Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - "Is 'Crunchy' Christianity Biblical? Seed Oils, Stewardship & Fear-Based Eating | Greg Gifford"

Episode Date: March 10, 2026

Is obsessing over seed oils, beef tallow, sourdough, and toxin-free living actually biblical stewardship — or is it something else?Biblical counselor and professor Greg Gifford joins the podcast to tackle the growing "crunchy" movement inside the church. We define what extreme crunchiness looks like, why it's spreading among Christians (especially post-COVID), and how fear-based eating can quietly become legalism.In this episode we cover: • What "crunchy" and "extreme crunchy" actually means • Why stewardship gets misused to justify health anxiety • The danger of Christian Gnosticism in wellness culture • Romans 14, Christian liberty, and food freedom • How the sovereignty of God sets us free from fear-based eating • Practical wisdom for navigating this in Bible studies, friendships, and parentingWhether you're crunchy, anti-crunchy, or somewhere in the middle — this conversation will help you think biblically about food, health, and honoring God with your body.This episode is brought to you by our ministry partner Accountable2You. Join thousands living in freedom with nothing to hide, and visit https://accountable2you.com/dialin. Use our unique code DIALIN to get 25% off your first year of an Accountable2You Personal or Family PlanSubscribe for more biblical counseling and Christian living content.

Give me a definition of terms between you talk about crunchiness and extreme crunchiness. We're talking about something like a focus on healthy living that includes food, avoiding certain chemicals, using drinks, home choices to promote perceived health. So that's one definition. That's a very slippery slope to get on to say, wait a minute, I'm using seed oils and detergents and plastic. And this is dishonoring to the Lord because I'm not stewarding my body well. Stewardship kind of becomes this word, like this idea, an entity where you can kind of use it and abuse it to kind of say, well, you're not being a good steward. Right. Food is a means of sustaining our body to serve the Lord.

Yeah. Not to live longer. What is good stewardship of your body, your home, your kids? How do you think through that in a prudent way, you know, going back to Proverbs? Because it helps us make decisions. So how do we move forward without feeling like, all right, we can't know all the answers. so let's just throw up our hands. Where's the Cheetos?

All right, Greg, for those who aren't familiar with you, tell them about what you do, your work in biblical counseling as a professor and so forth. Yep. Thanks for having me, first of all. My name is Greg Gifford. I teach here at the Masters University. I do teach biblical counseling.

That's kind of my passion and love. It's the emphasis I teach here at the school. I've been here since 2017 doing that. Oh, I also host Transformed and get to work with Todd Freel out in Atlanta doing a lot of biblical counseling resources, so that's been a blast. Did that desire to do biblical counseling come out of your military background? Honestly, I think I, what really resonated for me with it is I love the Bible, but then I love to help take the Bible and minister it to people, seriously.

And so even sometimes pastoral ministry, you're like event managing and things like that. And it's not always as disciple-oriented. Yeah. So I think that passion came, and then whenever I left the military, the thought was there's no one talking about PTSD. There's no guys like leading and helping with the Bible and PTSD. So that kind of like sent me on a trajectory that way. And then once I learned more, I was like, man, I love this. If I could do this for a living, I'd be glad to do that. Yeah, I'm really thankful for your ministry. And I'm thankful for the way that you apply the scripture to whatever we're navigating and talking about in Christian life or life in general. and I was texting you last night and before we were going to record

and I was asking you about some different topics that maybe you've resonated with people that you've been interacting with in the counseling realm and you hit me back with a topic that was made sense but was surprising to me and it is crunchiness. Right. And give me a definition of terms

between you talk about crunchiness and extreme crunchiness. Let's provide some definition. I have some other questions for you as we go. Totally. It's hard to get our arms around When I say crunchiness, a lot of our people are like, oh, yeah, like, they just kind of have, like, this implicit knowledge. We're talking about something like a focus on healthy living that includes food, avoiding certain chemicals, using drinks, home choices to promote perceived health.

So that's one definition. At a former student and listener to transform, say, maybe this would be helpful as well. Obstaining from perceived man-made threats to health, so holistic living, some of it's getting back to, unprocessed and ancestral living. Ancestral living. I've seen a lot of that. There's people that make fun of it on Instagram where it's like, it's a guy,

it's almost like a parody, like, you have to think back 10,000 years to when we were a caveman. And the most natural way to drink would be from a river. And he's like making fun, if you're upside down there, actually goes to your goal.

But the ancestral living, grounding, kind of walking barefoot in the grass for 10 minutes a day to connect you with Mother Nature. But there's like a biblical spin on it, you know, because this is how God made us. And a lot of these things have kind of, I would say like biblical threads where it's like,

well, God made people barefoot, Adam and Eve were barefoot in the garden, maybe shoes are what are killing us. Yeah. Yeah. And so think like there is biblical threads through a lot of it, but not like a strong biblical case for some of it. And that should always, for whoever's listening to this or watching this, they should start to say like, oh, like some of the strongest argument is stewardship. Yeah. Which is honestly a very nebulous category to use for nutrition. Yeah.

