Dhru Purohit Show - The Top Foods That Leave Us Feeling Hungry and Cause Us to Overeat with Dr. Andreas Eenfeldt

Episode Date: August 3, 2023

This episode is brought to you by WHOOP and LMNT.  Today on The Dhru Purohit Podcast, Dhru sits down with Dr. Andreas Eenfeldt to discuss his revolutionary satiety-per-calorie approach to combating the obesity and metabolic health crisis. In this episode, Dr. Eenfeldt shares how ultra-processed food fuels overconsumption and why curating our diets around whole foods rich in protein and fiber is key to preventing overeating. Dr. Andreas Eenfeldt, popularly known as Dr. E, is a Swedish medical doctor specializing in family medicine and treating patients with low-carb, high-fat diets. During that time he witnessed amazing success for people with obesity and type 2 diabetes.  Dr. E is the founder and CEO of one of the world's fastest-growing low-carb and keto websites, Diet Doctor, with over 350,000 daily visits. He is also the author of the number one bestseller in nutrition, Low Carb, High Fat Food Revolution, which has been translated into eight languages, including English. In this episode, Dhru and Dr. E dive into (audio version / Apple Subscriber version): -Examples of some of the least satiating foods (2:19 / 2:18)   -The definition of satiety and why so many people struggle with it (4:30 / 4:36)  -Examples of some of the most satiating foods (11:15 / 8:16)  -Dr. E’s journey from low-carb to satiety-focused (17:30 / 14:28)  -Why veganism doesn’t work for some people (24:53 / 21:55)  -Healthy snack foods with low satiety and a high hedonic factor (30:37 / 27:40)  -How the satiety approach can help support metabolic health (36:00 / 33:03)  -The link between our industrialized food environment and chronic disease (39:35 / 36:30)  -Pushback surrounding the satiety-per-calorie approach (44:01 / 41:05)  -How Dr. E and his team designed the satiety index score (52:29 /  49:30) -Why the total quantity and quality of food matters (59:05 / 55:11)  -Examples of a high- and low-satiety breakfast (1:03:56 / 1:01:13)  -Protein recommendations per meal to promote satiety (1:07:07 / 1:04:39)  -How to begin prioritizing satiety in your diet (1:06:18 (1:11:10 / 1:08:15)    Also mentioned in this episode: -hava.co -Dietdoctor.com -Satiety for beginners Tweet -Satiety and hedonic factors Tweet For more on Dr. E, follow him on Twitter @DrEenfeldt and Instagram @joinhava WHOOP is a personalized digital fitness tracker and health coaching platform that monitors your physiology 24/7 and provides personalized recommendations based on your body’s needs. To get yours, go to join.whoop.com and get your first month free. Right now, LMNT is offering my listeners a free sample pack with any purchase—that’s eight single-serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all eight flavors or share LMNT with a salty friend. Get yours at DrinkLMNT.com/DHRU. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How can we help guide people to live better lives, to improve the potential to live the life you want? Instead of struggling, using all your willpower to try to eat less, what if you could eat foods that you love, as much as you like, as much as little as you like, and then just be happy and content and have all your willpower to achieve whatever is important to you in your life? Welcome to the Drew Proet podcast. Each week we explore the inner workings of the brain and the body with one of the brightest minds and wellness, medicine and mindset. This week's guest is Dr. Andreas Infield, also called and known as Dr. E. And he's here to talk about why satiety could be the missing link in your weight loss journey. And he's going to break down the top foods that encourage you to be full, causing you not to want to eat, and the top culprits, the top foods that keep you hungry and are designed to make you want to eat more. Now, a little bit more about Dr. E. Dr. E is a Swedish-based medical doctor,

who specializes in family medicine. He's also the founder and CEO of the website Diet Doctor and the soon-to-be-released app, HAVA. During the last 10 years, Dr. E has authored the biggest health blog in Sweden and a number one best-selling book on nutrition titled Low-Carb High Fat Food Revolution, advice and recipes to improve your health and reduce your weight. That's been translated to over eight languages, including English.

Dr. E graduated from medical school in the year 2000 at Uppsala University, he spent 12 years working as a doctor and eight of those years as a family physician, treating patients with a low-carb approach focusing on their metabolic health. During that time, he witnessed amazing success stories for people with obesity and type 2 diabetes. Stay tuned for a fantastic episode on satiety with Dr. E and specifically what to eat to stay full and what to avoid that will help you prevent constant hunger. Dr. E, welcome to the podcast. It's a pleasure to have you here. I'd love to jump right in.

You know, your mission is to really make a major dent in the obesity crisis. And a big way that you're doing that is you've developed an algorithm to help people lose weight. We're going to break that algorithm down. But first, give us an idea from that lens of satiety. What are some of the lowest scoring foods, the foods that are so addictive that they keep people eating and they make it harder to lose weight on their weight loss journey? Sure. Thank you, Drew. Great to be here. I'd be happy to do that. I think the main concept is that some foods make you want to eat more and some foods make you want to eat less. So just counting calories doesn't really cut it. You need to sort of eat the right foods and then it becomes easy. So when we talk about the lowest satiety foods, those foods are the ones that make you want to eat as much as possible. And basically this is the goal of the food.

industry the processed food industry right because that's where the profit is the more they make you eat the more you come back and buy their their foods so generally speaking we're talking about ultra processed foods that have some sort of addictive combination of let's say sugar and fat donuts for example might score a one out of 100 you can also think of chocolate bars a a Mars bar, for example, be at the very, very, very bottom. Potato chips might score slightly higher, maybe three, four, five on our score up to 100. And basically anything you can think of when you have had a big dinner and you're really full. And you're like, well, what could I eat now?

And when I ask people on Twitter, they said, most of them said the most popular answer was ice cream. And that also scores at the very, very bottom of the satitis scale. So it tends to be those kind of foods, salt, sugar, fat together, mostly sugar and fat. Yeah. And it's not just traditional regular store-bought ice cream. It's also keto ice cream. And we're going to do a whole breakdown into some of the common keto foods that are out there that people might be eating. that actually cause a lot of hunger in keeping people reading.

Let's zoom out for a second. And let's start off with the idea that what is satiety? And why do people have such a hard time deciding what to eat and when they're full? Right. So satiety, the easiest way to think of it is the opposite of hunger. So you're hungry, you want to eat, you think about food all the time, you have all kinds of cravings, you imagine what kind of foods would be good for you. And if you walk by something that looks nice, you're likely to want to pick it up and eat it.

