Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - Greg Gifford - Biblical Masculinity

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

Jonny Ardavanis is the Lead Pastor at Stonebridge Bible Church in Franklin, TN and the President of Dial In Ministries. He formerly served as the Dean of Campus Life at The Master’s University and as a Camp Director at Hume Lake Christian Camps. Jonny’s heart is to see people understand and love the Word of God and more so, to love the God of the Word. Jonny is married to Caity Jean and they have two precious daughters.In this episode, Jonny Ardavanis sits down with Dr. Greg Gifford, Professor of Biblical Counseling and Theology at The Master’s University, and discusses Biblical Masculinity. Watch VideosVisit the Website Pre-order Consider the LiliesFollow on InstagramFollow on Twitter

Hey folks, my name is Johnny Artavanis and this is Dial In. I have some exciting news for you. If you've been following along for any length of time, you may know that I've been writing a book on anxiety for the last couple years. It'll be published by Zondervan in October and it's now available for pre-order. The book is called Consider the Lilies,

Finding Perfect Peace in the Character of God. For so long as I worked in camping ministry and then college ministry, and then now as a pastor of a church in Franklin, Tennessee, I've worked with many people who are worried and anxious and fearful, and they're looking for the peace that only God can give them.

And the book that I wrote predominantly focuses on how the character of God, his different attributes, his sovereignty, his love, who he is as our father, how those realities provide us with the peace that Paul says surpasses all understanding. I'm so excited. And the book is now available for pre-order and you can buy that wherever books are sold and it'll be released on October 8th. Again, the name of the book is Consider the Lilies, Finding Perfect Peace in the Character of God. Now in this episode, I'm really excited.

I get to sit down with a friend and a guy I respect, Dr. Greg Gifford. He's the professor of theology and biblical counseling at the Master's University, where I served as the dean of campus life for three years before moving to Franklin, Tennessee. And in this episode, I discuss with Dr. Gifford biblical masculinity.. At times we live in a culture that jumps from one ditch into another and those two ditches being maybe hyper femininity on the one hand, and then this hyper masculinity on the other hand, that's identified by just this machismo, but it lacks the maybe grace and gentleness that marked the life of Jesus. And then right in the middle, and I don't even like to refer to it as the middle, but there is a category for what we're going to refer to as biblical masculinity. Let's dial in.

Dr. Gifford, thanks for sitting down. I wanted to talk to be a biblical man's man, we swing to the side of the spectrum of machismo that may be actually divorced from what manliness and masculinity looks like in the scripture. So someone might go from it's machismo and then someone will go, no, it's not that. It's gentleness and meekness, which would be true, but it also includes this element of strength and protection and provision. And it almost appears at times like our philosophy of manhood is a reaction against either the culture or what this church or group is doing. And it seems to not have the appropriate balance. And I don't even necessarily – I'm not fond of the word balance because it sometimes feels synonymous with compromise.

But there is a reality where it's strength under control. Talk to us just about biblical masculinity. What are some habits that men should implement where they could be a godly man? If I'm a woman, which I'm not, but what should they be looking for in just the habits of a man that, hey, this is a guy that could lead my family, things like that.

So I'll start with the first one. So let's start with the idea of godly masculinity, because I think if you paint that picture, that is what a lady wants. In the end, she wants a godly man, and I'm open to critique, but every time I say that, I say, ladies, I think you want a godly man. And I'm open to critique, you know, but every time I say that, I say, ladies, I think you want a godly man. And I've yet to have a lady come up and say, Dr. Gifford, I don't like I want a macho. You know, I want the over macho eyes, over masculine eyes. I want this kind of like brutish man or I want this effeminate man.

I want this man that just lacks leadership. Yeah. So I think that is the, that's what the lady wants in the end, but let's talk about the portrait itself. It seems that there's a few things that we have to wrestle with that we haven't always given careful place to. I've been surprised how much this is a popular topic. Cause I just always seem straightforward to me. Like I just, yeah, it's pretty black and white. Yeah. It was just like, you know, seems like a man does these things and doesn't do these things. And so what I tried to do on transformed is I tried to work through with, which is your podcast for people that don't know. Yeah.

