Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - A Theology of Exercise: Why Christians Should Train Their Bodies for God's Glory

Episode Date: July 7, 2026

What does the Bible actually say about exercise, fitness, and taking care of your body? In this conversation, a Desiring God pastor and author A Theology of Exercise: Why Christians Should Train Their Bodies for God's Glory unpacks a biblical theology of exercise — covering the six-layer biblical story of the human body (creation, the fall, the incarnation, the indwelling Holy Spirit, obedience, and future glorification), how to think about 1 Timothy 4:8 ("bodily training is of some value"), and why sedentary modern life and body-idolatry are two ditches to avoid.This episode is brought to you by our ministry partner Accountable2You. Join thousands living in freedom with nothing to hide, and visit https://accountable2you.com/dialin. Use our unique code DIALIN to get 25% off your first year of an Accountable2You Personal or Family PlanTopics covered: Why exercise matters for the mind, will, joy, and love of othersBodily discipline and Christian stewardship of the bodyThe connection between physical exercise and mental clarity (John Ratey's "Spark")Competition, sports, and a Christian view of winning and losingPractical advice for sedentary Christians who want to start exercisingHow pastors and knowledge workers can build sustainable fitness habitsA theology of the body: from creation to resurrectionGreat for anyone interested in Christian living, biblical theology, faith and fitness, health and wellness from a Christian worldview, or building sustainable exercise habits for the long term (a "ten-year plan," not a quick fix).📖 Learn more and find the book at DesiringGod.org

This episode of Dialand is brought to you by Crossway, publisher of the pleasures of God, Meditations on God's Delight and Being God. And this beloved classic pastor and best-selling author, John Piper, searches Scripture to uncover the pleasures that delight the heart of God. Each chapter focuses on a specific joy, the glory of his son, the beauty of creation, the richness of his grace, the prayers of his people, and more. Pick up a copy of the pleasures of God wherever books are sold, or visit crossway.org forward slash pleasures of God

to get 30% off with a free Crossway Plus account. Sometimes we think that the scripture is lacking and maybe instruction or guidance or principles regarding how we view exercise, but guidance from God's word and how we should approach the subject. We live in this mixed world. We're in a, the 21st century is polarized

in being so sedentary on the one hand and looking at the body with such idolatry-type purported. The work that you're doing on your body, instead of being sedentary, should be of service when you would use your body to help other people. Talk about why we exercise and then after that, what would you say to the person, David, who maybe just lacks motivation? You just have someone that's just like, I hate it. I hate exercise. I hate going on a walk. How would you encourage them? I think it's so helpful to think about how the Bible tells a story about the human body. So it's not just middle road. It's not just too ditches. to avoid, but we have a layered story about our bodies. And I'll run through it super quick. Hey folks, my name is Johnny Erdoganus, and this is Dial in Ministries. Today I have the privilege

of sitting down with David Mathis, who just wrote last year a book, A Little Theology of Exercise. I've read it at this point a couple times and reached out to David and wanted to have a conversation about exercise from a biblical perspective. But David, before we jump into the heart of the message, Just tell people what you do, how you serve the Lord, and so they know a little bit more about you. Sure. Johnny, nice to be talking to you. I'm sitting here in St. Paul, Minnesota. I'm a father of four and a husband and a pastor at City's Church in St. Paul. And my day job, my full-time work is with this Desiring God ministry, which, man, I've been with Desiring God now for over 20 years. I'm executive editor and senior teacher, and that's how I get to write some books and travel and to speak through desiring God. Well, I love it. Well, thank you for joining us. You know, one of the things that sometimes people ask me as it relates to anything that I'm

working on is just, hey, what was the heart behind this? You know, what propelled and compelled you to write a book on exercise? You mentioned it's a little bit of an unusual subject, and yet it's a subject that everybody probably has thoughts about. And sometimes we think that the scripture is lacking and maybe instruction or guidance or principles regarding how we view exercise. But I'd love to just kind of big idea here initially, what prompted you to write a book entitled A Little Theology of Exercise and even that word theology, meaning that there's some sort of guidance from God's Word and how we should approach

the subject. Yeah, the little theology of exercise is a taste of a long 10-year journey. I have an active childhood, teenage years playing baseball, even while being a college student and doing college ministry. But I lived a very sedentary life from maybe 2007 to 2015. I was serving as executive assistant to John Piper. I would travel around with him. I was always on the email. My first day on the job, they gave me a laptop computer and a Blackberry phone. I thought that was so cool.

