Dhru Purohit Show - Want a Better Relationship? Use These 3 Super Hacks to Improve Your Communication, Sex, and Intimacy

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi everyone, Drew Brod here. On today's episode, we have three incredible. I've used every single one of these in my own life and relationship. We have three incredible tips in detail from three, actually four of the world's top experts on relationship, connection, and intimacy. You guys have heard me talk about this before, but the longest running study from Harvard, which was like some 60, 70, 80 years. I don't have the notes in front of me showed that human, human, connection with the deepest relationships around us is directly connected to our happiness. Our relationships are a huge part of our happiness. Now, of course, it includes friendships, our relationships with our children, our friend group, but it also includes our partnership, our wife, our husband, our boyfriend, our girlfriend, whatever it might be. And maybe some of you listening today are not in a relationship, but might want to be in a relationship one day. These tips are still useful for you. So if our relationships matter and one of the closest relationships to us is our partner, our intimate partner, why wouldn't we want to be thinking about the things that would bring us together?

Starting point is 00:01:09 That's why we have three, as I mentioned, four actually, of the top folks on today's podcast sharing those tips from previous episodes. So we're going to go right into the first one, which comes from doctors John and Julie Gottman, speakers, researchers, therapists, OGs in this space. And what was unique, about their approach is at a time when nobody was actually doing research on what solutions actually led to happier, long-lasting marriages. Doctors John and Julie Gottman started the Gottman Foundation. And in this next clip, they talk about a seven-year-long study that they conducted that essentially found that a great way to destroy your relationships in life is to primarily focus on what's wrong instead of simply just celebrating what's right. But how do we do we do?

Starting point is 00:01:57 do that? What's the practical way to do it? We're going to jump into this first clip where Dr. John and Julie Gottman explain the how to of how to actually do this process, which brings couples together. One of the things that is kind of surprising in the research is, you know, when psychologists started developing couples therapies in the 1970s, they just assumed that unhappy couples weren't very nice to each other. But it turned out that they are quite often nice to each other, but their partner misses about 50% of that positivity if they're unhappily married. So you don't have to get people to be more positive. You have to get them to notice the positivity that is there.

Starting point is 00:02:46 And that requires a very different habit of mind. Instead of looking for your partner's mistakes and correcting them, you look for what your partner is doing right and express gratefulness for what you see. And this is one of the first things you teach inside of the book and the making contact in the seven, you know, items that you have in there for the prescription of love. It's this idea towards turning towards your partner. Actually, you know what? Why don't you set it up? There's turning towards somebody, turning away from somebody.

Starting point is 00:03:15 And how does that play into this idea of noticing your partner, acknowledging them, and helping both people step into love? Okay. So this came out of a seven-year. long study. It really took a long time to figure this one out because it was so subtle, but also so simple for all of us to do. So here's what it looks like. Let's say you're sitting in the living room and you happen to notice this beautiful blue jay out the window. You might say, wow, look at that incredible bird. It's just turquoise. It's so beautiful. And let me role play or response. So I can be so self-absorbed in what I'm reading, for example, that I just

Starting point is 00:04:03 don't really pay attention to it. I don't respond at all. And that's turning away. Or I can respond irritably by saying something like, will you be quiet? I'm trying to read. Woo! And that's turn against. Ow. Or I can turn toward. I can say, ah, yeah, beautiful bird. that's all it takes isn't that amazing you know it's it's really so simple it's turning toward it's turning toward which is absolutely fundamental to that foundation we found in our seven-year study in the apartment lab which is we call the love lab that the time the percentage of time that successful couples turned towards each other

Starting point is 00:04:55 when the other person made a bid for connection was 85%. 86%? Sorry, honey. 86% of the time. And compare that to the times the partner who ended up in an unhappy relationship turned towards each other.

Starting point is 00:05:17 That was 33% of the time. That's a huge difference. Right? 86 compared to 33. So you can see how turning toward was so important in the longevity and the happiness of a successful relationship, even six years down the road. Well, the other thing that was amazing about turning toward was that it discriminated the couples who had a sense of humor during conflict could laugh at themselves and laugh together and reduced their physiological around. So if you turn toward a lot, you're kind of building an emotional bank account, a buffer. And then when there's conflict, you actually, both of you are more affectionate and have more of a sense of humor during conflict.

Starting point is 00:06:07 So turning forward is really powerful. You know, Julie, you mentioned a word there. You said, a bid for contact, right? Is that what you use? A connection, a bid for connection. And my wife and I, and I've been very vocal on social media, you know, we've worked with the Gottman trained therapist here in Los Angeles. We love him, Michael. And we used your 52 questions before marriage and moving in when we were in the courting phase to just see, are we on the same page? And a big part of our work with the Gottman method through our therapist here has been getting on the same page about a common lexicon, understanding of vocabulary to notice these. important pillars, both the things that successful couples do to spiral upwards and then the things that people do to spiral downwards so we can make sure we stay away from them. And this idea,

Starting point is 00:07:01 a bid for connection, it's so simple yet I think a lot of people may not even recognize when it's going on. So just can you explain that a little bit? What does that look like in a relationship? And how often is that a point of contention in a relationship when another partner doesn't see that bid. Okay. So bids for connection in a nutshell are when you are saying something or doing something that is a request for your partner's attention or a request for your partner to fulfill some need of yours.

