Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - Costi Hinn - What does the Bethel Movement teach?

Episode Date: October 21, 2021

Jonny Ardavanis is the Dean of Campus Life at The Master’s University, a Camp Director at Hume Lake Christian Camps and hosts the podcast Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis. He is passionate about the Gospel and God’s Word and desires to see people understand and obey it. Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis: Big Questions, Biblical Answers, is a series that seeks to provide biblical answers to some of the most prominent and fundamental questions regarding God, the Gospel, and the BibleIn this episode Pastor, Author and President of For The Gospel Ministries, Costi Hinn answers the question: “What does the Bethel movement teach?”Subscribe to stay up to date with each episode! Watch on YouTubeFollow on InstagramVisit Our Website

Hey guys, my name is Johnny Artavanis and this is Dial In. In this episode, I sit down with pastor, author, the president of For the Gospel Ministries, and one of my good friends, Kosti Hinn. In this episode, we're going to discuss the teachings of the Bethel movement, and then we're going to discuss the dangers of what happens when we get the identity of Christ wrong. You're not going to want to miss it. Let's dial in. Kosti, thanks for sitting down again. I wanted to ask you a question I think a lot of people talk about. Maybe they'll read snippets or hear soundbites about the Word of Faith movement, Bethel, Jesus culture, and they're very polarizing sides but I think most people the vast majority have very little understanding about what

they teach about the gospel about Jesus and his men in his ministry and how we operate today yeah first and foremost I just want you to provide a fundamental level if someone's going what does Bethel teach I've heard maybe it's I just want you to provide a fundamental level. If someone's going, what does Bethel teach? I've heard maybe it's dangerous or I heard it's fine. What do they teach biblically? And then afterwards, we'll talk about how we line that up with Scripture and what that teaches us today.

Yeah, so first, to be fair and to be clear, what they teach would be concerning to me. Here's why and here's the what. Typically, there may be people in there who say, oh, I don't agree with that or I don't teach that. So-and-so does, but we don't agree with everything. But let's just say as a general movement, they would teach first that Jesus was just a man in right relationship to God,

not God when He did His miracles and His healing and did all of those supernatural works. And where we find that is there's a book that Bill Johnson wrote, who's the kind of lead apostle at Bethel, called When Heaven Invades Earth. They have sort of doctored some things here and there, walked this back a bit, but there's still other material in which they teach this. The basic teaching, this is a direct quote from page 29 of that book, that Jesus did His miracles as a man in right relationship to God.

And then there's an ellipsis, and he says, not as God. The reason that they would... So dot, dot, dot. Not as God. And here's the reason. The reason is because that sets the stage for what they teach about healing miracles in the supernatural, in that Jesus did all His miracles as just a man in right relationship to God, not as God.

Therefore, you can do them too. So come to our School of Supernatural Ministry. We will teach you and equip you to prophesy, to heal people, to do great miracles, and to raise the dead. To walk on water? Well, no one has yet. But that would be the idea. If Jesus did it on earth, there's nothing preventing you from being able to do it. So without being irreverent or even cheeky about those things, yes to all of it, that would be a concern for me. Now, theologically, just going to use a big kind of phrase here, and I'll explain it. That is called ontological canonic Christology. We don't ever

need to worry about everyday people are going, I know that term, ontologic. What? Basically, there are scholars and theologians who have, throughout history, unpacked what is biblical Christology, which would be the doctrine of Christ, teaching about Jesus, what is okay to teach and what is not okay to teach. It is historically, widely, biblically known that it is not okay to teach that Jesus stopped being God at any given time. Now, if they were to say, well, we never said He wasn't God. He just wasn't God when He was doing those things. Well, on page 79 of the same book, Bill Johnson says that he laid aside, his direct quote, he laid aside his divinity. Which means his godness. His godness.

