Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - Does God Choose Who Gets Saved? Predestination vs Free Will EXPLAINED | Pastor John MacArthur and Jonny Ardavanis

Episode Date: July 4, 2025

Does God Choose Who Gets Saved? Predestination vs Free Will EXPLAINED | Pastor John MacArthurIn this powerful theological discussion, Pastor John explains: ✅ Biblical evidence for predestination - What Scripture actually says ✅ Human responsibility in salvation - Why unbelievers are still accountable
✅ How both truths coexist - Understanding God's infinite mind vs. finite understanding ✅ Practical application - How to know if you're among the electKey Topics Covered • Predestination before the foundation of the world • The Lamb's Book of Life • Election and chosen people • Dead in trespasses and sin • Sovereign grace and human faith • Biblical paradoxes explained • Assurance of salvation

When we get the glory, we're not going to be welcomed by a bellboy. We're going to be welcomed by the Lord Jesus Christ himself. You have something to look forward to because I think there is a real element where someone might say, I'm just sick of the suffering in this life. I'm tired of battling sin. I'm tired of my flesh. I'm tired of loss. I mean, have you lost anyone or anything you love?

Well, in heaven, there will be none of that. Why am I living as if this is forever? This is not forever. We're passing through. And I wanna ask the question, what is heaven like? God promises you heaven so that you would begin to remotely fathom in the ages to come just how gracious our God is. Alright, Hank, we've been talking about the grace of God and previously we talked about

how God's grace is exhibited in His saving grace, His sanctifying grace. That's the grace that is power to transform us into the image of Christ. Sustaining grace, he lifts up those who are crushed. When we're walking through trials and difficulty, the storms of life, God sustains us. So Paul says, God's grace is sufficient for me and his power is made perfect in weakness. And then God's serving grace, that he gives us gifts to serve and we have to steward those resources. But today I want to look at God's sealing grace. And I'll call it sealing grace or His heavenly grace. It says in Ephesians 1-14,

the Holy Spirit is the seal of our inheritance. But I wanna read Ephesians 2-7, because I wanna have a view personally of God's grace that is so large that it fuels a desire to live for Him. That's Romans 6. If we've received and understand God's grace, we're not gonna continue to live for the things of this world.

So Ephesians 2.7 says, well, I'll start back in Ephesians 2.4. It says, but God being rich in mercy because of his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, he made us alive together with Christ. By grace, you have been saved. We've covered that.

And it says, and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus I was thinking about it, but just put a why above verse 7, right? He does all this He makes us alive. He showers us with his love and his grace Why well in verse 7 so that in the ages to come he might show the surpassing riches of His grace and kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. One of the chief motivations in the mind and heart of God for why He does what He does, and not only in this life, but in the next life,

because we're heirs with Him in glory, is so that, verse seven, in the ages to come, wins that. That's in heaven for all eternity. He might show the surpassing riches of his grace, meaning God promises you heaven so that you would begin to remotely fathom in the ages to come just how gracious our God is.

So I wanna just look back to the gospels now because this promise obviously is rooted in the Old Testament. Job says, I'm gonna see God, but we know far more than Job did because we have the New Testament, we have the Holy Spirit. So read for us in John 14,

just the beginning of this promise of God's grace is exhibited in the hope of heaven. And that's John 14. One, yeah. Okay, all right, here we go. John 14 says, do not let your heart be troubled, believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many dwelling places.

If it were not so, I would have told you. For I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself that where I am, there you may be also. Yeah, you can stop there for just a moment. I love that idea. Jesus says, don't let your hearts be troubled.

This is in the aftermath of him telling them, I'm about to die, right? And then they're obviously troubled. And he says, don't be troubled. I mean, this is their friend, their master. And he says, I'm gonna go be slaughtered. Don't let your heart be troubled, why? He says, in my father's house are many dwelling places.

And I love this idea. He says, if it were not so, I would have told you. God never lies. We understand that. But God is so gracious to even clarify with people that he's never said anything that is embellished, exaggerated, over dramatized, just optimistic. You and I have friends that are just optimistic thinkers.