Starting point is 00:07:42 So let's take some subtle examples. Let's say that I've been working in the kitchen. John's in the living room and he is. reading. I walk in from the kitchen, I sit down on the couch and I say, what are you reading? Okay. Now, he can respond to that in a couple of ways. He can either say, it's just a book on physics, and he'll go back to reading, or he can be pretty alert to bids for connection, and he can say, oh, it's a book on physics. Do you want to hear what it's about?

Starting point is 00:08:25 And I'll say, yeah, tell me all about it, even though I'll glaze over as you do so. And he does. So that's a bit for connection. Another one might be, let's say I'm working hard in the kitchen again, and he comes in and he says, what's for dinner? And I say a chicken stew. Then I ask for a need.

Starting point is 00:08:55 Would you mind setting the table? Well, by then, if he turns away, he's walking out of the kitchen. He's not going to hear the bid for connection. Or he can say, yeah, sure. Simple as that.

Starting point is 00:09:12 Sometimes the need is deeper. So a bid for connection might sound like this. It might be, let's say I'm sitting on the couch this time and staring out the window. I've just heard some news on TV that's political and my mouth is turn to the south. It's very down on the corners. Well, I know. John can look at me and say, gosh, what's the matter, honey? And I'll say, God, can I just download with you? Can I just tell you what's going on inside me? I'm just so depressed about what's happening in our country. And he can say, yeah, me too. Let's talk about it.

Starting point is 00:10:01 And then we do. And we may have an hour or two hour long conversation. So, you know, that's a deeper bid for connection. But equally important are those little bids for connection too. in which we're constantly turning towards each other when the other person asked for something subtly. I've got another good example, you know. So I remember one morning you said, I had a really disturbing dream last night. So that's a bid.

Starting point is 00:10:37 And so if I said, oh, what did you dream? Tell me about it. That's turning toward. Now, if you said, well, I dreamt about my mother and it was something very upsetting. Now I could say, hmm, okay, interesting. I go back to reading the newspaper as opposed to saying,

Starting point is 00:10:54 well, tell me what happened with your mother. What did your dream? You know, I'm interested in exploring it. I can see she's disturbed by the dream. I see it as an opportunity for connecting rather than just perfunctively saying, oh, oh, that's interesting. Okay, and I go back to reading.

Starting point is 00:11:13 here's another little simple bit for connection let's say John is getting ready to get out the door and he's having a hard time zipping up his jacket and he keeps messing up with a zipper and he's trying and trying and you can hear him making little sounds like and so all I'll do is I'll just say let me do it

Starting point is 00:11:43 honey. And I'll figure out a way to zip up his jacket. You know, it's just simple, simple. That happened yesterday. Yes, it did. Just on the cheek. But, you know, I mean, there's just so many ways that we can be interlinked. And can I bring up something, Drew? Please. Yeah. There's, you know, there's a lot of people out there who've heard. that you should never be dependent on each other. You shouldn't lean on each other. You should be independent. You should be able to stand up on your own two feet

Starting point is 00:12:24 because if you lean on each other, you'll somehow become symbiotic. You'll depend on each other. Co-dependent. You'll depend on each other too much or something. And I'm here to tell you that there's absolutely no research behind that. It's wrong.

Starting point is 00:12:41 The research actually points to the opposite, the exact opposite, that these bids for connection and turning toward are the way of you becoming interdependent. So there is this, I like to think of a golden sphere between the two of you, in which the relationship is built, the dynamics of the relationship. And it needs to contain those little bids for connection and a lot of yeses to those bids for connection. You know, having a happy, healthy, and fulfilling relationship and sex life with our partner is something that most of us desire. And yet most of us have not been taught the practicalities of building and maintaining successful, fulfilling relationships, even in our intimacy and sex life. Next up, we talk with Dr. Emily Morse, a doctor of human sexuality who talks about a very taboo subject that has all sorts of misconceptions around it. And it's the idea of scheduling sex.

Starting point is 00:14:00 And by the way, that doesn't just mean sex in the penetrative idea of it. It actually could just be sex in the form of intimacy and connections. So many couples think that we have this Disneyification of our sex lives. which means that we think that it should always be spontaneous. And if it's not spontaneous and hot and heavy, then it's not real. And yet one thing that we learn from Emily is that some of the couples that she's worked with that are the happiest actually prioritize their intimacy and their sex life by scheduling it. Let's listen to Dr. Emily about why this works and why everybody initially,

Starting point is 00:14:42 if they're new to this idea has some resistance when they hear it. Let's jump in. You say that, you know, so many people think of planning and scheduling sex as like, oh, it's a failure. And yet it's one of the core things that can allow certain couples to regularly experience intimacy in their life in a way that matches everybody's needs. Exactly. I understand why people say I don't want to schedule sex because, again, that goes against everything we've told about sex that if you have to talk. First of all, there are these notions that if you have to talk about sex, it means that you're doomed, that you should be mind readers and you should figure it out.

