Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - Harry Walls - Biblical Leadership

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

Jonny Ardavanis is the Lead Pastor at Stonebridge Bible Church in Franklin, TN and the President of Dial In Ministries. He formerly served as the Dean of Campus Life at The Master’s University and as a Camp Director at Hume Lake Christian Camps. Jonny’s heart is to see people understand and love the Word of God and more so, to love the God of the Word. Jonny is married to Caity Jean and they have two precious daughters.In this episode, Jonny Ardavanis sits down with Pastor Harry Walls, Vice President of Student Life & Campus Pastor at The Master's University, and discusses Biblical Leadership. Watch VideosVisit the Website Pre-order Consider the LiliesFollow on InstagramFollow on Twitter

Well, Harry, thanks for sitting down. For anybody that knows me, they know that I love you. You're one of my favorite guys on planet earth. You're a great golfer, but a great friend. And so I'm thankful for your input and your perspective in my life. I want to talk to you in this episode about principles for spiritual leadership, or just maybe even leadership in general. Maybe sometimes people don't necessarily view themselves as a leader, but everyone to some degree is, whether in a friendship or a ministry or a service capacity, need to understand these principles. So I want to ask you, what are some biblical principles for leadership and where do we look in God's Word to find some of those? Yeah, no, great question. A, I agree that everybody has potential influence, which equals leadership. Leadership is influence, baseline.

And that's for everybody. For everybody. Because it's not rooted in position. It's rooted in influence. And sometimes you can mistake a place or a position as necessary to have influence, and that would not be an accurate perception or conviction. Leadership is influence, and influence has ingredients, factors that contribute to your ability to influence somebody else or others. So my favorite passage, and I do teach this quite frequently because it's so valuable to me, is 1 Thessalonians chapter 2. And the reason I like it is because the Thessalonian church, by inspired testimony, was a church that excelled. You would give them a letter grade of an A. You know, Corinth, you would give maybe a D. Other churches, maybe a C. But you would give the Thessalonian church an A.

And the reason you would give it an A is because Paul says, you were imitators of me. You were. You were imitators of Christ. You were noble examples in the northern part of Greece and in the southern part of Greece. In other words, in the whole country, Macedonia and Achaia. Everybody knows about your testimony. So much so, he says, I don't have need to say anything. And you can argue you have no need to say anything because everybody knows your testimony. Or you could argue your testimony is so good, I have nothing to add to help you achieve a greater influence. All right, so that's the setup, chapter one.

Chapter two is Paul's testimony, 12 verses, the first 12, talk about what he did and how he did it. The kind of the characteristics that governed or influenced all of it, the characteristics, and then the actual functions. And you feel this in 1 Thess 4 when he says, listen, I'm going to command you to love, but you're already loving. That's in parentheses. I just want you to excel still more. In other words, you're already doing it. Just do more of it. Yeah. So what kind of church does that? Well, the kind of church or the kind of people that are influenced by a leader like Paul. Well, Paul, the kind of church or the kind of people that are influenced by a leader like

Paul. Well, Paul, what kind of leadership influence did you have? And so I'm going to say, if you want to be a leader and an influencer, deploy these motivations or characteristics, and then do this stuff. So number one, he says, I suffered a lot in Philippi before I got here, but I'm still speaking boldly. And I'm going to argue that you have to have courage if you're going to influence anybody because everything you say isn't going to be welcomed. Even if it's said graciously, it may not be welcome. So, you have to behave graciously, trusting in God, even though you may endure loss and difficulty because of the truth you proclaim for God. Number two, he says, I came to you boldly.

I wasn't boldly and purely. I wasn't motivated to get your stuff. He basically said I didn't come with a pretext of greed. I wasn't looking for you to give me things, nor was I looking for your applause. I wasn't looking for the glory of men. All I'm looking for is to please God and do what I do for the glory of God. And I'm going to argue that if you don't have pure motives in influencing, some people want to influence because they want to be somebody. Hey, I'm a leader.