If you have satiety, it's the opposite. You are now content, you're happy, you're not interested in food. And if you walk past something that looks delicious, you might not even notice because your mind is directed at other things. things. If you get bored, if you get sad, if you get angry, irritated, you're not thinking about foods to calm or, you know, make yourself feel better. You might think of talking to a friend, watching some Netflix, whatever it may be that comes to mind, but it's not going to be food that's top of mind for you. But if you are hungry, you know, that's what's going to pop into your mind. So think of satiety as the opposite of hunger.

Now the interesting thing is that you can, of course, get satiety from eating any kind of food. You can eat, if you eat enough ice cream, you will eventually stop being interested in eating more. You're going to be so full that, you know, you don't even want ice cream anymore. But that's a lot of calories until you get there. At least for me, you know, I can eat a lot of ice cream if I get started. So there is a different. from one food to the next in how much satiety do you get per calorie like how much would you eat out of this food until you're full and no longer interested and if you think of a food like

a boring kind of fitness food like chicken breast once you've eaten a certain amount of chicken breasts you're not going to be all that interested in eating more it's actually got quite high satiety per calorie. But if you have a tray of different donuts in front of you, you might eat a lot more. Maybe you would end up eating 1,500 calories of chicken breast in a day. But if you only ate donuts all day, maybe you eat 4,000 calories. I mean, the difference can be pretty massive, actually. This episode is brought to you by Element.

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and give your body what it needs. If you want real-time insights into your health and fitness routine with less burnout and quicker results, you got to try whoop. Head on over to join.wop.com slash drew to get your first month free, first month free on whoop. That's join.wop.w-d-com slash dh-R-U for your first month free of whoop. Yeah, absolutely huge. You know, when I think about your work and as I was starting to learn about it,

and of course, follow you on Twitter, the thing that came to mind to me was a quote that you were saying. You said, calories count, but you don't have to count them. There's a much better way. And to extend that quote, the idea is satiety is that way. And satiety has these different levers. If we understand how to pull the levers in the right sort of combination, not only do we tend to not overeat,

but it doesn't require a lot of willpower to do that. We just feel full, and that puts us in a place of contentment. When we're content, we don't overeat. When we don't overeat, we don't end up gaining weight. So just like we started off in the beginning, and you gave us a list of a few foods that are the lowest ranking, which is a bad thing, chocolate chips, cookies, potato chips. Give us a little bit of a contrast as we're building this sort of foundation for everybody to follow. what would be some examples of higher scoring foods that tend to keep people full, but also provide them with enough energy to continue doing the work that they need to do in the day?

Right. And there you basically end up with unprocessed whole foods of pretty much all kinds. So you can imagine protein rich foods in particular tends to be quite sation. and that could be from animal sources like meat, fish, eggs, etc. But you can also find vegetarian sources of protein such as beans, lentils, tofu, satan, and different kinds of high protein products like that. Vegetables tend to be extremely high satiety per calorie, but of course you're not going to feel full from eating some broccoli.

it's more like a thing you can eat together with something else to ramp up increase the overall the diet of the meal you're probably not going to be full from just eating leafy green vegetables but it's a it's a great combination with it so just to to sort of think of it as a whole concept unprocessed foods tend to be higher higher protein foods higher fiber foods um Foods with lower energy density, meaning it has fewer calories for a specific weight, is usually, again, an attribute that unprocessed foods have, while ultra-processed packaged foods, they are often the moisture is taken out of it, the water is taking out of it, it is sort of concentrated calories. Think of potato chips, for example. It's dry, it's all carbon.

and fat in a concentrated format. That's very energy dense and it has low satiety. The final factor that is a little bit more controversial and there is less research, but it's clearly a major factor still is something we call the hedonic factor. Some people talk about highly rewarding foods. or hyper-palatable foods. And this is also often an attribute of ultra-processed foods that the food industry really tries to maximize because here is where you can get massive profits.

If you combine sugar and fat together, especially in foods that are low in protein and high in energy density, that sort of really fires up the dopamine, the reward circuits in our brain and we just cannot resist it once we start eating it. Here you have things like, again, chocolate, ice cream, donuts. But there are other factors that also can drive these sort of reward circuits in the brain. And salt is one of those things.

If you combine salt with high fat foods or high carb foods, then that can also become quite hedonic. Think of nuts, for example. If you have plain nuts. There's a whole debate on Twitter about macadamian nuts on your thread and people saying, is it good? Is it not good?

So why is everybody debating macadamian nuts? Tell us about that. Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, if you come at it from a low carb angle, I mean, I'm still a low carb, I would say, but I used to be, I used to believe that low carb was the way for everybody, pretty much. You know, lower carb, always better, kind of.

And now I think it's more complicated. But I'm still very positive to low carb. I think it's a great tool to use a very simple approach that tends to lead people in the right direction. But yeah, nuts is controversial, I think, because if you come at it from a low carb angle, they look really good. They are low carb. macadamia nuts for example super low carb and you think oh well that's that's great done you can eat lots of macademia nuts and lose weight and improve your diabetes and and so forth and yet there is

this controversy around them because i've been in this field for 20 years and for this entire time when i i've heard these all these experts all these experience people saying you know if you struggle to lose weight on low carb cut down on nuts you don't eat so many nuts and also eat blessed dairy. Those are the sort of two things that people have always been saying. And it's like there is no good explanation. Why is that? Because they are low carb.

And yet, if you look at it from a satiety lens, now it makes perfect sense because nuts actually are among the lowest satiety foods of all low carb foods, of all common low carb foods they are among the lowest. Why? Well, because they are very high fat. and they're low in protein, low in nutrition, and they're very highly energy dense. And again, if you come back to what I came into this through, this hedonic factor, if you also put salt on them, you make roasted salt and nuts.

Now they get quite difficult to stop eating because there is this effect that happens in the human brain when you combine something that is high salt and high fat together, it becomes very rewarding. We really like it. And we tend to eat more than we may need. So, yeah, there's been a lot of debate online. Not, are they good or bad for weight loss? I would say not good. You know, tell us a little bit about your evolution.

