Dhru Purohit Show - Doctor Diagnosed with Terminal Cancer Shares Life Lessons People Learn Too Late with Mark Goulston, MD

Episode Date: November 13, 2023

This episode is brought to you by Birch Living Mattress and Lifeforce. If you had the opportunity to reflect on your life, relationships, and the legacy you would like to leave the world with, what reflections would you have, and what wisdom would you share on living a content and peaceful life? Would your answers change if you knew your death was impending, and what would you prioritize in your remaining days? Today, on The Dhru Purohit Podcast, Dhru sits down with Dr. Mark Goulston to discuss the lessons that dying has imparted on him and that he is eager to share with the world. Dr. Goulston shares exercises and practices that can help us be better listeners, build awareness, and create genuine curiosity to make better connections. Dr. Mark Goulston is a retired psychiatrist and a specialist in the field of death and dying who is currently confronting his own mortality. He’s also a former FBI and police hostage negotiation trainer. He is the author or co-author of ten books, with his book, Just Listen, ranking as the top book on listening worldwide. He also hosts his highly-rated podcast, My Wakeup Call. He's renowned as the inventor of Surgical Empathy, an approach he employed with suicidal patients.  In this episode, Dhru and Dr. Goulston dive into (audio version / Apple Subscriber version): Dr. Goulston’s career and practice, and how he found peace in confronting his terminal diagnosis  (2:20 / 2:20)  Dr. Goulston’s diagnosis of leukemia and the treatment he is undergoing (9:44 / 6:45)  Wisdom from Dr. Goulston’s late father (14:05 / 10:48) Actual vulnerability and how Dr. Goulston believes he is “giving to live” (19:17 / 16:11) The importance of making sure friends and family feel loved by you (26:35 / 24:00) A key question to create connection (28:16 / 25:40) Dr. Goulston’s mentor’s advice on the criteria for having a good death (34:50 / 32:07) Myths about dying, acceptance and surrendering to the idea of dying and the peace of mind you feel (41:04 / 38:05) What prohibits people from prioritizing connection in life (43:25 / 41:16) The importance of listening and how it creates awareness and curiosity (48:58 / 46:36) Using the HUVA exercise (58:00 / 55:06) Prove, Show, Hide, and Please exercise and eliminating those from your personality (1:02:00 / 59:40) The FUD CRUD technique to invite frustrations out without judgment (1:17:00 / 1:14:00)  Dr. Goulston’s ideas on self-forgiveness and letting go of what he felt he did not achieve (1:24:00 / 1:21:04) Dr. Goulston’s belief that he exists as a catalyst to help people heal (1:44:25 / 1:41:29) Also mentioned in this episode: My Wakeup Call podcast Hurt Less, Live More show TED Talk - What Made You Smile Today? To get 20% off your Birch Living mattress plus two free eco-rest pillows, head over to birchliving.com/dhru today.  Right now, get 15% off your first purchase of Lifeforce at Mylifeforce.com with code DHRU. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Drew Proet podcast. Each week we explore the inner workings of the brain and the body with one of the brightest minds and wellness, medicine, and mindset. This week's guest is Dr. Mark Goulston. Dr. Goulston is a retired psychiatrist and specialist in the field of death and dying, who is currently confronting his own mortality. The prospects of dying has imparted lessons upon him that life never did, lessons that could have changed his life. Now, he's eager to share these insights with us and the world so others don't have to experience death to learn from them. He states that he's in the best emotional and physiological state he's ever been in, and he continues to improve each day, even as his illness, which he'll expand upon in the interview, becomes more and more serious. Now, a little bit more about Dr. Goulston. In addition to being a retired psychiatrist, he's also a former FBI and police

hostage negotiation trainer. He is the author and co-author of 10 books with his best-selling book Just Listen, ranking as the top book on listening worldwide. He is also the host of his highly rated podcast, My Wake Up Call, and he's renowned as the inventor of surgical empathy, an approach and modality he employed with suicidal patients. Dr. Goldston is proud to say that in his 30-year career, None of his patients died by suicide. Stay tuned for a fascinating and deeply moving episode on what it truly means to be alive from Dr. Mark Goldston. Dr. Mark Golston, it's a pleasure to have you here. In the opening video for your new series, you shared something quite shocking with your viewers.

In the series, which is called I'm Dying to Tell You, You shared, I'm Going to Be Dying Much Sooner than I Thought I Would. and what each day is revealing to me is profound. It's something I never realized, and most importantly, I'm going to be sharing that with you. Mark, can you help us understand by sharing a little bit of context, as well as what has compelled you to document this sad, touching, and yet beautiful process of dying that you're currently going through. I'm a retired psychiatrist, and I was a death and dying specialist. So one of my focuses was suicide prevention.

In 35 years, none of my patients died by suicide, and also doing house calls to dying patients. And you get a chance to learn a lot, especially with the house calls, about what makes for a good death, what makes for a not-so-good death. And I can remember visiting them and trying to help some of these people who were very, you know, wealthy.

But at the end, they felt they blew it. And so I would leave those house calls, and I would say, make a note of what you just learned. It may come in handy someday. May come in handy with other people. And what I realized, it's coming handy with me. And I have a book called Just Live. listen, it's done pretty well around the world. And so for 50 years, I've listened and learned,

but I didn't necessarily share what I learned, you know, before the book came out, because as a psychiatrist, psychotherapist, I mainly focused on alleviating pain. And people who are in psychological pain, even to the point of being suicidal, they don't want insomacized. site. They don't want wisdom. They want relief. And so since 1976, I've been keeping a journal. I'm up to 257 volumes, 45,000 pages. And so I would just write down stuff that I would learn, you know, and didn't really share it because I never scaled what I do because I don't. always defaulted to one-on-one. So I have a method that seems to have been successful with suicide prevention, but I never scaled it, the Mark Goulston method, because I was too busy seeing your kid.

I mean, researchers in depression and suicide would come to me and say, well, you see my kid. And I say, well, why don't you send them to your university? And they said, we don't have your track record and I'm worried about my kid. And I said, are you interested in what I do, how I do it? And they say, if it's not evidence-based, we can't look at it. And I'd always say, send me your kid. And so what happened is when I got this diagnosis and prognosis, it's interesting. So there'll be several things that I'll share with you and your listeners that are giving me peace of mind because I have more peace of mind than I've ever had in my life, which is why I'm getting on these podcasts, like, how can you be so peaceful? You know, how can you be so whatever? And one of the thing that's

given me peace of mind is I have let go of having to prove anything or chase anything. I just let it go. And that's freed me. and my wife told me that if I die, she'll have enough money. And my children are launched. The unfinished business is I'm the creative visionary of about eight projects, and I just want them to continue for the benefit of what the projects can do, you know, for people and for the teams. The other thing I say, because, you know, I have a little bit of a gallows humor, and I'll say, you know, everybody who's ever lived has died, if they can do it, so can I.

That's beautiful. Can you give us a little bit more background on the diagnosis you received? Today's episode is brought to you by the Birch mattress by Helix. So we all know that getting a good night's sleep is super important, not just for. for our health in general, but for being a functional and thriving human being. I can tell you that when my sleep suffers, the next day is rough. That's why I'm so psyched about today's sponsor. Birch mattress by Helix.

