Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - How Do I Know my Calling? Jonny Ardavanis

Episode Date: July 23, 2024

In this episode, Jonny Ardavanis discusses how we can discern God’s will, direction, or calling for our life.Many people today ask: “What should I look for in a spouse? What career field should I pursue? Should I go into ministry or business?” At times, believers may be paralyzed by the abundance of opportunities before them and in turn, never end up making a decision at all. In this episode, Jonny articulates that when we are already walking in holiness, God’s Spirit primarily directs us through our desires, our gifting, the input of others in our life, and even the needs we see around us.The Lord is our Shepherd, He doesn’t lead us down paths of obscurity, He leads us in such a way that we can honor Him, be used by Him, and enjoy the life He has given to us under the sun.To pre-order Jonny’s forthcoming book entitled, “Consider the Lilies: Finding Perfect Peace In The Character of God” visit https://amzn.to/3zU9XJOJonny Ardavanis is the Lead Pastor at Stonebridge Bible Church in Franklin, TN and the President of Dial In Ministries. He formerly served as the Dean of Campus Life at The Master’s University and as a Camp Director at Hume Lake Christian Camps. Jonny’s heart is to see people understand and love the Word of God and more so, to love the God of the Word. Jonny is married to Caity Jean and they have two precious daughters.Watch VideosVisit the Website Pre-order Consider the LiliesFollow on InstagramFollow on Twitter

You can glorify God just as much by being a kindergarten teacher as you can by being a conference preacher. And I think people lose sight of that. So they're like, man, if I'm not in ministry, then I'm going to be doing something that doesn't matter to the kingdom of God. No, all of work is before the eyes of God and for his glory. Okay, we're back. One of the things that we haven't talked about on the podcast that maybe one day will be the diet we're both on, which consists strictly of meat, cheese, and eggs. It's called the carnivore diet. I've been getting a lot of questions. People say, Hank,

every time I tune in, you're down 15 pounds. How is this possible? And you just say, it's all the secrets out. It's all the cheese I'm eating. And literally as we're clicking live, I'm realizing for the first time, I might be blending in perfectly with our surroundings. And so if you're listening to this, this doesn't apply to you, but for those who are tuning in, I apologize. I'm probably just a floating. Don't be conformed to the world, but you're conforming to the wall. I'm a chameleon. Okay. So we're talking about the will of God. In our last episode, we talked about kind of those specific elements of the revealed will of God, God's will of decree. That's the objective always is going to come to pass. Ephesians 1.11, he's working everything out according to the counsel of his will. Psalm 1.15.3, our God is in the heavens. He does what

he pleases. That's God's will of decree, His sovereign will. Yeah, His sovereignty. Yeah. The second one we looked at is just that God's will of desire. And we touched on just that that is, I know I have both an iPad and a notepad here, but that's God's will for your purity, God's will for your gratitude, God's will for your suffering, and God's will for your service, that your life be laid down on the altar of sacrifice and in serving other people. Now, kind of what we're going to look at in this episode is the specific elements of direction, God's will of direction.

He's a good shepherd. How do I know where he is leading me? How do I know what to do, who I should marry, if I should buy that house, different things like that. And that's what we'll touch on here. This is probably, I mean, if you're clicking on the podcast from the first place and actually looking at the will of God, this is probably what's coming to mind first and foremost. At least that's what I would think of, of like nitty gritty day-to-day living. How am I supposed to

discern the will of God? In the last episode, you mentioned briefly, it's not a riddle, it's clear. And yet I'm going to wake up tomorrow and have to make a cascading of decisions on what I eat. It's going to be meat and eggs, but what I do for work, Lord willing, how many children we have, the practical questions of living. Yeah. And so I would encourage you if you haven't already listened to that one or watched that one to go back because that kind of serves as the foundation for everything we'll talk about here because we kind of view the will of God from a selfish perspective at times. It's about me.

Well, God's will is ultimately about His glory and also about our good. But I think as we discern the specific will of direction in our life, of God's will, I think there are maybe four main categories, once again, that we'll look at. And the first of which is that God's will of direction is revealed by our gifting. And I don't think these are in any specific order, but in Romans 12, 6, it teaches us that every single believer has a unique gift that is specific to you that you are to employ in the body of Christ.