They get really excited. And then you're like, okay, you're saying this, but what's reality? Well, and it's like the humanity in Jesus coming out, like telling his disciples, and you can almost picture like the looks on the disciples' faces, and he's like, no, if this weren't the case, I wouldn't be telling you otherwise.

I mean, I'm telling you the truth. And yeah, it's like when, you know, Karl Marx used to say that Christianity was the opiate of the masses to get them to be able to endure the difficulty of this life. And Jesus is saying, no, no, no, if this was some sort of illusion, if this was false hope, if I was lying in any way

or just trying to get you to cling onto this idea just to get you through the difficulty of this life, I would not be doing that. This is a God who cannot lie. Hey, thanks so much for taking time to listen to this resource. I wanna make you aware of a few things before we continue on in this episode. First of all, I want to thank those of you who are monthly supporters that make the production

of this content and the ministry that Dial-In does possible. If you sign up today for a monthly gift, you'll receive a free Dial-In mug on the house. It makes even bad coffee taste good. Secondly, if you haven't already, you can sign up for our Thrice Weekly Devotional, which is a three to five minute devotional read to ground your day in God's Word. If you head to our website, dialinministries.org, you can just enter your email and you'll start receiving those on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday morning. Third thing is I just want to thank those of you who have reached out and offered encouragement

regarding my recent book, Consider the Lilies, Finding Perfect Peace and the Character of God. It's been really neat to see both individuals and church small groups walk through this book, which is essentially a book on the character of God and how it functions as the catalyst to peace and trust in a worried and anxious world.

And then just last thing, we are always talking through different ideas for content that would be Lord willing a benefit to you, to encourage you, to potentially challenge you. So if you have any ideas for future episodes or for future series, you can drop a comment in the section below. Thanks so much.

And so he says, I'm going to prepare a place for you. And there's a personal element of it there, right? So he's saying this is, it's specific when we go to glory. It's not just a huge warehouse. There's preparation for you. And I wanna ask the question, what is heaven like, right? Because God is going to shower his grace on us for all of eternity in the experience of heaven.

And we wanna ask the question, what is heaven like? And I don't know if you have it, but do you have 1 Corinthians 2.9 on available? I don't, but I can get there. Yeah, turn to 1 Corinthians 2.9, because this is, I would say, typically the default verse when people wanna describe what heaven is like. So just read 1 Corinthians 2.9 for us.

But just as it's written, things which eye has not seen and the ear has not heard and which has not entered the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those who love him. Yeah, just stop there for a moment. People use this verse to say, all right, in heaven, we just read it, no eye has seen, no ear has heard,

all that God has prepared for those who love him. And that's typically where our understanding of heaven stops. It's unimaginable and we kind of take a few verses here and there to buttress our understanding, but we just kind of punt the ball as far as we can and say, no eye has seen, no ear has heard all that God has prepared for us. Now that's true to a degree, but it's also helpful to remind ourselves of the reality that the Bible is not a series of memory verses. It's a story, there's context. And as typical, it's worth reading the following verse. So read verse 10.

Yeah. But to us, God revealed them through the Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. So Paul says, no eye has seen, no ear has heard, all that God has prepared for us in glory. And then he says, well, these things, what things? These unimaginable things God has revealed to us through his spirit. Now, where does the spirit of God communicate to his people? Through his word. Through his word.

So yes, Christians have something unimaginably wonderful to look forward to, but the point Paul is making in measure is that God has already revealed to us what he is preparing for those of us in Christ. And so I'm thankful we don't have to be left to human pontification or intuition to try to conjure up what heaven is gonna be like. God reveals to us what heaven's gonna be like

because he's so gracious. Now, back to our question, what is heaven like? Well, generally speaking, the Bible talks about heaven in negative terms rather than in positive assertions, meaning that the Bible tells us what heaven is not like so we can understand what heaven is like. Just in the same way when we read God cannot lie so that we can understand that God is truth,

the Bible talks about what heaven is not so we can understand what it is. So for example, in 1 Peter 1, we read that our inheritance is imperishable, undefiled and unfading. We live in a perishing world. Everything around us is fleeting and fickle and fading and heaven is imperishable.

It's undefiled. Why is that worth highlighting? Well, you live in a defiled, corrupt, wicked world. Heaven, no wickedness, no sin, no temptation, no loss, nothing. No flesh of our tug towards sin. And it's unfading. It's not going anywhere. It's not being diluted.