Yeah. So transformed. And I was, I did like the seven part series on masculinity and I was trying to help people see what makes you a man and not a woman. And that's the, that's the Piperism. The Piper quote is. Which is like a fighting topic, you know, which is crazy, you know. But I'll hear it described like this, like a man is patient. It's like, well, a woman's patient. That's the fruit of the spirit. Yeah. We're all like, what are we talking about here? So some of those things, it was just like, yeah, I don't know if you've really answered the question. What is the character trait of a man?

So if a woman did not have that, it's okay in her sanctification. But if a man did not have that, then that's going to be a significant problem. And that's where I think you start to distill down. If you can begin to just ask, if a woman didn't do it, she would still be honoring to the Lord. In all fairness, if she didn't do that thing, she would still be honoring to the Lord. I think you're now getting at the character traits of- The distinction. Yes. The distinction. So, all right. So there's a couple of things you got to acknowledge.

Biology. I mean, like short of being ignorant to a certain degree, like our biology informs masculinity to include things like physical strength. You know, physically we are stronger primarily not because we work out more, but just because the Lord has built us differently musculately. And so just include biology as part of masculinity. You use your biology to inform the expression of your masculinity. Moving day. Yeah. Who are you calling on moving day? Dudes. The dudes.

Yeah. Can a lady move boxes and couches? Absolutely she can. More power to her if she wants to. Yeah. But everyone, like this is common knowledge. Everyone knows that the physical strength of a man

is greater than that of a woman, which is why the whole women's, the dudes competing in women's sports stuff is insane. It's yeah. It's so touchy right now because even an unbeliever knows there's a physical advantage. Yeah. Okay. So you got your biology, but then you also have these weird cultural expectations. If, if you're not careful, I think you can actually ignore what a North American culture expects of a man. What do I mean by that? I mean, technically, I could be here right now dressed like someone from Afghanistan, kind of a long robe.

And you'd be thinking like, hey, Greg, what's the matter with you? And I'm like, Johnny, this is acceptable masculinity in Afghanistan. And you need to learn to deal with it. Like, think of our Hudson Taylor or China. You got a lot of henna tattoos. I'm not going to show you my hands right now. But there are things where it's like you have to accept some of the way the culture expects a man to act. Yeah.

And that's parenting in a nutshell to a certain degree. It's like, why do I say no Barbie? Well, it's not the plastic fibers are going to infect you. And somehow that's sinful. It's well, that typically corresponds to being a female in our culture, boys. So that's why you don't play with Barbies. Now, how do you know when you say culture's wrong and I reject it? It's when the culture goes against your biology and against the Bible. So if culture says I need to have laser hair removal to be a man i say thank you but no thank you yeah so doing it so i think that's like yeah i think something what you're saying is is really helpful there is a level where everyone casts everything as a subjective opinion so my son

likes barbies like what's the big idea it's plastic what's the big idea? It's plastic. What's the difference between a soldier and an American girl doll? You know, you would say a lot because it corresponds to what's culturally identifiable with either masculinity or femininity. That's right. And you're maybe allowing for him to be desensitized to the distinction in those roles. And I think even in the realm of parenting, that's really important. So you talked about first our biology, then just the cultural expectation. I think it's true. Like sometimes people are like, yeah, well, this is what they wear over there. And you're like, well, over here, we wear pants and a t-shirt. We don't wear dresses. Just like people you've used the argument with like William Wallace was the manliest man in the world and he wore a kilt. You know, what's to prevent guys from

wearing a skirt? And you're like, well, first of all, we're not 500 years ago. Is every man wearing a skirt right now? No, no one's wearing a skirt. And I don't see any bagpipes. So I think that that idea is, it's really helpful. Like there's a cultural expectation and that cultural expectation is morphing, though. So then even like when you go, well, 30 years ago would have been a guy can't wear this. But now a new thing. Guys paint their nails black. Um, it's cool. Well, I would say historically that has been identified with females. They paint their nails. Dudes do not paint their nails, but then they would say, well, that's just a cultural argument. That was the cultural thing back then. That's morphed. How do you even go? Well, understand this from a historical perspective. You know, how would you respond to that rebuttal?