And the Bible says that you're to put that gift to work. God's desire for us is that we use what he has invested into us through the power of his spirit. And God's providences are often interlapping with that gift. And that's important to understand. Now, what I'm not necessarily referring to is your career.

I once was sitting down with Carl Truman. He wrote that book, The Rise and Fall of the Modern Self. And he just said, hey, this is kind of a novel concept in many ways. If you ask someone 200 years ago, what do you want to do when they grow up? They would have said, well, my father was a farmer. Yeah, my grandfather was a farmer. My great-grandfather was a farmer. And so I'll be a farmer.

And so we do get crippled by, you know, the American dream, go do whatever you want. But there is a reality where if you're a Christian, there is a specific gifting that God has given to you. And we know that you're supposed to use that in the body of Christ. And that sometimes that spiritual gifting lines up with the natural gifting, but those are very different, but God's spirit doesn't lead by crowd. He leads by the individual. And he delights, I think, to match the gifts with the opportunities that he has placed in front of us. So I think that would be one of those things to just consider. Hey, what am I uniquely good at? You know, like I'm not in the NBA because I'm not uniquely gifted from a height perspective or from an athletic perspective.

Or with working shoulders, yeah, like our hand-eye coordination. But if you could apply that to that realm, yeah, if you're a uniquely gifted pianist and you're a prodigy at seven years old, that might be one of the things that God has put in front of you because he delights to match the gifting with the opportunity. Now, those gifts, they're not rights for us to use. They're privileges and they're gifts that God has given to us to employ. I think even when you think about, and we can get this all twisted because people are like, well, I'm really good at this, so I don't want to spend my life doing that. And I think that would also be a wrong way of

looking at it because Jesus was the most gifted man to ever walk the face of the earth. And he was between the ages of 12 and 30 sanding down beams and hammering nails as a carpenter. That wasn't below him. That was what the Lord put in front of him. And that was the opportunity that he had to provide for his family. So sometimes there's this kind of haughtiness regarding your gifting and that thing is below me or I'm overqualified. And that can be really misconstrued. Really quickly, and I don't want to push us down a rabbit hole, but when you say gifting, are you referring to, I hear you referring to vocational, I mean, piano, or I'm really good

with numbers or I'm communicative. How are these the same or different than the gifts outlaid for us to be used in a local church context? Does that question make sense? Yeah, well, I think that in some ways they're distinct and in some ways there's a confluence of the two. Let's say someone's really gifted at accounting. You know, he may also have the spiritual gift of mercy, but he may be the most equipped person in the church to help handle administration for the benevolence fund, right? So I think, you know, if someone's really good at piano, they may also be really equipped to serve in that capacity. But obviously there's also this spiritual gift where you could

be, not everybody that has the gift of teaching is an extrovert because they're really good naturally at communicating. So there's a distinction, but then oftentimes there's an overlap. I think one of the things that churches need to do is make sure they're not just hiring people that are naturally gifted for positions that should be fulfilled by people that are spiritually gifted in those capacities that have the gift of mercy and teaching and leadership and whatever it may be. But I do uh it there is this kind of maybe pride over our gifting or even this idea that sometimes you know um i keep on hearing at times you know enjoy what you do well you've heard the phrase as well enjoy what you do and you'll never work a day in your life i'm just waiting for my cool yeah and I would just tell most young people today,

hey, if you're looking for a job where you will feel like you've never worked a day in your life, you're going to need to go to another planet because work is work. I love my job. I love being a pastor. But at the end of the day, there are plenty of days where it feels like a job.

It's a commission that the Lord has given to me, but everything good in life is on the other side of hard. And I think we live in a world that's tried to minimize. Yeah, you know what God's will for your life is that you find a job where you never feel like you've ever worked. Well, I just will tell, I will tell young people, I don't know anybody that's done anything meaningful

for the kingdom of God where it isn't labor. That's why Paul says, my life is being poured out like a drink offering. He's not sitting on the beach. He's running the race. And I think that gets lost. In the last episode, you mentioned, you alluded to Genesis 50.

