DeProgram with John Kiriakou and Ted Rall - Sloppy Russian Spies | DeProgram with Ted Rall and John Kiriakou

Episode Date: December 5, 2025

LIVE 9:00 am Eastern time, Streaming Anytime:Political cartoonist Ted Rall and CIA whistleblower John Kiriakou deprogram you from mainstream media every weekday at 9 AM EST. Today we discuss: • The death from exposure to a rare, military-grade nerve agent called a Novichok in Britain of Dawn Sturgess, 44 and a British mother of three, seven years ago, illustrates the consequences of letting spies run amok. A perfume bottle containing the poison had been discarded by a pair of Russian operatives after using it in an attempted assassination months earlier. A new report blames Putin. • Zelensky’s government systematically sabotages oversight, creating the perfect opportunity for corruption. Ukraine has stacked oversight boards with loyalists, leaves seats empty or stalled them from being set up at all. Leaders in Kyiv even rewrote company charters to limit oversight, allowing hundreds of millions of U.S. dollars to be stolen. • Congress is focusing on two deaths in one boat strike. But 9 other people died in that same attack, and the United States has killed 87 in all. Were any of those killings legal? • 55% disapprove/42% approve of Trump’s job performance. Much of his loss is among political independents; 31% approve, down from 41% in July. The president has also lost support among men, particularly white, college-educated men. Can he right the ship?Chicago Tribune cartoonist Scott Stantis fills in for John today.

Good morning, everyone. Thanks for joining us. You're watching D-Program with Ched Rall and John Kariaku. Sitting in in the John chair is editorial cartoonist for the Chicago Tribune. Scott Stantis, Scott, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Thanks for filling in. John will be back on Monday. We're here Monday through Friday, 9 a.m. Eastern time. John's nothing terrible. He's attending a funeral. but it's for an elderly relative. You know, I always think that it's funny when we think, well, you know, it's not a tragedy because they lived to be old. But, you know, you miss them more if they lived to be old because you knew them longer.

You think? I mean, I'm just saying it's worth considering that possibility, unless you got sick of them because you knew them for so long and you're like, bye. Well, that plus, you know, dementia and other things, which you and I have both dealt with. I mean, that can be actually a blessing when they, it can be, I mean, or at least a mercy. Let's put it that way. Some people, it's a blessing, you know.

It's not always bad when people die. Okay, so that's dark. Anyway, thanks to everyone. Please like, follow, and share the show. Please continue. So we did achieve our $1,000 for Robbie Aid. Thank you, everyone, for getting us to $1,000. We do that.

every month in order to keep our producer who we you know as you guys know very much we really need Robbie will be in the background and starting about half an hour he's got something to do this morning if you would like to uh you know kick in and tip it doesn't hurt he can use the money he's still you know this is his job now go fund me dot com slash f slash deep program Robbie or you just go to go fund me and search for deprogram Robbie as one word um thanks for everything uh okay so lots going on um we're going to go over this report that came out of the UK that's blaming President Putin of Russia for that 2018 poisoning of a 44-year-old British woman. We'll get into the details there. Also, the New York

Times has a new report about how the corruption in the Zelensky government and exactly how it works. And, you know, it's not a big secret, but the how is kind of somewhat interesting. So we'll get into that. Obviously, all eyes right now are focused on the Pete Hegseth, career death watch, will he survive the media, the Friday afternoon, Sunday, a Saturday morning, traditional media dump when resignations and firings occur at times like this? If he's still DOD chief by Sunday morning, I'd say he's safe for the time. DOW, Ted. That's right. That's right. Although it's not formally that. So I'm still going to call him the sec death, whether he likes it or not. I mean, he might drone me. That could happen. But, you know, like on the air, at least I'd get ratings.

for once. And new pull-out, Trump's disapproval rating is continuing to increase. Can the Republicans save their asses? Lots of questions in the YouTube chat to get through before we start these things. And also,

as if that wasn't enough action-packed deprogramming for you today, there's breaking news. You guys probably, if you have a phone, you've already seen it. Netflix has just committed to purchase Warner brothers, the legendary film studio, but they also have a bunch of other properties, including

Max, which HBO Max, which was HBO. Then it became Mac. That was HBO Max. So that sounds like I just think of MaxiPad every time I hear it. Yeah, me too. $83 billion. Obviously there are antitrust implications here. I know, Scott, you have thoughts about that. And let me just say that I can't speak for John, but I think I can on this instance and say that if Netflix wants to buy this podcast for half that amount, I have to believe that even socialist Ted Rawl

would have to say yes. Well, we do live in a capitalist system. So until the revolution comes, as Jean-Paul Sartre said, we must all live with the system that we have. So, yes, you are correct. All right, let's do some questions. Then we'll get to our first topic.

And Scott, you can think of what you want to talk about first because the order is not really that important. Okay, so Elliot Cover-T, thank you very much for this question. With Ukraine appearing to be on its last legs and Russia poised for victory, have Western elites learned anything about how to conduct prudent foreign policy since 2022? This will be a short answer, Scott. I'm sorry, Ted and I've been talking about this for years. And the problem is, you know, initially I was very much in support of Ukraine because they were invaded. Nobody likes to be invaded. However, now that this has gone on, you can't keep calling something a democracy if it doesn't have, you know, democracy. So in this instance, the report on

the corruption is no surprise because Zelensky has shut down all opposition. He's shut down all elections. And when you do that, well, you've opened the gates, the floodgates for all sorts of mischief. And I mean, this is, Ted, you cannot, of all people, Ted Rawl cannot be surprised. No, no. And we'll be getting into the Zelensky corruption story. But I mean, you know, have the, have the U.S. policymakers learned anything? No. Clearly not. I mean, look at what's going on now. We'll be talking about the Venezuela situation. But, you know, Venezuela, the approach to Venezuela makes the neo-con attack on Afghanistan and Iraq look positively professional by comparison. I mean, they're not even bothering to message the American people about it.