BlackBerry. Bring them back. Before iPhone, I didn't realize these are like the new emblems of my sedentary lifestyle. And so for eight years or so there, I did not exercise much. I didn't get into a pattern. You heard about the freshman 15 on the college campus. I put on a good freshman 20 in my first couple years of marriage and more than that. I got to 2015 and my energy levels were low.

I tried to get back into exercise and I couldn't quite break the seal. and I'm walking around the lake one day, in Minnesota Lake with my wife, kind of belly aching about how I can get into exercise. I don't have time for this. And she called me on it and said, you have time for what really matters in life. Like you have time for your nice leisurely devotions in the morning.

Why don't you try some morning time three times a week? And so I took her up on the challenge. And trying to exercise in the morning was transformative for me. And so that began the journey in 2015. And honestly, I mean, I was a pastor and a Christian, but I didn't jump in for theological reasons. I just, the doctor said I had a cholesterol number and I'm 40 pounds overweight. And I knew I would feel better if I was active. And so for very kind of normal human reasons, I got into it.

It wasn't spiritually motivated. But as I was doing it, I thought, I need to have a theology for this. Like, what does the Bible say about this? as a pastor, as a theologian, what's my theology for this, is this became part of my life during the 20 teens? And that's what comes out of it in the book. I think it was, at first I wrote one article at Desiring God. I thought, I can do this once, one time, I'll write about it. That'll be it. It'll be done. And afterwards, my managing editor, who's now our CEO, Marshall Segal, he said, how about one more? One more article.

I said, okay, one more. I think I can say one more thing. And then a buddy in mine, Crossway Books, came back and said, what do you think about a short book on this? And this is 2019 when he said this. And I said, I got to live in this longer. Like, this can't just be theory. Like, this has got to be life. This has to be real. And so it was another five years plus before I came back and said, okay, let's do it. I think there's something to this. I don't need to write a big theology of exercise, just a little one. And so that led to the book that came out last July in 2025. And I've really, you know, appreciated it. And I mentioned, well, as a pastor, you know, personally I tell people like my life is much, maybe like a CPAs, I sit down all day long.

I'm in meetings or I'm studying or I'm writing. Unless I go and proactively exercise, you know, I got an Apple watch on that tracks my steps. Unless I go to the gym, most likely I'll end the day with 3,000 steps. I don't really do, you know, on a weekday because I'm not out and about. you know, maybe on a Monday, which is my day off, typically I'll work outside in the yard, I'll clean the house, things like that, and I'll get like a normal amount of human movement. And you talk about this in your book that we live in subnormal, kind of ranges of human activity now in a media, digital technological age, like post-industrial revolution. We're not farmers, we're not laborers, we're not

stonemasons, we're not carpenters like Jesus. I would say some of us, you know, other people have like an active job. They're out and about. But it was something that I've been wanting to think through biblically because I go, unless I go and pursue exercise, I get very little of it, naturally speaking. So maybe just hop into the substance of what you've written on. You talk about like a theology of her body, and I think that's a good place to start because I think there's probably some misconceptions regarding our body. You mentioned the C.S. Lewis kind of quote at the beginning of your book that some people

view their body as a tomb of the soul, and that's a pagan way of viewing it. but I think sometimes Christians view it the same way, like, hey, all that matters is my heart, my body is wasting away. Paul says in Second Corinthians 5 that this body is a tent and I'm just longing to be with Christ. So this is just kind of like a sack of sin that's one day going to be discarded. It's irrelevant. And then other people glorify their body. And, you know, it's all that matters. We live in an aesthetic world, digital world, people with plasticity and pretend and makeup and editing. And then there's kind of what C.S. Lewis refers to, and you talk about this, like, my brother's ass in a sense of, like, his brother's donkey. It's useful. It's utilitarian. It accomplishes a purpose. But we're really not lacking as it relates to a theology of the body, you know, as we look to God's word. So maybe just start there because I think it was, it was, I thought, needed the way that you addressed it in your book. You know, the internet and these screens in all of online life is such a microcosm

in the tensions because here we are, you know, sitting down, peccanoid or keyboards or looking at these devices rather than out running about. And then we're looking at these meticulously sculpted and enhanced images of bodies that are involved with all the advertising and selling and avatars on various accounts. So we live in this mixed world. We're in a 21st century is polarized in being so sedentary on the one hand and looking at the body with such idolatry type proportions on the other. So you can do the two ditches thing. But then when you get to the middle road that C.S. Lewis called brother ass because brother, because you love a good, faithful donkey. But donkey can also be stubborn and difficult. And so in,

But in looking in that middle road, I think it's so helpful to think about how the Bible tells a story about the human body. So it's not just middle road. It's not just two ditches to avoid, but we have a layered story about our bodies. And I'll run through it super quick. You could make it longer than this, but here's quick layers. One, God made it. So there's a layer of creation. He made your body.

