Dhru Purohit Show - “I Fixed My Mental Illness Using the Ketogenic Diet” - How Hannah Warren Put Her Bipolar Disorder Into Remission Following this Groundbreaking Protocol

Episode Date: December 14, 2023

This episode is brought to you by Bioptimizers, LMNT, and Lifeforce. Today on The Dhru Purohit Podcast, Dhru sits down with Hannah Warren. Hannah shares her experience of being diagnosed with bipolar disorder and her journey in implementing dietary and lifestyle changes, including fasting, exercise, and meditation, that helped her feel more like herself after experiencing manic episodes and suicidal ideations.* Hannah Warren is an artist, writer, and social entrepreneur. She joined Baszucki Group and its Metabolic Mind initiative as a Mental Health Communications and Advocacy Manager. Hannah volunteers with the Brain Energy Movement, started by Dr. Christopher Palmer, to spread awareness of the brain energy theory. In this episode, Dhru and Hannah dive into (audio version / Apple Subscriber version): Hannah’s bipolar diagnosis and her journey (4:44 / 4:44)  The health modalities that Hannah used to help her with her diagnosis (22:11 /18:40) Brain energy and the role of cleaning your mitochondria (34:20 / 28:34)  What contributed to Hannah’s mitochondrial disruption (38:19 / 32:51) The role of trauma and mental illness (43:51 / 39:07 ) How Hannah started metabolic and ketogenic therapy (48:20 / 42:46) Hannah’s daily schedule, diet, and journey to move toward ketogenic therapy (55:46 / 47:47) Advice for anyone helping individuals suffering from mental health conditions (1:15:54 / 1:10:27) Misconceptions about metabolic therapy (1:20:47 / 1:15:20 ) How to get started in making small changes in your lifestyle (1:27:22 /1:21:50) Hannah’s journey to educate others on the options of metabolic therapy (1:32:46 /1:27:20 ) Why this discussion is pivotal for those suffering from mental health challenges (1:34:17 / 1:28:40 ) Also mentioned in this episode: A 17-year lag in research  Metabolic Mind This holiday season, thrive with Magnesium Breakthrough. Just go to magbreakthrough.com/dhru and enter promo code dhru10 for 10% off any order. Right now, LMNT is offering my listeners a free sample pack with any purchase. Head over to DrinkLMNT.com/dhru today. Right now, get 15% off your first purchase of Lifeforce at Mylifeforce.com with code DHRU. *Disclaimer: Although Hannah was able to adjust her medications and start a ketogenic diet safely on her own, not all people can. We strongly recommend that people work with their healthcare providers to adjust medications and/or start therapeutic ketogenic diets as a treatment for mental health conditions. Please note that the testimonial featured today is only a reflection of her story, and nothing shared in this episode by Hannah Warren or host Dhru Purohit should be taken as medical advice. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The positive stories like mine, almost two and a half years with no medication, and this is someone, history is shown. Within a year, I would have full-blown mania if I didn't have this ketogenic therapy as an intervention. That is what is keeping me stable. That is what has made it so that I no longer need these medications with all of these terrible side effects, has restored my quality of life, and just made things better than I ever possibly thought they could have been. There is a growing group of people all around the world that are using the ketogenic diet. Yes, you heard that right, the ketogenic diet and metabolic therapies to place their severe mental health diagnoses, including, by the way, bipolar disorder, severe depression and even schizophrenia disorders into remission. Yes, into remission.

And on today's podcast, we're featuring one of these individuals by allowing them. to share their full testimonial in detail. Hi, everyone. I'm Drew Perraud here with an awe-inspiring episode today with Hannah Warren. Now, back in July of 2021, Hannah started a ketogenic diet, ketogenic therapy, and ultimately put her bipolar 1 disorder into complete remission. This experience inspired her to devote her career to disseminating the science of metabolic therapies and working to make them a first-line treatment option that everyone was aware of.

Hannah has served as a volunteer with the brain energy movement, started by Dr. Chris Palmer, who by the way has been on this podcast before, talking about the brain energy theory of mental health, which we are going to be diving into today, and Hannah work with them to spread awareness around the brain energy theory and how powerful the ketogenic diet can be, whether it's applied a lot of. alone in some instances or as an adjunct to medication and traditional interventions.

Today, Hannah actively implements the treatments for neuromatabolic dysfunction, including ketogenic therapy, intermittent fasting, exercise, and even meditation. In her free time, Hannah's working on a book about her experiences that you are going to learn about in detail today called The Radiant Beast, the mitochondrial pathway. Now, a little bit more about Hannah. Hannah is an artist, writer, and social entrepreneur. She recently joined the Bazuki Group and its initiative, Metabolic Mind, which is an incredible resource, by the way. Check it out in the show notes and after this podcast.

She joined them in November of 2023 as a mental health communications and advocacy manager, the perfect role for her. These organizations, both of them, the Bazuki Group and Metabolic Mind, are focused on advancing the science of metabolic psychiatry to drive long-term systemic change in the mental health field, while equipping patients, families, and clinicians with resources to implement metabolic therapies today. Now, a quick legal disclaimer, although Hannah, who will talk about it in today's interview, was able to adjust her medications and start the ketogenic diet safely on her own, not all people can. This is important to remember.

There are serious risks with stopping medication on your own. Dr. Chris Palmer has been on this podcast before. he is the founder and author of the brain energy movement and brain energy theory, and he has shared that he strongly, strongly recommends that people work with their health care provider to adjust medications and or start therapeutic ketogenic diets as a treatment for mental health conditions. Now, that legal disclaimer out of the way, let's jump into this powerful testimonial from Hannah Warren on how she placed her bipolar one disorder into remission using the ketogenic diet and other metabolic therapies.

Hannah, welcome to the podcast. A pleasure to have you here. I want to read something mind-blowing that you wrote on your website as an introduction to your story. You wrote, I have experienced three severe psychotic breaks that required hospitalization.

I was diagnosed with bipolar 1 disorder and repeatedly told I had a lifelong chronic illness. After discovering the work of Dr. Chris Palmer, who's been on this podcast before, a Harvard psychiatrist and author of Brain Energy, I implemented metabolic therapies that put my neuromatabolic dysfunction into remission. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy you are in remission. Let's start from the beginning. When did you first receive your diagnosis?

So it was a little over a decade ago when I was just 28 that I had my first, as I mentioned, psychotic break. And I always now realize that I should really frame what a psychotic break even means. I think a lot of people hear that word and they imagine someone who's kind of violent. You know, they think of the word psychotic. But when I'm talking about psychotic, I mean psychosis. So I went into a really delirious state, very delusional, just started believing things that were completely out of reality, had this feeling like I could fly, like I was about to be able to enter into heaven like I was going to be able to meet God. That's what I mean by psychosis. And it really was something for me that came absolutely out of nowhere. I was actually in a really exciting point in my life.

I had received a large global grant scholarship from Rotary International to get my master's degree. So I was abroad studying in London at London College of Fashion. The scholarship was going to help me with a nonprofit organization. I had founded in India called Jule. And I had been a hard worker. I didn't drink. I was a really dedicated student, wanted nothing more than to get this organization off the ground, which was empowering women, giving them opportunities to gain economic independence through employment and garment manufacturing. And, you know, even my mom had come to visit me a couple weeks before I had my episode and didn't see any signs that anything was going wrong. It was just incredibly sudden. And as you can imagine, very frightening.

People often ask me if I had had any symptoms of bipolar disorder before, if I knew that something could be wrong. And I think when I look back, anything that could have been seen as a symptom of my disorder would have been some form of hypomania that seemed like it had been helpful up to that point. You know, being a very dedicated student, having a lot of energy, passion, and enthusiasm, being able to start this nonprofit organization and get a lot of support for it at a young age. but it had never occurred to me that this could tip over into something that was full-blown mania, that I could lose touch with reality and, you know, need to be hospitalized. And unless you've experienced something like that, it's really hard for anyone to even comprehend what that feels like because you're in a state where you can't even understand that you're sick. Like you just really are in another world.

You know, I so appreciate you not only being vulnerable on this podcast, but dead. dedicating your life and your mission to telling your story because it can be a tough and challenging thing to talk about. But because you've come now on the other side of things, you have a few important goals that are there that you want to highlight. You want to make people feel understood who are going through this themselves if they've gotten a diagnosis. You want family members to know that there's other options available in their treatment protocols. that are there. You want people to take the stigma away with mental health by making it more of a dialogue. And you want to bring transparency to this world where a lot of people are told the same thing

that you were told. You wrote for almost a decade, I believe the clinicians that my bipolar one disorder was a life sentence. And that, to expand on that, that the only option was just continuous medication. So I want to come back to the last thing you said, just to set the stage for this, you had mentioned that you feel like you were in another world. And one of the things in your first episode that you had there, if I understand correctly, that was in London, is that you saw a sign that was written at a church. Is that correct? Can you share what that sign was and what that led to? It said, like, I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember the exact words, but even the devil can come disguised as an angel of light. I will never forget

seeing that sign and seeing that church because basically I had been in my apartment alone, writing a paper when the psychosis kind of slowly hit me over a number of days. I don't know how many days, but I would guess three or four days. I was awake in that apartment by myself and starting to become delusional. And I kind of wandered out into the streets, not nowhere, you know, where, and where I was going with just a backpack and wandered into that church where they were teaching English as a second language classes. And I was asking for them to please introduce me to God. And I felt very confident that I would get an opportunity to meet God. I wanted to have a few words with him, her, because I was starting to get really upset about so many injustices in the world.