And the legal structures are as flimsy as a jenga game right before the very end, right? I mean, it's completely insane. So, no, they haven't learned anything. Another question from Mederasian. I'm sorry if I mispronounce that. I'm curious about your perspectives on the Arab Spring. What role did Obama and the CIA play? Why and how did Egypt fall in 2012?

Well, the Arab Spring, of course, started in Tunisia with the overthrow of Ben Ali. And, of course, the fall of Hosni Mubarak in Egypt was a big part of it. Look, the CIA played a huge role in the overthrow. The Ben Ali thing, less so. But in terms of Egypt, you know, the CIA, the U.S. called Mubarak and said, you've got to step down. And basically, you know, Egypt was a client state. I mean, this, by the way, I like, this is one of my favorite rant.

I always say, you can't have a nonviolent revolution. And the, you know, Tahrir Square and the overthrow of Mubarak was largely a peaceful affair. I mean, not to say that there was no violence or anything. In fact, I know a woman, a reporter who was there for Al Jazeera in Tahr Square, and she was raped in Tahrir Square, okay, so by gross guys who were there. So it's not like there was no violence, but, I mean, it was not a revolution, right? As you and I both know it from history. And what do you get out of that?

You end up with Al-Cisi, who is no completely the same as Mubarak. He's exactly the same. It comes out of the, you know, the dictator, the dictator factory out of central Ohio. We'll introduce these guys. Hey, I lost your audio for some reason. and I'm going to jump off and then jump back on, okay? Okay, just, yeah, yeah, maybe you can switch to your phone or whatever. I apologize for this technical glitch.

Okay, that's totally fine. Okay, so as Scott Stantis tries to get his get back in, and I'll put him back in right away, this happened yesterday on the DMZ America podcast, so I have a feeling that Scott needs to call his tech people. But anyway, thank you, thank you F you so for the dollar donation. Sloppy Russian Spies, which is the title of today's broadcast, sounds naughty. Yeah, it kind of does. That was kind of like my, that was my duty.

Scott, do you hear me now? I do, and I apologize for that. Great, yeah, no worries. You know, these things happen all the time, unfortunately. Comment that I think is worth mentioning from Triple J, XYZ. The peasants are sent to the meat grinder while the elite enjoy caviar in a Swiss village, courtesy of U.S. and EU taxpayers, of course. oh yeah that's always been the case i mean i'm trying to think it was oh yeah the presidents of

mexico i think there are more ex-presidents and former presidents of mexico in connecticut than there are actually in mexico and i think that's that's a fact um they don't stick around they get their lugar and they move on and so yeah zelenski's going to be in switzerland didn't you say there's um yeah he has several places he has a yeah place in lecomo um and so he could easily end up in Germany, Italy, France. I don't feel like he'll end up in France because it looks like Macron is his best boy. Okay. Well, there you go.

And it's unfortunate because, as I say, initially he seemed to be a righteous fighter against an invasion of his country. And that, okay. Did he really? He did. Oh, come on. It's funny. I don't remember having that opinion, and I don't think I expressed an opinion.

You did not. I did. And most people did because that was the optics. But then, you know, as you pointed out, and you were one of the few ones who was because it was, you know, not not kosher to say that he was, that he Zelensky was somehow not a Democrat. A grifter? Well, it turns out that, yeah, he, that's exactly what he is. Since when has anything bad ever happened from electing an actor as president? Well, some good things happen.

Let's be clear. Well, in your opinion. Okay. But anyway, go ahead. I apologize, I interrupted. That's all right. I was just saying, you know, one time we did it, we had the largest economic expansion in the history of the country.

So that would be a good thing. Really? Bill Clinton wasn't an actor, though. That was the biggest. Bill Clinton, I think, took, God, there's a lot of momentum coming from the Reagan administration. From the George H.W. Bush administration in the 1990 recession? That was such a shallow recession. God, you have one recession.

They hold it against you forever. Well, it was personal to be. because I graduated in 1991 from Columbia. And, you know, yeah, that used to be a good school before it was decertified by Trump. And it's like you got out and literally they canceled the jobs fair. Not one single employer was interested. Yeah, that's one single employer came. And this is what, I mean, this plays into other events, recent events, when George H.W. Bush in 1991 said that the recession was over.

And you don't do that. Don't tell the American people. That they're doing, in fact, it's, you know, this is kind of like, you ever see that French movie, Scott, called Ridicule? If you haven't, you would love it. It's a costume drama. No. Well worth seeing, look it up. Basically, it's about a young, poor aristocrat. Those things did exist from a swampy part of southern France, who is basically goes to Paris and hangs out at the court in order to curry favor to try to get royal funds so that they can, you know, drain the swamps literally in his district and get rid of, you know, malaria that's afflicting his pet the peasants so he go and they tell him basically what he's going to have to do to suck up and become popular in the french court which is and and and yeah and basically wait why did i bring this up what did you just say before that um oh my god well about george h w bush saying that the recession was over yes and he said and so one of the one of the pieces of advice that the older experienced aristocrat tells this young man is never laugh at your own joke

I'll always let other people praise you. And I think that's really valuable. Do you laugh at your own jokes? Because I laugh at my own jokes. I will admit that if it's really a good joke, or in my opinion, I find myself doing that. And then I remember the movie. Don't do that.

