Dhru Purohit Show - #250: Why Some Relationships Don’t Last with Esther Perel

Episode Date: December 2, 2021

This episode is brought to you by Cozy Earth and InsideTracker. As human beings, relationships are fundamental to who we are. We know that relationships can be a big source of happiness and fulfillment in our lives, but they can also be a major source of stress. So, why is it that we often find relationships so hard? This week on The Dhru Purohit Podcast, Dhru sat down with Esther Perel to talk about how we can begin to navigate roles, expectations, and flexibility in our relationships, how we are under pressure not only to have the perfect relationship, but also to portray this illusion to others, and why so many couples get it wrong when trying to solve differences. Esther Perel is a psychotherapist and is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on modern relationships. Her bestselling books, Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs, are global phenomena translated into nearly 30 languages. Esther is an executive producer and host of the podcasts Where Should We Begin? and How’s Work? In this episode, we dive into:   -The need to be right in our relationships (7:00)  -Reflective listening and having the ability to see multiple truths (14:51) -Role models in relationships (18:23)  -Expectations in relationships (23:59) -The core pillars of why couples really fight (32:07) -Polarity in relationships (35:21)  -Questions we can ask our partner that allows us to step into their perspective (39:18)  -Where Should We Begin - A Game of Stories (49:01)  For more on Esther Perel, follow her on Instagram @estherperelofficial, on Facebook @esther.perel, on Twitter @estherperel, on YouTube @estherperel, and through her website https://www.estherperel.com. Get her board game Where Should We Begin at https://www.estherperel.com/where-should-we-begin-the-game. This episode is brought to you by Cozy Earth and InsideTracker. If you’re looking for super comfortable and stylish men’s and women’s pajamas, joggers, robes, pullovers and hoodies, basically all the stuff we’re all wearing working from home these days, Cozy Earth has got you covered! So what’s Cozy Earth’s not-so-secret fabric that powers their superior comfort? It's the miracle plant bamboo! Right now, Cozy Earth is offering my audience 40% off. Head over to cozyearth.com and use the discount code DHRUPODCAST.   InsideTracker looks at everything from metabolic and inflammatory markers to nutrients and hormones. Traditional lab tests can be hard to read on your own, but InsideTracker makes their results easy to understand and provides tips on how to use food first for optimal nutrition. Right now, they’re offering my podcast community 25% off. Go to insidetracker.com/DHRU. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's not difficult to be right, but then you will be right and alone. Hi everyone, Drew Proud here. Today, my guest is none other than Astaire Perel, and she's going to be starting off by talking about one of the top things that couples do, that people do, that zaps the love from their lives, that prevents them from finding the love in others and in themselves. And you might be doing this. I know I'm guilty of doing it sometimes.

Stay tuned to find out what it is. is. Welcome to the Drew Perrault podcast. Each week we explore the inner workings of the brain and the body with one of the brightest minds in wellness, medicine, and mindset. This week's guest is Astaire Porell. Psychotherapist and New York Times bestselling author, Astaire Porel, is recognized as one of today's most insightful and original voices on modern relationships. Fluent in nine languages, she helms a therapy practice in New York City and serves as an organizational consultant for Fortune 500 companies around the world. Her celebrated TED Talks have garnered more than 30 million views

and her best-selling books, mating captivity, one of my favorites, and the state of affairs, are global phenomena translated into over 30 different languages. Astaire is an executive producer and the host of the popular podcast, Where Should We Begin and How's Work? Her latest project, Where Should We Begin, which is an incredible card game of stories just launched. You can find the link to in the show notes. This is a fascinating conversation with Estere Perel.

We're going to start off by talking about one of the top things that people do that zaps the love out of their relationships, prevents them from finding love in other people. I've been guilty of doing this. I know you probably are too. It's okay. We're all human beings. Stay tuned to find out what it is. Esther, welcome to the Drew Proet podcast. First of all, I'm deeply honored with your presence.

I've been following your work since the first time I heard about you, which was almost like 10 years ago now at the Summit Series conference. And I'm just so grateful for that community for introducing me to you and many other leaders in the space that have completely changed my life. I'd love to kick off today's interview. Yes, yes, absolutely. I'd love to kick off today. I don't remember the first time I saw you too.

You were sitting on a bench and we just started talking. I mean, it was actually not in a presentation. It was in the cafeteria. Yes, yes. I saw you first at a presentation. I think then separately we ended up connecting in this little just moment of both us having some downtime. Yes, yes, indeed. And struck up a beautiful conversation.

