truck. The pedophilia industrial complex. Robin Philis said a little bit about the, sorry. Isn't that what Ted Cruz says? Can we just do the pedophiles alone? Can't he say that? Yeah, he said that. He did say that.

He did say that. Which makes me, of course, want to look at him, you know. Don't look at him. When someone says like, hey, don't worry about the pedophiles, you have to always. to be like, hmm. All right, so Robbie, fill us in a little bit about, you know, for people who are just joining and may have missed yesterday's show, what's going on with YouTube and Rumble and all that.

Okay, real quick. So the short and easy of it is that YouTube has demonetized your two favorite commentators who are respectfully on the right and the left of me, which is funny because I'm to the right of both of them, but I won't even go there. So if y'all like to support the show, there's a couple of different ways that you can do it. One way is that we do have a PayPal account set up

where people can just donate directly to the show. The other way that you can do at least right now. And thank you to those of you who've been doing that. We received a few donations yesterday, and we're very, very grateful to you guys. The PayPal for people who are listening and not watching is deprogrampodcast at gmail.com. That's deprogram podcast at gmail.

That is a huge help. And another, one of the biggest ways, honestly, that you can help us is by coming over to Rumble, because this show is a, is a Rumble partner. Rumble is actually, they've brought us into their creator program. The show is growing leaps and bounds, and I cannot thank y'all enough. And the way that Rumble pays us, in addition to ad revenue, which is how YouTube used to pay us, they actually will pay you based off watch hours. Plus, you can become channel subscribers on Rumble for only $5 a month. directly to deprogram and John and Ted keep every penny of that. Rumble does not take a, does not take a percentage.

They keep it all. And so not you able to support them that way. You also can see the premium content that's coming out, which part two of Ted's interview will be dropping today after the TMI show. So if you want to see exclusive content, you can't see anywhere else. Come over to Rumble. The weather's fine. Yes, there are a lot of whitewangers here like me, but I promise we don't bite.

Most of us are actually pretty nice guys. And I'd love to have you all here. Thanks, Robbie. All right. John, let's hope your signal holds together. So the morale, you know, so I mean, I guess, so I was saying people aren't going to want, young people aren't going to want to work for the federal government. I remember my father telling me the choice that he made as a young man between going to

work for the Air Force or going to work at Lockheed or some other private engineering company. And he said, well, the thing about the government is it was safer. Well, this doesn't feel safe, right? I mean, no, this isn't safer. I used to say the same thing. I used to say, well, you know, I don't have to worry about, like I remember early in my career not even paying attention to economic news because the federal government was immune from recessions.

And so if unemployment spikes, it didn't have any effect on me, so I didn't even pay any attention. Well, now you have to pay close attention. Look just as an example at air traffic. controllers. Everybody knows this is the most stressful job you can possibly have to be an air traffic controller. And the conditions are terrible and, you know, people have nervous breakdowns and whatever. And then on top of that, you're not going to get paid. I know. Mines would want to be an air traffic controller. No, it's insane. It's the only reason you're there. I mean, I guess there's probably

people who get off on the thrill of like, you know, the fast-paced move. It looks pretty exciting and fun. I don't know, man. The closest job I ever had to that was a stock trader. And that I did. I miss it all the time because I had that personality. I mean, four o'clock, the close of the market would come like instantly. You know, the day would just fly by, which I love. But still, yeah, you're right.

If you're not getting paid, why the fuck are you there? Exactly right. Why is Donald Trump doing this? I mean, I'm asking you to climb into psychoanalyze our president. Why? I think he sees this as a traditional political pissing match, that there's going to be a winner and there's going to be a loser. And he wants to be the winner. But in reality, that's just not the case. What this is is a Congress that is unable or unwilling to do its most basic job. Like if there's one single thing that Congress has to accomplish, it's to pass a federal budget and they can't even do that they're they're so worried about you know god forbid somebody should set a flag on fire we need to legislate that or wait a minute israel may need several more billion dollars we better send that or we need to get all these unqualified people pushed into

office we we should take care of that the budget people all you have to do is pass a budget did you You know, we have not passed a budget before the constitutional deadline since 1995. I just looked this up. Unsurred. Congress has not passed a budget. It's like it reminds me of my college classmates who, you know, could never, ever, ever, you know, turn in a paper on time. It's like, you know, half our conversations were like, I went to beg for an extension. I'd be like, I never got an extension once.

