Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - A Biblical Framework for Dating | Stages, Communication & What the Church Gets Wrong

Episode Date: June 9, 2026

What does the Bible actually say about dating? And why does the church barely talk about it?This episode is sponsored by The Master's University. To learn more about how you can invest in a college education devoted to Christ & Scripture, visit https://www.masters.eduWe brought in Greg Gifford — biblical counselor, professor, and author — to give us a theology of dating that applies whether you're 22 or 45. This is one of the most practical and honest conversations we've had on the show.Topics covered:• Acquaintance → Friend → Best Friend: the 3 stages of a dating relationship• How to communicate at each stage (and what oversharing too early costs you)• How to define the relationship (DTR) without being weird about it• Online dating: sin or Christian liberty?• Evaluating spiritual maturity — and why it's not about reading John Calvin• Why technology since 2007 has made relationships harder If you've ever felt like no one's giving you real, biblical guidance on dating — this episode is for you.📍 Find Greg: The Force Institute Podcast

This episode of Dialand is brought to you by Crossway, publisher of the pleasures of God, meditations on God's delight in being God. And this beloved classic pastor and best-selling author, John Piper, searches Scripture to uncover the pleasures that delight the heart of God. Each chapter focuses on a specific joy, the glory of his son, the beauty of creation, the richness of his grace, the prayers of his people, and more. Pick up a copy of the pleasures of God wherever books are sold, or visit crossway.org, forward slash pleasures of God to get 30% off with a free Crossway Plus account.

I can count on it maybe one hand the amount of sermons I've heard on the subject of dating or relationships. And I think all of those sermons were in high school. I used to think it was like, I had to know if I was going to marry a girl to bring her around my family. That's a lot of pressure. Yeah, which can actually sabotage the relationship because you've been dating for three months and you're like, so are we getting married and where are we retiring? And it's like, well, we can go. Like our first three months, we're acquaintances that are moving closer to a friendship. Knowing that role helps you know, like, what I should say, what I shouldn't say.

And I think this principle will be true if you're 30 in dating or if you're 22 in dating, is that we need a season of just dating. I don't know you yet. I've seen your resume, so to speak, but I don't know who you really are. I want to get to know you. And I'll ask people this. And I do mean it graciously. It's like, could someone else talk to them the way you do?

And you would be okay with that. But if you're like, no, man, like no other dude better be calling her like this and taking her out. It's like, okay. Well, you need to clarify the nature of your relationship. Greg, thanks so much for sitting down. I wanted to talk to you about dating relationships. You know, we were just talking about before the episode that I can count on it, maybe one hand, the amount of sermons I've heard on the subject of dating or relationships,

engagement, courting, whatever you want to call it. And I think all of those sermons were in high school or college. And as a pastor, I'm a pastor of a church that's fairly multi-generational. I feel like it would almost be out of place to be like, oh, I'm going to talk about dating. But it shouldn't be because it's kind of the most pressing question to a lot of people. One of the biggest decisions people make in life is who they marry. And who they marry is often a derivative of how they think about dating and relationships. and so I feel like the church has not done a great job at helping people navigate this subject biblically.

And so I want to talk to you kind of about a theology of dating stages of relationship communication. I've done episodes in the past about like, hey, just how to ask someone out. Because I think some people are just so crippled by the idea of it. Sure. But just maybe touch on why this is a neglected subject in the church. Yeah. And ironically, it's something that if you're 18 of, you know, know, plus it's one of the things you think about all the time and there's older people

in our church that are still looking for older than 18, I mean like that are looking for a spouse but still wondering how do we go about it? Yeah. We are at the change of something really important and think of relationships have been irreversibly changed by the internet and then all of the technologies that go with that social media and YouTube, whatever. It's funny because people viewing these episodes. or listening to these episodes are doing that technologically. Yeah. And that is forever changed relationships and dating.