Stop that. All right. Let's talk about another question here, Sherlock Holmes. Any update on the Louvre crown jewels? I feel like that is a downplayed story. No. Basically, there's been some arrests. The French are investigating. The jewels have not been recovered. And by the way, nor were they insured. Oh, wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry. This is a piece of information. I did not know. They were not insured? No. According to the Louvre, which used to be,

like Columbia, an institution that was worth something, they couldn't afford the insurance, the coverage. I guess it's like Obamacare. The premiums were just too high. So they couldn't afford it. They're like, eh, we'll be fine. So what's the worst that can happen? Exactly. So, yeah, so the jewels are MIA still. I would imagine that, look, the French police and the serite are not, it's not unknown for them to torture people in custody. So I would imagine that the thieves are, currently like hanging from the ceiling and and you know having a very un very bad day and very bad night every day and being like where are the jewels where are the jewels who are the jewels who are they so but we will obviously keep you posted uh when anything uh breaks on that

play a story uh yeah amazing i mean just to i mean and it's not high tech it's not like it was like they got a ladder that was pretty much it it was a bunch of it sounds so far although there's there now that the fact that they can't find the jewels but doesn't it sound like it was just a bunch of kids it's a hey dude we we got a ladder like i got the ladder for the weekend let's go um yeah you know it sounded like it was a really well executed thing until we figured out it wasn't um okay village idiot tv thanks for the question disagrees with me perhaps the civil rights in the movement in the united states was a kind of nonviolent revolution if only regionally, also India must maintain hope for nonviolent change. I maintain hope for the

second coming of Jesus Christ, but it's not going to happen. And similarly, look, the civil rights movement was not a revolution is the replacement of one class of elites by another. It involves as Mount Satan. It is not a dinner party. It is the violent overthrow of one cast, and people do not, you know, one class of elites does not give up that power nonviolently ever. And in terms of India, that's also not a revolution. That's an independent struggle. And I'll save you the trouble. South Africa, the struggle against apartheid is, that's an emancipation movement,

also not a revolution, as proven by the fact that the rich white Afrikaners who were rich white Afrikaners before 1986 are still rich white Afrikaners today. If a revolution had happened, that would not be true today. But I do maintain hope for the second coming of Christ and for the second coming of Christ and for the second coming of print media. To be fair, you know, the, they're now, they're soon to be rich, white Americans because they're the only ones apparently here now. That's a good point. Thanks for that correction. Scott. Philip Blair has a political cartooning related question. Sure. Didn't they try to tell us the Arab Spring happened because a political cartoonist made a 14-minute video? What was the political cartoon angle? Oh, right. Oh, gosh, I have a vague

memory of that and do you do you remember it ted because i'm trying a vague memory of it too um and it wasn't um it wasn't ferrat in syria who was the cartoonist and um assad's goons picked him up and beat him to within an inch of his life broke both his hands it was pretty atrocious but that's not what the trigger was the trigger was um oh my gosh and now i'm trying to remember what was another scandal oh um Hillary Clinton in the uh the video that triggered the killings in um Libya uh oh gosh so remember that ted the um oh the um not the ambassador but the um yeah the bengazi attack what's that the benghazi at the attack on the benghazi consulate yeah and that that was that was caused by a video that had like three views right and

And also was, and there was also, yeah, I remember part of the blame was not a video, right? But it was the Danish Muhammad cartoons. Right. Well, that's what the video was about. It showed them on YouTube. It was a YouTube video that created. Yeah, so, all right. So to refresh people's memories, there was a Danish newspaper, a satirical magazine that published a series of cartoons, basically that were just like Muhammad sucks cartoons.

and they're kind of if you see them now you're probably like oh i remember those one's famous one's got like one where mohammed's turban is a old-fashioned bomb with the with the fuse sticking out and there's a bunch of others anyway those cartoons it's hard to overstate just how much shit they caused around the world as they were spread by rabble rousers like basically radical Islamists in Kabul and all over the world cairo they showed them There were mass demonstrations all over the place. You know, I mean, there were assassins dispatched to kill those cartoons. There was a fatwa, the cartoon, one guy, I love this story.

He was sitting in his house in Copenhagen, and he was like, he had like a Jody Foster-style safe room in his house. I mean, as all cartoonists do, and Scott and I do, guys, don't remember, don't forget that. but he had tricked out his house like a fortress in preparation for this and some murderer some al-Qaeda type dude some isis type dude show broke into his house with a fucking you know ar-15 probably an ar-15 style gun armed to the teeth grenades the whole thing and the guy basically went to a safe room the cartoonist he was like 65 like and basically locked all the doors and he had speakers in there it was like a movie and he's like hey asshole guess what? You're locked in. I'm safe. The cops are on their way. Fuck you. And like started insulting the prophet and like just going on and on until the cops arrived. And the guys

just sitting in there drinking port and just like waiting for the whole thing to happen. I was just like, you know, I don't appreciate the cartoon. And I'm not sure it was a good idea to be to insult someone's religion gratuitously. But that said, I got to hand it to that cartoonist. That's a pretty balls out action. Yeah, I love that. We may or may not have safe rooms if anyone is listening who may want to do us harm. I want to be really clear that you don't know that we don't have a safe room. Well, that's true.