I mean, you know, I knew when it was due and I turned it in. It's a psychological block for people. Yeah, I agree. Thank you very much to double D37-8-9-6442 as opposed to 441. Thank you very much for the gifting that donation over on Rumble, much appreciated. To recue is nudging you, John. Don't forget to plug this show on Rogan, although I think, well, you know, that's a little tricky, but I'm going to try. I'm told that he's funny about stuff like that.

Right. But I'm going to try. Although it's kind of funny, right? I mean, it's kind of like, you know, he has this massive show. And, you know, I guess it's a different person. It's kind of like, well, I just want this to be in my ecosystem and I don't want to talk about other stuff. And I get that. I can see what.

But, you know, I remember, like, listening to. to Kurt Cobain and other members of Chris Nova Seleck and on like a radio station in San Francisco. And this was early on. It was right when Nevermind broke. And they were like, oh, so during the interview, the DJs, like, oh, we're going to play some tracks from Nevermind. And Kurt goes, no, no, no, everybody's already heard our stuff.

Everyone knows our stuff. We're huge. We play stadiums. So we brought some CDs by some of our favorite, like obscure bands who we think are awesome. And like one of them I remember was the Vaseline's. and so there were a couple of Japanese girl bands and the Yay Yayas and people like that.

And they played them. And it was just like literally that kind of action elevated those bands. And it was really cool. It is cool. It's like you can take credit for discovering these people. Totally. Recognizing talent or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like Sherwood Anderson discovered Ernest Hemingway and got him his first book deal. And then later, Sherwood Anderson, and then, you know, Ernest Hemingway didn't like the idea of being overshadowed by Daddy Sherwood. So he, like, broke with them and insulted him. A movable feast is actually Hemingway's satire and parody and send-up of Sherwood Anderson. That's tough.

Let's see here. Bustello Matsurati said, I boycotted Rumble. I deem them un-American, L-O-L. All right, well, you too, you. But, you know, and hopefully YouTube will be up and running. But just so you know, your watch minutes, hours, whatever, go about a quarter of the way on YouTube. When YouTube is working, which right now it's not, it's not a political thing. We're going to work out this YouTube thing, just so you guys know.

But it's, but they're really squirly, and it's a really annoying company. And to think that this multi-trillion dollar corporation, you know, Alphabet is basically getting free work from John and I is galling, you know, it's really, really annoying. So anyway. You know, there's another connection to Rumble in the news today that you and I were going to talk about it. I don't know if you realized it. But there's a little bit of a kerfuffle taking place over at the CIA. The deputy director of the CIA guy by the name of Ellis fired the acting general counsel and decided to name himself as general counsel something ted here is calling where is it right there a power grab that's exactly what it is it's power grab um but who is this ellis uh i

michael ellis yeah he used to be the general counsel at rumble and oh wow yeah he's he's a long time republican activist he's the first millennial ever to be the deputy director of the cia he's He's only 41 years old. That makes me feel like an underachiever, let me tell you. But then when you get into his career, you realize, no, everything was handed to him politically. So he's a smart guy. He went to Princeton or Dartmouth. The guy he said went to Dartmouth.

Then he went to Yale Law School. He volunteered in the George W. Bush 2004 campaign. He volunteered for John McCain. He volunteered for Romney. He went to the Heritage Foundation. He's one of these activist Republicans. And then he was all in with Trump. He ended up being counsel to Devin Nunes.

Then he was counseled to the Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee. Then he went to the National Security Council. He was senior director for legal affairs at the National Security Council. And then, and I forgot this. but he was named general counsel of NSA. The head of NSA at the time said absolutely not. He's unqualified. Somebody sued and a court found that he was qualified.

But then the day that Biden took office, the head of NSA suspended him. And he resigned. So he's qualified. He's an attorney. He's been general counsel of a lot of different things. He's experienced in national security affairs. He's just really, really MAGA.

And I think that's what's making people angry. Wow. So, I mean, it's always weird, right? Like in official Washington, it doesn't, it feels kind of, not anti, but it feels kind of un-American when one person assumes multiple jobs, you know, kind of like when Trump appointed himself director of the Kennedy Center or, you know, or Henry, right, when Henry Kissinger had two or three jobs in the Nixon administration all at the same time.