Yeah. I did a, this was an interesting, you know, I have like weird academic wormholes that I go explore. And one was there, the birth rate has declined in America since 2007 and we're not replenishing ourselves. It's like 1.2 currently. Yeah. This past summer, summer 25, there was a huge like scare. scare i mean it's alarming because americans aren't having babies how long has it been declining since 2007 what happened in 2007 the iPhone was released yeah so you have siloing

and this is weird because these they're like algorithmic bubbles or silos that are taking place are hurting relationships and people are dating less there's greater expectations Not to mention a brothel in your pocket. Yeah, right. Right. So the same year, Pornhub launches and the absolute total devastation of Pornhub on men in general and then relationships. And then, of course, ladies too. So it's like you have the brothel in your pocket to use those words that's damaging.

So you're warping your view of the opposite sex. So that is not, that's not distant yesterday. That's like 2007. And ever since then, relationships are you meet people online primarily. In Christian circles, maybe it's our church. Not all of our churches are large, so that's hard to do. So you can't always meet someone your age there. There's like one guy and five gals, you know?

How would you respond to someone that said, is online dating okay for a Christian? There's no one at my church. Am I fine to go online? How would you answer that question? Yeah, I would say, yeah, it is fine. It's a Christian liberty. I don't know if you can make a strong case for meeting a person online is a sin. That's wrong.

Okay. Keep going. that. Okay. That's a big question. Yeah, so then keep teasing that out. So then you have technology has changed. You have the way we meet people has changed. And this is interesting that the loneliest people, according to Pew Research, are 18 to 29-year-olds. And that is because they're the most connected, but also the most isolated, meaning most connected to technology, but the most isolated. So if you remove the local church and you remove a vibrant local church, many people are just straight up lonely. And that's really, really hard.

I get to go to a vibrant church. You're a pastor of a vibrant church. It's like, that's great, but that's not everyone's experience. So then you now add dating to that equation. Yeah. And it's like, man, dating is hard because relationships have changed. There is not a clear text. So if you preach expositionally, there's not a clear text that is exclusively about dating.

Like you can make applications from Ruth. You can make applications from Proverbs, Psalm 1. But then some of it is like, well, we're doing a theology, not an exegesis of something. So I do think that's why you don't hear sermons that are mentioned on it. And then the other side is like, I mean, my pastor's in his late 50s, and it's been a while since he's dated. And he doesn't have a bunch of college-age students in his class. So he doesn't always have like the pastoral muscle or familiarity with what dating is like. in 2025 or six or whatever it is.

So then you get to the point of at Masters, this is like my life to a degree because most of our students are 18 to 23. I teach a class called marriage and family that is like a fan favorite because I would love to think it was like because I was so awesome. And the students just, it's like,

there's no other class like it. It's the only one on relationships, marriage, and family. And we start that class off. by talking about understanding relationships biblically, and then dating would be a part of that. So it's like, I can't go anywhere else. I don't know anyone else that's talking about this.

I don't hear sermons on this. It's really hard because technology has changed everything. Then we now have the opportunity to say, as pastors, biblical counselor, professor, whatever our role is, we have a chance to start to say, this is the way that you should think about dating biblically. And I think one slice is to start to understand, you know, the seasons of dating

and communication. And if we just started dating, what does this mean? Or if we're close to engagement, what does this mean? So there's a lot of work to be done, and I hope to continue to do that. It is so funny that, you know, I've got little kids. I pray for their future spouse almost every night. And I think there are other parents. My prayer, Lord willing, is that the spouse my kids end up marrying

has parents that are likewise praying that for them, not to say that they have to marry someone that grew up in a Christian home, but just like, hey, well, that would be so cool if the man that my daughter ends up marrying, Lord willing, has a parent around my age that is right now praying over their little boy, right? And then, so you think about that, and everyone's like, oh, of course. But then you go, well, the process by which those two individuals meet, get married, you know, or date is so undefined, it's so undocumented. You mentioned it.

Like the Bible doesn't talk about it at great length. You know, people say like, oh, the longest chapter in Genesis is on how Jacob met Rebecca. But it's like, well, hey, listen, I'm not ministering to camels. Like, it doesn't apply to me. It's not like, do this, do this. So talk to me about those stages of communication, stages of dating, maybe the misconceptions regarding like, I think there's, I date everybody, right? And it's fine.

