Dhru Purohit Show - Why You Should Say No More Often: Step By Step Tips on Living A Regret Free Life with Bronnie Ware

Episode Date: October 22, 2025

This episode is brought to you by BiOptimizers, Masa Chips, and Ollie. Life has a way of teaching us what truly matters, but often, those lessons come too late. In this episode, we explore the timeless wisdom that comes from facing the end of life and reflecting on what’s most important. Today on The Dhru Purohit Show, Dhru sits down with Bronnie Ware to discuss the top five regrets of the dying. Bronnie shares powerful lessons she learned from patients on their deathbeds during her years as a palliative care nurse. She talks about why it’s so difficult for many people to say no, how deeply ingrained people-pleasing can become in our identities, and the freedom that comes from slowing down in a world that glorifies constant hustle. Bronnie also explores how failing to express yourself can keep you from living the life you truly want.  Bronnie Ware, author of the international bestselling memoir The Top Five Regrets of the Dying (published in 32 languages), is also a TEDx speaker who has been featured in interviews with The Wall Street Journal, ABC Radio National, Dr. Wayne Dyer, The Guardian, Marie Forleo, The Sunday Times, Lewis Howes, Harvard Business Review, and numerous other publications worldwide. Based in Australia, she advocates for simplicity and the importance of creating space to breathe, encouraging others to find courage, follow their hearts, and trust that life will provide the shortcuts. In this episode, Dhru and Bronnie dive into:  Why it’s so difficult to say no (1:53) Permission to live a life true to yourself (6:37) Finding the courage to slow down in our modern world (10:30) Bronnie’s journey and how she chose to follow her passion (19:30) Facing the pain of dying and making the most of life (24:34) Working hard but missing out on truly living (30:00) Dhru’s Man Morning community (36:11) The need for control vs. the courage to let go (38:33) Divine love as the greater intelligence guiding our lives (40:50) Lessons from Bronnie’s time with people nearing death (46:20) The regret of not expressing your true feelings (48:45) Losing touch with friends and community (59:15) Permission to be happy and feel joy (1:08:54) Learning through mistakes and cultivating self-compassion (1:15:38) Final thoughts and takeaways (1:19:16) Also mentioned in this episode: The Top Five Regrets of the Dying For more on Bronnie, follow her on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or visit her Website. This episode is brought to you by BiOptimizers, Masa Chips, and Ollie. Go to bioptimizers.com/dhru now and enter promo code DHRU to get 30% off any order of Magenesium Breakthrough and find out this month’s gift with purchase. Ready to enjoy my favorite chips made with just three clean ingredients? Head to masachips.com/DHRU and use code DHRU for 25% off your first order of Masa.    Want to give your dog the best in clean eating? Take the online quiz and introduce Ollie to your pet. Right now, Ollie is offering 60% off your first box of meals when you subscribe today! Just head to Ollie.com, use the code DHRU, and you’ll get 60% off your first box of meals in your subscription. Sign up for Dhru’s Try This Newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today, I'm talking with brawny Ware, who spent years as a palliative care nurse, sitting at the bedside of people in their final days and moments, listening and hearing them as they shared their deepest life regrets. Those raw and honest conversations led to her groundbreaking book, The Top Five Regrets of the Dying, which was an international bestseller and inspired millions around the world to rethink what truly matters before it's to, late. Her message is simple, but life-changing, a regret-free life, which is something that I want, and I know you want that too, isn't about doing more or having some major bucketless. It's about

choosing to live courageously and honoring who you are. And by the way, that's easier said than done. And honestly, we all need a little help living this practically in our lives, which is what today's interview is about. So to kick us off for today's interview, I asked Brony, one of the most burning questions that I had, and I know you have it too, which is how do we get better at stepping into the power of saying no? I just find that if you don't say no, then you're running on empty too much. And one of the things that I've learned for my own well-being, for my happiness and health, is that space is medicine. And so leaving space is really essential for me to function at my best in the world as a mom, as a professional person. One of the things I've learned by saying no is that

life rewards courage. And so sometimes you can say no, am I doing the right thing here, saying no to an opportunity that may have opened certain doors for me, but just felt a bit hard at the moment or a bit too much for me at the moment. And what I've found is if I have the courage to tune into that in myself and say no because it just doesn't feel right at the time, that life often provides shortcuts for me. And so the opportunities I may have sensed that person, meeting that person may have led to, they'll come into my life through another way. I just think that no, that mastering no without guilt, we need to say that, Mastering no without guilt is a very deep form of self-care and self-kindness

because if you can't say no without guilt, then you're just, you're going to end up burning out and running on empty. For eight years, you sat at the bedside as a palliative care nurse, sitting with people who were in their final weeks of life, and you witnessed so many things that came up, not just about death, but about living, that ultimately led to your pivotal work, the five regrets of the dying. Why is it so difficult for them? And many of the people that are listening today, it's been difficult for me. Why is so difficult to have the courage to say no and actually step into what we really might want to do in life? Why is it so difficult? Well, we all want to feel liked, loved,

accepted and not everyone wants to hear no. And so there's always a chance that in being completely honest, you're going to offend people and it's not really something any of us set out to do. And we can offend people without even meaning to, without even saying no. But if we're not honest with ourselves, well, then we're living for them anyway. And we can never control other people. people's reactions. So for those people on their deathbeds and for myself witnessing that, learning to say no has become a superpower because I saw the anguish of their regrets. And this is pure heartache in getting to the end of your life and realizing you could have done it differently. And so setting strong boundaries is just something that is going to help you

live a better life. And in the grand scale of things, if you want to reach your potential, and your potential will always call you to serve humanity in one way or another, or serve the world, whether that's animals or the earth, whatever, it will call you to serve in some way that is altruistic, that the heart is involved. And so, though you may offend one or two people by saying no and having strong boundaries, it's also leaving space for you to actually focus on what your life's work is. And your life's work doesn't have to be public. It can just be you've got to master how to be a happy person so that your children give themselves permission to be happy. There's no end to what the possibilities are. But it's just all part of the process.

If we are going to show up as our best selves or even to try to discover our best selves, then we have to take the risk of offending people. And a big part of that is that we don't want to be disliked. But we're all going to die. And once you face that fact and realize how sacred time is and that the person you're worried about offending, well, they're going to die and I'm going to die, you're going to die. you realize how sacred your time is and that also means how precious your energy is.

And so we have to take those risks and accept that we can, unless we want to live a life depleted and spend it trying to please people, trying to please everyone, we're never going to. We really just need to keep tuning into where our heart's guiding us and have the courage to set those boundaries so that we can do that work. There's a quote that I want to share with you in the audience. It's your work, so you would know it very well. And that quote is, so much regret comes from believing that we have more time than we did. The truth is, none of us knows how much time we have left.