And I would really clear. Not to mention, I also have an attack cat. Yes, Clovis will. The bloodshed, there's already been enough bloodshed due to that cat. And nobody needs to see. anymore. So ISIS, I'm looking at you. Fuck off. We just got a dog and I, um, he's been leaving a telltale signs that the squirrel issue we were dealing with is no longer an issue. Just saying there's a pile of fluff and bones around the, I've stumbled across in our backyard now.

You know, things can things turn ugly when animals do shit. All right. So let's, what do you want to talk about first? Um, Novichuk, Zelensky. Zelski is a great. I mean, here's the thing. about Zelensky. If you followed, Ted and I also do another podcast called DMZ America. And for years, you and I have been talking about this. And as I mentioned at the top of the show here, that I was a supporter of Ukraine and its resistance against the Russian invasion. But you continually brought up, you know, Zelensky, not a Democrat, you know, Zelensky, the corruption that was starting to show its face. Where was the money going?

We didn't even know what happened, for instance, to Russians who had. taken prisoners. Have we ever seen or heard a report about what, what Ukraine does with Russian POWs? I haven't. And I've made a concerted effort to look. I couldn't just be looking in the wrong places. The point is that democracy's got democracy. You know, that's just, there's no other way around it. And so when you're supporting someone who is supposedly a, you know, fighting for democracy, he was a duly elected kind of, duly elected, as Ted will give you the backstory on that, but he was ostensibly a duly elected president of Ukraine, but then he cancels elections. He cancels regional elections. And people here

are, and this is what drives me crazy, Ted, is people here in the, in the diaspora of the political talk make excuses for anything. He says, well, he's having a war. Well, you know, guess what, folks? The United States had elections during a fucking civil war. You can have elections. They're not that hard to hold, regardless of the circumstance. Yes, they'd be extraordinary circumstances, but what a message to the world to say, yeah, even though we're being invaded by an overwhelming force, we still are holding him off enough to have elections. And that would have been an extraordinary moment. Zolensky chose not to do that. He was concerned about what's the word losing?

Well, I don't know that he would have lost the early elections. Who knows? I mean, that's the thing about elections. You don't know. That's why they hold him. Remember, he only had, he had very low approval rating before the war began. Did he? Yeah, he was in the toilet.

I mean, he was, I mean, he had, he would, he would be, he would have been jealous of the numbers Trump has right now. And he could have, I mean, yeah, he could. And you can always bring that back. Don't forget, oh, what was his, Yeltsin was polling at 9%. when he ran for re-election in Russia. I'm surprised. I'm like, who are these 9%? Wow.

It's family and the oligarchs he gave stuff to? Bartender. So to finish the thought, you have been on the cutting edge of this story. As you are so often on, and you get no credit for it. You have been pointing this out for years. And some of us began to listen to you and began to look, oh, yeah, Ted's right. this is this is this is corrupt it's undemocratic uh we're backing the wrong horse or we shouldn't be backing any horse we should just be going wow look at that that stuff's happening hmm and you know

maybe that's what trump means when he says this wouldn't have happened under his watch because i don't really want to read i mean i don't know we can relitigate the whole ukraine war and i'm always happy to do that because i feel like i you know i was i feel okay with my position Right. I'm not running away from it. And I don't run away from my positions when I change them either. But in this particular case, what I really wanted to focus on is this is this report from the New York Times, which is like, I'm shocked, shocked, shocked to find corruption here. I mean, it's like basically Ukraine has had, you know, has been ranked something like number 173 by Transparency International's list of most transparent countries, at least corrupt countries. I mean, it's long. had a long-standing corruption problem, even by the standards of former Soviet republics. And even pre-Zolensky as well, Zelensky ran in part claiming that there wouldn't be corruption. He did have a pretty funny joke when he was running. He was asked, like, can anyone be president of Ukraine without stealing?

I don't know, we should try to find out. Well, apparently we did find out. Apparently, the answer is still no. But according to the New York Times, which has been, you know, running interference for Zelensky and, you know, very for three years plus, you know, they're saying that Ukraine set up these oversight boards to make sure that there's no corruption. But, you know, you basically Zelensky stacked those boards with his buddies, left the seats completely empty, what, Hunter Biden wasn't available, or stalled them from being set up at all, and that they even, that Zelensky even

rewrote the company charters so that there would be no oversight whatsoever. The point is, here's the issue, Scott, even if we think that Ukraine is a righteous cause or any country is a righteous cause and that we should interfere in that. And I don't believe in that. I don't, I just don't, we, the U.S. experiences with regime change. But like, okay, shouldn't, as a, as a, as a, as a, as a caretaker of American taxpayer funds, how can you fund a wildly corrupt country when you know that all the money is not going to go to the defense of that country? It's going to be stolen. and go to pay for villas in Lake Como. That's what happened here.

Any asshole could see it coming because of Ukraine's current and recent history of corruption. I mean, on that basis alone, I would have said, like, well, we love you, Ukrainians. You guys are beautiful. Love you. You're all blonde and everything. Can't help because we don't trust you. We don't think you'll, I mean, look at all the billions we poured into Afghanistan into, again, a wildly corrupt. government. And all the money, you know, the soldiers who wanted to fight the Taliban

didn't have, didn't have ammunition because all the money was stolen. So, I mean, you can't really help a corrupt country, is my point. Right. And the reason I brought up all the other earlier stuff is that, you know, it just set the table for corruption, you know, when you're supposed to be a, you know, country with democratic institutions that presumably have safeguards and governors to prevent corruption. That's basically what we, you know, what we do or what democracies do. And when you get rid of democracy, then you set the table. You're going, you're going to have corruption.