Starting point is 00:15:21 I'm telling you now that doesn't happen. But when you do schedule sex and you're like, okay, I know that Saturday night is the best night for us to have sex. I'm not going to try to do it on Wednesday or Thursday when it's not going to be ideal. But we know that it's Saturday. Then we know how to reverse engineer it and say these are all the things that need to be in place for us to be ready to be intimate that night, whether it's getting a babysit or, for the kids. It's getting myself into the mindset to be ready for sex. And also, you know,

Starting point is 00:15:52 again, having these conversations with our partners about sex that's ongoing. It's not a one-time conversation. It's not a conversation that you have when there's only a problem. In fact, I encourage everybody to today have that conversation with your partner and say, you know what? I've just learned, I'm listening to Drew's podcast and I learned today that actually couples who talk about sex have better sex. I really do. realize that it's something that maybe we've never done before, but we can also in this interview kind of lay out how people can do that. But I want people to find out if they're with the partner. Hopefully they are at it with a partner who has a growth mindset around sex and realizes that

Starting point is 00:16:30 this is something that we're going to have to work on our intimacy, commit to a plan, and stick with it and honor each other's desires, wants, and needs to make the sex really satisfying and hot. Is it fair to say in most relationships, there's going to be one person that kind of has the courage enough to kick things off and say, listen, we gotta do something about it and we get to do something about it because I love you, you love me, and we wanna make this better, right?

Starting point is 00:16:57 Like there's gotta be one person that kicks it off. There's not this magical situation where both people at the same time wake up and say, now, your partner is participating with you on the journey and you need them to engage in the dialogue. But if that's you and you're the person listening here, like there's no shame in that. In fact, that's great because it shows that you value,

Starting point is 00:17:16 you exactly. No, exactly. And I love that you're saying that. So we're talking about the high desire, the low desire. One partner is going to want to and the other isn't. Absolutely. But I also want to note that usually it's one partner thinks that they have to do everything. Like they're the one that's driving the conversation and the one that has to do all the heavy lifting. And eventually you're going to get to a place where you're both working on it. But yes, to answer your question, typically it's one person that's like, okay, let's talk about it. I realize we haven't. And can we create a really safe, honest, loving space for us to have these conversations

Starting point is 00:17:53 that are gentle and nurturing and caring and loving and acknowledging that the world is not set up for this, that our past messages, our religion, our upbringing, our background, our past relationships in no way set any of us up to have conversations about sex. So even just acknowledging to your partner, like, I know this might say, weird or awkward or maybe you're having some defense come up right now that, you know, I'm doing something wrong. And I think you just have to at this point say, I know this, babe, I know this might be sort of jolting to you and it might feel threatening to you. But I really think that if we can agree that we're just going to start having conversations about it, we can both become

Starting point is 00:18:36 really great, beautiful lovers to each other. Like, are you on board? And again, not a one-time conversation. You don't figure everything out. It's not, you know, but it's, that might be your first conversation. It's just saying, would you agree that, or would you be willing to start exploring with us? And I'm telling you, Drew, I'm telling you, the couples who, and we're going to talk about this, move through the shame and all the obstacles that are coming up, because I even hear people going, but you don't even know what's been going in my life. I do. I get it. But we're going to move past that because the exciting thing is that when couples do move past all the blocks, then they have the incredible, connected, beautiful, loving sex that they desire.

Starting point is 00:19:16 You have a few basic core rules around even getting to a place to have a conversation. And they have to do with turf and timing. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I'll talk about that because it's really, really, it's actually very important because it's not just like we're talking about, I'm trying to think of another conversation that might be easy. Like, are we, you know, where are we going on our summer trip or even conversations about money? although this tactic could be used then too.

Starting point is 00:19:43 This is a really delicate conversation. So I have the three T's of communication, which is timing, tone, and turf. And so because I don't recommend that you just, you know, when you're in the bedroom and your partner, you feel like something's gone wrong and sexually and you feel rejected again to bring up sex. No, we have to be very, very mindful about this conversation.

Starting point is 00:20:03 So timing, tone, and turf is timing. Find a time when you are just the two of you are relaxing, you're hanging out, maybe it's date night. And I always want to say you're not halt, you're not hungry, angry, lonely, or tired. Those are not the times to have any awkward or serious conversations. The tone is curious and open and supportive and loving and light, maybe do some breathwork beforehand. You make sure that you're coming from a place of collaboration. And the turf for this conversation is outside the bedroom. I just would love people to consider your bedroom as a place for sleeping and for sex.

Starting point is 00:20:41 And it's not a place to have these conversations. Because often people think, well, we're having sex or something just happened awkward in the bedroom or I got rejected again when I made in advance and this would be the time to have it. I couldn't be further from the truth that a great time to have it is when you are perhaps out taking a walk. You're not making eye contact, which can still be very awkward people. So you can, you know, or you're in a road trip.