Is there a story of a patient that comes to mind as we're talking right now and thinking about being surprised by the suddenness of time and the power of not stepping into our ability to say no? One of my patients comes to mind, but I'm not sure that she was the one that was linked with that quote from my book because I did write about a lot of patience, but Grace was one of my favorite patients and she looked after her husband and she was a housewife, a mom, and from a generation that never left the marriage because what would the neighbors think? and she, her adult children described their father as a tyrant, and she had stayed with him.

All she'd ever wanted to do was simple things like a bus tour around Australia, and she didn't go. He didn't want to go, and he ended up going into a nursing home and becoming ill, going into a nursing home. So she toddled off down to the travel agent and picked up a brochure. This is before the internet days. or the internet was coming in, but before it was prolific. And she went off to the travel agent and picked up a bus tour brochure and started browsing through it. But within two weeks of him going into the nursing home, she started feeling ill. And within a short time after that, she was diagnosed with stage four terminal lung cancer.

And she'd never smoked. He was a smoker. And I think she only left the house one more time, and that was to the doctors. and it was a really fast demise, and I was called in as her carer. And so she actually said to me at one point, holding, squeezing my hand, she was only a little tiny woman, a darling woman who I still hold in my heart. And she was squeezing my hand, and she said to me, promise me, Bronie, promise this dying woman that you will always live a life true to yourself, not the life expected of you.

And she was crying and I was crying because we knew she was getting towards the end. And I did. Through my tears, I said, I do promise you, Grace. I absolutely promise you. But in that moment I also was making a promise to myself. And that is part of what gives me the courage to say no, because if you're going to live a life true to yourself, not the life others expect of you,

then you have to have those strong boundaries and you have to say no, even if you can say it in the most kind way possible, you have to just be straight with people and not beat around the bush. Why is it so heartbreaking, but also heart opening, for people to hear a story like that? Well, it's heartbreaking because it's real and it's relatable, but it's heart opening because it gives us permission because we're facing the fact that, yes, we are going to die

and that having regrets on the deathbed is, is the worst feeling in the world because it's too late to make changes and we still have the power to make changes now. So that's heart opening and becomes hopeful as well because if we exercise the courage and make courage our superpower, then there's absolutely no reason to have regrets. And so it's that blend of both. It's real and it is heartbreaking, but it can also be used as a tool for living. One of the reasons I love your Instagram is that you take great photos of your garden and you attach these powerful quotes, which are reminders about the joy and the power

of stepping into nature, especially, and slowing down. And one of the things that I feel, as I'm sure many people on the podcast feel, is that I think about these themes. I've read your book. I come across stories like this. and yet still the busyness of life can have us forget what's really important. Can you talk a little about modern life and why we have to make sure to work hard to step into the courage to slow down?

So modern life is completely dysfunctional and we all know that. We can see, I mean, you know through your work, Drew, that chronic illness is through the roof and autoimmune diseases are through the roof, and I live with one. So it's, you know, I've learned the hard way that I have to slow down. But it's more about realizing the sacredness of our time. And when you start tuning into that and you think about what would be good for you or what you'd really like to do if you're completely honest with yourself and you're not striving all the time to prove yourself in the world

or to pay the bills, and we all have bills to pay. I'm a single mum, I get it. When you tune into yourself, you just realize that something feels off, that it just doesn't feel like how life should be, that it doesn't, life shouldn't be that busy. And I get it. I mean, I now live off-grid in the wilderness, and I live, I'm very much into slow living.

But I also get it that when I'm working on a project, I can absolutely lose myself in it and have to stop and check in and think, oh, okay, I need to get outside and, you know, go for a walk or whatever. But we're not only a part of nature, we are nature. And so our bodies are designed for the cycles and for the rest periods and for the active, proactive times and for the times of deep rest, not just sleep, but depressed. And so when we give you. ourselves permission to do that. We're always taking risks. We're always taking a financial

risk of potential lost opportunities, but we're also taking a risk of failure and how we're going to look in the eyes of others. But when you face the fact that you're going to die, like truly face the fact that you're going to die, and realizing the sacredness of your time, you let go of what other people think of you. And with that comes great freedom. the most incredible freedom because you then live, you know you're going to offend people, you know you're going to be misunderstood, you know people are going to write things about you or say things about you that are so much about them, not about you, and so off the mark of who you are. And it's what I was saying before, unless you want to run yourself ragged caring about

those things, then if you give yourself permission to actually take those risks and live with in a space of enoughness rather than, and it doesn't mean you're restricting your growth. But when you get to a point where you think, actually, I have enough in life or this is enough, this is what I'm aiming for, then it just frees you up. It just gives you so much more permission and it allows time to be in nature. It allows time to let your body rest when it needs deep rest, to step away offline for a while, it allows all of those things. But it doesn't mean that you're restricting your growth, because getting to that point where you give yourself permission to do that

is the real work, is the growth. And it's like I said earlier, life also provides shortcuts. So I find now that so often the things that I ask life for come to me with so much more ease than if I was trying to control every step of it or I was worried how I, if I was coming at it from a place of fear or a place of how I would look in the eyes of others. And it is that wanting to belong and wanting to be accepted. I mean, that's just an innate part of this to, to need to belong. But there's also where you find the people you belong with when you take those risks. and so much of our busy life

with the way we live in society now really is driven by how we appear in the eyes of others, how we want to appear in the eyes of others. It's so tough because part of it is also understanding that as much as we might want to blame society, we're part of society, and being part of society means that many of us have developed an addiction to being busy.

And sometimes that addiction is a way to mask us stepping into the unknown. What if I actually stepped into a life going to the lesson that Grace was sharing with you, your patient Grace, what if I actually had the courage, which is the first regret to live a life true to myself and not the life that others expect of me? That's scary, the unknown.

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That's M-A-S-A-C-H-I-P-S dot com slash Drew, D-H-R-U, and use the code Drew for 25% off your first order. One of the things to find out what that is, is that you've got to create the space and busyness distracts from that. And so you sort of might think, yeah, this is a life I'd like, a certain life is the life you'd like. But to truly feel into it and feel what you'd have to give up to do that

and what you'd have to change, It is terrifying. You know, so many of us come in with the narratives that we were brought up in. If you're brought up in a household, you might have a parent or a teacher that's overly critical. So you're scared about doing something different. You might have seen your mom tell your uncle that you have to take the path that's more safe.