It's amazing. The human brain is stunning past finding out. The human body is remarkable. The human body is fallen. It's under the curse of creation, and we have indwelling sin in us. So the fall is part of the story of all of our bodies. And God himself took a human body in the person of his son, which is so amazing. What a dignifying of the human body that when the creator himself enters in to the creation,

he does so in human flesh and blood in Jesus of Nazareth. So the dignifying of the human body. with God himself is stunning. And right with it, another layer is God makes his spirit to dwell in these bodies. So the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that goes with the indwelling of our sin in this age is a significant reality we got to reckon with our human bodies. And why, as Christians, we got a lot more to say about the body than non-Christians do. We got a Holy Spirit endwelling component to deal with that's on the table for your exercise and for pursuing some bodily discipline. It's in that body. It's like a fifth layer that we live our Christian lives. We obey in our bodies.

We have commands for our bodies for self-control. That's where we live our lives in these bodies and dwelt by the Holy Spirit. We do real God-pleasing obedience and God-displeasing disobedience in these bodies. And then finally, the last layer is, you guys. a bodily upgrade coming. And it's going to be awesome beyond your imagination. Jesus Christ was raised with a glorified human body and ascended with that body. And he sits on the throne of the universe right now in a fully glorified human body. And Philippians 3 says, we're going to share in that. These bodies that we currently have are called bodies of humiliation. And what we have coming is a body of glory that will be great beyond what we can imagine. And so,

In those layers, you could add more layers, but at least in those six layers, we have the complexities of human life in the body, according to God, according to Christ. And so for Christians, we have a lot that we can think about, theologically, about these bodies. As you head into the summer, one of the things that I would highly encourage you to have is some sort of digital accountability on your devices. The Puritans used to draw our attention to the reality that an idle mind is the devil's playground, meaning that when we are idle and we have time,

We are more vulnerable to temptation. In this regard, I would highly recommend to you accountable to you. It's a purity, accountability software that I use personally and other members of my team do as well. You can go to accountable to you.com slash dial in and use our code dial in to get 25% off your first year. And you can find out more information there. Find an accountability partner. And as my friend says, accountability is the friend of integrity. And that's our goal to honor the Lord when we're alone as we would in front of other people.

and so check out accountable to you.com. Yeah, no, it's really helpful. And I really appreciated what you said. And I've read Nancy Pearsie's book, Love Thy Body, which was so impactful for me and reading through that. So now that you've kind of established the value of the body, like Jesus doesn't, you know, the pagans used to devalue the body.

Jesus appeared in a body, which showed the value of it. Talk about maybe why we exercise. Maybe there's some misconceptions on why we exercise. There's a passage in script, that people go too often to, you know, you've mentioned in your book, and you kind of get there kind of into the book, which I appreciated the way that you did that in First Timothy four. But talk about why we exercise, and then after that, maybe for the person that's lacking motivation for exercise, feels busy, those motivations and catalysts to kind of implementing that into

their regular rhythm. Yeah, so, I mean, Johnny, you mentioned it and said it well in terms of post-industrial revolution, to do justice, like to deal real. realistically with the context in which we live is significant. That's part of doing good theology, even if we're doing little theology, to understand the place where we are and own our place. And for all of us who are living right now, it's not the first century. It's not the 10th century. It's not the 15th century.

