Dhru Purohit Show - Answering Your Top Questions on Fasting, Snacking, Longevity, Alcohol and Caffeine with Cynthia Thurlow

Episode Date: January 12, 2023

This episode is brought to you by Cozy Earth and InsideTracker.   Today on The Dhru Purohit Podcast, Dhru sits down with Cynthia Thurlow to answer all your questions regarding hormonal health and how middle-aged women can tailor their diet and lifestyle to feel empowered and set themselves up for optimal health. Cynthia Thurlow is a nurse practitioner, CEO and founder of the Everyday Wellness Project, and international speaker, with over 13 million views for her second TEDx talk (“Intermittent Fasting: Transformational Technique”). With over 20 years of experience in health and wellness, Cynthia is a globally recognized expert in intermittent fasting and nutritional health and has been featured on ABC, FOX5, KTLA, CW, Medium, Entrepreneur, and The Megyn Kelly Show. In this episode, Dhru and Cynthia dive into: -The macronutrient goals Cynthia hits in a day (2:16) -If working out in a fasted state is beneficial for most women (5:58) -Signs that you’ve overextended yourself or are out of balance (21:24) -How Cynthia prioritizes sleep (24:13) -Bioidentical hormone therapy and how to know if it’s right for you (27:35) -Understanding your relationship with snacking and if you really need to do it (38:58) -How dehydration might be causing your fatigue (45:08) -Cynthia’s take on alcohol (57:21) -Cynthia and Dhru’s thoughts on caffeine and when it’s time to take a break (1:12:12) -Getting enough protein on a plant-based diet (1:26:43) -The research on supplementing with melatonin (1:30:03) Also mentioned in this episode: -Try This: Why You Need a Coffee Break and How to Do It -Why Women Are More Likely To Develop Alzheimer’s and How to Prevent It with Dr. Lisa Mosconi -Cynthia’s Podcast, The Intermittent Fasting Podcast -Cynthia's free Facebook Group: Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle/Cynthia Thurlow For more on Cynthia Thurlow, follow her on Instagram @cynthia_thurlow_ and through her website, https://www.cynthiathurlow.com. Get her book, Intermittent Fasting Transformation here.  Cozy Earth has the most comfortable, temperature-regulating, and nontoxic sheets on the market. Right now, get 40% off your Cozy Earth sheets. Just head over to https://www.cozyearth.com and use code DHRU. InsideTracker provides detailed nutrition and lifestyle guidance based on your individual needs. Right now, they’re offering my podcast community 20% off. Just go to https://www.insidetracker.com/DHRU to get your discount and try it out for yourself. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If you're really genuinely hungry in between meals, then you didn't put your meals together properly. Either you needed more protein, maybe a little more fat. We should be able to go four to five hours in between meals. Ideally, that's what we should do for gut optimization, for the migrating motor complex, all these specific mechanisms that go on in the body. Welcome to the Drew Proet podcast. Each week we explore the inner workings of the brain and the body with one of the brightest minds in wellness, medicine, and mindset. This week's guest is Cynthia Thurlow.

For those of you that are not familiar, Cynthia is back on the podcast, answering your questions in a deep question and answer session. If you don't remember Cynthia from the last time she was here, she's a nurse practitioner, author of the best-selling book, Intermittent Fasting Transformation, and a two-time TEDx speaker

whose videos have more than 13 million views. What I truly love about Cynthia is that she has so much knowledge at the intersection of fasting, strength training, which is a super important topic we talk about today, anti-aging and longevity, and metabolic health. By the way, she knows a lot about mindset as well. Here's a couple of deeper topics we get into today in our Q&A with Cynthia.

Number one, she walks us through what she eats in a day. How does she organize her plate and think about food in the day? And what is her game-changing hack to ensure she isn't hungry between meals we're always snacking. We talk to Cynthia about how she thinks about strength training and what her preferred workout methods and times are and why she believes that walking is one of the most underrated things that you can incorporate into your wellness regime.

We also talk with Cynthia about her honest thoughts about fasting. And get this, why is a fasting expert taking a break from longer fast? She goes into that on today's podcast. And lastly, we get her thoughts on alcohol, caffeine, Botox, and on the mindset side, how to stop being a chronic people pleaser and to finally stand up for yourself. It's a fantastic and a deep Q&A with Cynthia who I've gotten a chance to befriend over the last couple of months. She's amazing and I think you're going to love this podcast. Stay tuned.

Cynthia, welcome back to the podcast. It's a pleasure to have you here. I'd love to jump right into things because we have a whole list of questions that people have asked since your last appearance, your last podcast was very popular. I want to jump right in. Walk us through. I know there's no typical day in the life when it comes to food, fasting, you know, weight training, all the things that you talked about before, blood sugar.

But give us some of the key things that you're looking to hit in the day and maybe some of the things that you also eat during the day. Yeah, it's a question that is so common that my team and I are constantly kind of fielding. I would say for me, exercise in the morning is how I really am generally starting my day after I spent some time expressing gratitude. I mean, there's specific things I need to do to set my day up mentally. So even take us back a little bit. So what time do you find yourself on regular occasion waking up? Between 5 and 6 a.m.

6 a.m. if I'm lucky. Have you always been a morning person? I have. But I think working in healthcare, it was by necessity because I would have been miserable if I had not been able to kind of acclimate myself in my 20s to the understanding that, you know, you have to be in the hospital by a certain time either rounding or seeing patients. And so I think I naturally kind of became an early bird. I don't think I was per se that would have naturally been the course of direction that my life would have gone in, but by necessity just being in medicine. So up at five or six o'clock,

I do spend about 15 to 30 minutes in the morning just kind of getting myself mentally ready for the day, which means I don't immediately jump on social media. I don't immediately check my iPhone. I don't immediately like jump into tasks that I need to do. But it could be maybe I'm taking time to stretch. Maybe I'm doing some meditation. Maybe I'm doing gratitude work. Some days it could just be doing household tasks like, you know, laundry. I have teenage boys, so there's always a ton of laundry to do. My day always starts generally with green tea and water. And then I'm usually naturally kind of acclimating to either taking my dogs out for a two or three mile walk unless it's summer because it's very humid where I live in summertime. And then I will go to the gym.

If it's a day that I'm doing strength training, that's the next priority. And I just feel much better exercising for me personally in a fasted state and just staying really well hydrated. And that's how I kind of start most of my days. I try not to work in my business before 10 a.m. And I've just found that that allows me to have the time to invest in my self-care stuff that sets my mindset and my body up for the day. And obviously, as we're going through this routine, you know, this is your routine now, but just for people who don't remember your story or didn't get a chance to hear it, you're in clinical care for years. So this same routine wouldn't have worked at that time. No. And I was the person that was getting up at 4.30, 5 o'clock to go to really intense conditioning classes,

almost like CrossFit type workouts. And then I would shower at the gym and go right to work. And so it was this constant kind of high cortisol stress state of getting up early, forcing myself to go the gym, forcing myself to go right to the hospital or right to clinic and then working all day and then running home to go get my kids off the bus or do the next thing, the activity load. And so, yes, six years ago when I left clinical medicine, it allowed me to have scheduling like this. I acknowledge I'm fortunate. I'm very blessed to be able to have that degree of flexibility.

But it's also allowed me to see, like, how do I best show up in my life? And the best way I show up in my life is if I invest in myself first, you know, get the things done that are good for me that help support my healthy cortisol rhythms and circadian balance and fasting and hydration. And then I can give to others throughout the day and feel like I can do that from a very genuine place. So you mentioned fasting. So part of this daily routine, again, there's no typical one, but there's going to be

themes that are there, is that you enjoy working out on a fasted state. What's your experience, especially for other women? Do you find that that works for them or they have to personalize this? based on whether or not they're a morning person, how hungry they are, what are your thoughts of that? I think a lot of it depends on bioindividuality. So each individual finding out like how do they feel in their menstrual cycle if they work out in a fasted state?

You know, they may do well at one stage in their menstrual cycle and the other stage they may not. They may feel like they need more sleep. They need to do more restorative activities. There is a degree of experimentation because if someone is the typical American right now who is not particularly metabolically flexible that is using, you know, glucose is their primary fuel. They are going to struggle a bit more if they are going to the gym in an unfed state.

They may have to really incrementally see how they can adjust their body to being able to tap into fat stores to use as energy. So can everyone work out in a fasted state, especially women? That requires a bit of finesse, a little bit of experimentation, really dependent on, you know, is someone sleeping well? If so, I'm not going to ask them to add more hormesis. or more hormonic stress to their life. I'm not going to suggest that they add more fasting.

If they're totally stressed out, they're going through divorce, they lost their job. They just had a big move. If someone is eating a garbage diet, if you're eating a standard American diet with a lot of very inflammatory foods that are hyper-palatable, highly processed, you know, I may get you to start making some nutritional changes first. And then lastly, if someone's just doing chronic cardio, which we know, I always say chronic cardio, there's some cardio that's good and some that's bad, but we've been conditioned as a society that more cardio is better. And so I just always like to remind people that

fasting is a form of formesis. It's a form of beneficial stress. So finding the right combination of those things is going to allow a man or a woman to determine whether or not fasting is the right strategy for them. So fasting, and this is what you do well with your work and your communication. I always appreciate that. It goes along with making sure sort of What is that diet that allows us to take on that stress that is healthy for us? But if we don't have the right dietary approach, now our diet is unhealthy for us, and then fasting can be unhealthy for us. So let's talk about food for a second.

Now that you've gone through your day, you've set the intention, you've carved out some time for you. You're taking care of your mental health, having a little bit of palate cleanse, but also leaving it a little bit of room to take care of a family. You mentioned a couple boys, husband. When do you have your first meal of the day? You know, over the last year, I've been experimenting with an earlier feeding window, meaning I'm not fasting until 11, 12, 1 o'clock in the afternoon.

So I've been eating typically by 10 a.m. That's my first meal. So I'll have my first food bowless. And I know that word sounds terrible. First meal, usually around 10 a.m. And then I will have a second meal in the afternoon. And that is what has worked really well for me. And I always aim for 40 to 50 grams of protein with each meal in terms of, you know, really like

working towards that number. because that will make me feel most satiated. I'm going to have plenty of energy. I was doing in my answer stories yesterday, just giving people examples of what I eat when I travel because I don't have all the control over everything that goes on. And so the hotel thought I was crazy. I had this three egg omelet.

I had two pieces of sausage. They had charcutory. I was like, can I add that to my plate? Yes. And all to get to that 40 to 50 grams of protein with each meal. So usually 10 a.m. is my happy point. You know, it's really interesting because we've had a lot of different experts come on this podcast who have different opinions about when to eat, how it works, the contextualization

of men versus women. And like you, my wife is an entrepreneur. And there's a lot of brain power that's being used early on in the day. And through a lot of experimentation, she's found that if she actually eats after 10 a.m., she feels completely unfocused. She feels like it's harder for her to concentrate. she feels that if she even pushes that first meal back to, let's say, like, 11, when she eats it, even if it's a pretty balanced blood sugar meal, she feels tired afterwards. So any thoughts on about why that might be happening and based on your own thoughts and experience? Yeah, it's interesting that you're sharing that story about your wife because I feel similarly. And it could be the same macro breakdown that I have at 10 a.m. versus 11 a.m. or 10 a.m. or 12 p.m.

And I really think it's leaning into what our bodies need at that moment in time. And so I started thinking, was the meal too large? You know, if you get tired after a meal, did you have too many carbohydrates? Was the meal too large? Because sometimes, you know, even though I'm aiming for those macros of 40 to 50 grams of protein, sometimes it's maybe it's a fattier meat. Maybe it's a fattier fish. Maybe it's too much fat.