And if you would have done that, then you wouldn't have struggled as much financially, whatever. we've all experienced these different things. Give us a little snapshot of where you were, having just accepted this role as a nurse, wanting to take on this job because you were looking for a position from what I understand that would give you a little bit less of that sort of corporate environment

and allow you to be more free and be who you wanted to be. Give us a snapshot into the headspace of where your life was and more importantly, or just as important, what you started to think about after Grace has had squeezed your hands and shared those pivotal messages with you. My life was a mess. Let's be real here. It was a mess.

And I was living alive, others expected of me. And I was trying to break free of that. And I initially went into palliative care, yes, because I'd been in the banking industry. and I didn't want to be in the corporate world anymore. I didn't want to wear high heels and stockings. That was a big part of the decision. And I wanted to work with heart.

I wanted somewhere where I could just be myself. And that is when I sort of put that prayer out there, that's where life landed me is in palliative care with no qualifications, no training or anything. But I had grown up being heavily criticised and my father was a very dominant figure and he's now passed away about 10 years ago, but he was a black sheep in his family. I was a black sheep in mine, so I triggered all of his unheeled wounds.

And so it was a tough, it was a really tough and painful upbringing. It was also a very tough time trying to break free of those expectations. And as well as being an accountant, my dad was also a musician, a singer-songwriter. And so I was working and banking and then trying to make it as a singer. Oh, he wasn't a singer-songwriter. He was a guitarist, sorry, a guitarist and a radio announcer. And I was trying to make it as a singer-songwriter. And he was just knocking me down every chance he could.

And I won't even repeat some of the stuff he used to say. And I just kept showing up on stage on the nights when I wasn't working and singing these songs and driving there with. dread and driving home crying, just trying to find a way to get my message heard and to find acceptance, I guess, within the family unit. And so then once Grace said that to me, which ended up being a regret that I heard repeatedly, all of these regrets were, but she was the first one to say it and she said it was such conviction that it really became a part of my path.

And then I realized just how much I was living the life that was expected of me to stay in a sensible job and not go down the creative path, which creativity is a massive expression of who I am these days. It's what drives me and what brings me joy. So, yeah, things were in a hard place. But I was, and I think it needs to be said that if you are going to be living a life true to yourself, it doesn't. does take a massive amount of not just risk but pain because even if the old belief systems don't necessarily serve you, they're comfortable and you know them and they fit you. And so to start telling yourself a new story and start living a new story means breaking free of all of that conditioning that like I said may not be good for you but gave you a sense of belonging. And so it

it is horrific how painful it can be to change your direction. But at the same time, if we can be pulled forward, well, life keeps nudging us forward anyway. And we don't always pull ourselves forward by the thought of peace or joy. We get pushed forward by avoiding pain. Pain is a very good catalyst for change. And so when the pain becomes too much, then we do make the changes. But what we need to remember is that on the other side of that pain is incredible freedom of self to be able to live as who you are, not caring about how you're perceived, knowing that as long

as you've got a good heart and you're giving life your best, then that's enough. Then that's absolutely enough. You're so right that it's the pain or the fear of pain that often keeps us from stepping into the courage that so many of us have and have demonstrated in our life. I don't think there would be one person listening today that if they really went in detail throughout different key moments of their life, they've displayed courage before everybody has at some point in time. So we all have this innate courage, but it's pain that keeps us away from that courage.

But you talk about something really beautiful, which is that it's stepping into the pain of knowing that one day, we won't be here anymore, and we don't know when that day is, as painful as that is, that pain can help us overcome the short-term pain. We can swap out the long-term initial sort of pain of like, it's painful to think about living in the future and living with regret.

In fact, some traditions use that pain as part of their meditation practice, like the Buddhist tradition. There's actually death meditations where you imagine yourself dying or sitting on your death bed, maybe older or sick or whatever version it might be. And it's reflecting and meditating on that death and stepping into that pain that actually creates a sense of joy and freedom. And in that way, this is a little bit of a taste of some of what you got when you were sitting there with grace and so many other patients that were there. It's this reminder of how precious and short life is and how much pain we would have long term if we didn't do something right now.

Yeah. Oh, we can't avoid the learning at some point, even if it's on our deathbed. And by then it's even worse because we know we could have done something about it. And so it's very easy to think that we'll all live to old age. And ideally, you know, that would be great. But it doesn't, life doesn't work like that. And so if we said to everyone here today listening to our conversation that we've all got one month to live, I can guarantee we would spend the next month doing very different things and what we would

if we were just blaze and thinking, oh yeah, I've got another 10, I've got another 50 years, however many years. But the thing is, there may be someone listening today who's just had an awful, diagnosis and of a terminal illness. Now that person may heal that illness and outlive all of us, or someone who's in perfect health may go out tomorrow and something, you know, have a car crash or something happens. We don't know. And that's the thing. We can sort of do everything we can to live as full as we can. And obviously having our health is a freedom while we're a but we still don't know where our exit is.

And so if you can live as fully as you can while you're alive, then you've led a good life. And so it may be that some of us will die in the next month. It may be that some of us will live past 100, but we don't know which straw we're going to pick. And it's already, yeah, it's, so the best we can do is just to love as much as we can and to live as much as we can. I want to go back to your story

because I think it would be very helpful. Even though the people who are listening today have their own story and everybody's story is unique, there are themes that run throughout all of our lives. You mentioned that you had an overly critical father who was the black sheep in his own family. Just curious before I get into my question, was he critical of you because you weren't creative enough

and that you weren't taking risks? Or was he critical for other reasons? Like, was he upset? that you were a banker, or did he want you to go in a different direction? Like, what was he upset about? He was critical because I was taking risks in areas that he didn't. So he was a musician. He gave it up to be, well, he was an accountant at the same time,

but he gave up his music, and that was his happiest place. And he also wanted to travel Australia. He wanted to do so many things. and I was this, you know, free-floating kid just like, oh, I might live here now, I might live here, or a young adult, and I might live here now, I might try there. And so I was going to all these places unconsciously that he had wanted to do. So I was basically living the life that he had wanted but didn't have the courage to. And that's what triggered him. And so he did everything he could to knock me down and to tell me stuff like, you're just a dreamer,

You'll never amount to anything, you know, and a lot, far, far worse than that. But those sort of things were on repeat. And I'd think, well, yeah, I'm a dreamer, but at least I've got the guts to go for the dreams. You know, it's how sad life would be if you didn't have, didn't have the guts to go for your dreams. And then I see where his life was and he was bitter and miserable. So partly you were stepping into some aspects of living out a life that you wanted to. You chose a different career. You were traveling to different areas.