You talked about being low carb. And that was sort of a little bit of, I believe you read a book by Gary Taubes that kind of got you started on this journey. good calories, bad calories, or I forget the exact name of it. And over a period of time, you founded this hit website. You wrote a book. The website is the Diet Doctor website. What got you to start shifting your point of view?

And what are some core areas that you sort of changed your mind on when it came to food? You mentioned you still practice a low-card approach in your life. But what sort of fundamental things did you start? giving more weight to as the evidence around you started to change. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I've been doing this for 20 years now, but I came at it from a sort of low glycemic index diet kind of thing. And then I got more and more into low carb. And you mentioned this book by Gary Tubbs, which was quite influential for a lot of people. I thought it was pretty amazing. And I think it still is, but I no longer agree with everything in it. I think that the fundamental idea that

that Gary Tubbs and other people in the low carb, researchers in the low carb area have been traditionally focused on is that carbohydrates, they break down to sugar in the blood. You take it up as sugar into the blood, and that leads to the release of the hormone insulin to take care of this sugar, and insulin is also fat-storing hormone. So that means that eating carbohydrates raises your blood sugar

and raises this fat-storing hormone, and therefore you store fat, and therefore you gain weight and then the solution is to eat fewer carbohydrates and that's that. And it seems to be supported by the fact that there are dozens of high quality studies testing low carbohydrate diets that actually show that it does work for people. And of course we know this from our experience. There are lots of people online and offline and anywhere who have been trying various low carb approaches probably for 150 years.

it's been often on popular clearly it works right but the the real interesting question to me is why why does it work because the the thing that has made me sort of update my view on this is primarily that there are also a number of black swans there are a number of examples where the low carb theory does not explain reality and in the last five years or so there's also been a number of well done studies that is that are very hard to explain using a low carb sort of insulin focused lens so it seems that it's actually more complicated than that low carb yes it works we know that but we don't know quite why yet it does not seem to be all about the insulin that's for sure and and talking about these black swans. I mean, one that comes up quite a bit is, well, what about traditional people

in Asian countries in China and other Asian countries living primarily on rice, a very carb-focused eating pattern, and yet they traditionally didn't have obesity, didn't have metabolic disease. there are a lot of people that also never really had access to modern foods like the Qatawans, the Hads of people, lots and lots of indigenous. People living in traditional lifestyles, usually eating like 50% or more of their energy from carbohydrates. And yet virtually nobody had obesity, nobody had high blood pressure. they were super healthy from a metabolic perspective. Of course, they might get infections or accidents and die early from other reasons,

but they didn't get our Western chronic diseases that we get. And yet they were eating carbohydrates. And then added to that, then a number of studies from the last few years that are very hard to explain. For example, there is one called Diet Fits, one of the biggest studies, studies to test a low carbohydrate diets versus a higher carb diet trying to make the difference

as big as possible 600 people participated and well they both both lost lots of weight they lost equal amounts of weight whether they went low carb or high carb it is very hard to to explain that using insulin. And there are other studies too. I won't bore you with all the examples. But there are, there's a long line of black swans that cannot be explained with insulin.

Yeah, I think it's important to address because, of course, you as a metabolic, as a background in metabolic health and also being a medical doctor, partly what I'm hearing from you is that, gray, okay, we know that low carb is a tool that works for a lot of people. There's some people that also are not low carb

that's still from these studies that you mentioned can maintain a good healthy weight or lose weight. But then on the flip side, there's also many people that are practicing, quote unquote, low carb. But because they're eating primarily foods or even people that, a lot of people that are on this podcast, I get emails all the time. People write in and say,

look, I'm eating a healthy diet. I feel, I'm not eating a diet of donuts. cookies, chips. I'm not eating all these foods on a regular basis. Maybe a birthday cake here or there. But when you look at your algorithm of protein, energy density, fiber, hedonic factors, you see, even for them, even with them eating healthy, a lot of their foods are a little bit out of whack.

They're concentrated almond butters that are a huge base of their diet. They are super energy dense health food processed snacks that are there. They may not potato chips, but they're cassava chips, you know, with avocado oil and sea salt, which tastes great, right? And I'm glad that those are available. But when that becomes the base of your diet, that now starts to take you in a different direction, even if you eat really healthy. And also what you're saying is that, you know,

these other societies, of course, there's other factors, how active they are, etc. But we can't just look at it and say, low carb works for all. There's got to be more to it. And that's what you're trying to explore with the satiety approach that, hey, there's many roads to roam. There's different ways to get you to satiety. But if we don't, regardless of what the approach is, even if somebody's vegan, if we don't keep satiety in mind, quickly we can start to get off. track. So let's run a couple scenarios just to kind of make it tangible for the audience. What would be an example of somebody who's eating, I grew up eating a plant-based diet. I grew up vegetarian,

primarily for religious reasons. My family was Hindu. We were vegetarian, even though my parents said, you know, I could change my mind at any time. Then later on, again, primarily from religious animal rights reasons, I got off a dairy because I had really bad acne. It actually helped my skin a lot and then I was like wow I found the ultimate you know fix for everything everybody's got to be vegan and I went down that pathway so if somebody's doing a plant-based vegan approach and it's not working for them and let's say they're gaining weight or they don't you know feel good what would be some examples of how their satiety scoring on their day-to-day life would be a little bit out of whack that would cause them to overeat because I know a ton of you know overweight and not healthy you know

especially body composition-wise, vegetarians and vegans. So what would be some examples of some things that would take them off track? Sure, absolutely. I would just comment on the fact that you can actually think of this satiety per calorie concept, at least in theory. I mean, I'm not saying that our take on it is perfect yet. It's a work in progress, right? But in theory, you can use this to explain why is it that all kinds of diets work?