And I've been so appreciative of your work and you in my life. So just thank you for that. Thank you. And pleasure to be here. To kick off today's interview, I actually would love to talk about something that I think would be so beneficial for my audience to hear your thoughts on. And it's something that you've shared in the past that is sometimes silently, sometimes not so silently eating away at many of the important relationships in our life today, including romantic relationships, but not only romantic relationships. And

that thing is the need, the need to be right in our relationships, needing to be right, and by default, having the need to make somebody else wrong. And again, it's not just our romantic relationships. It's something that shows up in our relationships with our kids, our coworkers, and even sometimes, especially in this increasing world of what people would deem polarization or polarized, online with people that we don't even know that well and that deep need to be us right and them wrong. I'd love to ask you, if you could, can you help us understand where this,

deep need comes from? And what potentially are the unintended consequences that this need could be reeking on the most important relationships in our life? You know, I remember one of my teachers actually saying to me a sentence that has accompanied me in my work for decades now. And he said, it's not difficult to be right. But then you will be right and alone. The challenge of being right is to not disconnect, to not sever the connection with the person with whom you're having the conversation with so that you can hold multiple realities, multiple truths, multiple perspectives at the same time. And when you are close to someone, be your friend, your family member, your partner,

and you see this is blue. And they tell you this is not blue, this is green. How can you even think that this would be blue? And you experience this as there is no room here. It must be one or the other. This is what happened rather than this is how I remember what happened. Or this is my experience of what happened. You know, a lot of talk in relationships is pseudo-factual talk.

It's our subjective experience. But we present it like we know this is it. And therefore, if you have a different experience, it becomes an either or one of us must be right and one of us must be wrong. And people have all these ways of splitting the difference to kind of say we can agree to disagree. But when people agree to disagree, they're not staying connected. The ability to connect is really this. The research says that if we are describing a contentious situation, you and me,

and you tell me what you experience about it, and I don't agree with it, I can listen for about 10 seconds. And after that, I start to prepare my rebuttal. So when I ask people to repeat what they have just heard that the other person just said to them, if they have to repeat something that they can't agree with, they can't repeat it. It's much more difficult.

And 10 seconds is three sentences. And after that, they're lost. So this is how hard it is to enter the truth, the reality of another when it jars with our own. You know, we've done so many episodes on the brain on this podcast. It previously was the title was Broken Brain, and we changed the name of the podcast. And the whole idea was that we're trying to remind people that their brain isn't broken and how to understand it better so that they could take advantage of so many things that

they're looking for in their life. And many past researchers have come on this podcast and said that our prefrontal cortex, our executive function of the brain will shut down in the face of stress or a flight or fight response. And in some way it seems that when we can't fully listen or that part of our brain turns off, there's a momentary part of us that feels like we're about to be either attacked or we are being attacked. Do you have any thoughts on that? Yes, but I'm going to give it to you more in phenomenological language than in brain talk. Because what is my experience actually when I am attacked? Here is this person that I usually, or that I used to feel sees me, gets me, understands me.

And now you're saying things that make me feel like you don't get me at all. And I feel completely lonely next to you. And I feel completely disconnected from you. And I'm thinking, I can't take another moment of this. This is the phenomenology of what happens when the truths are butting heads. You know, you can do brain talk about that, but it doesn't really give you the actual experience of people. I want to shake you. I want to drill my truth into you is one response. I'll repeat it one more time, exactly the same as the time before. Why would this time succeed? Beats me. But I'll say it once more just to see if I can get inside of you. It means if I can pour my heart, my feelings, my sadness, my disappointments inside of you so that you can get it and then let me know of that.

It's really extremely rich, actually, what happens in those moments, you know. And it depends if we think that it is disconnect, you know, because there's conflict or if there's conflict or if it's. It's simply that we have a very different view of the story. So when I meet you, it's easier when we just meet in the beginning. And I say, Drew, what did you think of this play? Do you think of this movie? And you tell me, and I say, oh, I didn't see that at all. I saw something very different.

But don't you think that this character was really terrible? And you say, no, I actually think that character was really terrible. And we are interested in each other because there's a certain distance between us still that allows me to listen to you and you to me without thinking, if he says so, what does that mean for me? How does that reflect back on me? But after a few years, or when we are in stress, for all kinds of reasons of stress, and you say, I didn't hear that at all. That's not what they said.

And I'm like, how can you say that? I mean, this is exactly what he said. And on we go. And at that moment, you're right. we are in fight-flight mode. But flight-flight mode is actually very active, but it doesn't give you enough of the relational description. What's happening inside of me and with you and between us,

that is the relational narrative. And so I speak a bit of a different language on that. No, it's a beautiful language. And that's why so many people relate to the messaging that's there. For anybody who knows, and we can all relate to this, and catches themselves in that moment where they're more committed to the right than to being in connection or in love, is there something?