You were moving around a little bit and exploring on your way to figuring out things. What was the insight that you had after speaking with, especially grace and making that commitment to her, that you were going to be living a life that was truer to you? What did that look like practically then of, hey, here's my next step in that process, or here's my next step and at least thinking about that process? Well, I knew it had to be creative. I knew I had to follow creative projects, but I still also held on to other jobs to support that for quite a long time. But those jobs no longer had to be everything to me because they were just supporting the dream.

And so I actually did go back to banking as a temp for a while to support my photographic dreams and then what became my songwriting dreams and then that became my writing. dreams and now I also do a vlog which is sort of blending the two of photography and writing and storytelling. But I think that's really what it looked like. I just knew that I couldn't live a life in a Monday to Friday, 9 to 5 existence under fluorescent lights in an office where I didn't get fresh air. I just, yeah, I just knew that I couldn't work in that world anymore, that I had to have more freedom in my time. That was a really big part of it.

There had to be freedom in my time. And I really just wanted to be my own boss by then. By the time I left palliative care, I just thought, no, I've just got to work for myself. And so it took a long time, but I got there. You know, one of the other regrets, moving on to number two, that you regularly heard from individuals that you were sitting with, who only had weeks,

sometimes, maybe days left to live, was the regret of wishing that they hadn't worked so hard. I wish I hadn't worked so hard. Putting yourself in their shoes, which obviously you were sitting right next to them, when you think about some of the narratives or stories that led people to work harder than what they had wished and sacrifice so many things, what were the common stories, narratives, things that were out? there that were keeping them living this life that they didn't want to live when it came to working so hard. Today's episode is brought to you by Ali. You know, dogs aren't just pets, their family. And just like you're mindful of what goes into your own body and your loved ones, your dog deserves

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And so even though they felt they had no choice, that there were choices in there where they could have simplified their life, and I witnessed the son of one of my patients do that and to move into a regional area, and he turned into a much happier person. So sometimes, often, it was financial because people just felt they had to earn that level of money. But I, you know, I could earn more money than I do, but I've made a choice to live with enoughness. And so that, you know, gives me more time rather than chasing the dollar the whole time. But it also came down to, with people working too hard, it also came down often to their identity was wrapped up in their work. And so they didn't want to be seen as a

a failure by leaving some highly respected position. They didn't know who they were without that identity and that scared them. Yeah, the identity that's given through work can really, I mean, it can validate people, certainly, and it can give people a lot of confidence, but it can also restrict them from joy, from knowing how they're those existing skills could support them in a different life. And I think one of the things I've really learned through life, through my patients, but also through my own life, is that no skill is ever wasted. And so even if we feel like for me, I was in banking and I could sort of think, well, why is that relevant now? And I think a big part of my success is that I have my act together

with my office work. You know, I can manage, manage an office well. And I can manage. And I I'm efficient in that way. And I got those skills through banking. So I also think that if people dare to take the risk and change direction, the skills they've learned along the way may not support them in the most obvious way in their next role, but it will support them in their life in some other way. No skill is ever wasted. And so by working too hard and being trapped because of identity,

is a safe option, but it may not be the one that brings the most happiness. And while we can't be happy all the time, we can be happier than we often allow ourselves. You know, every Thursday morning, I have a men's group that goes on a walk together, and we may not make it 52 weeks out of the year because some people are traveling. But any given year, we meet probably at least 35, 37 weeks, at least some group of people, whoever's in town. And it happens to be that a lot of the guys are entrepreneurs. They've started different companies like myself.

And one of the regular topics that comes up is the topic of how so much time is wasted, overthinking, over deliberating. Even a small example is when you know that a position is not the right fit for a team member, it's not just not a right fit for your company, but it's not a right fit for them. so many my friends say that they labored on the idea. One of the biggest regrets that they have in their first business is you overlay labor on the idea of telling the person and having an honest conversation in a very transparent way of, hey, this just doesn't seem like the role for you and it's also not the right role for the company.

And it would be unfair not to tell you because we'd be holding you back and let's figure out the right way to transition out this role. And the reason I bring this up is that in that same way, so many of the things that come up as sort of regrets in business is overspending time thinking about things that just didn't need to be thought about too much and wasting time deliberating. And when I thought about this idea of work and this regret that some people have, which is I wish I hadn't worked so hard, it's also the mental energy that's given to worrying unnecessarily about things when we take

our work home with us instead of just addressing them head on and not carrying the emotional weight with us all day long or all weekend long. You know, we've all been in that situation where you want to be present with your family, but this thing is going on in the back of your head, but it doesn't need to. If we would just take the courageous thing, courageous action of dealing with something that might be scary, but at least we've dealt with it and it's not on our mind anymore. That was one of the things that came up for me when it came to that, I wish I hadn't worked so hard regret. If you're a good person, you don't want to hurt the other person.

So you are caring about how you're going to deliver it, but you're right. You're holding them back and you're holding your company back if you don't have that honest conversation. But sometimes it can also be controlled that we spend a lot of time deliberating over things because if we can control it, then we feel safe. Whereas if we surrender and let it go, like go home for the weekend and not think about it, even though it will make us a lot more present with our family or where, you know, going for a walk in the bush or whatever, it's still, like, it's freedom. If we can let it go for that time, say for the weekend, even though we might think,

oh yeah, but I've still got to deal with it, I've got to go in on Monday and I've got to have my answer and I've got to deal with it. What I have found is when I've had the courage to let things go and just surrender it, the answer I need will come when I'm off on a bushwalk or it will come when I'm out doing something, not even thinking about it or just hanging out in the kitchen or anything. And so sometimes that's how life gives us the shortcuts, is once we have the courage to let go of the control,

which is control is always driven by fear. And if we can let go of control, if it's driven by that, then life can sort of breathe a sigh of relief and say, oh, thank goodness, I can help them now. You shared a super powerful reminder on this topic in one of your videos, and there was a quote attached with it, and the quote said, don't hold on too tightly. If you do, you're blocking amazing things waiting to fill that new space.

Well, it's true. And I'm saying that from experience, that the more I've got out of my own way by letting go and not controlling things, the more life has just shown me how creative it is and how there's so many solutions have landed in my lap in a way that my human mind could never have conceived. But when it's landed, it's like, oh, my gosh, that is exactly what I need right now, yeah.

You can say pass on this question, but I just would love to ask you since you're here. what do you think that greater intelligence is when we have these things? You know, we can look back on our life and you can see, wow, banking played a role in this. And then, you know, me driving to the local farmers market or shops and selling my photographs with inspirational photos. You know, that played into my creativity and disconnected with this. You know, what is that in your beliefs? And again, you can hit say pass.