I mean, just as you say that, all the different Bible stories are coming to mind. Like Paul wouldn't have said that to your point. Joseph, poor Joseph is seeking to use his gifting, but he's using the same gifting in a prison and also as second in command in Egypt. And once you state it, so obviously it's, it's so clear that that's a statement we can make in a social media saturated 2024, but would have probably been pretty alien to most of the people throughout the history of the world. Yeah. And so I do think, and I, you know, even come back to it, God, God leads you through your

gifting, but I think, you know, how did he make you, you know, is one of the things that you should consider, but I wouldn't get stuck there that like, oh, God made me this way and I'm not going to go work selling insurance because that's not really what the Bible is talking about. It's talking about, yeah, there are certain ways in which you could be hardwired. And at times, you're just going to need to get a job to pay those bills, you know? So it's a starting place. Yeah, it's a starting place. You know, I would consider too, yeah, how are you serving in the church?

Those things are always being overlapped. But I wouldn't tell a guy that is afraid of his own shadow to become a door-to-door salesman, right? But like my brother-in-law is a door-to-door salesman, and he's just got to like, hey, if I get rejected, it doesn't matter. I like talking to people. I love strangers. So there is a level where like – and there was a job, and it was a great opportunity. So I would then also say that God leads us directionally by area of exposed need. And I would say specifically, this relates to like a ministerial context or even from a job perspective. It says,

but from a ministerial context, it says in Romans 14, 7, for not one of us lives for himself and not one of us dies for himself. He says, if we live, we live for the Lord. And if we die, we die for the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or we die, we are the Lord's. I include this here because I think one of the ways that the Lord leads is by exposing us to the needs around us. Let's just look to the scripture here because that's the best examples we're going to find. Paul's desire was to preach Christ in Romans 15, where Christ has not yet been named. That is the burden on his heart. And this is a convergence, both of his gifting as an evangelist, but also his desire and burden to accommodate and meet the needs that he sees in specific cities. William Carey, for instance, who is the father of modern missions or Hudson Taylor,

they didn't wake up with a piece of toast that was burnt in the shape of India. They heard about the need for the gospel in those areas. You know, sometimes I'll talk to different people that are interested in missions and they don't know where to go and they maybe look up to the skies and there's a cumulonimbus, you know, shape of Argentina and that's the will of God or there's a banana. And then they become a weatherman. Yeah, exactly. That's the first time I said cumulonimbus. That took me back to like second grade science.

I don't know if I'm saying it right, but I think in my life, God has led me most often by exposure to need. When I took a job at Humolite Christian Camps, it was because they didn't have a guy. And I went, man, I need to do this. And I felt like an opportunity where there was a hole. And man, that's something that I wanted to meet. The Lord put that burden on my heart to meet that need. When I went to the university at Masters to work there, it was because there was a missing need.

And there was a hunger for, you know, when I came here to Tennessee, there was a hunger for the Bible. There was a need for a pastor that at this church, and I wanted to meet that need. So I think when you're considering like, hey, how do I discern the will of God? I sometimes ask, you know, for my life, I sometimes ask people, what are you burdened for? What do you think about when you're up at night? I talked to someone at church yesterday, a sweet woman who's really burdened about kind of local outreach, different types of ministries,

cares about the children in our community. And she's burdened to meet those needs. Now, that's not something that I feel like that's specific for me. I don't think about feeding the children in the local community schools. That's just not something the Lord has put on my heart, but I saw her and I wanted to share in that excitement. But that's part of the way God is leading her is that she says, I can't sleep at night

with all these kids need to know the Lord. And they're right in our very community. You know, if you asked me what excited me, I would probably tell you the jungles of Papua New Guinea and the training pastors in Africa. But I sometimes do, you know, don't think about the people in my very neighborhood. And there's some people that are like, hey, that's Africa. I just want to minister right here, right now. But that's exposure to need and in those burdens to meet those needs.

Yeah. And it piggybacks to your earlier point on God's sovereignty, because in his sovereignty and his in his all of his creation, he's weaving together all the stories of humanity. And so it fits that he'd be placing you kind of in the path of the ways in which you can use, leverage your gifting for his glory. Yeah, exactly. And it's convergence of both those factors, the gifting and the exposure to need. That's why when, you know, I, even when I came and visited the church, there was, hey, we're hungering for a pastor in this area. And we're looking for a guy that loves to teach the Bible. And so, well, I feel like the Lord has gifted me to teach the Bible.