That is against Scripture, namely the fact that Philippians 2 talks about Jesus coming and taking on the form of man, but he never stopped being God. It was a, you could call it a subtraction by addition, meaning he demeaned himself. He came down to earth, and he didn't stop being God. He added humanity, but he never once was not deity. He veiled attributes or aspects of who he was. Obviously, he didn't explode with all

His glory. Everyone would have died if they came into contact with His glory. There was a veiling of His omniscience, where at times He said, well, it's for the Father to know that, not me. Jesus, I thirst on the cross, says that. Why? He's showing His humanity. Luke 22, 42, Father, if possible, let this cup pass from me, meaning the wrath of God, the cross. Not my will, but yours be done. Over and over, Jesus was showing us his humanity, but he was also showcasing his deity. Well, Bethel has taken Christology, the doctrine of Christ, and made it mean something the Bible doesn't so that they can teach this. Now, I'm not presuming their motives are to get rich

or they're just a bunch of heretics or this, that, and the other. I'm saying that that's a position that people have taken in today's world in order to accomplish whatever goal, which is honestly, I think with the best of intentions, though I don't agree at all, they are trying to raise up a generation who do mighty works. Like you can move mountains. To save people.

Their goal isn't to build an empire of heresy or some cult. Their goal is we are the kingdom. We're going to bring the kingdom, and we're going to heal and raise the dead. It's like Jesus is back 2.0 through us. It's a generation that wants the power of God. They're just going about acquiring that power or mimicking it the wrong way. So that'd be one aspect of what they teach. Can I do one more? Yeah.

There's another element. When it comes to healing, Bill Johnson and many others will teach this as well. Todd White and others will say... Bill Johnson's head of Bethel. ...lead apostle of Bethel. He'll say, it's always God's will to heal. He says, I have to believe. Physically. I have to believe that it's always God's will because Jesus healed everyone who came to Him. And then He'll also say things like, I never pray your will be done. How can I pray your will? That's a prayer of unbelief. The Lord's already revealed to me that it's always His will to heal,

and so I follow that approach. Well, that's deeply concerning because what do you tell faithful people who are sick? What's wrong with them? If it's always God's will to heal, why is anybody sick? Why don't they just go to a cancer ward then also? And heal them all. These are questions that we have to ask. Now some people may get uncomfortable and be like, oh come on, that's just a cheap shot, or you're being rude. They just go to a hospital, and now you're being sarcastic.

No, seriously, if we've got these gifts, my position would be that we are walking around like the apostles, saying, silver and gold have I none. That which I have, give I thee, which remember Peter and all of them, in the name of Jesus Christ, rise up and walk. And they are walking, and we're healing, and it's showcasing power like Jesus, just like Jesus. The other thing is this.

Are we really being honest about the definition of a miracle? In the Old Testament, in the New Testament, the parting of the Red Sea, even like non-Christian, non-churchy people who have seen the old movie with Charlton Heston, The Ten Commandments. I was thinking you're going Prince of Egypt. Well, let's go modern.

Prince of Egypt. You could be young, old, it don't matter. The Red Sea parted. Water parted and dry land formed and people walked across a parted sea. Axe heads floated. Okay, that's a miracle. Fire came down from heaven when Elijah is there,

and the altar is consumed as he makes these sacrifices. Jesus walked on water. Peter walks on water. Takes his eyes off Jesus. Starts to sink. Jesus pulls him up. Lazarus, come forth. Boom!

Jesus raises him from the dead. We've got time and time again mighty things happening. Remember the time Jesus heals somebody just speaking the word? He doesn't even go there. The centurion, just speak the word. I know it'll happen. He goes, it's done. That is the picture of the miraculous and of healing Philip. Actually, he gets transported. You ever seen that in your Bible? He apparates, yeah. He just disappears and appears in another place. I'm not against miracles.