Like, for me, that's usually what moves the lever. The other thing I think about for your wife, because she's still in a state where she has a menstrual cycle, It's like, where are you in your menstrual cycle? Because we know, you know, as you're heading into your ludial phase, when you get alterations and progesterone levels and estrogen and testosterone, I just find that women tend to be a little bit more fatigue prone. So it could be where she was in her menstrual if it's something that's just cyclical or if it's something that's recurrent, I would say, was the bolus of food?

I always, bolus is such a terrible word. It was the bolus of food just so large that it was mitigating too much, you know, too much on the digestive system. Those would be my first two guesses. And like you, I think what she's found out is that she just does way better when she eats earlier. It's the same exact meal. She eats a little bit earlier, maybe nine, 10 o'clock and feels much better throughout the day. And then that typically would mean that we tend to go for an earlier dinner. And that still lets her take advantage of a concentrated feeding window without feeling like she's sacrificing any sense of performance. throughout the day. Yeah. And I think I think it's important for people to, you know, do some degree of

experimentation. I know when I was first a new clinician, it was this one-size-fits-all methodology. That's kind of what we were trained in, was that it's one-size-fits-all. Every person fits in the same bucket. If they have high blood pressure, this is the drug you start with with every single person. And a lot of the work that I do now is really encouraging people to lean into, like, do a bit of trial and error, find what works best for you and your body and your lifestyle and lean into it. and see how all that works for you. Well, I think it also goes with, you know, we tend to focus so much on food, but food relates to so many other aspects of life.

I love in your routine, especially because you have dogs, this is a great hack. All the studies have shown that, you know, people who have dogs have more diverse microbiome. But on top of that, you're going to be walking on a more regular basis outside. And if you're getting in two to three miles in the morning, by my account, that's probably at least a good, you know, 7,000, 8,000 steps that you're getting in first thing in the morning. not only that, you're outside and you're getting that sunlight.

And for a lot of people, and this was my wife's situation as well, I'm just bringing it up because I think that a lot of my audience, which is female and women listening, they might be able to relate. I'll often hear that people say, I'm not hungry in the morning. And just simply adding in a little bit of morning sunlight and the impact that has to reduce the level of melatonin that's sort of free floating in the blood, Now, all of a sudden, my wife is hungry in the morning. And she actually feels like she functions better throughout the day.

So just going back to your story, getting out first thing in the morning, not only you're getting steps, you're getting a chance to get away from your phone and your computer, you're getting a little bit of sunlight, even if it's cloudy, which it often is on the East Coast where you live, you're still getting a lot of lumens based on just being outside. And it's a much more powerful way to start the day. So just wanted to acknowledge that because your routine is not just about what you eat, it's about also the other things that you're doing. And the one thing I would add to that is that, you know, with each step that you're taking, it's a muscle contraction.

So you're helping with insulin sensitivity. And that is something I talk about so often with, you know, patients and clients is just mentioning what are the things you can do in your day? They're going to have a positive net impact on insulin sensitivity. Yeah. And we're going to break that down a little bit more. But we're going to continue on your day a little bit. So you gave us a little bit about what kind of goes in that meal when you're there. And it kind of sounds like, Your primary focus is on fat fiber protein. Is that, would you say so? Yeah, I mean, for me personally, I don't do well with like large quantities of fat. And I actually do better with plant-based fats than I do animal fats. And ironically enough, I had this nutrigenomics test over the summer. And my colleague said to me, tell me about how much fat you have in your diet.

And I said, I just don't tolerate animal-based fat. And she's like, that's actually part of your epigenetic makeup. And so I was like, okay, that's validating because my family thinks I'm crazy. When I'd say, like, I can't do the rib, I actually need the filet, which is five times as expensive. It's like explaining I personally do better with lower fat. So, yes, protein, fiber, fats if I need them, that's generally the bulk. And I do eat carbohydrates.

I just don't eat large quantities. And if I do, it's, you know, I'm carbcycling. So I'm very cognizant of where I am with strength training. I do two leg days a week. And so if it's a leg day, I'll increase. my discretionary carbs and work really hard in the gym. And so that has worked well for me. And it's certainly, you know, it's part of that bioindividuality. Like I don't think I would be happy with, you know, less than 50 grams of total carbs every single day for the rest of my life. But can I

hover in that range and do well most times? Absolutely. But do I enjoy myself on occasion? Do I have some discretionary spaghetti squash? Do I have sweet potato, root vegetables, blueberries, which are one of my favorite things. Yes, I do enjoy those as well. Yeah, and I think, you know, last time we were out of you on the podcast, we talked about fasting insulin. And if that's something that you're measuring every so often, it's a cheap test, probably costs like, you know, a few bucks. You can get your regular doctor to start including it at least a couple times a year. If you're tracking your fasting insulin, generally speaking, like all the carbs that come from the ground directly are going to be okay within limitations as long as you have a good amount of protein in your diet and

you have a good amount of fiber. And I think, unfortunately, carbs have been bastardized, But I always say if you're insulin sensitive, then carbohydrates should be a part of what you're doing, whether it's non-starchy or starchy carbs. If we know you're insulin resistant, then it's you really need to do check in with yourself. More protein, less carbs. If you're going to consume carbohydrates, it's the right kind of carbs. It's not the process variety where, you know, it says net carbs. I always say that's a cheat. As long as you understand that the process food industry is trying to take advantage of understanding that people are being conscientious about their carbohydrate intake, I always say always, always.

track total carbs if you're tracking macros, the net carbs are a cheat. It's to make you buy the product that says, for net carbs, it's like, oh, that's not so bad. But really, it's 20, but they want you to believe otherwise. So take us from there in your schedule. So you said you're eating something around 10 o'clock? Usually eating around 10. And then I am in my business. I'm checking email. And I put constraints on how long I spend checking email for my sanity. But I mean, they're doing podcasts. I'm, you know, running a team. I mean, I've got multiple kind of avenues that my business is headed in. So it's business stuff from usually 10 to 3.30 when I have to get my youngest from the bus because he has a high school that's in the city. So we have to pick him up about

halfway home. Otherwise, he rides a bus till five o'clock at night, which is way more than anyone wants him to be doing. And, you know, there's intermittently in between kids stuff, depending on, you know, what season it is and what sports my children are in. It's, you know, helping with dinner. It's not so much helping with homework anymore because in many ways they're very independent, but getting people from point A to point B. And then just, you know, having personal life, you know, things that have to get done, errands that have to get done. My husband's 100 percent a team player. It's not just me doing all the work. I'm grateful for that. But a lot of my day is this balancing act going back and forth between being an entrepreneur, being a wife, being a mom, trying to find some

degree of balance, which I think is really elusive for most individuals. I don't want to pretend and say it's perfect all the time and trying to be very clear and intentional about where my attention goes because it's very easy as an entrepreneur, as I know you know, it's very easy to say yes to everything, but does that serve us? And so creating those healthy boundaries so that I can focus on the most important things, which are my kids and my husband. and then secondarily to that, like my business, because I think in a lot of ways I love and I'm very passionate about being able to help people live healthier lives and to be able to do it from a

platform with its high integrity. Before we come back to food and like, do you eat lunch, do you not eat lunch? What's your timing around it? What are some top couple signs for yourself that you've overextended yourself or that you are out of balance. I find that for a lot of people, it's about increasing our interception so that we can catch those moments because they're going to happen. So what is that for you that you're like, okay, I've gotten a little bit too far. I've taken on a little bit too much. I need to pull back and reset a little bit. I think the first thing that I feel is I kind of get this nagging sense in my

gut of I don't really want to do that. I don't really want to do that. You feel like an obligation. I do. I feel tremendous obligate. And I'm, I'm a reform people pleaser. So this is something I actively work at every day. It usually stems from there. For me, it's if I'm more tired than I would normally be, if I don't feel like I'm able to effectively get through a workout, if I'm feeling like I want to take a nap because that's not my normal, it's like, okay, what's going on?

If I feel like I need to take a nap out of a sense of just feeling like I don't have enough energy during the day, I think the other thing for me that is a very important metric is sleep. And so for me, sleep is where things show up when I'm overly stressed or if I'm perseverating over something or something's really bothering me, you know, within my business or maybe with a family member, something's weighing heavily on me. It shows up in my sleep. And part of that is the, you know, the challenge is being a middle-aged woman that all of a sudden sleep sometimes can be seemingly more challenging than it was before. And so I always say if everything's dialed in, I sleep really well. If I start waking up,

the middle of the night, around two or three, and I struggle to fall back to sleep. I'm always like, okay, what's going on? Let's get honest with ourselves. And sometimes it means I have to go back to my schedule and tell my team, we need to pull these things off because this isn't serving my best interests and this is not moving my business forward. And we have to be really clear and deliberate. I think coming off of a book launch this year, I feel like I can really speak from a place of authenticity and say there was a lot of wonderful things that came from that book launch and, you know, obligations, being able to connect with amazing people like yourself. But it also showed me, how do I want to show up in my life? How do I find balance amongst all these blessings and these

opportunities and still be a real human being? And so a lot of what we are creating in 2023 to make that happen is more boundaries, saying yes to less and still leaning into amazing things that come out of it. So that's usually how it shows up for me, that nagging intuition, the sleep and feeling just tired. I want to pull on that thread for a second because we see this comment a lot. You mentioned middle-aged women. A lot of middle-aged women who listen to my podcast notice that there's a big shift in their sleep. What have been some of the top things that worked for you that helped you prioritize sleep

and actually feel like you woke up in the morning fully rested? I think probably the most important thing that I've realized is that that I have to be thinking strategically about sleep when I get up, that getting light on my retinas in the morning is helping to set up healthy sleep patterns for the evening. Because I think many women think about sleep at like 8 o'clock at night. They're not thinking about it the rest of the day. Whereas I say strategically, the first thing I'm thinking about in the morning is, yes, getting that sunlight on my retina, getting that exercise, getting my steps.

And that's all great, connecting with nature, being with my dogs, being disconnected from technology. but understanding there's this complex interrelationship with our circadian and chronobiology and getting light exposure in the morning. So that's number one. And it's almost, I would say, without question, maybe when I'm doing business travel, it might not be as easy, but making sure I even get 15 or 20 minutes every morning. I would say the other thing is, is having a very different relationship of what I do in the evening. So obviously, if my kids have to be somewhere or there's a football game or a cross game,

then that's going to happen regardless. But I don't feel the need to socialize in the evening like I used to. I don't stay up late in the evening. My kids would be the first person to tell you that I'm in bed before everyone else. It means putting myself to bed at 830 or 9 o'clock. And no, that's not sexy. And no, that's probably not what most people want to hear. But for me personally, I put myself to bed earlier. And that has been, that has come back to help me in so many different ways. I would say the other thing is I've done a lot of experimentation with supplements. And let me be clear, before you start adding supplements, make sure you're doing the foundational principles that help with sleep.

Don't add in GABA and think that's going to fix the not getting enough, not spending more than five hours a night in bed and being in front of blue light and technology all night long. So I would say for me, the supplements that have helped the most with me and sleep and kind of gearing down is L-thianine, which you find in green tea. GABA, and certainly I would say the other one is melatonin. You know, we make less melatonin as we get older. And so melatonin is not just a sleep hormone. It's a master antioxidant.

And so repletion for me personally of those three things. And I supplement each one separately, so they're not all put together. So I know they cumulatively help me enormously. I would say those are the biggest things. And the other thing I would add is exercise. I mean, I wasn't not exercising before, but I can tell I need to exercise in the morning because if I try to exercise at night, my body temperature goes up a little too much and it makes it a little harder for my body to, which is kind of counterintuitive.