It's appreciating in time. We read in Revelation that there's no tears, right? No cancer, all of these things. So the Bible starts at least, and we'll talk about all of these things. So the Bible starts at least, and we'll talk about what we know also, but the Bible starts by detailing for us what heaven is not like so we can understand what it is like.

And it's just, I would challenge even listeners, the more you dwell on that reality laid out for us in 1 Peter, the more you realize every single thing of every element of our lives that we touch on this earth falls into the buckets that Peter outlines in First Peter. And so this isn't just true on like, oh, the stuff in my garage is depreciating over time, but it's no like every element is true. Yeah, that is also true. But every element relationships we have with people go by the wayside. Grandparents die. I mean, it's just across the board, everything we have that we hold near and dear, we cannot hold on in a way that will exist into eternity.

And then to that great contrast, Peter writes, scripture tells of this grace that saves and then prepares this place that we get to experience forever. Yeah. And so we have these negative examples that you have something to look forward to because I think there's a real element where someone might say, I'm just sick of the suffering in this life.

I'm tired of battling sin. I'm tired of my flesh. I'm tired of loss. I mean, have you lost anyone or anything you love? Well, in heaven, there will be none of that. But it's not just the absence of these things. It's the presence of all that the believer should look forward to. And so I want to just name a few things.

First of all, our Savior is in heaven. Jesus says in John 17, 24, Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me be with me where I am. And I just pause there for a moment. It is sobering and humbling to consider the final prayer of Jesus before he was crucified. And the final prayer of Jesus includes, God, it is my desire that those whom you have given me

be with me where I am so that they may see my glory which you have given me for you loved me before the foundation of the world This is the simplest and first and best part of heaven Jesus is there JC riles says I am a dying man in a dying world all before me is unseen that much is true We don't know exactly but he says the world to come is a harbor unknown, but Christ is there and that is enough What we know to be true about heaven is Jesus is there and He'll welcome us home. Absolutely. And if it wasn't the case, He wouldn't have told us so.

Yeah, exactly. Not only that, our names are recorded there. There's a section in Luke 10 that I love, the disciples are pumped out of their mind, they come back to Jesus and they acknowledge and express their power over demons and disease. I mean, sometimes we read the Bible far too flippantly and quickly, you know, like these 20 something year old dudes come back to Jesus and they say, we have power over leprosy, can heal blind people and cast out demons. And Jesus looks at them and says,

do not rejoice about this. I mean, come on. He says, rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven. He wants to calibrate what they're excited about. And one of the realities we find in scripture is that every single believer's name has been prerecorded in the Lamb's Book of Life, which means that we're registered in heaven.

We belong there. You know, when we went to a wedding a few weeks ago, when you go to the wedding, people kind of look at the list typically. I was the guy checking, cars coming in, is your name on the list? Yes, proceed, or I'll block you. And turns out you were the MC as well.

They usually want the big guys up front. Hey, can you introduce the bridal party? I would love to. Here comes Bob and Tina. But your name is on a list to legitimize your presence. And the Bible says that our name is in the Lamb's Book of Life, which means that we belong there. You know, there's this scene that I love in Acts chapter six.

It's a sobering scene because Stephen is being martyred, the first martyr. And it says while he is dying, he looks up and he sees Jesus at the right hand of God standing. And you have to ask the question, why is Jesus who is the exalted King of Kings and Lord of Lords, why is he standing? Kings typically sit.

Well, he's standing because he welcomes his own into their eternal home. When we get the glory, we're not gonna be welcomed by a bellboy. We're gonna be welcomed by the Lord Jesus Christ himself. This is immensely personal. Our names are recorded in heaven. Not only that, as we've covered briefly,

third, our inheritance is there. Sometimes I was talking about this with you, but kind of look at what houses sold for 30 years ago, and you're like, painful in Franklin, Tennessee. This house sold for 30 years ago and you're like painful in Franklin, Tennessee this house sold for nine dollars If only I could have been here. Yeah, it's like hey you could buy a hundred acres for Because we live in a world of economic dilution, you know broken money. Yeah This isn't a crypto conversation everything in our life. The value of it is fleeting. Mm-hmm, right? Yeah, it's perishable. Yeah, yeah, this isn't a crypto conversation. Everything in our life, the value of it is fleeting, right?