I believe God does miracles. I'm not against healing. I believe we serve a mighty supernatural God who is a healer. I just wrote a book called More Than a Healer about the fact that He heals. I've got a son with cancer and who's doing great, by the way, and the Lord has been so kind in that situation to do that. But guess what? God is still kind if the cancer diagnosis is darker than the Lord has been so kind in that situation to do that, but guess what? God is still

kind if the cancer diagnosis is darker than what it has been now. God is still good even when things are not, and no matter what happens to me on earth, I know His will ultimately results in total healing in heaven, but right now we may suffer. We may be persecuted. We may go through trials like so many in the Bible. So then what Bethel say, let's say you just mentioned in the dark. You would say, from your position biblically, that when we're in the dark, we need to have faith. You know, and trust God in the dark. Bethel would teach if you're in the dark continually,

you don't have faith. Because God's will for your life is for you you're in the dark continually, you don't have faith because God's will for your life is for you to live in the light. If you trusted God and were trusting Him, He would have made this better. Not necessarily as much anymore. I've heard Bill Johnson even recently in one of their series, the Rediscover Bethel series, say that it does take faith. We've got to have faith. You need faith. He makes a big deal about it still because that's the position of their theological world. You can't say that you don't

need faith, but I've heard him now talk more about an enduring faith. He's given a label to it. An enduring faith, never giving up on the miracle. So he's kind of curbed at least what he... Benny, his wife, has cancer. His son is still deaf. Son Eric. And Bill wears eyeglasses. They've had a sweet baby girl die. Remember the wake up olive situation hashtag? I think somewhere along the way,

here's what I hope. Even a Bill Johnson, who some of us in the conservative theological circles would be tougher on theologically, not afraid to mix it up and say, hey, brother, that's blasphemy. That's heresy. Those are dangerous things you're teaching. It's not like Jesus, so stop. I would say a man could come to a place where he realizes or sees, yeah, maybe this doesn't work anymore completely like I thought, or maybe we need to bring a little balance. So yeah, you still need faith, but some of us, you're just going to be holding out for your miracle,

but never stop believing. I have no issue with someone saying, keep believing. No problem with that. So I have to be fair. I don't want to lie or deceive or become what we would call a little bit cunning or deceitful on some of those beliefs that they have. I don't want to become that to slam dunk them. I have to say, in what I've been watching recently, I'm more and more hearing from their camp, well, some of you, you're going to get the miracle right away. You have enough faith, and God's going to give you your breakthrough now, but some of you, you want to have an enduring faith. Bill Johnson, in one of his recent videos, the Rediscover Bethel series, uses his son's story actually as a great example of enduring faith and not being bitter when the miracle doesn't happen. But he's still waiting for it. Yeah, which is a very different approach that they've had.

Does that negate things they've taught? No. Do we still need to always grow as believers and we want to make sure we're repenting or acknowledging things that we've taught wrong and coming into the full knowledge of the truth sure but I can't say anymore that they only say it this way and they don't ever offer a nuance so then yeah if if they're waiting for that and they have an enduring faith so let's say you talked about Christology the doctrine of Jesus teachings about Jesus you mentioned they have maybe a distorted view biblically of what we would read in the scripture,

where we would say, this is my beloved son, he's God. How does that distort? Because people are probably wondering, and I'm wondering, well, are they right on the gospel? And so if there's, but then you would say, well, if they have a distorted view of Christ on on earth how does that distort our interpretation of the gospel because if it's if we're saved by receiving and believing the gospel what's the main danger here and be be honest because what we believe about christ is everything yeah it dictates eternity so what's the what would you

say man if I'm sitting here, I've been a part of the Bethel movement, and I'm hearing what you're saying, what would be your plea, even from God's word, to go, man, well, this is Aaron. Yep. I want to be gentle. I want to be fair. I want to be truthful. But we still want to be faithful and unwavering in this. If you get Jesus wrong, you do not have a Jesus that can save you. The Muslims have a Jesus. The Mormons have a Jesus. The Jehovah's Witnesses have a Jesus.