I can take a hot shower at night and my body temperature goes up. But if I exercise at night, it's almost guaranteed to impact my sleep in a negative way. So I think those are the tangible things that I've done that I think have had a huge net impact. And also speaks to the fact that sleep quality doesn't have to be this, you know, you have to do 15 different things and involve all this tech to be able to have a good night of sleep. It really is foundational principles that have a huge net impact in the long run. Are there fun gadgets that I like to use to help me sleep? Absolutely. But it's the foundational stuff that I think is way more important. Do you ever find that sometimes women in particular, sometimes men too, do they have to

explore the category of bioidentical hormones to help them balance things out? Absolutely. And I think, you know, as a clinician, the Women's Health Initiative, which came out in 2002, which was just at the very beginning of me being a baby nurse practitioner, really did a huge disservice to women because it led to clinicians being fearful to prescribe hormones, and then you have a whole generation of women being fearful to take hormones. So I'm a fervent believer, if you really look at the data, that bioidentical hormones can be hugely impactful, in particular progesterone. And, you know, for me, I jokingly tell my functional medicine doc, I'm like, it's a non-negotiable.

Like, progesterone will be a part of my life for forever. And for anyone that's- And you take it as a bioidentical hormone for yourself? I do. I do. I take it orally at night. And just give us, give the audience a little bit of an overview because, you know, we've talked about it before, but a lot of people don't understand how important progesterone is. So what is it? Why is it important? And why does it matter, especially at like different life stages that somebody might be entering into? Yeah, that's a great question. So progestrone is one of our main sex horn. hormones, and it's produced until women go into menopause in the ovaries. And so each month, you know, during our menstrual cycle, we have fluctuations in estrogen and testosterone and

progesterone. And so progesterone is the predominant hormone kind of heading into the ludial phase. So the time right before a woman is either pregnant or she's going to have a menstrual cycle. And so what starts to happen in perimenopause, the 10 to 15 years preceding menopause, is that women are producing less progester from their ovaries. And that shows up as things like poor quality sleep, more anxiety and depression. And so, you know, for me, it also can show up as women having very heavy menstrual cycles because they now have this relative imbalance between estrogen and progesterone. And of course, this is a huge oversimplification, but for terms of it explaining it in a way that makes it really tangible. And so for many, many women, it's with the understanding

that as we are losing ovaries or ovaries secreting as much progester, and our adrenals kind of step in. And women go through not only menopause, but also adrenal pause. And so, So it's important to understand this is why we become less stress resilient. So maybe what you got away with with the lack of sleep and partying and staying out too late in your 20s and 30s, you don't weather as well as you're getting older. And so I remind women that progesterone is absolutely important. It is one of those hormones that women can take orally. They can take transdermally, so absorb through their skin.

But it's a hormone that helps upregulate GABA. And so that is one of these inhibitory neurotransmitters in the brain. And so for many, many people, they realize, like, as their body is producing less progesterone, as they are less stress resilient, they can benefit, even if it's just the week prior to the menstrual cycle starting, they may benefit from taking progesterone. And so I think for a lot of my patients, a lot of my clients, they find that oral progesterone therapy, especially at that stage of life, can really impact their quality of health enormously, even if that's just a starting point. Many people are, I'm fearful to take hormones. And I always say, well, progesterone is, once your sleep quality improves, then, you know, you can kind of take a deep breath and decide, you know, you and your provider decide what the next step should be for you. But that's kind of an overview of what progesterone is doing.

Can you share a little bit about life before and after including progesterone as a hormone for yourself? Like, what were some of the things that you noticed? Oh, gosh. I mean, early 40s, I remember I went to see my GYN. It was like an annual appointment and I was having a conversation and saying my cycles were really heavy. And of course, she was like, yes, yes, yes, whatever. And so it just happened timing-wise. I went in and it was like my annual exam and my period had started that day. And so she said, oh my gosh, your period's so heavy. Okay, this is what we're going to do. Oral contraceptives. We're going to do an IUD or we'll do an oblation or you're done having kids. So let's just do a hysterectomy. And I was like, time out.

No way. So for me, you know, I think for a lot of people when they're considering progesterone therapy, when they're considering having those kinds of conversations is with the understanding that progesterone for me was life-changing. You know, I was doing all the other things. I was, you know, leaning into getting off screens. I was going to bed earlier. I was, you know, soaking in magnesium. I was doing all these things, getting plenty of exercise. And then I remember how it was like night and day. It's like I woke up in the morning. I was like, wow, like I really stayed asleep overnight. And of course, this is done with diagnostic testing. You're getting blood work done. You know, obviously I'm a huge proponent of the Dutch, which is this dried urine and saliva testing that can

kind of map out hormones, but progesterone is best tested with blood work as opposed to the Dutch. But for me, it was completely different. In fact, I sometimes get panicked if I think I'm going to run out of my compounded progesterone, if I'm going for a trip and, you know, I've got like the stuff that you can get at the local grocery store that's by prescription. But the variability, and I'm sure you probably know this, is that, you know, generic alternatives can sometimes range. It can be 20% variance in what's in the prescription drug. And so for me, the, you know, really inexpensive prometrium that I could get at my local grocery store target with a

prescription wasn't consistent. And that was something that I started to notice. I was like, okay, when I got the 20% variance option, you know, maybe it hit me every couple of days, but it was enough that I would start waking up. So for me, sleep is foundational. And, you know, it's oral progesterone therapy for me has been, I mean, it's just life-changing. And just to connect those dots, it's really, you found the right practitioner for you, who understood it, and then they were basically putting that prescription through a compounding pharmacy. Yes.

And compounding pharmacy is just for anyone, if you're unfamiliar with what that is, it's they're going based on your provider specifications. Like I also take compounded thyroid medicine, works a thousand percent better for me. Again, that's just me. And everyone, there might be people out there that use synthroid or. armor and they do fine with it. And that's great. I just wasn't one of those people. But compounding pharmacies are making that formulation specifically for you, specifically based on the recommendations and parameters that your licensed health care provider has recommended.

That's great. I love it. I appreciate you breaking that down because, you know, sometimes in the world of wellness, there is this feeling that if it's not natural, I'm not going to do it. And yet there are plenty of things that are not natural that actually work really great for us. And I think biodentical hormones, and for anybody that doesn't know the history, there was some studies that ended up coming out saying that, oh, if I'm from correct, biodentical hormones may be associated with cancer, right? Was it the breast cancer? Well, it was the women's health initiative that came out in 2002, and they actually had a population of women that had been in menopause for a long time, you know, in their 60s. So you're talking 10-plus years

into menopause, many of whom were former smokers, had high blood pressure, were obese, overweight, and we're using synthetic, so things like peremarin and progestin. So those are synthetic versions. And premarin, for anyone who doesn't know, it's pregnant mare urine's, pregnant mare. So like a pregnant horse's urine is what peremine is derived from. And so, you know, it's one of those things where that study in and of itself is what was extrapolated that somehow all these things were increasing rates of breast cancer and all these other types of cancers. And it's really unfortunate because I think you have a whole generation of women, my mom's generation, many of whom were either prescribed hormones doing well on them and then everything

stopped. And now I'm looking at my mom and my mom's sisters and many of my aunts, all of whom I love dearly, who are starting to see some degree of cognitive decline. And that for me is really scary. Being a middle-aged woman seeing this whole generation of women that because of the women's health initiative, and I've seen many clinicians speak very openly, that it was the greatest disservice that's ever been done to women. Wow. And I have to agree wholeheartedly with that. But I always am respectful of people's choices. If you choose that that's not your, what you

want to be doing, that's totally fine. Just make sure that you understand the research it's being done. Like I always think about Dr. Lisa Mascone and her work about brain and cognitive health and the impact of the loss of estradiol signaling and progesterone and testosterone and the brain and elsewhere in the body. It's like, make sure you're making a fully informed decision and working with someone that can help you decide with you what's the best choice for you. Yeah. And she's been on this podcast before. Huge fan, for those that don't know, brain researcher, like literally like dissecting open brains. Yeah. Wrote the book, The XX Brain and really helping make the connection and answer the question

of why are women more likely to get certain types of these diseases, especially when it comes to cognitive decline, et cetera. In the past, they thought, oh, is it because women are living longer? And no, when you account for that, it's not the case. So now hormones and the interplay of them, when they're out of balance, can significantly impact, as you're mentioning your mom, and other people have seen this too, can significantly impact the health of, in this case, we're talking about women and their brains. It's great work that she's doing. We'll link to the episode below for people to check it out. But it's great to hear you connect those dots for people because that's how important it is. Even still, if somebody doesn't choose to go down the route

of bioidentical hormones, I think it's a good reminder that, you know, you may not know your, maybe you haven't had your hormones looked at in a while. And if you've gotten your basic hormones done, as you mentioned, some of them are great on blood, but some of them you may need to use something like a Dutch test, you know, neither one of us have an affiliation, but it's a test that a lot of functional medicine practitioners, integrative practitioners used to really get an accurate idea of how hormones, both for men and women, are actually showing up inside of the body. And I think it's really important. There's nothing more sad to me than when women say to me on social media, my doctor told me, because I'm in menopause, I don't have to check my hormones.

And I said, I can't think of a more harmful statement to make to your patient. What harm does it do to check their hormones, to know exactly where they are. Because many women didn't know until they were 60 or 65 that they even had the option because no one's talking to their patients, or at least consistently providers are not comfortable having those conversations. And so if a woman decides that they don't want to do bioidenticals, that's okay. But understand there's other things that you can do to maintain metabolic health, which are going to put you in a better situation heading into perimenopause and menopause. And I think it really bears. to have these open conversations.

Like if really 7 to 8% of our population is metabolically healthy, it's like we need to change what we're doing. We need to change the conversations we're having with our patients. We need to be brave enough to say, sometimes we don't know the answers. I used to say that all the time. I would say, hold on, I'm going to figure out that. I'm going to figure that quite that answer out for you. But having enough confidence in the fact that you are going to be able to help your patients

in different ways, but to just dig our heads in the sand and pretend that we don't have an epidemic of obesity and metabolic disease. We're just perpetuating the problem. Let's talk about snacking for a second. Do you snack throughout the day? And are there times where you find yourself based on other things you're doing, working out or meal timing or what you're eating or traveling, that you are finding yourself snacking either more or less? But just start big picture. Your thoughts on snacking. I think snacking really, if you're really genuinely hungry in between meals, then you didn't put your meals together properly. Either you needed more protein, maybe a little more fat. We should be able to go four to five hours in between meals. Ideally,

that's what we should do for gut optimization, for the migrating motor complex, all these specific mechanisms that go on in the body. I'm human. Are there times when I'm doing podcast prep or I'm working in my business and I'm bored? And maybe I'm realizing like, Like, I'm thinking about maybe I have a thing for dark chocolate. I'm like, I'm thinking about the dark chocolate. I'm thinking about other things. Maybe I want something salty. It always speaks me back.

Like, it's always that kind of checking in with myself. Am I stressed? Am I bored? Am I overwhelmed? Like, why am I desiring to eat when I know I'm not hungry? Like, what's going on for me? So it's kind of that checking in. But certainly around the holidays, you know, I have an Italian mom.