I love listening to your podcast. Where should we begin? Because in those moments, you have couples actually reflect back upon each other. What did you say? What did you hear from what the person just said? And you'll call them out when you notice that there's a gap or really are not listening. Like you'll say, you know what, this time really let's try. Let's try.

We're going to practice this skill. when we're not in the company of a therapist such as yourself and we are individually there with our partner and we catch our commitment to this need there. There's a moment of awareness. What's one thing that we can do to help us step out of that? So, you know, in where should we begin? In this couple sessions, you see me help people to listen. But the listening is not just in order to hear what the other person say. It's our ability to enter the experience of the other person,

even if my experience is very different. I don't think that when I went upstairs to read my book, that I was leaving you stranded all alone downstairs. I just thought I went to read my book. How do I show you that I understand that in those moments you feel left out without having to agree that that's what I did too? you. So that is the real challenge, right? How do I hold on to my experience while I still connect to yours? Or how do I connect to your experience without feeling that then I am subservient

to mind? That dance of differentiation in couples, that is the real struggle around being right or having the truth. It's the ability to see multiple truths. Your experience of this behavior is really your experience of this behavior, but that doesn't mean that that's what I did. So what's one thing people can do? When you're in that conversation, sometimes, you know, I'm going at it with my husband and all my sons of, you know, and I'm thinking, you know, ooh, it's so hard for me to hear them say this.

And then I think, okay, reflective listening. Why? Just and everybody can do that, which is really to start with a very common technique, but it's very hard. Simple when you don't disagree. Somebody says you're beautiful, you're smart, I love spending time with you. You know, you're such a fun person to be with. You don't have a problem saying what I'm hearing you say is that you think I'm really smart

and you love spending time with me flows very easily. But if you're saying, you abandoned me, you left me stranded there, you don't pay attention to me, you don't really care about whatever. And I have to repeat that. And I don't see myself in anything that you've just said. That is really challenging. So what I'm hearing you say is that when I go to read my book, it leaves you feeling very left out. Is this it?

Do I get it? Yes. Tell me more. Well, because the last three times you went to read your book, you never came back down and you stayed there in your attic for three hours in a row. And what am I supposed to do here? I thought we were going to do something together. It's Sunday. What I'm hearing you say is that I stayed very long.

And I want to start to argue. it wasn't three hours. I never stayed three hours in my attic. It only was one hour. But instead, I have to say it felt to you or it was three hours. You say it was three hours and that I completely let go of the plans that we were going to spend time together. And that ability to enter the view, the world, the inner world of the other and still think, I'm only repeating. That doesn't mean I agree or I accept. That is not my experience of the same thing. But I have. But I I can enter your world for a moment. That is the exercise.

I want to share a story from you of one of the moments. I had an aha moment when you were speaking. And this was another event in Los Angeles, also a summit event. And you had been brought back on stage as an encore, as you often are, at different events that you're in. And you played a beautiful game with the audience. And the game was really centered around this theme of. creating dialogue and vulnerability.

And you stated a series of statements, and you told the audience, after I repeat any of these statements, if you can affirm or relate to this, please stand up. And it was a very visual thing because the audience was full. The room had almost 3,000, 4,000 people inside of it.

And it was a very powerful thing. So you went on to talk about different statements that were there. But one of the statements that, especially I think about in the context of this interview, that you shared was he said, stand up if you personally know a couple, not somebody you've seen in the movies or in some fairy tale or in the magazines, but stand up if you personally know a couple that would be an example of a role model or an inspiration of what you would like in a relationship.

And this room, just to set the stage for the audience, was filled with some of the most highest achieving individuals. You know, you had artists, you had activist, you had activists. You have billionaires. So many people that were there. And I don't have an exact count, but I would estimate that less than probably 10 to 8% of the audience stood up. And there was this deep silence as everybody looked around, both the people that were standing and that were sitting. And this recognition of this is something that so many people are struggling with, which is the idea of we've not, many of many of us have not had role models. in our life and if you don't have a role model, this sense of recognition of everybody is trying

their best in relationships with what they know, with where they are. As you were just sharing about how to take on somebody's perspective, but not discount your own, that to me reminds me this idea that that is quite hard for people because they haven't had much of that role modeling in their life. How can somebody who's listening here take the steps in the right direction to find those role models? And is that necessary to make progress in their relationships? It's a beautiful question. So here's the thing that's so interesting, right? If you and I disagree about what the actor said in the movie, I don't have a problem, let's say, repeating what you have to say entering your experience, seeing it through your eyes, crossing the bridge on the other side.