It's the 21st century. And there are layers there, not just related to the Industrial Revolution, but also automobiles. that's a massive reality in most of our lives. And then now television and the phones and the screens, which let me just say, like, these gifts of technology are gifts. Like, traveling in an airplane across the Atlantic is an amazing gift, getting in an automobile and being able to get across town

or get to church in 10 or 20 minutes rather than walking an hour and a half or whatever it would be. These are remarkable gifts. and yet as is so often the case with human beings, with our indwelling sin, we take good gifts to our detriment. And so part of doing that theology is first owning the season, the era of history in which we live in. If you're a carpenter, if you're working a blue-collar job, if you're out there doing it on your feet, getting your 10,000, 12,000 steps per day, I don't think you necessarily need exercise. So I mean, I don't think Jesus exercised, according to my definition of exercise, if exercise is voluntary activity undertaken for the sake of fitness and health,

all in exercise that we know of, Jesus didn't exercise, like they just live normal human life. And there are people among us today who do. And then there's pastors. And there's a lot of other knowledge workers who do not. And if we need to own that reality and do so. some of the modest things just to get us up to normal human living that our brains would work the way they should that are that our hearts the human emotions would be able to operate the way they should there's some basic things that need to be in line in terms of how god made us as creatures who move

and super super helpful because i uh yeah i think sometimes there's by by definition or by default there's a lot of people that don't really move i think you call it like sub normal or just movement in our contemporary world. And so maybe biblically speaking, you know, Paul says that bodily exercises of some good, maybe talk to us about what that means and what that doesn't mean. I think sometimes that verse is abused, you know, bodily discipline is of some good, but, you know, godly discipline is of much greater good. And people sometimes use that verse or abuse that verse to say, like, hey, bodily exercise is unnecessary. You know, I'm just a shell and one day I'm going to be redeemed and doesn't matter what my body looks like right now or how I take care of it right now

because one day God's going to give me a glorified body. So maybe talk about that familiar verse. That's probably the premier one that people go to in regards to exercise, how it should be interpreted and then maybe how it's often misinterpreted. That's good. There are two issues there. I think you're right. Probably most people that I've heard over the years quoting 1 Timothy 4-8 about bodily discipline is of some value. but godliness is a value in every way. Probably they're quoting it in a way that is meant to demean the body. Like, look, some value versus value in every way.

So why even bother with the some value? So I think the first thing is to clarify, I think Paul's making a pretty significant concession there. He doesn't say no value. He says, some value. Like, hear the concession. Paul is saying it's of some value. And drawing in Paul's full theology of the body, it's very clear. Paul sees it's of some value.

So that's not zero value. Second, then, consider that civilizational or historical context that he's talking to people where they're all getting like 10 to 15,000 steps a day or more. They're working on their feet all day long. When he's talking about bodily training, he's talking about Olympians. He's talking about people who do unusual amounts of training. And Paul's got a category for saying that's of some value. In fact, I wonder, I don't know if I wondered aloud in this book or it's another one.

At some point I say, I wonder if Paul was a runner. Yeah. Because Paul talks about running a lot. You know, the typical metaphor of the Christian life is walking, which, I mean, in a sedentary society, that's got something to say, that the Christian life is walking. You know, it's steady, step at a time, you're not out of breath. This is the Christian life walking. However, there are moments of running. and usually it's Paul.

Usually Paul wants to talk about, you're running well, you're running, he's got the image in Philippians 3, reaching out to obtain the prize, like the apostle, Paul, I wonder if he was a runner. He at least appreciated running. He's also the one who mentions boxing.

So Paul's got a theology there, and I think what he says, that's of some value. He's talking about unusual training. I mean, I have to be honest, when I think about bodybuilding, when I think about the folks who are competing at world-class levels, doing that level of competition, that honestly strains me. I'm like, oh, how many hours a day can you work on your body?

And then I remember 1st Timothy 4-8, Paul says some value. Now, don't let that take over your life. Don't let some value take over a life of the pursuit of godliness that is a value in every way. But is the one thing I want to add practically, what if your investment in that sum value clearly lines up to serve the greater value of godliness? So it's not like, hey, I'm pursuing godliness in my life with most of my waking hours. And you know what? I'm going to lay, I'm going to put aside this 30 minutes to the sum value. It's a different thing.

Rather, I would say, no, no, no, that 30, 40 minutes that you're investing in the bodily training, if that's why you want to call it. Make that in service of your godliness. What's holding you back from that? Paul's not. Nobody's holding you back from that as a Christian. How might your pursuit of the training you're called to do because of your life in this age,

how might that serve your godliness rather than compete with it? And I think sometimes a lot of people compartmentalize physical exercise from spiritual exercise. And I think you talked about this either in your book or in a podcast that I was listening to you about it, like, hey, if you're going to spend 40 minutes, you know, spending time with the Lord, maybe you take 20 of those minutes and go on a walk while you listen to the scripture and you ruminate and meditate on the truth of scripture.