Or I need to know I'm going to marry them before I ask them on a date, which is crippling. Yeah, right. So talk about those stages and maybe many other exceptions around them. This episode is brought to you by one of our ministry partners, the Masters University. One of the things I love about TMU is their commitment to Christ and Scripture. And not only that, they offer 150 different fields of study, all that are established upon a biblical worldview. This is so important regardless of the field of study you may be going into. They offer engineering, elementary education, music, business.

Some of you may know that I studied actually accounting and finance. and I'm so thankful for him at the day, but I was so grateful to learn finance, business, accounting from a biblical perspective. I would encourage you to check out the Masters University by visiting masters.edu. And when you do, you can even look at our own dial-in page if you go to masters.edu slash dial-in

and see if this would be a good fit for you. And if you use our code dial-in, that'll waive the application fee for you if you're a student or for the student in your life looking to pursue higher education. So I try to help our students start to frame the conversation and one way I would frame it is by understanding roles in relationships in general. And I've said this 3,000 times like students, what would you share with a stranger?

What would you tell a total stranger? Hey, nice to meet you. This is my bank account. And here is my mother's maiden name. Also know this is my deepest, darkest sin. And it's like, ah, I just want you to know the real me. Yes. Before we go any further, you need to know this about me.

And would you tell that to a stranger? And almost all of the students, this semester there's 116 in there, all of them are like, of course not. And then I say, okay, well, why do you do that on your first date with people? Like, why are you going so deep, so quickly? It's because you have this weird understanding of roles. So what is that first date more like an acquaintance? You've just met this person. What would you tell an acquaintance?

Someone you work with, someone that you don't know super well. you're going to start to steward information and slide it over to them and say, hey, I was raised in this part of town. And then they're going to say, I was raised in this part of town. So that understanding of we're like an acquaintance, we've just met, we've just started dating, our first three months. And this is not a biblical number. So let's not develop like a weird, but it's like our first three months were acquaintances that are moving closer to a friendship. Yeah. And then after three months, we're more like friends in a dating relationship.

but we're not best friends. I don't know everything about you. So we're spending the next three to six months getting to know each other as friends. Okay, so what would you do with a friend? Mutually enjoyable things. There's a depth of communication that starts to increase. You're looking for conflict resolution. You're ensuring that they're honoring and serving you and prioritizing you as well, like you're looking for, I initiated conversation. They initiated conversation. What would I expect of a friend? That's what I expect of someone I've been dating for four months. Yeah. And the reason that matters is because if you have no expectations, you can get mistreated in a dating relationship. Like, that's the proverbial guy that has a lady that just kind of bosses him around or vice versa for a

lady that the guy is mistreating her and she's just along for the ride. She allows him to treat her sinfully and unbiblically. And it's like, yeah, that's not okay. Yeah. Because you should expect a friend to treat you in a certain way. Yeah. So tease that out. Like, how did I know what to expect? How did I know what to communicate? I understand roles and relationships. We're not an acquaintance anymore. Like, we've been dating for five months. We're friends. And you're treating me like an acquaintance or you're keeping me at an arm's distance. So you're not telling me things of depth. So what changed my understanding? So think of understanding roles is like this foundational skill. And you're like, Greg, where do you get that in the Bible? I think that as

soon as you start to say, how does the Bible communicate the way we relate to each other? You see it everywhere. There's like rapid fire passages. I have my scripture open here to Colossians 3. You have wives as a role, husbands as a role, children as a role, fathers as a role, slaves as a role, masters as a role. So there's six at the end of chapter three, beginning of chapter four. The way that a master treats a slave is different from the way that a slave treats a master. The way that a father treats a child is different from the way that a child treats a father. Wife is different from husband, husband's different from wife. Why does that matter? Because when I understand roles, it allows me to begin to know how do we relate to each other according to

the Bible. What are we? What are we? So we've heard the idea of like a DTR. You've got to define the relationship. How do you DTR? You do you DTR? You do ETR according to the scripture. Like, what are we doing here? What is this? So back to dating. Connected to dating. Like, what are you doing in the dating? It's like, we're moving from acquaintance to friend. We've been dating for six to nine months. We like each other a lot. Like, it's still moving forward. You're not legislating the timeline. You're just giving examples. Right. I think it's pretty typical. Yeah. Especially in a college context where there might be someone that's 33 listening going like, I don't want to waste my time. Totally. So I think,

the timeline might change depending upon your stage of life. Stage of life, and if you knew the person before. For sure. Because if you knew the person before, usually the wedding is like in two weeks. You started dating, we're getting married. For sure. And everyone's like, yeah. Yeah.