But if it's about something about me, then it's much more difficult. So that's one distinction that's very important, is that for some people inside, be it with their friends, their parents, or their colleagues, or their romantic partners, are able to hold dualities, multiple truths, different narratives. as long as it's not about themselves. And then the question is, why can some of us easily do this with friends? If I had asked the room to stand up, if they have role models about friendship, they would. Many of them would stand up.

What's striking is that people have role models when they think about art, when they think about entrepreneurship, when they think about research and science, when they think about friendship, but they don't have many when they think about romantic love. And even if they see their partners, sorry, their parents as role models, then they say, but it was a different model. They did very well. They had a very good relationship, but within the model that suited them, and it's not what I am looking for today. So that's an important nuance in there, too. What makes it so difficult?

What makes it so difficult? I've written two books about that, and I probably would have written. we'll write another one because it's not one simple answer. Why is the simple experience of love between two people so complicated and it can degrade so easily in so many multiple ways? And a part of it has to do with what I long for from my partner. How can this person who is supposed to know me so well, so clueless about what I'm feeling?

I never can feel as lonely and as alone as in the presence of someone who should be making me feel less alone and isn't. If I feel alone next to a colleague, I feel alone next to a colleague. I don't expect the colleague to take care of my existential aloneness to make me feel like I matter so much, a little bit, but not to that degree. But if you are my partner and I next to you feel like I don't matter, It's crushing. It's unbearable. I'd rather be alone without you than alone next to you. So what changes is the expectation.

And the expectations of our romantic partners have kept climbing and climbing and climbing. We've never expected more from one person than we do today. It's unprecedented. And the more we expect and the bigger the disillusionment. Because in the past, we were divering. diversified. My parents, your parents, they diversified. This they spoke with their partner. This, they never bothered talking to their husband or wife about. They talk to their brother or their best friends, you know, or their doctor. They didn't think that they had to share all of that with one person. We do. That's one of my favorite quotes of yours. What we used to expect from an entire village or get from an entire village. Now we're looking for one person to fulfill that in our lives. has the last 18 months, two years,

made that problem worse or made that problem better? Or some combination of the two years? I would say that in a different, I would say it like this. Disasters, big crises are always relationship accelerators. Because, and if you want to put it in the context of the pandemic, of the social and economic

obheavals, of the racial reckoning of the full spectrum of instability of climate change that we are experiencing. The basic shift when there is a crisis or a disaster is the sense of fragility. Life is short. Mortality hovers around you.

And when life is short, it creates an instant reprioritization. What matters? What can I let go of? If life is short, short, you say, what am I waiting for? I got to get moving. Let's move in. Let's have a child. Let's get married. Let's move countries. Whatever it is that we've been waiting to do, that we want to do. And on the other side, it's, I've waited long enough. I'm done with this relationship. I'm done with

this job. I'm done with this place that I'm living in. I've waited long enough. So it's beginnings and endings. And when you look at adaptability, I just am running this whole conference for coaches and therapists on the great adaptation of this moment. Like how do we stay grounded when the ground is moving? And I asked a few thousand people to give us images of how they connect

to the title, their own experience of coping, hoping, grounding themselves. And basically adaptation in relationships and in life in this last 18 months went in two directions. People who sought calm and people who sought movement. people who wanted to sit on their yoga mat, meditated, ground themselves in stillness, in rituals and routines that they were holding on to, and those who wanted to let go declutter, put themselves in a van, start traveling, you know, run in nature.

I can't tell you how many pictures of sneakers I got and then, of course, how many pictures of pets I got. But adaptation went in two directions, holding on and releasing. This is what happens in the relationships. People are either wanting to let go of what they no longer want to tolerate or they really want to treasure and be so grateful for that which they never really appreciated enough. Does that make sense? Absolutely. It absolutely makes sense.

And I can see that a lot of my, I can see those themes in life. It's like people often ask, are things getting better and worse? But it's the accelerator of what those circumstances are doing for where you already were. What direction were you leaning in? and you're going to be taken in one step, either closer towards that direction or away from that, depending on your perspective. And what happens if you have in a relationship one of each? Now we go back to the who's right.

Because this was one of the major stressors in couples, is that you had one person who wanted to adapt by doing this and that you had the other person who wanted to adapt by moving faster and movement itself. movement because it's the way to not freeze in the body and if you don't freeze in the body you feel like you are able to take on the stress it distresses you i don't have to tell you you know these things scientifically way better than me but it's really those who calm themselves by grounding by breathing by meditating by you doing yoga by reading and then those who ground themselves by going and just taking a run for a few hours or a hike or a bike tour or whatever it was but it meant the body had to be in motion in order for them to feel calmer.

