Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - 8 Marks of a Healthy Church (A Conversation with my Dad)

Episode Date: July 14, 2026

Blockbuster had 9,000 stores and was worth $9 billion. Today, only one location remains. What happened — and what does it have to do with the church?In this episode, Pastor Scott Ardavanis sits down with his son Jonny for a father-son conversation on what actually makes a church healthy. Is it true that churches need to "change with the times or die," like Blockbuster and Kodak failed to do? Or are there timeless, transcendent principles every healthy church must hold onto regardless of culture?This episode is brought to you by our ministry partner Accountable2You. Join thousands living in freedom with nothing to hide, and visit https://accountable2you.com/dialin. Use our unique code DIALIN to get 25% off your first year of an Accountable2You Personal or Family PlanTogether they unpack 8 marks of a healthy church, including:1. A High View of God2. A High View of Scripture (expository preaching & sound doctrine)3. Every Member Ministry (every believer serving, not just watching)4. A Commitment to Holiness & Discipleship5. Christ-Centered, Spirit-Filled Worship6. A Devotion to Prayer7. A Gospel-Centered Focus (local & global)8. Qualified Biblical Leadership (elders & deacons)Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or simply trying to find a healthy church home, this conversation will help you understand what to look for — and why the church doesn't need a new strategy so much as faithfulness to God's Word.🔔 Subscribe for more conversations on the church, pastoral ministry, and biblical leadership.📌 Part 2 coming soon: What is a biblical elder, and how do you know if your church has qualified leadership?Timestamps:00:00 Intro: Blockbuster, Netflix & the Church04:47 Pillar 1: A High View of God07:51 Pillar 2: A High View of Scripture & Preaching13:16 Pillar 3: Every Member Ministry15:19 Pillar 4: Holiness & Discipleship18:51 Pillar 5: Christ-Centered Worship23:24 Pillar 6: A Commitment to Prayer25:13 Pillar 7: Gospel-Centered Focus (Local & Global)27:57 Pillar 8: Qualified Biblical Leadership29:16 Why This Matters for Every Believer

This episode of Dialen is brought to you by Crossway, publisher of the pleasures of God, Meditations on God's Delight and Being God. And this beloved classic pastor and best-selling author, John Piper, searches Scripture to uncover the pleasures that delight the heart of God. Each chapter focuses on a specific joy, the glory of his son, the beauty of creation, the richness of his grace, the prayers of his people, and more. Pick up a copy of the pleasures of God wherever books are sold, or visit crossway.org forward slash pleasures of God

to get 30% off with a free Crossway Plus account. You've been a pastor in my entire life. I don't know if I've ever talked about this really on the island, but I've been a pastor's kid since the day I was born. I've heard it often said, if the church doesn't change their strategy, they're going to lose the next generation. Many churches in America have failed to learn the lessons

from marketplace companies such as Kodak and Blockbuster. Change with the times or die. Is it true that churches need to change with the times or die, Or are there certain principles or pillars of a church that are transcendent of culture and context that every believer needs to know? What would you say? Welcome to the Dialin podcast today. I'm sitting down with none other than Scott Ardivannis, aka the Big Poppy.

Dad, you have seven children. I think it's no secret. I'm your favorite. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. First time on Dialin, tell people where you. pastor. You've been a pastor in my entire life. I think, I don't know if I've ever talked about this really

on the, on island, but I've been a pastor's kid since the day I was born. Tell people where you serve, where you're a pastor right now. Pastoring in the state of California, right in the middle, in central California, in the city of Kingsburg, Grace Church of the Valley, and I've been there the last 15 years. Okay. Well, I'm grateful to be your son. And one of the things I maybe was thinking about as we jump into the episode growing up every other Friday or so, we used to pile into the 15 passenger van. There were seven of us. Used to drive us around. I remember you used to get like a drink at Taco Bell and you'd pass it back for a sip and then you'd get it back empty and just hear the slurping of the ice. But we would all hop in the van and we would go to a store called Blockbuster. And this was

like a family tradition. We would walk in. We'd get Rudy or I don't know, remember the Titans. And we would go and rent movies. And at one point, probably in the 90s, statistically, they had 9,000 stores, 9,000 blockbusters with 84,000 employees, and it was a company worth over $9 billion. But when I was in high school, I started hearing about this strange idea that you could order DVDs and rent them and they would be delivered straight to your door. And at one point, Blockbuster had the opportunity to purchase this company that would send DVDs right to your door. And they could purchase it for $50 million.