Yeah. I think some of those are easy rebuttals. The same thing I would say about wearing a dress or the same thing about wearing makeup. I mean, there are certain things where you say the better part of wisdom is not to miscommunicate the nature of who you are. Yeah. So am I going to say you're an absolute sin for painting your nails? I'm not going to say that, but I am going to say that you're miscommunicating masculinity in that way. Why? Because you cultivate masculinity or you cultivate femininity in another sense. Yeah. Sliding or climbing or yeah. Like one way or the other. Yes. So which are you an absolute sin? No, but you're, you're miscommunicating the fact that

you're a male by, by doing certain things that correspond to a female. Okay. So, no, I agree. And so one, biology. Two, cultural expectation. Three, what else? Biblical masculinity. Character traits. Character traits. Character traits.

Okay, talk to me about some of those. So think of what's acceptable for a lady to not do and honor Jesus. When we're told, 1 Corinthians 16, 13, act like men, that is a call for courage, boldness. If a man is a coward, that's actually unmanly and un-Christlike for him. Easy example. We're both married middle of the night. We hear that crash, you know, that noise in the house.

Usually for us, it's like a picture fell and my wife's like, Hey babe, I just heard something. I'm like, what? It literally is all the house. Usually for us, it's like a picture fell. And my wife's like, Hey babe, I just heard something. I'm like, what? It literally is all the pictures. Can you go see what that was? And I'm like, actually, no, I'm kind of scared. Can, can you go check it out? Honey, please go check the door. She brings the whacker. Are we safe? Not only is that unmanly of me, but it's actually going against godly character, which is courage. So does that mean that you can't be fearful as a man? It doesn't mean you can't be fearful. It just means that you're not going to be fear driven.

You are bold and courageous knowing that God is with you. An easy example is courage. First character trait. I think the next one is the idea of purity. Yeah. There are certain things, 1 Timothy 5, verse 2, treat all, you know, treat the older ladies as moms, excuse me, the younger women as sisters in all purity. So what does that mean? The way you relate to a woman should be in purity. You are relating to her as a sister or a mom with all purity.

Now, what does that mean? It's unmanly to be impure towards women. That's unmanly, but it's also un-Christlike. And in that way, there are things that I can say to a brother that I cannot say to a sister. There are things that sisters can say to sisters, sisters in Christ, brothers in Christ. But for me to say that to a female is unmanly and un-Christ-like. So that's distinctive for a man. There are parameters that are distinctive for men. A couple of others to think about.

Maybe just a quick thing on the purity thing. So in our world, being a man is sometimes being a woman. You know, you prove your manliness by being a woman. The James Bond. Yeah. Like from a biblical perspective, that's actually the antonym of biblical manhood. Because manhood has a proper perspective that this is a sister or a mother in Christ. And I'm to honor her with my purity, not to fraud her.

That's right. That's right. And I think purity is one way that you act dishonorable towards women. Yeah. But when I say honorable towards women, I think it's actually bigger than purity as well. You're respectful. Yeah. Chivalrous. You use your strength to protect women, not just your wife and sister or daughter, but that you're actually using your strength to care for women that are not related to you. There are certain aspects of what it looks like to be a

man and using your character, your physiology to care for women, even if you're not married to them or related to them, being honorable towards a woman. Okay. So you mentioned courage, purity. Yeah, purity. I would add initiative to this. And in fact, I think passivity is part of what Adam is confronted for in Genesis 3. You listen, because you listen to the voice of your wife. What's the breakdown there? Well, it's not that men should begin to ignore their wives. Like, oh, that's the key takeaway. It's that Adam failed to take the initiative to be a godly leader. That's right. So passivity is unmanly. It's just straight up. It's unmanly. I actually think it's okay for a lady to demonstrate that she's not going to be the one to take initiative. She's not going to be the one to step up and be the leader of her home. Like she is waiting on her husband to do those things. So that is a distinction. Like a lady can wait and not be the one to take initiative, but the man needs to take initiative and he needs to understand that in family and church, there are certain places where he is the one, he is the only one that can fulfill that role, so to speak.

So what does it mean to be manly? Well, a characteristic of a godly man is that he takes initiative. No one has to micromanage him. No one has to tell him how to run his own life. He owns his own life. He eats his own bread, 2 Thessalonians 3. Like he's got this mentality of I am not going to be told what to do in the sense of I'm not going to be micromanaged, but I'm going to have someone to spur me on. No, no, totally. Like you shouldn't have to come to me and tell me how to run my life and do basic things.