How can some people be losing weight and getting really healthy on a vegan diet, while other people lose weight and get really healthy on a carnivore diet? They are doing the opposite, and yet they are both successful. Or in some cases, like what you said, someone else is on a vegan diet and they don't do particularly well. I think that this is... It's like when you pay attention to satiety, it can take you to the right path regardless of the approach, but that same thing if you do the opposite, whether you're vegan. carnivore or something else it can take you in the other direction exactly I mean

you can use this lens and this this way of looking at foods whether you eat Mediterranean food or Mexican foods vegan or carnivore you know you need home-cooked meals or just at fast food restaurants not saying that that's a recommended place to go but you know if you do you can use this in that place as well so coming back to what you were talking about I mean I have a enormous respect for people who eat vegan for religious or environmental concerns or animal rights concerns. I think that's entirely, you know, worthy of a lot of respect. I'm not sure that whether something is vegan or coming from animal sources is the one

and only factor to determine whether it's good for you or not. just like, you know, whether something is high in carbohydrates or lowering carbohydrates is not the one and only thing either. So I think you can eat very healthy with a vegan approach, but you can also eat terrible with a vegan approach. So let's say, for example, potato chips, they can be vegan, French fries can be vegan, yet they are among the lowest satiety foods that you can think of. they're all concentrated starch and fat and almost a very, very little nutrition. You can have all kinds of vegans, sweets and candy and so forth, right? You can eat tons of sugar, drinking, I mean, even drinking soda, you know, that can be vegan.

It's from a plant. It's from corn, corn syrup that's vegan. But it's terrible for your health if you drink a lot of it. So I think that you could definitely use this approach. And so I think from my perspective, a lot of people who are eating a vegetarian or vegan diet may want to look at, how can you increase the amount of protein? Because that may be something that is easy to not get enough of.

And of course, there are plenty of sources of protein from a vegan, perspective, beans, lentils, great, all kinds of tofu or other sources of protein could be great. Eating less processed foods obviously can be beneficial, more home cooked if possible, lower energy density. Vegetables tends to score really high, so of course eating more of that could be great. But all kinds of things you could do. and what we try to do is build tools where you can you can just see out of the foods that you regularly eat how do they score you know which ones are really low and can we guide you to better options for you

that you can maybe just switch from one thing to another from one food that you like to another something that is no extra effort for you, yet your body will get more so tight to be calorie, you will be less hungry, you will spontaneously be eating less over the day because of it. So I think this is super exciting, whether people are vegans or whatever they are. It's fascinating to me, what you can build with is.

You recently, and we'll put it on the YouTube, for those that are watching on YouTube, we'll link to it in the show notes as well. You recently, so, you know, we talked a little about vegan. You recently, you and your team put together a matrix of sort of as keto and sort of low carb has exploded over the last few years, you can go to Costco or Walmart or these different stores and you can get access to all sorts of different keto, you know, enhanced sort of products

by big companies, you know, Hershey's and this and that. And you were trying to show that there's a lot of foods that are out there that even though they might be marketed as a low carb, that those things are actually very low satiety and can cause you to overeat based on the matrix. Give us some examples of, I'm not asking you to like call out brands, but I do think it's helpful to like what type of products would those be so that our audiences could listen because a big part of this is the marketing and people go around and they look at something, they see it's healthy. It's a packaged food. I don't know. if it would be considered ultra-processed or if it would be in the processed category,

probably the processed category. And we reach for these foods, thinking that they could be a regular part of our life, but they could be driving a lot more overeating for many people. Yeah, I mean, we went through a lot of processed, packaged keto or low-carb foods to see what the satitis core of them were. And I would argue there actually are some decent options that some people may want to consider that could work relatively well. But there are also very, very, very bad options out there. And if you think that something is sort of healthy and a good weight loss food just because it says keto on it,

then you can end up in a, you might just fail pretty spectacularly because when we looked at things like brownie mix that was keto or ice cream that was keto, chocolate that was zero sugar, they actually score super, super low. And what they have often done is they've removed much of the carbohydrate, but they've actually added more fat instead and that trade may may not end up being sort of it may not make much of a difference like if you remove a certain amount of carbohydrates and then you had an equal amount of energy from fat added fat instead that might even almost be an equal trade from a sort of satiety perspective

and of course what they do in this product is they remove the sugar and then they add artificial sweeteners instead and that might be a slight improvement from a satiety perspective at least you get a lower energy density and remove some some of the energy from the food so but you still get that kind of hedonic effect because you still have a high fat food that is also for your brain is very sweet the artificial sweeteners still give the same sort of sensation or close to it

so the hedonic effect the reward effect might be close to the same actually again so you end up with a very slight improvement and i mean i've been hanging out in in low carb uh communities and sometimes it's like yay we have a low carb cheesecake here and everybody's like great low carb cheesecake now I can eat a huge chunk of cheesecake and you have to wonder how well that works because often it's still extremely high in calories extremely high in fat almost no nutrition almost no protein very low satiety per calorie and I think a lot of people who struggle to lose weight on a low-carb diet, they might benefit from considering that.

Just because someone says that a cake is low-carb, it doesn't mean that it's free food. You may want to be a little bit cautious at least. You know, one thing that I'd love you to talk about is this aspect of weight loss is one thing, right? I've never been overweight. In fact, a lot of my life, you know, I struggled to maintain a healthy weight, especially being vegan, putting on muscle.

And until I switched and I'm not vegan anymore, which obviously I've shared many times, people can, I feel like you. I respect any dietary approach that people want to do. There's a lot of different ways you need to get there. I think with vegan in particular, especially because you're talking about how important protein is, it's how can you get, whether you're vegan or vegetarian, enough protein without maybe that dramatic amount of carbohydrates that typically come with those concentrated calories that are there that we all tend to, you know, veer towards.

But every dietary approach has its own unique challenges. But I'd love for you to talk about weight loss is one thing. And then there's sort of optimal metabolic health, right? So do you still feel that it's important to maintain, you know, optimal or healthy fasting insulin, for example, and other metabolic markers. And have you seen that this satiety approach still can support the optimization of these metabolic markers? Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, the reason I got into this wasn't about weight loss.