Starting point is 00:21:06 Those are great times to have these conversations. then that's when you would say, hey, let's talk about something that we haven't before. Let's talk about our intimate life. Most people want to have a better sex life and they want to talk about their resentments. They want to talk about the stuff that's on their chest, but there's so much that's been built up that they don't even know how to get started. Exactly. Or they feel like they've been placed on defense because of the wrong time, play situation.

Starting point is 00:21:32 Exactly. Of somebody wanting to bring up, you know, the sensitive topic of wanting to improve, you know, their sex life. And I think another thing that you brought up, which was really key there, which is this curious attitude around it and not coming from a place of blaming your partner, and the Gottman's call it sometimes the soft starter, right, that you are coming in like, hey, listen, I don't know if this is something that you've been thinking about, but I got to feel like it probably is too because you care about this relationship. Like it's coming in with so much benefit of the doubt that you're not immediately putting

Starting point is 00:22:06 somebody on defense of, hey, why aren't we having more sex or, hey, why aren't you paying attention to my needs? Which immediately, you know, Byron Katie, if you're familiar with her work, she has this phrase, defense is the first act of war. When you come in hot and your partner is now on the defense, immediately that shuts down all the conversation. Absolutely. And this is exactly, this is exactly it that if your partner and they might, because going back to your question, I really want to unpack that, if they've stonewallered, they said this is off limits. I am never talking about sex. And I'm telling you, I hear this all the time.

Starting point is 00:22:41 I hear from the partner who's, you know, wants to talk and their partner is completely shut down. So it is a curious consciousness with, what did you say? The Gottman's called it, a soft start. It's saying, you know, and it's curious, it's saying, so I hear that you don't want to talk about sex and it's really shut down for you. And I'm just wondering if we could tell me more about that.

Starting point is 00:23:01 What does it feel like to talk about sex? I just don't want to talk about it. now you're making it a thing. Okay, yeah, it sounds like it's really, really, really, really painful to talk about it. I'm hearing you really don't want to talk about it. And I have some tools in here, too, like that is that about, you know, like the Amago theory of listening. I mean, listening is so key in our relationships.

Starting point is 00:23:22 Can you explain what that is? Yeah, I can't explain to it. It's really just the theory of it's a, it's a tool. But when you're talking your partner about something, you repeat back what the question, what you heard them say. So let's say your partner says, I don't want to talk about sex ever. You're always pressuring me. Now, our first insignificant to be like, I never pressure you, no.

Starting point is 00:23:45 But from a loving, curious, softer place, we can say, so what I hear you saying is that sex is not something that you want to talk about right now and that it's not okay that I'm asking. No, I didn't say that I don't want to talk about right now. I don't want to talk about it ever. You know, okay, so you don't want to talk about sex. hearing you say is you never want to talk about sex. Okay. Yeah, that's what I said. Okay. Well, could you tell me more about that? Could you tell me about what it might feel like to talk about sex? Yeah, I just, you know, I fear you are pressuring me again. So I hear you're feeling really, really pressured about this, you know? And there might even be like time to diffuse it, but what I'm saying is it's just

Starting point is 00:24:26 you're repeating back what you hear. Now maybe you get to another place where they said, yeah, Because maybe you have more information. And they're saying, every time we talk about sex, I feel like I'm doing something wrong. Maybe that's what they say. So I hear you saying that every time we talk about sex, you feel like I'm criticizing you and doing something wrong. Yeah, I do feel that way. And I feel really criticized and unsafe.

Starting point is 00:24:52 Okay, so you feel unsafe. Yeah, you know. And then you'll realize that when you repeat back, it's much like therapy that someone and say, well, it's not so much unsafe. It's just that it doesn't feel right for us to talk about sex. It feels like if we have to talk about sex, that there's a problem in the relationship. And now you're just gathering information.

Starting point is 00:25:10 You're learning that your partner feels like anytime you talk about sex, there's a problem. Maybe they've even shared with you that in the past someone tried to talk about it and it wasn't healthy. You know, so this might be the very first conversation. You don't have to come to a conclusion. It doesn't have to be the last time you talk about sex.

Starting point is 00:25:26 Remember, this is the first time you talked about it. And then you just thank your partner. You're learning more about them. And then you can, you know, bring it up again. If they really won't talk about it, I mean, again, it could be like maybe once a week, once a month. But eventually, hopefully you're going to get to a place your partner feels like this is just really an important topic. I've just got to. And what you're going to see is probably there's some stress, trauma, or shame that's come up.

Starting point is 00:25:50 Now, we don't have to be our partner's therapist either. If you feel like your partner's like, no, I'm not talking about it or I had some earlier trauma. This is where I highly recommend therapy. I think that every single person can benefit from therapy, every couple benefits from therapy, every individual is going to benefit from therapy. And just think of therapy as like a second opinion on your life. I still think that some people think it's like something's wrong and it means we're going to break up, but it's going to get divorced.