It's inevitable. It's going to happen. And that's what's happened here. You know, and the world is handing this guy, lottery, you know, big lottery size checks on foam course. You're already a winner. You have a billion dollars for this, a billion dollars for that with no accountability. Well, again, sticky fingers are going to, are going to him.

Oh, my God. I love, I love, I love, I love Elliot's comment. The irony of American foreign policy, people who don't understand how to govern Ohio or Michigan think they know how to govern a country with a totally different culture and history across the ocean. Can't say it better, so I'm not going to try. Philip Blair, thank you for this, that, that 14-minute movie was called Innocence of Muslims. it's an anti-Islamic film written and produced by Nakula Basili Nakula

So that's that's the film That Arab Spring thing That provocative thing Yeah Sneaker Dad Most people believed Ukraine was a democracy And they were wrong in a big way You know

And here's the thing And this is an academic question But you know If you're assessing First of all I'm not sure That every democracy needs U.S. defense dollars. But like, okay, but let's just say that that's the metric somehow. The, you know, Ukraine was like barely a democracy before 2022, right? I mean, like, they overthrew

their democratically elected president in 2014. And so here's a question. If you overthrow a guy undemocratically as part of a partly CIA, partly Nazi-funded coup, which is, what happened, then is the, are his successors legitimate? And I'm like, is, ish, maybe? Eventually. Eventually. I mean, yeah, it's hard to say historically, right? Okay. So I think we can sort of agree. So if you had to go back, if we had to go through this again and say like, oh, like a terrible, you know, a terrible country. Let's say, Let's say China. Here's a question for you, Scott, and then we'll move on.

All right. Let's say China attacks Taiwan, which is definitely a democracy. How do you feel? Should we help? How do I feel or what is going to happen? Well, should we? How do you feel? Do you think we should help?

We are so immersed in that relationship that I don't know that we'd have any choice. I just have to believe that through treaty, through, mutual defense packs through just the fact that they buy a bunch of our ships and guns and bullets, we're going to be, we're going in there. Should we go in? Is that the hill that you want to flush 100,000 American lives down? Boy, I'd have to think, I'd have to think long and hard on that. And it's weird because it's not like this is a new issue, Ted.

No, it's not. It's all like I haven't had the time. And my father-in-law was a Taiwanese independence advocate. And so, I mean, I know the issue. Here's the thing. I think it's a simple issue for the U.S. The official stance of the United States government is that Taiwan is not an independent republic.

The official stance of the United States government is that Taiwan is part of China. We've assured China of that since the Nixon, sorry, since the Ford administration. So, sorry, Carter, Carter, right? So basically, you know, we can't defend a non-country. So, like, legally as far as we're concerned, unless we recognize American independence, I mean, unless we recognize Taiwan independence, they have to declare independence.

Then, then it's, my point is it's, I don't even think then we should go, but it's, I'm a non-interventionist. But there's nothing to talk about until that happens. No, it's, and you're absolutely correct. It's not a sovereign country. It's not recognized by the United Nations. It's not recognized by the United States government as a sovereign country. I wish it were. It should be.

I mean, it's been long enough. They would have to declare independence first for that to happen. Of course. They haven't had the balls to do that yet. Well, Trump, if you remember on the campaign trail has had alluded to just saying, let's just pull the trigger. And if anyone's going to just pull the trigger, it's this guy. And he hasn't done it. He's looked, I mean, he's looked at the, the dynamics and said, okay, this is, no, we can't, this is, this is going to be, get way too messy.

And so, um, so given what you've just stated, I'm, I'm anti-intervention now, too. I mean, I tend to get seduced by, oh, this sounds like a good idea until it's not. Well, that's, that's the American way. But yeah, so I think, that's one thing I respect about the Trump administration so far, except for you know on some of its foreign policy which is that it's against it doesn't like war it sees war is stupid wasteful expensive um you know may and you can make the case that maybe it's necessary that i would make the case that you know if you look at many conflicts through a historic lens that they were not necessary and that america just got you know hurt itself more by jumping in

so with tai that's a great academic i'll have to give that some more thought because um i think what our reaction would be is just send them a crap ton more arms but they're armed to the teeth now so lord knows what else we can sell them right right and ice agents those guys apparently they're fat and stupid and they're um you know have you did you read those reports that's hilarious we can send them yeah indeed indeed uh okay so let's see um okay so sorry i dropped the feet a little bit my apologies She's, that's my fault. Okay, so let's see. We have an ad, and I should go ahead and read that ad.

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Go to aimcontrollers.com and build the last controller you'll ever need. Ooh. Now that was Verve. It also, it almost makes me want to start gaming. Okay. So we should talk about, we should obviously, well, let's talk about this UK Novichuk report. So back in 2018, the British authorities claimed that a British national, a 44-year-old woman, mother of three, died from a nerve agent called Novachat. They claimed that this was a military-grade nerve agent.

And basically, their theory was that a pair of Russian FSB operatives had been sent to the the UK to kill a Russian anti-Putin dissident. Basically, the operation was called off. So the derps threw it away. And then basically somehow it came into contact, the perfume bottle containing the agent that had been dumped in a trash can. Somehow ended up being exposed. This woman was exposed to it.

Oh, no, no, no. The story gets better, Ted. And she died. her partner gave it to her as a gift dumpster diving partner well he claims he got it at a charity bin which I'm not sure that this is a BBC report which I'm assuming is a thrift store or something like that

so he bought her some used perfume I love you baby I love you I love you so good you love me so much And she sprayed it on her wrist. You smell so good. Wait, what's happening? Wait, what's wrong?