Somebody knows my name. I write books on leadership. I have a following. I have so many followers on Instagram or whatever is social media. I'm going to argue that if the motive is about yourself and not firstly for God, I do it for God and I do it for them, whoever the influenced person is, for my children, for my group. It's impure and therefore it's defective. Thirdly, in that passage, he starts off by saying, and I could have asserted my authority as an apostle, but I behaved, I proved to be like a nursing mother. That's verse 6 transitioning to verse 7. So, is Paul an apostle? Yes. Is that an authoritative position? Yes, it is. Do you have

influence in positional leadership? Yes, you do. But why didn't Paul use that? He said, I proved to be like a nursing mother. I could have asserted my authority. I had it, but I didn't. I behaved intimately and relationally, like hyper-relational. And here's my takeaway from that. If you're going to impact people, I like to say, if you're going to impact the people that matter the most, that's the people in your sphere, in the things that matter the most, you need to do it relationally.

You need to do it courageously, purely, and you need to do it relationally. I proved to be a nursing mother. Here's the bottom line I deal in this. The force of positional authority is not as impactful as relational ministry. That's a powerful thought. I'm a father. I'm a vice president. Yeah, because Paul did it kind of flexed on them. Yeah, I have authority. I'm a vice president. I can exercise that. I'm a father. I have authority. I'm a husband. I have authority.

But here's the bottom line. I'm an elder. I have authority. But that's not as impactful as relational ministry, which is why Paul said I didn't use it. Not that I didn't have it. Sometimes you do have to use it. But make it the rarer time rather than the normative time. And I think sometimes, at least in my life, I'm tempted to default to positional authority. So the force of positional authority not as impactful as relational ministry.

And then kind of the final big idea about all of the things that he did, he not only did that courageously, purely, and relationally. He did it consistently. And I take that to be the beginning of verse 7 says, I proved to be like a nursing mother, proved. And he's going to say all along the way, you are witnesses, just as you know. He's going to say it over and over again. The Thessalonians watch this over and over during his extended tenure in that city. And he says, you know this. I proved to be, which means I did it so consistently, so often. And the tense of the verb lends to that.

It's the collection of actions in the past that create kind of a photo album of, hey, this is what I was. And you know I am. Okay. So there's consistency. And I think leadership, Tom, sometimes, at least with me, I can have spasms of motivation, action, and I'm not consistent. And consistent leadership is powerful leadership because everything doesn't get done by one pass. Yeah. It's staying at it, staying with it. So that's the way he did what he did. And then I highlight the fact if I'm a person who wants to be an influencer, I'm modeling him.

Nursing mother, I have a tender, caring, loving approach to people. It's loving leadership. It's soft leadership. It's not harsh. I proved to be like a nursing mother. Is there anything softer than a nursing mother? Of course there isn't. Is she getting frustrated with her baby because the baby's not nursing correctly?

No, she's not. When you're leading people, you need to be gracious and you need to be tender. That's what he's saying. And they said, I loved you. He said, you were to be tender. That's what he's saying. And then he said, I loved you. He said, you were beloved to me. I delighted in you. And that delight, that motivation, next verse, basically says, and that caused me to not only share the gospel with you, which is spiritual influence, but my own life as well. So I take that to be, you love tenderly and you love passionately. You were very dear to me, he says. It's a very rare Greek word. I longed for you. Like you matter

to me. Johnny, if I'm really influencing you, let me tell you what's going to happen. You're going to know I love you. That's as powerful as any words I could speak, no matter how profound those words are. If they're uncoupled with an affection that cares, with a kind of gentle passion for you and your life, it limits my influence. I'm not saying I don't have any because you and I both know there's profound statements that people make, and it's beneficial. It's just not as beneficial as the ones made out of a heart of affection and a heart of personal revelation. He said, I'm sharing my own life, my psuche, like who Harry Walls really is. So many times in our, I think, Christian spiritual circles, you can talk cliché-ish. You can talk cliche-ish. You know, you can talk superficially, kind of you use words and terms that are spiritual and undeniable. But there's something missing authentically and