And they passed on this company, which in their mind was. doomed to fail. The Blockbuster CEO at the time, James Key said, I've been frankly confused by this fascination that everybody has with Netflix. Netflix doesn't really do anything that we can't or don't already do ourselves. Well, in a matter of years, that company that was once an icon of American business was reduced. This is Blockbuster to a single location. You can still knock yourself out and go to Blockbuster today with your family, but you'd have to drive to Bend Oregon, or the only remaining Blockbuster exists. Amazing.

And that once multi-billion dollar business, Blockbuster, was being traded in recent years for a fraction of a penny and now is no longer in existence, you know, as a tradable stock. And the company that they passed on buying Netflix is now worth, I think as of today, some 320 billion similar to your net worth. Yeah, maybe just a little more. And people ask the question, what happened to Blockbuster? what happened to this once thriving institution. And one writer says Thomas McDaniels,

he says that many churches have done the same thing that Blockbuster is doing. He says, many churches in America have failed to learn the lessons from Marketplace companies such as Kodak and Blockbuster. He says, change with the times or die. Blockbuster became irrelevant. They didn't adapt.

They didn't innovate. They didn't change with the times. And therefore they died. And you have other people writing today saying, hey, this is what churches need to do. I've heard it often said, hey, if the church doesn't change their strategy, they're going to lose the next generation. As Thomas McDaniel says, he says, change with the times or die. But, you know, in my conversation with you, I mean, my understanding of a church is not just derived from, you know, books or from reading the scripture necessarily.

It's from growing up in your home. And I want to ask that question, is that true? You know, like change with the times or die. And we've been dialoguing before we hopped on here. And I think we've been dialoguing about this my entire life. life. And as a pastor now, we go back and forth so much. But I just want to talk about the marks of a healthy church. You know, like, is it true that churches need to change with the times or die? Or are there certain principles or pillars of a church that are transcendent of culture and context

that every believer needs to know? What would you say? Absolutely. I think of that line, the phrase you gave on the pillars of a healthy church. coming back even to your opening illustration on Blockbuster, I think it's crucial. There's two pillars that stand out to me, not the only ones, but two at the very top of that list would be, number one, a high view of God, and secondly, a high view of scripture. So when you think about the church, it's not a commodity that's changing with the culture. And the reason is, because, number one, God's character doesn't change. That's a high view of him. And then, then secondly, the scriptures never change.

So we would teach that the scripture transcends all culture. And the main thrust of the church is not to look like the culture. The main thrust of the church would be to present a high view of God that's revealed in the scripture. And secondly, a high view of scripture that it's the very breath of God and His word that is truth to us today. So let's go back. We wrote down eight pillars, you know, regardless of where you are, you may be watching or listening. You may be asking the question, I want to be a part of a healthy church. I wrote down that there are, I think, 11,000 churches in Tennessee, you know, where I live.

And I'm in Franklin, Tennessee, just south of Nashville. What should someone be looking for in a church? You just mentioned two, and I want to kind of circle back and punctuate a couple things on the first of those two. But we wrote down eight pillars of a healthy church. Some of these have sub-components, you know, and we'll talk about those as we go. but let's go back to the first one, meaning a church, its health, is established upon this primary principle

of a high view of God. Now, let's just extrapolate on that. When you say, if someone says, you know, Scott, I want to know if my church is a healthy church, and you say, well, do they have a high view of God? What do you mean by that? And what does that look like? Yeah, a high view of God is a way of expressing

his character that's revealed to us in the scripture that tells us about his character, his name, his nature. So when you think about what the role of the church is, the role of the church should be presenting to the people who are in that local body a high view of his character, his attributes that are revealed in the Word of God. When it says, Johnny, in Ephesians 321, to him be the glory in the church

and in Christ Jesus forever and ever, to him be the glory. What is the glory of God? It's the honor of God. It's the, in the Old Testament, it was called cavode. It was the weight of God. And so when you think of his glory in the church, you're asking that the character and worth and nature and person of God be revealed in the church. And so I call that high view of God as revealed in the Word of God. when you get to the pastoral's, Paul kept telling Titus. Pastoral epistles. Yeah, to the pastoral epistles, he told Titus to preach sound doctrine.