Catholics have a Jesus. Everybody's got a Jesus. American politics has a Jesus. Everyone's got a Jesus. Is he the right Jesus? It's universalism is the term that you would use to describe everybody. You just believe what you believe and kind of all roads get there and it's all good. You just do you, I do me, and we'll all get there together. You know,

this kind of pie in the sky, God, that'll make it all work. Jesus said in John 14, 6, I am the way. I am the truth. I am the life. No one comes to the Father but through me. So on one hand, we are not trying to fire darts at everyone and just be nasty heresy hunters who hate on people that are trying their best. We also aren't sitting over here going, well, let's just love people. I think it was Warren Wiersbe that said that truth without love is brutality. Love without truth is hypocrisy. We can't be hypocrites here. If you are getting Jesus wrong, saying he was just a man doing this, just doing this, and you want to make him and do whatever you want to accomplish your goal. We are no better, brother, than the Mormon Jesus, who is not fully, truly God and is sort of just an elder brother of whatnot, and you can be a God too.

We're no better than the Muslims who, He was just sort of a prophet. He's over here. He's not God, the Son of God. He's not Christ Almighty, the Lord of our life. So we just got to get really honest. Now, I would encourage people if they are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, man, I'm not some crazy false heretic out there. I don't believe like that. We are different.

I would just encourage them to assess, is your Jesus the Jesus of the Bible? Or have even we at times, as those who profess true faith, taken the Bible, twisted it to mean what we want it to mean, to create a Jesus we really want in order to accomplish our ultimate goal. I go back to Mormonism. They use the Bible. They also have the Book of Mormon.

They also have this. They also have this. They also have this. We can easily go down that slippery slope. And so yes, boldly, clearly, unapologetically, with a heart of love, wanting to win people, not win arguments, the Bethel Jesus is a different Jesus, which means the Bethel... Than the Scriptures. Than the Scriptures, which means the Bethel gospel is being preached with a distorted Christ.

And so I do believe... So would people in the Bethel movement say, I am saved by Christ alone, through faith alone, and by grace alone? I think they would. But they would say that, then what happened at the cross then? Was that Jesus fully absorbing the wrath of God? I think that a lot of them would say that. Would say that. So they would agree principally. Whatever that Jesus was, yeah, He still did all those things. And I believed this when I was in the prosperity

gospel. I believed the whole gospel. It was gospel plus though. So you would say by grace alone through faith. I'm saved by grace through faith. I could recite the gospel. People sometimes ask me like, did you even read the Bible? Do you guys even read the Bible? So that if I'm in Bethel or you know if I'm part of it and I'm saying, well, dude, what's the big deal? I'm saying the same thing. You preach a sermon on the gospel at a camp or at an event and you say, you know, repent and believe in Christ. The difference there is that when Paul says in Romans 10, 9, if you believe in your heart Jesus is Lord, do they not believe Jesus is Lord and just a man?

Yeah, I don't understand how a man could atone for the sin of the world. I don't understand how just a man could absorb the wrath of God. I can't do that, which would be where my wires don't fire with Bethel's teaching. At what point, if he's just a man in right relationship to God, showing me how to live, can I atone for somebody's sin? How does a finite person atone for infinite amount of sin? How am I supposed to be Jesus? Now, here's where it gets interesting, and we should have more logical debate about this. Well, no, no, no. We believe that He was God when He did that. He was just man with it.