There's a need. So you see those, that confluence there. The third kind of element where I feel like the Lord leads us is I've already stated it a little bit, but through our desires. God renews our desires as our minds are renewed in the word of God. And there is a level where I remember one time I was working in business and I got the opportunity to go work at Hume Lake, which was a summer camp in the woods. And I had gone to school to be a CPA and a CFA. And that was what I wanted to do. And there was this, the possibility of going to work at a summer camp where there was going to be able to work with a lot of students. And I remember talking with my uncle and my dad

and different men in my life. And they just said, well, Johnny, what do you want to do? And I just said, I want to do camp. And in my mind, I'm like, well, what sounds fun about it? Like, I just love being with students. I think the idea of like being, you know, living up there and preaching and the dynamic of all that that could entail. And even the idea of being outside and God's creation, I was kind of working inside 70 hours a week. And I was like, man, I could go up to the beautiful mountains. And I'm like, maybe that's not good. Maybe that's a bad thing that like, I would enjoy it. You know, like, I think overthink that, like it cannot be God's will for my life if it's something that I would enjoy.

And I think, no, God is, causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. He doesn't withhold any good gift from those who walk in uprightness. What kind of a father would give his son a snake, that extra, you know, piece of bread or a stone? And he's a good God. And not to unwind what you said prior,

just knowing your background it god gave you a desire in your heart is what you're getting at for that for that ministry and also i mean i don't want to put you on the spot but i remember in you kind of sharing this story there was still the part of you that thought like practically i'm leaving a very financial financially successful kind of startup environment in the business realm to go to that Hume Lake. It makes me think of last episode where knowing the promises of God and knowing the things that God cares about for your sanctification, it became an easier decision when it felt like it got reduced all the way down. I'm putting words in your mouth. But between I can fulfill kind of God's call on my life in both categories, but really this one lights up my desire to follow God. And this one potentially

has a greater monetary outcome. Yeah. And I think there's different things that like you look at. And I also think one of the things in discerning the will of God is that your next move isn't your last move. So I think that was one of the things, you know, I was talking with a guy, Mike, when I took that job at Hume Lake in the past, and he just was telling things, you know, I was talking with a guy, Mike, when I took that job at Hume Lake in the past, and he just was telling me, you know, when you're younger, every decision you make is going to set up the trajectory for the next 50 years, you know, and I was 24, 25. And he just said, hey, if this isn't what the Lord has, then you can go back to what you're doing in a year. And obviously you don't want to make decisions like that, but I do think that it's freeing, you know,

just to know that like, hey, if you're walking in the spirit and your life is rooted in the word of God, you're not going to make one decision that's going to throw off the entire course of your life because God's going to redirect you in his providence. And I've seen that a few times. I was at this spot for a few years,

this spot for a few years, and now I'm so thankful I've been here for a year, but, and I hope I die here, you know, like, and this is where I think the Lord has us for a long time. But I think kind of like, I wanted to come. I was excited to come. And I think that the Lord is, you know, the first lie ever told is that god is not

for you he's not a good and kind god you know and so i think when we're we're realizing these are the opportunities the lord has put in front of me i would really enjoy this that's just an expression of the kindness of god and part of the way that he's made you in the parable of the talents where jesus is talking about the people that you know there's the one two five coins ten coins and uh the one that buries his talents one, two, five coins, 10 coins. And the one that buries his talents comes back to Jesus. And he says, I knew that you were a hard man or to God in the parable. And that idea is so false when you look at the scripture,

a hard man. No, he's a good and gracious God. And he delights when we delight in the opportunities that he's put in front of us. That doesn't mean our life is easy. It means that at times the greatest joys in life are from the tasks that he puts in front of us that often contain the greatest difficulty. Yeah. So you've laid out two kind of internal. So one is discern your gifting, practical starting point. Two, is there an obvious need that God has brought into your life kind of directly? So that's maybe more external looking.