Starting point is 00:26:18 No, it's really just like if you have a problem with your business, you're going to go to a business coach. If you have a toothache, you're going to go to your dentist. If your car breaks down, you're going to go to a, mechanic. If you're having problems in your relationship and communicating about intimacy or sex, you're going to go to a therapist. Our insurance covers it a lot of times. Even if not, you can find a sliding scale. I know you talk a lot about this in the show, but I just feel like for some of these really pressing issues, if your partner has shut down and usually it is fear, which let me remind everyone is false evidence appearing real, that is fear. And a lot of us have it that there's got to be

Starting point is 00:26:56 ways, if it doesn't happen to your conversation, that you can get some help. So you can get to place and move to the other side of the conversation where it gets fun. You know, you recently had a podcast episode that I thought is like so useful for a lot of couples that there's many couples that are out there that they're both attracted to each other, right? They want to desire each other. They both want to have a more regular sex cadence in their life and, you know, bring pleasure to the other person.

Starting point is 00:27:23 But then they have a breakdown when it comes to initiation. And you did a whole episode on this. I found that actually really helpful and I've sent it out to a few different people and things. Oh, cool. And I think it started off with this core idea that it's natural in a lot of relationships where not everybody, there's usually one, first of all, there's usually one person who's more comfortable with initiation. And there's usually a place and time inside of a relationship where that person who's

Starting point is 00:27:49 more comfortable with initiation, initiating sex, that they start to feel more resentful, that I'm always the person, right? Whether that's actually true or not true, I'm majority of the person who's initiating sex. What does that mean? Does my partner desire me? Do they not desire me? And that brings up a whole bunch of questions.

Starting point is 00:28:08 You even sort of raised your hand during the podcast and said that I actually am somebody myself who has been more of the receiver, right? What is it? What did you call it? Like there's an initiator and then is it? Yeah, I think there's the high desire partner and the low desire partner.

Starting point is 00:28:21 Right. That there's one. And the low desire partner has, all the power if you think about it. They're the one who's deciding, are we going to have sex? Are we not going to have sex? And if we're like shutting it down, the sex isn't happening. So usually it's the higher desire partner that is doing all of the initiating. So yeah, initiating is a huge topic because, yeah, it's kind of our gateway to sex. And so if we're not comfortable with it, you know, I just want to remind people that initiating is a skill set.

Starting point is 00:28:49 It is a practice. It is a skill set. I was very, I mean, the thing is, I am the expert. I I've been doing this a long time, but I wrote this book and I do my podcast all the time to help. I need to help too because it's not like it's just, think about it like your health. You never just get to a place where you achieve your peak health and your mental health and physical and then you're done. And then you can go off and learn to play golf or something. No, like it is an ongoing practice. So I have to learn.

Starting point is 00:29:15 I have to remember with my partner, I haven't initiated a while I'm going to make an effort. Because again, it's just, it's a skill set. We have to learn it. And what happens, why it gets so fraud, is because think about it, if you have one partner that's always initiating, that's always deciding what's going to happen. And that means that if you're the one, you're the lower desire partner or not initiating, then you're the one who's saying yes or saying no. So if you're rejecting your partner and saying no to them, it is a rejection. Even if it's because you were tired or it's been a long day with the kids or with work, they're still feeling not so great

Starting point is 00:29:48 about it. They're still worried that like, did I do something wrong? Am I not a trap? Are you not attracted to me anymore. So it's just part of that really healthy give and take in a relationship where I think it's, we have to all learn to be a participant in the relationship. And that comes down to learning how to initiate and consciously like thinking about it. We have to think about our sex life holistically. Like when, you know, again, there's so much around it. So learning to say, okay, I'm going to put it in my calendar.

Starting point is 00:30:18 I'm going to even ask my partner because maybe you don't even know how to initiate, right? let's say your whole life. And I have to say that I'm not usually the initiator. I did say that the podcast too. I'm not. And it's because maybe I was with more higher desire partners or being a woman to bring gender into this.

Starting point is 00:30:33 I think often my heart goes out to men because they have so much pressure, I think, typically in heterosexual relationships. Like you've got to know all the sex things. You have to make the move. You have to ask someone out. You have to make the money. You have to know, understand their bodies. You have to be hard and ready to go.

Starting point is 00:30:49 Like there's so much pressure. And I think for many, and I'm not saying there are women who initiate a lot. I'm just saying you're in our typical stereotype, typical relationship. We're like, okay, at least I just have to respond to something. But there's a lot of power and empowerment in saying, I'm going to learn what makes me want to initiate. And it can even be with your partner. Like what I love about the communication around sex is saying to your partner, I realize that I'm not always the one initiating.

Starting point is 00:31:15 But help me out here. What would be a really hot initiation for you? What would that look like? Because then I don't have to make it up. And my partner would say, like, oh, well, I would love if you just came in and grab me, or you started making out with me, or you dressed up in something that made you feel sexy, or you blocked out the entire night, you know, for a date night. Or I came home and you had candles lit and you had music, our favorite music playing.