My heart really felt broken at that point in so many ways. And in that delusional space, I just thought that I really could have this conversation with God. God and was ready for it. In fact, you felt so confident that you actually had one of the students translate a message for you in Hindi. Is that right? No, yeah, I actually, because one of the women there was speaking in Urdu, which you know is sister language to Hindi, and I speak Hindi. So I actually started conversing with her, which I think scared the person who was running the class even more. just like what is this person talking about here? She is asking to speak with God, and now she's speaking Urdu.

I think it was very unsettling because I'm like, do you speak any Hindi? I can kind of make do with that. We're basically saying, can you introduce me to God? Yeah, yeah. And I felt so certainly that was possible. We're smiling and giggling a little bit about it now. But at that time, I can even imagine for the people that are going through this,

and this is what you hear from a lot of family members whose own families are going through a mental health crisis, is that it's extremely scary because you're trying to relate to the person. You want to talk to them, but they're not fully here, and they're going through the psychosis. And then in some cases, often I've seen it with more young men, it actually could be a violent episode if this has been prolonged or they haven't gotten treatment. So the whole thing can be extremely scary for people to go through. Well, I mean, it was horrifying just being there because I really.

felt like I wanted to be safe in that church. And I had this incredible fear. Like I said, I wanted to talk to God. I wanted to meet God. I felt like that would bring me safety. But of course, instead, they called the police who had to drag me out kicking and screaming by force and take me to the inpatient facility where I was hospitalized. So you can imagine how horrifying that is. Of course. This episode is brought to you by Buy Optimizers. So this holiday season is coming up or we're in it, depending on when you're listening to the this episode. And some of us might be feeling a little bit overwhelmed. I get it. I've been there. November, December, the demands that come with it. Holiday parties, ugly sweater parties,

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So after the police came, take us from there. What happened? Yeah, so they took me to an inpatient physician. facility that was a psych ward. And when I got there, you know, of course I couldn't understand at all that this was a psychiatric facility because I was that sick. And I still believed that maybe I was on the way to meet God. I was entering a kind of gateway limbo state before I would finally be able to get to heaven. But it was also very frightening once I got there. And there was a part of me that believed in all of these conspiracy theories and that, you know, I was kidnapped and I was going to be

killed. So you can imagine how traumatic it is. There's a part of me that I feel like I've been through that experience of feeling what it's like to be murdered because they held me down and injected me with antipsychotics. And at the time, I literally thought they were killing me. Wow. Wow. Where did they take you? And at one point in time, did they reach out to your family to let them know that you were in the ward? I believe they reached out to my family pretty quickly. I don't know how all of that happened. Maybe it was through the university because I did tell them where I was studying. But my family found out pretty quickly and I spoke to them on the phone. And at what point in time were you able to see your family? So because I was there on a scholarship, there was a special insurance actually that covered my dad to come visit me. So he came within, I want to say, a week or so to see me, which it was great having him there because you can imagine such a scary experience like this was even worse because I did have a few friends there because I'd actually done my undergris. graduate degree in London too. So some of them came to see me. But it's such a shocking thing to see

someone who you know who's high functioning competent, normal person, and then all of a sudden to see them in the state. I think it was shocking to my friends, shocking to my dad, of course. And he kept trying to tell them, you know, my daughter, you know, she got a first class degree in her undergrad here in London. And she started this nonprofit organization. Like, he's just trying to tell them, And this is, she's not, this is not my daughter. We don't understand, you know, what happened and how it happened so quickly. At some point in time, you stabilized and you started to understand that you had had an episode.

Can you talk about that? And honestly, it wasn't even until I would say that I was actually back in the U.S. at home that I really started to understand what had happened. And I'll never forget kind of that first moment that I started to realize, like, wake up be like, what the all just happened to me? I mean, it was, I was at a park with my niece and nephew after I had gotten back in the U.S. And it was just like then the gravity of everything hit me. Like, what happened? Like how, and I felt like did I get some kind of poisoning? Like, how did I lose my mind like that so quickly and so completely? And I think the one of the hardest things

that people have to deal with with a bipolar one diagnosis is at least in my subjective experience that when I started to get my consciousness back, it was like I had returned to a life that was very unfamiliar than the one I had had prior to my diagnosis. As I said, it was an exciting point in my life. I felt on top of the world and like I had so many exciting things before me. And I was just crushed, devastated. I felt like a broken person. I felt like I had severe brain damage. I felt this deep debilitating depression that really lasted for about a year after that first episode. And, you know, I just, after I regained my consciousness, I still felt like my cognition wasn't repaired.

Like I said, like I had brain damage. But I also felt incessant suicidality. Like I had these suicidal thoughts, but it felt like they weren't logical thoughts that I was having on purpose. It was more like this compulsive feeling that I just couldn't stand the feeling of being in my own skin. Every day that I woke up, I just couldn't believe I was waking up. to this reality, it felt so difficult to get dressed, to brush my teeth, to get ready for the day.

It was just like I was weighted down in a way I'd never felt before. At this point in time, I believe you were placed on antipsychotic meds, right? Yes. And as a byproduct of that, you were both stable. This is why we're so thankful for modern day medication, right? You were stable while you were on the meds. but there was a few other things that were there. You've hinted to a few of them.

You had brain fog. You didn't feel like you had much of a drive. You didn't feel like you wanted to exercise. And also, which a lot of patients in the same category of whether it's bipolar or schizophrenia or some of these more severe mental health diagnosis, when they're placed on medication, the byproduct is they also notice quite a severe change in their body. composition. This happened to you as well, too, right? Yeah, I put on over 70 pounds, more than 70 pounds in under six months. And what did the doctors tell you at the time? Did they tell you that this would be,

you know, this just happens. This is something that you're going to have to live with. When I was first put on the medication after the initial episode, I was told by some clinicians in London that there was a chance the episode was actually a fluke and maybe I did not have a chronic condition. So they said, you know, stay on these medications for six months. After that, you you can experiment with going off of them. But if you have another episode after that, then really you're going to have to accept that you have bipolar disorder and you're going to need to take these medications indefinitely if you want to maintain your mental stability. So I did take those medications for about six months and put on more than 70 pounds. Felt awful. So of course,

I wanted to experiment with going off of them. And I went off the medication. I worked my butt off exercising, dieting, all that stuff, I actually managed to lose all the weight and started to feel like myself again slowly to get my energy back, to have my hope, enthusiasm, creativity, all of that start coming back to me. Sure enough, within a year, though, I had a full-blown second manic episode, which you can imagine how devastating that was after working so hard to try to regain my health, only to have it happen again. And that was really heartbreaking for me. And after that second episode, I thought, well, I guess that's it. And that's when the advice was if you don't want to end up in a psychiatric hospital again,

which really is like living in a prolonged nightmare when you're in that kind of manic state. So I would do anything I could to avoid that. So my choice was, you know, deal with all of these side effects or potentially end up manic and hospitalized. So I thought that was my only choice was to take those medications if I wanted. to stay stable and sane. And that's what you did. You took the medications. That's what I did.

And you did your best to try to move forward and be a functioning human being and a productive member of society. At some point in time, you started experimenting with some health modalities just as you were researching on your own. Yeah. So I guess it was about seven years that I was taking those medications and felt like I was in this kind of limbo, you know, where I was. I had to deal with the impact on my health and the chronic fatigue and brain fog, feeling like I had

no creativity or passion for life anymore. And then eventually, I did start to integrate these more holistic modalities, as you mentioned. One of the first things I discovered was fasting. And I started doing some prolonged and intermittent fasting. And I could see really a lot of benefits from that. At the time, I had no idea about the brain energy theory by Dr. Christopher Palmer. I had no idea that fasting was something that could be particularly treating my bipolar disorder, but I could feel immediate benefits when I would get into a fasted state and be in deep ketosis. And when I started doing a lot of different holistic things, so at the time, intermittent fasting, I started jogging a lot, meditating, journaling, using a lot of positive reframing techniques,

you know, a lot of cheerleading to myself to give myself hope that there would be a better reality. And it's interesting now that things are so much better than I ever thought they would be. I can go back to journal entries. And I was just reading one the other day that was really trying to give myself hope saying, you know, I can envision a much better reality where you have your energy back. But you're always going to have to deal with this chronic condition. you're going to find a way to do that. So the fact that I have now discovered that perhaps that was

not the truth and this is not a lifelong chronic illness and I'm really in remission and fully have my health back is just something I never expected and it's incredible. Well, at least you had some hope even then. Yes. And that hope is what kept driving me forward, right? How did your family, what was their sort of state and And what was their mental health like at that moment? You know, it takes a lot. It takes a lot of, it's very taxing on caregivers and people to be supportive in the process. Were they open to some of these explorations that you were doing?