I was looking at that again in 2 Timothy, even this morning. He told him to retain the standard of sound words. And you see this over and over again of apostolic doctrine, truth that came from the apostles and the books that have been given to us in the scripture. So when you think about the pillar of a local church, it would be fair to say that the foundational pillar is what you do with the Word of God. As you head into the summer, one of the things that I would highly encourage you to have is some sort of digital accountability on your devices. The Puritans used to draw our attention to the reality that an idle mind is the devil's playground, meaning that when we are idle and we have time, we are more vulnerable to temptation. in this regard, I would highly recommend you accountable to you.

It's a purity, accountability software that I use personally and other members of my team do as well. You can go to accountable to you.com slash dial in and use our code dial in to get 25% off your first year. And you can find out more information there. Find an accountability partner. And as my friend says, accountability is the friend of integrity. And that's our goal to honor the Lord when we're alone as we would in front of other people. And so check out accountable to you.com. You know, if you might be asking the question, well, how do I know if my church has a high view of God?

Well, there's going to be a joy in your church, but it's not glib. It's not flippant. Right. It's not cavalier. Not programs. Yeah, not just programs. We're here to worship God. And we'll talk about that more in regards to worship.

But we're here to make much of God. And what you're mentioning with this high view of God, it's obviously this derivative of a high view of scripture, which means there's a commitment to sound doctrine. and it means that the church is committed to the preaching of the Word of God. Now, even that idea of preaching, sometimes in the contemporary culture, you're seeing even kind of like a reluctance to use the word preaching. You know, like this is one of my favorite talks of Jesus. This is one of my favorite messages of Jesus or sayings of Jesus. And so I think people don't want to use that word preaching because it sounds authoritative.

It might be, but that's what the scripture, tells pastors to do is to preach the word. Yes. And maybe just talk about that for a minute, you know, as a healthy church, I want to find, you know, I want to be in a healthy church. I want to be saying when you say a high view of scripture that's demonstrated by a commitment to preaching the Bible, how would you to a novice, you know, in an elevator? Someone says, what do you mean by preaching the Bible?

How would you explain that? I think you alluded to it, Johnny, maybe to say it another way as I was in Second Timothy as I prepare to open that book. I have one passion in preaching that book to the people at Grace Church of the Valley is to get them to what we would call the authorial will of the author. Paul in that passage in book is speaking to Timothy and really the duty of a pastor is to not be clever. It's to not be glib. It's to not manufacture his personality. He has to has but one goal, and that's to get the intent of what the author wrote in the scripture. So I was spending time this morning mining what that means, even when he says to Timothy,

grace, mercy, and peace to you. And when he called him my beloved son, according to the promise of eternal life, all those words matter because they're the very breath of God. Johnny, I think I think you're right. A lot of people who think that their church is committed to expository preaching, I think many of them are not. You will know that when you hear the voice of Scripture coming out of the voice of the pastor that's preaching. And for Paul, he was not only called as an apostle, he was also called as a preacher. And that very word in the New Testament speaks of a proclamation of truth. So I, I think when you say a high view of God, is the pastor revealing the intent of the author who wrote that particular book? And then by way of definition, we're line by line, precept by precept.

And my bread and butter is I just go through one book to another. So I just, I was in the gospel of John. Then I did the book of Daniel from chapter one to chapter 12. and then uh for seven years no was that well i don't think it was that long it got long though between some breaks yeah but i just you just you're pushing through the scripture because i don't have another gimmick i don't have my cleverness it's not our our wisdom or our power of our rhetoric it has to be grounded in the word and i think that's why it's important that a man is trained to study the scripture that's not that all topical preaching is wrong i i correct topically

I'm preaching topically this summer. Correct. So High view of God, high view of the scripture. We wrote down every member ministry, number three, meaning that believers within the body of Christ, they serve. I remember you giving the example,

and I don't think it was yours originally, that the church is likened to Lambeau Field. You know, 80,000 people watching 22 people sweat, you know, Packer Stadium. Yes. The church is not to be full of observers or an audience. It's people that minister to each other.