Starting point is 00:31:43 It could look like however you want, but sometimes we just need a starting point. We just need a cue. We just like, so then you can go, okay. I'm going to light a candle when I come home. I'm going to light a candle and that's going to be a signal or I'm going to kiss my partner's neck, right? And then eventually we might have some more confidence to say like, okay, I know how to initiate now.

Starting point is 00:32:03 I know how to do it. I'm going to take responsibility for it, you know, because again, yeah, your partner might be feeling like some rejection. I don't think we realize it that the rejection builds up over time. And then your partner might say, like, I'm not going to keep initiating because you don't want sex. So this is where not talking about it creates all these stories. Right?

Starting point is 00:32:22 I mean, again, our thoughts are not the truth often. So our thoughts create, I know you talk a lot about this in your show too, our thoughts create stories and narratives that just are a great disservice to us. So let's just realize that maybe your partner might have some stories around your desire for them and like, the more you talk about it, you realize what they need and what you need to have satisfying sex. It's all there and it's all available. I hope you've been loving this compilation episode so far.

Starting point is 00:32:54 We've already gotten two practical tips on how to create intimacy and connection or our relationships. We can schedule sex, which again can be scheduling time to cuddle. It can be scheduling time to just be together, to hold each other together. And it can also be scheduling time for sex. We've also learned the importance of leaning towards someone and focusing on the positivity and the impact that makes on relationships and how the happiest, most long-term successful relationships, not that every relationship is meant to be a long-term relationship, but for those that wanted to be a long-term relationship, we've learned from doctors John and Julie Gottman that a huge

Starting point is 00:33:35 part of that is leaning towards each other instead of leaning away. And now we're going to be talking with psychotherapist, best-selling author, and podcast host Esther Perel, who's going to be talking to us about the need to be right and how this need to be right. Literally, we'll destroy our life and will destroy our intimate relationships. Where does the need to be right come from? And why is it so damaging? Let's listen in to Esther Perel. You know, I remember one of my teachers actually saying to me a sentence that has accompanied me in my work for decades now. And he said, it's not difficult to be right. But then you will be right and alone. The challenge of being right is to not discuss. connect to not sever the connection with the person with whom you're having the conversation

Starting point is 00:34:33 with so that you can hold multiple realities, multiple truths, multiple perspectives at the same time. And when you are close to someone, be your friend, your family member, your partner, and you see this is blue. And they tell you this is not blue. This is green. How can you even think that this would be blue. And you experience this as there is, there is no room here. It must be one or the other. This is what happened rather than this is how I remember what happened. Or this is my experience of what happened. A lot of talk in relationships is pseudo-factual talk. It's our subjective experience, but we present it like we know this is it. And therefore, if you have a different experience, it becomes an either-

Starting point is 00:35:25 Or one of us must be right and one of us must be wrong. And people have all these ways of splitting the difference to kind of say we can agree to disagree. But when people agree to disagree, they're not staying connected. The ability to connect is really this. The research says that if we are describing a contentious situation, you and me, and you tell me what you experience about it, and I don't agree with it, I can listen for about 10 seconds. and after that, I start to prepare my rebuttal.

Starting point is 00:35:57 So when I ask people to repeat what they have just heard that the other person just said to them, if they have to repeat something that they can't agree with, they can't repeat it. It's much more difficult, and 10 seconds is three sentences. And after that, they're lost. So this is how hard it is to enter the truth, the reality of another,

Starting point is 00:36:21 when it jars with our own. You know, we've done so many episodes on the brain on this podcast. We're trying to remind people that their brain isn't broken and how to understand it better so that they could take advantage of so many things that they're looking for in their life. And many past researchers have come on this podcast and said that our prefrontal cortex, our executive function of the brain, will shut down in the face of stress or a flight or fight response.

Starting point is 00:36:50 And in some way, it seems that when we can't fully listen or that part of our brain turns off, there's a momentary part of us that feels like we're about to be either attacked or we are being attacked. Do you have any thoughts on that? Yes, but I'm going to give it to you more in phenomenological language than in brain talk. Because what is my experience actually when I am attacked? here is this person that I usually or that I used to feel sees me, gets me, understands me. And now you're saying things that make me feel like you don't get me at all. And I feel completely lonely next to you.

Starting point is 00:37:36 And I feel completely disconnected from you. And I'm thinking, I can't take another moment of this. This is the phenomenology of what happens when the truths are butting heads. You know, you can do brain talk about that, but it doesn't really give you the actual experience of people. I want to shake you. I want to drill my truth into you is one response. I'll repeat it one more time, exactly the same as the time before. Why would this time succeed beats me.

Starting point is 00:38:06 But I'll say it once more just to see if I can get inside. You know, if I can get inside of you means if I can pour my heart, my feelings, my sadness, my disappointments inside of you so that you can get it and then let me know of that. It's really extremely rich, actually, what happens in those moments, you know, and it depends if we think that it is disconnect, you know, because there's conflict or it's simply that we have a very different view of the story. So when I meet you, it's easier when we just meet in the beginning. And I say, Drew, what did you think of this play? Do you think of this movie?