There's a lot of food around the holidays. Am I perfect? And I don't have a snack in between during a holiday meal? I would be lying if I said no. But as a general rule, I don't believe we should be snacking. I think it really speaks to not setting up our macros properly and really understanding that if we're constantly eating, we're constantly secreting insulin in response to our blood sugar going up. And so I think that, you know, we've really set our patients up with this misunderstanding that we need to be eating to stoke our metabolism. We need to eat to keep our blood sugar stable. And what I generally recommend people do is that they really kind of lean into the fact that if they put their macros together, they shouldn't need to snack. In fact, my kids hate hearing me say that. I'm like, you shouldn't need to snack. You're old enough now. But I think for people that are listening, it's like slowly kind of understanding that you're going to be fine if you go four or five hours in between a meal. And if you're hungry,

obviously eat, but understand maybe, you know, reflect back on what that last meal was and what your macros were like at that time. So some people have this idea like, I'm just a grazer, right? That's who I am. You would say to them, and correct from wrong, well, first, let's look at your actual meal and see if you've gotten your macros, right? Which look like what? You know, just to, you shared it earlier, but if you could share it again. 40 to 50 grams of protein. So you're going to get your satiety hormones. You're going to be stimulated in most instances. You've got stretch receptors in your stomach. Your stomach's going to just remind you, tell your brain, oh, by the way, you are full. And I always say if you get your macros put

together, you're going to be satiated. You're not going to be looking for more food afterwards. You're not going to be craving carbs or sugary things. And so understanding that it takes time to figure out what that meal looks like for you and to feel comfortable and confident pulling that band-aid off and stopping snacking. But when you think about the grazing concept, again, it's like we really want to eat a food bowless, let our bodies, you know, our blood sugar will go up depending on what our macros are. Insulin is secreted to bring that blood sugar back down. But we don't want to be doing that all day long. We want there to be two or maybe three times in a day that our insulin is secreted as opposed to, I think the latest study I was

looking at it was Sachin panda, pandas group was, you know, six to ten times a day people are eating. And that's not even accounting for sugar sweet and beverages, which is a whole separate tangential rabbit hole of conversation. But I think for a lot of people, it's with the understanding that they need to eat less often to be able to better stabilize their blood sugar. Your mom, you're an entrepreneur. There's times where you get busy. You might miss a meal. If you do end up needing a snack, what are your go-to components that still, honor all the principles that you teach. Oh, my total go-toes, high-quality beef jerky and salted macadamia nuts.

And it's a joke that every time I travel, my team's like, I know there's going to be a photo said, beef jerky and salted macadamia nuts. I think that's an easy thing. I definitely like apples, although sometimes they can get brews when I'm traveling or even like a Clementine. I love salty things. So, you know, sometimes I'll pack olives, something that's got a little bit of fat, but always looking for a little bit of protein with that.

But those are typically hard-boiled eggs. There's usually things that I'll lean into that I know are going to – you get to a point, you eat enough beef jerky, you're going to be full. You eat enough hard-boiled eggs, you're going to be full. You're not going to keep looking for other things to eat. But those are the things that work really well for me. So now let's go to – because you put these focus on the macros for lunch, what does a typical lunch look like for you?

And are you making it? Are you ordering it? How does it all go down? Well, I have a husband who's an engineer. And so he has kind of taken over meal prep in our house, which is both hilarious and disturbing because I cooked everything until I became an entrepreneur. And then he just said, we're either going to have to hire someone or I'm just going to have to step in and he's too frugal. So there's a lot of meal prep that's done in our house. So I'm usually reheating something.

You know, I've been doing a lot of egg roll in a bowl recently. We do it with ground bison, a lot of hard boiled eggs, deviled eggs, left over steak, leftover bison, leftover steak, leftover bison, leftover, you know, shrew. shredded chicken, usually a non-starchy vegetable. So for me, it's usually a grab and go. Like, what can I heat up or what can I eat quickly? I don't do a lot of salads midday. I just find that for me, I want, like, a good size of, like, animal-based protein and maybe, like, asparagus or broccoli or whatever I have that's handy. And that's usually what I do. And that allows me to then, like, okay, I take 20 to 30 minutes to eat my lunch because I'm totally decompressed. And then I go back to working and that allows me to feel great.

Okay. Fast forward from there. You have obviously work, family duties, other components. You mentioned you don't nap, but sometimes if you do find yourself tired, you might have to do that and then you're thinking about, okay, how do I zoom out from my schedule? What do I need to maybe, you know, uncommit to or recommit to? And what do I need to double down on when it comes to my routine? Are there any other tools in the toolbox separate from napping that you use to help you right around that like so many people, and this is one of the questions we got, right around like three or four o'clock, people are feeling often low energy or their brain is a little bit fried. Do you ever experience that? And even if you don't, what are your tips and suggestions for folks?

Not often, but it's like checking it with myself, have I hydrated today? Did I have electrolytes? Sometimes I just need a change of scenery. I'm like, I'll get out and take a walk, whether I have a dog with me or not, because we have two. A lot of it involves like getting outside and walking. because I find that I need that like mental flip because if not I can just keep working. I can be just very tunnel vision. You've been sitting too long. I'm sitting too long and I don't like to sit. I'm someone that likes to be either at a standing desk or just moving around. You know, we have a lot of stairs in my house. So I'm up down doing different things just to kind of break up the monotony of the day. But when I start to feel that way, it's like I need a change in scenery. I'm also checking in because if people are looking for caffeine in the afternoon, sometimes that's when they're looking for a coffee or an espresso or a candy bar. It's like, okay, what was your lunch like? It's always reflecting back on what did I eat for lunch. Did I not eat enough? Am I sleep deprived? And that's what's driving some of these desires to, you know, to be looking for ways to boost my energy. But I find more often than not, it's really a dehydration and a need to kind of like be in a different scenery, even if it's for 15 minutes. It's amazing how much better I will feel if I take a 15 minute walk, which for me is, you know, one loop around our street and then head back home. That can be life changing. Or the other thing is just sometimes decompose. impressing and saying, I need a break, let me go read a book, let me look at something for pleasure,

not like a book that you have to read because you have a podcast coming up, but something you do for pleasure or taking 15 minutes and maybe calling a loved one, just getting yourself out of that, you know, kind of changing up what you're doing. So let's talk about hydration. How much water do you shoot for in the day? Are you tracking it? And then one of the questions that we got was, are there any pros and cons to drinking lemon water just throughout the day and also a little bit of a tangent while fasting in particular.

Okay. How much water do I drink a day? I don't track it, but I do have a glass water bottle in my kitchen. And that allows me to just visually see how well have I done today? Because for me, I'm very sensitive to hydration. I don't think I put two and two together when I was younger, but I started to realize part of why I got migraines in my teens, 20s, 30s, and beyond was because it was a hydration piece. So for me, it's very important. I stay hydrated, which is laughable because when I

travel, I am like a camel because I don't want to have to go to the bathroom as often. So it becomes a challenge. I would say for someone that's doing a clean fast, technically if you're squeezing lemon into your water in a fasted state, technically there's fructose in the lemon. But if you're not someone that's metabolically unhealthy, like don't not enjoy lemon water. Just understand that if you're aiming for a clean fast, maybe just use it in your fasting window or your feeding window. I love lemon. I'm obsessed with lemon. I squeeze it in my water during my feeding window.

It just allows my water to taste less plain. And with that being said, I think that for a lot of people that are new to fasting as one example, when they're chronically dehydrated, that's when they start craving more foods. They feel really tired. They might have cramping, and a lot of it can be related to not having electrolytes on board. So that's the other kind of piece that I generally like to suggest is that people are using electrolytes if they are fasting. And not to be scared about electrolytes. We're replacing the things our bodies are losing naturally through perspiration, breathing, et cetera.

And certainly if someone is like low carb as an example, they're going to get more renal losses of sodium by virtue of the fact they're releasing glycogen, which is stored sugar from their muscles as another example. So if someone's fasting, are they adding electrolytes to sort of all their water throughout the, day, and if they're not fasting, I'm asking because some of these electrolytes these days taste so good, even if they don't have sugar in them, that people are just adding in them all the time? Any challenges with that that you see? Are you okay with that? I think clean electrolytes are certainly important. So understanding what's in them, you know, reading the ingredient list, if it says it has, you know, gosh, someone showed me that their electrolytes had sucralose in it. And I was just trying to explain. I was like, I don't want to be the

bearer bad news, but if you look at the research on non-nutrative sweeteners, you may want to consume less of them than more, just being really deliberate about picking a high-quality product. I encourage people to experiment. So as an example, there's a brand that I like, and I probably, beyond my own brand, I probably have three of those packets while I'm traveling because it allows me to monitor how much I'm drinking, how much water I'm drinking. But I do find for people one to two servings of electrolytes a day, I think, are reasonable. Obviously, if you're in a very hot, humid environment, if you're doing a lot of exercise,

a lot of physical labor, you may need more. We lose electrolytes just with stress, and we have profoundly magnesium-deployed soil. So most of us need electrolytes. It's just a question of, you know, what do people want to do? You know, sometimes people will balk at costs like, oh, gosh, it's expensive. And I always say, well, how many coffee drinks are you drinking a week? And how many, you know, sodas, hopefully no one's drinking soda on the regular, but how many sodas are people consuming in a week?

And it's really about prioritization. So I think most people can benefit, and I say this from a cardiology perspective, I find most people can benefit from repletion of electrolytes. It's a little bit of trial and error to find what works best for you. I probably drink electrolytes throughout the day. They're not always sweetened. So that's always a concern. People will say, well, even if it's stevia, should I be having that all day long? And I would say I think a lot of it depends on your metabolic health.

Are you at a healthy weight? Are you insulin sensitive? Are you sleeping well, you know, able to exercise, et cetera? you can probably get away with a couple packets of stevia sweetened electrolytes a few times a day versus someone if they're sugar addicted and that's very triggering then let's find other opportunities to replete without the sweeteners added so let's talk about fasting for a second zooming out when you look at your month and you think about fasting just as a big picture how do you think about incorporating it into your schedule and your routine, whether it's the daily components of it

with the time restricted eating or if there's targeted times, you're like, you know what, I'm going to go on a little bit of a longer fast. I think a lot of it is dependent on what my stress level is like because I'm very cognizant of the net impact of hormesis in general. So am I going to push that lever and have a hard workout? And I didn't. My sleep wasn't great. Do I want to fast longer?

Probably not. So I think my big picture is intuitive fasting. And I recognize I've been doing this for a long time. But as an example, I mean, yesterday I had a very small dinner just by virtue. We went to a place where there were like tapas type things. So I didn't get a lot of protein in. So I broke my fast before this podcast because I was like, okay, I'm hungry this morning. And I know I'm legitimately hungry.

And I've got kind of a long kind of scheduled day. So I think a lot of it is looking at your schedule to get a sense of, you know, does it make more sense to break your fast a little early, have a good amount of healthy food, and then power through your workday, and then at the end of the day, have another meal. So I think my overall prevailing strategy is just to kind of objectively look at what's going on. Do I have days where I have one meal a day? Yes. Do I want that to be my normal? No. But sometimes whether it's due to travel, whether it's due to business commitments, I'm sure for you, same thing happens. Some days you're just scheduled from the moment you get up to the moment you go to bed. And it's like trying to figure out,

like where can I fit this opportunity to eat a meal? And so I think that giving yourself grace, giving yourself flexibility, not being rigid are really, really important variables as it pertains to fasting. And then just being honest with yourself, is your sleep terrible? Do you have a house full of house guests and you're stressed to the max? Have you not been to the gym in a week? Have you been eating a bunch of processed crap that you don't normally eat? Well, then you might be able to kind of have some wiggle room. Maybe you just have 12 hours of digestive rest, which everyone benefits from. I always say that 12 hours of digest arrest is not going to hurt anyone, but sometimes there's times to dial back on fasting and times to lean into it. And it really is

dependent on your schedule. Do you, at this point in time of your life, do you do longer fast? No. And I think I may have alluded to this in the past is that in 2019, I had this long hospitalization. Yeah. And for me, from that point forward, I was like, it's taking me so long to build back the muscle I lost, that I'm very reluctant to do really long fast. I haven't done more than a 30-hour fast in three years. And I feel pretty good based on my own reading and talking to other practitioners in the space that are fasting embracers, that there's a law of diminishing returns in terms of really prolonged fast and being able to maintain muscle at my stage of life. Like at 30, it would have been different.