What is that greater intelligence that is ushering us along and kind of constantly conspiring for our greater good? I just think it's divine love and it's always in us. It's where we're from. It's where we return to. I grew up in a very heavily religious upbringing, religious schools. I had an aunt who was a priest, an uncle who was a priest on my dad's side, an aunt who was a nun on my mum's side. I had the head nun at my school asked me, would I join the order? So, you know, it was all, God was all there.

And for a long time, I couldn't use the word God because I couldn't disassociate it from the trauma of that time, of how that religion affected me. And so I then stepped into the universe, using the word the universe, but it felt a little bit woo-woo to me. And even though the universe is quite, like God is quite woo-woo. And then, of course, I did a lot of healing on the Buddhist path. So then it was Dharma. But I've just found now that life is the term that works best for me. And for anyone listening, it can be put into any of those other words or, or whatever word works for anyone. But in my belief, especially having seen people die and

sometimes go out with a look of immense bliss and recognition that they're going to somewhere or back to somewhere. That has really helped me see that, yeah, that it's, there's so much more to life. And I've also done some great healing through psychedelics as well, which left. me feeling more loved and more belonging to all of life, to all of, all of life, to every human on earth, to every animal, every plant. So I just think it's divine love. I mean, it's a big question and it's a big answer. And to try and simplify that into human language is a challenge, and it's probably almost impossible. But for the benefit of this conversation, I just think it is divine love and what it's trying to do for all of us is to teach us connection and to teach us

how to allow ourselves joy, to allow ourselves to live a happy life. And when you look at the bliss of children compared to the lack of bliss in adults, where obviously needing that support. You know, one of my most popular podcast when this podcast first started was with Dr. Bruce Grayson. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this work, but he is an individual from the University of Virginia

who has devoted his life's work to studying near-death experiences. And one of the things that he talked about and he really approaches it as a medical doctor and also a researcher trying to explore this phenomenon that we know through surveys, accounts, all sorts of things, anybody who's been through a near-death experience and these documented near-death experiences, he's put

them together in his books and his work, we know that it's something that fundamentally shifts how you view all life, all existence. And at the end of the interview, I asked him, You know, not too dissimilar of a question that I asked you. And he said, you know, I'm a doctor and I'm a researcher. So it's not my place to propose what's out there. But I can tell you that when you study this space, when you hear these accounts, and you understand there's so much that science can't explain in how the world works, that's enough to know that maybe there's something greater than just this physical world

that we all see in front of us. And sometimes you don't have the words for it, but you know that it's out there. And that in itself, you don't have to have a near-death experience for it to change you. Just understanding these stories is enough for you to step into that space.

And I think about his work often when I think about your work, because you being with so many of these individuals who are on the stepping stones of transitioning from this physical world to somewhere else. In a way, that was also a byproduct of you having secondhand these near-death experiences combined with the philosophy that when people are close to the end, they want to tell

their secrets. They want to tell their regrets to somebody who would listen, and you were that person that was there for people listening to them. Yeah, I think at the end, there's just not the energy. for small talk or nonsense. I think, and also the role of a carer, especially I was a carer for 12-hour shifts, 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. 6 days a week.

And there's not much going on physically. By then it's mostly bed baths. You know, they can't get to the shower. They might get to the shower or toilet with assistance. So that leaves a lot of space because the physical life can really take up a lot of time and distraction. And so we just, I don't know if it was just my nature or we were just blessed with the

circumstances of me just sitting there keeping them company. But I did find that the conversations were so raw and open in a very short time. And I think also that one of the greatest gifts we can ever give to anyone is to master the art of listening, deep listening. I think it's one of the most underrated. skills in the human world. And so a lot of us go through life without someone, without being able to just speak uninterrupted. And so for dying people, they had a lot to say, and I'm there 12 hours. I had nothing to prove to them. And so while they did get to know me a little bit because

I answered their questions, mostly it was just them sharing their reflections. And I got to sit and hear that and watch my own life transform. But, you know, it was just, I think it is that that there's just life is pure, it can be very pure at the end in those last weeks if the person feels safe and heard and if the circumstances, the physical circumstances are right, like if they're comfortable and they looked after. Well, in that environment that you helped create by being a listener, being a witness, being somebody to let people know that their life mattered in this moment, you're here with them, you're paying attention to them. One of the things that was shared with you was regret number three, which was, I wish I had the courage to express my feelings,

which is obviously what some of these individuals were doing with you then. Are there any stories that come to mind that are on that regret of I wish I had the courage to express my feelings? Yeah, sure. That was actually the regret that I most resonated with because for me, growing up, silence had become my safety net. And so I absolutely related when Joseph, especially when he first told that story. So he was in his 90s, which a lot of my patients weren't, but he was in his 90s. And his family had decided not to tell him. He was dying. And he knew he. He was. He knew he. He was. He was. He was. He was dying. And he knew he. He he was dying, but they didn't want to deal with it. Admittedly, they'd come from a horrific background with a lot of deaths, so they probably didn't want to be speaking about death any more than they had to, but he was dying, and his wife was coming in with enormous meals, and she's like, come on, Joseph, you'll get better soon, eat up, you'll get better soon,

and at that stage I think he was down to like half a tub of yogurt a day. He was not eating anything at these big meals. And I spoke to his family about it, and I said, don't you think he should know? And they said, oh, no, no, let's just keep him loved and looked after till the end. He doesn't need to know. And then one day he said to me, I was massaging his feet, which I did a lot of, just because why not? And he just said to me, I am dying, Bronny, aren't I? And I just looked at them and nodded and said, yes, Joseph, you are.

And anyway, the conversation developed from there, and he said he knew his family knew. And I said, did he want me to sort of be a medium in between? So, you know, just to make it less awkward. And he said, no, no, they don't, let's not talk about it with them. And so he talked about it a lot with me. But he said that the communication, it was too late to open the communication, channel between them. And so he was dying and not able to acknowledge that with the people closest to him because he couldn't express his feelings and they couldn't either. And that was one of the

most tragic circumstances I witnessed because he was so lonely. He was so lonely within the family who was talking to me who'd been a stranger a couple of months earlier. and sharing all this really deep philosophical reflection with me, but unable to share it with his family. And that's a really lonely place to be when you're dying. You mentioned it was one of the regrets that most resonated with you. What were some of the things that you were thinking about in your life then? You shared how silence, especially growing up in a super critical household,

it's easier to be silent and kind of be on your own than it is to have to have. to face expression and feel like people are berating you for things. But at that time, what were you thinking about in terms of things that you wanted to express more with the people around you? Well, I decided then that I had to start setting clearer boundaries with my family that, and it wasn't all my family, but it was enough of them, that the jokes that they had made about me and the whole family laughed at all the time. And like, so, you know, I grew up on a sheep farm and I became a vegetarian. And so they just always call me Greenpeace. And, you know,

someone said, oh, where's Greenpeace? Or what's Greenpeace doing now? And half the family, and most of the family would laugh. Not my mom. She was always beautiful. But, uh, but just things like that that weren't actually funny, that were really, um, there was some really cruel family. jokes that had just become part of the dialogue. And so during that time, I was realizing, I need to speak up about this. I'm not willing to take this anymore. And I even said at one stage to one of my siblings, you better, just a word of warning here, you better not give it if you can't take it because I've reached a stage where I can no longer take it without giving it. And I said, I've got decades of silent observation up my sleeve.