You mentioned something about like kind of even the way childbirth, you know, home birth, which nothing inherently wrong with home births. And you kind of navigate like, hey, one thing to have a personal preference, conviction, you know, desire. Right. But so talk to me a little bit more about, you've given some definition of terms, you know, holistic living, the sourdough mommy's. I refer to them and Katie makes sourdough at all. Trying, trying. It's delicious. But what contributed to your desire to start kind of thinking through how to approach this subject?

Sure. Yeah, sure. I try to listen. So on Transform, what I'll do is I'll say, hey, look, if you have ideas, just let me know. And if enough people say the same thing, then I try to do episodes on that. And someone wrote in about crunchiness. And I was like, oh, yeah, like, I have, that is a thing. And she was basically saying her women's Bible study is kind of being.

hijacked, home birthing, non-vax, environmentally safe cleaning products, sourdough, beef tallow, homeschooling, aromatherapy, grounding, earthing. And she just said, yeah, that like, this is exhausting. I believe I respond biblically, but do you have any biblical guidance? So I was like, oh, that's interesting. I've heard a lot about that, actually. So I posted something and just said, hey, has anyone thought about this? And sure enough, man, it was like, woof, all of the sudden, all these comments are coming in on Instagram of like, you know, yeah, Dr. G, here's what we like or here's what we don't like, here's what we do. And I was like, oh, this is a, this is a thing. This is like a conservative, right, political, conservative,

theologically conservative thing that we're all wrestling with. And that's really what got the conversation started in my mind. I don't, I mean, I try to follow like nutritional principles, but I don't consider myself crunchy in that way. So that started it. And once I began to see, oh, yeah, there's a lot of people curious about that. I did the research and then I tried to craft those two episodes to get at least a conversation going, I think. And so how do you, how would you encourage people to think through it? You know, I, you know, if you're on the digital landscape, it's like a big thing. And to me, and you mentioned this.

I mean, obviously, you mentioned, we talked about, we were just talking about working out, want to be healthy. Like, that's a good thing to be a steward of your body. But then you say, hey, well, stewardship kind of becomes this word, like this idea, an entity where you can kind of use it and abuse it to kind of say, well, you're not being a good steward. Right. So how do we think through all of these things?

And maybe what's, there's even some things that you mentioned in your episodes about some of the difficulty feeling trapped in a Bible study or, hey, you should not get an ultrasound because it's going to kill your baby type of thing like that. Right. That this actually could be harmful. And again, like I know people that do homebirth, beef tallow, the whole thing, we're just asking the question, how do we think about these realities biblically? Not that they're all wrong. Right. Yeah, right. Because it's almost easier to just be dismissive and just be like, yeah,

that's wrong. We're not even going to think critically about it, so that's wrong. I think you've got to start with some susceptibilities that we have. Anytime someone says love your neighbor, and that's the reason why they're proposing their ideology, I'm like, man, you could make love your neighbor and stewardship mean just about anything. And so when someone says like stewardship, it's like, okay, but you know, like what else besides stewardship is the real issue? Yeah. Hey, folks, when I was looking at various methods for digital transparency, one of the questions that I had was how much it would affect my internet speed

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So when I think of what's going into some of the crunchiness, I've found a couple of things I thought were interesting, that ladies were the ones to primarily email and comment in the videos. And a lot of the craze is among ladies. Does that mean that there aren't crunchy guys? No, I was even refreshing this morning on Paul Saladino. He's this medical doctor standing in front of him. Train Kobe.

Did he? Yeah, I think so. So he was in front of like Trader Joe's, just talking about how Trader Joe's is kind of fraudulent. And they package things as being healthy and they're not. So it's not a lady thing only, but it does seem to be predominantly ladies. It's those that have been hurt by the medical establishment. And they didn't get answers. Or maybe they actually got wrong answers.

They were minimized, not listened to. And think of this, like we're post-COVosci, Fauci, whatever that was, fiasco. Healthy suspicion of like, hey, what I've been told isn't reality. That's right. That's right. So not to get overly philosophical, too, but now you have the death of the monoculture

where you don't get information through one source anymore. You get information through all these different sources. Yeah. So now you have people that are kind of being scattered in terms of where they go for help medically. Yeah. So that kind of sets the stage for these influencers starting to write, build platforms

based off of unverified medical suggestions. Yeah. So you had a bad experience. You kind of wondered about COVID and whatever that was, whatever your position was there. And then now you find someone online that's a social media influencer, and they're starting to suggest things that seem to make sense to you or they resonate with you.

But again, they're not medically verified. They're not proven. They haven't been tested. It's someone in their kitchen showing like why you should do this. The last is a common theme, which was the idea of fear-based eating or multiple people that wrote in said fear-mongering, that sometimes the extreme crunchiness gets into fear mongering, where if you do use this detergent, for instance,

you're going to hurt your kids. And if you use a plastic bottle, there are toxins in that. Sorry, Johnny. You days are numbered. I know. I was about to hide in that episode. It's too late, bro. I already saw it.

So then what happens is you actually can't enjoy a bottle and plastic without being fearful. So then that's susceptibility. Or feeling convicted, you know, like, I'm doing something the body God gave me. Totally. So that's a very slippery slope to get on to say, wait a minute, I'm using seed oils and detergents and plastic.