I mean, I'm a family doctor from the beginning. I've been treating people with type 2 diabetes, hypertension, and all these metabolic issues. issues and what's even more important is that these are the main risk factors for the main chronic diseases that that end up killing most people in the Western world prematurely like heart disease cancer dementia stroke and on and on it goes the main risk factors for these diseases are exactly these metabolic health problems high blood sugar, high blood pressure, poor cholesterol profiles, overweight, and all of these things combined, is they are the main risk factors that drive this. And it doesn't just shorten people's lives,

but it actually makes people's quality of life worse long before the end of our lives. So, So if anything, the mission that really drives me is, how can we help guide people to live better lives, to improve the potential to live the life you want? Instead of struggling, using all your willpower to try to eat less, which is almost like a hopeless endeavor in the long term, unless you change what you eat. Instead of just wasting all your willpower doing that and having all kinds of health issues pop up, what if you could eat foods that you love,

as much as you like, as much as little as you like, and then just be happy and content and have all your willpower to achieve whatever is important to you in your life. That's what I want to come. contribute to. So weight loss is really just a way to that because there is this very strong connection between excess abdominal fat and all of these metabolic health problems. And there is this I think very clear connection that the number one thing that has changed that is driving this epidemic of poor metabolic health is the food environment. I think that most people, most experts

would agree with that today. There are of course any number of factors you could point to, but if you have to single out just one, that is the number one, biggest one, by far, then it's most likely the food environment. And the food environment is very different today than when our grandparents or our grandparents, grandparents, grandparents were, around because the food industry has has changed it because they have had to do so they are forced to chase profits that's what they you know any public company has to increase shareholder value they have to increase profits and bring bring rewards to their shareholders that's what they're there to do and the way to do

that for the food industry is you know two things basically you make the food cheaper to increase the margins on on them and that means less nutritious because cheaper ingredients are less nutritious and the second thing you want to do is is making it so that people want to eat and buy as much as possible of it because then you you increase the revenue and and what that ends up driving is this push towards ultra processed foods that are cheap to produce and that people want to eat as much as possible off and then make it make it available everywhere and as cheap as cheap as possible and as available as possible in as many places as possible and then you have the perfect recipe for for this epidemic of obesity and metabolic disease

that is just making the whole human race if you will the whole human race if you will the whole whole humanity less than it could be you know reducing our potential and and the food industry cannot fix this they they are locked into this chase to ever greater profits they have to you know if they try to do something else then whoever is driving that change will be uh fired by their board of directors or their executives or some other company will come in and take over if they really keep at it, right? So they can't do it. The change has to come from either from legislation, which is, I think, hard for all kinds of reasons,

or it has to come from the bottom up, from people buying and eating different kinds of foods. And for that to happen, we have to make it much simpler and convenient. and cheap and personalized. So that's where we are sort of heading, that's what we've been trying to do with diet doctor using a low carb approach. And now we have another brand called HAVA, where we use this a tight approach,

which is more flexible and I think more sustainable and more perhaps more attractive for a broader number of people. Yeah, there's probably a lot of people. listening, myself included, which at one point in time, not anymore. It's like just eat whole foods. Don't worry about all this packaged foods. The rest of it's going to take care of itself. And a big part of your approach with HAVA, which we'll link to in the show notes, is you're trying to reach a broader audience, as you said. But for most individuals, processed foods is going to be, and even some ultra-processed foods, even in places like Europe, is going to be a part of their diet. So if we really want to make a difference, we have to accept that reality and give.

them tools and resources to be able to decide the best options with inside of that matrix. Yes, everybody, I don't love the word should, but everybody can be encouraged towards going towards more Whole Foods diet, but for a lot of people, and if that's not you, you're the person that's listening and that's not you, you definitely have family members where ultra-processed foods is a regular part of their diet or highly, highly processed foods, not just like almond butter and almond milk and you know things like that but highly processed foods so we need to come up with a solution that makes it easier for them so i'd love to go through the matrix a little bit further and kind of break it down on each kind of point so could just comment on that because i think

that's so interesting i get so much pushback on twitter and other places yes so can you explain why you get pushback right yeah and then and then feel free to add because i completely agree with what what you just said. I think the pushback is that we should just encourage people to eat whole foods and don't encourage people to eat ultra-process foods. And I mean, in general, I agree with that. To the extent that people can, you know, buy whole food ingredients and cook for themselves from from scratch, I think that's always going to be the best option. For whoever has the time and inclination to do that, that's going to be the most healthy diet that you can find. But just like you said, 70% of the foods in the US now are ultra processed.

And to think that we can just stop eating that tomorrow, like everybody is going to stop eating that tomorrow, even though it's cheap, convenient and tasty. and the whole food industry is just going to change overnight. I think it's unfortunately not going to happen. So I'm all in favor of encouraging people to cook more, to eat less processed foods. I think that's great. But just like you said, I think if we really want to be able to reach the majority of people, not just 1% or 2% or 3%, but actually most people who are interested in this,

then we have to also supply options for can we guide people to better options, even if it's still ultra-processed, something that's more satiating, more nutritious, that doesn't drive metabolic disease in the same way. I think that's also anything that's better is an improvement, right? Yeah, anything that's better that's an improvement. I also see people where they're coming from to stress test that idea, you know, because largely I agree with you because it's reality. I try not to argue against reality.

Reality is people are eating ultra-processed foods. How can we make a dent? Now, some of the folks on the other side, one of the arguments that I've heard is that, look, if ultra-processed foods are some major percentage of your calories, you will never be able to get to satiety because your entire palate will always be hijacked, either by the environment.

As soon as you walk into make sense, as you walk into McDonald's, even if you're trying to give them a better option, which, by the way, what's, I'd love to hear, what's the better thing that you want them to order at McDonald's or Taco Bell or that sort of thing? I don't know if the app has that. I'm not recommending to go to McDonald's, to be clear. Yeah, yeah, you're not recommending, but we're just saying like, you know, in America, we're a place of fast food. If you find your way at gunpoint, you know, you have to eat at McDonald's, now you have to. Okay, what should you do? Well, I think that it's pretty easy, actually. you should stay away from the sugary soda right and if you can drink water that's that's great but

you know artificially sweetened soda is probably way way way better than than sugary soda and then the other thing that is the lowest satiety food uh is french fries so i would recommend maybe ditching that or taking the smallest possible serving, ideally none. And then instead going for the burgers. And then it's a question of how far do you want to go, maybe just buy whatever burger you want. But if you want to take it one step further, maybe you add an extra burger patty that is more protein,

more satiety per calorie. And if you really want to take it all the way, then you remove the bun, which some people do. And then you have sort of a salad. salad and meat kind of dish. Now it's not so bad anymore, actually, from a satiety per calorie perspective. Yeah, so you're adding in, you're adding in more protein with an extra patty, for example, you're increasing the protein percentage, which is a big part of your sort of matrix.