So you might want to be watching what you say to me from now on. And I was like branded the worst person in the world because I was upsetting the family dynamics. Like, you know, it just, it was like a pack of wolves just surrounding me and attacking. And but in the end, I started transforming that to compassion and just realizing, okay, well, we've all grown up. up in a family that had a broken adult, you know, that had had a father who'd never been loved, and so he really had no idea how to love. And that was how I healed my relationship with him as well, was through compassion. And just realizing that it's rarely about us when people are attacking us. It's really what we're triggering in them. And so, yeah, it started my healing journey

and it was a hard old road. And I wouldn't say that I'm close to my siblings now, but there's absolutely no nonsense between us anymore. It's really respectful and kind. And any interactions we have are respectful and pleasant. And so, yeah, I mean, it's been over a decade since anyone's dared to put any of that nonsense. I mean, it's probably been closer to 15, 20 years.

But I had to change the whole family dynamic. And the only way I could do that was to start expressing myself. And that was absolutely terrifying. But in the end, it earned me some respect and certainly earned me self-respect. Sometimes when we speak up in our lives, for sure, it can be uncomfortable for the people around us, especially if that lack of openness has been building up for decades. And sometimes it can also be a little bit contagious.

People start to speak up themselves and they see a different way of going about things. I'm curious, how was it for your mom? Because you grew up in this environment and you talk about your dad and ultimately you healed with him. How was it for your mom when you started to speak up? Did any of that start to come her way as well too?

Yeah, my mom, she's a different person than what she was when I was growing up. And as I said earlier, dad's been gone 10 years, but they had a completely different relationship. He adored her. He absolutely adored her. But she speaks up to other people now. She'll speak up to my siblings if they, I don't know if they don't speak to her respectfully. She also has her own sibling relationships, that one in particular that she speaks up all the time and that sibling used to just put so much nonsense dump so much unheeled trauma, really, so much nonsense upon Mum. And whereas Mum

just says, now, I don't need this. I'm not taking it. Go and sort yourself out. And so yeah, it's really, it's really beautiful. And Mama always says that, that it was, that I've taught her how to speak up for herself. And even now, she's late 80s. And I'll say to her, you're not going to let someone speak to you that way, are you, Mom? Like, speak up. And, and I've, I've seen a, lovely quote somewhere on social media and it said that our children aren't a product of us, they're the evolution of us. And so I'd like to think that with my daughter as well. Like there is absolutely no way she would put up with people speaking to her the way I put up

with it. And she pulls me in the to line all the time and I'll say, yeah, you're right. Sorry, sweetie. Sorry, I was out of line there or that must have felt really bad. and let me make it up to you or whatever. We have a very open and honest conversation. And I think that the more of us who can do that, it does give other people permission.

You're right, true. It gives other people permission to sort of think, oh, okay, well, if they're going to speak up to that person, maybe I need to let them also know how I've been feeling. Yeah. Yeah. My heart goes out to anybody who's listening today that feels like they're in an environment

where they don't have that person who might be the leader in their family or their friend network who's sort of giving the courage and also the reminder that you know, we, there's a reason that life gives us the situation that we're in and it might be that the courage is for them to be the first person

and they're the person that everybody's been waiting for to start to, express themselves, to start to think about some of these regrets that are weighing on them or could weigh on them in the future and create the permission and environment for other people to say, yeah, I don't want to live this way either. I want to share how I feel about the situation. So if you're waiting for it, maybe the people around you don't have the strength. And actually, you have the awareness and you have the knowledge. And it's painful and it takes courage. But it could be that your community is needing or counting on you to be the first person to do it. And even if they're

not counting on you, still living a life without expressing yourself is ultimately going to be the regret. That's the poison that we sit with. You know, forget about it benefiting anybody else, which it will ultimately if we, you know, try to rectify, but it's not something that we need to be carrying on our shoulders for the rest of our lifetime. I'm going to move on to regret number three. and this regret number three is, I wish I had the courage to, sorry, the regret number three is about community. I wish I had stayed in touch with my friends.

What were people saying when they were sharing this regret to you? What was behind the context of this feeling that they had lost touch with golden relationships? Well, when people are dying, they want to live for as long as they can. And often their adult children are sort of already in a place of grief. And so even though the dying person is a patient and they're dying, they're still a parent if they've been a parent.

And so they're still worried about their children, even if their children are 40 years old. And so sometimes they just want to reflect on memories that don't carry the responsibility of parenthood. So they want to think back, to fun times with friends and they want to just be who they are when they're not being a parent. And friends are really great for that. I mean, friends often carry memories.

Friends will often carry memories that precede the parenting role. So they may come from when the person was before they'd even had their family or they represent another aspect of the people. And so, yeah, patients, they just want to enjoy themselves. If they can't get outside, they want the outside brought into them. And friends seem to do that with a completely different spirit than, even if the friend is grieving and sad, they still manage to bring a different lightness to dying people than what family do,

probably because the patient doesn't feel the same responsibility to the friend. So, you know, a lot of these people were pre-internet day, in terms of the friendships were formed prior to the internet. And so they'd lost touch because they weren't connected on social media or whatever. But even these days, social media might keep you connected to a degree, but there's no comparison to real-life connection and to, like, you and your mates going walking on your morning walks. That's just so healthy to be, we're meant to be.

we're meant to be connected. And so for a lot of the dying people who had that regret, it was that they couldn't reach out and see that person in their last days or weeks when they needed that more than ever. And it was just letting life get in the way and not prioritizing the value of the friendship. There's so many people that have a beautiful friendship. And if you've maintained a friendship long enough, there's going to be a breakdown. There'll be misunderstandings.