At 51, I have to embrace the fact that I have to work really hard at the muscle I have and maintain it. And I'm not willing to lose it to the expense of being able to say I did a four-day fast. Right. And a lot of people are interested in fasting because you mentioned, you know, again, 88% of Americans being metabolically and healthy, which usually goes along with having excess fat in the body. And so some people are looking for that way to reduce the.

of fat. In your case, what I'm hearing also is that you're at a healthy weight and you're really focused on making sure that you don't lose that lean muscle mass, which is why you're not embarking on longer fast at the time. Is that accurate to say? That is accurate. And I think sometimes people are disappointed to hear me say that, but it shows you on the scale of like trying to find some degree of balance, which I said already balance is elusive, is deciding that for me personally, because I am metabolically flexible at a healthy weight, I'm not willing to endanger what muscle mass I have because it's taken so long to put it back on. But I would agree with you that a lot of people that are looking to change body composition, lose weight, get healthier, their bodies have

plenty of ability to be able to adapt to longer periods without eating because they have stored energy. But also in conjunction with that, they should be working with someone to help determine how to best build lean muscle. with strength training, adequate protein, you know, appropriate use of fasting. And I say appropriate because, you know, sometimes people get in this kind of mindset of more is better. If more fasting is better than more exercise is better than more restriction is better. And I always say that's not what we're aiming for. We talked about this in the first one, but just because, you know, in the context of people listening now, if somebody's literally starting from zero, they are finding them.

where they want to improve their body composition, the first step towards fasting for them would be what? Stop snacking. Stop snacking. The most important thing. Literally, that's step number one. That's step number one because it's going to force you to restructure your macros. So even if you're still eating three meals a day, in order to go from, you know, breakfast

to lunch and lunch to dinner and not be hungry because before you were leaning into that granola bar or that frappuccino or the candy, whatever it was you were eating in between, now you're have to eat a little more protein, a little less carbs, adjust the fat dial, to be able to get from one meal to the next, and to be able to do so and not be hungry. And I think for many people, once they are able to feel satiated, they're like, okay, now I can do this. It gives people the confidence to allow themselves to process the fact that this is doable. I love it. Okay, we're going to go, we still got to come back to your schedule, but we have a few more kind of just quick questions that we're going to go through to get your sort of hot takes on.

Okay. Okay. So I'm going to tee you up with the first one, and that is alcohol. Talk to us about alcohol and Cynthia's hot take on it. What you want people to know? You know, this is kind of a landmine. For full disclosure, I don't drink. Yeah.

I have not over the almost last three years. And it's a personal decision. So this is a very personal decision for everyone. How long ago was the hospitalization again? 2019. So did it kind of coincide with that event in your life? No, it was probably, so we're almost, almost three years since the pandemic started. So it was around that time when I was, you know, suddenly our world was just the four of us and we weren't going out.

And I was just a social drinker. Like I might have a martini. I might have a glass of wine. I was never a big drinker. So you were having it maybe like two to four times a month. If that, if that. Okay. So maybe zero to two times a month.

Yeah. So not a lot. But it destroyed my sleep. And my sleep, as I was saying, every time you do it. Every time I did it. So this is like the score. of middle-aged women. And I don't mean to keep belittling the point about middle-aged women, but it's something that no one ever talked about. I'd never heard anyone talking about this.

But we know it can erode your sleep quality. It can disrupt melatonin secretion. It's prioritized as a toxin in the body. So, you know, all the other things that you're eating while you're drinking, kind of there's like a screeching halt as your body's trying to prioritize the toxin. And there's no judgment. If people do choose to drink alcohol, it's just not part of my lifestyle anymore. Again, I was never a drinker, but my sleep quality is far more important. Like, on the hierarchy of things of importance in my life, the, you know, 30 minutes of enjoying that martini is going to have such a detrimental impact on my sleep quality that I'm not just not willing to do it. And what I found really liberating is that there are so many other people in the health and wellness

space as I started articulating that I'm no longer drinking alcohol, I started to realize there's a lot of us. And so that was really liberating to know because my entire life I'd been made fun of college, post-college, high school about not drinking alcohol, a lot of which was influenced by my father who's an alcoholic, longstanding alcoholic. But I always say to people, there's no judgment. Just kind of examine what alcohol, what purpose it is in your life. Is it improving your quality life? Then great. If it's not, then maybe take a break. I mean, I don't ever feel pressured socially about not drinking.

I think other people feel uncomfortable. And so that then starts these conversations where I have to say, I'm totally good. I can have sparkling water with a splash of kombucha and a lime and no one knows the difference. But it makes other people uncomfortable because they feel like they have to make accommodations. I'm like, I'm great with water. I'm totally fine. I'm good, so don't worry about me. So I think for each one of us, it's understanding like what's our relationship with alcohol?

How does it impact our health? I find for most middle-aged women, there's very much this strong drinking culture and people feel a lot of pressure. They go to these mom events and there's so much alcohol being consumed and then people are wrecked the next day. It's a little bit almost like part of the identity of like being a mother is so hard, which it is, right? Especially if people are having kids later on in life and these all these memes of, you know, like finally like that glass of wine when the kids are asleep. which I understand the sort of narrative around it, and there's so much compassion for how tough it is to be, you know, a mother. And then how tough it is to just be a human being in this day and age,

even if somebody isn't a mother. But it's so baked into this idea of a reward, the same way that we would give kids kind of like a snack or a sweet treat. It's kind of seen in that same capacity. No, and I would agree with you. And what's ironic is I never perceived being a mom in that way. Like, oh, I have to drink a glass of alcohol. And it's not a pejorative statement.

It's just that was like I'd rather have a piece of chocolate. I'd rather have some dark chocolate. That might be the thing I'm thinking about as I'm watching, you know, something on Netflix. Like, oh, I'm finally getting five minutes a piece. I'm going to have my dark chocolate. But I think for each one of us, it's acknowledging if we're feeling like we need to let a release valve off, like what else do we need to be doing in our personal lives to be able to feel fulfilled and to be able to feel like we can decompress and to do it in a healthy way?

because I actually stopped doing a lot of these mom groups because it was like I was always like, I have to go to work in the morning and I need my brain to be functioning at 1,000 percent because if I make a mistake with a patient, you know, the potentiality of there being a problem would be huge. So I'm like, I can't drink and just go home and go to bed. Like, that's just not part of my lifestyle. So I think it's really examining like, how do you find opportunities to decompress in your personal life? Maybe it's that you hire a babysitter for an hour so you can go take a walk.

by yourself. Maybe it's asking your mom or your husband to come home one hour early from work so that you have a little bit of time to yourself. And I think we as women feel such a sense of we're always giving to others. It's sometimes we feel guilty acknowledging that we need to give to ourselves. You mentioned previously, and this is kind of one of the questions here, not exactly, but I want to tie them together. You mentioned you're a recovering people pleaser. What were some of the biggest insights that you had of what your motivation for people pleases? pleasing was and how you got over it? I think it stems from my childhood.

So my parents were divorced and an alcoholic father and a mom who, you know, my parents did the very best that they could. This is not being judgmental of my parents. But I learned very early on that if I was perfect, that I didn't cause problems. I didn't add to my parents' stress. And so I was that perfect kid. I got good grades. I had great friends.

You know, I had the perfect boyfriend. I had the perfect girlfriends. And so the people pleasing started in. an effort to make people around me feel comfortable. I mean, that was... How do I keep the peace alive? Right. Let me just be...

Yeah, I don't like to argue. I'm just not one of those people. And so it stemmed from that. And it's taken many, many years to understand why I did those things. But it was so I could exist in this environment that was otherwise uncontrolled. And so it wasn't until, gosh, probably I'd be a transition to being an entrepreneur. I was like, why was I such a successful nurse? Why was I such a successful nurse practitioner?

Because I was people-pleasing all the time, giving the patients exactly what they wanted, telling my docs I was working with. I mean, it was all factual. It wasn't like I was pretending to just be someone that I wasn't. But I was always like figuring out what other people needed all the time, like make the situation less stressful, make it easier for everyone else. And it wasn't until I became an entrepreneur. And I couldn't sustain that. It just wasn't realistic. And so I started, it was a lot of growth.

painful process. I'm a huge proponent of people doing therapy and I've done therapy throughout my lifetime and it was really acknowledging where did that behavior stem from? How do I mitigate those uncomfortable feelings now? Because it's okay if people don't like me and it's okay if people don't agree with me. I don't want that to be the case, but it's going to happen. I'm not going to be everything to everyone. But to me it's been profoundly freeing to care less about making everyone else happy. What toll did it take on you at different stages? You mentioned it kind of started since you were young, but what did you have to sacrifice for you or what told did it take for you being a people beiser? I often find that when we get present to the toll that it takes on our life, that's one

component of us realizing like, are we willing to give up on our goals and dreams just to look the part for everybody else? And by the way, they're not even thinking about us half the time anyway. Yeah. Well, I think it's a number of things. And I think it's for me, because of my circumstances, I think it's like there's multiple variables that have contributed to this behavior. I think part of it was my parents getting divorced when I was very young and, you know, they lived in different states and my parents weren't great communicators. So I was always the friction in the, in the middle. I definitely think I've been fortunate that I've had wonderful girlfriends throughout my lifetime. I do think that I probably didn't advocate enough for

myself when I was younger. I just, you know, kind of went along with my crowd of humans. And the people I was friends with in high school were very similar to the sorority I was in in college. And so it was like I was very safe kind of with people that were identifying with one particular attribute. But then I realized it wasn't, I didn't have, there wasn't a lot, there was lacking a lot. There was substance was lacking. And so it wasn't until I went to grad school that I started being around people that were more like me that I started to realize I was like, oh, I've been like dumbing myself down. I've not been like challenging myself as intellectually as I should have been all these years, not realizing that I just kind of stayed safe and comfortable at first probably 20

years of my life. And then I always say like the next 20 years of my life, we're really focused on challenge myself intellectually, being around people who challenged me a lot in a good way, in a healthy way, and advocating for myself in a way that I demanded more people, that I wasn't just going to be, going along with the flow, like, oh, I'll just do what everyone else wants to do. And certainly that steeped into relationships. And it's probably why I met my husband when I was 30, got married to 32. But I always said there were so many good reasons why things didn't work out when I was younger. I'm like, oh, thank God. You know, things that seemed like such a big time, such a big deal at the time. And then you realize after the fact, you're like, wow, I'm so grateful that none of those things worked out

because the person I was meant to be with was someone I was going to meet in my 30s and not, you know, know, like 20. How many of my friends got married to the person they dated in high school or college? And I was not that person. And I'm so grateful for that. A great reminder that like, sometimes things don't work out on the timeline that we wanted to, but there could be many different reasons why that's the case that could be beneficial for us in the long term. Oh, I look at it as such a blessing. Like even now, I always say to my team, when things don't work the way we want them to the first time around, I'm like, the universe is telling us this isn't the right time to either push this program, this concept, this other idea. It's like, let's take a step back.