Oh, yeah, big jobs. Big jobs. And you're kind of like, you know, you're a czar at this point, right? Literally, they call you that. And, I mean, I don't know. Look, you're much more familiar with the inner workings than the federal government than I ever will be, John. I mean, is that more efficient?

I mean, or it just seems like these are all big full-time jobs that would be hard for a person to fulfill one of them, much less too, right? Yeah, it is not possible. Or Marco Rubio, for example, to be both Secretary of State and National Security Advisor, just like it was not possible for Henry Kissinger to do both of those jobs. the national security advisor is the overall head of foreign intelligence and defense policy so how in the world are you going to be the secretary of state implementing foreign policy traveling to 110 countries 120 countries over the course of four years and run intelligence policy and defense policy as well the national

security adviser, over the course of my experience, most national security advisors, not just met with the president every single morning, but sat in on the president's daily brief every single morning and then sat in on every presidential meeting that had anything to do with foreign affairs, defense, or intelligence. You can't, I mean, that's, that's a job that's too big for one man and then you're going to be the secretary of state on top of it not what what's the thinking here is it ego is it just a stopgap measure it'll temporarily to be resolved or even as a stopgap measure it shouldn't be used you need somebody that's going to be in that job more than full time you know it's it's so just fill the job yeah yeah just fill the job or make an acting national security

advisor like you know trump always has elevate a lieutenant right to yeah sure exactly there are a lot of people in washington who could do it so just name somebody um well we're talking about ego seems like we don't have to spend much time on this but i we yesterday we were talking a little bit about design of currency and stamps and stuff so so a lot of people so as a coin collector myself So a lot of people may not be aware. Of course, obviously there's the coins that are in your pocket that you get back as change, less and less so as cash disappears from our consumer economy. But there's the U.S. Mint produces something called commemorative coins.

And they'll be denominated, let's say, there used to be commemorative quarters. There was a long line of commemorative half dollars. And now there's commemorative dollars inflation. And they're typically, like, very pretty. They're not meant for general circulation, but they are official coinage of the United States mint. They are, you could theoretically go to a store with a dollar commemorative coin and pay for something, even though the clerk would be like, what the fuck is this? Yeah, exactly. But you could do it.

And some of the commemorative coins, it's just like an extra, you know, it's kind of cool. It's also like four collectors. And a lot of these actually appreciate really well in value because they have limited runs. Anyway, the Treasury Department is planning at the behest of a certain someone to mint a $1 commemorative coin with the picture of none other than our fearless leader, Donald Trump. There's fist in the air after getting it. That's on the reverse side with his, and it says fight, fight, fight. And there's his holding his fist pump.

And on the front, on the front, which is called the obverse in when you collect coins, it just shows him just a profile picture. I hope they slim him down, ozumping him a little bit, because a side view would be not maybe the most flattering. Anyway, the thing is, there's a law, and probably most Americans kind of just suss this out, living people can't be on coins or dollars. It's been like this pretty much forever since 1866. I mean, there wasn't much coinage before 1866, so really for most of the history of American coinage.

But in 2020, something called the Circulating Collectible Coin Redesign Act passed. Now, Trump is basically saying, I want this coin out in honor of next year, the, I cannot pronounce this word, but the 250th, you know, the Cesquicentennial. Yeah, right. something anyway the 250th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence is next year and Trump wants his own personal coin and he's very interested in like mint politics right like the hair under going back quite some time at least to Obama there have been plans to scrap Andrew Jackson from the $20 bill and put Harriet Tubman on there instead and basically this got delayed and the first Trump had been

administration. Biden sort of tried to revive the process. How hard is it to fucking make a picture of Harriet Tubman? But anyway, the point is they've been dicking around, and now Trump is, again, like dragging his feet on Harriet. So he's really, I mean, I know it's silly, but it really is, I mean, the man's ego knows no bounds. It's pretty incredible. To approve of the minting of a commemorative coin honoring yourself is I don't even bashy yeah that's right I mean I don't think even Saddam Hussein was on the coins in Iraq was he he was on the paper money oh on all of them all of it yeah so okay so it's like Saddam you know I remember one thing Saddam Hussein did I was a I was a new analyst at the time and they were rebuilding they had a team of archaeologists in Iraq rebuilding the ziggurat of ore, right?

You know, the cigarette? Yeah. And he demanded that every brick be stamped with his name, Saddam Hussein. Oh, my God. And he also ordered that all the bricks face inward. So you couldn't see him from the outside, but that would ensure that they last another 3,000 years. Well, I guess the bricks are in there, right?

