Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - Erik Thoennes - How do you explain the Trinity?

Episode Date: August 27, 2021

Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis: Big Questions, Biblical Answers, is a series that seeks to provide biblical answers to some of the most prominent and fundamental questions regarding God, the Gospel, and the BibleIn this episode Pastor and Professor Erik Thoennes answers the question: “How do you explain the Trinity?”Watch on YouTubeFollow on InstagramVisit Our Website

Hey guys, my name is Johnny Artavanis and this is Dial In. In this episode, I sit down with pastor and professor Eric Taunus and ask him, how would you define or explain the Trinity God being three in one? Let's dial in. Eric, thank you so much for sitting down with me. I wanted to ask you one of the questions that many students and just many people within the church ask today, and it would be, how do you explain the Trinity? We see it biblically, but we don't exactly even see that word in the Bible.

How would you define or explain the Trinity, God being three in one? Thanks, Johnny. I think that is so essential for us to consider because the Trinity is at the very heart of who God is. And it's obviously one of the most incomprehensible, if not most incomprehensible things we could ever think about. And so what we tend to do is immediately go toward illustrations or images or explanations that aren't coming out of the Bible. So we'll start talking about cherry pies and eggs and water, ice and steam and apple cores. Yeah. Because we want this kid, we're trying to explain this to, to understand it. And we go to illustrations, which I think

quickly runs into Harrison, quite frankly. I think it's better, even rather than using numerical approaches, is to use really biblical pictures of this. And I can't think of a better one than Jesus' baptism, where you see Jesus baptize the Son anointed for ministry. You see the Spirit descending as a dove, anointing Him for His ministry that's about to begin publicly. And then you have the Father saying, this is my beloved Son in whom I'm well pleased. And so you have this beautiful Trinitarian beginning to Jesus' public ministry where the Father who sent the Son is affirming

his beloved feelings toward him and relationship with him. You have the Spirit beautifully fulfilling his role in this unified purpose, but with very distinct roles in that. And that's what we need to emphasize is the relational dynamic between Father, Son, and Spirit. I think we run to eggs and math instead of relationship. And when we talk about the Trinity, we're fundamentally talking about relationship. And that means that there's one God, we're thoroughgoing monotheists, we believe in one God, but that this one God has eternally existed in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And the way we see those three persons primarily expressed in the Bible is in the way they relate to each other and the way they in a unified and distinct way function together and so the relating

is right in their name their titles father son and spirit the father can't be a father without the son and the son it has an identity of being the son and so there's a relational dynamic to that immediately right in the titles that they have and then the spirit plays this role of of equipping and enabling the son to accomplish his earthly ministry in a way that shows us who he is distinctly but all the the while appreciating the oneness that we see in Father, Son, and Spirit. And this is why it's so important to do good whole Bible theology, because there are verses that would lead you into what's called the heresy of modalism. When Jesus says, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. Well, if that's all you had, you could say, well, then there's no difference between the Father and the Son.

But then the Son says, the Father's greater than I. And the Son prays to the Father. And the Father sends the Son. The Spirit exalts the Son. And so we have differences in the dynamic. And so that's why we need to do the best job we can to have whole Bible theology that points us to the whole counsel of God's Word that shows us the character of God in this way. And so the Trinity is the result of good whole Bible theology and not just picking verses here and there. So I've once heard J.A. Packer say that once we've seen the Son, he says that the Holy Spirit is shy because it wants to point us towards Christ. Can you help us understand a little bit how the Holy Spirit works in showing us Christ, but then almost removing himself?

Or how would you define the Holy Spirit's interaction once we've seen the Son? Yeah, my friend Fred Sanders, who is an expert on the Trinity, his book, The Deep Things of God, does a great job of helping us understand those kinds of dynamics but he says one of the best ways to understand the trinity is to speed read the gospel of john looking for inter-trinitarian dynamics going on there and it's just beautiful to see that happen and so when we see the father, and Spirit working together. It's this glorious mutual glorification. So the Father sends the Son. The Son sends the Spirit. What does the Spirit do? He exalts the Son and the Son points us to the Father. And then the Father says, have you seen my Son? He's beloved. And the Son says, don't move a muscle in fulfilling the Great Commission

until the Spirit comes in power, because nothing will happen without His presence. And so they're constantly saying, make sure you're depending on that other person. And then they're pointing. So the Father points us to the Son, the Son points us to the Spirit, and then the Spirit points us to the Son, and the son points us back to the father, and there's this beautiful intra-Trinitarian dynamic going on of mutual love, mutual exaltation, mutual glorification, and mutual revelation of who God is in a way that ends up affecting our everyday life. You can't be a Christian unless you understand the Trinity, at least to some degree. Even John 3.16, you know, the most fundamental verse

you see at the football games is what? For God so loved the world, he sent his only son. And now you're saying, well, how'd that happen? And if you ask someone, why are you a Christian? And they get it right, they'll say, well, because my sins are forgiven because of Jesus. And you say, well, how'd that happen? Well, he took my place because he became one of us. And you say, well, how did that happen? Well, he took my place because he became one of us.