But also note like, no matter the stage of life, you're probably not talking about marriage the first month. Yeah. You know, like you're not talking about how many kids you're going to have and whose house you're going to sell. Yeah. And even if you're 45, you should still be governing those types of conversations to a degree, because you're getting to know each other. Yeah. So yeah, don't waste time.

We're not wasting time. And I think the older you get, the more you feel that pressure to not waste time. Which puts more pressure on the relationship. Right. Yeah. Which can actually sabotage the relationship because you've been dating for three months.

And you're like, so are we getting married and where are we retiring? And it's like, well, hang on me. Yeah. You've got my family. Right. It's like, what's my middle name? You know, like, let's still get to know each other.

Yeah. It's Eugene, by the way. Is it? Yeah, you're welcome. Greg Eugene Gifford. Sorry, man. I tried to push for it for my sons. My wife was like, they get Gifford, but they do not get Gifford.

So your initial spelled out as Gigg. Yeah, thanks for taking me back to my fourth grade. 100%, dude. I like it. Yeah, no, you don't like it. You're just trying to be kind, so I appreciate that. So long story short, away from the middle name. I'm trying to divert.

No, I don't want to stay here anymore. I want to move on. Okay, go on. the reality is that season of life impacts it, but we're still thinking there's stages. Yeah. And the stage is like, okay, friend. And then once everything's going well,

they love Christ, we love Christ, we move from friend to best friend. Yeah, it's like, we're committed. Like, we're starting to talk about engagement. We've met the families. We've got the blessing from families and pastors and spiritual leaders. Like, that's the, that is the final stage.

And so then we'll go back to this maybe in a little bit, but think of the way you communicate each of those seasons, like what would you say to a stranger? That's how I started it. That's different from what you would say to a best friend. What would I say to an acquaintance? That's still different from what I would say to a friend. So knowing those roles is really going to help you facilitate communication. Primarily how deep you go and ensuring that you are volunteering information. You are speaking the truth in love. But if you've been dating for nine months and you don't know each other's middle name, which is really good middle name. Yeah, Eugene.

If you don't know that, then it's like, well, what, like, are you, are you really as far along in your relationship as you think you are? Knowing that role helps you know, like, what I should say, what I shouldn't say. And for some of us, when you're at month nine, it's like, you need to speak up. You need to be more communicative. You need to talk about that thing in the past that is affecting you, so forth. Yeah, you know, I, it's funny because, you know, I remember when I was first dating someone, you know, I felt like, That was just the pillar of maturity to just kind of go on a walk to the gate, you know? And I said, hey, listen, I want you to know if I didn't think marriage was an option, we would not be on this walk.

I was just like, full braces to a meter's old. And I remember just walking home, going like, thank you, God, that I'm so godly. This girl was probably amazed by me. And then I look back, I go, what a weirdo? Like, who says that? You know, like, hey, just want to let FYI, I take this walk seriously. I, you know, I think that, and there's obviously, you're coming at it from a Bible university. A lot of people are approaching subject from, like, just the workplace.

It's like, it's just a disaster out there in the sense of like everyone, it's just willy-nilly. People are toying around with people's hearts and, like, no intentionality. And so there's obviously the environment that you're in. and I'm in with you right now. And then there's the, I'm a, I work at Salesforce in Austin and I'm 30 and it's just terrible. And there's like a young professionals ministry and we just all date each other and it never goes anywhere. So I think that defining the roles is really important from an acquaintance perspective of going, hey, I'm just not going to, I'm not going to give you everything.