There'll be something maybe went wrong. And it really takes a level of forgiveness to maintain these friendships in our lives. And I know that one of the things that I've had friends, even that haven't been on their deathbed with regrets, I've had friends that have talked to about important relationships in their life. And one of the regrets that shows up is that

okay, maybe I was in the right, so to speak, for holding a grudge against this person or cutting them out for my life temporarily because of something that happened. But really, they'd miss that person. And if they could, they would have gone back. And that's the idea is that they still can. They would have gone back and just applied a level of forgiveness or put themselves in that person's shoes and said, okay, even something that went really bad, they didn't mean it or maybe that's the best that they knew at the time. And I feel like the big regret of so many people these days is it's so easy to write off a friendship and then just move on to the next thing. But it actually takes

work and it makes us a better person if we're willing to. And not in every case, you know, it's up to the individual who's listening. But if we can forgive a little bit and apply some understanding by just imagining that if I was in that role, how would I want somebody to treat me? So I know that's a big regret for a lot of my friends, is that holding on to being right instead of maintaining a friendship and then letting something be water under the bridge. Was that something that ever came up with the individuals that you were talking with? Yeah, but you also, it did. And you also need to, we need to factor in emotional maturity.

Like sometimes friends are on two different levels of emotional maturity and they can seem like they're on the same level even for decades. But they say that the quickest way to understand someone's level of emotional maturity is tell them how they hurt you. And their reaction will indicate where they're at. They'll either attack or run away or they'll be open to the hard conversation And, you know, I had a friend recently who held my hand and said, how can I fix this?

Just she sort of let something out that I had tried to keep private. And I spoke with her about it. And she just reached across the table, we're at coffee, out for a cup of tea. And she just reached across the table, held my hand and said, how can I fix this? And I said, you just doing that has fixed it. Like the fact that you're willing to have this conversation has fixed it. I'm also dealing with a major loss at the moment of a long time.

friend, we had a really hard conversation and she just didn't hear me and went straight into attack and has faded off. And so we can't guarantee that the friends are going to receive what we've got to say. But if we're sort of not able to say it, is it really a safe friendship anyway? Is it really a friendship that, I don't know, I think any long-term friendship is worth the work. I think it's worth that forgiveness. and accountability and actually hearing the other person and seeing what you may have triggered in them or what you may have done thoughtlessly or whatever.

But yeah, you can't always guarantee people's reactions. I love that clarification because it's the duality of the fact that not every relationship is meant to stay in our life forever. And there are times where we graduate and that person was there in our life for a reason. and we've come to a place to realize that it may not be a relationship anymore. And there's the other side, which is when I think about the folks and the friends of mine, especially, because I talk a lot about friendships in my group of this guy,

this group of guys that walk on a regular basis and we talk about how, you know, other people can create something similar. The thing that comes out is the people that have the regret are the ones that felt like going back to number three, that they didn't express how hard. hurt they were and at least give the opportunity for the person to apologize and try to make it right instead it was they should have known better why did they do it in the first place and other versions of things like that though yeah okay those things happen but they also at some point in time we're a good friend to you so the regret is not giving it a shot to at least express and then

life will show up how it will show up if they can't show up for you as an example of one friend, there's an opportunity to repair. And if they can't, you've heard it from Brony right here. It's okay to move on with your life and love them from a distance. I love them from a distance. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that.

I think about one other quote that I saw from you on the topic of being in touch with your friends. and it was about, you know, you could, you could surface level be in touch with people, but there's also this aspect of especially as you age, making sure you give yourself time with that person. Like there's nothing that makes up, like being in, okay, how are you? How's the kids? How's that? That's fine.

That can be in touch. But also, if you have these really beautiful friendships, there's something that keeps you young as you get older, regardless of what age that is, to spend time with these. old friendships. And sometimes that means going to your family or your spouse or your husband or your wife and saying, I need some time for me. I need to go spend some time with this person, even if they're all the way across the country. Because when I'm with them, even if that's once a year, once every couple of years, it lights me up. So yes, phone call, Facebook, all these things are great, but don't forget to have those special bonds in person because there's nothing

that makes up for that. We can't ever underestimate the power of real-life connection. And it also, friendship also represents a different aspect of ourselves and we need to reconnect with that part of ourselves sometimes. And it can just be one particular person that gets us there. Let's talk about the last regret, which is one that hits people on so many different. different levels. And it's the regret that I wish I had let myself be happier. What are the top things that you've seen from your time with these individuals and the thousands of stories and

DMs that I'm sure you've gotten since the blog went viral, which led to the book, which led to you being on so many podcasts and the work being shared by so many individuals. By favor, by the way, was seeing Gabor Mate, who I'm a big fan of and has been on this podcast, go on Theo Vaughn's show, who I'm also a big fan of, and talk about and introduce your work to a whole new generation of people who wouldn't have probably come across it if it wasn't for that podcast synchronicity being there. But nonetheless, I get sidetracked a little bit. But I wish I had let myself be happier. What are the top things that prevent people from stepping into the happiness?

that's waiting for them. Just on a side note, I actually caught up with Garboor and had lunch with him when he was out here in Australia. Oh, amazing. So I was able to thank him for all of those plugs that he gives my work, bless him. Yeah, so often it was the case of people trying to live up to their parents' expectations or their family's story and not giving themselves permission to be happy. and so feeling like they were going through life, paying a penance because they'd let their family down

or shamed their family somehow just because of the family story, not because they'd really done anything wrong. There was one woman who'd left a violent marriage at a time when divorce was hardly ever happening, and she'd lived her whole life in shame and trying to prove herself, even though her parents had long died. she was still like climbing the corporate ladder and just trying to be the best of everything she could and not realizing that she didn't have to carry that weight of shame and that penance for the rest of her life. And so what that regret about letting yourself be happier, it's not about denying the hard times because all of us go through suffering as we resist our growth. and that's really all that suffering is, is resisting the opportunity to grow into our potential more.

And we all have to go through that resistance and get into those uncomfortable places. But it's more about choosing where to focus your thoughts, like how long are you going to stay in that suffering? So, you know, you might be going through the worst time in your life ever, and we all go through these times that totally crack us open. And you might be going through that and you think, well, how can I choose to be happy right now? Everything's falling apart or this has happened, that's happened. And that's all relevant.

But you might just pause for five minutes and watch a bird in a tree. And in those five minutes, you've chosen happiness because you've chosen to lift yourself out of that pity party or out of that suffering. And like I say, we all suffer. There's no judgment on that. I'm hardly the most perfect human myself. I'm still growing.

And as long as I'm alive, I expect to have my ups and downs. But I can absolutely, I can say without a doubt, I am a much, much happier person since I learned to choose happiness. And so what it is is a commitment to presence and not staying stuck in what's going wrong, being great, like living a life with gratitude and presence, as soon as you commit to those two things alone, you're choosing happiness because you can't be unhappy if you're in a state of gratitude. You can't be unhappy if you're present and looking for the beauty around you.