And also, you know, one of the disclaimers that we have for this interview is, obviously, people shouldn't make changes to their medications without the supervision of their own medical doctor. You know, people need a support and a team and everything. But were your physicians involved during this time? were they letting you know or saying, okay, look, it's not going to make a difference, but just if you want to try stuff, go for it. Well, I think it's important for me to kind of point out sequentially how this took place because I was doing a lot of these metabolic therapies without knowing they were metabolic

therapies, the fasting, meditation, exercise. And then I got to a point where I'd realized it had been, you know, about seven years that I'd been stable on medication. And that's where I did something that, like you said, is ill-advised. I would not tell anyone to make the mistake I did and just go off medication. But I was at a point where I really wanted to see if I could be off of my medication and remain stable. So I went off and it was about a year of being off medication before I had that kind of relapse, third and hopefully forever final episode. And it was really interesting to me, almost kind of evidence that the brain energy theory is true and that

things like fasting are deeply healing is that my third episode was by far the least severe of my three episodes, which usually you hear that each consecutive psychotic manic episode gets worse. And the fact that my third was less severe is really interesting to me. But I did have that third relapse episode. And it was at that point after getting out of the hospital that, you know, I kind of came to this point where I thought I would rather deal with all the risks entailed with an episodic illness, then have to keep living in this numb limbo state where I just basically don't feel like I have any quality of life, any passion, any creativity. I'm like, even if this means that I really am at risk of having another manic episode and all the kind of irresponsible choices

you can make during that time, people can become suicidal during that time. But I thought I just can't cope with living this way any longer. And that's when I discovered the work of Dr. Christopher Palmer because I thought maybe at least there's some kind of alternative that would be able to help me. And when I found the concept of metabolic therapies, it just completely clicked because he talks about ketogenic therapy works as a fasting mimicking diet. So really like when you're in the fasting state, your body begins to go through this process of mitophagy and mitochondrial biogenesis that's really healing you at the cellular level. And when I read that the science behind this theory, it really resonated and made sense

in terms of my experience. So I felt a lot of faith that this could actually work. And at that point, when I decided to try this and I told my family about it, they were supportive. I tried to get help from clinicians. I tried to find people with skills in metabolic psychiatry, anyone who could help me, who would accept my insurance. I was willing to drive an hour and a half. I was willing to do telehealth. I could not find any help. But I did my best to do it in a responsible way. It's not that you're being rejected. You literally could not find anybody that was even trained in this background. It's such an emerging field that it's still very difficult to find qualified

clinicians. So in an ideal world, there would be people who could help you. But I think at the very least at this point, if you can get your own care team on board to know what you're doing and try to monitor you the best that they can, that's kind of the next best option. So I did, you know, see a therapist. People knew what I was going through. My general practitioner knew what I was doing. so those things can really help at least have some system in place. But I was very lucky in that ketogenic therapy just really worked like a charm for me. You know, I had talked about how after my first two episodes I dealt with over a year of really dangerous depression.

And I think now the driving force for why I'm out here telling my story is that person who I was, that depression that I experienced is so foreign from my experience of life today. where I'm a very positive, upbeat person. And if I don't go out of my way to remember it, I could basically forget that it exists. But when I remember the gravity of that pain and the fact that I really barely survived my neurometabolic dysfunction, I am lucky that I'm here today. There were many times that I think if there would have been an easy way to end my life, that I would have done it.

I was very lucky in that, you know, nobody I knew owned a gun. I think what kept me from killing myself is always this thought that I might do something wrong and end up even worse off than I already was. You know, but that person who I was is so far from who I am now, but I remind myself because I know there's countless people struggling today whose lives are literally at risk. And I think we need to do everything that we can to promote better, more comprehensive, and effective treatments that can give people hope. I'll never forget talking to one of my friends about my severe depression.

And he said to me, you know, there's going to be a day that you're so happy that you decided not to end your life. I didn't believe him. I didn't believe him at all. Well, I'm thankful to that friend. I'm thankful for your family, the support system that you had. You know, we're lucky that we live in a day and age where there's more conversation about mental health than ever.

but largely that conversation in America, but also most of the Western world is focused on access, right? Awareness and access. Hey, don't, you know, stigmatize people who have mental health issues. Hey, have awareness, be able to talk about it. People should talk about it. People are struggling. They're going through tough times on the spectrum of mental health issues that are there.

But really, a lot of the work that you're involved with now, especially as part of like metabolic mind, the initiative that you're part of, part of the nonprofit, is like, well, great, that's a start and that's an important start. But there's a next level to this. And the next level to this is that maybe there's a strong aspect to just the same way that somebody could get cancer and then be, you know, have it be in remission. The same thing could happen with these severe mental health disorders, they'd say actually a bigger part of it is not just a complete, quote-unquote, brokenness of the mind, which is how people saw things in mental health for a long time and still see them today. But rather, there's a state that's being created inside of the body and the brain

that could create what we describe on the outside as bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or some of these other diagnosis that are there. So that this is something that people, could possibly get better from, right? That's the mission and the work that you're up to. If you had to describe brain energy, you know, you're talking. You flew out here from, where's home base? Chicago area, small city called Rockford. So you're going to fly out here and people are saying, what are you up to? And someone says, well, give me the basics of brain energy, right? How would you describe it? This episode is brought to you by Life Force. Are you ready to unlock the secrets

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because I see everything through the frame of my experience as a person in remission from bipolar disorder. It's all through that lens of lived experience. I'm not a clinician. So I think if anybody really wants to learn about this, they should definitely purchase a copy of brain energy, which is a phenomenal book. You know, throughout my journey of healing, I read a lot of wonderful self-development books that impacted me. But brain energy is the only book that has fundamentally transformed my life. And, you know, I could read that book over and over as I try to understand the complex science. So at this stage, it's important to remember that this is an emerging field, which means there's a lot of science that needs to get figured out still, a lot of research that's currently being done. So clinicians have a variety on views on what are the underlying mechanisms that make these metabolic therapies and specifically ketogenic therapy so healing that it can actually put severe mental illness into remission.

And so because I'm most familiar with the brain energy model from reading the book and from being a part of Dr. Christopher Palmer's volunteer team, I like to think of it in terms of mitochondria as the key driver. And different clinicians have different views on the underlying mechanisms. But when it comes to mitochondria, I think that the most simple metaphor that Dr. Palmer uses that everybody can kind of relate to is that if you think about metabolism like transatlanticry, There's a lot of different factors that impact traffic. There's weather, there's road construction. But mitochondria, we can think of as the drivers in the cars. And when you have someone who's experiencing mitochondrial dysfunction, you can imagine it's almost like there's a bunch of wild, reckless, drunk drivers out on the road, getting into car crashes. Obviously, that's stopping all of the traffic and all of the flow.

So when you have mitochondrial dysfunction, when you undergo metabolic therapies, ketogenic therapy, as a fasting mimicking diet, what happens is this process called mitophagy, which is cleaning up your mitochondria. So it's literally like going in and taking out those crazy, reckless drivers. At the same time, you get mitochondrial biogenesis, which is literally your body creating fresh, new functional mitochondria. So you're replacing those drivers and all of a sudden the traffic starts to flow again. So I think, though there was definitely an immediate benefit for me when my brain switched fuel

sources from glucose to ketones, and that is clearly a powerful mechanism as well, I think I've seen a really gradual, incremental improvement of my state over time that even continues to this day. To me, that's kind of evidence of perhaps a more long-term process of healing of the mitochondria, which is why you do the ketogenic diet for an extended period of time. You know, the fasting I was doing before was healing. Obviously, you cannot fast indefinitely, but you can do the ketogenic diet on an ongoing basis. So to go back to that analogy, and I love that analogy, Chris has shared it before, Dr. Palmer, I shared it before on this podcast. what is your understanding in the way that you see it?

Again, you're not a clinician, right? Just you're talking about your lived experience, this end of one story, but there's more and more people that are like you that are out there that are sharing their stories. And with the big hope to get, you know, a lot of clinicians listen to this podcast, a lot of researchers listen to this podcast. And a lot of people who have resources listen to this podcast. And they're thinking, how do we spread the word, fund the studies?

And we need more stories and we need more people being in. able to be willing to put out their stories like you to create that awareness. So thank you again for doing that. But in the way that you see it, what caused the reckless drivers or the quote unquote drunk drivers in the first place, right? If somebody's looking at your life and saying, okay, I get it. So you went on a ketogenic diet, right? Clean keto, just so everybody understands, right? clean keto, which is really focusing on not eating processed and ultra-processed foods, which I'm sure try to do a ketogenic diet that way. It would be very difficult, but a clean ketogenic diet and allowing conditions for mitochondrial repair to end up happening and stopping

the thing that was creating the damage in the first place. So what were the things that you understand in your life that might have been contributing to the circumstances that were causing mitochondrial dysfunction in the first place? I think that's also a very complex question. A lot of people are wondering about things like pollution, microplastics. There's a lot of stress being put on everyone in today's day and age that, as we know, there's an epidemic of metabolic dysfunction, including neuromatabolic dysfunction that diet and lifestyle contribute to, but there's also factors like pollution. In my particular case, I think, something that played a role in my becoming sick was actually the amount of stress that I was under

at the time. And you do see it's pretty common for people to develop severe mental illness. You know, when they're away at college, all of a sudden things change and are more stressful for them. I think because I had started this nonprofit organization and gotten a big scholarship and was quite young doing a lot of public speaking, I felt a lot of pressure to make sure that was successful. At the same time, you know, traveling back and forth for India for that work, I was pretty obsessed with global poverty and inequity, you'll find a lot of the times people who develop severe mental illness are actually very sensitive, kind of creative, thoughtful people. There's a lot of realities in today's world that you understand why people can lose their