I'm taking initiative to take care of those things. That's so helpful. I remember my dad always used to, ever since I was a boy, he would always tell me, never let the grass grow under your feet, John. You know, the way you parent a son is different than the way he parented his five daughters. You know, but the main thing I would say, the main thing outside of like love the word of God was take initiative, take initiative, take initiative. And I think I watched so many guys kind of waiting for something to happen. But that is a huge distinction between a man and a woman. There is an acceptability of the passivity in a woman. It's actually sometimes healthy. She's not trying to take his spot or she's doing her best to know

her role and what's not her role and what's his role. Yeah. That's helpful. Any others you said just in that character realm? Yeah. I would include gentleness because I actually see that Ephesians 6 talks about not provoking your children to anger or Colossians 3 talks about not being harsh toward your wife. So why not front load gentleness? Well, I think the scripture includes it, but I think some of the most basic things are the first Corinthians 16, 13, which say be courageous, act like men, be courageous. But yet a man that starts to over machoize things can become a harsh man, which is why fathers are told not to exasperate their kids or be harsh with their wives. So what do I mean by that?

Well, if you want to choose like a synonym for not being harsh, that's what I'm calling gentleness. So does that mean a lady can be harsh? No, that's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying there are specific commands to men to not provoke their children or not be harsh toward their wife that are not given to women. So what am I, what are we calling that? That's gentleness, that he's even-keeled, he's meek, he's kind of mild-tempered. Part of it's just godliness, right? Like, he encourages other people, he's patient with other people, desires to build them up and edify them. He's not using, you know, crass, harsh or crude or rude language.

Yeah, I think sometimes people. But guys don't always get that. They often get to like this. Look out there, little lady, you know, like, let me get that for you. And it just comes off as gruff and harsh. And it's like, hey, you're unmanly right now because you're actually you're undermining the very character that God's called you to pursue. Yeah. Part of that is like obviously having like a sacrificial attitude. And part of that even goes along with the courage thing.

Like in order to be courageous in a lot of those different realms, you have to be others minded. And being others minded necessitates that you have a love for other people, which hopefully produces as a catalyst to gentleness towards them. And I do think even what you said about not front loading is important because a lot of people spectrum swing in their theology and philosophy. Oh, this is the gruff guys. I don't want to be the gruff guys. I don't want to be them. So manliness is gentleness and meekness, which is true. And you put it forth out of, you know, not necessarily because it's peripheral, but because there are certain things that maybe you should have fundamentally. And you could say that it should be, the first one you said again was?

Courageous. So your biology. Oh, yeah. Then you said that there is an element of cultural expectation. Then you mentioned those character traits of purity and courage. And then you could say just on top of that, and there's a godliness, Christ likeness. And then that Christ likeness is an umbrella that includes he says he's gentle and lowly. And then people will say, if you told them, well, Jesus is lowly and gentle, they'll say, well, he also drove the animals out of the temple.

And so there is a level where, well, yeah, exactly. You know, like there's a both and. And I think sometimes people are like, my Jesus, my manhood is to drive the animals out of the temple, Jesus. And then my Jesus is let the little children come. Yes. And they miss that there's a full orbs character of God there that should be our model for manliness. Yes, that's right. That's right.

Because if you overemphasize the courage, I think you're over machoizing certain things and everybody's driving a truck and and hunting and it's just like, okay, that's cool for some guys, but not every guy has to do that. Yeah, you're a Mustang guy. Yeah, it's got to be a Mustang or a Harley, honestly, or you're not manly. But then the other side is, but if I lead with gentleness, then the gentle guy needs to be courageous. And there may be the naturally meek Mr. Rogers type that actually needs to step his game up a little bit and be a little bit more proactive and being honorable to women or using his strength to care for them and being courageous simultaneously. So imagine this, this comes full circle now, because think you brought up the idea of, of ladies and how this benefits ladies. Imagine a godly man that is exhibiting these things.