Was the Ziggurat of Er, the model for the biblical story of the Tower of Babel? Yeah. Yeah, because it's Babylonian, right? The Ziggurat of Er. Did he do a good job? You know, like with those renovations, you know, when they redo historical monuments. Like sometimes they do a really classy job. Like Saint-Alo in Normandy is beautiful the way they rebuilt it.

It's like it was like Kalkasan in France, beautiful, the walled, circular walled city. But sometimes they do a shit version and, you know, it's all crapped up. How did they do it? Did you see it? This looks, yeah, this looks like the Masonic temple in Alexandria, Virginia. That answered that question. You know, one of the sad points. by the way, of the fact that Libya became a failed state.

Thank you, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. I was dying to go see the Roman ruins because, I mean, apparently some of the best preserved Roman ruins in the world are in Libya. Yes. Because of the desert climate. That's right. That's exactly right. And that's exactly why I wanted to go to Libya, too.

I had a friend at the agency who volunteered to do an analyst overseas position in Libya after already having done one in Delhi and one in Beirut. He's the only person ever to have three, which I don't know how he ever got permission. But anyway, he went to Libya just so that he could go to the ancient Roman ruins. Not for any other reason. He had no interest in Libya or Libyan affairs, but he slogged it out for two years just so that he could go and see the ruins.

Apparently the bazaar in Tripoli used to be amazing too. There was like a, I don't know if it's a covered bizarre, like they have in Istanbul or... I'm hoping you take me to the, to the, what was it, summer kind? Tolkuchka in, that's in Ashgabat. That's Ashgabat, yes. Yeah, that's summer. I'm dying to go. Yeah, I know.

There's stuff there. You just can't get anywhere else. I have my, I'm drawing a bead on, I want one of these crazy shaggy kyrgy's carpets. So, which I regret not having gotten in the first place. All right, let's answer some questions. Ludwig Double D wants to know. What's our take on Mike Pompeo in a post-Trump era, worst? Yeah.

Worst director. Yeah. One of the worst ever, yes. A man for whom the rule of law meant literally nothing. That's bad. You know, may I add one thing? Do we have a moment? Please.

You'll remember that it was Mike Pompeo who declared WikiLeaks to be a hostile non-state intelligence service. He did that for a very specific legal reason that just went right over the heads of the mainstream media, including the big ones like the Post and the Times. The reason he did that is because if the CIA is going after a non-state entity, There's an obscure law saying that they don't have to inform the congressional oversight committees when they carry out a covert action operation against that organization. And so I'm convinced that the plan was in place to assassinate Julian Assange, and that was the way they could legally do it without having to tell the committees. I'm convinced of that, too, actually. I think that they definitely wanted to do that.

I mean, by the way, I mean, I'm going to spring this. on you because it happened to be a couple like last week I live in an apartment building in New York City I was going to ask you is gaslighting a real thing like in in in espionage I go do my laundry I go downstairs to I had a pile of laundry in my bag and right when I got downstairs to get the stuff that was drying on top of my laundry there was a Katari coin what one little low denomination 50 whatever it's 50 cents I guess yeah yeah a little little like about the size of a dime yeah guitary coin and you know I was like now okay Katari coin I mean you know look it's New York City people travel

they can you know coins bounce around and you know people are in the laundry room but it was on top of so maybe someone just found it on the floor and was like oh, this must have been yours. But I was like, but it's Qatari. And given everything, you know, given who I am, given what's going on in the world, I was wondering if this is like a, hey, hey, Ted, is this a message? Or is this just just a, just a Qatari coin is just a Qatari coin? Well, gaslighting is a thing.

And that's just, that's just weird. Isn't it weird? I'd like to think that somebody just found this coin on the ground and just put it up there. Like, oh, I don't want this coin, but maybe this guy does. Yeah, I'm going to think that. And by the way, I think I'm not the, by the whole idea of gaslighting to me is silly. It would just make me laugh. Like in the movie, it wouldn't make me go crazy.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I would just be like, no, an asshole broke in here and moved my lap. Yeah, there was somebody in my life to whom I used to be very, very close. And she would always say, I am not cheating on you. I am not cheating on you. You know what?

You are mentally ill. Oh my God. You are mentally ill. You're imagining all of this. Of course. Yeah, well, you know, so I don't know if I've ever told you about Rawls' theorem, right? So, you know, Tony Morrison's famous line, right? Like if someone tells you who they are, believe them.