minds a bit when they're really sensitive and thinking a lot about some of the inequities and problems in today's society. So I think those were all factors. And my, because coming out. Knowing how much of a difference the dietary piece made as one of the metabolic therapies, because you're also, just so everybody's clear, you're saying like daily journaling and gratitude and, you know, exercise. You know, again, these are all different levers that we can pull when it comes to metabolic therapies. But there's a reason that diet gets a lot of the attention. And it sounds like you were doing a lot of those things and you were reducing stress. Even though stress was a big part, do you think at all that your diet previously was a factor in what was

contributing to some of the mitochondrial dysfunction? Yeah, it's a good question. And I always make sure to emphasize to people when they hear about this treatment, a lot of people see it at the surface and think this is about eating a nutritious diet. And it's really not. It's about a physiological process in yourselves, you know, because I always thought I ate a healthy diet. I ate a very whole foods kind of vegan diet before I got sick, but it was higher in carbs,

you know, with things like a lot of fruit, a lot of chickpeas, a lot of lentils. It's really not possible for me to say that it was that diet that caused my mitochondrial dysfunction or like I said, all these other factors, stress, pollution, microplastic. It could be any number of things. I do know that that complex process of ketogenic therapy for me that, is a cornerstone intervention. Because like you said, there's a lot of complementary things that I do that help me have a more positive state of mind and have been healing for me, the meditation, the journaling,

gratitude practice, having a positive outlook on life. But without ketogenic therapy is that cornerstone, physiological treatment for my biological illness, I would not be able to stay stable. That's a great way that you phrased it. explain it because we don't want people to think in regards to your story if they were using this as inspiration to have a conversation with their clinician or hopefully pick up a copy of brain energy and give it to their doctor, give it to their family. If you're a caretaker for somebody, I have so many friends, family members who are the caretaker for somebody in their life that's

going through an extreme situation or case of mental health issues and they're looking for any kind of hope or exploration that might be there. And this might be one of the things to consider We're not saying this is going to work for everybody. We're talking about your story. But as part of your story, I love how you really don't want people to go to any one extreme. You don't want to go to one extreme, which is, oh, I'm just going to eat ketogenic and everything is going to go away because this is a lifestyle piece that was there. You were minimizing toxins.

You're improving and your environment and minimizing air pollution and other things that, whatever you can do for your environment. The mindset piece was a big part of it that was there. And as you mentioned, the ketogenic diet was a cornerstone. And on the other extreme, you don't want people to think like, oh, diet doesn't matter at all, right? You want people to understand this is a sort of a lifestyle approach, at least in the way that I'm understanding. Can I share one metaphor with you? And again, this is saying this is not me as a scientist.

Though I'd be interested to see how scientists feel about this. One thing I like to be sensitive of when I share my story is that people with severe mental illness, just like people in general, they all have different life experiences, different viewpoints on things. So I try to be really sensitive in the way that I share my story and respecting the feedback that I get. So one of the critical things I've heard from other people with lived experience is that when I say, for me, it felt very liberating to discover that this illness has a biological, physiological base that I could heal through metabolic therapies, that I never had an inherent problem

as an individual. There was nothing wrong with me, nothing wrong with my personality. It was a physiological problem that I was able to correct. This was liberating for me, but I've heard other people say, you know, this really completely writes off my experience of lifelong trauma that has caused me to become mentally ill. And so I really had to reflect on that because I think there's a very deep entanglement of trauma and illness. I'm fortunate in that I had a pretty happy childhood.

Everything was pretty good in my life leading up to my psychosis. That being said, I still feel like I can empathize with someone. who's been through more severe trauma because like anybody who's been through a forced hospitalization followed by deep suicidal thinking, followed by a diminished quality of life, you know, that comes with its whole own level of trauma that I had to work through once I was able to correct the physiological problem. So I kind of like to think of it like a computer in terms of hardware and software. So the hardware is like the neuromatabolic dysfunction. So if you have hardware that's not operating and you try to run the latest, most cutting edge software, it's still not going to

work, right? But if you're able to correct the hardware problem, a lot of the times you're still going to want to update your software. So to me, the software is that narrative that we tell ourselves, our lives stories, the way that we frame things. And I've talked to other people, a friend of mine, Mia Mendez, who has bipolar 2 disorder and is also in remission from ketogenic therapies. She shares her beautiful story on bipolar cast where she tells about her kind of complex lifelong trauma that she experienced. And once she tried ketogenic therapy, it made her really functional for the first time in her life. It fixed that hardware problem. It fixed her neurometabolic brain dysfunction. But it was after that that she then had the ability to do the

talk therapy, to go deeper in terms of how to fix her life. narrative, how to unpack that lifetime of complex trauma. So like you said, this diet, it's not a silver bullet, and you still have so many things that you have to deal with in terms of reframing your life once you've corrected that neuromatabolic dysfunction. Yeah, it's not a silver bullet, and it is a cornerstone. I like that word that you used earlier, because in one way we don't want to overplay it, but in another way, we don't want to underplay it because there are a lot of resources for talk therapy. There are a lot of resources for the incredible prescription drugs that are literally the things that help people stabilize and not go through a deeper psychosis that could

lead to suicide or put them in danger or their family in danger. So, you know, there's a lot of great medications, and I hope they continue to improve and they find better medications that don't have all the side effects. And the metabolic therapy that includes diet that Chris Palmer talks about and brain energy that he's recommended to patients that he himself did, not for mental health necessarily, even though he was dealing with a little bit of depression. It was more to just see if his health would improve. He noticed his brain health improved and his depression went away as well too. The diet piece, again, I go back to the same thing is that we don't want to overplay it, but we don't want to underplay it, right? We want to give it its appropriate attention.

and for me from the outside, as somebody who's not gone through this, but having family members who've gone to as close friends of mine, who you know is one way and all of a sudden you don't know, I wish this was a tool that was talked about more as a possibility and more people looked at it, which is exactly why you're here and you're sharing your story. So let's get into some of the details. You know, when I told a few people that we were going to be doing this episode,

I had so many questions that people had about some of the details who were there. So I believe it was in 2021 that you discovered Chris's book. Yes. I discovered Chris Palmer's work in the summer of 2021. So it was before brain energy was even released. But I discovered the concept of ketogenic therapy and started it at that time. Take us from there. When was the first time that you were like, okay, I'm going to do this.

I'm going to implement it because it sounds like it connected a few of the dots. You were already, you had a bunch of dots. You had a bunch of dots that you were connecting on your own, but the concept kind of was connected for you. And then you made a decision of, okay, I'm going to implement this. So what did you implement? So as I had mentioned, I had done a lot of extended kind of therapeutic water fasting. And it was actually to the extent where I felt so good in ketosis when I was water fasting that I almost got addicted to it.

I was doing like three-day fast here, six-day fast there. And my friends were starting to be like, why are you always wanting to fast? So when I understood this idea that metabolic therapies and ketogenic therapy as a fasting-mimicking diet could be healing for my illness, it made perfect sense. It finally explained why I had intuitively felt that fasting was so good for me and why I was constantly wanting to do it over and over. So because it clicked with me right away, it was really easy for me to decide to implement it. And then not only that, but I actually had already established quite a bit of willpower because of all the fasting that I had done. Nothing's tough. Yeah.

Especially you're talking about a three-day fast, a 40-day fast. Like, that's tough for people to do. Yeah. So for me, ketogenic therapies, you know, piece of cake, I kind of feel like even now, if I need a little boost in willpower, there's nothing like an extended fast to give you that. Because if you can kind of beat that primal urge to eat, you feel like you're on top of the world and you can do anything, you know? So as a vegetarian keto, people would think that's so restrictive and so difficult. But when I had the experience of fasting, it didn't seem too bad. And luckily, of course, I also had metabolic flexibility because of that.

So it was very easy for me to get into ketosis. And once I figured out, for me, it was pretty easy just to figure out staying away from certain foods. And that was, it was easy for me to maintain a good level of ketones. even just by staying away from certain foods. And I was never very strict about trying to carb count or anything like that because that didn't really feel sustainable for me. I just got a keto mojo meter, did a bit of intermittent fasting, stayed away from foods that I knew were off limits.