Let's think a little bit more thoughtfully about this. Is the universe protecting us, you know, protecting us in a way that it's allowing us to wait for other opportunities that are coming? Related to this, we have another mindset question, which is when people get started down this path, especially if they're starting from square one, it can feel like there's a lot of things for them to focus on. And inevitably, there's going to be some part that we don't get right. That's actually part of being a human being. And even by the way, I think you would say, and I would say, like, there's plenty of stuff that we don't get, quote, unquote, right now, but we're not beating ourselves up about it. What this question is about is that how do you not beat yourself up? Or if you

have a history of being unkind to yourself when you, quote, unquote, fall off the wagon, which I don't even love that phrase, but that's what's being used here. Any suggestions for that individual? Oh, gosh. I mean, I think it's a constant reframe. That negative. self-talk can be so damaging. And so instead of saying, you know, I was so stupid, how did that not work out? It's like, same thing I was saying earlier. The universe is letting me know this is now not the right time to do X. However, I've learned so much from this experience. So giving yourself grace, understanding that there are variables at play that are gently guiding us in the direction we're supposed to. I am not perfect. In fact, I try to show people on social media or talk on social

media talking podcasts about the fact that I don't get it all right all the time. You know, I got stuck, I've gotten stuck in airports and I've been stuck eating protein bars and things I don't want to eat because there's no options. And I don't beat myself up. I just say, okay, today, X happened. Tomorrow's a new day. It's always an opportunity. Tomorrow is the next day. Tomorrow is a fresh opportunity to get back on track. Whether it's you, you know, eat junk from Halloween to New Year's Eve and you feel like, oh my gosh, what did I do? My pants are tight. Don't beat yourself up. It's like, you know, you're going to get back on track on January 2nd. It's like you're going to take the first step in that direction that's going to allow you an opportunity to do better than you did the day before.

But I always think you have to – I tell my kids this and they hate it, but how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. And so I have to remind myself of that constantly, even as an entrepreneur, it's like when I look at my schedule and I feel overwhelmed, I'm like, all right, what's the next thing I need to do? And that's what I need to focus on. and then what's the next thing I need to do? And so really compartmentalizing when you need to mentally and then giving yourself grace because even I don't get it right, you can ask my husband at times. I'm like, boy, I totally miss that.

And I just let it roll off my back. I think as I've gotten all there, I've just learned giving yourself grace is one of the most important things you can do. Yeah. And how often are the voices that are in our head, we often think that that's our thoughts. But it could be the thought of a disapproving parent. It could be a thought of a loving parent who simply you saw. be hypercritical on themselves and because you cared about them and they were constantly scrutinizing

something that was wrong about themselves you internalized that oh that's what people do you know who I look up to they're hypercritical so I'm going to do that you know it wasn't a conscious decision but it can become an unconscious subconscious decision that's there and a lot of these voices that we have in our head are not us they're just these random little thoughts that are there which is why it's so powerful when we can start watching them and actually just throwing a little phrase at the end of it or a little word with with a question mark which is maybe right like I don't look the way that I want to maybe right or I am stupid you know just throwing it maybe I'm not even telling people to say no and now with another affirmation just question the thought you have and realize that

it actually may not be you who's thinking it could be something else that's in Well, I think that's really important is the understanding that we have this constant opportunity to reframe our thoughts. You know, it's not in stone. And I think for all of us, unknowingly, innocuously throughout our lifetimes, we've had people around us who've been critical. Sometimes we kind of absorb what's been stated to us and we really take it to heart. We're wounded or we have a trauma, you know, a wound that hasn't healed. But I think what I can share with listeners is that each one of us has profound opportunities to create the life that we want. And so part of that and most of it stems from our mindset.

And so there's so many amazing resources that are out there, whether it's reading a book, listening to a podcast, you know, working with a professional if you feel like you really need help with your mindset. People understand there are options. They don't have to stay stuck, you know, and their negative thoughts, if that's challenging for them. So we have a question about caffeine. And I'd love for you to get a chance to chat about that.

How do you think about caffeine? And if you could talk about it in the context of just your normal day to day, and then also in relationship, because you're such a big educator on fasting, in relationship to when people are including inside of a fast. Caffeine is a interesting subject. Obviously, I talk a lot about the benefits of polyphenol rich foods like caffeine, sorry, like coffee or green tea or bitter teas. I have struggled as an adult to enjoy the taste of coffee, like to the point where I just don't drink it at all, which is fine. Were you ever into coffee?

No. I managed to work nights in hospitals for years and never drank coffee. That's huge. So occasionally I have green tea, but I do think caffeine does a lot. of benefits if you're looking at the research and looking at cognition. I mean, today's a good example. I was like, I'm going to have green tea today because I've got a longer day. I've got a long span of time where I need to be able to draw upon, you know, my mental

focus and faculties and everything else. I think caffeine can be helpful. I think there are people who metabolize caffeine slowly. There are others that metabolize it quickly. I happen to be a fast metabolizer based on this, you know, nutrigenomics test I took over the summer. I think fast metabolizer meaning that you put caffeine to work very yes very readily in my body and there's people who are slow metabolizers which caffeine hangs around in their system a lot longer

and if you've ever done a 23 in me test usually it's it's on there and there's a lot of other sort of advanced genetic testing that has it as well too but you can get a sense of stuff yeah and I think most people know if they're a slow metabolizer because they're the people that if they have a coffee at three o'clock in the afternoon they struggle to fall asleep and so understanding the interrelationate between caffeine and adenosine in the body. And as adenosine levels are rising, that's when people get sleepy. And so we know that the caffeine can have a detrimental net impact on adenosine levels. And so for some people, caffeine is a dual-edged sword. So if you're sensitive to caffeine or you're a slow metabolizer, you probably don't want to be drinking it after seven,

eight o'clock in the morning. I have a 15-year-old who loves espresso. I'm the most embarrassed to say this out loud, loves an Americano, and so he'll come up from school and he'll have two espressoes and he can go to bed at 10 o'clock at night. And so part of it's probably youth and part of it's probably just he's a unicorn and metabolizes it quickly. But I do think caffeine has properties that can be beneficial for memory and focus. They can be beneficial for if you're trying to ward off a bad night of sleep, but also finding balance in terms of determining what works best for you. I had patients that we're drinking eight, 12 ounces a day. And I would say, what do you think that says about your lifestyle? And they would say, why don't really sleep? And I was like, okay, well, why don't we work

on sleeping more and drinking less coffee? Because caffeine also has, you know, chronically, habitually, if you're drinking a lot of it, has some addictive properties or tolerance properties that can make it harder to wean off. I'm not anti-caffeine. I just think I don't ever want to be drinking coffee or drinking tea because I'm trying to make up for poor lifestyle choices. So I always say if I elect drink green tea, it's because I genuinely enjoy it. I'm doing it as kind of a process. It's warm. It tastes good. I'm just going to enjoy it as part of a strategy in my morning, but not something I do every day. It's really interesting because, you know, we, some people like to shop, some people don't, right? And even if you like to shop, if you need to shop every day

to function that's called a shopping addiction. And in that same way, sure, everybody loves a little bit of caffeine, but I think a good test is to go on a little bit of a caffeine break. We've written up a protocol before. We could put inside the show notes for people to check it out. It's just something that they can do. And that's something that I do probably every like two to three months. If you can't go like four days or a week without caffeine, it's just an indication, again,

no judgment that there might be something deeper that's there. And even still, if you can, it's still beneficial to take a break. And then to get back into it, anytime I do, I generally have about one cup of cold brew a day, like ice cold brew. But when I go off of caffeine, including Yerba Mote or cold brew, when I get back into it, I'm at like a half the amount that I had because it has so much more of an impact. And I actually kind of like it that way. It's another powerful reason of incorporating fast into our caffeine schedule with a little bit of a break. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's really speaking to hormesis, you know, there's beneficial plant-based compounds that can push that hormesis lever forward.

But I love that you have kind of integrated into your lifestyle, that you kind of have a check-in point. Like, okay, let's see. Am I drinking too much? You know, a little bit is, you know, perfect for me. I love the ideal cold brew. That's definitely like, I keep saying I endeavor at some point to be able to enjoy cold brew. I'm like, I'm going to work that direction. And if it's, if you don't like it, it's okay, too, right?

I think you mentioned the beneficial polyphenols, and caffeine is regularly reported as being the top source of polyphenols for people. But also, you know, it's a little funny if the major source of polyphenols in your diet is coming from coffee. That is the state of America. Yeah. And it's probably an indication that we need a little bit more healthy, colorful plant, you know, vegetables inside of our diet. No judgment, but just probably some indication that we need a little bit more fruits and vegetables in our diet. No, and I couldn't agree more. And that's why I think there needs to be a variety.

You know, we don't want to be, I always say like monogamy is good, but we don't want to just eat the same foods every day or the same beverages every day or do the same type of fasting schedule or the same exercise every day. Our bodies really thrive on changing things up. And so much to your point about the breaks that you take from consuming certain, you know, beverages over time, I think that's really powerful. You are pretty active on social media and you have a good pulse of kind of the world of health. in general, right? You're on top of it. You're always reading. Are there any kind of health trends that are happening today or sort of things that are kind of viral at the moment that you kind of sit back and you're like, oh, I need to really sort of like set the record straight on this? Anything that's out there right now that you feel that you'd like to kind of

comment on that may be a little bit misguided in its approach that a lot of people are either undergoing or undertaking. Anything that comes to mind? I think because I was talking to my 15-year-old about this the other day, about everything related to Liver King and trying to talk to teenagers about the fact that, you know, as an example, yes, nutrient-dense foods like organ meats are beneficial. Could you give a little background? Because I'm pretty familiar with the whole thing that happened, but a lot of people are like, liver what? Okay, so Liver King is this prolific character who's on social media.

A real person. He's a real person. And I say character in that he appears to be a character and that he's funny. Maybe not from his own he wants to intentionally be funny. But he is very buff and, you know, has a beard and eats, you know, like bull testicles and, you know, lifts heavy things. Raw liver. Yes. And, you know, the conversation started my 15-year-old.

And I said, well, show me who this person is. And so I checked out his social media. And I was like, hmm, okay. I mean, he's a character. It was like, good for him that he's eating all these raw organs and loves it, and that's fantastic. But the blowback about Liver King was that people realized that, I don't know how they didn't know this already, but people realize that he takes quite a bit of exogenous anaerobox steroids and growth hormone and a bunch of other things.

And, you know, the conversation with my teenager was really about transparency. And I said, I don't, it doesn't bother me. If people choose to do those things, there's no judgment on my part, but just be transparent. because just eating raw organ meats is not going to give you that look. Like when I looked at him as a clinician, through my clinician eyes, I was like, oh, he's taking steroids, but that's not my business. It's never my business. But trying to, you know, explain to my 15-year-old, like, he was like, well, how did you

know? And so we had to have these conversations about things that I could see clinically and just explain to him that, you know, there's nothing wrong with doing that, but just trying to be transparent. So I think for me, in context of your question, is just that you. just people being transparent and honest about what they're doing, whether it's smoke and mirrors on social media or the messages they're trying to share with others. It's just being clear about it isn't that this guy just ate organ meats to have a body like that. He probably does work out

hard. I have no doubt. And he probably does eat a pretty healthy diet. I've no doubt. But it's not just the organ meats that are making him look that way. And so that was the conversation that I had with my teenager who was asking a thousand questions because this is the first time he's experienced this. He was looking up to this guy and thought that, gosh, mom, you know, I need to eat, you know, more liver and I need to eat more of this. And can we get, you know, he's like asking me about spleen. I'm like, I'm not sure you want to eat spleen. I was like, I respect people to do. But I'm not sure that's what you want to be doing. And that's probably the biggest thing right now. I would say the other thing for me is, you know, people just being showing up authentically on social media.

It's for me having the honor and the privilege to be able to meet so many people in this space. 99.9% of them are as authentic as they appear to be on social media. And then you get a couple where you scratch your head and you're like, okay, you know, people just showing up in a way that they're transparent and honest about what they're doing. Like I, as an example, just to be fully transparent, I think I've been doing Botox for like 12 years. And people will ask me like, what are your thoughts on Botox?