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That's my, my, M-Y-L-F-E-F-E-F-E-F-O-R-C-E dot com, and enter the code D-H-R-U that's Drew to optimize your health span today. Well, a couple years ago, I was diagnosed with lymphoma, but it was one of those lymphomas where we would just watch it. And some people live with this kind of, lymphoma for years, and the treatments are all great. But I had this pesky anemia that just

wouldn't go away, and I got a series of fairly expensive injections, and thank God for Medicare. And it didn't help. And then they did a bone marrow biopsy, and that revealed that I had 9% of something called monoblasts. And 20% is acute myeloid leukemia. 9% is high-risk myelodysplastic syndrome. And 5% or under is normal. And so I just finished a round of chemotherapy because they want to get the numbers better before I go into the hospital, which I'll be going into in mid-December to get a bone marrow transplant. And a bone marrow transplant is an organ transplant. You know, they'll radiate my whole body, kill off all my bone marrow, and then I'm fortunate that my children are matches, and so

they'll basically do a dialysis procedure on my son, and they'll take out stem cells from his blood. They'll inject them into me, and I'll be in isolation in the hospital for three weeks to a month, because I'll be starting from scratch. I have to get all my childhood vaccines again, measles, mumps, and the stem cells have to grow. And I'm feeling more optimistic because about six months ago, I was looking at old numbers of prognosis and there's a there was a those old numbers showed a 20% mortality rate from the

procedure because at my age 75 you can just bottom out and they give you IV antibiotics but there's a 20% mortality rate you know that you can die and there's a 48% survival rate for three years and so that didn't seem all that promise seeing, but I have the best doctor possible, I mean, the best doctor I've ever known, which also gives me peace of mind. And he said, no, no, the numbers are different. The mortality is down to about 10%. And the survival rate, even in people your age, is up to 75%. And if it, and if it works, it's a cure, you know, because they replace your bone marrow. And But, you know, there's a good chance.

There's still a chance that it won't work. And then you go to chemotherapy, which isn't a cure. And if it works, you go into remission, then you relapse. You get some more chemotherapy. And, you know, you keep doing that for a while. And eventually the chemotherapies stop working. Hopefully they do clinical trials. And you can go on for a while.

So, you know, I don't want to go, I think that's enough for the, for the medical lesson to your listeners and viewers. You know, referring back to your opening video on your series that you started called I'm Dying to Tell You, we have a link to that in the show notes. You have a story of some words that your father had shared with you some time ago that are deeply, related to not only the process of dying that you're going through right now, but really for anyone who's thinking about what it truly means to live a fulfilled life. Could you share that story about your father with our audience and the words that he left you with? Well, he only left them with me after he died. So my father, you know, was very much left brain, good with numbers, not very good at connecting emotionally. And towards the end of his life,

he developed Alzheimer's. And I always wanted to receive some wisdom about life. And he wasn't unwise, but that just wasn't his thing. He was good with numbers. You know, and he worked hard. He was a good provider. And I remember when it was clear that it had Alzheimer's, and he could be kind of tough. And I remember there was a phone call where he got very timid. He said, oh, I'll put your mother on. And I said to my wife after that, I said, I'm never going to get it. You know, he doesn't have it to give. and and I realized I still sort of wanted and needed that sort of connection

and so you know the Alzheimer's got worse and then he had a stroke he died and we had an open coffin viewing and before we went out for the service

and his face was all rubbery, you know, from being whatever it's treated. And I kissed them on the forehead. And as clear and as loud as your voices, I heard his voice saying, don't treat a big thing like a small thing. And don't treat a small thing like a big thing. Don't do what I did. And I want to share that because something, here's a story from house calls, which is very similar. I remember that I was visiting someone, you know, when they were heading towards dying.

And this person was very powerful, very well-known, actually beloved in public. But, you know, private life wasn't all that great. multiple marriages, kids on trust funds, kids on drugs, but loved in public. You know, there's unfortunately too many people like this. And all the people that I've seen during my life seem to appreciate that I could, I develop a rapport, but then I could be very direct with them. And I remember I visited them and I said, hey, you know, you look like crap, but I don't think it's because you're dying. You've been dying as long as I know you. What's going on?

And he said, I don't think I've ever done anything important in my life. I said, what? You know, you've got created thousands of jobs, you know, hospital wings named after you and whatnot. And he looked at me and he was really well known for his wry smile. He had this great sense of humor. And he looked at me and he said, don't con a con a con man, especially when he's dying. I've got all the love that money can buy. And then he said something along the lines that my father said, he said, everything that I thought was important isn't, and everything I thought wasn't important is,

and I've run out of time to fix it. You know, and I could be direct, and I said, I'm going to write something on a prescription. Let it go. This is not a good time to be asking, these questions. You did a lot for the world. You're not perfect. Nobody is. Let it go. Because it's it's it's it's kind of foolish to be contemplating this stuff now. You know, and he kind of smiled and he said, I'll give it a shot. But I learned a lot of lessons like that.

did you genuinely feel that it was foolish for him to contemplate in that moment in the sense that Yeah, because well, he was obsessing about it. I mean, it could have led to some apologies, you know, to family members and whatnot. And I'll share something else. Here's one of the lessons from the I'm Dying to Tell You series. And we talked about this before we started the interview. you. I've discovered that there is a power to true vulnerability, and by vulnerability, I mean open. I don't mean vulnerability in the bad business sense. Oh, if you're vulnerable, you know,

you're weak or whatever. And something interesting happened about six weeks ago, because I basically live to give. That's my entire life. And now I give to live. I give to live. I truly give to live right now. And when I'm in a state of giving and helping people, good people to land in their future, helping them to be more impactful, helping them to play the bigger game that they might want to think of playing,

it's really uplifting. And so normally when someone says, how are you doing? I'm saying, I'm fine, you know, what are you working on? are you trying to do? And about, I don't know what I said, six weeks ago or a few months ago, someone said, how are you doing?

And I said, I got a couple issues. And he's kind of, you know, multitasking, like, you know, whatever. And he said, well, what's going on? And then something just came up because I have trouble letting people care about me. I'm the caretaker. I'm the doctor. I'm the therapist. I'm here to care about you.

I'm fine. You don't have to care about me. And I guess I let the possibility of carrying in. And he said, what's going on? And I looked at him, like I'm looking at you. And I said, I might be dying. And I paused. I got emotional.

I got embarrassed. I apologize. I said, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said that. And he said, don't apologize. And I said, well, I don't want to burden you. And he said, this is a gift mark. And I said, well, how is it a gift?

And he said, this is the most emotionally intimate conversation I've ever had. Then another person went through the same thing. And he said, I'm envious of you. I said, what? And he said, oh, I don't want your illness. He said, I want your openness. He said, you are so open now. You are so free. You feel so safe with me, and I'm not going to slam you. I've never felt that ever. And then what's been happening. And many of these people are very successful in business. And if I went to them in some cockamamie business idea, you know, they'd say, well, you know, that's interesting, Mark. I wish you luck. I'm kind of busy. But what's happening is I formed my version of the 700 Club because I would say

close to 90% of them have said 24-7. And I said, what do you mean 24-7? And they said, you can call me 24-7. And they weren't talking about a business idea. And I'm not going to call any of them. You know, yeah, I get emotional, but, you know, yeah, I'm not going to call any of them. And I've been trying to figure out why the 24-7 Club. And it's a work in progress.

but I think what it is is it's not so much what they're going to give me. It's they got a taste of a real conversation that they don't have. I mean, it was like the Michael Jackson 25th Moton reunion when he did his moonwalk. It was like, whoa, this is real. And I think I could be wrong, but I think they said 24-7 because there was just something that was just so penetratingly real to them. And I think what they realize is they don't have a lot of that in their life. So are you tracking with any of this, Drew?

Absolutely. I think that when we on a shared journey with someone that is going through or getting closer to the time of transition, however, that maps out to people's beliefs about the future, there is a reminder of as you've shared what's important and what's not important. We can't help but to think about our day and what we're complaining about and what we are making more significant than it needs to be. And people spend so much time, effort and money on a daily basis trying to get close to something that reminds them of being alive and meeting somebody who is near death.

And in your case, dying is a reminder that everyone is looking for, but they don't know that they're looking for it. And that's why I think you've used this word, where your friend used this word, that it's a gift for you to share your story. And I truly appreciate you coming on the podcast today because it's a gift for us to hear it and be reminded of what do lessons on death mean, even for those of us who, may not be close to a situation. Yes, we're all going to die, but may not be close to a situation where we are dying as immediately as somebody else. But ultimately, I believe that everybody who's listening today here,

including myself, is wanting to be reminded of just how precious life is. You know, in the I'm dying to tell you series, it's on YouTube, and I think it's I'm dying to tell you Dr. Mark is the YouTube link. And then I have, and I'm releasing some as TikToks. My very first episode, and I didn't know it would be a series, was called Michelangelo dying.