It's perishable. Yeah, it's perishable. And so Peter wants to emphasize our inheritance, which is what we're gonna receive, meaning, hey, if you have grandparents that give you $1,000, you know, when you're older, right? Well, that $1,000 is gonna be worth less at that point than it is now,

which is why it's so interesting that, first of all, the hope that we are anticipating is called an inheritance. That's one of the things that we have in Christ. And what happens, how do you typically inherit an inheritance? Well, someone has to die. And that's the Lord Jesus Christ, who died to secure our inheritance. And our inheritance is not being diluted

by anything in this world, because it's not of this world. It's imperishable, it's undefiled, it's unfading. And it says, I love this, it's reserved in heaven for you because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Meaning the resurrection is the validation of this surety we have that one day when we get the glory, we're gonna receive lavish riches because we belong to Christ.

Yeah, and I just wanna like a five second time out of, again, this is part two of a conversation abounding from grace. And so we've already covered, but this grace was freely given. It's something we receive. Even that grace is first extended as a free gift, but it's just building. The gifts don't stop. Yeah, on that foundation, it's something we receive, even that grace is first extended as a free gift. But it's just building.

The gifts don't stop. Yeah, on that foundation, it's just, I can't help but smile, because it's such good news, foundationally, keep going. Well, I would say not only is our inheritance there, our reward is there. So often we think about the catalyst for living the Christian life

is just the gratitude we have for what Christ has done. This is legitimate, right? Because Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5, the love of Christ compels me, his grace, what he's done in my life, I no longer wanna live for this world, I wanna live holy and solely for him. But the scripture also speaks of the reality

that when we get the glory, we are going to receive the reward in heaven for the way that we've lived in this life. It says in Hebrews 11, and just asking the question, why did Moses obey? Well, Moses, Hebrews 11 25, he chose rather to endure ill treatment with the people of God than to enjoy

the passing pleasures of sin, considering the reproach of Christ's greater riches in the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking forward to his reward." Meaning that in Moses' mind, he knew that he was not only living towards and for the hope of heaven, but for the reward he would receive from God. Abraham. Why did Abraham obey?

It says, by faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise. Why? Because he was looking for the city which has foundations whose architect and builder is God. The same motivation is seen in the New Testament. Jesus tells his disciples, "'Rejoice in that day,' Luke 6, 23, "'and leap for joy for your reward in heaven is great.'" You know, I'm thinking about this

and maybe I want you to speak to this, but like we talk about Jesus says, you know, set your treasures in heaven, you know, and here we kind of use that as a synonym for our rewards in heaven, but maybe just think about, we can't transport our treasure from earth to heaven, but we can invest our treasure in that which lasts.

And that's actually in scripture called our reward, right? Like God's gonna lavish that kindness on us. So on the one hand, we wanna live motivated by grace, but then we also look forward to this reward we have, but that's not at this point now, human effort where we're no longer motivated by grace. Even the reception of that reward is another example of God's grace

because it's a gift we don't deserve. Yeah, and this is a slightly off but related point. I just, back to earlier, the Christian faith is a thinking faith. There's elements to the extent to which you dwell on this. Like it actually does impact the way you live. And there's a, in God's word, revealed word, there's this supremely logical underpinning

of we will actually live for eternity with Him. We will live in the place prepared for us. I think sometimes just to your point, I'm so glad we broke it into a separate episode, is so much of the my own suffering or problems of this world I compound by losing perspective of the eternal weight of glory and of grace. And purely to the extent, like I would be reminded of that, it would actually help calibrate my own day-to-day living. Well, for sure.