And I was like, well, I want to be honest and say that. I've been doing Botox for 12 years, and I started just to raise an eyebrow. I think everyone has to make their own decisions. But I think more and more people just being, if they're being asked, just to be authentic. Like, Liver King is the example. He wasn't surprising me that he was using anabolic steroids. And again, no judgment. But it's one of those things where it's like people showing up as influencers who try to pretend that it's like this one thing they're doing that has all the reasons why they look the way they do. And it's like, okay, it's a little more complicated than that. Yeah, no, that's a great lesson.

And so your son isn't gorging spleen? No. In fact, I think when we had a conversation, I have friends that have written cookbooks about carnivore-ish kinds of diets. And I said, of the organs, because I grew up with an Italian mother and my mother made beef liver every week and gave us bacon and onions. And my brother and I just ate the bacon and onions because liver has a very metallic taste. And to kids, your pallets are so much more sensitive than they are as adults. It was never something I loved. And so I was saying, you know, if you're gateway to organ meats, you know, what do you recommend?

And they were saying, well, heart tends to be a little more easily tolerated. Liver, of course, can be a little metallic. But they were like leaning into heart or like chicken hearts or things like that. You just cook them up. And I was like, okay, maybe we'll try that. But I love it. Great. Perfect.

I want to go back to a couple of the things that you had mentioned earlier to kind of build some layers on. You said that four people who are literally starting from step number one, just not snacking and focusing on their macros is going to be a huge, first of all, it's going to be the first step, but it's going to help them majorly head in the right direction, right? If that's number one, what's number two? Well, usually it's the snacking and changing macros. And then it's going from not eating from dinner to breakfast. And for a lot of people, that's terrifying. What do you mean? I don't snack after dinner. I don't get a snack. I don't get to have a glass of wine. I don't get to have a piece of dessert. No. Dinner to breakfast, which for some people can be 13, 14,

hours. And it's the realization that they can do it and they're not going to die overnight and they're going to wake up in the morning and actually feel pretty good. And most people aren't actually hungry when they wake up. So they're like, wow, I went 13 hours without eating. This is fantastic. I can do this. Yeah. And it's not like we're talking about like Jenny Craig Weight Watchers, like you're using all this willpower. You're actually fundamentally saying when you feed your body with the right stuff, you're just not finding yourself hungry. Now, initially there may be emotional component of it. You mentioned there's a lot of reasons why people eat that are separate to hunger. But once you kind of get into it, you're just finding yourself not hungry. It's not willpower.

Right. And I think it's it's one of those really profoundly powerful realizations that people understand your body has all the things it needs to do fine, not eating while you're sleeping. We're not eating from 6 o'clock at night until 8 o'clock in the morning. Your body genuinely other than hydrating and you can have coffee, you can have tea. Your body does just fine not eating. And I think we've been telling our patients for so many years, you know, eat to stoke your metabolism, eat snacks in between so that your blood sugar stays stable. And so it's really, you know, helping to reverse cognitive dissonance, which I think is really, really powerful. Oh, I love that. A couple more things that we have over here that are just good clarifications.

You know, we talked so much in our first episode and a little bit in this about the power of intermittent fasting that's there. And one of the questions we got in was, what about intermittent fasting while breastfeeding and producing an abundant milk supply? You know, just a good opportunity for you to like clarify things. Yeah, I'm not a fan of fasting when women are pregnant or breastfeeding because you're either growing a human or feeding a human. And I know back in the days a thousand years ago when I had newborns at home and I breastfed them for a year, you're voraciously hungry.

I mean, your body needs more discretionary calories at that point. than about any other time in your lifetime. And so I caution women, really genuinely caution women. If you want to produce nutrient dense, great breast milk, do not restrict your meals. You genuine, I have never been hungrier. And I jokingly remember my cousin who's no BGYN said, when you are breastfeeding, if you're doing it right, you are as hungry as a linebacker. And I don't think I've ever been able to eat so much food in my life. Like I look at my teenagers And I'm like, I remember being able to eat that much food. So I would caution women.

Pregnant and breastfeeding, no fasting. If you decide that you want to do 12 hours of digestive rest, you may be really, really hungry at the end of that 12 hours. But I would really caution women not to do that. Another question we have here is on the topic of sort of plant-based eating, how do you help and sort of navigate your people that are following you who have made the decision to be vegan or plant based and any kind of things that you would share with them about getting the amount of protein that's there and do they have to be supplementing or doing any kind of combination

to hit the type of macros that you're talking about. Yeah, that's a great question. Obviously, I respect if people are making that decision. I think the challenge is getting enough protein in along with not having a high amount of exogenous carbohydrate intake. And by that I mean I'm not a fan of soy. So I always just put it out there and I say I know people will focus in on soy, but I would rather. And could you explain why you're not a fan of soy? Yeah. I mean, most soy that's created here in the United States or made here in the United States is genetically modified.

A lot of the soy-based products, unless it's fermented miso or tempe, you're just exposed to lot of GMO byproducts and byproducts of the processed food industry. Soybean oil as an example, again, not per se a protein, is the number one consumed fat in the United States. And it's a byproduct of the processed food industry. So I'm generally not a huge fan of soy. With that being said, you know, when you start looking at the plant-based proteins, hemp hearts, you know, leaning into lentils and beans and things like that, if someone's already insulin

resistant. If someone's already metabolically unhealthy, it's going to be very challenging to get them to a certain level of protein intake and not overdo it with carbohydrates. You know, Gabrielle Lyon always does a great job talking about if you have an eight-ounce steak versus a certain amount of quinoa, you know, the steak is going to give you the amount of protein you need with, you know, no carbohydrates versus to get six cups of quinole, it's going to be an exorbitant amount of carbohydrates at a very reduced amount of protein intake. So I think there's a very delicate balance. I would really encourage people to, you know, work with a nutritionist or a clinician who's savvy to be able to make recommendations. Obviously, you know, I have a couple of coaches on my

team that are primarily plant-based. They do eat some animal-based protein. But examining, you know, do you eat eggs? Do you eat any dairy? If you're doing those, it can be helpful. I do have some, you know, lactovo vegetarians. And they get a little bit, and obviously, with the vegans, it's a little bit more challenging. So really examining, you know, where can you navigate getting sufficient amounts of protein and not having too many discretionary carbohydrates if you are indeed insulin resistant. What's interesting is you look at the research about needs for vegetarians and vegans. They're generally not getting enough creatine in their diets. And so those in particular are really at risk for not having enough creatine. And creatine monohydrate is

one of the most well-researched supplements that's out there, good solid research about brain health, muscle health, et cetera. Vegetarians and vegans need about five grams a day versus omnivores need about three grams a day. So understanding that that can be beneficial. Also, you know, looking at some of the B vitamins that can be helpful. But again, working with someone that's going to be able to do some testing to help navigate what's best for you. On the topic of supplementation, you mentioned that one of the ones that you include is melatonin. Recently, there's been a bunch of different things that are kind of on the top. topic of melatonin, is any of some of the research questioning, you know, how beneficial it is

or maybe the harmful sides, people are often confused. So just because you're kind of in the know on these things, do you have any concerns about any of that with melatonin? Yes, I do. And I think it's a great question. So my 15-year-old who I keep talking about, he wants to take melatonin. He's trying to explain me. I'm having trouble falling asleep and we're having to talk about sleep hygiene. He's 15. His body makes plenty of melatonin. I don't love younger people to be taking melatonin chronically because it could potentially impact your own endogenous secretion of melatonin. However, interestingly enough, I had a really great conversation with Dr. Kyle Gillette on my podcast, and he was saying women, north of 40, while men too, we don't

make as much endogenous melatonin as we want it. It's not only a sleep hormone, it's also a master antioxidant. So an adrenal pause, remember I was talking about this earlier when women are going through these transitions, maybe men, it's not as dramatic. I do start seeing a tremendous amount of value in supplementing melatonin. Now, it's supplementing the right amount at the right time. And we don't start with melatonin. It really has to start with those foundational sleep basics that I was alluding to earlier because I think so many of us, we're like, I just want to take a pill. Even in the wellness industry, there's this goal to just take a pill. Correct. And so I was have to caution people, like the lifestyle stuff still needs to be there because the, you know,

The supplement may not fix a problem that could have been fixed by, gosh, maybe you just need to get off electronics. Maybe you need some light exposure in the morning. Maybe, you know, do all those things first so you don't have to add a supplement if it's not necessary. For full disclosure, I take melatonin every night along with my progesterone, and it's had a huge net impact on my sleep quality. But I do that in the context of understanding as a middle-aged woman, I do benefit from taking exogenous melatonin, even though my body's just making less, much like everything else. So I do find that there's a lot of value, but I think a lot of it is in the context of other lifestyle choices in age range. So a 20-year-old should not need melatonin all the time. If you're 35 and you're traveling, so like there's good research on jet lag and utilization of melatonin.

I myself don't take melatonin when I travel because I've just found that with fasting, I'm able to kind of help my body get onto that time zone that I'm in much more readily and easily. but there's good solid research about melatonin utilization in jet lag. You know, most of the melatonin that people take is a synthetically creative melatonin. And a few years ago, I met these guys that created this company called Erbitonin. I have no affiliation with them. They're out of Australia. And then recently, one of my dear friends from the world of functional medicine community, Dr. Deanna Minnick, she's IFM, on like the board of educators and other things. she recently, I think, joined their company because she was so excited about the research that they were doing.

And she's been putting out a lot of content recently. Again, I have no affiliation with them about what happens when you go to a plant-based melatonin versus a synthetic melatonin. And it seems really interesting how there's some of the nuances that are there. I'll send it over to you to, you know, give it a read. But I'd love your take on it. But I use that occasionally. I'll use this plant-based melatonin. and everything that I've read from her makes me feel like, okay, I'm not as worried about some of the negative side effects, which I heard one time, Andrew Heerman talking on Joe Rogan podcast about shrinking men's testicles.

But it was rice. It was mice research that was done. But still, that adds in a little bit of caution. You're like, okay, cool, I need to look into this a little bit more. But I like the work that they've been doing at herbotone. And I need to dig into it. Maybe I'll have her on the podcast and chat a little bit more about it. No.

And it's interesting because the comments. about me talking about melatonin were according to Dr. Huberman. And I was like, I knew this is coming. And then I explained, I said, in the context of life, stage, and age, there are benefits. So, yes, I think that Dr. Huberman, who I, you know, he's up on a pedestal in terms of amazing and fantastic content. But it was definitely one of those times where I was like, I know this is coming. I know there's going to be a comment.