Maybe just talk about that for a moment. The healthy church is where every member ministers and every member ministry doing the one another's which includes this element of membership within the church talk about that for a moment yeah just maybe i'll dovetail both what we just talked about about the pastor's role it's very explicitly stated that in in uh ephesians 411 he gave apostles he gave a prophets those are foundation foundational evangelist and then he gave pastors and teachers And then it's very clear what those pastors and teachers do. It says in Ephesians 412, they equip the saints to do the work of ministry.

To equip means to build up the saints. In fact, it's a word that spoke of the construction of a house being built up. And so pastors have been given by Christ as gifts to the church to build and equip the saints. to build and equip the saints. And I take that to maturity. Doesn't mean full maturity, but once the saints are equipped, it says... Maturity.

Yeah, and... It's something we've been battling for a while, maturity or maturity. Yeah, maturity. Yeah, what was I using? What was I saying? You say it the way J-Mack does with you. And I just think you're building up

the saints to do the work of the ministry. So what we mean by that statement, every member ministry, pastors preach congregations worship we'll talk about that in a moment with the key purpose that you be building up the body

so that the body releases their gifts to one another not just on Sunday but throughout the week yeah super important fourth principle we wrote down as just I would say a desire for holiness both in that's going to be if your church has a high view of God

yes right the people that are a part of that church, the pastors are going to desire for the people in that church and the believers within that church family to be more like Christ. This includes a commitment to discipleship. This is the will of God for our life

for Cicelonians 4.3. This is the will of God. What's that? Your sanctification. Sanctification is a lifelong process by which we become more like Christ. And if it's the will of God for our life that we become more like them,

then it's got to be the goal of the church for people to be presented as holy and blameless before. And this is why he chose us in him, right? Ephesians went before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless. So this includes discipleship, which I want to touch on for a moment, this element of, for it to be a healthy church,

there has to be the modeling that you see in Titus 2 of older men, discipling younger men, older women, discipling younger women. That's what's necessary because there's a goal, there's an objective in the church to present the members that are a part of it, not just to use their gifts, but to be made more like Christ, and that's a team project. Yeah. Everybody's, we say, I like to say, has to have their oars in the water moving towards

the mark of maturity, which is Christ-likeness, which again, Johnny, as we come back to the purpose, and we've talked about this a lot, the purpose of a church and the goal of it should be to look more like Jesus Christ. Now, you and I both know as shepherds were imperfect, our people are imperfect, we're not in glory yet, and yet this theme of holiness is found even in Ephesians 5 when you think of Christ that he might sanctify her by the washing of the water with the word that he might present her, you know, holy and blameless before him. And that will only be arrived at in heaven.

But the church ought to be a place that's nurturing those discipleship relationships and admonishing the older men, the older women, the younger women, the younger men, and those in the marketplace to look and think and talk and act like the Lord Jesus Christ. I think maybe somewhere along the line, some churches have thought that if we push people towards holiness, it's legalism. But the reality is if it's a biblical church, they're going to care a lot about holiness, wanting to be more like Jesus.

That's the will of God for our life. Ephesians 5-1, be imitators of God. So that's a big goal. Okay, number five is... Yeah, but wait, you would just even say, theologically, it's a very truncated view, is it not? When you think of the big parameters of glorification, you think of justification, sanctification,

and glorification, justification, obviously is dealing with our standing in evangelism. It means we're declared righteous, right? Yeah, but then sanctification is part of that. It's a process. So to not be moving forward in that is to have a truncated theology that leaves your people without impetus

to grow into the likeness of Christ. So you preach that and you model that. Yeah, no, it's great. Fifth year is Christ. centered, spirit-filled worship. And this is not just singing, right? Romans 12, you know, is, I beseech you by the mercies of God to present your bodies as a living and holy sacrifices as your reasonable service of worship, meaning worship is our life. Sometimes when we talk about worship, people say, well, worship isn't just singing. It's your life, which would be true.

But then there's also this element of, and that could be its own message, and we'll talk about that more like our whole life being worship. But when the people of God gather, it is a biblical command to sing to the Lord. And this isn't like some sort of peripheral, you know, imperative. It says in Psalm 95, oh, come let us sing to the Lord. Let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation. That's Psalm 95. Psalm 96. Oh, sing to the Lord a new song. Sing to the Lord all the earth. Sing to the Lord bless his name. Psalm 97, Psalm 98, verse 1. Oh, sing to the Lord a new song. this matters to God. So it should matter to the church, right?