And as if they were competing priorities. Like I spend 30 minutes with God and then I spend 30 minutes, you know, working on my body for my physical health. But those are not exclusive realities. And I mentioned this to you before we hopped on. But just Martin Lloyd-Jones in his book, Spiritual Depression, talks about how, you know, we're embodied beings, we're body, soul, and mind. and we cannot separate the physical from the spiritual. I've talked to, you know, preached on Elijah in First Kings 19 and his despair.

God does proclaim his character, but the first thing that God does is give him a nap and a snack because who we are physically affects who we are spiritually. And I think that's probably an underplayed reality, maybe under-realized, under-talked about, because sometimes Christians don't talk about exercise because they're afraid of coming across shallow. And in doing so,

because a lot of the motivation, I want to talk about this in a moment, like the motivations for why we exercise are different than that of the world. We're not just trying to get ripped. As to your point, we're trying to enable our minds and bodies to think rightly about God

and to glorify Him. But I think people kind of steer clear of those realities. So going along with what you said, how does exercise, if it's for the glory of God and our motivation is different than just someone that doesn't know the Lord Jesus,

how does it show? shape the way that our minds work, our brains work. You're a thinker, you're a writer, you're a pastor, you're a teacher, an editor. What have you found in the research that you've done just about the way that our physical exercise affects our mental capabilities because we're made in the image of God?

What does that mean to be made in the image of an invisible God? Well, at bare minimum, we're given an intellect, we're given a mind. So how does our physical exercise affect our mental ability to think and grapple? and so forth. Yeah, that's good.

So you set it up just right there, Johnny, like the banner, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all of the glory of God. So that's the big banner. I want, knowing from the Bible, God made me and the world for his glory. He wrote the story of history that his son could be the hero, and I want him to be glorified in my life.

And then underneath that, this is how I structure the second half of the book, is motivations for the mind, the heart or joy, the will, and then love's sake for the good of others. So to take the mind peace, this was really significant for me. I think I had gotten back into exercise for a bit, and doing it in the morning rather than at night meant that I was feeling some effects of it during the day,

the positive effects. I felt like, I think I think clearer. I feel like I have more mental energy. I kind of think I can pay attention. to stuff longer after I've gone for a good run, I could just sit there in an hour-long lecture if I needed to. I mean, there were mental benefits related to focus, clarity, creativity, brain power. I just felt like the fog would spread, would go away. And I was like, I'm not opposed to placebo effect. Like, if there's nothing to this except I think I think better, I'm in a roll with it.

But eventually, I came across this John Rady, Harvard psychiatrist, 2008 book. I've done some double-checking on it. The science has not been overturned. It is solid from 2008 called Spark, the science of exercise in the brain, something like that. And he talks in particular about the biological basis for why you do think clearer. when you get the blood pumping and it pushes the blood through the blood brain barrier, the web of capillaries that strain out bacteria from the brain, you get fresh oxygen to the brain and with it neurotransmitters and hormones.

The brain is designed by God to function getting help from the whole body. And that is significantly helped when we move, when we get the heart rate up. And that can be done just with walking. And so that discovery of, wow, there's a cellular basis for this. There's a biological basis. You have, it's on page 59, I was just looking at it because I thought it was so interesting. He says the building of the muscles and the conditioning of the heart and lungs are essentially side effects. Yes.

Of what exercise does for our brains and for our minds. And I thought that was so interesting because sometimes people think about exercise primarily about what it does for the body, for the muscles, and then maybe what it does for the heart. And then from a tertiary perspective, oh yeah, maybe it helps. also helps my thinking. But he says, no, it's primarily it shapes the mind. And then, okay, yeah, the side effects are the body and the heart and the lungs, which I thought was an interesting thing. But yeah, keep going. But I thought that study was so cool. Well, as a Christian, I've received that very positively, not just like, oh, that's, that's an interesting human interest. Like,

we're Christians. We are people of the mind. We are people of a book. Like, when it has mind and mental positive capacities to it, that's a Christian thing. Yeah. And I want people to consider the claims of Christ, consider the arguments for creation, consider the truth of the Bible mentally. So I am positive on the mind. And if this can help my mind, that helps me as a pastor, helps me as an editor, and even as a Christian.