And you say, well, how did that happen? Well, the Father sent him, and he joyfully submitted to the will of the Father in that. And how did that come about? Oh, right, the Holy Spirit brought about the virgin conception. And then throughout his entire life, anoints and enables and empowers him to fulfill his messianic role. And so you can't even begin to explain the gospel without some Trinitarian understanding. And I teach my students on the Trinity,

and they say, I've never really thought about this, but I'm pretty sure I've been a Christian for the last 20 years. And I say, well, you have, but at least it has to be there in some tacit way for you to understand the gospel. The gospel is a Trinitarian accomplishment. And the better you understand the Trinity, the better you understand the gospel. And the more you understand the gospel, the more you understand the Trinity.

You may not have all the theological terminology for it, but you've got that understanding if you get the gospel. So as we grow in our understanding or depth of understanding of the Trinity, then Eric, how would that, and would that affect even the way that we pray and the way that we would seek God in prayer would be your thoughts there? That's a great question. So I think the biblical pattern is that we pray to the Father through the Son in the power of the Holy Spirit. I think there's an appropriateness in light of the distinct roles of the persons of the Trinity. For instance, to thank Jesus for dying for our sins.

I don't think it's appropriate to thank the Father for dying for our sins because Jesus did that. And see, those are the things. Once you start to understand the Trinity, you see pretty sloppy prayers. You say, Heavenly Father, thank you for becoming a man and dying on a cross for us. And you're going to say, time out. That's technically not right. But I think it's right to thank Jesus for dying on a cross for us and to thank the Father for sending his Son and the Spirit for convicting me of sin. So you would pray, Holy Spirit, convict me of sin. Sure. Or thank him for doing that and thank Jesus for dying on the cross.

Even though normatively, I think the biblical pattern is to the Father, always conscious of praying through the Son. It's the Son. So every time I pray, it should be a rehearsal of the gospel. I can boldly approach the throne of grace and confidence in prayer only because of the blood of Jesus. And so every time I pray, it should be a growing appreciation of the gospel at a deeper level where I'm doing that only because of the blood of Jesus and his righteousness and the

sonship I share with him. And that's how I can approach the throne of grace with confidence. Otherwise, all I would hear is depart from me. But because of Jesus, I'm invited to boldly approach the throne of grace. And so prayer should have a Trinitarian fabric to it where I'm conscious of the Son's enabling that he gives. I'm conscious of the Spirit inclining my heart to prayer at all. Anything God word in me is spirit enabled and spirit initiated. And so I'm grateful for the spirit's work in my life if I even want to pray. And so prayer is a very Trinitarian exercise and we need to do that more and more consciously. And then you would recommend that, say, I want to grow in my understanding of the Trinity. You said just speed read the gospel of John and we'll just begin to

see how that Trinitarian relationship works and functions together. Yeah. But the whole Bible, you have what I would say is the foreshadowing foundation of the Trinity that we find in the New Testament. I think if all we had was the Old Testament, we'd have a foundation for the Trinity as we find it in the New Testament. But it makes sense that we get the Trinity on display at a much deeper level in the New Testament because, like I said, we see relationship and function as the main way Father, Son, and Spirit are different. And so it makes sense that when redemptive history goes into

fifth gear yeah that we see father son and spirit in greater clarity once we get to new testament but i don't think abraham was shocked when he got to heaven and understood the trinity more clearly i think he said i knew something like that was going on because of the messianic identity that he understood that the Son, Jesus, ultimately shows us, and the Father and the Spirit's working throughout the Old Covenant as well in ways that there's a personal nature to that. So we have a Trinitarian foundation laid in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. it comes into full display when redemptive history kicks in. Yeah, even in the creation narrative, let us make man in our image, plural. Even in creation, the Spirit's hovering over the waters

there with the Father. And certainly in the New Testament, it's clear that the Son is there in creation as creator with the Father and the Spirit. We get him working throughout the entire Old Covenant story. So again, the foundation's laid in the Old Testament, but comes into full display in the spirit. We get him working throughout the entire old covenant story. So again, the foundation is laid in the Old Testament, but comes in the full display in the new. Eric, well, thank you so much. We see just even the confessions of our own faith that we have a God who is three in one.

So it's critical and crucial that we understand how God operates as three in one. So thank you for helping provide clarity. You're welcome.