Honey? Okay, so now, so look, that story has more holes in it than, you know, more holes in it than a Venezuela attack propaganda video. But now the new report, the British are doubling, tripling down on this. And now they're saying, well, it's Putin who sent this in to, sent these FSB operatives to kill someone who they didn't kill. And so Putin should be, and the Russians should be held legally and morally and ethically responsible for what happened here. I'm going to just say that I don't know if I really want to call bullshit on it, because I'm not sure it quite rises to the level of being as credible as bullshit, but it's pretty, it's pretty lame. I mean, it just seems now

that like with the loss of Ukraine, the West is struggling to find ways to remind to find everyone why Russia is evil? Well, I mean, from what I can read, and I can only read what is available, obviously, and that is that this woman in the perfume was, she did apparently die from exposure to a nerve agent. Initially, they thought it was something else that she was actually, they actually called her a drug addict and the BBC reported her as a drug addict, her being a drug addict and died from an overdose.

Now they're now, you know, I'm assuming this is based on toxicology and based on fact, God knows, you know, we've never been lied to by government before, Ted. Especially not about a rival government who we don't, who, you know, our people don't like. So what makes you, what makes you think that this doesn't pass the smell test? Well, okay, so first of all, we're being told that there's ways to sort of ID, a nerve agent and say, you know, okay, well, we know, based on the chemical composition of this thing, not only that only a nation state could have made it, but on top of that, we know which nation state it came from. So here's the thing. You know, I know I didn't graduate, but I did

do three years at Columbia School of Engineering and Applied Scientists as an applied, I was an applied physics and nuclear engineering major. And let me just say that, like, that kind of chemical doesn't have, this isn't like, you can identify radioactive substances pretty well. Like, you can pretty much say where a certain batch of plutonium came from or uranium. But you can't really, I'm not with 100% certainty, but let's say 90% certainty. You can't do that with a nerve agent. You can't, there's just no identifying markers. So it's like they're saying something that's not true from a physics standpoint and from a chemical

composition standpoint. So just on that basis alone, I never believed the story. And we don't, I mean, it's kind of like, also, where's the proof that this was a nerve agent at all? And nerve agents can come from anywhere, right? I mean, how, like, they could have originated in the UK. You know, who, it could have been some, you know, industrial disposal where some, someone stole this from a factory or, and, you know, and dumped it and then thought better of it, dumped it into a dumpster, where, you know, and, you know, where it ended up at the tag sale, right? I mean, I don't know. I just, I, you know, is it possible that this is, this went down exactly the way that

the, uh, the Brits say? Sure. But, you know, it's, there's just not enough certainty there to say we're going to, I mean, it feels like a real stretch to be like Russian president of Vladimir Putin murdered this woman. Yeah, that's where the report gets, you know, it comes off the rails. And their connection was that there was a dissident, a Russian dissident that lived nearby. That's where this could have come from. And that seems fairly weak tea as well.

But you're right, Ted. The way the report meanders along, and I read a little piece of it this morning, it sort of goes duper dupe, maybe some dissidents. This is sort of the MO for Russian agents, is to poison these guys. This is the poison they used. blah, blah, and Putin, and you're kind of sitting there, looking at this thing, kind of going, wait, what? Did Putin actually, do you think Putin actually had like a card table, like a foldable card table, had a little box of these perfumes?

He was just sort of, everything must go. Deadly perfume, barely used. It makes ladies of girls smell the way. way that they smell like cabbage and potatoes it does not love yeah yeah so you're i said you're your smell your your smellometer kind of picking up on this yeah to say to go from it's it's going from let's give it let's give it the best spin some goofy agents were there they're going to try and douse this guy and they were going to kill his daughter as well apparently allegedly, and give her some perfume, which seems weird if they wanted to kill him,

but let's, I don't know what they're into. And then it didn't work, so they throw it out. I mean, this isn't, this isn't stuff that gets approved at the highest levels, you know? This isn't right. That's, that's a fair point too, right? I mean, so, yeah, even if this were, I don't know, let's, let's blame that American Admiral. Apparently, he's taking the fall for everything these days.

let's move on let's move on to him so yes there's a lot to talk about with this drone sorry the not the Yemen I don't know why the thing says Yemen but with the boat attack in off of the coast of Venezuela in Venezuela yeah so basically the only I was talking to Jermal Thomas he interviewed me this morning about this earlier before our show and he brings up he brought up a really good point which is you know Why do we only care? This is a double-tap strike. So double-tap strike, at least in recent history, originated with something that the Bush

and Obama administrations used to do all the time in places like Pakistan. And they probably, you know, sure it still happens. Basically, you bomb a target, like usually a car, for example. And then passers-by, good Samaritans, first responders, ambulance workers, doctors, nurses, they come to assist. And then, ha-ha, aren't we funny? then we drop another bomb in the same spot and kill all of them. That's called a double-tap strike.

You know, basically everyone kind of agrees that's gross, you know, and yet, you know, we do it all the time. So that's what happened here. It's a double-tap strike. The changing narratives of the Trump administration definitely raised my hackles. I mean, there's lots of times when you can have a changing story or a changing. narrative. That's still totally true because you're trying to figure out what happened, or you're looking at it from a different point of view. But in this

particular case, this event was recorded, right, on video. And it was recorded internally and there are detailed logs. So we blew up this boat. It was 40 feet long. There were two survivors, presumably injured, on the high seas, clinging to a piece of wood in the middle of the Caribbean. we observed them for 41 minutes, and then we dropped another bomb on them and killed them. I mean, I guess to me, what we should have claimed was that it was a coup de grasse to put people who were going to die for sure out of their misery. Instead, you have this story that, first of all, A, that didn't happen. Well, okay, B, it did happen.