And it was pretty easy to keep my ketones at around the 1.5 level. So let's break some of that down because some people are listening to it and they're like, okay, I think I know what keto is, but I'm not sure. She's talking about ketosis. So let's explain a few of those components. So one of the core ideas in brain energy is this idea that, first of all, we have to be metabolically flexible to even start to recoup some of the benefits of this. So just explain in your understanding or how you would explain it to another layperson, what is metabolic

flexibility? Sure. So typically people in our culture, you know, eating a lot of carbs, our bodies fueled through glucose and blood sugar. And that's what we burn for energy. And when you completely restrict your carbohydrates, your body switches to fat as the fuel source, both your own fat stores, you know, which I had plenty of to use, so I was happy with that, but also dietary fat. So when you eat a ketogenic diet, you're restricting those carbs, eating a higher fat diet. As a vegetarian, I'll be honest that when I looked at, you know, wanting to keep my carbs around 20 grams, it really didn't seem possible when I was counting carbs. But when I just got a keto mojo meter and tested my ketone levels, I could find that I could

eat plenty of vegetables and feel satiated, didn't feel like I was over-restricting, and I could still stay in a higher level of ketosis, which meant that I knew that my body was producing and running off of ketones. Yeah, really what a lot of people who are trying to explore ketogenic or carb restriction, it's not the carbs in vegetables that they're worried about. It's really the refined carbs or the starchy carbohydrates in vegetables. That would be putting them over the edge. But it's basically like you can eat as much broccoli or, you know, kale or lettuces

or whatever types of vegetables as long as they're primarily non-starchy. Was that primarily how you were eating? That was definitely the case for me that I could really eat a ton of those types of vegetables and it wouldn't interfere with my being in ketosis. And I didn't ever have to, like, measure out how many vegetables I was meeting or eating or try to restrict that. Now, you were vegetarian prior to all this. Yes. And it was important to you to still be vegetarian during this, practicing and implementing these metabolic therapies. What were some of the fat sources? Because being on keto is so important to have clean

fat sources that you can rely on. Give us some example of some of the fat sources that were a staple for you. I eat a lot of olive oil and coconut oil are probably my main fat sources. So it is kind of a mental switch when you realize that it's great to fry everything. But I also did decide to incorporate eggs from local family farms. So that's been kind of a great staple in my diet as well to make sure that I'm getting all my nutrients. What about avocado oil? I actually just started using avocado oil. So do you have a favorite fat source for vegetarian? Well, I was an investor in. primal kitchen and I love their stuff. Mark Sisson, he's a great guy. And they have a great avocado

oil. And I'm just a huge fan of avocados. Yes, I do eat a lot of avocados as well. You didn't listen in your list. I was like, come on. I do eat avocados. Yes. So those were staples that were there. So walk us through like what were you eating now in a day? Like how are you organizing your day? And then I want to talk a little bit about ketosis. And you know, I know what a keto Mojo is, but a lot of people listening today don't know. And today's interview is really about the details, right? That people want to get a chance to hear. So walk us through a little bit of what you were eating. What would you eat for breakfast, lunch? Would you eat lunch? And then what would you do for dinner? Well, a lot of the times with my intermittent fasting, I would skip breakfast,

not eat till maybe 11 or noon. And I felt good on that. And I felt good on that, plenty of energy. And I eat a ton of vegetables, usually just in a fatty, creamy dressing. You know, I'll make different varieties of dressing with homemade mayo or some tahini dressing, do a lot of different things like that. I don't eat any processed vegetarian meats or anything like that. I do eat minimally processed tofu, so that's something I fry and eat pretty regularly, make myself a lot of eggs. I eat some berries and nuts. So those are kind of the main staples of my diet. When you were eating this way, and it sounds like you eat this way, right? This will become a lifestyle.

I'm sure at the time, because you had gained a lot of weight when you had first started, then you had lost a lot of it, then you gained it back. You kind of went through this whole journey that you write about on your blog that will link to below. When you went on the ketogenic diet, is it correct that you had some weight that you wanted, not wanted to lose, but you had some weight biologically to lose? Is that right? Yeah.

So generally speaking, that, That's also a little easier to skip breakfast if you have some excess weight because your body is going to be tapping into that and it's going to be burning old fuel sources that have sort of the pounds have piled up. So it's going to be able to use that as energy. Absolutely. So in this time period, as you're eating this way, how are you measuring and tell us, what are you doing with a keto mojo meter? Okay. Yeah. So the keto mojo meter allows you to test the level of ketones in your blood. And it's one of the reliable ways to do it if you're going to be ketosis long term compared to some other ways like urine strips or breath, you know, tool that you

would want to use to measure your ketone level. So by checking that, I could see what level I was at and shoot, you know, I had heard a recommendation for a lot of severe mental illness, bipolar and schizophrenia of wanting to be around 1.5 millimeters per liter. So that's what I would aim to usually stay about in that range. And at the time that you decided that I'm going to follow this pathway, were you pretty strict since then? You know, now we're at the end of 2023 recording this conversation. Yeah.

Or did you find that there were weeks that you were very strict and then you kind of fell out of it? I learned pretty early on that it would be a slippery slope for me to try to cheat at all. So for about two years, I was pretty strict about always being in. ketosis. I'm now at a point where I will occasionally eat somewhat I consider healthier, higher carb foods, fruit and stuff like that. I avoid sugar and any wheat products and everything like the plague because, again, I be afraid of that kind of vicious cycle because for a long time I did use comfort food as kind of a way of self-medicating and had an unhealthy relationship with food that I never want to get back to. So I'm still very strict about the type of.

of carbs I will eat. I don't have any mental symptoms if I decide I'm going to eat an apple and peanut butter, which is my most decadent favorite dessert, apple and peanut butter. But I can eat something like that strategically, you know, before I go on a long run. That being said, I enjoy the way I feel in ketosis still so much that I don't really feel a need to change my diet. Yeah. And just for everybody who's listening, you know, we're not saying fruit is unhealthy, right?

You're not saying that carbohydrates as part of a healthy diet is unhealthy. We're talking about specifically a metabolic therapy diet that needed to happen to, based on the theory of brain energy, create mitochondrial repair. And in that time period, there was a level of, quote, unquote, strictness that had to be followed that allowed the healing to take place, your body's own natural ability to heal itself. At least that's the theory, right? Again, more of this has to be backed up. And I'm very excited because Dr. Chris Palmer and other institutions, I believe at Harvard,

last time he said at McLean Hospital where he's based, I think he said that they have three active clinical trials at different levels that they're looking at this. And then there's more clinicians that are putting out case studies. and I'm sure other people have been inspired. So we need more work to flush all this out, right? And, you know, that's why I'm so excited about this new position I have as mental health communications and advocacy manager for Bazuki Group and metabolic Mind. So Bazuki Group is really a driving force right now.

We've been investing. We've funded nine clinical trials for schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, major depression, and anorexia. because without this kind of evidence-based of rigorous science, it's not going to be possible to have clinicians recognize the validity of these treatments and make them first-line options for patients. So it's absolutely essential that we have the science to back up this type of intervention. Absolutely. Could agree more. And I think a big part of that is actually just like the individuals that you work with, which I would love for you to share their story, the Bazuki, founders because it's very interesting. Maybe we can have them on the podcast one day.

I think it would be great. It's so important to create a little bit of a media campaign, which is what we're doing here in this podcast to show, hey, you're an individual that went through this. You are in, according to the way that you talk about it and your doctors, you're in remission. This is what you did. There's a possibility. That doesn't mean it's going to work for everybody, but there's more that needs to be explored there where some people would say this would have never been a possibility. You're just going to have to be on medication for the rest of your life and just learn how to manage this quote unquote disease, right? And I think that's why it's critical that we have bazuki group, but then also metabolic mind, which is the public facing arm

where we're providing resources to patients and families who want to try these interventions today, which is why I'm so grateful to you for having me on the podcast to share my story and share about metabolic therapies because we know it's going to take time to get the science to back up these interventions so that more clinicians are willing to offer them as an option to their patients. But there's countless people out there, literally hundreds of millions of people who are suffering with mental illness today who don't want to sacrifice another year of their life, let alone five years of their life waiting for the science to catch up. So what we really want to be doing is providing resources to patients and families right now

because this is a therapy that provides so much hope for real long-term healing and remission. We'll come back to the metabolic minds and the bazuki group, but just mention the website for everybody who's listening now if they want to check it out. Oh, yeah. So metabolicmind.org is our website. We have a YouTube channel where a lot of people like me share their personal lived experience. And I think that's why it's so incredible to kind of be a part of this movement from the very beginning is it's just an exponential growth and the number of people who are coming forward

and saying that this transformed my life, this form of therapy, gave me my life back in a way that I didn't even know was possible. And I think it's going to be amazing to watch those stories just continue to grow. Well, I want to come back to your story because we're still going to flush out some details. Sure. So as I explain in the disclaimer of the most recent disclaimer, we probably have a few in the podcast, is that we're not saying that fruit is bad, that carbs are bad, that other things, but you had to be in nutritional ketosis to allow these things to happen. Now, I mentioned to you, I said, did you ever waver? And you said, you learned very quickly that if you wavered,

that it wouldn't be good for you. Did you waver early? And did you notice a shift in how your mood or your symptoms would show up? Such a good question. And I think it's really interesting because the science is so new that I've heard different things from people with lived experience. Some people do have those mental symptoms right away

if they waver from their diet. And some people, even after doing ketogenic therapy for five, six, seven years, cannot go off of the diet without having symptoms. Whereas like I said, today, if I wanted to eat an apple or have some higher carb food

and get out of ketosis, I wouldn't have any immediate ramifications from doing that. So I think it varies a lot from individual to individual. I cheated on my diet very seldom in the beginning. I don't particularly remember. I didn't have any severe kind of mental health issues when I would waver from it. But I also just felt so especially wonderful, I think, in ketosis, that that was a real motivator for me. And again, continuing, I saw it as a serious medical intervention, understanding the science of mitophagy, mitochondrial biogenesis, and also some of the other things I didn't

mention, like how it lowers inflammation and oxidative stress. I really understood those benefits and always reminded myself that there was a real motivation to adhere to this diet. And that was always a lot stronger than any desire to, you know, eat a cupcake or something like that. And also with your episodes that you had had, because you had up to that point three episodes, you had gone through essentially so much pain during that time period, you were like, I just don't want to go through this again. Is that fair to say? Absolutely. I mean, you can't really imagine anything more motivating than wanting to stay out of that kind of severe situation. You know, if I had been trying to do ketogenic therapy long term because I had some superficial aim of trying to just lose weight

or something like that. I don't think I would have had the motivation to do it. But this was literally kind of a life and death situation for me. And the profound benefits are just so much greater than any sacrifices that I've had to make. You mentioned medications. And of course, if a patient is happy with the medications that they're on and they feel like they're giving them a lot of benefits, I would never try to push an agenda like everybody should follow metabolic therapies. That's something that I've chosen to do. I will say that if somebody offered me a pill that they said was equivalent and could offer me all the benefits that I get from my meditation, my exercise, my ketogenic therapy, just take this pill, you'll get all of those benefits. I wouldn't because