And it kind of relates to what you just said. And just as Michelangelo saw the angel in the marble and just carved till he set it free, I was able to see what's important in what's not important. And I just carved away what's. not important. And there was a lot. And the more that I could just carve away what's not important, the more of what's important just shined through. And I'll tell you, one of my discoveries, you know, and maybe it relates to, you know, that person I did the house calls to, I think when he said

everything I thought wasn't important is like a lot of high achievers they can get to the end of their life and they are not emotionally close to anyone and they poo poohed that because it was a distraction you know when you're trying to accomplish things it's a distraction to be emotionally close

yeah it's a good idea but you know I want to accomplish stuff and I think when he realized, well, I have all this money. I'm dying sooner than I should have. He had liver cancer from alcoholism. And what I discovered is that having the people I love, and I include my friends with my family, having them feel loved by me,

not just know they're loved, but feel loved by me and and having conversations where I feel loved by them. And what I'm discovering is a lot of people want those connections. They just don't know how to do it. You know, a lot of people are emotionally shy and they default to, you know, what they have more confidence in. And so that's one of the things I'm wanting to share is, you know, how to get close to the people you care about. There is something for your business audience.

It's a daunting challenge, but it'll be a game changer in your marriage. So if you're a high-achieving business person or an entrepreneur, take your spouse aside and say, Can I ask you a question? You know, they're kind of used to you being, you know, running around, just trying to be master of the universe or mistress of the universe. And you say to them, have I ever been so busy that I made you feel you weren't worth listening to? And they're going to go, what? Have I ever been so preoccupied and so busy that I made you feel you weren't? worth listening to you. You weren't worth my time. And say it earnestly. Your spouse is going to look

down because you surprise them with intimacy. And they may make excuses. Oh, well, you're a good person. You're busy. You're a good provider. And I know you have a lot on your mind. And say, no, no, no, no, no. That's all true. But have I ever made you feel that I was too busy? and it caused you to feel that you weren't worth listening to. I need you to tell me. And if you can do that, they'll look up at you. Their eyes will be tearing up because they have some relief because they've made excuses for feeling not connected to you.

And then when they tell you, take it deeper and say, at my worst, what has that been like for you? And they'll want to look away and you say, look at me. And they'll say, pretty bad. And then you say, take me to the last time when I was at my worst. You won't remember it because you were too busy. But when they tell you that, whatever it is, you look in their eyes and you say, I did that. And when you're looking into their eyes, you look at them as the person.

you first fell in love with and adored. And you think to yourself, what have I done to this person? And whatever they say, you own up to it and say, you deserve better. I'm going to fix this. And I'm sorry. So, and again, don't use these tactics just because this is not about closing a deal. This is about getting close. So could you follow some of those tactics?

Absolutely. you know the power of setting up the framework of the question to not have people feel defensive and that it is the right and open environment for them to be vulnerable with you even if there's part of them that shies away from that vulnerability out of fear of hurting you and hurting your feelings but more importantly out of the fear of showcasing their hurt that they've been through. That's why the sequences of the way that you phrase the questions are so powerful to remind everybody that, no, I want to feel that hurt. I want to hear about it. I want to own it. And I want to reset for something new together. It's beautiful. This is, by the way,

one of the reasons teenagers don't open up to their parents. Because teenagers, unless they ask for advice, and spouses for that matter, unless they ask for advice or solutions, which often a parent is their default mode, they don't want it. What they want to do is feel the safety of getting something that happened to them up and out and allowing it to breathe. And what they want is empathy and compassion, but a lot of parents who never received it themselves will think, well, I'm not going to feel sorry for them. You know, it's not going to help them if I pity them.

It's not pity. It's empathy and compassion. And I see this on a number of young adults and teenagers, and they say, the reason I don't open up is I have very little confidence that I'll feel better from the conversation. More often, I'll say to myself, why did I bother? And then I'll just feel alone with it. It'll build up. And when I can't take it anymore, I'll start cutting on myself.

I'll start binge eating and welcome to my world. Wow. profound. And many of us have maybe not that extreme, but many people can relate to that. They've gone through that. They can remember being a teenager.

They can remember being somebody who was maybe not in a position of power as a child or something comparable and feeling just not heard and misunderstood and didn't know how to make it better. And when we finally are in this position, I think that many of us get so busy or tell ourselves that that we forget to slow down enough to see are we actually heading in the right direction. And you know, when I think about your series, I'm dying to tell you, I think that so much of what you're sharing are reminders, often simple yet so profound reminders that are helping us ask these.

Core questions. Questions like, am I actually headed in the right direction? Core questions like, you know, what did we realize and what do we not realize? And core questions like, what does it mean to truly be alive? Can you share with us some of the lessons? There may be a couple stacks of building up to them. but in particular there was one where you shared about having a mentor who wrote an article on what it meant to have a quote unquote good death can you talk about this mentor in your life and some of the

lessons that he was sharing and how you've contextualized them in the current journey that you're in life. His name was Dr. Ed Schneidman, S-H-N-E-I-D-M-A-N. And he was one of the pioneers in suicide prevention. So, and he was real, most of my mentors were a little bit quirky, and I guess I'm a little bit quirky. And, and he, he would refer me suicidal patients. He would refer me. He would refer me. me death and dying patients to go do house calls to. And so, you know, that was a lot of his life, his professional identity. So I wrote a tribute to him called A Good Death. And you can look it up, a Good Death, Mark Goulston.

And he lists a bunch of criteria. And I meet all the criteria. except the one that I've revised from the original article I wrote about him. Because in the original article, he said, A Good Death is, you know, living to 70 with your wits about you. But that was a while back. So I think currently it's living to 90 with your wits about you. And I meet all the other criteria.

And, you know, and some of the criteria is, to have only a moderate amount of pain and suffering. And again, one of the other things that gives me peace of mind is I have the best doctor I've ever known, 260 plus five-star patient reviews. I mean, he is a unicorn amongst unicorns. And so having a team with total confidence in them, and just following what he tells me has given me a lot of peace. And so I think the pain and suffering,

and I've had a round of chemotherapy, and it's been okay. Also, it shouldn't be a sudden death, because then you don't have a chance to really have conversations those conversations you never had and should have had with the people you love. Also, for me, it's, I have some unfinished business with, I'm the visionary creative of about, I don't know, seven projects, which, you know, I think could really be possibly game changers in the world. And so I want those to go on beyond me. And I want to make sure that the teams are in a position to go on with them.

Also, I love mentoring. I mentor about 45 people from frequencies of once a week to once every five years, because some people, you know, from five years ago, we'll hear about this and they want have a call and they say, you know, you're my mentor. I said, I didn't, I'm thinking, I'm not sure I remember you. I don't say that. And, you know, and then they say, well, you said this one thing, you know, five years ago, and that's been like a true north to me. And so amongst the people I mentor are, some of them are really certified geniuses that can change, it really can change the world. One is connected with how to remove the mines from Ukraine and how to help them win the war.

So I love setting them up into the future to where they can do that. I make a couple introductions a day because I have a wide network and I connect people according to their essence and according to their purpose. I've already made two introductions today. I say, you should meet each other, and here's why. And I guess they're pretty good introductions, because now I don't even have to go into them. Whenever I make an introduction, people say, when Mark says, meet this person, I meet them. So, you know, so that's another thing. And so I've met all the criteria. And I have a weird sense of humor, a gallows sense of humor. And so did my mentor, Dr. Schneidman.

And one of his, and this is also in the article, A Good Death, and he said, and he had a mentor. And that mentor said to him, a good death is dying so as to be as little a pain in the ass to your family as possible. And I'm doing my best to follow that one. You know, one of the things that was shared in that article was about learning things every day and sharing them with other individuals. And on that note, I want to go a little bit big picture here. What do you think some of the biggest misconceptions are about dying and the dying process in general? Well, I'm not sure if I said this earlier in the podcast, and it's a little bit glib, but it gives me peace of mind and a chuckle, which is everybody who's ever lived has died, and if they can do it, so can I.

And one of my videos is about acceptance and surrender. And so I'm fully able to accept that I might die. And I will probably die sooner than the 90 by a bunch. And it's allowed me to let go of having to live. Oh, I have to live. I have to live. And people will say, well, you can have a positive attitude. You got to have such and such.