Then it's like, okay, well, it was Heg-Seth. Well, no, it wasn't Heg-Seth. It was this admirable. Oh, where was Heg-Sad? He gave the order. no, Heng Seth was at the bar or wherever he was gone. He said, literally, I was busy. There's a lot to do at the Department of War.

He was out-waring. So Hague-Seth is, so then, so all these narratives keep changing. And then it's like, but it was the admiral, but we think he was totally right. And now there's a congressman said, oh, actually, there was a third and a fourth strike. And I don't know if he was joking and being sarcastic or if he's being real. But the point is, the certain members of Congress, brief. They saw the video. Democrats came out of it saying that they'd never seen anything quite like it, even though they'd seen video of other aerial attacks by the United States

that killed people. And the Republicans came out of it saying, all a OK, just like normal. So there's a lot going on here. These, I mean, and the New York Times finally gets around today to questioning, well, are any of the 87 deaths legal? And is it maybe the problem here? You know, obviously we all kind of agree it's not sporting to blow up people who are clinging to a piece of wood. The administration actually argued, Scott, that, like, they were calling for backup, that they were like on narco-terrorist 911, like calling Harvey Keitel from Pulp Fiction to come save their ass, you know, come and help. Well, they could have gotten help. And I'm like, okay, well, at that point, they could have gotten into a UFO and caught. and started an alien invasion of the earth.

I mean, anything can happen. But, I mean, come on, they're in the middle of the ocean. There's no evidence for anything. They were trying to write their boat. Okay, the boat was blown to smithereens. But, Scott, it was a 40-foot boat in the middle of the ocean. Even if it hadn't been blown up, like, you know, if you and I are in the middle of the ocean, let's say we're both 25 and a tip-top physical condition, we can't turn over a 40-foot boat.

I mean, I don't, 10 guys can't turn over a 40-foot boat. Not in the water. No. No. It's, it has made people very uncomfortable. However, it's polling. It's one of the few areas where Trump is actually polling pretty well. People aren't as aghast at this as they should be because they should be. I was, there's a conservative site here in Alabama called 1819 and the editor of it who was, who is a remarkable story.

Story. Quick story. A former, he had been in prison and cleaned up his life, got his crap together and is now the, you know, the executive who runs 1819. But he came out with a, with a tweet or an X or whatever it's called today and said that, you know, due process. I mean, yeah, I should do process. But I mean, not everyone deserves due process. I'm thinking, this is a guy who went through a system that gave him due process. It seemed like I. And yes, actually, that's the whole point. of due process is that everybody does deserve due process. Yes. And so given that there's no due process, that there's no evidence, this administration has given us no hard evidence that these boats are indeed carrying drugs. The New York Times did do a store on one of the ships, one of the boats that had been blown up. And the guy, he was a fisherman on, you know, in a crappy little town in Venezuela. So to make some extra money, yeah, once in a while he'd move drugs.

I'm not defending his moving, his being a drug mule, but, you know, it was once in a while. They had no idea if that ship they blew up of his at that time had drugs, had illicit drugs destined for American streets on it or not. And by the way, Ted, I mean, the other thing about this whole war on drugs and getting rid of these guys is that, A, it's never effective. It never slows things down very much. I mean, we had prohibition. We can look at that as the number one model of failure of the government trying to prohibit people from taking

all this illicit substances. And two, I mean, isn't the problem really Americans taking these drugs? I mean, that's the fact that there's a market for that in America. They're not shipping them to. But there's not even a market. They're not shipping these drugs to America. These drugs, you know, the U.S. is suffering from a major drug problem. You know, the opioid crisis, though, is not, they make cocaine.

They send it to Africa. You know, they send it to Trinidad. These boats are not coming to the United States, and if they were, they'd be bringing cocaine, not fentanyl. I mean, the point is, the administration is lying about this. The president claims that every boat he blows up saves 25,000 lives. What? It's not saving any life, none.

And if it were, it'd be saving African lives, not American lives. And, yeah, and you know how much Trump cares about African lives, especially Somali? Yeah, he loves them. Oh, my God, like his own children. By the way, I love that number. Isaac says the second strike by admission was done blindly in the fog of war, amateur hour. Yeah, I mean, that's literally what Heggsat said. It was the fog of war.

We couldn't see the target. Okay, well, but by definition, you're not allowed under the American rules of engagement to shoot something you can't see. So get your story straight. They don't have it. The story is that Hegstis was there and was trying to impress himself or was you know he was on his third martini his his breakfast martini and they saw this and he got you know excited and decided to wipe these guys out it's egregious

it's a war crime it's it's it's plain and simple i'm sorry you you know you well it's murder it's well yeah oh i love f you so if you so thanks for the dollar if we're really serious about killing drug smugglers we'd be bombing the cia fair point um we know at least we'd where to find him. Very good. No, if we really want to, I mean, we would be bombing Chinese ships headed for Mexico when we'd be bombing Mexico. I mean, I don't, but we're not. But, well, that's true. And that's something that producer Robbie has pointed out in the past. Hey, so we should talk about Trump's approval ratings in the minutes we have left. By the way, if you're joining us late, thanks for joining us. Please like, follow and share the show. We're here Monday through Friday

here on D-Program at 9 a.m. Eastern Time. John Kyriaku is out today. He's attending a relative's funeral. He'll be back on Monday. Okay, so, you know, what do you want to handicap Hegset's career odds? Is he still, in this administration, I'm not sure, by Monday? Have there ever been, I'm trying to think in the first Trump, you know, version 1.0, was there ever an official who got in trouble with the media?

the general public who that then Trump jettisoned i'm trying to think i mean there was um secretary of defense i mean i know secretary i mean the attorney general uh former former senator from alabama um such jeff sessions but he just because he refused to prosecute things in a way that trump liked so he fired him but i don't remember anyone like getting into this kind of trouble and then Trump's saying, you know, he always doubles down on these guys. You know what, Scott, I got to, I got to hand that to you. I was thinking that there was a better than 50-50 chance of Hegseth being removed. But you're right.