Well, then why not just lay aside all the canonic Christology stuff we talked about, that He's just a man when He did His miracles. Why not just say, Jesus as the God-man set the model for us, and we're going to still be apostles and prophets, and we're just going to be like the early church doing signs and wonders, and that's what we're going to do like Jesus who was the God-man. Why not say that? We don't need to go down all these other roads in which we demean Christ to accomplish our goal. Let's just believe in the same Jesus, and if you want, like some of my Pentecostal friends, we get along just

fine. They believe in the true gospel. They're going to speak in tongues. They want to babble in a prayer language, and I don't say that disrespectfully. I used to. It's not real language for them. It's an ecstatic utterance of babble, but it means something to them. And we get along and agree on so much, but they're going to try to speak in tongues, and I don't. I've had Pentecostal friends I talk to say, yeah, but there's one step further, which would be more of the Bethel version of who Jesus is. Can't go there, not going there. We're just staying where we are. If it's a debate about signs and wonders, brother, we've been having a debate for years. I'd love to go back to that. But let's

not mess with Christ, His deity, His humanity. Let's not demean any part of Him during any part of His ministry in order to elevate our mode of ministry. Let's keep Him as the beautiful, perfect, truly God, truly man, Savior and Lord who accomplished all these things as the God-man and what He did on the cross as the God-man, never once laid aside His divinity, and then calls us to follow as His disciples. That's where we begin to intersect again with the Bethel movement. I will go on record as saying, if we could go back to that, brother, we're just back in the old classic secondary doctrine debates. But when you mess with the doctrine of Christ, you have entered tier one. You've missed the cornerstone of the Christian faith. You've entered tier one. You missed the cornerstone of the Christian faith. You've entered tier one. So then if you're saying Jesus is calling people to be his disciples,

I know many students and many people that think that will hear something or watch it on YouTube or that what God wants for them is to go learn how to heal. If they're to be imitators of Christ, Ephesians 5 says to be imitators of Christ. And I think, well, Jesus went into all of the regions, healing and casting out demons. And they are just saying, well, if I need to be like Christ, that's just the natural step. I'm assuming then what we need to think through is

as his disciples were called to proclaim the gospel and not go heal everybody. But how can that, how is that even just, as we close, being distorted? That idea of being an imitator of Christ from a character perspective to a power perspective. What's the difference there? It's an overemphasis on just one element of Jesus that He healed. In Mark 1.38, we see all these people looking for Jesus.

Like, hey, where are you? We want to heal you. The disciples are like, hey, they're all looking for you looking for you and he says yeah let's go to the next town you know I came to preach that's why I'm here literally he does not go heal everyone we don't really ever talk about the guy running with a kid in his arms going like oh Jesus is in a boat crossing Jesus and my son is unhealed I came to preach because healing for the soul is still more important than healing for the body. That's uncomfortable. That's what Christ teaches. But Jesus makes that clear.

And He did heal people and do mighty miracles to showcase His love and His compassion and His deity. Remember the Pharisees get all bothered that He forgave sins. Who can forgive sins but God? And He goes, yeah, watch this. He heals the man and says, now you see I canave sins. Who can forgive sins but God? And he goes, yeah, watch this. He heals the man and says, now you see I can forgive sins. All I would advocate for is if you're going to say you're just like Jesus,

then don't just tell me about how you're going to try to heal and try to prophesy. Preach the clear and full true gospel. Forgive sins. Do miracles. Not the person, but that God does. Yeah, totally. Or if we're going to even go that far and say we're just like Jesus,

then you have to also forgive sins. And you do all these things that get you into slippery slope waters. But I would just say this, preach a Jesus that forgives sins. Preach a Jesus who did what he did on the cross. And let's not just lean in and overemphasize. You got to be just like Jesus and heal the sick and cast out devils. Yeah, let's preach the true gospel and make sure we're getting Jesus right in the process.

Super helpful, Kosti, because I think, I'm just thinking about all the people that I know that have been involved and I don't think even really know some of this stuff because we can't get Jesus wrong. He was fully God. And it would make no sense to understand how the cross of Jesus Christ accomplished redemption apart from being fully God. So that's obviously so important, but it also just has so many different ripple effects

of having a distorted view of our call as Christ followers. Is it to go and heal everyone and cast out demons and perform signs and wonders, or is it to preach Christ and Him crucified? And so I'm thankful for the clarity that you've provided. So thank you. Grateful for you, brother.