You're upping the fiber by getting, you know, maybe whatever salad they have access to. And as a byproduct of sort of adding these things in, you're lowering the energy density by, by not consuming things like French fries. etc. So that would be one approach. And again, neither you or me are advocating for people to go to McDonald's. We're just saying that there are people that are going to go to McDonald's and many of them are probably your loved ones that are listening, even if it's your second cousin or uncle or whatever that you haven't seen in a while and we have to get them better tools. But there are a pretty good. I mean, that is perhaps not an easy place to eat great food. But if you go to a

Mexican place and you have a bowl, you know, beans and chicken and vegetables and, you know, you can eat quite highly satiating foods at a not too expensive cost and very cheap and very fast and convenient. It's possible. Yeah. I guess I guess the area that a lot of people are trying to figure out is that when you are eating a lot of packaged foods as part of your diet, even packaged foods that people get from the grocery store, versus people who primarily cook for themselves at home, are those packaged foods, and is that environment, like, once you get started, can you stop, right? Once you get started eating a lot of those, that's the argument that I hear sometimes

from folks, is that those foods are, that environment, those foods are so highly palatable, not if they obviously are choosing the higher satiety ones, that can they even expect that the average person is going to be able to consistently make the right choice that's there in this environment? I think the thing is, it's already happening. People already have the base of their diets, these packaged foods.

So if you can get them from going from, you know, you have this photo of crunchy granola, nature valley, and it has a six, it has a six satiety score. We'll put the image up here. This is a food that I've seen a lot in my family members, you know, not my immediate family, not my parents and sisters and stuff. But I'll go to cousins houses.

I'll see this crunchy granola. People think that they're doing a good job. And this food has a six because it's low protein. And has a decent amount of fiber. The energy density is low, which meaning like it's high, right? And the hedonic score is very high as well. So it causes you to overeat. So if there was another source.

packaged granola that's out there, which there are, that they could get at Costco or Walmart or something. And instead of it being a six, I've seen some that are out there that are maybe like a 30 or a 40. At least they're doing a better job. And it makes a big difference. So, I mean, many of these, it's pretty fascinating because you can see, like you said, on the packaging, it's all natural and it's whole grains and it's this and that and it's all sound so so good for you but then you actually look at it and it's basically sugar and fat and yeah and crunchy sugar and fat that you just can't stop eating super palatable very addictive yeah so it's it's tricky but i think what we do with our satitis scoring is we have a separate scoring

for this hedonic factor and you will actually be able to see if it is because like you say some people find it hard to stop eating these foods once they get started and when we talk about these foods usually talking about these hyper palatable very highly hedonic foods these combinations of sugar fat and salt and you know you could help guide you to less hyper addictive foods, to some extent at least. Of course, it's always hard to break an addiction, no doubt. Of course. As you went down this journey, well, first of all, let me just extrapolate this a little bit further.

This is not some arbitrary score that you came up with, right? Tell us how you and a team put this together and what some of the influences were of the data points that led to this matrix of protein, fiber, energy density, and then of course, the last one you mentioned, the hedonic score. No, it's actually, we're trying to lean on. Of course, this is not something that we are just doing in a vacuum here. We are leaning on what are the factors that have the strongest scientific evidence for influencing how much people want to eat?

So we've been talking to a lot of researchers and scientists who've been doing these studies, looking through the literature. So Dr. Ted Nyman, this has really been his passion for quite some time. So he's been digging through the literature and started creating this algorithm that initially it was pretty simple and then it just gets more and more complex. time and we had we had functionality to it and then we've sort of been we've been talking to a number of researchers to see you know what would they change what factors would they consider to be the most evidence-based and and which ones would be would make a good overall overall combination. So from looking at the, looking at the science and talking to a number of researchers, we ended up eventually with these four factors. But you know, you could imagine that

we're not married to these. So if we figure out that we could add a fifth or a sixth factor to make this algorithm stronger and better predictive, then of course we'll do that. Or if one of these should go and it's or you know exactly how do we weigh these factors against each other again what we try to do there is we we look at the predicted results of our algorithm and then we check to see compare that to to studies randomized control trials with humans where they where they measure ad lib intake meaning when people get to eat as much or as little as they want from different kinds of diets how much how much do they end up eating so what we what we do is we look at the available data and then we try to weigh these factors to get the result that is as close as possible to

what seems like reality right yeah but again what I want to make clear is that our current system is a work in progress and there is clearly no perfect data in the world today to say exactly which factors to combine in exactly what way and exactly how to weigh them together that data doesn't exist it will take a whole lot more studying to get there but what i would argue is that even with the limited data we have all the studies that have been made so far we I believe can already make a system that is stronger and better than any individual factor on its own because here we're combining four different factors in other studies maybe maybe they're only looking at carbohydrates or maybe only looking at protein or you know in some studies they're only looking at only look at energy dance, it did nothing else. And you can get an effect from just focusing on one factor, but it seems pretty clear that if you bake them all together, all these four factors, then you get two benefits.

One is you can get an even stronger effect because you're doing more things together, not just one thing. And the second benefit is you get a more flexible approach, because if you only optimize for just one factor then you end up with something like now you have to eat a low energy density diet and that that can be pretty pretty bland and boring or or you can eat a only a low carb diet and that has its own drawbacks now you can never eat bread you can never eat pasta you can never eat this and that it becomes a bit rigid and unfluxed So I would argue that using this approach, baking these all together, you get more levers to pull and you end up with something that is a potentially more effective for people who struggle to reach their goals and be more flexible, more sustainable, more something that can fit your life, your preferences, your favorite foods, much better than any specific diet that only focuses on one thing.

So to me, even though we're only kind of getting started here, to me, this is already better than anything I've seen. And it seems largely your approach is, again, for people, you know, we're doing this summer of weight loss series and body composition series. Everybody's talked about the importance of how quality matters of the food, but also total quantity in terms of the calories matter as well. and the piece that you're bringing into the equation is that, okay, great, you would agree with that too. But the calories piece for most people, you know, some of the experts that we've already had so far, some of them who you know, the typical approach is, hey, listen, you've got to audit your food. So get a food scale. And at least for a couple weeks or a month, your main meals that you have, weigh your food,

put it in a calorie tracker, get a rough idea of the things that are there for you. Sure, okay, maybe some people can do that for a month. When you get that to a lot of the folks that are just focused on the energy balance side, they may say that you need to do that forever. The longer you do something that's rigid, which is part of your argument, the less likely you're going to be able to keep it up. So your thesis is that if we focus on primarily the satiety aspect, then we don't have to be thinking about counting calories as much

