Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - How Do I Navigate The Cultural Moment | Dr. Erwin Lutzer and Jonny Ardavanis

Episode Date: November 4, 2024

In this powerful discussion, Pastor Erwin Lutzer addresses the critical question many Christians face: How should believers approach voting when both candidates are flawed? He breaks down the relationship between faith and politics, explaining why Christians shouldn't withdraw from civic engagement.Key topics covered:- The biblical perspective on choosing between imperfect candidates- Understanding Christian nationalism vs. biblical citizenship- How to balance spiritual conviction with political responsibility- The church's role in modern political discourse- Why the "lesser of two evils" voting approach can be biblically soundPastor Lutzer shares insights from his book "Hitler's Cross" and discusses the dangers of both political overengagement and dangerous pietism. Learn why voting isn't just a right—it's a Christian responsibility.Subscribe to stay up to date with each episode! Watch VideosVisit the Website Buy Consider the LiliesFollow on Instagram

In a fallen world, we take the situation as it exists and we ask ourselves which of the two candidates would be the better one, not perfect one for sure. And at the same time, we recognize, and then we vote, and then at the same time, we recognize something that I know that you deeply believe, Johnny. We have problems in this nation morally and spiritually that it doesn't matter who gets elected. What we need is the preaching of the gospel, the healing of our communities that are so broken with sin, and that is the thing that the church is called to do. Well, Pastor Lutzer, thanks again for sitting down. I'm a Christian, I'm a husband, I'm a father, and I'm a pastor. And I'm trying to figure out, biblically speaking, how to navigate the cultural moment.

Even that term, cultural moment, has become so cliche. But what I mean by that is we live in a world that's progressing towards socialism, the sexualization of our children, the annihilation of kids in the womb. We're trying to navigate what's the church's role now. We know we're to be a pillar and buttress of the truth. We want to declare the unique Savior that is Jesus Christ. As Christians, we want to be able to declare the gospel to people that are unsaved so that they might be rescued, is what you mentioned in our previous segment. But now I want to get practical. We have an election.

It's coming in a matter of weeks. We got two options, both broken people. I would make the argument that one is a greater evil, right? When you have the leftist agenda that is, its calling card is aborting babies. We want to drag queens in every preschool in America, use the different pronouns, abolish the police, defund the police. We don't need rule or law anymore because the whole system is because people are oppressed. That's the only reason there's any violence. My question, can people vote for the lesser of two evils, and should they? It's very understandable that there'd be a conflict between Christianity and politics because politics is based on oppositional issues. As Christians, we're supposed to keep the unity of the Spirit in

the bond of peace. Now, what I want to do is to delineate five different relationships between the cross and the flag. Because if somebody says, are you a Christian nationalist? It depends on what you mean. So, I am going to answer your question, but I'm going to take a larger view first. The simple fact is the first way to configure it is where you have the flag above the cross. That's Nazi Germany, where suddenly what you discover is commitment to the flag much more important than commitment to the cross. In fact, the gospel was totally lost because it was really politics that was preached in the pulpit. And so what you have is the cross of Christ was lost. And of course, Bonhoeffer was concerned

about that and warned the church about what was happening. There's another way, and that is for us to see people who I, and I'm making this up for a point, where we could say that they have the cross but no flag. Now I'm talking about the pietists who simply said, oh, we're not getting involved in any of the controlling realities of the culture. We're content with our Bible studies and so forth. Let's get into our little corner, sing our songs, have our Bible studies, and when the train rumbles by with Jews on the way to Auschwitz, we just sing more loudly. Then what you have is also, of course, the cross against the flag. That's when we disobey the state.

And while I'm on that, let me say very clearly that there are times when we have to disobey the state. If you believe that you always have to obey the state, you have put the state in the place of God. If there is no law above the Supreme Court of the United States, the Supreme Court is God. If there's no law above you and you're your own lawgiver, you are God. So all that to say that it is so important. There are those who believe in the cross, but also they so identify with the flag, with a political agenda, that there's confusion. And I think that no matter how we speak about January 6th, we saw that when people went into the Capitol with crosses and so forth. so much confusion that nowadays, if you stand and you are willing to honor the flag, to salute the flag, you might be a Christian nationalist. Now, all that for an introduction.