I want to come back to the first question and this idea of needing to be right. You know, you say that... Which one are you? Are you one of those? The person who needs to be right? Yeah. Are you one who says, are you... Actually, I could go with your question, but I have something I would love to describe.

No, please, please. Prompt, prompt, I'm willing, I'm an open book. I'm happy to jump in. No, because when I asked you, are you a person who stands your ground? Or are you a person who likes to be right or who needs to be right or who needs to be affirmed when you believe you are right? There are different variations here? Or are you a person who will, you'll submit. You'll basically say, okay, you know, it doesn't really matter. Or, you know, you surrender, you let go, you release it.

It goes together with the fact that I think in many relationships, and this is really to your question about who's right and how we deal, you will often find that there is one person who is more afraid of losing the other and is more in touch with the fear of abandonment. And one person who is more afraid with the fear of losing themselves and the fear of suffocation. And the person who is more afraid of losing themselves is often the person who also will hold ground when they think they're right.

The person who doesn't want to lose the other is more likely to just say whatever or okay or doesn't tell you what they think, what they feel, what they need, because you're going to decide anyway. And in order not to lose you, you should have what you want. I think I've been both of those people at different times in my life. And I think sometimes you're with a partner that maybe one of them comes up. And I think there's another time with your partner where another aspect comes up. That's right.

That's super important to say to all the people like listen is that we are part of, we are contextual. We're not just one thing. The relationship will make us be a certain way and we will make the relationship be a certain way. It's not just we are either this or that. Yes. And to see, especially if you identify as one or the other, but to see the, the hypocrisy inside of you when it shows up to be able to notice it and to say, wow, this is something that I typically don't like in somebody else, but I'm acting this way.

Let me just own that and just appreciate that for a moment or the other side. And so I've played both sides of it. And like many beautiful things in life, so much of our growth comes from suffering. And having suffered so much in the past with relationships, there was a deep need and desire to want to understand it and to learn from people like yourself and having with my wife right now, I got married in August of this year, I think since the last time I've seen you. Also having a partner that has the commitment along with me to want to go and explore these things and see our patterns and to talk about them together and to practice, practice being in love

together. So I've been on both sides of the spectrum. And having been on both sides of the spectrum, for this question I'm going to ask you, I often see that when we are stuck in the need to be right, and I've been there myself, just so everybody understands, and I think a lot of people can relate. On the surface, when we fight with our partner, it looks like something new each time. Every time we fight, it looks like something new. It's a new topic. Or if there are themes, it could be how that theme plays out, like cleanliness, or whatever it might be.

You know, we often see it as like, we're fighting about new topics each time. But I've heard you say that really, it's not so much the thing that we're fighting about. If we go deeper, it's how we fight and how we communicate about those topics. In fact, there's often these core pillars that all fights end up coming back to.

Can you talk about what those pillars are? I've heard you talk about three of them, three of the core pillars, and why they continue to show up in our relationship, even though it looks like we're fighting about something new. Right. No, you don't. Most people basically fight over the same thing that they discovered on the two of their relationship.

Because, but you, and that is the big seduction, is to get seduced by thinking that it's, it's the money or it's the cleanliness, or it's the in-laws, or it's the children. It's not. It's not the topic. So what is it? And this is really from the research of Howard Markman. This is not my original work at all. And he has more than three, but there are three that I like to highlight.

And so the first thing he says is that the underlying themes, what are people really fighting about when they're fighting about this? And you can look at this with your wife. You know, take three topics that you fight about and then tell me, Do you fight about power and control? As in, who makes the decisions, whose priorities matter more? Who has to relinquish? That's the word I was looking for.

Who relinquishes to the other, you know? Is it about power and control? So it's not who decided what we do with the laundry. It's the fact that there is a perception that there's one person who always makes those decisions and has the power to impose it on the other person. Because you will see the same thing will be said for the laundry and for the money and for the children and so forth. Number two, are you fighting about care and closeness as in trust? Can I count on you?

Do you think about me when you make a decision? Am I part of the picture? Do you have my back? That's the care and the closeness. And number three, do you fight over respect and recognition? meaning you don't value me, you don't value my opinion. I don't feel recognized, seen, honored, you know, taken into in that sense. And those are basically the three primary underlying dynamics that people really fight about

when they are fighting about what they think are their preferred topics. Where do you see in attraction and relationships, and romantic relationship, you often will find that your partner is, there's a polarity that's there. You have one particular preference and tendency, and we tend to attract somebody that, not opposite, but just different from us. So do you notice that when it comes to these core areas of what couples in this context fight about regularly, do you tend to notice that one person is more in one area and another person is in another area? Is one person more, tied up in power.