Third, we kind of retrace back to desires. Is that light up your heart to pursue that outcome? And then fourth, maybe another external one, what would be the fourth to discerning the will of God as it relates to direction? Yeah, I think the fourth one would be wisdom. And even going back to what you're saying about lighting up your heart, that can be interpreted in different ways

because I'm not an emotional decision maker. I'm very analytical. And so I'm not going like, this is it. The Lord is kind. And there's no- I'm laughing just as I've gotten to know you. Yeah, I'm not an emotional person. Yeah, I'm not like, there's no theme music behind,

oh, this is it. This is what the Lord has. I've seen you write sermons. There's usually scores going on in the background. Well, there is, but it's like Trent Reznor. It's the social network. It's not like Cinderella. So I think the other one would just be the wisdom from God's word and the wisdom from

other people. We live in a world of information. If you want to know whether an avocado is a fruit or a vegetable, you can Google it. Which one is it? I don't know. But if you want to know the national animal of Scotland, you can Google it. It's a unicorn. Yes, you can check me on that. But in a world of information where we can know who's who and what's what and where's this, information is very different from godly biblical wisdom. Information isn't wisdom.

So people want to make the next steps and kind of move on with their life. And so they look up answers and data, but that's very different from the wisdom that God extends and provides from his word. The fountainhead of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. That's Proverbs 1. This is the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. That's Proverbs 1. This is the beginning of wisdom. And so we need to pray and ask God that he would give us an exalted view of himself and his word. And that would give us a sensitive palette to discerning anything

that we might go about that is in contradiction to his revealed will. But fundamentally, one of the ways that we move forward in discerning the will of God is by rooting our minds in the scripture. And I used to tell students, you know, you live in a world that says, you know, what does your gut tell you? But that's not biblically what we're called to do, because we're not supposed to do what our gut tells us. We're supposed to do what our mind tells us, because we've been given the mind of Christ. And when our minds are steeped in scripture, then we're going to be able to think and reason through things because yes, there is a level of feeling and desire in Psalm 37, but the desires of our heart are anchored back in the thinking that has been shaped and impressed by the truth of God's word and God's spirit working through his word. And so we need

to go to the fountainhead of wisdom, which would be word of god so i want to press on this for a second uh talk a little bit maybe about the role of the holy spirit in that so i hear you saying and correct me if i'm wrong but one i'm getting it's more of exposure to the word of god and it's less of a lightning strike of clarity and intellectual uh clarity i guess for lack of a better word i'm and intellectual clarity, I guess, for lack of a better word. I'm like, this is the will of God. This is what I'm going to be doing next. To your point, over the last two episodes, you've been building a case for examining

the word of God and exposing your heart to his promises, his character, so that you might see the world with his eyes. Then the Holy Spirit's role in that. Talk a little bit about kind of where the Holy Spirit shows role in that, talk a little bit about kind of where the Holy Spirit shows up in discerning the will of God. Well, the Holy Spirit, one of the chief functions of the Holy Spirit is to illuminate our hearts and minds to understand the scripture. The Holy Spirit also intercedes for us when we pray. So if we're going back to James, it says, if anyone lacks wisdom, let him ask of God who gives generously. So we're praying

through the power of the spirit. And our biggest problem in life is not unanswered prayer, but unoffered prayer, because it says we have not because we ask not. So we lack wisdom. So we ask of God. And then we ask him that his spirit would be able to take the truth of his word and impress that upon our hearts that we would be able to see reality through the spectacles of God, which would be his word and his spirit. I think also like there's a level of confidence that the spirit of God gives to people that are living in his will. You know, Paul says over and over again throughout the epistles, I say this with a clean conscience. He says that over and over again. I have a clean conscience. I say this in good conscience. You know, one of the gifts that God has given to his creatures is the conscience. And when your conscience is clean, like there's not other things you're paranoid about because

you're dabbling in sin. The spirit of God provides for you an ability to be able to say no to option B, C, and D, pick option A, and not wonder, hey, if this doesn't work out, it's because I was in sin and I wasn't thinking clearly. You know, Harry, my friend says, you evaluate decisions by how you make them or you measure decisions by how you make them. Meaning like, hey, if I was walking in the will of God when I made this decision, I i prayed about it the spirit didn't convict me over anything and that was the decision that the lord put in front of me to take this job and go to this place now if that doesn't work out for instance that doesn't mean that you were in disobedience and it wasn't the will of god it means that in the perfect will of God, He led you there and you're going through this difficulty

right now, if that makes sense. So everything we do is according to the will of God and we walk by the Spirit. And that just goes back to that revealed will is for our sanctification and we're sanctified as we walk by the Spirit. Yeah, it's one that's almost a hard pill to swallow in some regards of that you can make decisions earnestly pursuing the Lord and yet have them not work out.