And there is always something beautiful to be seen. It might be a smile from a stranger or two people interacting in a car park or just anything. It doesn't have to be a major thing to help you choose happiness. It's more about just realizing that one of the only true powers we have is where we direct our mind. And so choosing happiness, sure, you might be suffering most of the time, but for the next half an hour, could you go for a walk or could you do something nice for yourself and think about, you know, daydream about a holiday for half an hour instead?

and there's choosing happiness because you've lifted your mood. An important reminder that the choice is there, that we can choose it, because a lot of times the narrative, the ego, the lizard brain inside of us, will try to convince us that there's no choice in this circumstance that we're in, that this is the situation, you can't do anything about it, you just gotta suck it up and go through it, and yet there's always a choice

to at least create some space momentarily in your life to have a different way to access the present moment. Nature makes one of those. For some people, it's maybe dancing. For some people, it's calling a friend and who you haven't thought of in a little while and just letting them know that you've been thinking about them. For some people, it's sending a little quick note of gratitude to somebody in your life recently. There's so many little vehicles to the now that we could step into that at least for

us that we can't maybe change the entire situation, but we can just take a break momentarily to choose happiness, which is what you're talking about here. Yeah, well said, Drew, that's right. We take a break momentarily. And so it's not denying the lesson that you're in amongst. It's just saying that for the next five minutes or half an hour or whatever, I'm going to take a break from it. And those breaks expand.

And then they start carrying more power than the suffering. Bronny, if somebody's listening today and saying, okay, I get these five regrets and I can resonate with a few of them for sure, but there might be other regrets that I don't want to be holding on to. What's your recommendation for a practice, a way to step into reflection to be thinking about any other regrets that somebody might be carrying that are the dominant regret in their life today? And sometimes those regrets, they're so obvious when you find out what they are, But when you're in the thick of it, it's hard to notice it sometimes. Is there a practice that could be done to help dig into other regrets that we might be holding

onto? Well, I think it's really just facing a few things. And one is that mistakes are how we learn. As humans, we do our best learning through mistakes. And so trying to be a perfect human who never makes mistakes is really setting an unrealistic bar and just robbing ourselves of kindness because it's not possible to go through life and not make mistakes. And so rather than look back on the person you were with judgment and the regret and the weight of regret, look back on them with compassion and think, okay, the person I was then is not the

person I am now, even if it's only the next day. If you can look back into something and recognize it was a mistake, you've already grown from that mistake. So if you can look back on that person, whether it was yesterday, whether it was five years, 20 years, whatever, look back on them with compassion and say, okay, I was doing the best I could as who I was in that moment. And it may have been that in that moment you reacted in a way you weren't reacting, you wouldn't have normally reacted in, or it may have been you're in a different chapter of life entirely. But if you can look back with compassion, then straight away it starts dissolving the regret. Because all mistakes, all regrets are mistakes, but not all mistakes are regrets.

So the only difference between a mistake and a regret and keeping in mind, mistakes are how we learn, so there's nothing wrong with mistakes, the only difference between regrets and mistakes is the judgment we put upon them. So whatever someone is regretting is a mistake. Sure, they've learned from it, I've learned from my mistakes. But what turns a mistake into a regret is just this hardcore judgment that we put on ourselves for being imperfect, for being a normal human being. So if we can look back and say, okay, I'm going to try and have compassion for that younger, that former version of myself, I'm going to recognize their brokenness in that moment,

and I'm going to love them anyway because they were just human and they made a mistake, then the weight of the regret can just start sliding off them. That's so powerful. The less that you judge yourself and realize that you did the best you could, the more you also understand that so many of the, these regrets and definitely the five that we covered here that you talk about in the book are driven by the voice of the other that are in our lives. But the more you don't judge

yourself, the more you also understand that that voice is your father's voice, but he did the best that he could. That voice was your gym teacher's voice. That voice was your old boss's voice. That voice was this. And when there's understanding, those voices have less power in our life. That's what I'm hearing from you. And when they have less power, we're now starting to step into freedom. Is that accurate? Yes, absolutely. And really, if we're a good person, if we're trying to go through life with courage and kindness, that's enough. That's enough. We don't need the judgment. If we know that we're going to always try to choose kindness and courage, we're living well.

This has been fantastic and I'm so thankful that we've had this opportunity here to visit your work with my audience and I think taking a moment today and reflecting on regrets and death as one of the most powerful tools to be, as you say, one of the greatest teachers in life. We have so much time in the day

that's dedicated to doom scrolling and this and that. So the fact that the audience has taken this time today to sit with us and reflect on such an important topic, it means the world to me and I know it means the world to you. And we wouldn't be here today talking about the subject if it wasn't for that younger woman who was doing the best that she could in her own life and trying to live a little differently and who was tired of wearing high heels and stockings and wanting to be the best. listeners that she could to people around her. And the young woman who was overwhelmed at the first time that somebody was dying in front of her and wondering if she was doing it right. So I want

to just acknowledge the life that you've lived and continue to live every day because it's had such an impact for so many of us. So thank you so much for your work. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you, Drew. And being here today has been a real blessing to meet you finally this and to spend this time with everyone listening. And also thank you for the work that you do and the goodness that you bring to the world. Let's not underscore that either. The five regrets of the dying, 33 languages now, is it?

33 languages, 32, somewhere around there. It's available. It's one of the best, if you're thinking about gifting a book to somebody, is one of the best books to gift to somebody in your life. And, of course, if you haven't picked up a copy for yourself, definitely pick it up. Bonnie, thank you so much for being on a podcast.

My pleasure. Thank you, too. Hi, everyone, Drew here. Two quick things. Number one, thank you so much for listening to this podcast. If you haven't already, subscribe, just hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast app. And by the way, if you love this episode, it would mean the world to me. And it's the number one thing that you can do to support this podcast is share it with a friend. Share it with a friend who would benefit from listening.

Number two, before I go, I just had to tell you about something that. I've been working on that I'm super excited about. It's my weekly newsletter, and it's called Try This. Every Friday, yes, every Friday, 52 weeks a year, I send out an easy-to-digest protocol of simple steps that you or anyone you love can follow to optimize your own health. We cover everything from nutrition to mindset, to metabolic health, sleep, community, longevity, and so much more.

If you want to get on this email list, which is, by the way, free, and get my weekly step-by-step protocols for whole body health and optimization, click the link in the show notes that's called Try This, or just go to Drew Perot.com, that's D-H-R-U-P-U-R-O-H-I-T dot com, and click on the tab that says, try this.