My version of that has always been, if someone volunteers that they have a certain personality trait, if they say it, like not like, so if I ask you, John, hey, are you? you a good tipper, you can say like, you know, if you say yes, that doesn't not apply to what I'm talking about. This is more like if I say, by the way, John, I'm a great tipper. If I just bring this up and like, you know, we're at a restaurant, then you know I'm exactly the opposite. I'm a chief skate. If someone says like, oh, I'm like, I'm great in bed, then like, and if someone says, if someone says, by the way, because people who are great in bed is just are great in bed and they don't talk about it.

And then if someone says, by the way, I am not, I don't cheat on my taxes. Oh, they're going to prison soon. If they say, like, I'm not cheating on you. Oh, my God. It's like, look out, you know. Ted, I did a podcast interview a couple of weeks ago. And yesterday, the legal advisor to the Israeli foreign minister wrote about my interview and said that I'm a virulent anti-Semite.

Oh, please. Viralant anti-Semite. Of course. And it got worse and worse and worse, that I'm an example of intellectual rot that's taking place in the United States. And the first comment when this was published was that he's stupid, obese, and ugly, too.

Your mother's fat. Like, yeah, great. Thank you. Glad I'm not having to have. this intellectual debate. Wow. What a genius. That's just great. Yeah. Well, speaking of a crazy over-the-top rhetoric, right before we went on, breaking news, I'm sure you saw this on your phone do. Trump suggested that the mayor of Chicago and the governor of Illinois both ought to be imprisoned for resisting ICE in Chicago. Nice. So that's charming. Imprisons. Yes. Hey, let me ask you a question, and it's a serious question. How long do you think it's going to be before someone takes up

arms, whether it's against the National Guard or ICE or these guys with their faces covered and no badges on? Somebody is going to fire a shot, and you know it's coming. Yes. No, I think 100% as an individual, I think we're looking at a matter of weeks, maybe, maybe a couple of months, right? I mean, I don't know that we'll see like an armed militia resistance movement. I mean, I think that's like a little bit outlandish. But in, I mean, certainly, yeah,

someone's going to take a shot at these ice guys. I mean, look, I mean, even I personally, you know, when I gut check myself, when I think of like those ice guys, I see them on social media. Today, there was a, you know, the White House sent out video

of Secretary Christie Nome praying without ICE officers for their safety and hoping that Jesus Christ would personally protect them in their performance of their duties. And I'm like thinking, well, first of all, I guess fuck separation of church and state, right? So ice goons can't be non-Christian. Ice goons can't be atheist. I guess maybe, and I won't get into the fact that they're not really Christian.

But the point is that like, it's so gross. And so this, the right is pouring on the, you know, the right sauce so heavy and so fast. And these guys are behaving so recklessly and violently and cruelly. I mean, it's just, I mean, it's got me boiling mad. And there's no way I'm alone. So, yeah, someone who's not as calm as me is going to do something bad. Exactly right. It's coming. There's no doubt.

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We should talk about conversion therapy. So conversion therapy is obviously the way that transgender people, basically physically manifest their transition. And so anyway, there's a Colorado and a bunch of, at least over 20 other red states all have bans on conversion therapy for minors. Started in Colorado, I think. But anyway, it's Colorado's case that's before SCOTUS right now. A case called Charles v. Salivar or Chile's versus Salivar. A therapist said, basically as the plaintiff here, says that it's a violation of her faith-based talk therapy, and she's claiming it's a free speech violation.

Looks like Supreme Court is likely to strike the conservative majority is going to join with the liberals and maybe unanimously or close to unanimously strike down these laws. I was a little surprised by this, John. Me too. I was surprised. I actually had to read the first couple of paragraphs of the art. article twice because I thought maybe I wasn't understanding it. But yeah, this, this surprises me. And it's not just relative to trans people.

It goes deeper to, you know, those church camps where you send your kid if your kid is gay so they can de-gay them. Yeah, preach the gay right out of them. Yeah. Yeah, good luck with that. Poor people. Geez, oh, man. So, I mean, so, yeah, I mean, the thing is, I'm really torn about conversion therapy for minors. I mean, I would be very disturbed if I had a 12-year-old kid, and, you know, this kind of stuff was happening at school, and I didn't know. Oh, your kids identify, your boys identifying as a girl. Everyone knows. You didn't know. Sorry, you didn't know. and we're not going to tell you, even though you're the parent. On the other hand, like, what if I'm going to beat my kid when he slash she comes home?