And yet I feel like that's inherently obvious. If you walk with the Lord for any length of seasons in your life, you'll see markers where things don't work out the way you would maybe have expected them. And yet that's the human experience. It makes me think back to a pastor growing up used to say, how do you discern the will of God? He'd say, oh, that's easy. Trust God and do the next thing. I think to your point, you would maybe add, obey God, trust him and do the next thing. Yeah. And that's taken from an Elizabeth Elliot kind of, she wrote in Suffering is Not for Nothing. She quotes a poem, you know, called Do the Next Thing, where like, sometimes people are so crippled by

passivity because they don't know what the will of God is. They don't know where the Spirit is leading them, so they do nothing. One of the things that the Christian needs to understand is that passivity is, in many cases, a sin. And sometimes passivity wears the mask of waiting on the Lord. But waiting on the Lord isn't synonymous with idleness. And that's important. Esther waited on the Lord, but she said, I'll fast, I'll go before the King, I'll make moves, I'll take risks all while I wait and depend on the Lord. Oftentimes I think decisions are hard. The door to walk through isn't always the one that's open. Sometimes the door to walk through is the one that needs to be pushed open.

And so I think that sometimes there's a passivity. There's kind of a crippling effect there. But yeah, we just need to kind of move forward with like a degree of confidence. God knows the end from the beginning, but he doesn't allow us to see the end from the beginning because that would eliminate faith. I think it's Kevin DeYoung who says that we can stop pleading with God to show us the future and just start living and obeying like we're confident that he does. And that's what the spirit of God does in our life. So going back to your question, what does the spirit of God do in this decision-making?

He gives us confidence and assurance that he holds the future. And we know that his spirit through his word, it says in Psalm 119, leads us step by step. It's a lamp into our feet, not the stadium lighting to our distant path. And that's part of the way God's spirit works is he's not leading you to next year right now. He's leading you to live right now. Seek first the kingdom of God today. And all of these other things 10 years from now will be added unto you. So just recounting, making sure I'm tracking with you, there's an element of you're exposing yourself to the word of God continuously, devotedly, consistently. You're praying, and you're praying, reminding yourself of the promises of God. And to your point, I almost, I wanted to go back in our last episode and clarify this. It's not a prayer,

you're not saying you have to say the right words to kind of conjure up. Again, that's directionally false. It's rather, it's reminding our hearts of the God we serve. And then third, your point would be make a decision, like get out of the harbor, start sailing, start moving, and God's going to direct that path. Is that accurate? Yeah, I think that's great. You know, I used to talk to people a lot for wisdom. You know, when I was in college, I was trying to

figure out what's next. And, you know, even today I look for wisdom from different people all the time. The wisest people I know never tell me explicitly what to do, right? Because they're always trying to ask probing questions by which they help you arrive at a certain conclusion. Even, you know, I talked to somebody last week that was, and you can use this even as we kind of transition on, that's debating between ministry and business, you know, and what they want to do. And they were torn. Do I want to be a pastor?

Do I want to go into business? And I asked him, hey, what sounds fun? And what would you like to do? I really think I'd enjoy business. I'm like, well, I don't think you're called to ministry then if that's what you're trying to do. And even that word calling is, I think, pretty ambiguous. Like people are waiting on their calling.

It's like big conference theme. What's your calling? You know, I think one of the things that's helpful for me, you know, because I, you know, for years, you know, for years and I called the ministry and I called the ministry, I'd heard, you know, if you could ever do anything else other than ministry, go do that thing and don't go into ministry. And I understand what that's saying, but I could do something else, right? Like I enjoy business. I could. We'd be left with only pastors of last resort.