So in terms of discovering this over these last 10, 12 years, just what it does for the brain alone is enough to get me to lace up the shoes, get out there for a 20 to 25 minute run three times a week, or at least to get steps in, to get off the couch, get up out of the chair, and go do something for the sake of my mind. That alone is worth it for me. Yeah, you said that was the first motivation, and then you had a list of a few. Keep on going. Okay, so I'm a Christian hedonist. John Piper talks about God is most glorified in us. when we're most satisfied in him. So with that banner of,

I want God to be glorified in my life, I believe an essential part of that is that I like him. I have joy in him, that he is reflected and seem to be great, to be magnified when I delight in him and desire him and have joy in him. And I have found over these years

my heart at least has less barriers to spiritual Christian joy when I'm exercising. Now, I don't think that exercise alone produces spiritual Christ-glorifying joy. World-class athletes could experience runners' highs and be experienced very natural joys from doing exercise. So I would not say that exercise alone produces spiritual joy. However, if exercise will help get the baggage out of the way, that I'm carrying extra weight,

that there's a fog in my mind for understanding the Bible, and biblical truths, if I'm emotionally encumbered because I'm not treating my body with Christian stewardship, then my joy is encumbered. And I find myself in the little boost of exercise. If I can get a boost and I can turn that Christ word, I can turn that toward joy and God, if it can help rather than hurt, I'm all in. I want to live with joy to endure suffering and endure life's hardships, I want joy. And if the exercise component can help with joy, I'm all in. Yeah, I love, you know, you mentioned the quote by Eric Little.

You know, when I run, I feel God's pleasure. And just the fact that our bodies were designed to move, right? So I think that it is, you know, conducive to our joy and to, you know, finding joy in the Lord when we use those bodies. I love the kind of the even the thing you mentioned about. I think it's Da Vinci that he made the observation that 25% of the bones in our body are in our foot or in our feet and just the fact that our bodies are so amazing.

And Newton said that, you know, the thumb alone could prove to me the existence of God. And so our bodies were made to move and were made to, you know, be out and about. And so I thought that was such a cool thing to include because I don't think people often think about exercise through the realm of, I want to know God's pleasure, and I want to honor him, and I want to be like him, and I want to find joy in him,

because sometimes it's just seen through the spectacles of misery. So, okay, that was the second motivation. Keep going unless you have something to tag on there. One thing, this is an illustration from one of my colleagues at Desiring God, Clint. He said, if you get a brand new sports car as a gift from your father, from God, whoever gives you the gift, then one way to honor the giver is take it out for a spin.

Yeah. You know, see what that engine can do. For sure. And, you know, there's an image there. I think often we have these bodies. We've always been in these bodies. We take them for granted. And to get a little help from Da Vinci or Isaac Newton or some great minds that say,

the human body is actually, it's stunning. Amazing. I mean, animal bodies are incredible. And the human body is so much more complex and amazing. Various creatures in nature have their one or maybe their two expertises. But the human body is like a Swiss army knife. It does everything.

It is amazing. And that's just talking body. That's not even getting into brain into neuroscience of the last 25 years when we've had these MRIs. I mean, neuroscience is blowing up. It's amazing. And we're not even close to answering all the questions. It's a human brain.

I think it's fair to say the single most stunning thing in all the universe is the human brain. And that's the highlight of these amazing bodies that God has made. But I digress. I should do the next one. You want another one? No, keep going. Yeah, that's great. The will.

Is this the most surprising one for me? Maybe this is the one that took me the longest to understand. I think I maybe felt the immediate effects of the mental clarity first. started to see the implications for my joy a little bit later, but I think the implications for the human will, for my will, came later on. What I didn't realize is that as I was training my body, and amazing thing is you can see this with bodies. You see somebody, you see the before and after pictures,

and there's a lot of time. If the before and after pictures are very different, then there's a lot of time in between. There's a lot of work in between. There's a lot of sweat in between. There's a lot of times they wanted to stop, and for whatever reason, they kept going. But what happens is the human body is amazingly conditionable.

I mean, linebackers don't come out of nowhere. Ballerinas don't come out of nowhere. Guys who can throw 90-mile-an-hour fastballs or hit a 90-mile-an-hour fastball. You don't just start that up and do that in a few months. They train their whole life to be able to do that. That's because the human body is remarkably conditional. We see it in the body, and I think it's as much, if not more so true, of the soul of the inner person,

which raises the concern of what we're doing to ourselves when we're scrolling these algorithms as we're conditioning our minds and souls with the content that's being fed to us. That's another issue. But one issue is in working the body, in making the choice to do the hard thing, to embrace, solve bigger reward on the other side of difficulty and exercise, you're conditioning your will to be able to say, when I meet something that's a challenge, just not fold to it like a modern person. So many modern people, they come up against any kind of resistance, any kind of obstacle. And it's like, oh, obstacle, that's where I give in. That's where I back up.

And as we're pushing our body beyond comfort level, we're training our will to say, you know what? when I feel some resistance, that's not an automatic indicator just to cease. Resistance is an opportunity. A lot of life's greatest joys come on the other side of resistance, on the other side of the hill. And so leaning in, with wise measure here, leaning into a challenge is relevant not only an exercise, but in all my life, in my devotions, in loving my wife, in doing my job, and a difficult pastoral appointment. So the conditioning of my will through exercise has implications all throughout the day

and all throughout life that I'd be the kind of person that stands fast, that is ready to embrace an obstacle and not just give in, but lean in, seeking the reward, the joy on the other side. Yeah, you talk about it in the book, but just how a lack of discipline in one area of your life

kind of is emblematic of maybe a lack of discipline in other areas of your life. And so when Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9, you know, I discipline my body, meaning like at some point you have to push through what you're talking about, the resistance. And I think, you know, whether it's a physical, you know, barrier or a mental barrier or something else in life, just working through those things is helpful. So, yeah, what it does to your will.

Did you have one more? The last one to be for love's sake, to love others. I mean, the call to love, which I think can really help when the question comes so often And I got this question at the cross conference from, you know, 18 to 25 year old kids. A lot of them were college athletes. Yeah. It was great to go to that conference and really engage with some, you know, great, good athletes. And one of their question was, how much is too much?

And one of those questions is, it's the love question. So are you, is the work that you're doing on your body in exercise, is that making you a better servant of others? you know, is it giving you strength in your arms to lift a baby or help somebody up or move some boxes? Is it giving you more energy to get off the couch and go help somebody? Or have you filled your life with such training commitments that you are not answering the call to love? There's a chance to use your body, you know, this bodybuilder. And the call comes in like, hey, could you come help us? We've got a new guy moving into the church.

Could you help us move him in? It's like, oh, no, man, I got to go work out. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You have lost perspective at that point. The work that you're doing on your body, instead of being sedentary, should be of service when you would use your body to help other people. And so love's sake, the call to love is significant. I want to be somebody who is ready to do others good. It often requires the body in some form to do good, to do good works, to help people.

to love, tangibly love. And so I want my body to be ready to serve others good. Yeah, and practically be able to bear their burdens. And I think you talk about this a little bit in the book, but obviously the Lord has numbered your days, Psalm 139, all of our days were written in God's book before one of them came to be. And yet we never want to use,

abuse the sovereignty of God as a catalyst of passivity in the stewardship of our bodies because the stewardship of our bodies allows us to obey the one and others, to love one another, serve one another, bear one another's burdens, because it gives you a greater mental capacity, it gives you a greater bodily capacity. You mentioned, at least in the podcast that I was listening to, just like being out of breath and, like, it would, you know, put a dampener on your ability to serve your family.

And so this allows us to do that. And God ordains the means as well as the end. And so I think that's a helpful way to at least think through it. What would you say to the person, David, who maybe just lacks motivation? You mentioned motivations just now, like for God, for, it works for our wills. but then you just have someone that's just like, I hate it. I hate exercise. I hate going on a walk.

How would you encourage them to maybe just start taking simple steps forward, you know, practical things? We've talked about this from a theological perspective, that bodily discipline is of some value. We've talked about some of those motivations, at least from what the scripture says. But just practically, how would you encourage someone who's just isn't interested and doesn't want to be, you know, doesn't want to exercise?

I think first I would hear. them where they are and affirm like, hey, part of this thing is, I mean, exercise is an acquired pleasure. Like, part of the nature of it is, it's uncomfortable. It requires embracing discomfort in some sense or you're not really exercising. So, thanks for your honesty. I hear you, and I want to help by, for a Christian, supplying these motivations of the glory of God, and for the sake of your mind and your heart and your will and love of others. And, If that could help you just, you mentioned simple steps, a simple step is to get some simple steps.

Walking really does count. And folks can find, they can go from very sedentary to finding the capacity to enjoy some walking in a relatively short amount of time. And I think the main thing I would offer is, don't think about this in terms of five days or five weeks or even five months. Like think where you wanna be,

for your joy, for the glory of God, for the good of others, 10 years from now. Like, you don't need to jump in right away. I had a friend of mine, oh, man. He, I don't know if he heard me talking about the stuff or even if read the book or what, but he decided he was going to up and start running in the first two weeks. I think he's trying to run three miles a day, and like he had chinsplants. He was in terrible condition. Like, oh, no, no, no, brother, you can't do this in two weeks.

Like, I'm talking about a 10-year plan here. 10-year plan for the glory of God, because we tend to overestimate what we can do in the short run, and we tend to underestimate what can be done in the long run. I mean, what can be done in 10 years with the conditional, designed human body that God made is amazing. If you will find something realistic, something doable, and then find a way to make it enjoyable. I mean, you may say, I'm so sedentary, I hate walking. and I would say, how could you make walking a little desirable? How could you make it a little enjoyable?

There you go. Could you walk with a beloved spouse or friend? Could you listen to the dial-in podcast? Listen to something you're going to be listening to. Use these phones for a good positive reason. Sprinkle a little audio sugar, so to speak, on your workout to help motivate you to do it and to find something that's realistic for the long term, not something that is so miserable that you're going to be done with it in two weeks.

No, that's really helpful. Last question for you, David, and you wrote the book, came out a little over a year ago. What's one thing now that you're kind of looking back and you're going, okay, if I had to add anything or maybe just maybe a sentence or maybe a section to the book that I hadn't thought of back then, but now in just all the conversations that have unfolded, there's another angle or this or maybe a gilding that I would like to add to what I've written. Yeah, a couple things. I got some great questions at Capitol Hill Baptist last fall from some sharp 20-somethings on Capitol Hill. The cross conference was great, some good questions.

What I mentioned earlier about love being a test of excess, are you saying no to possible avenues of love because I go to work out? I'm going to get my workout in. That's a real test. And I have failed that test, and my wife has called me on it, and I'm learning. And the other thing I've add, this is the surprising thing I keep getting asked about, is how about competition? You know, if you're talking about running, like, what if you're running in a race? Or if you're talking about lifting, like, what if you're trying to beat your PR or beat other people? Or what about team sports?

How does competition relate to this? Is competition necessarily bad? You know, we've got to find a way to just to walk or do things that aren't competitive. So what that's asking for is a little theology of competition. And I'm not announcing a sequel book. I have worked on a short article that I'll hopefully put soon at Desiring God on a theology of competition. And the short of it is, I don't think competition is a bad thing. I do think from a Christian perspective, there are many different ways in which competition is a gift and a blessing.

And when it goes wrong, it's because of our sin. competition reveals our sin. It gives a chance for our sin to come out that it might be dealt with. Our God's a competitive God. He wins. He defeats Satan. He will triumph. And so against the background of the competitive God who is going to glorify himself

and making a finite world, giving us finite boundaries, playing in terms of the game, I think if you embrace a game with teammates, say basketball, say football, say football, baseball, and then you get soft and let the other team win, you're letting your team down. It doesn't glorify God if you don't actually embrace the terms of the competitive game and do your best. And then when you lose or when you win, you act like a Christian, not a child. And if you do act like a child, then that's an opportunity to be sanctified. Something came out of your heart that wouldn't have come out of the heart yet. It will eventually, if it wasn't for the competition.

That's a chance to see it, a chance to address it, and a chance to be sanctified. So I'm in favor of competition, and I think there are a few little things to say about it. Well, I'm excited, and I think just as we close, you know, one of the things I heard Dr. Ferguson Sinclair say one time at the end of a message, isn't it a wonderful day to be a Christian?

Amen. One of the things I love about knowing the Lord and trusting His Word is that the Bible gives us a framework for how we think about everything in our life. And so including exercise. And so really grateful for the work that you've put into this. I'll put the book in the show notes so that you guys can go and purchase it. I would highly recommend it.

David, they can check out other things that you've written on the Desiring God website, I'm assuming. Check out his book Habits of Grace. That's your home. That's where you'll find me. No, well, thank you, brother, for the work that you've put into this. Appreciate you coming on. and God bless you in your ministry. Thank you, Johnny.

Enjoy to talk to you, brother. All right, thanks, brother.