What my belief is, what we have to do is to put the cross above the flag. Now, I want to speak to this directly. There's a friend of mine who gave a lecture on Christian nationalism, and I agreed with much of what he said, but then he said this, the great hope for the world is Christ, it's not America. Well, of course, who's going to argue with that? But there is no nation on this planet that has done as much as America has to send thousands of missionaries around the world and fund them to tell the different people that their great hope is Jesus Christ. It is important that America survive. Now, here's my view. I've never endorsed a political candidate or a political party, but

think of all of the issues which are thoroughly biblical, which are thoroughly biblical, but are deemed political today. In a previous segment, we talked about the responsibilities of parents to raise their children and to have control of their children's education. Is that political today? You'd better believe it's political. In one of our news, television news outlets, a woman said this, Christian nationalists believe that their rights come from God and not from the state. Johnny, if that's a Christian nationalist, I guess I am one.

The whole point of Hitler's Germany and communism is the only rights that they had came from the state. You didn't even have a right to criticize the state unless the state gave you that right. I could expound on this because I'd like to talk about the Nuremberg trials, but we have to hurry. Now, here's the point. There's a whole list of things like this, abortion and so forth. Now, my point is this, how do we vote? And finally, I think I am answering your question. We look at the two flawed candidates, and then we ask, what is their platforms? And then we make the best decision we can in this fallen world to choose the one that we think best represents our values and our biblical position. We are not beholden to the Democrats or to the Republicans.

We don't kiss the donkey. We don't kiss the elephant, but we do kiss the sun, as it says in the second chapter of the book of Psalms. And so, what we have to do is to ask ourselves, we're here. We didn't choose the candidates that we have, but to your point, choose the lesser of two evils? Absolutely. You know, I have friends who say, oh, I don't like either candidate. I'm not going to vote. Voting is such an important part of citizenship that we should vote. And you know, there's another issue that is very biblical, but is being overlooked today, and that has to do with immigration. We're told today that we have open borders because, after all, we want to be compassionate. Johnny, it's not the role of the state to be compassionate.

The symbol of the state is the sword. The state is to keep order. It's to punish evildoers and to protect those who do good. That's the responsibility of the state. It is the responsibility of the church to be compassionate. That's why even though I am totally opposed to open borders, as a matter of fact, I heard a young pastor say yesterday that God was in favor of walls, and he was talking about Nehemiah building the wall, and God is very much in

favor of borders, let me say. It was Marx who wanted a borderless world. That's another story, and that's where we might be headed. But the point is this, that even though I'm totally opposed to open borders, once the migrants are here, I do support organizations that attempt to help them because that's our role. But this idea that we should have open borders because it's compassionate, the people who advocate that certainly don't feel any of the effects of open borders, and they live in gated communities. And if somebody came over the wall, they'd expect that person to be arrested.

They don't live with their front door open just in case some needy people came by. No. So all that to say that that also, I believe, is a biblical issue. Of course, legal immigration, we're in favor of that, but open borders with all of the damage that is being done is really wrong. And there are those out there who say, oh, we have to follow the Sermon on the Mount. Really? Should the state forgive 70 times 7? Is that what we want the state to do? Now, I got on a bit of a soapbox there, but what I want to say is this. In a fallen world, we of the two candidates would be the better one, not perfect one for sure.

And at the same time, we recognize, and then we vote. And then at the same time, we recognize something that I know that you deeply believe, Johnny. And that is this. We have problems in this nation morally and spiritually that it doesn't matter who gets elected. What we need is the preaching of the gospel, the healing of our communities that are so broken with sin, and that is the thing that the church is called to do. So, did I answer your question? Yeah, I think, you know, for me, I understand you mentioned that, you know, you have the

pietists that are singing loudly as the train with Jews are headed to Auschwitz. It's kind of like that we stick our head in the sand. And I think there's maybe churches in that side of things that just say, hey, let go, let God, we're going to trust in the Lord. You know, we're citizens of heaven either way. That's Philippians 3. And they do nothing about this responsibility that you mentioned. It's a responsibility and it's a privilege to be able to vote.

And there's a responsibility to be able to vote for the candidate that best stems the tide of evil. I think the other side of things is from a nationalistic perspective, even when you said it depends on your definition, I think that's really appropriate because sometimes people ask me if I'm a Christian nationalist and I say, hey, it depends on what you mean. If you mean I want what's best for America, well, absolutely. And even you mentioned it in one of your books, America gives $400 billion to charity every single year. That doesn't happen in a socialist

world. That happens only where there's capitalism and people work and there's generosity. And part of that generosity enables the church in America to be able to send missionaries all over the world. And I want that. So my hope isn't in America, but that doesn't mean I'm a pacifist. And so I've been trying to figure out that even for myself and for the church that I'm entrusted to shepherd. And so I think what you answered in regards to,

hey, can I vote for the lesser two evils? And I would argue the left is far more, far, far, far, far more evil. Because even if you have a wicked man on the one hand, the aggression on the other side is so hell-bent on destroying the family. That's right. That I think it's as simple as you said, can I vote for the lesser two evils? Your answer was absolutely. Yes. as simple as you said, can I vote for the lesser of two evils? Your answer was absolutely. And I think that is freeing for people that have been told sometimes from Christian organizations and Christian churches that you can't vote for a candidate that doesn't possess the moral qualities