So, I mean, it's really complicated. I do have issues with the hormone and the physical, you know, the idea that, you know, like changing your genitalia before you turn 18. Hormones, I mean, the hormones really affect you. I mean, we know that hormones are a huge part of, you know, of your life. Life is a teenager, you're, they develop your bones and all that. I mean, like if you, like even like even my cat, okay, like when I got my cat, I asked my vet, you know, do I have to get him neutered? And he said, well, if you don't, he's going to spray all over the place.

And but if you wait as long as possible, the bones of your cat are going to set better and he'll live longer and he won't have arthritis. And he'll have that sort of leopard like swagger that like, you know, that, you know, that, a cat can have a male cat can have and he does he has that sort of like the haunches and he's like you can tell he's got better muscle tone than like a cat who's been a male cat that's been fixed as a kitten which is what they do at like shelters and stuff which is part of the reason i don't want a shelter cat and if that and that's true about mammals right i mean if you if you mess with someone's hormones you know when they're 13 14 15 years old i mean it is going to have effects outside and not to mention like what if they change their mind later i don't know but i don't

want them to commit suicide either because they're not like they're true living their true self yeah you know i mean it's it's a it's a michigas that i don't i can't really address you know yeah yeah i agree this is this is tough for everybody it really is but i have to agree with you if you can't if you can't well robbie makes a point if you You can't buy a gun. You can't drink alcohol. You can't rent a car. You can't, right.

You can't rent a car. You can't serve in the military. You can't serve in the military. Then you should not be put off your generals. Yeah. No. Yeah. I mean, I do think, look, there was a time, as my ex-wife used to always like to say,

where a 12 or 13-year-old boy could stake a claim in the West. but we don't live in that society anymore right i mean we you know now i mean in an american kid isn't really an adult until they're like 30 right you know your brain your brain's not fully formed till you're 25 yeah yeah that's right so yeah i mean i mean i kind of feel like if you need to do this i mean you know maybe it's like look it's going to be you're going to have to express Here's a question. It just crossed my mind. If this procedure, if the physical procedures are not available for anyone until they turn 18,

might there not be kind of like the solitary side effect for people who want and need to transition, that knowing that no one who's in their position can do it until they're 18. You know what I mean? It's like the idea that some kids, oh, well, they live in Massachusetts, the liberal state. They're 14. They can do it. But because I live in the Texas panhandle, I can't do it, and I have to live this miserable life. I mean, maybe sometimes it's good for government to regulate these things.

Yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, it's kind of like abortion, really. You can have an abortion in Virginia. You can't have one in West Virginia. You can have one in Pennsylvania, but you can't have one in Ohio. So, I mean, this is that never-ending debate between states' rights and federal authority, I guess. Someone's mad at us. That doesn't happen here much.

But we don't have a problem with it. Hope Loudon, 6371. Yeah, I'm out. Not going to listen to you bash gender affirming care when you're misrepresenting the Supreme Court case. Fact-check yourself and apologize. Well, I'm willing to fact-check, you know, certainly. but agree with me or else Ted apologize it's like look here let's let's be serious here right I mean the point is we're human beings John and I do our best we read the news

voraciously and we check everything out very carefully but the fact is we're going to make mistakes you know and you hear us literally make mistakes in real time and what we try to do is we fix them. We'll be like, by the way, yesterday we said, blah, blah, blah, I was wrong or whatever. So if that's, I will look at this in more detail overnight and, you know, chime in tomorrow. And maybe, John, I know you're, you're busy today. But the point is, but the point is, I mean, you know, that's a thing, right? Like, yeah, the apologize, you wretched fuck.

I mean, that's ridiculous. How about just like, hey, you guys are wrong, you know, check out this link. You know, and then you'll see, I mean, I'm fine being wrong. It's like, it always bugged me that newspapers are so reluctant to publish retractions. I think a media organization that, you know, expresses itself and frequently admits that it makes mistakes, has more credibility with me. Totally agree. So. Totally agree.

You know, I saw, I subscribed to Wine Spectator. magazine i have for years even though i don't drink very much wine at all i just left reading about the the growing areas and the different tasting reports anyway there was a in the most recent issue i have it right over there uh there was a correction and the correction was that this they said last month that this one um vintage was five thousand three hundred and forty bottles but it wasn't it was 5,640 bottles. That's awesome. I love it.