as long as we adhere to the principles that are there. So I'm just kind of putting it into helping people understand. Is that a good summary? Would you add anything else to that? I think that's a fair summary. I would argue that very few people, I think, are able to just eat less. If you are counting calories for months and months and trying to restrict them, what you end up doing, ultimately is you figure out what foods that you can get away with eating,

it's not going to be french fries and potato chips only right because they are driving you to eat more but so you you do it the indirect way you just eventually you just by trial and error you figure it out like i can eat lean proteins and i can eat this uh and i i can restrict my calories yeah what i would argue is that that's a very slow and painful way to do it why not go directly to what's what's causing you to overeat instead and fix that right away. And by finding these higher satiety foods that you can love and eat and, you know, enjoy life with, now you no longer have to count calories ever again because you are eating foods that are satiating that cause you to eat spontaneously a proper, you know, reasonable amount of calories without ever

tracking it you just eat as much for as little as you want but you end up eating less anyways and and this may sound too good to be true but it's it's not it's been proven and that there is this very fascinating study for example by Kevin Hall testing ultra processed foods versus unprocessed foods um with people who are locked up in in this uh medical facility and when people get to eat only ultra-processed foods as much for as little as they want, they eat 500 calories more per day and gain weight. And when they eat unprocessed foods, they eat spontaneously, without counting, 500 calories less, and they start losing weight. And even though they're eating vastly different amounts of food, when they're asked, they like it as much. They feel as full, they feel as

hungry as satiated they like the food equally much but there is this massive difference right and so i'm leaning on studies like that when i say that this is this has been proven if you choose foods that are more satiating less processed and for all these reasons that you've you mentioned or some combination of it then you no longer have to count calories yeah you can in a way eat intuitively as much as little as you want and still be successful the problem with eating intuitively in the general food environment we're in is that that's a disaster right because all the foods have been engineered to make you over it and if you try to be intuitive about it these foods are going to make you massively overeat and you're going to end up being as obese as everybody

else which is you know not a good thing unfortunately so that doesn't work but if you know which foods to eat now then it can work now you can eat intuitively now you can use your brain the way it's supposed to be functioning the way it's been shaped by evolution to to guide you to the proper amounts of foods just the right amount of foods that you need because of your individual situation how much you've been moving today you know whether you have an infection in your body how you slept all these things you don't have to bring out the spreadsheet because you have a circuit in your brain that's going to take care of that for you as long as you eat foods that have normal satiety.

So a lot of people are on Twitter. You talk about individual foods. This is in buildup to your app eventually coming out later on this year that people can sign up for. Is there a wait list that people can join from our audience? Yeah, sure. You can go to Harvard.com and sign up for the waitlist for, to get early access to it. but it's not available yet.

Not available yet, but they can eventually go and sign up for it. In the meantime, as people are looking at some of the content that you're putting out there, foods that are less satiating, more satiating, people typically are putting together meals. And as they're putting it out of the meals, those meals comprise of individual sort of components. So are there, from your perspective, because I'm sure you imagine, everybody who is very curious about what does the doctor eat himself, not that you are advocating how you eat for everybody else, and you've said many times there's a lot of different ways that people can end up eating healthy and follow the principles that make sense to them. But what would be

some ways that you are having a high satiety breakfast, for example, that fits your dietary personality, right? Just as an example, not, again, not that this is a prescription for everybody else, but just what does a high satiety breakfast look like for you in your own life? Sure, absolutely. I mean, I often don't even eat breakfast in the weekdays, but I eat in the weekends. And I mean, a lot of eggs, I would say, fried or boiled. And something else ate a lot of is some version of low fat Greek yogurt, you know, high protein and pretty low, low calories. And then I have some berries or chopped apple and then coffee. of course, I have to have coffee.

Speaking of coffee, back in the day, you used to drink a lot as you were starting down the low-car movement. You would have a lot of, you know, there's a whole trend of people adding butter to their coffee or MCT oil. Tell us, why did you stop that process? Yeah, I think that that's probably a pretty major mistake unless you really need all that energy. And I would argue most people today do not.

Certainly not if you want to lose weight. don't put powder in your coffee. I would drink it black or with a little bit of milk. That's my suggestion. But yeah, it's a huge amount of added fats that most people don't need today. Got it. Got it. So you gave this presentation at, I believe it was low-carb Denver.

And you talked about sort of like your, you know, like a typical salad that you might have for lunch, right? Can you break that down? and what are the factors that are part of it that lead to a high satiety score that leave you in a place personally where you've said, you know, you eat a meal and you're content. You don't search around for a lot of different things. Sure, you're a human being like anybody else. I'm sure there's days where you're more stressed out where you might want to reach for something or emotional eating or that. We all have a little bit. But generally your baseline is set up in a way that you don't overeat and you generally feeling content.

So that salad that you typically would make, what does that mean? Yeah, but any salad really with a lot of protein. in it would be a good choice. I mean, for me, yeah, it could be a lot of chicken salads, but it doesn't have to be that. It could be anything that is high protein. I'm actually quite fond of some vegetarian protein options as well, beans and edamami beans perhaps.

It's really fascinating how they are really among the highest to tight foods you can eat. So that's a tip. Yeah, a high protein salad. Anything you like. You know, your work is getting people away from counting calories. But do you feel that it's important or how do you think of the context of macros? For example, high protein for somebody could mean something else, could mean different for other people.

We've had multiple guests on this podcast talk about, you know, try to get, you know, in America here, you know, try to get a gram. of, you know, protein per healthy body weight, if you're overweight or if you're already lean, you know, trying to get a gram for that. How do you think about macros in the conversation of satiety? You're telling people, you know, prioritize protein as part of this matrix that are there. Is there a target amount of protein that you're trying to have people reach? I think a gram per pound is a good general rule if people are tracking, but I think most people are not really so I'm not so I'm not I really want to find ways to make this very very simple and since most people are not counting how many grams of protein they eat every

day I think it's more interesting to look at or simpler to look at what foods are are high protein as a percentage of the calories which often is well it's it's one of the main factors that that drive this is a tight-dipa-calorie So if you eat foods that you know are higher satiety, generally they are also higher in protein, and you're not going to be low in protein if you base your foods on higher satiety, higher protein foods. You're going to eat probably more protein than you did when you started by quite a bit. But again, if you want to have a number, yeah, gram per pound, sure. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a, the most simplistic approach.