of Jesus Christ. And I say, hey, there's two broken candidates. You're not voting for a pastor, you're voting for a guy that we have two options, and we've got to pick the best one. And I mean, their personal lives are important, of course. But if you compare the two, the simple fact is ultimately it comes down to which agenda and which platform is more in keeping with our beliefs. So that's what it's come down to. And I want to speak to another issue that you hinted at, and that is this, well, we just leave it up to God. After all, he's the one who sets down rulers and puts up another.

But there's also this need for synergy and for understanding the relationship of human responsibility and God ultimately being in control. So for us to simply say, well, it's all in God's hands. All right. For those out there who are saying this, I have an idea that just comes to mind. Does God know the exact day that you're going to die? Does he know where your funeral is going to be? Yes. You know what that means? I can jump off the tallest building that there is in Nashville or Chicago, and I'm not going to die before God knows that I'm going to die. Nonsense. The way God enables us to live at a certain time is to give us enough brains that jumping

off a building is a very bad idea. So we must recognize that this is true in Scripture. Obviously, God reigns. Obviously, God is sovereign over the nations. All the nations are like a drop in a bucket. God laughs at the wicked, Psalm 2. But at the same time, there is human responsibility. And the Bible even says, you know, we should pray for those who have the rule over us and so forth.

And we should do that. Why? That we might have peaceable lives. I would say this, that sometimes God also gives a nation a leader that the nation deserves. Sometimes a leader that is worse than the nation deserves. I don't think that Germany deserved a Hitler, but anyway. But sometimes exactly what it deserves. So as we look at the moral and spiritual breakdown and the tremendous compromises in our culture, God may be pleased to give us a ruler

that only accelerates that and destroys everything that has been nailed down. But at the same time, we do what we can to bring about a situation in which we vote for the person that is the lesser of two evils, to use your illustration. And you know, somebody asked me at your church yesterday, why is it that so many Christians don't vote? I have no answer. I vote? I have no answer. I said, I have no idea. I mean, what a privilege.

Take that privilege, run with it, pray a lot, seek God, but take your citizenship seriously. By the way, speaking of citizenship, Jesus used the word three times. The word citizenship is a perfectly good word. And what we should do is, and while I'm on the subject, obviously only citizens of America should vote in our elections. That's obvious. Isn't that obvious? It is obvious. It is obvious. So have I answered your question? Yeah. And I think it's been, I think it's somehow people have been guilt-tripped into thinking that on the right you have a man with moral flaws. So they also haven't made the appropriate delineation between a choice and an endorsement.

Meaning, hey, I'm choosing the lesser two evils. That doesn't mean I think he would preach in my pulpit. It doesn't mean I want my son to grow up to be a man like him. It means that I'm punching a ticket against the left by punching a ticket for the right. Yeah. And that's the way I view it. Yes. And in terms of leaders, and I know this leads us a little bit afar, but if you're a pastor under Hitler, you would be derelict if you didn't criticize Hitler and his policies.

So I think there is a difference between endorsing a candidate and once the candidate is in power, pointing out what they are doing wrong, as Bonhoeffer did and as Niemöller did. And in one of my books on, it's entitled Hitler's Cross, where I show the role of the church and why the church bought into Hitler's agenda, Niemöller stood against Hitler and was tried for abuse of pulpit. Abuse of pulpit was like hate speech. It's like endorsing a candidate today and you get tried. I want to tell you a story about that. All right, Niemöller is in a prison cell

and he's going to be tried. He knows he's going to be found guilty. That's a foregone conclusion. A young German guard comes to get him. They're walking through this tunnel, and Niemöller is hearing a verse of scripture. It seems as if it's being bounced off the walls. It was this young German guard saying to Niemöller, the name of the Lord is a strong tower. Whoever runs into it will be safe. Niemöller said, that young guard has no idea of how he blessed me with that. I never saw him again, except at a distance. Here's the challenge I want to leave with people. That young German guard obviously grew up in a Christian church.

He knew the scriptures. How did he get sucked into the Nazi agenda? Maybe sometime, Johnny, I'll be back and we'll talk about that. I look forward to it. Thank you for your input, your pastoral perspective, the work you've put into writing these three resources that I highly recommend, the latest of which is The Eclipse of God. I read it yesterday and this morning. Thank you. Forward by Al Mohler. And appreciate your time, Pastor Lutzer, and your ministry and your faithfulness. Thank you.

Thank you. All right. God bless.