Give me an example. Example is one partner, the themes of, I guess to set up the example or set up the question is that when we are looking to identify that both in ourselves and in our partner to better understand them, are we often looking that theirs would be different than ours, right? Our primary areas that matter to us, like we fight more about. control or power matters more to us. And somebody else, it's more about respect. Is there usually that our partner is different than us?

Sometimes. Sometimes one person is really upset about the fact that you made a decision and you didn't ask me. It's not really the fact what decision you made is the fact that you don't ask me. You just make these unilateral decisions and I feel excluded. Now, if I feel excluded, then we're talking about care and closeness. if I feel not respected, then we're talking about respect and recognition. If I feel like, you know, why should you have to be the one to make that decision? Then we are in the power and control.

You have to listen to the full text. This is very, you know, we learn to analyze these things frame by frame, you know, sentence by sentence. So we have an argument. and what I say is going to is going to be one way to really see what is what is it that really gets me here? Is the fact that I don't feel you care about me? It's the fact that you want to impose yourself over me or is it the fact that you don't value what I have to say, that I don't have contribution, that I have no influence over you. And this goes in both directions.

And it changes sometimes on the issue. But fundamentally, you will hear, like you say, that, you know, if I can see a person over a period and I hear them repeat typically, you don't care about me. You don't really think about me. You don't include me. And then I know the theme, the theme, you know, of its closeness. I'm not in the picture for you on a closeness matter,

But it has nothing to do with if I think that if you think I'm smart or if you value my opinion or if you think I'm competent or if you think I'm contributing to the household, this is not what we're fighting about. Fighting about the fact that I have long, and now it becomes a preexisting assumption. Before anything even happens, I live with the idea that fundamentally you don't really care about me. And maybe I think like that because fundamentally I felt uncared for before that by other people who I was hoping would take care of me. And so now we begin to have themes of our own personal lives that amplify this and resonate this. And this is one model for thinking about this. Other colleagues in the field have other ways of interpreting those same dynamics.

You know, this is the beauty of relational work and mental health is that there is not a one-size-fits-all and there isn't a one view that can capture the whole thing. on the path of inquiry what are some questions you know you're so recognized for your ability to ask i won't even say the right question just the question that takes things deeper and provides the context for connection that's what the new game is all about which is beautiful by the way we have some more questions about the new game and want to talk about that in that moment when we are trying to identify and support our partner that this thing that we keep on fighting about, there's something deeper that's there. What is a possible? It's not the right question. It's so

personalized. It's related to the, you know, what's going on with that couple? Maybe they're in therapy. Maybe there's not. But what is one potential question that we could ask if we're genuinely trying to step into being open? We can ask our partner that allows for the opportunity to step into their perspective and understanding them a little bit deeper. I love this question because I love questions because I think that a good question opens up a whole universe. So when people come the first time to me, I rarely ask them what's the problem? What are you fighting about? None of this is important to me. I mean, I get that in a few minutes. I also get in a few minutes when they have written to me their story. And then when they come and they basically are telling me the same

story with the same words, then I know they're stuck. It's like they say the same thing over and over. And if they saw that to me, and I've just met them, then I'm sure they also do this with each other. So everything I do is to try to open up new possibilities, not to go where they are in the way. It's a bit reverse of, typically we say we should meet people where they are. I do that, but I do it differently. So some of my preferred questions on the first session is, what would you say is a vulnerability that your partner struggles with? So if you think of your wife, what's a vulnerability that you would say she struggles with? Pick one, simple one. Yeah. A vulnerability that my wife struggles with is trusting her gut and letting go of the opinions

or the expectations of what she would deem society might have for her. Right. And then the next question would be, so we would stay there, and I would ask you to elaborate on that a bit and stuff. Because what I'm checking now, of course, you're coming in because you're fighting. But I don't need to know that you're fighting more. I want to know what is your empathic capability with each other despite the fighting. How are you at getting each other?

And then I would say, and how have you been? what role have you played in the way that she deals with that vulnerability? And then I will find out if you've been helpful, if you've been critical, if you've continuously tried to tell her how she shouldn't take care of, she shouldn't think about anybody else's opinion, but de facto, she needs to think about your opinion. It's because you're telling her, you know, right? So that's a question.

What's one of the vulnerabilities that your partner grapples with? And it's beautiful when somebody in the, of all of the noise tells you, well, one of the things that he's challenged, that challenges him or that is, and then they say something that is so human about the other person. The second one that I really love is what would you say is wanting, you who know yourself very well, what would you say is something that makes it hard to live with you? And that's a question about what what self-awareness do you have? What is, give me some inkling into your own relational self-awareness, you know.