And I say, I've been chasing peace of mind for 70 years. And I finally have it. And I'll trade you peace of mind for a positive attitude any day of the week. And so being able to accept, well, I might die, and I probably will sooner than later, and not having to be crazed about, I have to live. I have to live. Sure, I'd like to see my grandchildren reach their children.

teenage years, which I probably won't. And so acceptance is letting something in. I might die. Surrendering is letting go of something that you don't have much control over anyway. And I think that's a frame of mind that we can use in a lot of situations. Now, I'm not saying if you're in business and you know you want to be a tough negotiator and you know and it's and you're competitive with the other person you know i'm not saying that you should not be that way but boy you do that for a lifetime you're going to have to drink a lot of alcohol to make up for it what gets in the way of most people separating in their lives What matters and what doesn't?

What do you find are the top stories, distractions, things that are going in the background that constantly have people forgetting those powerful words that you heard the voice of your father essentially share with you, which is don't make big things small. and don't make small things big. Don't do what I do. What gets in the way of people prioritizing the right things in their life? Well, here's a little taste of my soapbox about technology and the Internet.

Most of the leaders of technology are not able to emotionally connect. You know, when I was young and maybe I was going on a date, they were going into Radio Shack and they couldn't wait to see the latest gadget. They didn't need to shower Steve Jobs and all that. And what happened is they have addicted the world to excitement and adrenaline. And excitement and adrenaline are very fleeting, meaning you have to keep feeding them. monster. That's why video games have to be more extreme. Movies have to be more extreme. And people spend a lot of money trying to keep the adrenaline rush going. And that excitement can feed dopamine. Dopamine is pleasure. But you can also feed dopamine with oxytocin,

which is emotional closeness. An emotional close. is more lasting. When people tell me stories about holding their parents' hand for three days and they just relive it with me, it's still lasting in them. And it's not depression. It's emotional connection and dopamine. But the world is too impatient. And so I think what's happened is, and look at the world of social media, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook.

Oh, it's so exciting to get more followers. And I'll confess because people will say often in a party, well, how can we help you, Mark? And I say, you know, I'm not focused on making money. If any of what I've shared seems to be helpful or interesting. You know, it does give me a slight buzz if I go to my YouTube channel or TikTok. And some of my videos have more than three views. mainly because, oh, someone was watching it, and it's not about money or followers. It's maybe it helped them today.

Maybe it helped them have that conversation I mentioned to you. And maybe they turned a marriage around. And that's a combination of excitement. You know, if people look at that and it helps them. and oxytocin because when I picture people and a lot of my mentors will say this, a couple of them said, you don't realize it, but you saved my life 15 years ago. Oh, I just thought, I just cared about you. And they said, yeah, that's what did it.

And so amongst those videos, there's a number of them, if you try them, like some of the tips I've given you and your listeners and viewers today, and it has that kind of, and it results in that emotional connection, just like going back to the 24-7 conversations I'm having, where they want more closeness. They said 24-7, not because they wanted more excitement. They wanted to feel closer because what they realized is a lot of their life is not about closeness. And maybe in that moment, they realized, hey, this closeness we just felt, this is important.

Wow. I didn't know it was important until we just had it. So I know that was tangential, but I hope there's a pony in what I just said. Many ponies for sure. You know, part of what that brings up for me is that there are so many powerful lessons that can come from us just listening. You know, you have a best-selling book that you wrote a few years ago. I believe it came out in 2009, was it first published. And the book is called Just Listen.

Discover the secret to getting through to absolutely anyone. And I've heard you share before that one of the key things that is a through line inside of the book is that most people have no idea how much they're talking gets in the way of connecting with other people. And I see it as sort of twofold. connecting with other people. You gave examples about kids earlier or relationship, something that you can ask your spouse or somebody that you're in an intimate relationship

with. But then there's the other side of it is that how many of us actually really listen to ourselves and our own true thoughts about a subject rather than the just meandering of our mind and the ruminating of those thoughts that happen on a daily basis. So I'd love to come to your book. Just listen. What do you think that listening has taught you about essentially dying better? Awareness and curiosity can really calm us down.

One of my last mentors was Larry King. He used to go to breakfast with this quirky group every morning. And he was one of the most curious people you'd ever meet. People loved to be on CNN with him because he was curious. He didn't hit people with a gotcha. He was just curious. And non-judgmentally, he could say to a serial mass shooter, here's my Larry King voice.

You shot a lot of people that day. What was going on? You know, without judgment. And I remember we were talking and he said, you can't be curious and furious at the same time. I'm going to try something with you, Drew, if you're game. Please. I want to give you an emotional experience right here, right now,

if you're game. And you're going to let me run with this? Yeah, absolutely. Please. So one of the things I've been trying to teach the world, I spoke in Moscow with Daniel Kahneman. He wrote Thinking Fast and Slow, because just listened, you know,

was a bestseller. And one of the things I spoke to the audience about, and there's videos up on YouTube, not in the I'm Dying to Tell You series, but in my regular YouTube thing, where what I realized is that everybody you meet and you have a conversation with,

whether it's one on one, one on ten, when on a thousand, they're all listening for something underneath they're listening to you. So listening to is business as usual. It's fairly transactional. Listening for, if you can know it's always operating, and if you can identify what it is and you get it right, without the other person telling you, they can have sort of an, they will lean towards you because they're going to wonder, what else do you know about me?

So here's the experiment. I think underneath our conversation, here's what I think you're listening for. You really want to honor the trust and confidence of your listeners and viewers. The last thing you want to do is waste their time. and you're listening for something that could give them value, something that's practical, and if you're lucky, change their lives for the better. And you're listening for that in guests. You're also listening for the guests who might have a best-selling book, but he or she is a stiff.

You have to go back and say, I hate to tell you this, but we can't use the interview, because, you know, you're protective of your listeners and viewers' time, and you'll talk to your assistant afterwards and say, he or she, they were awful. I don't think we can use that. What are we going to tell them? Now, fortunately, that happens rarely. But is any of that accurate what I just said, that what you're listening for underneath our conversation is, yeah, I really want to honor the trust and confidence that my viewers and listeners have. I want to make sure that I'm giving them something of value, maybe extreme value. Is any of that going on? Absolutely. Yeah, I'll expand on that if you want me to. I definitely, I try to listen with two sides of me in an interview. One is listening for what is the

best way to direct this interview so that I both highlight the guest and bring out their natural talents and abilities. And therefore, if I did that, then provide value to the audience. And then the second thing that I feel that I'm listening for is that I'm listening for what's in between the words, what's in between the sentences that isn't being said, that might be something that I might want to pull on because there could be something fascinating there that even the guests themselves may not know that they wanted to explore or explain to my audience. Yeah, absolutely. And let me ask you, when I got it right, how important serving your audience is, even as or more important than serving your guests, yes, you're going to interview the guests and you want to bring out

what they have to share, but that dedication to your audience is really maybe of primary importance. And you're looking for episodes in which you can say, you know, to your team instead of that was awful, how do we go back and tell them we can't use it? you know, you can look afterwards and say, I think that could have helped a lot of people. Does that have some emotional resonance in you? Absolutely. Definitely has emotional resonance. Well, that was the exercise.

I think you did find truth. Well, because I consider myself as somebody who's very thorough with PrEP, I have to admit that I've heard you take another podcast host. I believe it was with the Harvard Business Review that you did a podcast with them. You took them through a similar exercise and then being familiar with your book. Why do you think that that exercise is important for people to contemplate themselves? So for those that are listening in and saw you take me through that exercise, what are the takeaways for them? Well, the takeaway is you will discover that it will change conversations completely.

and if you can be, to borrow word from one of my other mentors, Warren Benis, if you can be a first-class noticeer, you will notice a change in the other person in which they feel relieved, deeply appreciative, and deeply grateful. So for instance, that conversation with a spouse, you know, where you say, you know, have I ever been so busy that you didn't feel like you were worth listening to? And so I think if you can, what I suggest to people is have the intention every day to have a conversation in which you deeply listen and focus on what they might be listening for. Here's one of my favorite exercises.