Starting point is 00:38:48 And you tell me, and I say, oh, I didn't see that at all. I saw something very different. But don't you think that this character was really terrible? And you say, no, I actually think that character was really terrible. And we are interested in each other because there's a certain distance between us still that allows me to listen to you and you to me without thinking, if he says so, what does that mean for me? How does that reflect back on me?

Starting point is 00:39:15 But after a few years or when we are in stress for all kinds of reasons of stress and you say, I didn't hear that at all. That's not what they said. And I'm like, how can you say that? I mean, this is exactly what he said. And on we go. And at that moment, you're right. We are in fight, flight mode. But flight, flight mode is actually very active. But it doesn't give you enough of the relational description. What's happening inside of me. and with you and between us, that is the relational narrative. And so I speak a bit of a different language on that. No, it's a beautiful language. And that's why so many people relate to the messaging that's there. For anybody who knows, and we can all relate to this, and catches themselves in that moment where they're more committed to the right than to being in connection or in love,

Starting point is 00:40:11 is there something? I love listening to your podcast. where should we begin? Because in those moments, you have couples actually reflect back upon each other. What did you say? What did you hear from what the person just said? And you'll call them out when you notice that there's a gap or really a not listening. Like you're saying, you know what, this time, really let's try.

Starting point is 00:40:29 Let's try. We're going to practice this skill. When we're not in the company of a therapist such as yourself and we are individually there with our partner and we catch our commitment to this need there, there's a moment of awareness, what's one thing that we can do to help us step out of that? So, you know, in, where should we begin? In this couple sessions, you see me help people to listen. But the listening is not just in order to hear what the other person say. It's our ability to enter the experience of the other person, even if my experience is very different.

Starting point is 00:41:13 I don't think that when I went upstairs to read my book, that I was leaving you stranded all alone downstairs. I just thought I went to read my book. How do I show you that I understand that in those moments you feel left out without having to agree that that's what I did to you? So that is the real challenge, right? How do I hold on to my experience while I still connect to yours? or how do I connect to your experience without feeling that then I am subservient to mine. That dance of differentiation in couples, that is the real struggle around being right or having the truth. It's the ability to see multiple truths.

Starting point is 00:41:59 Your experience of this behavior is really your experience of this behavior, but that doesn't mean that that's what I did. So what's one thing people can do when you're in that conversation, sometimes, you know, I'm going at it with my husband and all my sons of, you know, and I'm thinking, you know, ooh, it's so hard for me to hear them say this. And then I think, okay, reflective listening. Why? Just and everybody can do that, which is really to start with a very common technique, but it's very hard.

Starting point is 00:42:30 It's simple when you don't disagree. Somebody says you're beautiful, you're smart. I love spending time with you. You know, you're such a fun person to be with. You don't have a problem. saying what I'm hearing you say is that you think I'm really smart and you love spending time with me, flows very easily. But if you're saying, you abandoned me, you left me stranded there, you don't pay attention to me, you don't really care about whatever. And I have to repeat that.

Starting point is 00:42:54 And I don't see myself in anything that you've just said. That is really challenging. So what I'm hearing you say is that when I go to read my book, it leaves you feeling very left out. Is this it? do I get it? Yes. Tell me more. Well, because the last three times you went to read your book, you never came back down and you stayed there in your attic for three hours in a row.

Starting point is 00:43:19 And what am I supposed to do here? I thought we were going to do something together. It's Sunday. What I'm hearing you say is that I stayed very long. And I want to start to argue, you know, it wasn't three hours. I never stayed three hours in my attic. It only was one hour. But instead I have to say, it felt to you or it was three hours.

Starting point is 00:43:38 hours, you say it was three hours and that I completely let go of the plans that we were going to spend time together. And that ability to enter the view, the world, the inner world of the other and still think, I'm only repeating. That doesn't mean I agree or I accept. That is not my experience of the same thing. But I can enter your world for a moment. That is the exercise. I want to come back to the first question and this idea of needing to be right. You know, you say that when... Which one are you? Are you one of those?

Starting point is 00:44:15 The person who needs to be right? Yeah. Are you one who says, are you, actually, I could go with your question, but I have something I would love to describe about it. No, please, please, prompt, I'm willing, I'm an open book. I'm happy to jump in. No, because when I asked you, Are you a person who stands your ground?

Starting point is 00:44:37 Or are you a person who likes to be right or who needs to be right or who needs to be affirmed when you believe you are right? There are different variations here? Or are you a person who will, you'll submit. You'll basically say, okay, you know, it doesn't really matter. Or, you know, you surrender, you let go, you release it. It goes together with the fact that I think in many relationships, and this is really to your question about, who's right and how we deal. You will often find that there is one person

Starting point is 00:45:07 who is more afraid of losing the other and is more in touch with the fear of abandonment and one person who is more afraid with the fear of losing themselves and the fear of suffocation. And the person who is more afraid of losing themselves is often the person who also will hold ground when they think they're right.