I can be bossy and I can have mood swings and I can shut down and I can stonewall and I can explode on the tip of, you know, and tell me more about that. And what do you think that has as an effect on your partner? So this is the reverse question. Because people often know themselves well internally, but that doesn't mean that they know themselves well interpersonally. Right? What is the effect of what happens inside of you on the people who are right next to you?

So that's the second one I really like. And then the third one that I love to ask is, oh, there's so many. There's so many. When there is a mistake, do you tend to be, would you deceive yourself as the person who tends to instantly think who can be responsible for that? Or do you tend to be, just think more about, you know, your own responsibility towards that thing? Do you tend to be more an externalizer, as we could call it, or do you tend to be more someone who has a tendency towards self-blame?

We all need security and adventure in life. We all need to feel safe and we also all need to feel. that we can be curious and exploratory, et cetera. Would you say that coming out of your childhood, you were a person who was more in need for safety and security and protection? Or would you say that you were a person who was more in need for space and adventure and freedom? Yeah, for me it would have been space, adventure, freedom. So these are some of the, I mean, I have probably 30, 40 of time.

them, but those are the ones that come up to my mind today as opening questions that people can ask each other no less. And so in the context of one of those questions, you were presenting it as if you, you know, you're asking me as like a therapist or somebody that's external for my relationship. You can do this with each other. So you could do it with each other. And on the topic of the, you know, you asking me like, what could be difficult somebody living with me, right? Yeah. somebody responding. So somebody could go to their partner and say, hey, sweetie, hey, babe. What do you think is one of the most, what could be one of the most challenging things being in a relationship with me? Could they phrase it that way? Or living with me?

No, I think it is more interesting for you to answer about yourself. Okay. So you would, if you're having a dialogue with your partner. I was thinking, you know, we often are very good at knowing what is the primary complaint of the other. That's another question I often ask, is what is the primary complaint your partner has about you? Do you see some truth to it? And what's one thing that you could do that could shift this thing? But that keeps it in this direction. I'm also interested in your saying, you know, we all the time are very quick at knowing what we don't like in the other

and what the other doesn't like in us. But I thought, I was thinking, you know, a little bit of self-awareness could go a long way. And I heard this woman, she said, why don't you ask the question in this direction? What is something that I know about myself, knowing myself as well as I do, that makes it hard to live with me?

And each of us talks about ourselves. And then, and how do I think that knowing this, And how does this affect us? And how I, so instead of asking the other person, what makes it hard to live with me, I'm telling the other person, I know what makes it hard to live with me. And I know what it does to you. I think that secondary question, which is not only what makes it challenging, but what is the impact on you? We often think that we know the impact on our partner, on our coworker, our friend,

when I'm being a particular way. Doesn't mean that I agree with it. We do. Sometimes we do, but our partner doesn't think we do. Because they feel like they've been trying to tell us, I hate when you do this, this, this, this, this. And we are so justifying ourselves that we don't tell them. I know that that's annoying. I know that when I do this, you left wondering, what the hell, you know. But if I tell you that I know the effect I have on you and I happen to hit it right, then I, then you are left feeling like he knows me. He knows what's going on here. gets it. I don't have to repeat it one more time. He knows. Now what can we do becomes the next

level. But he gets it. I feel understood. I feel seen by my partner. I don't feel like we're in two completely separate realities. When we feel seen, when we feel understood, now it's a preference conversation. Now it's a practical. Now it's, we're supporting each other with helping each other meet each other's needs. You know, hey, I would like it if you would, you know, do the dishes before I come at home or here's the responsibilities that I need help with. But when we are not seen or when we don't feel seen by our partner, when we don't feel understood, it's very difficult to enter into the next step, the next dimension.

And that's one of the reasons that I so deeply appreciate and want to just take a few moments to talk about this new project that you have, the game, where should we begin? First of all, it's beautiful. It's beautifully designed. and you know you call this game a game of of stories with the goal is it's intended to design a sense of playfulness storytelling and really often just this theme that we were talking about connection and under understanding now i texted a mutual friend of ours who was somebody who

was a collaborator with you in the project helping out with it and i said you know i'm going to be talking to Astaire, and do you feel like there is a favorite card that she has in the game or some story that might be a prompt for the interview? And he said, you know, Esther loves to share the stories of other people rather than necessarily focus on herself. So in the spirit of the project and the card game, is there a story that might come to mind of you seeing other people answering? one of the prompts inside of there