What you just said makes it lower than 50-50 because Trump doesn't do that. He doesn't cut people loose just because there's pressure from Congress or the media or from the voters. He only cuts them loose if they personally are disloyal or offend him personally. I think I like that. Okay, so we need to talk about Trump's polls. Yesterday on the DMZ America podcast, you and I were joined by a pundit. We were handicapping the midterm elections. New polls just came out after that. Currently, 55% disapprove of Trump's job performance. He's down to 42%. These are Biden-like levels, not good. His biggest loss is among the place where he had had his biggest wins that brought him to power among independence, 31% approve of still approve of Trump, independence, but that's down from 41% just five months ago, Scott. That's a pretty significant fall, isn't it? It's the economy. I mean, I hate to drag this old trope out, but it really is the economy

stupid. The economy is performing badly. And as we touched on at the top of this of this hour, you can't Trump can't just dismiss it and say everything's fine I'm not hurting I can afford things you know you can't dismiss the American consumer's pain and they're going through some significant pain right now

you go to the grocery store I go to the grocery store and we buy stuff and you know you've just dumped 130 bucks on one bag of groceries and it's not like we're buying filet mignon and anything it's like you know potato helper or whatever the hell we eat I don't even know. But the fact that you can't, you have to address inflation.

First of all, you have to admit it's happening. And you have to address it in a serious way. And this administration is in no way, shape, or form is doing that. And you can't fix it quickly. You know, Trump tried to drop the tariffs, the Trump taxes on food items. And it hasn't really had an appreciable effect. Have you gone, Ted, you're French. I'm French.

We like, buff. Very much. Weep. And have you got in, have you, have you looked at the price of beef lately? It is crazy. Yes. It reminds me a lot of this old Mike Peters cartoon from the inflationary period in the 1970s.

And a person goes into a butcher shop and the, and the butcher's like, when you like to put that steak on layaway, we also. Take a guess. I'm not sure if you've looked. Stew me, stew beef. You know, for stew, for chili, you know, this is not the best cuts. You know, guess how much? 10 bucks a pound for the shitty stuff.

Yeah, yeah. The good stuff is like 20, 25. Well, okay. So getting back to your question, the American people are seeing this. They're not seeing gas prices budge. I mean, I think 250 seems not outrageous price for gasoline in the 21st century America. But he promised that those prices would come down. They haven't.

No. And they're looking at this guy who's spending an awful lot of time blowing up boats and, you know, threatening and trying to garner peace between Djibouti and Somalia or whatever the hell he's on today. That's hurting him. I think that is absolutely the gist in the crux of what his, where the problem is. Like literally as we, I'm glad you brought this up, Scott. So, I mean, lest anyone think you're joking. Trump literally just announced his latest agreement between Congo and Rwanda. The Democratic Republic of Congo, two different Congoes, by the way.

Yeah, there are two different Congo. But this is the big one, formerly Zaire, right? And, you know, I can't help but note the fact that this is of great interest because Eastern Congo be full of blood diamonds, right? So, and lots of other rare earth minerals and blah, blah, blah. Not gold leaf, because that would be, then we'd be at war with them. Well, that's all the, all the gold leaf has now been used. It's all on the wall at the, at the Oval Office.

Oh, my God, Ted, it looks like in, so it looks like a French whorehouse. It is, it is egregious. And now they have the sign outside that in gold calligraphy that says the Oval Office. Have you seen this? No, I've not seen that. And they have that, the breezeway that goes from the residency to the Oval Office that now is the walk of, the presidential walk of. fame. Oh, is that with the one with the with the Biden picture of the yeah of the

first Trump and I don't know if we never talked about this. Because Ted and I are both cartoonists, the aesthetics matter to us but the official portrait of Trump now that yeah well he said he's I read that he like actually practiced you know he actually is has silly expressions in private and he's very smiley but he he on purpose when he's public he said that he read a biography of Churchill, and the Churchill always scowled. And so he feels that, like, to look like a tough guy, he always has to be, you know, like look like scowly and me. I'm just laughing at the idea of Donald Trump reading a book.

Sorry. Yeah. Well, maybe he read about someone writing a book or something. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, he's going to try to buy us off. I know you're going to love this. Next time I see you, we'll talk about this, but Trump wants to give him. everyone $2,000 each.

So he wants to, I know you are hugely in favor of that sort of thing. Oh, my gosh. She has a fiscal conservative. Anyway, guys, thanks for tuning in and thanks for hanging out this week. You've been watching D-Program with Jed Roll and John Kirooku with editorial

cartoons for the Chicago Tribune, Scott Stantis, and my good friend sitting in. Please stay tuned. The TMI show with me and Manila Chan is coming right up. Ruth Rumble. You just sit tight. It'll just go automatic. on YouTube, you've got to actually make an effort and go look. We will be back Monday at 9 a.m. here.

John Curiaco will be back. And so we're looking forward to all that. Scott, nice to see you. Have a great weekend. It was great. Bye. Thank you.