I found that this has helped me to cultivate such a growth mindset and to develop my willpower to such an extent that I actually feel at this point my life is better than baseline. It's better than it was prior to my diagnosis because I feel like this is a path that's empowered me and will give me a great journey on the rest of my life. Yeah, the other thing about medications that's not talked about enough is that when I was sharing earlier that, you know, we're thankful for the medications that are there. You know, my dad, he was the CFO of a psychiatric hospital. And I saw all the ins and outs that were there from a young age, even in high school. I would volunteer time to help them with their computers or other stuff. And, you know, your dad

and take you to work and you'd spend time. And they had both inpatient and outpatient, and they really focused on a lot of adolescents that they dealt with. And the medications that are available today, in my experience, and Chris talked about this a little bit when he was on the podcast, Dr. Palmer, they're great for stabilizing when there is a situation, right, and sort of allowing us to, you know, prevent things maybe from getting completely out of control. where suicide now is an option or violence or other stuff. But where the medications, and again, Chris mentioned this himself, where there's actually not as much research on these medications himself

at almost all level of mental health interventions is the long-term usage and that there's even concern that the long-term usage of some of these medications actually contribute to mitochondrial damage. Right. So that's where the medication conversation becomes a little bit nuanced, that plenty of even integrative psychiatrists and functional psychiatrists that I personally know, they've all used medications in their toolbox, especially in the early stages of things. But they all realize that ultimately, until you deal with the root cause, which medications

cannot do, at least the types of medications we have now, not only is the patient not going get better, but in some instances, and it seems that it could be possible with these mental health medications that are used, that they could be contributing to mitochondrial poisoning. At least that's my understanding from my conversation with Chris. Yeah. And it's really kind of strange to me that there are clinicians who say that they are not willing to recommend ketogenic therapy because we have not been able to prove its efficacy. What I think is strange about that is that we do know from the research in epilepsy that the ketogenic diet is a safe intervention. So the difference between safety and efficacy. So we have case studies of people coming forward and saying, yes,

this was an effective, comprehensive treatment. So that would be enough that a lot of people like me would at least want to try it, especially if they were struggling on their current medications. But we can at least say whether or not it's effective, we know it to be pretty safe. Compare that, on the other hand, with some of the psychotropic drugs, you know, the olanzapine that I was on, for example, like you said, it was very clearly causing metabolic harm. It made me very quickly obese, and I was moving towards so many multiple comorbidities, and a lot of these medications actually can decrease lifespan. So it's a little ironic to me that a medication is already shown in many ways not to be safe. Yeah, that's still recommended, right? Totally, totally. There's a

There's a lot that's there. And again, you've got to work with your clinician. Now, going back to medication, right? And you're talking about your end of one experience, your lived experience. Once you started the ketogenic diet in conjunction with all the other metabolic therapies you were doing, journaling, you mentioned exercise, your gratitude practice that was there, at what point in time did you start to make modifications to your medication? and were your clinicians involved?

Or did you just decide, again, not that you're recommending it for other people, did you decide on your own to stop the medication? Yeah, I definitely would not recommend anyone just stop their medication. It should always be tapered slowly and carefully with the help of a clinician. I did not do it safely because I went off of my medication all at once before I even discovered ketogenic therapy as an option. And that's when I had that third and final relapse episode. And at that point made the decision that I couldn't deal with going back on the medication

and all the terrible side effects. I started searching for alternatives. And that's how I discovered the work of Dr. Christopher Palmer. So I had been put on medication when I was in the hospital for just a couple weeks before I got out and discovered the brain energy theory. So I was only on medication for a few weeks when I decided to, to go off of it and start ketogenic therapy. So I haven't had, so to be clear, I started ketogenic therapy in the summer of 2021, and I have not been on medication since then, so almost two and a half

years now. Yeah. Well, you know, first of all, congratulations on how far you've come. And secondly, I appreciate the transparency. And I'm sure some people will be leaving comments or writing to me or and even clinicians saying, how dare you talk about or have somebody on that is talking about, they went off of their medication and they're trying these things. Don't you know that people are going to use this? And really, what I would push back and share those individuals, and I'm sure you would feel similarly. In fact, I'll give you an opportunity to chime in, is that listen to the desperation in patients, in the journey that patients are going through, right?

They're so desperate for answers. looking for something different. And so many people, even separate from them discovering, you know, ketogenic interventions or not, you already have a major compliance issue with medications, right? So if that's going to be our only intervention that we have forever, I doubt that we're going to get the world healthy again, right? There's got to be other solutions. So instead of being upset that somebody's sharing their story, how about you listen to what they're talking about? and pay attention to the fact that there could be something there that's worth investigating. And the way that I look at it, right?

Again, just like you, I'm not a clinician. I'm literally just a podcast host. I get to ask questions. I get to have cool people like you on the podcast. I'm looking at it from the outside and I'm like hearing your story. I'm hearing Chris's story again. He didn't have severe mental health illnesses. And I've seen a few other individuals and some stories that you guys have featured on metabolic minds.

I'm seeing that like, what's the downs? even if somebody wanted to start a ketogenic diet while continuing their medication, what's the downside? You lose some weight. You clean out ultra-processed foods. We know ultra-processed foods and a ton of sugar are not good for mental health, right? What's the downside of doing something like this in an informed weight? I don't see a lot of downside.

I see a lot of people who say, well, it hasn't been proven. Where are the studies? If you wait, you know, even once a lot of, something is proven in the scientific literature, on average, it can take 17 years before your regular clinician is implementing it inside of their office, right? That's based on a study. We'll link to it in the show notes below. So so many people are hurting, so many people are in desperate need for answers. So the question that I ask is that, okay, yeah, don't go off your medication, but find a clinician or a team, or maybe like a nutrition,

who can work with you, at least inform your doctor, you're heading in this direction, and try this component. And I have seen individuals online. I haven't met them. I've seen stories where people go on these metabolic therapies and ketogenic diet and they slowly taper off their diet. And each week they check in with their clinician or each couple weeks, they're like, hey, I still feel good and everything's okay. And these clinicians who don't even fully understand are like, look, all right, If anything changes, let me know, but it looks like you're feeling better right now. So who am I to say something? Yeah.

Do you have any thoughts on that? Well, I would just say like any intervention, ketogenic therapy is very powerful. So you do have some risk entailed. So there are cases when people can become a little hypomanic or even manic upon starting a ketogenic therapy, ketogenic diet. So it is good, like you said, to be checking in with clinician and monitoring for certain things. Do you know anybody that that's happened to? Or you just read about it?

I've heard it from Dr. Palmer and others that this can happen to patients. I didn't have anything happen like that, fortunately. But there are some things to watch out for. I wonder if that's just a disclaimer sometimes that people put out there, you know, just to be mindful. I'm sure there is somebody that's out there that went through that. So it's good that you brought it up so that people are aware of it. But like you, I tend to agree for the most part that it seems to be a pretty relatively low-risk intervention. because even with new medications, there's risk of hypomania and mania, other things that you have to look out for.

So overall, I think it's a fairly low risk. And like you said, can be really easily started as adjunctive. And sometimes people incorporate ketogenic therapy, maybe cut down on their meds, but they still feel good on medication. So it's not an either or scenario, like you said. It's something that can kind of help sometimes counter some of the metabolic side effects from the medication as well. A lot of people that reach out to me, especially after Chris came on the podcast, I got so many emails from people who are like, my brother, my sister, my aunt, my granddaughter, my grandson. They were the person that was getting educated on this.