and how that created a deeper sense of connection and understanding in their exploration. And feel free to take the question in any way you want to. Right. So I will give you a few of the questions and then I'll tell you

one of the beautiful letters I received recently. And then I want to tell you something about a polarity between you and your wife that just struck me. Please. I thought, you know, some of,

so, Where should we begin? The game of stories basically follows the same idea as the podcast. Where should we begin? Is that we often connect true stories. Stories are bridges to other people. We tell our relationship true stories. And sometimes we tell them better when we are playing because there's a container. Playing is a ritual. Playing allows us to take risks. Playing gives us permission to tell the stories that we don't usually tell. And so some of the prompts of the stories have to do with a rule that I secretly love to break, my most irrational fear, if I could change something about the way I was raised, a phone number I need to delete.

I can't believe I got away with. I have a friend who is now sending me one card per day from Europe, and the card he chose yesterday was an event that profoundly changed my life that nobody or very few people know about. And it was about how he survived the fire with a dear friend, but the friend who he took out of the fire did not make it. And I know this guy for 50 years, and I did not know this story. You know, if I quit my job, you know, I would be a text message I fantasize sending.

I've never shared the whole story about the time that. it goes on like this. And so I get this letter from a woman that I don't know. She just connected with me on the M. and she says, I took this game to an important work event where I was with a whole group of other artists and creators. And I thought this will help us kind of get to know each other.

And I had a whole bunch of skeptics and cynics around me and nobody really wanted to do this. But I held my ground. And I said, come on, people, let's do it. And I went with the person who sat next to me, and I asked him this question. She didn't tell me which one was the prompt card, interestingly. And she said, and it happened to be the most skeptic of them all. And lo and behold, the guy started to tell a story that was just unfathomable.

And from that moment, people began to engage with it. And then another five people joined. And by the end of the evening, we had a completely different week ahead of us, because we talked and shared things that in your life you wouldn't be telling to people you've barely met. And it goes from the barely met to people who are playing with their teenagers, to people who are playing with their partner, to people on a first date. And that's the richness of stories, is that you can adapt the story. I tell you a story when I know you and we know each other in an interesting way like that.

differently, if I ask you the question, a dream I've never shared. You know, you will, it's a, it, you can adapt it. You're going to say something different on a first date than if you're talking to your children than if you're talking to your wife. But what is beautiful about stories is that we love to listen to stories. We go to bed as children listening to people, read us stories. Stories are an entrance to the world, to the inner world of people. and it's fun.

And it helps us at this moment with the fact that we lost so many connections during the last two years. And this is a wonderful way to deal with our social atrophy and our kind of hunger for intimacy. You know, many of us lived in pods for quite a while and we lost the broader community. And playing with a lot of people brings back that whole, you know. And there's a whole way in which I can force you. you to answer a certain card because I really am curious. So there's a bit of a peer pressure dynamic in there. And I thought during this pandemic that there needed to be a way that was playful and fun for us to deal with some of the very things that we were often very serious about.

That really was the way that I said one day, literally I woke up, I'm not a player. I never play games. I'm not into cards. And I woke up and I said, I did something that is alive, that is fun, creative and playful and allows us to reconnect with, you know, with spontaneity and improvisation and eros, what I call, which all was kind of, you know, muted for so long. And that was that. I said, I want to create a game. And my team looked at me like, what else? Well, the reason that I love the game, and I know we're wrapping up here at the end of our hour together. The reason that I love the game is going back to that very vulnerable question that you ask the audience, asking them to stand up if they've had role models or examples or

things that they look up to. We have never had so much potential for deep, meaningful connections in our life. There's so much potential. There's so much empowerment that's happening in society. There's so much education that's out there. The potential for deep and meaningful connection has never been greater and the need for practical steps, especially for those who feel like they have not had examples of what is an open-ended question to somebody that I love that I'm deeply interested in wanting to get to know better, what does that look like? And having that role model in the form of this card game, in these questions, is a very lighthearted way to step into something that the world needs more and more of, that we're all craving, which is this sense

of understanding and knowing that we're not on this journey by ourselves. And you can't do it if you can't also try to practice it and give it. So I just want to acknowledge you for putting together an incredible product. And everybody listening, you know, the link is in the show notes and you can find it. Where should we begin card game? And Esther, I just want to thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom here with our audience and just for the work and the commitment that you've put out over the years, which is not just saying yes to the incredible opportunities. As somebody who also has admired you as an entrepreneur, I know you've had to say no to so many things to keep your message on point and on vision and continue to bring the gifts that

you have to the world. So I just want to acknowledge you for everything that you've built. And thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure.