Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - Can You Lose Your Salvation? | How to Know You're Truly Saved (Biblical Assurance)

Episode Date: July 28, 2026

In this episode of Dial In, Jonny and Scott Ardavanis walk through Scripture to answer some of the most important questions every Christian asks:- Can a genuine believer lose their salvation?- What's the difference between eternal security and assurance of salvation?- What does Jesus mean in Matthew 7 when He says, "I never knew you"?- How can you avoid false assurance while enjoying biblical confidence in Christ?This episode is brought to you by our ministry partner Accountable2You. Join thousands living in freedom with nothing to hide, and visit https://accountable2you.com/dialin. Use our unique code DIALIN to get 25% off your first year of an Accountable2You Personal or Family PlanTogether, they examine key passages including John 10, 1 John, Romans 8, Philippians 1, Ephesians 1, and Matthew 7 to show that our security rests in the finished work of Christ while our assurance grows as we walk with Him. They also unpack four biblical evidences of genuine faith found in 1 John that help believers examine themselves without falling into legalism. If you've ever wrestled with doubts about your salvation, wondered whether you're truly saved, or wanted to understand the doctrine of eternal security, this conversation is for you.Scriptures Discussed • John 10:27–30 • Matthew 7:21–23 • 1 John • Romans 8:29–30 • Philippians 1:6 • Ephesians 1:13–14 • Hebrews 6 • Psalm 51If this conversation encouraged you, subscribe for weekly biblical teaching designed to help you know God deeply and live faithfully.

This episode of Dial-in is brought to you by Crossway, publisher of the ESV Applying the Gospel Men's Study Bible, and the ESV applying the Gospel Women's Study Bible. These Bibles feature gospel-centered study notes, daily devotionals, articles, and engaging book introductions designed to help men and women discover Christ in Scripture and apply the gospel to their everyday lives.

Pick up a copy of the ESV applying the gospel study Bible wherever books are sold, or visit crossway.org slash ATGSB. to get 30% off with a free Crossway Plus account. There is going to be on the last day, countless people, according to Jesus, that are looking at ministerial involvement, a profession of faith,

maybe even influence. And Jesus is going to say, I never knew them. Not that he's not aware of their existence, but he never knew them in an intimate way. There's no true relationship. Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven.

What about the person who is in the church, seems like they were walking with the Lord, walked away? You know, did they lose their salvation? Now, for someone listening and they're going, then how do I know I don't have a false security? Right. So what would you say to someone like, how can I then have assurance of my salvation in a way that is of God? Dad, thanks for sitting down again. One of the things that I think has become, you know, a prominent thing not only in my life historically, but one of the things that I talk to people about a lot in ministry, whether they be students,

or more seasoned people in the church is the idea of their assurance of their salvation. How do I know if I'm really saved? And the question that's a part of that is, can I lose my salvation? Can I walk with the Lord in a moment of frustration? Can God just be done with me? You know, and can I lose it? Can I forfeit my salvation? Can someone else lose their salvation?

I want to begin initially by talking about the difference between our eternal security and our assurance of salvation. our eternal security being an objective reality, but our assurance being the experience and confidence in that objective reality. Yes. If you're saved, you're always saved. But let's talk about that for a moment. What's the difference between our security and our assurance?

Yeah, I mean, when you think it's important to distinguish between those two because our eternal security is bound up in the finished work of Christ, in the calling of God that he's chosen his children to be his. And in that choosing and in that calling, he clearly gives eternal security. That's different a little bit than the practical doctrine of assurance. How would you explain that? The subjective doctrine of assurance, meaning that assurance

would be our subjective confidence that we are positionally secure in Christ. Yes. So just from like an idea of can you lose your salvation, Jesus says in John 1028, I give eternal life to them. It can't be eternal life if it's something that could be withdrawn. That would make it temporary life. So if it's not something that's given to us because of our good works, it's not something we're going to lose because of our bad works.

It would be an oxymoron, right, in a contradiction of terms, for Jesus to say that for God to love the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but receive everlasting life. It can't be everlasting or eternal. life if it's something that you could forfeit or it's something that you could lose. And John 10, when Jesus says, I give them eternal life and they will never perish, that's the idea, sometimes in reformed environments, it's called the perseverance of the saints, but really it's called the preservation of the saints because it's God who both saves us and is God who preserves

us. And so we're secure. We're in Christ. Jesus continues and says, they will not perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand. Meaning that the reason we're secure, and this is again different than our assurance, this is an objective reality, our security, is because we are not holding on to the hand of God. Jesus says here, no one will snatch them out of my hand. So this is a work of God both in saving us and in securing us. And sometimes I think, you know, speak to this.

Sometimes we probably make a distinction between those two that God saves us, but then we secure our salvation. and maybe talk about maybe the false thinking that, okay, I know I'm saved by grace, but I'm sustained by the power of Johnny. Yeah, I call it the treadmill of righteousness. We're saved by grace, but somehow we start running on the treadmill of righteousness in our own good works,

thinking that that also is a means for us of attaining to salvation, when the truth is we're completely saved by the grace of God, He caused us to be born again. Ephesians 2, 5. God made us alive. God regenerated us. John 3, we're born again. Gives us a new heart.

It's a miracle of God. It's a miracle. And he does that. And in that, in saving us, that eternal security is bound up in the finished work of Christ and in the Father's choosing, it's not conditioned on what we do. Yeah, and that's,

You see this in John 6, verse 37. He says, all that the Father gives me will come to me. So it's a work of God. And he says, and the one who comes to me, I will certainly not cast out. Verse 39, this is the will of him who sent me, that of all that he has given me, I lose nothing. I lose no one. No one is saved and then falls between the cracks later on in John 17. One of the last things Jesus prays before he's crucified, 1712.

While I was with them, I was keeping them in your name, which you have given me. and I guarded them and not one of them perished, but the son of perdition, that is Judas who was never saved so that the scripture would be fulfilled. So every Christian is a love gift from the father to the son, and Jesus says those whom the father has given me, I'm not half-heartedly holding on to them.

I'm keeping them secure. You know, the illustration is given by R.C. Sprole, and I've mentioned it before, of a father who is walking with his young son along a railroad track, and he says, the father doesn't say to the son, hold tightly onto my hand. The father does what? He holds tightly onto the son.

And so R.C. says, we are secured not because we hold tightly on the Jesus, but because he holds tightly onto us. And that's why Jesus continues in John 10 and says, I will give them eternal life and they will never perish. And no one will snatch them out of my hand. My father who has given them to me is greater than all. And then it says this. And no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand.

So there's this double reality, right, at play where we're doubly secure. We're secured by Jesus and we're secured by the Father. And this is entirely a work of God. So Philippians 1-6, he who began a good work in you is going to carry it out to completion. God doesn't end up in, you know, the end result disappointed by thinking, oh, I thought I had them and they fell from grace. Well, and I would add to that. Certainly you would too.

And, John, there's a twin reality there that no one can. snatch you out of Christ's hand. Then he bolsters that. No one can snatch you out of the father's hand. But of course, in the book of Ephesians, you have all the Trinity at work there that at the moment of our salvation were sealed by the Holy Spirit, which is the down payment of our guarantee. So really, all of the triune character of God is at work in securing our future in glory along his side. Yeah, and just logically, if you could lose your salvation, that would mean that Jesus died for you and then thought you were saved, basically, and then ends up disappointed in glory. You know, so it's like it ends up meaning that when Jesus says, you know, in Isaiah 53,

he will see the travail of his soul and be satisfied. That in the end, God's disappointed. Now, let's just answer the question about, you know, what about the person then, you know, first John talks about this? What about the person who is in the church, seems to be. like they were walking with the Lord, walked away. Did they lose their salvation? What about in Hebrews it says, you know, take care that none of you fall away from the living God. So how do we harmonize those two passages? Can you lose your, what does First John tell us about losing your salvation? Yeah, those are important truths. Certainly we know from the gospel of Matthew when Jesus said, not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven.

And so there could be a false assurance. Yeah, false confidence. And even in 1st John 219, where he says they went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, but they went out that it might become plain that they are not of us. And then verse 20 says, but you have been anointed by the Holy Spirit and you have all knowledge. And so there are people who seemingly come to Christ, seemingly make a decision, but they move away from that work.

And there's no guarantee of their eternal security or the assurance that they would have in their life. And First John talks a lot about that. Yeah, and John's point in here is if they reject Christ, it means that they were never saved in the first place. Right. Because all God has justified, he will sanctify. Yes, he will glorify. He will glorify.

His image. And that's that golden chain you see in Romans. Yes. And so going along with that idea of the fear of a false assurance. So like Jesus does say, you know, many are going to say, not some are going to say, Lord, Lord. And they were not just this, they're not back row Baptist that say this. It's people that didn't we prophesy in your name and in your name cast out.

Right. So this is, there is going to be on the last day, countless people, according to Jesus, that are looking at ministerial involvement, a profession of faith, maybe even influence. And Jesus is going to say, I never knew them. Not that he's not aware of their existence, but he never knew them in an intimate way. There's no, there's no true relationship. As you had into the summer, one of the things that I would highly encourage you to have is some sort of digital account. accountability on your devices. The Puritans used to draw our attention to the reality that an

idle mind is the devil's playground, meaning that when we are idle and we have time, we are more vulnerable to temptation. In this regard, I would highly recommend you accountable to you. It's a purity, accountability software that I use personally and other members of my team do as well. You can go to accountable to you.com slash dial in and use our code dial in to get 25% off your first year. And you can find out more information there. Find an accountability partner. And as my friend says, Accountability is the friend of integrity, and that's our goal to honor the Lord when we're alone as we would in front of other people. And so check out accountable to you.com. If we're just going to step back for a moment, our assurance of salvation is the subjective and experiential confidence of our security of salvation.

Security is a positional reality. We've been saved by God. It is an accomplished fact. It's not progressing. It's not waning. we've been justified already declared righteous. Our assurance is sometimes a waxing and waning reality and our confidence of that positional reality.

Now, for someone listening and they're going, well, then how do I know I don't have a false security? Right. So how do I know that I'm not like the one in Matthew? Right. What would you say to someone like, how can I then have assurance of my salvation in a way that is of God?

And the point of First John is not to prove to professing believers that they're not saved. It's the opposite. He's writing these things to you so that you would know without a shadow of a doubt you've been changed by God. And one of the things that I tell students and I told the people at my church

and something I tell my own heart is that it is God's will for our life in First Peter that our calling an election be sure. He wants us to have confidence of our salvation. Just like I want my children to know their art of anises. That's what God desires for us to know

that we're a part of his family. That's right. So what are the main principles that help us think through assurance, you know, that we would be able to derive the confidence of our security. And how do we think through those principles in a way where we're not constantly evaluating the fruit of our life and constantly looking at the man in the mirror

and evaluating our navel in an unbiblical way where we start to look more at ourself than at the cross of Christ? It's a great question. You just stated that in 1 John 513. it's very clear there where he says, I write these things to you. Interesting. Who believe in the name of the son of God that you may know you have eternal life. So just as you said, he's writing not with a stick as a shepherd to condemn the sheep.

He's actually writing to them that they would know that they have eternal life. What's fascinating is it's right in that context that I, believe the Apostle John sets up, maybe we could call it four pillars, four pillars that create maybe a healthy checklist on what that looks like. If he's saying, here's my joy, and my joy would be that you know that you have eternal life, if you back up in that very chapter, there would be four pillars that I think would give that assurance to someone. The first one is a doctrinal test and it's right there in 5-1. Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. You don't want to skip over that. Here is the eternal security of a believer.

It is a man or woman who places his or her trust, belief, faith in that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. And so there's a belief there in obviously Jesus, his humanity. There's a belief in his deity. It says that he's the Christ. And the one who places his or her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, in that doctrinal test, is truly born of God. I don't want to miss that.

There's a lot of false religions. A lot of people, as you said, maybe that are talking about, heaven but might not be going there. Well, what's the foundation? It's a doctrinal test on putting your trust in Jesus Christ, both his humanity, Christ, his deity, that he's the long-awaited Messiah. So it begins there with a doctrinal test. It's hard because on the one hand, Romans 1013, whoever calls in the name of the Lord will be saved, right? So that's where you begin with the identity of Jesus. But then I think people are quick to be like, like, well, what about James 2?

You know, that even the demons believe in Shudder. So what does faith mean here? Whoever believes that Jesus, the Christ is born of God, demons have PhDs in theology, and they are going to hell for all of eternity. So talk to us about that. Maybe that second. Well, I just would second, that second pillar is right there in the scripture. It's the next verse where it says in verse 2, by this we know.

There's that intimacy. Confidence. by this we know we have confidence that we love he says there the children of god if you back up when he says in 5-1 everyone who loves the father loves whoever is born of him so there how do we know that i think one of the bottom line second pillars here is that the true believer loves god we're not perfect in that but you have a relationship with God that isn't based on a decision you've made, but is based on an ongoing relationship with God because the greatest passion of your heart is to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

What's interesting, though, Johnny, is that could even be somewhat ethereal. What do you mean love God? But then he goes on in verse 2 and says, here's how we know is that he says we love God and he says and whoever is born of him. It sounds so basic, but here's the second pillar. There's a doctrinal test. There's a relational test and the relational test is a love, never perfection until we get to glory for the father. But you would think he'd say something different there on this second pillar.

but he actually says something that I think is fascinating. Whoever loves the father loves whoever has been born of him. One of the foundational pillars there is that you love other believers. You love the body of Christ. You love the father. But then you love the people whom the father has redeemed, which when you're talking about assurance, if you have somebody who makes a decision,

but they show no love and affection for God the Father and then show no affection for the body of Christ. There's a big miss there. First John says they're liars. Yes. It's not just like, hey, check yourself. It says in first John 2, 9, the one who says he's in the light

and yet hates his brothers in the darkness until now. The one who loves his brother abides in the light and there's no cause for stumbling in him. And he's going to repeat that reality over and over again. throughout John. And so, okay, so we see that doctrinal test. It's an affirmation and it's a belief of faith, a dependency. Jesus is the God man.

And he is exactly who he says he was and is. Then there's this relational test. It's a love for God. Jesus says it, you know, if you love me, you know, that's what he's after, hearts that love him, not just confess to an affirmation of a higher deity. And that relational test has a vertical component and a horizontal component. Absolutely.

both between God and the body of Christ. We're adopted into a family. And so the expectation from God is that we love our siblings in Christ. Talk to us about that third one. Yeah, the third one, the third pillar is a moral test. And it's actually stated right there just in 1st John 5.3, for this is the love of God. He begins to define it that we keep his commandments.

Now, some are going to respond and say, that's works righteousness. No, because it says that we keep His commandments. And in the same verse in 1 John 5, 3, his commandments are not burdensome. In other words, if you claim to love the Son of God and claim to love the Father, that's going to be demonstrated by the obedience

of keeping the commandments of God. And Johnny, certainly, we're not saved by works. the root of our salvation is our trust in Jesus Christ. But the fruit of that is a life of obedience. And he says this all over. I'm just thinking of 1st John chapter 3 in verse 22, where he says, and he says in 23, and this is the commandment that we believe in the name of his son, Jesus Christ, and that we love one another.

and then he says, whoever keeps his commandments abides in God and God in him. And so there is that obedience pillar. And people are quick to, yeah, to your point,

kind of react and say it's legalism. And that's right. Sometimes you come back to the basic words of Jesus, right? And I think when we talk about salvation, salvation is a miracle of God. Absolutely. So you're basically asking,

when you're asking the question, how do I have assurance of myself? you're asking the question, how do I know if God has done a miracle in my life? And I think sometimes we don't frame it that way. How do I know if God has done a miracle in my life? Well, he gives you a new heart. Yes. And when he gives you a new heart, he says that a new heart that he gives you is going to love him.

John 14, 15, out of the mouth of Jesus. Yes. If you love me, you will keep my commandments. John 1421, he who has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me. John 1423, if anyone loves me, he will keep my word and my father will love him and we will come to him and make our abode with him. He who does not love me does not keep my words. So that's out of the mouth of Jesus. So you would never accuse Jesus of legalism.

This is the most gracious, loving, merciful, compassionate God who desires all men to come to repentance. And this is the God that wants us to have assurance of our salvation. So there is this moral test like, hey, our obedience. Now, for someone that's discouraged, right, and because you can wake up every day and go, how do I know if I'm being obedient enough, right? So what's the inverse of this? Like, what prevents us from constantly looking at the man in the mirror as in the ground of our assurance, meaning like, I want insurance, so I better evaluate my behavior.

How would you respond to the person that's always looking at the fruit of their life to ascertain that if the root of salvation has taken place? It's a great question. And I'm back in 1 John again in 3-9, where he said no one born of God in 1-John 3-9 makes a practice of sinning. In other words, no one who's been truly born of God is going to make that practice to sin.

Well, we got to explain that because I'm a person and I'm a sinner, so I sin every day. So if John's goal is to give people assurance, he says that is the goal. And then it's like, well, two chapters earlier, he says, no one who is born of God practices sin. Right. And everybody listening or watching to this podcast practices sin.

Like, they're a sinner. So what does practice mean there? Because that's the, I think the key idea is, well, I sin every day. I lose my cool. I'm worldly. I'm tempted by things, you know. So how would you define practice in a way that doesn't leave everybody waving in their assurance? Right.

Right, because you would never read the first four chapters and go, John is really trying to give me assurance. Right. You'd be like, oh, my goodness, I'm a sinner. I sin all the time. I don't obey God like I should. Maybe I'm not saved. Right.

And people, you would agree, people with true eternal security that have actually genuinely trust Christ live with eternal insecurity in their life sometimes. Some people have an acute conscience that, that they've trusted Christ, but they're guilty all the time. And there may be Martin Lloyd Jones used to say some people have a temperament of that. So back to the question, he does talk there in 3-9 about the practice of sinning. I mean, Johnny, what would you say? The question would be, what does practice mean?

Are you talking a week? Yeah, and how do you reconcile this with Romans 7? Right. I do what I don't want to do. I don't do what I do what I do. Right. So, yeah, and that's where I think typically people would define practice by a length of time. Right.

So I think the main idea here and you jump in is just that sometimes it's easier to say what it doesn't mean than what it does mean. Yes. It doesn't mean that if you sin, you're going to hell and you're not a believer because every single believer sins. That's first John. Right. Or one, right, verse 8. If we say we have no sin, we're deceiving ourselves and we're not a believer. That's right.

So if you don't sin at all and you think you don't sin, you're not. not a Christian. If you sin, I would say, without any sting of your conscience, without any growth over a long period of time, without any remorse over sin, without any desire to change, without any hunger to be more and more like the Lord Jesus Christ, that's how I would probably define practice sin, meaning you're never convicted, you don't want to change, there's no love for righteousness, that also manifests that you've never been changed at the heart level, when God does change you, he wants, you know, he gives you a heart that wants to obey him. So practice with meaning, we've always said it's the direction of your life, not the perfection

of your life. It has to be there. So meaning like everybody still sins, Paul says post-conversion that he's the chief of sinners. So Paul's aware of his sin in a way where he hates his sin, right? He says he buffets his body, so he wanted to disqualify himself. That's a guy that's a real sinner. And yet he's also someone that knows that when I die, I'm going straight to the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So there is kind of this, it takes the whole Bible to make a whole Christian thing here. Because if you just read 1st John 3-9, without the rest of Scripture, you might come to the conclusion, practice might mean daily. And I sin daily. Right. So that means I'm going to hell. And we have to confess, you know, it's funny, if you took it to an extreme, maybe, maybe this is practical for me and I'm not quoting a scripture here.

but if you asked me, how do I know that I'm a believer? I came to Christ at 14. And one of the things that was so demonstrable for me is that when I got off my knees at the age of 14, I knew I was a believer, not based on my righteousness. It was actually just the opposite. I knew I became a believer because the things that never, that never caused conviction in my life, all of a sudden, my conscience was on fire when I would disobey. It wasn't in my righteousness that I knew I was changed. It was in the conviction that was being brought and wrought in my heart through the power and the presence of the Holy Spirit that kept driving me back to Christ. And in that, I knew he saved me. That's the key idea that it brought you back to Christ. Yes. Paul talks about a worldly remorse, just feeling bad over sin but not desiring to obey.

Yes. And so, yeah, I think that's helpful. You know, and just like I think practicing sin, it's hard to say, well, is it a week or is it, you know, something you do every week or something you do every month or something you do every year? It's the fact that you're growing in righteousness, that you do feel worse and worse. I remember talking to JMAQ about this where he would say, the whole ear you are, the worse you're going to feel about your sin. The closer you get to the light, the more is exposed. You know, it's a good, you even think you've been preaching. It's been a joy to listen to you the last two weeks on Psalm 51.

I mean, here was David, the man of God that, did you actually define how long did he go, Johnny, from his sin with Bashiba, the covering of it, until the bony prophet Nathan said, period of months, right? I would, some would say it was up to a year. Now, how did he go a year? Yeah.

Just, it took Nathan to expose that to him and then he broke, didn't he? Yeah, and he, David doesn't think, I'll talk about it this Sunday, doesn't think he lost his salvation, but maybe lost some assurance

and at bare minimum lost the joy of his salvation. He doesn't, he feels distant from God. You explain that. People need to listen to God. He says, you know, take not your Holy Spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of your salvation. Like I might be a believer, but I'm the most miserable one that exists.

Well, and there's a, isn't that assurance? He was miserable. When I didn't confess my sin, my body dried up like with the fever heat of the summer. Which is this own manifestation of God's work in your life. That's right. No such thing as a happy, disobedient Christian. Now, yes. in an ongoing way. Now, just for the sake of time, give us that fourth pillar. Yeah, just the fourth

and final one. So you have the doctrinal test on the person of Christ. You have the relational test. You love God and you love the family of God. The moral test is there's a pattern, a desire, an ongoing desire to obey him. And then the last one, I just called it the purity test. And it's the one that overcomes the world. And it's the one who's placed their faith in Christ. So a true believer, certainly we fall and stumble, but a true believer, it's right there in 1st John that what overcomes the world is his faith. And so the true believer is an overcomer. And so back to 1st John 2, do not love the world, nor the things in the world, the one who loves the world, the love of the father is not in him.

And what is overcoming the world is our faith in Christ. So again, back to pattern. There's a pattern of obedience. Didn't you pick that up when you were a little boy and I was reading Pilgrim's Progress to you, Christian on his way to the celestial city and all the temptations that were before him? Yeah, I think that love for the world is a key one that's probably often circumvented. You know, people don't really think about that as a sign of an unbeliever. that if you love the world, the love of the father is not in it.

Yes. You know, you're probably looking often at sexual purity or greed or, you know, malice in murder. But there is a simplicity in First John, too. If you love the world, which means that your heart's affections are anchored here. Yes. More than towards God himself. As a pattern. As a pattern, right?

Obviously, everybody struggles with worldliness. And that's the ongoing battle in this life. And that's what you're saying, you know, turn your eyes upon Jesus. look full in his wonderful face, and the things that this world will grow strangely dim as we grow progressively in the light of his glory and grace. So that's an ongoing battle. But, yeah, the purity element of overcoming the world

is at least the hallmark of someone who's been genuinely changed by God is that they place, they even explain what that means because I think there's a lot of misunderstanding there. When I think of overcoming, I think of me climbing a mountain. Yes.

But it says that the way in which we overcome the world is our faith. So just explain that as we close. It's our faith. How does this go back to the first principle in regards to doctrinal? So if the way we overcome the world is dependency and belief and trust in God,

how does the fourth principle relate to the first one? Yeah, it's just, what has overcome the world, it says, is our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes? It's the next phrase, that Jesus is the Son of God. So there's a continual trust in him

as the bread of life, as the water of life, as the greatest pursuit in our life. That's not a one-time affirmation. That's right. It's an ongoing fixation. Yes. And dependency on God. Absolutely.

And as you fix your eyes on, that's Hebrews, right? Fixing your eyes on Jesus Christ, that produces both assurance, peace, Right. Joy, fellowship with God. And the more you fix your gaze there, the more you have fellowship. Yeah. And you would say, just to be clear, what does that mean, loving the world?

That thing is just that word phrase is tossed out. He actually tells us in 1 John 2 when he says, whoever does loves the world, doesn't love the father is not in him. But for all it is in the world, what are they? The desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of the life and pride of life. and pride of life is not from the father, but is from the world. So it's those three sins.

And again, not perfection in the life of a believer, but the direction of our heart. And I believe as we follow forward in those practical pillars, we're going to have that practical assurance that were his. Just one thing, because I think it's important. Our assurance, and I just, I want to end here. Yes. is itself a work of the Holy Spirit.

So we talk about it's subjective, but it's the spirit that both is the seal of our inheritance. So we talk about the father and the son and the spirit giving our security, but it's also the spirit in 816 that testifies within our spirit that we are children of God. So this is, it's not just something we do and then we have assurance. It's something that the spirit gives us as we walk and live in dependent. dependency upon the Spirit and pursue Jesus Christ. So I don't want that to be missed in the sense of like,

they do this and then you'll get assurance. And even pastorally, for me, almost 40 years now, when somebody is struggling with the doctrine of assurance, assurance ultimately, just as you said, is born by the Holy Spirit. That's where you send people back to the scriptures, back to John 10, the promises of God. But ultimately, the spirit of God has got to give the believer the assurance that he or she is his.

So affirming that with you. Well, thanks, Dad. No, this is helpful. And if you lack assurance, it's not something to hide. It's also something to navigate with pastors in your life, you know, involved in the conversation. Because even one of the reasons you talk to people, you talk to the body of Christ, so that they can be champions of God's grace in your life, asking new questions. And so assurance is both individual, the Spirit of God produces it in your life.

But some people, as you said, beat themselves up over sin. They walk in continual guilt. So true. And so they need other people to champion God's grace in their life, to remind them of truth, to help them fix their eyes on Christ. And so anyways, Dad, thanks so much. Thank you for having me, Johnny. Thanks.

Love you.