And that's obviously tough for a lot of us that were in the space of trying to figure out, you know, all these different things that we had to do to optimize or backtrack from a particular way of eating. And I love that simple approach. And really, do you feel that the core essence of it is like, hey, evolutionarily, we've made it this far up until, let's say, the industrialization of food. We survived. We made it. Nobody counted.

Nobody counted calories. Nobody was tracking protein. Nobody tracked protein grams. And in a way, they were intuitively eating because they had to based on the environment. So we're just trying to return to that. That's the answer for people. Yeah, exactly. Because you can find all these populations that none of them counted calories,

none of them counted protein grams or carb grams or anything. and yet obesity was non-existent, hypertension, cardiovascular disease, mostly non-existent. Sure, I mean, they got a cat and got infected, and then they died from that. That's a bummer. You know, they got hit on the head and no hospital you die. So they didn't necessarily always live as long as we do. But when they did, and some people did live long. and happy lives, they were free of our chronic diseases.

And I think that's pretty fascinating because it tells me that we could have both. Of course, we have antibiotics, we have hospitals, we have all of these things, right? What if we could also have health as we age and be free of these chronic diseases of aging that we get, then we could have the best of both worlds? We could live long and happy, healthy lives.

So I want to be part of contributing to that in whatever small way I can. I think that's pretty amazing, the possibilities. So while you and your team are finishing up the app and you'll put it out sometime maybe later on this year, early next year, and again, we'll link in the show notes where people can sign up for the wait list. Let's leave the audience with a few kind of core principles of things that they get excited about this conversation. They want to prioritize satiety. They're eating some level of processed foods in their life, which is, you know, going to be my audience here. Not everybody, even myself, you know, not everything I made is cooked at home.

I'll still go to Whole Foods and pick up some of the boxed and bagged, you know, different items. So while we don't have the ability to scan our food in the meantime because the app is not here, do you want to leave our audience with a few sort of core principles that they could really help to kind of think about how do I apply satiety in my matrix of eating right now? Yeah, I think a core thing is try to eat more protein rich foods as a way to get satiety, as a way to not be so hungry and not have so many cravings for less healthy foods. If you load up on protein, early in the morning is good. if you have breakfast, eat a high protein breakfast.

What does that mean? Maybe 30 grams of protein or more. What are good sources of that? Well, you know, eggs, good source. Another thing that I mentioned that I'm partial to is low fat Greek yogurt, very, very high protein as a percentage. Can't go wrong with that and whatever you want with it, basically. Yeah, more protein.

and of course I mentioned one thing about the protein, just sorry to interrupt you. You shared in your presentation but I forgot what the theory or the thesis is but that there was a group of researchers that feel that the search for protein

is maybe one of the reasons why people overeat because they're not getting enough protein. Can you explain this a little bit for our audience? Yeah, it's a fascinating theory. The two professors called Robin Hubbard and Simpson. They've done a lot of exact studies on this called the protein leverage hypothesis and what they say is humans and

really animal we eat for two two specific reasons one is to get the nutrients that our body needs this is the thing that that builds our bodies right which is basically protein and vitamins that come together with protein the other thing we need is energy that us able to move and think and do all the things we do so nutrients to build our bodies and energies to to to run them and the energy comes from carbohydrates and fat and the nutrients come together with with protein it is protein and comes together with protein now what happens is that humans and other animals tend to eat until we get a certain amount of nutrients a certain amount

of protein. That is kind of what we need. We can't store enormous amounts of this. So we kind of need it every day, which means that we end up trying to eat at least as much as we need every day. And what happens is that if the food you're eating is nutrient diluted, if it's mostly just carbohydrates and fat, then you will have to eat much more of, of both nutrients and energy in order to get the nutrients you need. You end up eating more, more energy. Now that's exactly what's been happening to our food supply. In order to make it more profitable and cheaper to produce,

we've just poured massive amounts of sugar and oil into our processed food supply, which dilutes the nutrients, dilutes the protein. And according to this theory, it just forces us We don't even have a choice, really. It forces us to eat more to get the nutrients, the protein that we need. Then we end up eating more energy every day on average because it's been nutrient diluted.

It's got low nutrient density, if you will. And this is one of the factors that we factor into the satiety formula. It's one of the most, it seems powerful factors. Beautiful. I interrupted you while you were leaving the audience with some. takeaways here as we sort of wind down. You mentioned protein. You also gave the background on that. Thank you for that. Were there other couple items you wanted to leave them with? Yeah, I mean, be extra careful, of course, with high sugar foods. I mean, I'm sure all you

guests say that. And high sugar and high fat combinations are the worst, right? High carb, high fat combinations. If you can avoid that, that's a good idea. Yeah, and there's a lot of health foods that are in that category that fit that. mold. So even healthy foods that are like healthy concoctions of things, you know, high sugar, high fat, that is what I personally see. Even, you know, living here in Los Angeles, we have so many great stores, grocery stores, Air One. I don't know if you've heard of that before, but that's a great place out here. There's a lot of high sugar, high fat foods that are there because they taste great. And there's ways to do it, making it organic and this. Fine. We can have a little bit of

that in their lives. But when the base of our diet is those types of foods that are out there, it makes it much easier to overeat. Yeah, well, let's start your day with protein and then make sure you get enough. And that really, I think, for a lot of people, can be the number one thing that really makes it a lot easier to be less hungry, have less cravings, and it would be easier to to choose a better, choose better options. Well, Dr. E, this has been great. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast,

laying out your satiety approach. Any way that our audience can keep in touch with you and your work, where do you want to send them as you and your team are building this app and they want to follow along and pay attention to the other really cool things you're up to? Yeah, you can find us on all the social networks. Harvard. CEO and I'm pretty active on Twitter.

So if you want to interact with me or ask me anything, I'll probably reply. So at Dr. E on Twitter. All right. Well, thank you for being on the podcast. Super appreciate you. Thank you, Drew. It was a pleasure to be here. Hi, everyone.

Drew here. Two quick things. Number one, thank you so much for listening to this podcast. If you haven't already, subscribe, just hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast app. And by the way, if you love this episode, it would mean the world to me. and it's the number one thing that you can do to support this podcast is share with a friend, share with a friend who would benefit from listening. Number two, before I go, I just had to tell you about something that I've been working on that I'm

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