I think it's an injustice. It's called the Hoover exercise, H-U-V-A. And so if you do this once a day in a conversation in which you want to connect as opposed to sell, if you say to yourself, I want to connect with my teenager. I want to connect with my spouse. I want to connect with my business partner. I may even want to connect with my investor, even though it seems like, you know, that's about money.

And so you have that intention. And after the conversation, you put yourself in their shoes and ask yourself from their point of view, on a scale of one to ten, how much did they feel heard out by me? Or did I interrupt them? Did I come off as distracted? you, how much do they feel understood by me? And you demonstrate that. By the way, you've done 10, 10, 10 on all of these. And the understanding, you demonstrate it by going deeper. You're saying more about what you mean by that. Something that really helps is identifying emotional words or hyperbole. So if they use the word like amazing, terrible, or they're saying, or they, or their voice goes up in intensity. I can't stand this anymore.

Let them say whatever it is. They're going to expect you to come back, give them unsolicited advice or do something. And instead, you pause for a couple seconds. And this is under the you understanding. And you say, say more about what was awful. Say more about what was amazing. say more about I can't stand it anymore

and they're going to start talking and go deeper and the V is how much did they feel valued by you and I'll tell you you've been hearing me out understanding me and valuing me like nobody's business Drew you're doing a great job and I feel like you know what I'm saying is being valued by you

emphasize. And then the final letter is A, how much did that person feel you added value? So you're really off the charts. I felt you've heard me out. You've been really deliberate. Yes, you have some questions, but the conversation has an organic quality to it. You've demonstrated, I feel understood by you. I truly feel valued by you, and I feel like you've added value. So if you can do this exercise once a day with someone, and don't beat up on yourself, it's how you develop the muscle. And in fact, if you're listening in, watching this,

watch how Drew conducted this interview. Well, thank you for that, Mark. I super appreciate it. It's always a little bit more difficult for me on that note to connect with individuals remotely versus in person. You know, you get so many subtle cues that are there when you're in person with someone and the energy of the room. But, you know, I still nonetheless am so honored that even I can. And this is the beautiful side of social media, YouTube and these other things is that I wouldn't even known about your work if it wasn't for all these great tools that are there. And this is a beautiful side of social media, YouTube and these other things is that I wouldn't even known about your work. And this is a lot of you. And this is. how these things can make our lives better as long as we don't let them run astray and sort of lead us with their sort of dopamine engines and their addiction engines that are there. Anyways, that's a little bit of a tangent. But thank you for that compliment. You know, I want to go back to something you shared in the beginning of the interview that you've spent a lot of time in your career with individuals that are in the process of, you know,

death are dying. Many individuals who are on their 11th hour of their journey from spending so much time with these individuals, would you say that you had an understanding of some of the biggest regrets of the death of people that were on their deathbed and those that were dying? That they didn't live their life. Here's another exercise that you can use. I hope it's okay. I'm giving practical, tactical things. There's an exercise called the prove, show, hide, please, exercise. And when I talk to people, I say, I'd like you to imagine your personality is a circle. And in that circle are all the parts of your personality that are trying to prove, show, hide, or please.

Prove, show, hide, or please. Now I'd like you to imagine eliminating all of those what's left. And a majority of people will say nothing. All I am is proving, showing, hiding, or pleasing. And I say, if that's all you are, then you are leased out to the world. And if you can go for a long walk and just have the intention of just letting go of that, you may discover a calling that has been calling out to you for decades. It just never got through because it got a busy signal.

I'll share a poignant anecdote with a patient from years ago. And it was a man and he talked as fast as some, you know, Gen Z speak. I find some of the younger generations speak faster than I think. But that was unusual back then. He was just talking, talking, talking, talking. And at one point, I listened between words and I said to him, shh. And he said, what?

I said, shut up. He said, what? I said, I want you to listen to the quiet. It's located between the noisy, your head and everything you're saying, and it is screaming out to me for you to listen to it. And he said, what? I said, I'm telling you, it's getting louder and louder. You need to shut up.

And so he did. And I said, here, close your eyes and just see if you can hear what the quiet is telling you. And, you know, he kind of struggled, and he closed his eyes. And I said, you know, now, you know, take some deep breaths. And he started taking some deep breaths and then some long breaths. And then he collapsed on the couch to his left. And he started crying. And I knew this was good and overdue.

I let him cry for about, you know, until he's finished. He gets up. His eyes are bloodshot. He has a big smile on his face. He looks about 10. pounds lighter, and he looked at me and he said, everything, oh, he said, I've been chasing that all my life, and everything I do without exception takes me away from it. And that resonates with a lot of what we've said. He was chasing peace because, you know, all he knew was frenzied activity or just

total, just total dead stop and back and forth. And it was exhausting him. Yeah. And I think we could, and I think that's what we try to achieve with meditation. One of my other videos, I take issue with meditation and yoga. I think it's good. And when you're stressed out, the issue I take, and one of the things I suggest is interpersonal meditation, because regular meditation and yoga is good at calming yourself down, and that maybe enables you to connect to other people emotionally, but if you don't know how, you just calm down, and that's better than not being calmed down.

But interpersonal meditation, and I talk about the Hoover exercise, is whoever you're with, if you can know that they're listening for something and just be curious about it and non-judgmentally interested in it and having them talk more about it. And then watch what happens to them, what you're going to do is you're going to get a burst of oxytocin, the connection, the emotional connection, which counteracts cortisol. Whereas I think when you meditate, I'm not so sure you get oxytocin.

I think what happens is your cortisol goes down from the meditation in yoga. But oxytocin can counteract high cortisol also. And so I'm suggesting that to people. And you can do that by knowing whoever you're with is listening for something. So for instance, you're trying to break through to that teenager you're worried about who's depressed, maybe suicidal, maybe cutting on themselves.

And the conversation's not going anywhere good. Stop it and say to them, you were listening for something and I totally missed the boat. Are they going to go, what? you know, you were listening for ways to feel better because you're feeling awful and you're scared and you're overwhelmed. And when it's at its worst, sometimes you don't know how you're going to make it through the next half an hour. And you were listening for me to get that and get where you're coming from and just keep your company there because I love you.

And I blew it. So can you track with that? Tracking perfectly with it. And to go back to how you started off your answer there, you shared four things that I think are very powerful that when you take these driving behaviors, initiatives away, what you're left with is peace. And those are proving, showing, hiding, or pleasing. And when those are absent, what are we left with? We're left with peace and contentment. Is that an accurate way to understand that?

Yeah, I think we're left with awareness and just like awareness and curiosity. And if you're in an argument with someone, if you can shift to being aware and then be curious about what you're aware of, like, wow, boy, I went over the top when that person cut me off in traffic. I mean, I am, you know, I'm flirting with road rage. What is that about? And then you dip into that. Well, I'm flirting with road rage because, you know, I just got,

lectured or beat up at work or beat up at home. And I didn't want to make it get much worse, but I'm loaded for beer. You know, the next person that does that to me, they're going to get it. Wow. Wow. Maybe I do better than chasing after this person. Maybe I do better to try and have a conversation with those people that, you know, we're having a big conflict with. Yeah. So many of us are unaware of how the energy of the last situation we were in is constantly being brought into the next situation that we're in. So we're in a tough meeting at work.

We're talking to a client. We feel like we've been belittled on the meeting. we feel like we have maybe not given a voice or that some sort of other tension happened. We didn't have an outlet or didn't create a healthy outlet to sort of ask, hey, you know, just want to check in. Are you guys not happy about the project? Or is there something else that's on your mind? Is there something that's unexpressed that you want to share right now?

So either we got defensive back or we just internalized it and carried that. Then you hop into your car to drive home from work and you end up in this road. rage situation. You end up in the situation where somebody beeps at you and now you feel that you have to prove to them that you are the better driver or that you have the dominance on the road. And so much of life's altercations and these moments and these tension collisions that so many people are in and find themselves in is the lack of awareness of how we took the energy from one previous circumstance or situation didn't deal with it appropriately maybe didn't have the tools to deal with it many individuals and we took it right into the next situation and of course there was going to be

some sort of accident in a way whether it was a physical accident whether it was the class of two people's random tensions. And that's how the world, again, without awareness, ends up in a place where it's just one person's reaction with another person's reaction. It just takes one of us, maybe somebody who's listening today, to step out of that cycle of reactionary, reactionary, reactionary, reactionary behavior and stepping into awareness to say, hey, how do I want to choose to act in this moment? I want to share one of my funniest stories.