And they were trying to figure out how to best serve and take care of somebody that was in their life that was suffering with some form of psychosis, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, some diagnosed severe mental health issue. What would your advice be to the family members who are like, hey, I want to explore this with the individual that's going through this very challenging mental health diagnosis. But it's like they're barely here. They're barely functioning just to get them to stay on their medications,

just to have them not be on the street. and be homeless. I have a friend of mine that's based in Los Angeles. His son has disappeared and he's on the streets. And obviously every unique, every situation is unique. Before the family members that at least have some connection, some relationship with the individual that's going through the diagnosis, if they're hearing this podcast and saying, I want my son, daughter, you know, husband, wife, brother, sister, whoever it might be, I want them to go through this journey. At the end of the day, many of these people who are going, many of these people who are going through these diagnosis, they're adults. You can't make them do anything, right? So do you have any

thoughts or advice to people that are in that situation? That's a difficult question because I get that as well. You know, now that I'm starting to share my stories, family members coming forward and saying, I really think my daughter should do this, but she's not open to that. And as a patient, I have to say, of course, these metabolic therapies are up to the patient. They have to choose to want to do this. And my goal is not to try to force anyone to do metabolic therapies, but just to eventually make it so that it's a first-line treatment option so that people can choose this if they want to. That being said, you know, family members play a great role for their loved ones in kind of helping them to find hope and to move on. And I think one of the first of the same. And I think one of

of the techniques that Dr. Palmer has mentioned that people can look into is this style of motivational interviewing, which basically can help family members to have really empathetic conversations with their loved ones, to maybe try to steer them towards positive behavior changes, you know, something that could be beneficial for them. But at the end of the day, you cannot make someone do this intervention. When I kind of highlight in my own experience things that I think might inform people. I think the idea is that you have to inform people of the pros and cons of various treatment options, right? And so for me, ketogenic therapy, the difference is is I am no longer managing a chronic illness, but I am in remission. It's a form of treatment

that leads to long-term healing and actually fully restoring your health instead of just kind of a band-aid solution of ongoing management. That's what I see. is the difference. But I also want to say, like you brought up, sometimes it's really the severe treatment resistant cases where people are in a really bad state where ketogenic therapy can actually be more effective in restoring someone's health. So, you know, we talked about, for example, Matt Bazuki, who now I'm involved in the Bazuki group, which is started by David Bazuki, founder of Roblox and his wife, Jan Bazuki, Matt's mom. And Dr. Palmer was Matt. psychiatrist who got him on the ketogenic diet, he had tried countless, you know, 29 different

medications over the course of five years and was still in a really pretty awful state. And within about four months of doing ketogenic therapy, he was remarkably better. And he's now like me, like a, he's a very charismatic, successful guy. He's working. He's in remission, living his life with purpose and doing fully better. And so it's just this remarkable transformation. But the reason I'm pointing that out is not only can ketogenic therapy be a better option for someone like me who feels like they were just kind of living with a diminished quality of life but able to function and work, sometimes it's people who really are not even functional with the current treatments. And I think that's where Dr. Palmer's story is also so moving because people see him as this remarkable scientist, which he is.

But what always moves me so much is his deep compassion. And he was always willing to fight for those people who it seemed like so much of the world. world had forgotten, who just said, this is so sad, but this person is never going to get better. There's no option for them. And I think when Dr. Palmer saw people like this actually being able to move on and become functional again, thanks to ketogenic therapy, that's where it was like, this is a game changer. This is a fundamentally different form of treatment that can restore lives where all other options are sometimes failing. Powerful. As a you've gone through this journey and you've started to put your story out there, what have you seen

have been the biggest misconceptions that you just want to clear up to really help people understand what this is and what this isn't? Anything come to mind? That's a really good question. One of the big misconceptions, you know, I've actually had people when I tell them about my metabolic therapies and how it's a ketogenic intervention and managing my sleep, meditation, exercise, they're like, that's really just common sense. I'm like, well, actually, to me, ketogenic therapy, is not common sense because it's not just about getting to a healthy weight. It's not about nutrition. It's about this cellular process that happens when you get into that fasting, mimicking state

and you have the mitophagy and mitochondrial biogenesis that occurs. If it was so straightforward and so common sense, I would have done it immediately following my first episode, right? So I like to explain to people that this is a lot more complex than it might look on the surface. But again, that's one of the driving forces for why we have to get this information out there. Because, you know, looking back on my life as a 28-year-old, if I would have been told this was an option then, without a doubt, I would have chosen this path over the medications that I ended up taking. And I can imagine that alternate reality, you know, the person I might have been today, if I would have been offered that path so young. There's so much pain and suffering that I could have avoided.

There were so many, you know, there was a long period of just wanting to self-medicate, drinking too much. I started smoking for a while. I had just given up hope. It felt like I had tried to do everything right. I had tried to be healthy and this is where my life ended up. So basically I was like, screw it. I might as well just, you know, I was drinking, smoking, had some toxic relationships, so many

things that I went through that I could have avoided if I would have found that more positive path right then. And I think especially even that powerful message, not that you are broken and disabled and you're going to be like this for the rest of your life, but that there's hope and you can go on to reclaim your health and live a happy, healthy life. That was not a message that I had gotten. That's a great distinction because I think there are people, you know, there's a metabolic approach to mental health. There's also a researcher at Boston College. his name is Thomas Seedfried, and he has a metabolic approach to cancer, a metabolic therapies that he has for the treatment of cancer.

And when people, he's been on this podcast before, well-published individual has done a lot of really prominent studies in that space about glucose and glutamate and its impact on cancer and starving cancer. And when people often hear about these, they're like, okay, so I'm just like eating healthier and then all of a sudden everything's going to work out, I think it's important for people to realize that the vast majority of human beings have actually, in this modern day and age in Western world, America, Europe, et cetera, they probably have not been in ketosis as an adult ever, right?

Like, unless they're doing some sort of fasting, maybe for religious purposes or something like that, most people have not been because of our lifestyle. There's candy on every corner, every aisle, the grocery store, the checkout, how prevalent fast foods are. Not to mention the diet is the cornerstone, but you also talked about minimizing air pollution, right? Indoor the quality of the air inside of the home. And you weren't drinking during this time period. If you're drinking, that's another potential mitochondrial disruption, poison. that's there. And especially when you're in this vulnerable state early on of having so much

mitochondrial damage, smoking is another one. One of the things that I'd shared with Chris online, Dr. Chris Palmer, was that I personally have had multiple young, like multiple friends of mine, young men that are in the classic sort of category of like 18 to 35 where you typically see younger men predisposed to having a schizophrenic episode or a case of psychosis. I've had multiple people in my life who, in particular, were high, were big-time smokers of marijuana. And there is some concern that even the marijuana that exists today, which is a much higher concentration of THC, in some people, not everybody, in some people could be another mitochondrial of this disruption that's there. In fact, Denmark was one of the first countries to look through

their national records, their health electronic records. And they found Denmark's a pretty small country. They found a massive correlation between people who were regular, high frequency users of cannabis. And again, the cannabis has changed so much in the last 20 years. And the correlation, again, correlative with schizophrenia. So this isn't just about diet. You weren't drinking. You weren't smoking. You weren't doing all these things. So this is truly a lifestyle. And when you step into it and you actually get into the details, which is why I'm glad you went into the details in this interview, you realize that really as simple as this looks, this is really night and day compared to how you would have lived previously. Yeah, definitely. And I think it can be challenging for people

trying to start when maybe they need to make multiple changes at once and kind of figuring out the right pace to implement all of these different changes, right? Because what Matt Bazuki and I both shared in common is by the time we found ketogenic therapies, we had already made so many positive changes in terms of giving up drinking, giving up smoking, exercising, meditating. So it was kind of primed and ready for like ketogenic therapy. And I understand that it can be complex when someone wants to start this and realizes maybe they need to take it step by step because they have to make a lot of lifestyle changes, right? So for somebody who is at those beginning stages, what advice would you have for them? Let's say they're the individual that's listening on audio

or came across us on YouTube, right? What would step one be? I think my recommendation, I think the powerful way to start is with that journaling and framing just by the power of your thought and your visualization about how much better your life can be. I think that's the most powerful way to set someone on the path of healing, just being able to imagine the best possible outcome. And then after that, designing it backwards, step by step with where you want to start. And everybody's different. Some people are all or nothing people who could really just kind of step into like I'm going to try to make these structured changes all at once. And some people need to take it gently. And maybe they'll say, well, in the first couple months, I just want to focus

on cutting out drinking. And then, you know, after that, I'm going to incorporate some exercise. And after that, I'm going to try changing my diet. You know, so I think people have to find what's comfortable for them. But like I mentioned, when I look back on that journal, it's a powerful testament for me of how much we can really cheer ourselves on and create a positive path through visualizing a better future and just kind of, I can't tell you how many times I laid out my goals and failed and came back to the journal and wrote, well, you know what, I drink six beers, even though I was going to quit drinking. And, you know, we stumble along the way. But I also said, I want this journal to be a record of why I succeeded and not how I gave up, you know. So I think

starting where you're at and just being able to encourage yourself and start on a positive journey. Yeah. One question I have for you is that in talking to a lot of families who are struggling in supporting somebody in their world who's suffering with, let's say, bipolar or some sort of other mental health diagnosis, most of them, even if they pick up a copy of brain energy. Now, whether or not they read it, that's a different thing. It's easy to buy a book and have it set on the counter, but reading it or at least listen to his podcast, right? Or the audio book. You know, the audiobook.

He's done some great ones with Dr. Andrew Huberman. We'll have the link with you. With me. Of course. As well, my friend Dr. Rungan Chatterjee, there's plenty of content that Dr. Chris Palmer has out there. What I was going to ask you is that the feeling that a lot of them have is that I at least want to know because I at least want to know that I'm not crazy. And maybe that's the wrong word to use in this approach. I at least want to know that I'm not crazy and wanting to venture down this path.

if have you seen any sort of underground list of clinicians, nutritionists, people that are out there that do some sort of coaching or consulting to help people walk through the basics? Does metabolic mind as an organization recommend any group that's out there? Like I've found a couple nutritionists, for example, on who they themselves have gone through. balance of mental health challenges, diagnoses. Is there any sort of underground list that you've seen out there? Or if somebody was trying to find a practitioner who at least would entertain them and not make them feel like they were crazy for going down this pathway to add it, even as an adjunct therapy in addition to the medications that they or their family member were taking,

any recommendations of how somebody might find that person? Right now when people ask, I say Twitter. I say go on Twitter and just search. There's a great growing community, as you know, on Twitter of people implementing, sharing their stories with metabolic therapies. So that is a good resource. Metabolic mind does link to a number of dietitians and also the website of Harvard-trained psychiatrist Dr. Georgia Ead.

She has a list that is self-monitored where clinicians go and share their own information if they say that they're practicing or at least open to practicing metabolic psychiatry. I should also mention that she's another one of the pioneers in this field. Like I said, a lot of the researchers and scientists have kind of different ideas of the underlying mechanisms, their own point of view. Her book, Change Your Diet, Change Your Mind is coming out in January. So that will be a good resource for people to explore as well. Oh, wonderful.

Yeah. So that's another resource. And I think for people out there who are looking for inspiration, just to read a wide variety of the different views out there and find kind of what resonates with you and what works for you and your own path. But her website is a good resource when you're searching for who might be a metabolic practitioner. And like I said, because this is such a growing movement,

I'm hopeful that it won't be long before we have so many more clinicians who are trained in metabolic therapies. But in the meantime, even working with your own care team and pointing them to the science, pointing them to the resources, some of the videos that we have through metabolic mind can also help clinicians understand what this therapy entails kind of labs that you can get done to make sure that you're monitoring the right things. So I think unfortunately it's a hard situation to have to work with limited resources, but

you know, people are going to do everything that they can to try to improve their situation. And while everybody's different, I have absolutely, of course, no regrets about choosing this path, even though I couldn't find the ideal support. Now that you have your life back, tell us what you want to be up to. Yeah. So now that I have my life back, you know, it's interesting because I'm literally at that point where I could go on and forget that I ever had bipolar disorder. I feel like the world has opened that my future is bright. I can pursue dreams that I thought would never be possible. But at this point, I have decided that, you know, until these metabolic therapies become mainstream

and people know that this is an option, I really want to devote my career to help raise awareness and make these treatments accessible. They should be covered by insurance. You should be able to easily find somebody who's trained in metabolic psychiatry to help with this option. So what drives me now to stay in this field is just thinking about how many people are suffering. And there's one story I want to share, and I'm going to try to not get emotional. But, you know, the positive stories like mine, you know, as I said,

at almost two and a half years with no medication. And this is someone, history is shown, within a year I would have full-blown mania if I didn't have this ketogenic therapy as an intervention. That is what is keeping me stable. That is what has made it so that I no longer need these medications with all of these terrible side effects, has restored my quality of life, and just made things better than I ever possibly thought they could have been. But sometimes I have to think about those stories that you don't want to share, the hard ones. And I'm sharing with permission from the family. As being a volunteer for Dr. Christopher Palmer in the brain energy movement, we got this really heartbreaking email from a woman named Julie King, and she's incredibly strong, resilient

woman. She really believes in the brain energy theory and that it's going to change lives for millions of people, but it was too late for her son. Her son, his name is Andrew King, and she wrote us an email at Brain Energy that he had died by suicide this summer, and he was sounded like an incredible young man. He got almost a perfect score in his SATs, was very dedicated to giving back and serving others,

did a lot of volunteer work for Habitat for Humanity, just a bright, wonderful young man, but he had schizoaffective disorder. And she wanted to get him on this path with metabolic therapies. I won't get into all the details of what kind of went wrong with his medication management and why it ended this way for Andrew. But his mom, she's not bitter. She's not angry. She just wants to help spread the word.

And she said, you know, what would have made all the difference for my son? If he would have been told at the beginning when he had his first episode, that there is hope for you. This is an illness that can be managed and put into remission. Instead, he was told this is a life sentence, and you're disabled, and your life is never going to be the way that you thought it would be. But now, I think, you know, reading that email,

and it was hard for me, it was actually right before we went to celebrate the August birthdays in our family, which includes my birthday. And here I was, you know, so grateful to have my life back. And yet I had to excuse myself a few times just started crying, thinking, why me? Why am I able to go on and be happy and live my life in remission? He was so close. He could have been on that path. He could be in remission right now.

And it wasn't just this devastating loss for his family. We think about sometimes there's a numbing scope of mental illness. You know, we think of one in five people. We look at statistics about how prevalent suicide is, and you can get numb to that. But you think of that one person. This young man was invaluable to his family. And not only that, but he had so much to offer the world as well. And sometimes I think it's important that we respect the urgency of this escalating mental health crisis.

And we say it's not enough to sit back and wait for the science. It looks like there are more comprehensive, effective strategies available today, and people deserve hope. They deserve a chance. That's well said. And really the work that you do every day and just even you coming on this podcast today and us getting a chance to become friendly and become friends a little bit and hearing about your story, it's really in the legacy of all these incredible individuals like Andrew who had that bright shining star inside of them. I've had some of those individuals in my life as well too, some that also have fallen to suicide

and to not have the right support system. And I'm just not even knowing Andrew, but hearing his story. I'm even just picturing him in my head. And it's just a reminder about how important this work is and why I'm so thankful that you're coming on the podcast to share your story. So thank you for sharing a little bit about Andrew. Thank you. It's when I think about Andrew and all those people who need help right now and that this can be a pivotal thing for them and think about how they can get their lives back and all that they might contribute to society.

That's why, you know, where I feel very fortunate to have put my past behind me, I mean, I really feel no longer any shame or baggage associated with my illness. I feel that I'm healthy and I can pursue kind of the life. that I always wanted to live. But I feel like at this point, it would be selfish of me to forget the gravity, the weight, the seriousness of the illness that I went through until we make sure that people see this cutting-edge science and know that there are better options out there. Well said. Hannah, this has been great.

I really want to thank you for coming on the podcast and sharing your story. I think I read somewhere that maybe one day it'll turn into a book. You got a lot of work on your hands, but if you ever needed anybody to be your number one cheerleader, count me in. I have a lot of really great relationships with publishers that are out there. But I'm sure in the meantime, just as you've joined the organization, metabolic mind, and you and your colleagues have a lot of work to do of spreading the message. And I know that you took out time out of your day to be able to share your story here. And I just want to say thank you.

I acknowledge you. Where can people go to stay in touch with you? And do we get to hear the background of why you named your website, radiantbeast.com? Okay. So when it comes to the book that I'm working on, the working title is Radiant Beast, the mitochondrial pathway. And it is a metaphorical name, as you can imagine. And while I won't get into the whole story, basically Radiant Beast was the name of a poem

that I wrote the first time I was hospitalized. And it played off this feeling that I had when I was delusional. Kind of I mentioned feeling like I could fly away. And it's funny in the psychiatric ward, they kept calling me a flight risk. And, you know, they meant she could run away. And I thought they wouldn't let me outside because I could literally fly, which is. You know, what is what I felt like, this kind of beastly feeling. But that's why my website is Radiant Beast, and that's the name of the book that I am slowly

working on to me. It's much more critical to publish articles and get them out to the people who need them right now as a resource. And all of my articles are going to be on the blog at metabolic mind.org. And that's a fantastic resource for anyone who wants to learn more, whether it's a clinician or a patient or family member. And you're also pretty active on Twitter as well? Yes, yep.

I'm active on Twitter as well. And we'll put the link to your Twitter and the show notes below. Yeah, it's Radiant Beast. Radiant Beast. Hannah, thank you so much for coming on here. I know before we recorded, you were saying you were a little nervous. You did great. Thank you.

You're such an incredible storyteller. Your heartfelt connection to this mission is not just, just evident in your story, but just it's fully in your body and it radiance out through the entire podcast. And I hope that anybody listening really listens to your recommendations. They check out the work of Dr. Chris Palmer. They check out metabolic mind and the incredible resources that are there. And they start to see that there's hope for them or their family and that it's not a lifelong diagnosis that they can't do anything about. So thank you for leaving our audience with that message. Thank you so much for having me and for providing this wonderful platform to help spread

the word and raise awareness. It's so appreciated. Hi everyone, Drew here. Two quick things. Number one, thank you so much for listening to this podcast. If you haven't already, subscribe, just hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast app. And by the way, if you love this episode, it would mean the world to me. And it's the number one thing that you can do to support this podcast is share it with a friend, share with a friend who would benefit from listening. Number two, Two, before I go, I just had to tell you about something that I've been working on that I'm super excited about. It's my weekly newsletter, and it's called Try This.

Every Friday, yes, every Friday, 52 weeks a year, I send out an easy-to-digest protocol of simple steps that you or anyone you love can follow to optimize your own health. We cover everything from nutrition to mindset, to metabolic health, sleep, community, longevity, and so much more. If you want to get on this email list, which is, by the way, free and get my weekly step-by-step protocols for whole body health and optimization, click the link in the show notes that's called Try This or just go to Drew Perot.com. That's D-H-R-U-P-U-R-H-I-T dot com and click on the tab that says, try this.