I want to get to know you. I want to share interests and hobbies. Let's do something fun. Let's not overthink it. Like come me, and this is even for me, like I used to think it was like, I had know if I was going to marry a girl to bring her around my family. That's a lot of pressure. Yeah, but now it's like, I tell everyone, do it like the third date.

You know, like, I mean, like, if it's an acquaintance, you bring your acquaintances around your family. That's part of how I know. Yeah, like, how this goes. Yeah, but somehow it's like, well, if it's a girl, then I, or a guy, then, like, I have to know. And I know, maybe that people would disagree with that, but it's like, I'm not, I would want to do it before it means something, you know, depending on your family situation. But I'd be like, I would want you to get to know them.

in front of me. Like when my daughter start to date, I'm like, oh, there's a guy, kind of cool. I don't care. You don't have to know if you like him. Just bring him over, hang out. You know, I'm not going to ask him about, like, what he wants to be when he's older.

That's using right now as a parent, man. Yeah, but I think that's kind of one of those things. So let's go back to this transition from acquaintance to friend. You called it a DTR. You know, I had that conversation with Katie, like, so early because it was like I was 27 or 26. And I think I just told her you're my girlfriend, you know. And then I said,

you didn't respond to me and she said well you didn't ask me you just told me i was like okay you know but like is that a conversation to move from like hey we've been getting to know each other um i consider you my friend you know i'm just trying to think like how does this play out because i think people need like actual and i had people in my life that are like johnny don't be weird about this sure but not everyone has the like don't be a weirdo you know especially to guys yeah so like what's the transition from acquaintance to friend how does that literally go because I think it, there's no verse, but there are like, hey, how would you go about it? If this was your son and he's like, I've been dating this girl for two months, dad,

I like her, she likes me, we hang out, I know her middle name, she knows my middle name. I want to make, I want her to be my girlfriend. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like, what would you say? Who are my girlfriend? Is that a question? Hey, I just like to say it how it is. It's like naming it and claim it, Johnny.

I respect that. You are, right? You are. She's like, I am. I think I just froze until I. girlfriend right you're my girlfriend exactly how would you tell someone to kind of go about that conversation yeah well that's good communication because I would imagine if it's month two it's like okay what are we and I'll ask people this and I do mean it graciously

it's like could someone else talk to them the way you do and you would be okay with that because when people say we're just friends it's like oh that's and maybe you are and I'll feel yes so could someone else talk to that person the way you talk to them and hang out with them the way you hang out with them and you would be just fine with that Because if you would say yes, absolutely, it's like, yeah, you are just friends. But if you're like, no, man, like, no other dude better be calling her like this and taking her out. It's like, okay, well, you need to clarify the nature of your relationship. And typically, that is you are either dating and that is the term or it's your girlfriend boyfriend,

I think younger would say dating. Older generation would say, yeah, we're girlfriend boyfriend. And all you... I'm out of touch. You are, dude. Go ahead. Let me tell you. But the reality is that whatever you call it, you're having to communicate the nature of our relationship.

Like, you wouldn't want to do it for nine months and be like, yeah, we just hang out all the time. That just feels like if I'm a lady and a guy is unwilling to commit to a dating relationship, like what do I think is going to happen if I stick around? Non-committal about engagement, non-committal about marriage. It's like that feels like a seven-year dating relationship that's starting to form right now. There's a lot of those. Yeah, and that's where it's like you, you, I do think each person has a hand to play in those because you didn't DTR that earlier on.

And you didn't say, hey, I am so sorry, but we've been dating for a year and a half, almost two years. And we really need to have a conversation about what's going on here. Yeah. So yeah, so communicate, call that what you want, girlfriend, boyfriend, dating. And then it's like, yeah, so what are you doing for the next three, six months? We're dating. We're getting to know each other.

we're doing Thanksgiving at your place, Easter at mine. And all of those, what begins to happen. And I think this principle will be true if you're 30 in dating or if you're 22 in dating, is that we need a season of just dating. I don't know you yet. I've seen your resume, so to speak, but I don't know who you really are. I want to get to know you. I want to see what kind of walk you have before the Lord.