People love this story, and it builds on what you were saying, and it involves road rage. I was having one of the worst days of my life. It seemed like everything I touched blew up in my face. And I'm driving in Los Angeles, and I cut off someone in a pickup truck because I'm oblivious. And then I cut them off again. And I'm just out of it. And he pulls in front of me. And I'm so out of it, I just stop.

And I see that his wife is telling him, don't get out of the car. And I'm just watching them. And then he gets out of the car. I'm pretty, you know, I'm about 5'9. He's 6'5. He's huge. He comes over to my car. He bangs on the window.

And because I'm so. out of it, I lower the window. And he says, you cut me off twice, you know, you know, come out of there. I'm going to, you know, nobody does that to me. I'm going to, you know, you know, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to beat you up or something. Maybe I didn't lose all my wits because I looked at him and I said, have you ever had one of those days where everything you do is wrong and you're hoping to find someone who will put you out of that your misery? Are you the guy? He said, what? I said, I don't cut people off.

I don't cut people off twice. I'm having a day where nothing has gone right. And I'm looking for someone who can put me out of my misery. are you the guy? And immediately he switches it. He said, calm down. I said, you calm down. You know, I don't cut people off. You didn't have this day. And I'm going like that. And he's going, calm down, calm down, come on. I said, well, it's easy for you to say. You didn't mess up your day like I did. And look at this. Look what I did to you. And he said, it'll be okay. It'll be okay. You know, I said, well, you know, I don't think the day is over. And he goes back into his pickup truck.

you know, he sits there, he looks in the rearview mirror, and he waves to me, and he drives off. Was that genuinely how you felt? Was that negotiation tactic? Well, look, I have a lot of experience, so I don't know where the words came out, but I But, you know, I really felt that. I really felt like, you know, pull me out of the car and beat the heck out of me. I deserve it. I really messed up today. I'm going to share another tactic.

Here's something else. I love giving tactics because you were talking about, you know, something's gone wrong between you and another person. And I think this is in my book Talking to Crazy, which is about how to deal with irrational people. It's not about mental illness. because I don't want, I'm very compassionate. I don't want to insult the whole profession and add to the stigma. And it's called the FUD-Crud technique. So if you're there and something is, you know, blowing up and whatever,

and again, let them vent, you know, it's like they say, don't banter with a teenager. Let them vent. And then pause for a couple seconds. and say, you seem frustrated and I think you're really holding back. Are they going to say, what? Yeah, you seem frustrated and I think you're holding, I think you're really upset and disappointed too.

Can you fill me in on all that? And then you draw from them whatever they're frustrated about. And then you say, you know, if I was you, I'd be upset too. Tell me about what you're upset about. And that's a euphemism. You seem angry. But you don't want to say you seem angry because people say, I'm not angry. And then you pull that out of them.

And they could say, you know, and I think you're disappointed. Disappointed at me, disappointed that here we are in the same situation again. What's that about? And if you can do this and pull it out of them, you know, this is another technique of surgical empathy. You know, you're using this to pull all the anger up and out and out of harm's way. And when you get to the disappointment level, it's a much calmer conversation. And by the way, if you do this and you do it sincerely and you're emotionally present versus checking boxes, frequently they will apologize afterwards

because they've never experienced someone inviting of them to just non-judgmentally get their frustration out. So, you know, that I hope is another tool that people can use with all these other ex. We've done a lot of exercises today, Drew. They're very helpful, and I'm sure my audience loves them. You know, there's a,

topic that as especially for the folks my audience that are curious and think about and meditate on their future because meditating on their death and meditating on the end of their life is something that they find that brings them a sense of solace and a sense of joy for the fact that they're awake, alive, breathing today, and that they have a second shot at giving their best gifts to the world. For many of those individuals, one of the things that they're regularly thinking about, including myself, is the relationship between forgiveness and apologies and apologizing and how those topics look when we are in the process of dying. I've heard you share some of your insights on some of these and different interviews you've done.

So anything that you would like to share with our audience on the topics of forgiveness? Oh, Drew, you're so sly. You know what I'm going to share. I collect quotes. And my favorite quote of all time comes from Dr. Shawnee Duperon, and she and Jesmond Tutu, a former organization called Project Forgive. and the quote is forgiveness is accepting the apology you will never receive. And when she told me that, I had to pull over to the side of the road because it blew me away.

And I thought of my dad who could be very critical, he was good with numbers, and he had died 25 years earlier. And I immediately imagined the apology from him that I would never receive. And it went like this. You know, Mark, when I used to put you down, when you'd come up with your crazy ideas, and I'd say, well, what does that have to do with anything? And, well, what are you going to do with that? I was talking about myself. I'm good with numbers.

You know, and he was very good with numbers. He says, I'm not that creative. And whenever you got creative. it made me nervous. It reminded me of our CEO who was a larger than life person that, you know, I had to fix all the mistakes as the controller. But when I see what you've done with your life, Mark, when I see the people you've reached, when I see the lives you've saved, I don't deserve you as my son. And I'm sorry. And here's what I realized.

And I, because I believe that's what he would say from where he is, you know, down deep. What I realized is I owed him an apology. And so when I imagined him saying that to me, I accepted it. And I said, you know, I realize I owe you an apology. I've held a grudge against you. I've held a chip on my shoulder. I've sometimes used you as an excuse. Oh, yeah, my dad.

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you did the best you could. You know, you had a lot of fear. Could you take care of the family? You worked hard. You know, you may have emotionally, you know, been critical, but you really never abused us. You weren't an alcoholic.

And, you know, I'm the psychiatrist in the family. I should have known better, and I didn't. And I'm sorry. I'm sorry. and I can finally say some of the words that I hadn't been able to say and feel, which is, I love you, dad, and I miss you. It's beautiful. In this process of you sharing your lessons on your journey,

journey, especially in this phase of life where you say bluntly, you're very hopeful about these treatments, but you're looking at the, the reality and you're dying. What have you learned about self-forgiveness? And what do you want to tell the audience about self-forgiveness? Is there anything that you've had to forgive yourself for in this process? I've made a living. I mean, you know, I was able to support my children going through college. I didn't focus on money. You know, I think I made a difference. And, you know, I'm surrounded by people who, I'm not poor, but I'm the poorest, you know, of the people around me. And they, you know, they would take their families on trips, children, grandchildren, great trips. And we haven't done that.

Now, that said, I guess I did a good enough job because my daughters and their husbands and my grandchildren, you know, they're doing great, and they get to go on some of those trips. And, but, you know, when you're surrounded by people who tell you about going on this trip or this trip on their private jet or this yada, yada, yada, I would beat myself up about that. In fact, I remember, you know, a friend of mine, he's definitely. on the spectrum, but he's incredibly successful. And we went to a New Year's party

at his big home, and everyone was talking about all their trips over Christmas and whatnot. And we didn't take trips. I mean, you know, trust me, you know, we live in Los Angeles, we have a nice home, you know, you do day things. And I was just listening to everyone

talk about all their trips. And, you know, and so I is feeling less than. And this really touched me because this is not an emotional person. And he said to me, well, you look down. I said, well, you know, I would have liked to have taken my family on these trips that everybody here went on. And this was really touching.