Like Dr. Huberman said, and I was like, yes. Yes. And he is correct. However, like looking at it from another perspective and in having the ability. to talk to so many clinicians and amazing people, I'm always like, so what do you think about this? Right. And it works. And again, some of the cautionary stuff is primarily, again, this is okay research, but it's not the greatest research is you have these mice that you're putting things through. I want to put in a little bit of a plug for just magnesium because I've often found that sometimes

people need melatonin, but especially if people find themselves, you know, 40 and younger, which I just turn 40 this year. Not that it doesn't matter to people that are older than that, but I've often found that just simply including the right amount of magnesium, that can have a major impact on sleep as well. Well, I can tell you, so when I had the 16 years in cardiology as an MP, I had a lot of time working with the electrophysiologists in my group. So these are the doctors that do pacemakers and defibrillators and deal with arrhythmias. And I'm a sponge. So like I would be listening to them and I had one in particular, Walter Otiga, who I will forever put on a pedestal as well. And Walter loved to teach. And he was like, Cynthia, I can like get people that have all these

latent arrhymias just by tweaking their magnesium. So I got very savvy. I mean, I love transdermal magnesium. I like oral magnesium. In fact, I was like, say to my own kids, I'm like, everyone needs more magnesium in their lives. And I do think it can be profoundly impactful. You know, there's people who need it to poop. There are people who need it to sleep. There are people who need it for stress. But I do find that both oral and transdermal magnesium products are game changers for so many people. And in fact, I think I took a magnesium soak. Have I ever told you about my little my soak? No, tell me about it. Okay. So the soak is this. You can soak your feet or your whole body. It's one cup of magnesium flakes, one cup of baking soda and then two tablespoons of

borax. And borax is fine if you don't ingest it because people are always like, oh my God, borax. I'm like, you're not eating it. You're soaking in it. And so that helps potentiate the magnesium and it's really, really powerful. And so those are the kinds of things I used to do with patients. Of course, they were like, you want me to spray magnesium on my body and then soak in something? I'm like, yes. And then they would avoid having, you know, more procedures and more medication. And to me, that was really exciting. Like something that's so seemingly benign is so powerful. Absolutely. You know, the other thing that I think about is that, like, I'm a huge mountain valley springwater fan. And if you turn it around on the back,

and you look at the sort of typical profile, which, of course, magnesium is one of the things that's in there, potassium, sodium, magnesium, I think, maybe a tiny, tiny amount of calcium, maybe tiny amount. But it helps us understand that our ancestors who are primarily living off of spring water, they were getting magnesium every time they drank this through natural contamination. Because when you think about the research on magnesium, you have a mineral that is responsible for the functioning of over 600 different plus enzymatic reactions inside of the body. So when you don't have enough, that's 600 different functions that are not happening,

at least either not happening at all or not happening as well as they could, which is usually the case that's there because people do get some magnesium from food and things like that. And then you think like, well, what the hell were our ancestors doing? Well, they probably had natural contaminations from their interaction with the dirt, but probably through spring water alone, we're just getting an ample amount of magnesium throughout their life, and it never was really an issue. Yeah, that's amazing. And I think it's such a simple concept.

You know, it's interesting. In hospitals, the number one prescribed magnesium was magnesium oxide. Do you know what the absorption rate of magnesium oxide is? I don't. 11%. Wow. And so we were giving our patients all this crappy magnesium, literally. And it wasn't until I started, you know, working with these, this.

these electrophysiologists that I was like, oh, different formulations are important. So if someone's listening and they're like, I don't know, this is new information, magnesium L3 and 8, as an example, crosses the blood brain barrier. You know, magnesium glycinate is great for absorption, but it can also help if people are constipated. And I find a lot of people are constipated. And so finding the right formulation of magnesium for you is important. But if you have mags in your supplement drawer, toss it, it's garbage.

I love it. Perfect. Like that, just like Melalternia, tonin how you targetly use it. And then we talked a little bit about magnesium. Is there anything else that you find that once somebody has the basics, because again, they're called supplements to our lifestyle, right? Once they have the basics that there's a couple others that can significantly make a difference for our ongoing maintenance or longevity or just general health. Anything else that you want to put a spotlight on? Yeah, I would say adaptogens. You know, adaptogens are

are plant-based compounds, they're herbs, they're naturally occurring. I do find for a lot of people, you know, especially as we're coming off of, you know, nearly three years of pandemic stuff, that's easy way I'm going to put it, it doesn't sound pejorative, people that are helping to buffer the stress response in the body. And I do find that adaptogenic herbs, whether it's maca, whether it's Ashwaganda, rodeola, Rolora, all of them can be helpful. They can be very nourishing for energy. They can be helpful for sleep quality or just stress reduction. And so I would say that and probably creatine monohydrate just because the more I get steeped in looking at research on supplementation and things that are beneficial, the more I'm like, oh, this is really interesting.

And I agree with you that none of us want to be taking 100 supplements a day. That is never what we're advocating for. But the things I find most beneficial are some of the things that we've talked about. but adaptogenic herbs in particular, I think are really, really impactful. What about fish oil? Do you ever supplement with it? I don't. I would rather get it from fish because, you know, we could have one good-sized fatty fish meal a week and we should be able to get in enough EPA and DHA.

I find that, you know, sometimes the biggest issue is relevant to quality and it can be hard navigating. You know, for the average consumer, they assume if I go on to Amazon, I'm always consistently going to have a high quality product. A lot of the pharmaceutical grade supplements, they don't allow their products to be sold on Amazon. Does that mean that there are others that are out there that are okay? Yes, but as a general rule. So I think, you know, fish oil, like, qualities is a concern in terms of rancidity. And I generally will say to people, like, just make sure you have a fatty fish meal at least once or twice a week. And that will generally give you what you want. If people are

looking to not be taking high-dose fish oil. I know that there are others that really like it for brain and cognitive health. But I sometimes will say, like, try to get it from the food first. And then if that's not effective enough, then we can always talk about adding it. In that same line, when people start to include more protein their diet who might have been under eating on protein, sometimes they find it a little bit hard as they're getting oriented. How do you feel about protein powders and any general guidance that you would offer to people as they're navigating that space? Yeah, and it's a great question. I think that I'm a realist. I have teenagers at home and they are both athletes and it would be impossible for them to get in

enough protein like they want to ideally. So I would say if people are choosing to have weight protein, buy the best quality you can afford. Something that's a small ingredient list. I would say, you know, the company Marigold is one that I refer to quite a bit. I don't have, I don't get any benefit from referring you to them. I would say, you know, the plant-based options, again, it's like finding palatibility. Again, no affiliation with Food Babes, Trevani, but that seems to be one of the cleaner ones that are out there. Bone broth proteins are a nice option. Paleo Valley obviously has a nice product.

But I'm a realist. I would be sitting here and be a complete hypocrite if I said I don't ever have protein powders. Obviously, I always say small ingredient list, high quality product. It should not be cheap. Like if you want a $20 protein powder, you're probably going to struggle a little bit because usually the ones filled with sucralose and aspartame and, you know, 15 ingredients. You don't know what they are or how to pronounce it. That's generally what is out there.

So you just have to, if you're going to use it as a adjunct to, you know, consuming other types of animal protein by the best quality that your budget permits. I love it. Cindy, this has been great. We went through like almost like 30 different questions that people had after our first podcast together, really because you present information in such a clear way that people are looking at, like, okay, great, now as I'm taking actions and I'm inspired by your story and I'm inspired by your message, there are some nuances that have to be navigated. And you do a great job of presenting

those nuances. Anything that we didn't get a chance to talk about as we close up here and we talk a little about your world and how people can continue to keep in touch with you, anything else that you feel like we didn't get a chance to touch on? Not really. I mean, I think the greatest message that I want to share with people is that, you know, life is meant to be a journey. It's not meant to be a sprint. It's meant to be a marathon. And even if you make one change today, that's going to have a profound net impact on your future. You don't feel like after you listen to the second podcast, you have to change all the things all at once. Pick one thing at a time. I certainly, over the last 10, 11 years, have been making small incremental changes. Some things were easier

for me than others. And it may be the same for you. In fact, I could share a funny story. I think the last thing I changed, you know, in terms of personal care products, was deodorant. And it was, like, seeming like this overwhelming decision. And then once I did it, it was, like, so freeing. It's like, what was I so worried about? And so just trust in the process, know that you don't have to do everything all at once. Just make one small change at a time. One last question.

You know, when people start to feel better and they get into this industry, when I mean, by that, I mean, like, they're in the wellness world. They're starting to learn a little bit more. They're reading. often their brain is firing on all cylinders and they get excited to maybe create something, to start a business, to put a product out there for anybody that feels like, you know what, my mind is starting to have all these ideas. I kind of want to follow in Cynthia's footsteps.

I want to be a business woman. I want to be an entrepreneur. I want to do something in the world. Any advice for them on that side? You've given some great steps when it's come to the world of diet, fasting, et cetera, body composition. What about your business side of thing? Any first steps, resources that were helpful for you as you embarked on your journey as an entrepreneur?

Oh, I love this question. I took a leap of faith. I had no business plan and really just told my husband, I'm going to be successful, and I think he thought I was crazy. One of the most important things I did at the very beginning was I hired a business coach. And yes, it was a scary investment. It was like, oh my gosh, I've never made an investment. I mean, it's an appropriate investment for the stage of business I was in. And every time I've invested in my business with business coaching and mentoring has come back to me

a hundredfold. So if you're really genuinely interested in becoming an entrepreneur, surround yourself with people that know more than you do and surround yourself with mentors and other entrepreneur types that you can look to for like, I want to be like that person or I want so I want to be able to model myself off of someone else in my field that has done this. At the time that I made the switch from clinical medicine to entrepreneurship, I didn't know any other NPs that were doing what I was doing. Plenty of physicians, but not NPs. So I would definitely look to people in your field that have made that transition and be able to connect with them.

Networking is certainly very important. And the mentorship piece, every investment I've made in my business with mentors has come back to me 100fold. So don't be afraid to make that, don't be afraid to make that scary investment. I love it. You know, sometimes people have this idea, well, why would somebody want to mentor me? Why would somebody want to give me advice? And the thing that I try to remind people is that, you know, people who regularly mentor, and that doesn't mean that this person may be signing up to be your mentor for 10 years or meeting you with you every month. You know, it's a big time commitment. But having a coffee with you a little bit here and there or checking in on you every so many months, they want to pay it forward because somebody did that for them. Yeah. Somebody did that for you. Somebody did that for me. Now, that doesn't. doesn't mean hit us all up with all these mentor requests, but go and find your version of that that's in your local town that you have access to. Just somebody that's one step ahead of you that can tell you the first steps of setting up a website if you're trying to make something in e-commerce. Or if you have a vision for a product that's out there, how that space work

and what it looks like to have something successful in that category. So people who have had mentorship, they want to pay it for it, but they want to do it to people who are not trying to be. transactional. Like, I'm just going to come to you to get something and then I'm going to go on to something else. They want to see that they want to mentor people with the right heart that are in it for the right reasons. And if that's you and you identify with that, you know, take that leap of faith and maybe reach out to somebody. Absolutely. I cannot tell you how grateful I am for every person who has helped, you know, help me along the way in my business. And I always say, like, I've always been someone who's intellectually curious. And I think that's made all the difference, just showing up with

gratitude and just being appreciative and grateful of people's time, I think goes a really long way. Beautiful. Let's talk about your world again. We mentioned it before, but just let's go through the list, you know, book, the coaching, and anything else you want to put the spotlight on, including how people can keep in touch with you on social media. Thank you. So the book is the intermittent fasting transformation that was published in March.

Podcast is Everyday Wellness. That's my podcast. And then I have a co-hosted podcast with Melanie Avalon called The Intermittent and Fasting podcast. If you want to learn, kind of like this, kind of like a Q&A session, you know, Melanie and I answer all questions. I am super excited to state that I now have a coaching program that goes along with the book. So if women are interested or clinicians are interested in, you know, coaching their patients through intermittent fasting and metabolic health, I have a whole coaching program for that. But you can catch me on social media.

Cynthia underscore Thurlow underscore on Instagram. Be careful. I can be a little snarky on Twitter. I get in trouble every once in a while. And I have a free Facebook group that's intermittent fasting. lifestyle backslash my name, but I would love for you to reach out. And of course, my website, which is www.s.w.com. Amazing. All the links in the show notes. Cynthia, thanks so much for making this happen. You know, you're in L.A. You're doing some other podcasts. I appreciate you squeezing us in there.

Absolutely. And it's been a fun conversation. I hope we get a chance to do it again one day in the future. I would love that.