I want to see the way that you repent of sin. I want to see the way that you honor Christ. I want to get to know your church friends and see like you have a church and you have friends. All of that is going to be like a timeless principle. And even if I'm 30, that principle is still true of like there is a season of, I'm not even thinking about marriage in terms of this person. I'm wanting to get to know this person to see if they do meet the qualifications for marriage.

And I do want to marry them as a person. Yeah, I can kind of put like a lot of, you're filtering every conversation through a grid, you know or every conversation in dating like i talk to guys about this or once a week they have like the where are we conversation with the girl that they're dating because there's so much pressure on it and kind of to your point sabotages and cripples the ability just to be friends and i think there's obviously and i'm going back to this like a depending on the environment you're in you may be like all intentional or have no intentionality and so i think that's where you have to use some like biblical discernment of like and and use the people in your life like a lot of people date

in isolation, especially if it's like a long distance relationship, even going back to online dating. I think there's no verse that it says online dating is wrong, but I would always encourage someone. And I tell someone, it's not wrong. Make sure you're around their people, not just them. 100%. And make sure they're around your people. And if it's a woman, it's like, hey, you might not have a dad that's involved in the process. But get some spiritual fathers kind of in your life to help you navigate the conversation. And don't be just to add an emphasis there, don't be comprehensive. If that person is willing to orient their life completely around you on week two. That's more of a red flag than it is a compliment.

It's like, wait a minute. You should have a people. You should have a family and friends. Yeah, there should be attention. Yeah, you should not be willing to go all in on me in week two. Like that's a concern for me, not a compliment. How would you navigate the conversation? And I think kind of going that stage and honestly, I kind of, I would say we, you know,

personally with Katie, I mean, I met her. I was like, she was leaving. I lived on a mountain. I said, all right, I want to date you. You know, because I was not going to see her, right? Like, it was like, I got to make a move here. Yeah, you have to define the role. And I told her, my girlfriend.

You are my girlfriend. We dated for seven months. We were engaged for three. We were married within a year of when we met. It was kind of, you know, 11 months. There were things where I would say, like, the process of acquaintance and friend was conflated. Like, it was almost one process because it was like,

just the nature of the relationship. Every time I was with her, I was with her family, and it kind of like blended together. So it's not, I don't think you're saying it's three chunks. Sometimes those things become like, oh, well, this is my friend, but they're becoming my best friend. Right. Right.

And it's not saying you can't really enjoy someone as you're a good friend in week four. You know, like, or like you enjoy them like a friend, even though there's things you don't know about them, right? Like, how do you, let's just say as an example, it's someone that you don't know they love the Lord, let's say they love the Lord, they're not just a Christian,

but there's things about them that you're like, I don't know where they stand on these things theologically, or I'm not sure if they serve in the church the way that I serve in the church. How do you evaluate those things and give room for people to grow spiritually without feeling like they're checking boxes

that fit your preconceived idea of whose marriage quality? Good. Yeah, good because I think the earlier you are in life, the more of those that have to be developed. Yeah. And the later in life, the more that are probably settled. Yeah. I'm having to ask, are those going to change if we continue this way? Yeah. Convictions are things that we develop from the scripture, and that's something like wife wants to stay at home. He's going to be the primary red winner conviction is like where are you going to live, who you want to live by. theological convictions, there's your absolutes.

We didn't start dating without you being a Christian and agreeing like you believe in the gospel resurrection. And then you're going to have convictions that are secondary doctrinal matters. And those are things that you can be a Christian and disagree on, but it's going to have a big impact. So if I'm super reformed and you're not, then that's going to come out in a dating relationship. So what you're looking for in that is not, I don't want you to renegotiate your theological convictions. right now, but I want to know what they are, for sure. And if you're going to an assembly of God church and I'm not, like I do want to know that to a degree.

Yeah. And then I'm going to be watching, like, are you willing to renegotiate some of your convictions based off the word of God? And am I willing to do the same thing? Based on scripture. So if I change that on week one, red flag. Yeah. Because it's like, yeah, I'll believe whatever you believe.