And he looked at me and he said, I can make millions of dollars in my sleep. I can make $10 million of my sleep but I've never saved a life really got to me and so I've let that go you know because

at this stage of my life I want to make a difference I want to share in my I'm dying to tell you series things that might make a difference look I'm hoping from today's episode and you've been so generous

you know, that we've talked about and shared things that people can try and, you know, maybe even save them having to go to therapy. I don't know. And so I've let that one go. You know, the other insight that I had, similar to your friend who shared with you, is that there's so many people that are out there that have all the money in the world and would trade it just to have some individuals around them that truly actually loved them for who they are. And hearing you talk about your wife, hearing you talk about your kids,

that's a whole other component that's there. And as somebody who feels that I truly have won the lottery when it's come to family, my parents, my siblings, my two sisters, who I'm so close with, my brother-in-law's, my nephew, niece, there's so much love that's inside of that, and people fly all around the world looking for that love on private jets they go to the deepest extents of business and the earth anything not that it's always equated i i like to consider myself a successful entrepreneur and i have many friends who are balanced in both family and business and entrepreneurship but that currency that you have from a family that truly loves you for who you are, even if that's one person in your life that loves you, for those that are listening,

that's worth so much. And we don't often realize that until our values and what really matters comes into focus, especially if we are facing the perspective of our own mortality. I appreciate you sharing that story. That was really touching. Well, I appreciate you giving me a long leash and I ran with it. Mark, on a practical level, when you had the diagnosis, you shared with your family and you've shared with viewers on your YouTube that one of the important lessons that you're working on right now that you worked on and that you're continuing to work on is as somebody who's always been there for other people, as somebody who is often called in crisis, as somebody that was there that was brought into, save everybody else and had to make many sacrifices.

Part of your character became not wanting anybody to take care of you, not wanting anybody to sort of be able to be there for you. And that could have maybe shown up in different ways. But that's part of something that you're meditating on, you're focusing on, can you share a little bit about talking to your family about your diagnosis, the prospects of the future of treatment, what is likely, what is unlikely, and how you're working on getting better at letting them show up and be there for you? I think one of the reasons I give to live and I don't receive to live.

is when I'm in a state of giving, I come from abundance. When I'm in a state of receiving or, God forbid, asking for anything, I come from scarcity. And I know I should figure this one out. I'll share something, and I will get emotional, but I think I'm safe with you. My son, who's going to be my donor. And the way my family, my family is quiet. They're devoted.

They're on top of things. You know, my kids do all this research. You know, have you shared this with your hematologist and all that? And I wish we had deeper emotional conversations. We deeply love each other. But there was one incident where I said to my, son, I'm thinking of dying sooner than later because the thought of what I'm going to put this family through is devastating to me. And you have no idea what you're going to, you know, you're all busy

and, you know, I'm thinking of just doing the chemotherapy and let the chips fall where they fall. You know, and you can see, I mean, you're just getting a taste of it, but you can see kind of how I came off. and he looked at me and he said, he just started crying and he said, I don't want you to die. And the amount of caring that I let come through was huge. So I'm sort of using that a little bit as my true north. Like, you know, Mark, you're not a burden to others.

You're letting them care about you as a gift. In fact, one of the 20, 47 Club said to me, I want to thank you for the gift of receiving my caring. I want to thank you for letting it in and matter to you. So I still have a ways to go. I'm not fighting it anymore, people caring about me. You know, it's part of the journey, you know, because I've gone public I'm getting a lot of support. And I'm getting people that coming out of the woodwork that I haven't been in touch with in 20 years.

And the other day I was saying, wow, I'm getting to hear all the great eulogies without having to die. So I'm allowing that, Drew. in this process here, have you also allowed yourself to, as the kids call it these days, share those roses with people that you might have not had a chance to tell that you love and appreciate? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a fact, you know, I have a little bit of ADD and I'm a little disorganized. but the number of people after we have a conversation who say can we stay in touch once a month can we just have a catch-up call or something like that and I say absolutely but organizing it's going to be a challenge I can imagine can imagine Mark you know you've been in the space

for a while, best-selling author on the cutting edge of a lot of the research on so many different classifications, you know, from death and dying to negotiation and training, you know, the FBI and teaching people about the latest advancements in mirror neurons or, you know, the power of listening. Have you at all had any exposure or any interest in the role that psychedelics? play as individuals are thinking about end of life, care as well as insight? Is that a subject at all that you have looked into or have experienced? I was just personally curious, and I wanted to ask you about the topic. Well, not so much about end of life. In working with people, some people say, you're like a psychedelic, Mark. And so I'd be interested in what you think of this conceptualization.

One person said, you know, I'm tightly wound and it helps me stay focused. I accomplish stuff, but being tightly wound also works against me. I can be able. I can be critical. I can be controlling. And it can reach a point where, you know, I'll lose a relationship or something. And the psychedelics take away control from me. And I intellectually know being controlling isn't that great in many ways. But I can't let go of control.

and psychedelics, one person said, it's kind of like I'm this rubrics cube and life happens and I always figure it out and make the rubrics cube the way it looked in the wrapper. But what I've discovered is the way it looks in the wrapper is not adapted to real life. It's just how it looked in the wrap. rapper. But it's almost like I go back to that. And when I go on psychedelics, it's like someone

just spun the rubrics cube. And in the middle of it, I feel like I'm in free fall, you know, free anxiety. I want to throw up. I have diarrhea. I have all this stuff. That's why I've needed a shaman or a therapist who's skilled and just tell me, no, that's, uh, uh, you're just, you're just, you're just letting go of control because the psychedelics have taken it away and, you know, it'll be okay. And then on the other end, this person said on the other end, the Rubrics Cube has solved itself, but it doesn't look like it looks in the wrapper. It looks like it looks, it looks like it looks, it looks like it looks like it looks like it's connected to the life I want to be living. and so I have a way, I guess, with surgical empathy

where people feel very safe. I'm also the co-founder of the deeper coaching institute at On Global Leadership, OnGlobal Leadership.com. So I still do a little of that. So people who have an experience from coaching where they discover things about themselves that don't have anything to do with performance, but they have everything to do with their life.

There's some people who say, I want to go deeper. I mean, this has fundamentally changed the way I am in my family. And so the deeper coaching institute goes way deeper. Because a lot of people who aren't trained as therapists will say, well, it sounds like you have a number of limiting beliefs. And let's see what those are. And let's see if we can adjust them. Or it sounds like you might benefit from emotional intelligence, and that could help your life.

And I know these coaches. Some of them are very close friends, but it's not deeper. So I will dive in. And some of the people I work with, they say, I can't hide from you. I feel completely safe with you. I have not detected one inkling of your being judgmental. I don't think it's part of who you are. And some of them are smiling at me and they're saying,

you know, I got a lot of hang-ups. And they just open up about them. And it frees them, you know, because I'm not judgmental. I'm curious like, wow, how long have you had that one? How did that start? Wow. How hung up are you about it? Are you embarrassed about it?

And so that's why I'm saying. Some people say, this is like a psychedelic experience because, first of all, I can't hide from you. It's kind of like I gave you a mini taste when I said, are you listening for this about your audience? This is what you're listening for underneath the interview and, you know, wanting to have a complete interview that, you know, you really want your audience to come back and say, Drew, Mark was great. I mean, he really helped me. So I don't know if you can identify with that, but a number of people I know of you've used psychedelics

have said that's exactly what happens. I'm a controlling person. It takes away control. I momentarily decompensate. But then, There's a great, I just wrote a blog about being an optimist about the world. And it's out on Substack. And I quote Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

And the subtitle is, the pendulum goes both ways. And what I talked about is all through history, nothing static and extremes are the extreme ends of pendulums and it might take a long time but they switch the pendulum switches you know if there's a way to reduce how long we're stuck in extremism and the violence and hate we see boy I'm all open to it but if we look at history

the Civil War happened, the Great Depression happened, World War I, World War II happened. And again, I don't want to elongate the world we find ourselves in. And I'm saying that because I think people who get benefit from psychedelics, they've been stuck in an extreme position. Oh, I know how to be successful. I know how to get things done, but something's just not right. I'm just not happy. You know, I'm drinking too much. I'm doing some stuff that's not really healthy for me.

And, you know, and I yelled at my teenager. And, you know, she just went off the deep end. And I said, what is wrong with me? So I need to do something. So can you resonate with any of that metaphor that I just shared? Yeah, I think you're sharing from your own experience and I mean, that's why I asked you the question. So I appreciate you sharing that. Mark, as we're winding down here, you know, just a couple more questions that I wanted to ask before we talk about how individuals can keep posted on your journey and follow along here as you continue to share insights.