I mean, and we'll talk about that more in a moment, but yeah, it does change the way you live. You know, people used to say the line, he's so heavenly minded, he's of no earthly good. That's not the reality we see in Scripture, you know, because we have a hope fixed on him. And so maybe to move on, our loved ones in Christ are in heaven. You know, this is something that matters more and more to me. I think the older I get and the more people I know that have gone home to be with the Lord, there's going to be a reunion in glory. And then seventhly, I would say because of all these things, our greatest joy is there

David knows less than we know But in Psalm 16 11 he says you will make known to me the path of life in your presence is fullness of joy In your right hand there are pleasures forever Sometimes I think people are going. Oh, I don't know is having gonna be fun. You know what we're gonna be the wispies Yeah, what are we gonna do all day? Yeah, well, I of all, we see elsewhere, we're going to have responsibility, right? We're going to have stewardship. We're going to be doing stuff. But it says in Psalm 6 and 11, what we do know for sure is that in God's presence, who is the author and fount of joy, in His presence, there is fullness of joy.

And in His right hand, there are pleasures forever. Heaven is unimaginably, right, going back, awesome, because it's all of the pleasure we long for in this world, but unmixed and unmarred by sin and corruption. And just to your point, pleasure in his right hand, there's no pleasure known to man on this earth that didn't come from God first and foremost. And to your point of what unimaginable pleasure

still await us when it's totally, for once and for all, peeled away from sin and unencumbered by human depravity. I mean, it's just. And for all of eternity. We're gonna golf for days and I'm gonna be so good. We're finally gonna break a hundred. Finally. And maybe I think it's worth asking,

what's the effect of anticipating our heavenly home, right? Cause you said like, hey, this ought to change this underpinning of our life. And I would say a couple of things. First of all, it's gonna loosen our grip on this world. We know first John two that we're not supposed to love this world, but one of the ways that we grow

and being weaned from this world is by setting our hope on heaven. Spurgeon says the best moment of a Christian's life is his last, because it is the one that hope on heaven. Spurgeon says the best moment of a Christian's life is his last because it is the one that is nearest heaven. And then it is that he begins to strike the keynote of the song which he shall sing for all of eternity. So as we focus on heaven, we're gonna stop living for the things of this world

because we're gonna have perspective, right? It's gonna tune us to go, what am I doing here? Why am I living as if this is forever? This is not forever. We're passing through. Hebrews says we're pilgrims. Secondly, it's gonna transform us into the image of Christ. 1 John 3.3 says, he who has this hope fixed on him,

that's hope of heaven, purifies himself even as he is pure. It's talking about his return. As we focus on the fact that one day he's coming back and I don't wanna shrink back and shame when he does,'s going to transform and conform me into the image of Christ. And then thirdly, I would say that one of the effects is a boldness, right? To proclaim Christ. Grace is power in salvation. Grace is power in sanctification.

Grace is power to sustain. But grace is also power to proclaim. Like we know where we're going. The worst thing that could happen to us in this life is someone take away our life. And Paul says to die is gain, right? So that gives us a boldness in this life. And to your earlier point,

they're gonna be there with us for eternity. So let's crank the population. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, and this is the greatest gift God has extended to us is to be a part of his kingdom work. And that's even, again, as we talked about, an expression of his grace. Jerry Bridges says in his book, and we'll close,

transforming grace, his book, we are brought into God's kingdom by grace. We are sanctified by grace. We receive both temporal and spiritual blessings by grace. We are motivated to obedience by grace. We are called to serve and enabled to serve by grace. We receive strength to endure trials by grace. And finally, we are glorified by grace.

The entire Christian life is lived under the reign of God's grace. And I'm thankful for that reality. Anything to add just as we close, Hank? No, I would say this would be a challenge. I would love, I feel like we're creating a little bit of a community in this little world that we can share these conversations more broadly.

So if there's been a particular point of God's grace that's been made new to you in a new way, or maybe the first time you've ever heard or considered these realities of grace, consider sharing it in the comments. I mean, those are sincere encouragements to others. And to the extent possible, please share these conversations so that other people might find it.

And ultimately we can play whatever role we have in cranking the population of heaven for those when we get there. Yeah, and I think one just thing to add is if anybody's listening to this episode has not yet received grace and is asking the question, what do I have to do to receive grace? Well, that's the thing about it.

You don't do anything necessarily, but believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. And for what he's done, not what you've done, and you'll be a recipient of his grace, and you'll inherit his grace, and he'll continue to express that grace towards you for all of eternity. Absolutely.

Well, thank you for the conversation, Johnny. I look forward to more to come. Thanks, Hank.