Let's go to your church. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on a second. No, no, no. but you're not looking for someone to men in black like their theological perspective and zap their memory and then you like start rebuilding what they should believe it feels like a very controlling relationship under spiritual terminology it's like what what allowance do you give for discipleship like hypothetical i'm a guy this girl is great she's very weak theologically in her understanding of things but a tender heart for the law Lord.

Maybe it's the wrong world. She's just new. She's new to the faith and I grew up as a pastor's kid. Oh yeah. Type of thing. So spiritual. Or like, I'm a missionary, but she loves the Lord. We have a great time.

Or vice versa. I'm a, you know, I've been serving in the church my whole life. This guy just got rocked to his core by the gospel. Yeah. Was living in the world, didn't grow up in a Christian family. Does that change the way you go about those stages in a sense of like, well, They're a believer, they're getting disciples, you know. As a woman or as a girl, I'm actually coordinating his discipleship saying you should get, you know.

Talk to Johnny. Yeah. Here's Bob and Jim, you know. And over that tier of time, those guys sign off on his life and he's really hungry for the Word of God. I'm just thinking like not everyone in not everyone meets a spouse at a Christian university or grew up the same way. Right. That's, I think, you know, that would be great, but it's not the reality. I mean, my grandparents got saved when they were, you know, in their adulthood with my dad, when my dad was eight, you know, like things like that happens.

So how would you say that shapes the stages? Well, I think the foundational stages, you see the fruit of the spirit, Galatians 5. Yeah. And you're using those aspect to help see they are walking in the spirit, keeping in step with the spirit, Galatians 526. They have a commitment to the Bible. and the authority, inspiration, and errancy sufficiency, like they are committed to the Bible. And maybe they're brand new, like just got saved last year,

but they're demonstrating the fruit of the spirit and they have a high view of scripture. It's all good. Yeah. It's all good, seriously, because what we know is, you love Christ, you love His Word, and over time our convictions will line up. Yeah.

And I may need to actually change some of mine in all seriousness to renegotiate it back to the authority of Scripture. But that person will catch up over time. being led by the spirit. That's right. And when the Bible is the authority for our relationship, we're both coming underneath the scripture to honor Christ. And I think a person can say, yeah, like maybe I've been walking with the Lord longer

and I know more theology, but they are a great candidate. And this is usually a guy, gal, like the gal is more mature. She's been saved longer. He just got saved. I think she should totally be free to say, yeah, keep dating him and watch his commitment to Christ and commitment to the word, catch up to yours. And that'll be such a beautiful thing to witness. You know, it's fine. I think two people sometimes feel the pressure of pedigree, like, I need to marry someone that came from the same background, shares.

Oh, okay. You know, like, we're a good fit based on our backgrounds. Yeah. But I think that element to being spiritual led is so important. And make sure that you have the right evaluation of spiritual maturity. In a higher education place, we can think spiritual maturity is knowledge. but some people are never going to be readers and some people are never going to be writers. Yeah.

That's not their giftedness. They're doers and servers. They're your deacon, deaconess. Yeah, that's his word. So I think if you're measured, it's like, oh, you don't read John Calvin. Like, wow, you don't love God. Yeah, it's like, well, that's a heavy standard. But it's like, oh, I actually see you serving in the church.

You're the AV guy in the back. Oh, great. That's an encouraging sign to me, even though you don't read Calvin. you're more of a doer. So make sure the measurement of spiritual maturity is accurate. And Katie might kill me for saying this. But when I started dating Katie, I think she thought John MacArthur and John Calvin were the same person.

When I said, I talked to John MacArthur, she said, what do you mean? And I said, through a necromancer? So she denies it, but I know she thinks they were saying. I think that's great. Because she had grown up in a totally different environment. Yeah, totally.

I was so grateful for. That's why she's good for you. Yeah, she's the best. And so, well, Greg, this is all really helpful. Thanks for just the biblical principles in regards to the topic. To listen to more of Greg's stuff, head to the Fortis Institute. Greg, you release episodes every week on your podcast? Yep, that's right.

Great podcast. Really respect Greg's material. Thanks for everything you do to help us navigate just Christian living through a biblical perspective. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate you, brother.