Like how we worship God. Obviously we worship through a number of different ways, worship through preaching of the Word of God. We worship God through our fellowship with each other. But Paul says, you know, with Psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing with melody in your hearts to God. So a commitment to worship in singing, a commitment to worship through the sacraments.

That's baptism, the Lord's table. talk about just even that element of the Lord's table. We've typically do it on the first Sunday of the month. Is that when you guys still do it? We actually do it twice a month on the first and the third Sundays. Better than me, I guess. Yeah, well, it's just, it's crucial. I think of worship how important that is,

especially you're preaching through some of the Psalms this summer. You just see that come out everywhere. The scripture that's made just an important, Just paradigm in my mind is out of Ephesians 5. You just quoted it. Do not be drunk or get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the spirit. And then it says this, addressing one another in Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart. But it's that one another aspect.

And I believe when the church gathers corporately, there needs to be. an element that we're worshiping together. And Johnny, I take that as a means of grace that God uses not only the power of his word, but he uses the songs. We just had Matt Papa with us on Sunday night, and it was such a joy just to be able to sing with a lot of the hymns that him and Matt Boswell,

as well as Keith Getty have written. But it just was wonderful. I would never understand. mind or underplay or overstate the role of the word and say that worship isn't crucial. It's vital. And sometimes it's a lopsided. Like you have people that are worship centered and then there's kind of an anecdotal message, you know, TED talk.

And then other times you 58 minutes sermon and we'll sing a song. Absolutely. Balance is needed in there. Yeah. And it's a both and not an either or. And so, yeah, it really does matter. And what you said, even if Fugentify is be filled with the dispute. is singing to one another, meaning that worship is not, you're not an audience, right?

No, your biblical worship is participatory. Like, you're worshipping it. That's why it says in Colossians and in Ephesians that we sing to one another. Yes. One of the things that I say before church, sometimes before we sing, I'll say like, hey, listen, this is not just about your heart with the Lord. People talk about like, oh, I'm worshipping. It's between me and the Lord. And it's like, no, one of the reasons we worship is so that through your imperfect voice, you would encourage someone else to make much of Jesus Christ. In fact, even, even, you not think, Johnny, when you sing at Stonebridge or for us in California, there is something about corporate worship together. And I think that sometimes when you go into dead churches

where people are not genuinely saved, there's not a song on their heart. So when you have a group of people that are spirit filled, walking in the spirit, singing, you know, at the top of their lungs appropriately, God does something in the midst of that corporately. In fact, you notice it says the same thing in Colossians, doesn't it? Where it says there that we're basically singing to one another and giving thanks and Psalms and hymns. And so crucial that aspect of worship, which would include the Lord's Table and Baptism. Yeah. Number six and worthy of its own episode is is prayer be hard to talk about singing and preaching without at least acknowledging what's worthy of a whole episode in Acts 242. It says they devoted themselves to the apostles teaching

and to fellowship and to the breaking of bread and prayer. Prayer has got to be commitment of the church, commitment of the believer's life in Acts 6. The elders are too busy, right, taking care of needs. And it says that they elect deacons so that they can commit themselves to the the ministry of the Word of God and to prayer. Sometimes prayer becomes kind of anecdotal to a service, you know, or to a believer's life, but it's a primary commitment. And so it is as healthy as a church as it is committed to prayer. And that's both from a Sunday perspective, but throughout the week, the people that gather,

the community groups that gather, sometimes it's easy as a community group, you know, to gather around questions. But believers in the early church, and you have to look back, they're committed to prayer. Number six. And number seven would be, we wrote down just a gospel-centered focus. Churches, you mentioned in Ephesians, equipping of the saints, to present them as mature in Christ. But Paul tells Timothy to do the work of an evangelist. And we wrote down that there's a local component of this and a global component of this. Maybe just talk about that commitment. A church, they're not naval gazers. It's not, you know, we've talked about a little bit of... Have your needs met? Yeah, an idolatry of a healthy church too sometimes where people go, as for us, we teach the Bible. Like we're not compromised. And you can have, there are churches that we teach sound doctrine, but there's no evidence sometimes of a heart that that bleeds over the fact that people are going to hell.