And I understand that's taken from Paul saying like, woe is me if I don't preach the gospel. There's a level of divine urgency. And gravity. And gravity and responsibility. And I would say that calling has grown over the years. But it's not like at 24, I went, I'm going to lose my mind. You know, like I can't do this anymore.

I like being in business. I felt like I had an exposure to the lost. I feel like I was around unbelievers and where else am I going to work with a Mormon, a Muslim and a homosexual and be able to engage them in the truth. And so I was like, man, I feel like this is a good thing, but I think kind of working and serving your brains out simultaneously until the Lord brings you to a critical mass where you're going to have to make a decision and I'm going to have to make a jump here is really important. So I would just say, though, in the realm of calling, I once was doing this thing with pastors in Asia and I looked around and there was 80 or so pastors in a room and they love the Lord, they're living gnarly lives. You know, not one of

them woke up and said, God's, you know, like God's will for my life is that I become a pastor. They were all saved and house, you know, house churches, they saw the need and they had a mentality. If I don't, who else will? Now, some of those guys are more gifted than others, but if the lost world was waiting for guys to have these clear cut, like, man, there's nothing else I want to do. And it also provides this secular sacred divide. You can glorify God just as much by being a kindergarten teacher as you can by being a conference preacher. And I think people lose sight of that. So they're like, man, if I'm not in ministry, then I'm gonna be doing something

that doesn't matter to the kingdom of God. Now, all of work is before the eyes of God and for his glory. And it doesn't matter whether you're washing dishes or you're Billy Graham. You know, that's William Tyndale, you know? And so I think understanding those things is important. And then being able to just kind of think about it from the perspective of the fact that sometimes

we place too great of an emphasis on our calling that we don't, as you said, do the next thing. You know, I studied accounting. I worked in finance. Then I started working in startups. Then I had an opportunity. Then you were a camp counselor. Yeah. Then I started preaching in Juvie Hall. And the Lord changed my burdens. And I began to go, man, there's just a tug at my heart for students.

Then I worked at, and then this opportunity opened up in other places. So I just think sometimes people get so crippled by their calling that they do need to do the next thing. So as we wrap up on this point, I would just one commend you have a brief series on work, I think, that you've published previously. I mean, those were instrumental in my own life. I've sent those to countless friends, acquaintances working through either career transition or graduating school and considering what their next step would look like. So one, I'd call that out specifically but maybe beyond calling inner interpersonal marriage what might you say to that yeah i would just say about marriage and this is maybe worthy of a different episode you know especially in regards to dating so let's say you're trying to figure out

who to date is this person the will of god there's a couple key questions that i would ask first of all are they godly do they love the lord Jesus? I'm not asking if they're a Christian in the sense where 64% of America claims to be a Christian. I'm asking if there is an evident love and imitation of the person of Jesus Christ. Now, if you have that in place, then I would ask you, if you're a girl evaluating a guy, are they a hard worker? Are they a hard worker? Do not marry a guy that is not a hard worker. That's fundamental. He who does not work does not eat. And you don't want to marry a guy that's not going to provide for your family, not just because you want to have a lot, but because that guy is living in disobedience to the God-given command that he has to be a steward

of work and to do that as unto the Lord. And not necessarily because you can't work or not saying that the lady might not have a tremendous work ethic, but it's a rejection of characteristic is your point. Well, yeah. And, and biblically from a male and female responsibility. Yeah. A woman's job is hard and she may work and she may have a job you know my wife works part-time but if you can have a wife that is not a very hard worker and the family will survive if the husband is a hard-working man but if you have a husband who is not a hard worker that family is crippled it's crippled And obviously you can go to

ungodly extremes where you become a workaholic. But I would consider that. Then I would say, is there actual chemistry in regards to dating? You don't want to marry someone that you can barely endure. Marriage is not a dry partnership. So I would make sure you enjoy them, that there's a level of real chemistry. You know, people used to say, hey, you know, what I want to do is I want to get all the single Christian guys and all the single girls on one side. I'm just going to line them up and just start, you know, let's get them hitched. You know, what's the problem? If you're all Christians and you all want the same thing, then let's just start marrying people off. I would say that that would be not something I