A lady gladly and freely and joyfully wants to be a part of that. Yeah. It's not a chore to have to maybe biblically submit to a guy that's a godly, courageous, gentle leader. You know, like that's not a hard thing to sign up for in that regard. That's so important. I think, you know, even part of the local church is, I think there are

different guys that maybe have, you know, rub off on you in certain ways and go, man, that guy is gentle and meek in his character. And maybe this guy, like, let's say I'm a guy and I struggle with that courage part and I am passive. What would be your, you know, just your biblical input there? Obviously run to the scripture, see who Christ is. But how do I go about, man, I need to surround myself with men that can push me to be a man. Yes. What does that look like for me if I'm a young man or I'm 45 year old and I'm a passive guy?

What would you say? Yeah. Passivity is just as crushing as the angry husband. I think sometimes even more because angry, the angry husband is so palpably wrong. Yeah. But the passive guy is just Mr. Vanilla. Yeah. And he just never does.

He never rises up like he never helps. He's always got to be asked. The kids are yelling at mom and he doesn't intervene. We need more money. Yeah. It's just kind of like, he's just there. And most of the time he's not a bad guy. He's just very passive in that way. What he's got to see is that his sin is just as taxing as if he were explosively angry. Him being passive is destructive. And it's important to see it as a sin. I think most people would go,

are you serious? A sin? You know, just maybe continue to harp on it. Genesis 3. Yeah, like go and read Genesis 3. That's what the Lord tells to Adam because you listen to the voice of your wife. Because he was passive,

he then failed and transgression, Romans 5, enters in through one man. So this mentality you have to see as being dangerous. Yeah. The passive guy who's a passive single guy will be a passive married guy. Boom, roast it. Yeah. You just think about it.

If you're 25 and you're just kind of like putzing along through life and you're working part time at GameStop and there's not a whole lot going on. That's still kind of the appropriate cultural analogy. It usually resonates. I was at GameStop last night with one of my sons. I was like, yep, still. I didn't know that was still around. So, yeah, because there'll be passive single guys, will be passive husbands. Who are passive fathers who then just start to frustrate everybody in the process. Let's say you're a father talking to a, your daughter,

she's interested in a guy. I mean, for me, that would be one of my first questions. Yes. I use the language. Is he a go-getter? Does he get after it? Does he take initiative? Because to your point, it's more dangerous than a guy that has explosive anger issues and has more damage. So, yeah, what does that guy do? Or what does this young man who's single or this married man that's looking at his three kids, you know, nagging his wife, and he's just got a default position of passivity? What does he go do? Yeah, these guys need to learn what to do if they don't know what to do. Yeah.

Like fill in the ignorance with biblical knowledge and then do it yeah so think let's just do it yeah yeah there's a certain sense in which maybe you don't know how to be a parent and you got to learn that skill totally i'm open to that so you you use the authoritative word of god to fill in what's lacking in your understanding and then you have to say to him that knows to do the right thing and doesn't do it to him. It's like, I know what I should be doing. I need to do it now. That's going to be the biggest difference. So skills, learn the skills, learn the listening skill, learn the parenting skill, learn the conflict resolution skill, learn those things you may not know, but then you need to implement because if you don't, you can learn all of this truth from the

scripture and vex your family even more, frustrate the people that are around you even more. Implementation being a hearer and a doer of the word. So if that guy is hearing this right now, there has to be kind of this shock into action. You're going to frustrate those that are around you. You're going to damage things that really matter if you don't learn what God's word says and then implement and obey what it's calling you to do, whether you feel like it or not, doing what God's word's calling you to do. That's so helpful. And I think even rooting in all these things and even what you're saying, this is a scriptural command, act like a man. And so understanding even our vulnerabilities and our

dispositional tendencies are so important. So, Greg, thanks for just your input and regarding one, that there is a biological component. There's a cultural expectation. Then there's a character, kind of a principle set that we're to be courageous and pure, that we're to take initiative and we're to be gentle, appropriately gentle. And so I think all these things are important. My prayer for my own life is that I'd be a godly man. I always pray, Lord, help me to be a godly man, because I think there is a distinction

between what godliness looks like for my wife and what godliness looks like for me. And so I think even the way that you've set up that distinction is so helpful. So thank you for your time and your input in this regard. Yeah, thanks for having me. Absolutely. distinction is so helpful so thank you for your time and your input thanks for having me absolutely