And people need the gospel. So talk about that local and global element. It's just, I'm thinking of our purpose statement at Grace Church of the Valley for us that we exist to glorify God. and then we say by exalting the Savior, equipping the saints, and then that third arm is to extend the kingdom. So a church that's healthy, Johnny, just affirming with you,

it's preaching, it's worshiping, it's disciplining, but it is extending the kingdom and that extension of the kingdom is both local in your own sphere, your own Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, but it's also a global effect to the world so that here just for us in the last four months we just sent a family to Albania,

pastor that was serving with us. That's fulfilling part of that great commission to go work alongside my daughter and your sister, Spencer and Tara Long. And then we had the wonderful privilege back in December to send Jack and Michelle Barley back to their own country in New Zealand. but we're supporting that work globally. I think a church that's healthy is both reaching into its community and then it's reaching across the globe with the centrality. You just mentioned it of the gospel of Jesus Christ because we're to go into all the world, right? So there should be a strategy there.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I think sometimes there's a lack of luster in the church because there's no clear objective that's communicated or caught, you know, both things of like, hey, we're not just, We're here so you would be equipped for a purpose. Yes. And it's supposed to minister to the body, but also to reach the world and the community around us with the truth.

The last thing is really just more of an al-UPE. We have eight pillars, the first seven so far, a high view of God, a high view of scripture, every member ministry, holiness, a commitment to discipleship underneath that banner, Christ-centered, spirit-filled worship. That's through song, through fellowship, through our giving, right?

And this isn't exhaustive. Six would be prayer, commit to prayer. Prayer, it's our relationship with God is not a transaction. It's a relationship. Seven is that gospel-centered focus. And then here's really what I want to just touch on it. And then I want to do maybe the next episode on it. Yeah.

We'll talk together. It's just qualified biblical leadership. Elders, that elder. And I think I want to talk more about that in our next episode. what is an elder? What do elders do? And how is an elder qualified for that responsibility within a church?

And I think sometimes even going back to where we started with Blockbuster, the quote says, change with the times or die. But I'm so thankful in a young church, you know, that I'm not scratching my head as to the playbook. I'm not trying to draw up new plays.

I've never read a book on church growth. I've never read a book on church strategy. Maybe that's dumb. I just, I have because when we look to God's word, elders lead churches. And they're given specific parameters for who's qualified to do that. And then what they do. And I want to talk to you more about that. And I think, and this may be where we'll end, I think there are people who think

if you're an elder, you should understand what an elder does. But if you're listening or watching and you're a part of a church, everybody, every believer, right, needs to have an understanding of God's design for the leadership in the church. Absolutely. Because if you don't have an understanding of God's design for leadership in the church, you won't know if you're in a healthy one, right? Which is one of the most important things about your own life spiritually until you meet Christ face to face. So I want to talk about that more in our next episode, but anything before we wrap up. I just, the thing, it's impossible to have a healthy,

church without healthy leadership. And the reason I say that is when Paul dropped Titus, his young son in the faith, behind enemy lines into the island of Crete, he said, I left you there that you may put into order what remains. And the idea was the Cretan churches were chaos. And I think sometimes we think Crete, was just one church. There were hundreds of churches historians believe. But he dropped Titus in there

and it said to appoint elders in every city as I directed you. And then what's fascinating there, Johnny, and we don't have time here. Titus, the whole book then tells you what an elder is.

It first starts out with his character. Then it says what he does. does. His character is, is that he's above reproach. And then it gives, I don't know, maybe it's 18 qualities of what mark that man. And then it talks about his duty, how he holds fast to the word of God. So I believe without an understanding of the role of elders and deacons, it's going to be hard to model the truth that we've been talking about today. Yeah. So it's not anything less than very significant for any believer's life to understand what elders do in the church.

That's not a term that people have come up with in the last hundred years. It's a biblical term given by God for the leadership of the church and every believer needs to understand what that looks like. So I want to talk to you about that more in the next episode, but I love you, Dad, and so thankful for you. Praise the Lord. Great to be on with you today. All right, great.