Starting point is 00:45:30 The person who doesn't want to lose the other is more likely to just say whatever or okay or doesn't tell you what they think, what they feel, what they need, because you're going to decide anyway. And in order not to lose you, you should have what you want. I think I've been both of those people

Starting point is 00:45:49 at different times in my life. And I think sometimes you're with a partner that maybe one of them comes up. And I think there's another time with you're a partner where another aspect comes up. That's right. That's super important to say to all people that listen is that we are

Starting point is 00:46:05 part of, we are contextual. We're not just one thing. The relationship will make us be a certain way and we will make the relationship be a certain way. It's not just we are either this or that. Yes. And to see, especially

Starting point is 00:46:21 if you identify as one or the other, but to see the hypocrisy inside of you when it shows up to be able to notice it and to say, well, this is something that I typically don't like in somebody else, but I'm acting this way. Let me just own that and just appreciate that for a moment or the other side. And so I've played both sides of it.

Starting point is 00:46:42 And like many beautiful things in life, so much of our growth comes from suffering. And having suffered so much in the past with relationships, there was a deep need and desire to want to understand it and to learn from people like yourself and having with my wife right now. I got married in August of this year, I think since the last time I've seen you. Also having a partner that has the commitment along with me to want to go and explore these things and see our patterns and to talk about them together and to practice, practice being in love together.

Starting point is 00:47:17 So I've been on both sides of the spectrum. And having been on both sides of the spectrum, for this question I'm going to ask you, I often see that when we are stuck in the need to be right and I've been there myself, just so everybody understands, and I think a lot of people can relate. On the surface, when we fight with our partner, it looks like something new each time. Every time we fight, it looks like something new.

Starting point is 00:47:44 It's a new topic. Or if there are themes, it could be how that theme plays out, like cleanliness or whatever it might be. You know, we often see it as like, we're fighting about new topics each time. But I've heard you say that really it's not so much the thing that we're fighting about. If we go deeper, it's how we fight and how we communicate about those topics.

Starting point is 00:48:10 In fact, there's often these core pillars that all fights end up coming back to. Can you talk about what those pillars are? I've heard you talk about three of them, three of the core pillars, and why they continue to show up in our relationship, even though it looks like we're fighting about something new. Right. No, you don't. Most people basically fight over the same thing that they discovered on the two of their relationship. Because, but you, and that is the big seduction is to get seduced by thinking that it's, it's the money or it's the cleanliness or it's the in-laws or it's the children. It's not. It's not the topic. So what is it? And this is really from the research of Howard Markman. This is not my original work at all. And he has. more than three, but they're three that I like to highlight. And so the first thing he says is that

Starting point is 00:49:06 the underlying themes, what are people really fighting about when they're fighting about this? And you can look at this with your wife, you know, take three topics that you fight about and then tell me, do you fight about power and control? As in, who makes the decisions, whose priorities matter more? Who has to relinquish? That's the way. what I was looking for. Who relinquishes to the other? Is it about power and control? So it's not who decided what we do with the laundry. It's the fact that there is a perception that there's one person who always makes those decisions and has the power to impose it on the other person. Because you will see the same thing will be said for the laundry and for the money and for the

Starting point is 00:49:53 children and so forth. Number two, are you fighting about care and closeness as in trust? Can I count on you? Do you think about me when you make a decision? Am I part of the picture? Do you have my back? That's the care and the closeness. And number three, do you fight over respect and recognition? Meaning you don't value me.

Starting point is 00:50:19 You don't value my opinion. I don't feel recognized, seen, honored, you know, taken into in that sense. And those are basically the three primary, underlying dynamics that people really fight about when they are fighting about what they think are their preferred topics. Here's the thing I learned in my adult relationships. Creating and maintaining connection and intimacy doesn't just happen automatically. It's not meant to happen automatically.

Starting point is 00:50:53 It's actually meant to be a little bit of work. Actually, I don't know if it's meant to be work, but here's what I've seen with all the people around me that have been together and have deep connected relationships. And I know both partners on both sides, it's clear they both put in the work. My hope is that today's episode offered actionable steps that you can take to cultivate and strengthen your relationship in your own life and motivate you a little bit to put in that work with your partner because the end result, the rewards that come from investing in your relationship are fantastic.

Starting point is 00:51:24 Being on the same page. Feeling more alive in life. Feeling more creative and more excited for all your other goals and dreams in life. That's what's available to us when we step. into connection in our intimate relationships. And if you enjoyed today's compilation episode, I have a tiny, tiny favor. Could you copy the link and text it to one or two friends who you think would enjoy this advice that if you had an aha moment, give them an aha moment too by sending them this episode. Who knows how it could change the trajectory of their life? And if you've

Starting point is 00:51:54 enjoyed any of these episodes and want to listen to the full episode, you can find the full-length versions of the conversations you heard today in the show notes below. As always, thank you so much for tuning in. I'll see you later on this week on the Drew Prode Show with a brand new episode.

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