Apologize. I loved it. That is awesome. That's really kind of awesome, John. I love that. Yeah. I thought so, too. God.

Yeah, no, it's like, you know, and by the way, I just have to say, some of the most prickly people in, in like American politics are trans activists. I mean, truly like pleasant in the public sphere. You know, when I've said things that like crossed, or actually this was kind of hilarious to me, every now, like maybe twice or three times in my entire career, I've done cartoons

that referenced asexuals. And at one, I remember one time like on X, or maybe it was back in the Twitter days, I was like saying, oh, you know, Asexuals are kind of like not, you know, they were claiming the right to be part of the LJBTQ Plus community. And I'm like, you guys aren't part of any sex-related community. You don't have, you don't even not only do you not have sex.

You don't even have sexual desire. Okay. So you are to sex as I am to football. I don't watch football and I don't know anything about football. I know the rules. That's it. And like, so it's like, so you're just not part of it. By the way, that would be a blessing to not be,

not to have any sexual drive. You'd think about how much more you'd get done and how much less distraction you'd have. But anyway, they got so angry. There's a whole massive online asexual community. They're called ACEs, and they, and they're so furious about it. It's like, we don't, we're not into sex. Okay, don't be into sex.

Good for you. I don't have any problems with you at all. I'm not, I don't want, no one should discriminate against you. No one does. Like, no one's ever said, fuck those asexuals. They're ruining America. You know, I, I take heat sometimes, and I know that you do too, from people who say, why aren't you talking about X, Y, Z issue?

And I say, why aren't you talking about the Turkish occupation of Cyprus? I haven't heard you condemn it once yet. Right, right, right. Because it's like, because it's like, it's a, it's a, it's. Well, and it's so, it's so sophomoric, right? I mean, like, nowadays, I have, you know, like when some of the revelations have come out, confirming just how senile Biden was.

People are like, you shouldn't be talking about that. You should be talking about how senile Trump is. And I'm like, okay, because Biden's not president anymore. Yeah, but when he was president, you wouldn't admit that this was true. So when do we ever get to talk about it, right? never if you have your way yeah it's annoying let me add one thing i know we only have a couple of minutes left but james combe uh is in court right now in the eastern district of virginia a place i know well

unfortunately where he is in the course of pleading not guilty to federal crimes of course he is so i mean obviously john his best play here is delay delay delay delay, right? I mean, that it is. It's October 2025. He's waiting for January 21st, 2029. That's right. For the atmosphere to change and hopefully get a Democratic president. That's exactly right. But you know what? That could that could be difficult, even in a case as complicated as mine. I was arrested in January. It was done by October. they used to they used to call it the rocket docket in the eastern district of virginia because everything moves so quickly there yeah but i agree with you his strategy has to be to delay

delay delay yes and then just hope a democrat is elected president and dismisses the charges do you think that's i mean i think i can't even begin to think what the 2028 election is going to look like It's so far away. I mean, no, we don't even, we can't even, we could speculate, but only in the most general terms who might be thinking of running for president right now. I mean, obviously Gavin Newsom. Yeah, definitely. And, uh, J.B. Pritzker, I think, is running for vice president.

Sure. He would be a decent choice of vice president. Josh, what's his face in Pennsylvania? Josh Shapiro ain't never going to be. anything with what happened in Gaza he's done forget it and he served in the in the freaking IDF I could never ever ever vote for somebody who has served in a foreign military I could never support I could never vote for someone who enthusiastically supported genocide I mean agreed 100% no no doubt about it right ridiculous yeah all right John we're going to be back

tomorrow at 9 a.m. Eastern time and we're here Monday through Friday 9th a.m. Eastern time. Please like, follow, and share the show. If you'd like to support the show so that we can keep doing it, you know, and we're working out the kinks here, but over on YouTube, but still, in the meantime, just to sort of keep the, you know, keep the, keep the bills paid as much as possible. If you can see your way clear to sending some lucre over to deprogram podcast at gmail.com we would be much appreciative thanks to producer robbie we were uh and please watch us on rumble if you're not already doing that five dollars a month gets you to watch this show and the rumble premium content um and with my interview of john john's interview with me and john

i'll see you tomorrow have happy filming thanks buddy talk to you from texas okay Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.