Feel free to say skip if this isn't a question that you want to answer. but do you have any beliefs about what happens after we die and how important is faith to you or spirituality or a greater sense of something beyond us in this phase of your life? I had a weird experience a couple weeks ago. I think I have a video about this. I don't think I exist. I literally do not think I think I. I exist. I think I only exist to be of service. And I see myself not as a coach, but as a

catalyst, you know, trying to help the world heal itself one conversation at a time. And I, and it was a weird feeling like, I guess people would say, you know, that's either spiritual or that's psychedelic mark. I mean, I just felt, you know, this sense of peace with the universe. And, I mean, I really felt it all through me that, you know, I literally, I'm a catalyst. And catalysts are not created or destroyed by what they do, you know, but I'm a catalyst. to, you know, you know, kind of run out of time and, you know, there's room for other catalysts in the world. And so that sort of coincides.

I think when people share, you know, I did that thing that you suggested. It saved my kid's life. we were getting divorced and now we're not. And boy, is that satisfying. And I'm creating the I'm dying to tell you because, you know, I'd like it to live on in some ways. I have several people I've mentored who have created a Mark Goulston bot. Because I have a lot of content, 10 books. 1,200 articles, you know, hundreds of interviews.

And it's pretty good, you know, and they'll launch it somewhere. And I said it needs to be a little bit more empathic because I said it comes off as two artificial intelligence. You know, it's nice practical advice. but people say that, you know, there's something about my tone that's calming. You know, it's not just the words, it's whatever. So they're working on that. You know, they want it to, they want the bot to not just sound like what I'd say, but feel like what I'd say.

Well, that's beautiful. I can't wait to try it out there when it's public and it's available. Mark, I want to be respectful of your time here. given us so much of it in honor of all the beautiful things that you have to share and what you've been sharing with our audience and your viewers in this incredible YouTube series. I've already sent the videos to a handful of the videos to different friends and family members of mine that I'm Dying to Tell You series, which we have linked to below in YouTube and people can watch it online.

Where else can our audience keep in touch? Is there any final words that you want to share with individuals on the interview today? Well, my LinkedIn is fairly current. You can check out on global leadership, and it's DCI, which is the deeper coaching institute. My website, Markgoolston.com, I'll be around for a while. It's going to get renovated by these people creating the Mark Gouldston bot. And so you'll probably be able to find it at markgoolston.com. We're redoing it.

I got headshots. And I'm glad I got them before my hair falls out. You can find my books on Amazon. I guess what I'd leave the audience with is. Oh, also I have a TEDx talk called. what made you smile today? And I did it before the pandemic, and I wanted to start a movement where you go up to people and if they've served you, many of them just feel like an appliance.

And it could be a TSA agent. You see their name tag and you say, hey, Jack. a thank you. I have a question for you. And no, you're not in any trouble. You know, if you're saying this to a waiter, waitress. And they'll say what? And it's the tone of inviting, hey, Jack, what made you smile today? And they will pause. They will look up and they'll come back and you will see a smile in their eyes when they tell you. And I remember we were turning in a car about six months ago, and this woman did a great job. And I thanked her, and I said, what made you smile today? And she looked at me, and she said, I've had a bad couple days, and every time I have a break, I go into the bathroom to cry. And I called my dad and my grandpa, and a couple hours ago they came in. and she smiled, she teared up, I teared up, and I said, oh, that's a good one.

And then we had wristbands, hashtag WMYST. In fact, if you look up, hashtag WMYST, take the WMYST challenge, and you'll take you to a link on my website that has my TEDx talk, my asking Larry King about what made him smile today, my my doing that as an icebreaker to a thousand Russian business people in Moscow. And they said to me, you know, doctor or thought leader, you know, we hope you don't do any exercises. And I said, that's all I do. And that's on my YouTube channel. And what happened is they stared at me like dears in the headlights.

And I said, come on, come on, come on, come on. Go up to someone you don't know and say, what made you smile today? I said, I'm not talking until you do this. And then they started to get up, and many of them got up. And they started talking, and they started laughing. And I said, and I had a shush them. I said, come on, I got to give a presentation here. So it's a good icebreaker.

So what made you smile today, Drew? In the morning, my parents sent me a bunch of beautiful images from their trip to India. They're in India right now, traveling with some siblings of theirs, and just seeing them out there with their family, my dad's brother, my uncle, and just wake up in the morning, sending a photo of like a beautiful garden, which I know is my dad's happy place, being out there in the sun. Just seeing that made me smile. You know, it's interesting because I'm kind of isolated. I stay in my house, I wear an N95 surgical mask. I stay away from my wife and grandchildren. And I've learned to live vicariously through people. So as you were describing it, I could see the pictures. I could see you looking at the

pictures. I could see you smiling as you looked at the pictures. And that made me. me smiled true. Thank you for that question, Mark, and thank you for the reflection back to me on that. Mark, I want to thank you so much for coming on this podcast, sharing your journey, documenting all your lessons and taking the time here to share with the world, insights that are important for all of us to reflect on that hopefully allow individuals to step out of the, all of the Often self-created rat race, of course, there are some deep societal issues, and we need to make the world a better place for a lot of people that are there. But the things that we worry about, the things that we give significant to, that I'm not even hearing you say that they shouldn't be worried about, and I'm not saying that.

But maybe we don't have to deprioritize what matters, and we don't have to have other things at the expense of those things. We're all going to worry about a few things here and there, especially as we build our lives, build our family, build our careers. But we can't forget about what matters the most. And today you've reminded us about that. So I want to thank you for doing just that on the podcast today. So one last word to build on what you just said. My first book was called Get Out of Your Own Way.

And there are short chapters, three pages, four pages. And it's done pretty well. came out in 26, no, excuse me, in 95 or 96, and it continues to sell, made the Wall Street Journal bestseller list about a year ago. One of the chapters is trying to take care of everyone in life and it has usable insights at the end. And basically, it said, everything in our life competes for time, none of it competes for importance. My wife is my most important wife. My children are the most important children. Right now, here with you, this is my most important podcast and conversation. And so you can compartmentalize in terms of those things you're worried about.

you can and one of the ways you take care of it is you schedule it and you and you schedule that time because most people don't flake out on their calendars and you schedule that time for what you're going to worry about and then but turn the worry into taking action learn what you need to do come up with something and take action as opposed to just staying stuck there spinning your wheels and one of those scheduled times in which all you do is spin your wheels. So I'm not saying forget about the things you're worried about, but calendar time for these important things,

if people are going to follow through with some of my suggestions, it'll make you nervous, but calendar that time when you're going to have that hoover conversation with someone. You know, when you're going to meet with that spouse or child, and apologize to them for giving them advice and solutions when they didn't want that. The most of important reminders. Mark, thank you so much for your work. Thank you for being a mentor to so many.

Your work and legacy will continue to live on in the work that you do. And I appreciate even just this two hours here with you on the podcast. today. Thank you. Well, thank you, Drew. And, and if you want to follow through, I'm game. If you are, you don't have to join the 24-7 club, but, you know, we can follow through in some fashion. I would love to. I wouldn't want to be a burden to the list of people that already want to follow through, but it'd be the biggest delight in my world. I'd love to be a part of the process. Let's make it happen. And all we have to do is schedule it. Yes, absolutely. Mark, thank you so much. Thank you.

Hi, everyone, Drew here. Two quick things. Number one, thank you so much for listening to this podcast. If you haven't already, subscribe, just hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast app. And by the way, if you love this episode, it would mean the world to me. And it's the number one thing that you can do to support this podcast is share it with a friend. Share with a friend who would benefit from listening. Number two, before I go, I just had to tell you about something. something that I've been working on that I'm super excited about. It's my weekly newsletter, and it's called Try This. Every Friday, yes, every Friday, 52 weeks a year, I send out an easy-to-digest

protocol of simple steps that you or anyone you love can follow to optimize your own health. We cover everything from nutrition to mindset, to metabolic health, sleep, community, longevity, and so much more. If you want to get on this email list, which is, by the way, free and get my weekly step-by-step protocols for whole body health and optimization, click the link in the show notes that's called Try This or just go to Drew Perot.com. That's D-H-R-U-P-U-R-O-H-I-T dot com and click on the tab that says try this.