in reality that's coming out of your own heart. And if I share something with you that is personal out of my life, united with the truth of God's Word and the affection of my heart towards you, let me tell you what that is. Influential. That's impactful. So, the things that Paul, and he said, I'll work like a, he said, I was like a mother who worked night and day. I labored, I suffered. So that's the idea of I'm sacrificing for you. This is not costing you anything. You're not paying me for this. I'm not getting some kind of reward for this. I'm working my life schedule, pattern, strength I'm lending in order to influence you. And I just see that as sacrificial. So it's other-centric. And then I really like this, and this is so central. He says, you were witnesses. He says that multiple times, but he starts verse 10 with this statement. He

said, you were witnesses. And he talks about his own testimony. And he says how devoutly, uprightly, and blamelessly I was toward you. Now, devout, hosios, it's a passion term. My heart burned. It was a heart for God. I had devotion to God. Uprightly, as I'm submitted to the Word of God, I'm living according to the standard of God, the rule of God, which is what uprightness is. It's from the law, from the code, from the rules. I was upright because I submitted to the Word of God. I had a heart for God and I had a reputation, blameless reputation, in the world because of my testimony for God. You trusted me. And that's all that is, is integrity.

I lived with integrity. I didn't just say it. You saw it. I lived it. You can't, you don't have credible influence if you don't have a life that's credible. Yeah. Fair enough? Yeah, fair enough.

You know, we also, parents say one thing, do another thing, who's listening? Yeah. Pastors say one thing, do another thing, who's listening? Friends see you do one thing

and live another thing or say one thing and live another thing? Not listening. It's hypocritical. Undermines. Credibility involves integrity. Integrity is something

they see in you, not just hear from your mouth. Heart for God, submission to the Word of God, blameless in testimony in the world in which you live for God. Three verbs in verse 11. He said, I exhorted you, I urged you. Okay, exhort, parakaleo, you know that term, everybody does, comforter. It means to come alongside in comfort. The reason it's not that meaning is because the next word is that, comfort or encouragement. Two ways you can understand parakaleo. One, to come alongside and help, comfort, Holy Spirit comforting one another.

50% of the time it's used as called to your side. It's exhort or urge. So I'd say, Johnny, join me. I'm calling you, para, to my side. Join me. Join me for what? Whatever righteous thing I would want you to do, I'm inviting you to do it with me. I want you to be a praying person, come pray with me.

I want you to be an evangelizing person, come share the good news with me. I want you to be a meditating person, let's meditate together. It's calling you to where I am. Okay, here's influence. You got to be a leader, not necessarily because of what you say first, but you're out ahead of them and you're inviting them to join you. Okay, that's exhortation. It's not just words. I'm modeling it.

I'm inviting you to do it with me. The next word is a combination word. Para is alongside. Muthamai has the idea of talking to them, sharing. It literally means sharing a story or a narrative where you come alongside to encourage them with words. So one is I'm calling you to me. The second one is I'm coming alongside to encourage you with words from me. So, Johnny, you're discouraged. Yeah. Stonebridge is a tough sled. Franklin's not what you hoped it would be. Whatever that might be, you call part of what an influencer leader does is comes alongside and encourages with words. Yeah. Okay. So it's not just, come join me. Yeah. I'm not just challenging you.

Yeah. I'm encouraging you. Yeah, I'm building them up. Yeah, because look, life's hard. I like to say you're coming alongside because being a Christian is not an easy walk. And you want to keep them from despairing, doubting, or stopping. So there's a, okay, I'm a parent. Is it going to be hard to be a Christian child in this culture? Of course it is. Is I going to face rejection and challenges and friend group issues? Yes, they are. What are they

going to need from a parent who's a leader? Encouragement. Not just challenge to read your Bible. Come join me and read with me. But I want to help you continue on when you don't want to go on. Hey, you can do this. I'm with you. You're not alone. Those kind of things.

Really, really important. Because that's what Paul said. Three verbs. I exhorted. I encouraged. And. Because that's what Paul said. Three verbs. I exhorted. I encouraged. And the last one says I implored. You know what that means? I persuaded you.

Johnny, you got to do this. Yeah. And it comes from the word martyr. Martyr rule of mine. It has the idea of bearing witness. You're such an avid, passionate person about whatever it is you're calling people to. You're willing to die for it. You know what that is? Infectious. So I like to tell anybody, if you're a leader, persuade them from your own life. Hey, you should do this. I'm doing this.