would want to sign up for because for you to enjoy marriage, there is a real element of chemistry. And obviously what draws you most to that individual is her character or his character and his love for the Lord, but you should be attracted to them. There should be, that's not to say that you need to go find a supermodel. It is to say that there should be a level of attraction and a draw towards her character. Then I would say, are they teachable? Do they love to learn from other people? Or is it like pulling teeth to try to get them to listen? Are there, if this is a girl, if I'm, you know, when I tell my daughter, when she's older, I would ask, hey,

who are the guys in his life that pour into him? And who are the guys that can tell him something from a reproving perspective, a rebuking perspective, a correcting perspective, and he listens to them. And he, you know, he can be silenced by a word from that guy and encouraged. Then I would also say, are they a servant? Do they love to serve people? Marriage, you're married, I'm married. I am so glad I married someone that loves to serve other people. A lot of people marry people that love to serve themselves

and date people that are all about themselves. And I would just say, hey, if you're a girl dating a guy, a guy dating a girl, one of the main questions I would ask and consider, is this a person that already is in an active pattern of serving other people? You date to evaluate these things, but you don't marry potential. You don't marry what someone could be. You marry who they currently are. So are they godly? Do they love the Lord Jesus? Do they work hard? Are they teachable? Are they a servant? And then if they are, then if you're a dude, saddle up, go ask her out, be a man, and just do it. You don't have to wait till you know that she likes you to kind of make that move it circles back to your passivity point don't be passive you know go out there and uh lord

willing shoot your shot man yeah shoot those shots it's coming from two people who succeeded so the barrier is not that high well yeah i mean we both uh we both benefit from women who hit all four of those characteristics yeah we're deeply grateful deeply gratefully grateful. And I think, yeah, and so obviously there's other things to evaluate in discerning the will of God. Marriage, other than your commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ, is the most determining element of the trajectory of your life, your family, your children, and really even what I do. Obviously, I'm in ministry, you're in business, but we could both say that so much of what we do in our day-to-day lives is a product of being able to have wives that love the Lord and work hard and are both partners, but are our best friends. So if you want to know what

the will of God is, I think just to condense it all together and we can wrap it up here, you need to be active in the word of God. You need to be walking by the spirit. You can't walk by the spirit. If you're not rooted in the word of God, you need to be asking and pleading for God to transform you into the image of Jesus Christ. You need to be pure. You need to be grateful. Going back to our last episode, you need to have joy in the midst of suffering. Then you need to consider a few different things. You're gifting. How has God wired you? The needs around you, the desires of your heart.

Then you walk in the wisdom of God's word, asking him if anyone lacks wisdom, let him ask of God. But then also in abundance of counselors, there's much wisdom. And then you do what you want, right? And if you don't want, if you don't know what you want to do, do something, do something, do something. A hundred percent. And if I could just add, I think the last piece to this is one of the trademarks, I

think, of your ministry to our church and dial in more broadly has been the joy of which the Christian life brings. And so it's not this begrudging march of, okay, you know, the Lord, I'm asking him, what am I going to do tomorrow? And I'm kind of muddling through thing after thing, but rather there is joy, freedom in obedience. Walking with a clean conscience is underrated in today's society and walking in obedience brings a joy that the world can't counterfeit or offer. Anything you'd add to that?

Well, yeah, I just think that's why, regardless of what you're doing, that's why it says in Colossians 3 that we do everything as unto the Lord and Ecclesiastes the same thing. We're to work heartily as unto the Lord. And so a lot of this I touch on in my series on work, but there is, there should be a smile. You know, it says in Psalm 34 that the faces of those who know God, you know, it's evident to the watching world. Yes, we walk through trial, we walk through tragedy, suffering, but Paul says we're sorrowful yet always rejoicing. And so even when we're kind of waiting on the Lord and we're unsure of what's going to happen when you're pacing through the hospital, trying to figure out what procedure for your kid who's

sick or whatever it may be, and you're trying to ask the Lord for wisdom and guidance, there is a level where if all of these things are in place, we can have a joy, even in the midst of sorrow and uncertainty, while we wait, and we can then proceed and, as Elizabeth Elliot says, do the next thing awesome well that's supremely helpful and practical thank you for walking through that format thank you for saying the word supremely I had to sneak it in there by the end no thank you brother absolutely always good to be together