It's awesome. Buy this driver. You can knock the ball 30 yards farther, Johnny. I'm hitting the ball like I've never hit it before. That's martyruamai. It's working for me. You got to do this. Or, hey, don't buy that driver. I bought that, spent all kinds of money. It doesn't do anything they promised it would do.

Yeah, it is a lemon. Dude, don't spend your money on that. If you're going to spend money, do something else. That's martyriumai in reverse. Hey, Johnny, I did this. I dated an unsaved girl. Don't you do that. Yeah.

Okay? It nearly killed me. Or it did. Yeah. Martyriumai is both the positives and the negatives, and it's the persuasion of my witness in life. And it says, Paul said, I did all of that, so you'd walk in a manner worthy. So I know that's a little bit of an extended view, but I promise you, if you want to impact people, that's the plan. Yeah, I think it's so important, even what you're saying.

Like if every parent is a leader because there's somebody that exercises influence and leadership is influence and influences leadership to your point. So someone that's going, well, I'm a low level employee. I'm not a manager or a CEO or a vice president. They need to understand that if they're a friend, they have influence, which is also leadership. So you're talking about courage. There's a level of purity. There's a level of graciousness. You're talking about even the way that we employ our words, which is that we're to encourage and exhort and implore. I even like how Paul says it in 1 Thessalonians 5.11. He says, encourage one another as you are already doing and then keep building each other up,

meaning he encourages them to encourage people as he encourages them that they're already in the habit of encouraging. And so I think that's so helpful, Harry, because a lot of these principles for leadership, from a secular perspective, the world has their own ideas about how to influence people. And even what you're saying about the force of positional authority, never being like that of relational ministry is so helpful. You don't have to flex on people all the time. You come alongside them.

You love them. Even what Paul says, I was tenderhearted towards you. And I'm thankful for even your example of that in my life. So thank you. You're welcome. And let me just add one more thing. In my authority, I'm a vice president here.

I can make students come to chapel. Yeah. I can exercise authority. But I can't make them sing. And what you want is them to sing. And that's a product of relationally loving them and releasing their heart for the things that matter. And if power or force is your major tool, you're not releasing anything. You're actually inhibiting it because it's hollow. It's dutiful. And what you're after, and we say it a lot here, is not behavioral modification, but heart transformation. And hearts don't change

without loving leadership. And leadership is influence, but it has to be governed by love. One thing that I was thinking of was you were talking about verse 11 that I didn't mention. He said, I exhorted, I encouraged, I implored, here's a key statement, each one of you. And the word each is a Greek word which has to do each individual one of you, which my take on that is I led you uniquely. Listen, you're not your brother. Yeah. And your brother's not you.

Yeah. What worked with your sisters, not necessarily going to work for you. Yeah. People are people. And there is a unique precision about leadership because what works for Johnny may not work for Harry. I played college sports. I played high school sports. I had coaches that were screamers. That might work for somebody. Guess who it didn't work for? Me. Go ahead and scream at me. I'm just shutting you off. I'm not impacted. That's Harry. Some

guys needed screamed at to get results. I'm not that guy. So leadership is nuanced is the point. And it's not determined by my nuance of what I preferred. Harry's this kind of a leader. No, Harry adapts in his leadership style and approach based on who Johnny is, what Johnny needs. And that is a personal kind of leadership. Child A is not child B. There's principles that carry over, but real influence has to be nuanced to their differences. Yeah. That's my conviction about verse 11.

I did this to each one of you. Yeah, I think that's such a, you know, even like a good idea just in regards to if sometimes you can get under the false impression that if you're a leader, people should get in line, they should fall behind you. And Paul's idea of leadership is to learn how people individually can be led, their dispositions, their temperament, you know, because I think sometimes leadership, you can view it through a selfish lens. You know, I'm going to charge and they need to follow. But Paul's saying I exhorted, implored, and encouraged each one of you. So, Harry, that's so helpful. Well, thank you for your perspective and your input and even your influence towards me.

You're welcome, Johnny.