And this is dishonoring to the Lord because I'm not stewarding my body well. And I want people to be set free from that because before long, what is being couched is stewardship and care, dominion is now becoming legalism. And you have to live by these new man-made laws. in order to honor the Lord. So those are all the susceptibilities just to get it started.

So then how do you start to reframe it? That's the big issue. And for me, I think you have to reframe it in epistemology, starting with like how you know what you know. Who's the authority in your life? What's the authority? And for many people, their challenge is that they become the medical expert. So they've had a poor experience with the medical establishment.

They start to do independent research. Then they find this school of thought. online, maybe even social media, and then they start to kind of craft their own perspectives on what is medically good and medically bad. And we have to get at like, okay, what's the authority and who is the authority in your life? And for us as Christians, as soon as I frame it that way, I think most Christians would say absolutely the Bible too. Yeah. Okay, so then as you start to go through the Bible, what does the Bible say about diet? You know, what does the Bible equate your,

where do we see stewardship in the Bible equated to, nutrition. And that should be like just a fair thought to ask. Let's ask it in a very like blunt way. Can you be a good steward and eat a frozen pizza? You guys have those in your house? No, because Katie actually does make homemade pizza. Oh, getting worried that I'm, maybe I am crunchy. You're the mom walks in right now. It's like an intervention. I know. Let's go it up here. Where are the Cheetos? Yeah. Yeah, so just think like that's starving. Right? That was the only thing available.

That would be the last, that would be when I would eat a frozen pizza. Right. Desperation. But at that point, it's stewardship to keep you alive. Right. Yeah, right. So just think of stewardship. It's like, can you eat a frozen pizza to the glory of God and be a good steward?

Yes. Right. Right. I'm there with you. And it's like, well, okay. So stewardship doesn't always mean that I get the cleanest, that I get the most organic, the ancestral living, you know, farm to table type of lifestyle.

Stewardship means that I am stewarding the resources that God has given to me. So if you start to reframe that conversation, it's like you have to be very careful to say that this is biblical. God wants me to eat this way, not use these toxins, so forth, because the Bible doesn't say that. If you're going back to the Bible, ultimately, the Bible doesn't say that. You okay with that so far? Yeah, I'm great with that so far.

And I think it's true because it's a moving target, you know, perpetually. in the sense of like, hey, I thought it was healthy to do carnivore, did carnivore, but then I realized I was eating the wrong ground beef. And my ground beef isn't the right ground beef. And then I switch my ground beef. And then the only way to really do carnivore, the way that God intends is to kill a cow and for me to get a huge freezer. And so it's like, and it's one thing to say like, hey, that's the best meat.

It's going to taste the best. And it's probably the highest quality. I agree. I agree. But it's another thing to say you're actually being a bad steward of what you're putting in your body. And, you know, I think that's where it becomes, well, in that case, and I'm sinning, right? And I'm dishonoring the Lord, which I don't want to dishonor the Lord. And I think that's the whole conversation as like, going back to your term, of fear mongering, like, hey, personally, we didn't do the whole VAC schedule, right, for our kids.

Right. That was something we chose to do. But we did a couple, right? But I think the idea, but we don't go around telling people like, oh, so you don't love your kids. Yeah. Oh, you gave him a vaccine. Yeah, so I hurt them. Yeah, and I think that's where I think the line is that you're talking about,

but agree with what you're talking about with what you put in your body and so forth. So keep going. Yeah, okay. So if you build a case, then it's like, all right, we have this decentralizing and medical information. We have people on Instagram that have built a following based off of their homemade suggestions. And maybe they're true. Maybe they're not true. It doesn't matter.

Like if you have 3.1 million followers, we just, we think you know what you're talking about. or you have a level of trust. So then now we aren't totally clear even on how to interpret medical advice. And if you're starting with epistemology, one of the things that I said is like, you should probably get schooled up and how medical decisions are made.

And I'm not a medical doctor, and I don't try to, you know, disciple people in medicine or nutrition. As a biblical counselor, we're going to say actually go to someone who has been trained in this, so a nutritionist or medical doctor, and actually work with someone

who's advice, matches the idea of prescribed clinical or clinical practice guidelines. So a medical doctor is going to be regulated by clinical practice guidelines, things that have been tested and verified. So that's like, okay, it's like scoot that over to the side. It's like, yeah, go work with the nutritionist. Now from there, here are some of the pitfalls, and I'll get back to the absolute truth of God's word here in a second.

Be very careful not to fall into the trap of God. Gnosticism. And in these episodes, in the research, I found that there's like this higher knowledge where many of the extreme crunchy people are actually believing, this is not malice, but believing they have a corner on nutritional information that you don't know about. And that's why they feel such an impulse to tell you. And then that comes across in this Gnostic, higher knowledge, deeper knowledge type of understanding. So I don't think many of our like Christian brother and sisters are actually trying to be malicious. What they're trying to do is help and they think they know these things that maybe they really don't know. So it's like this either Gnostic or elite or they've studied. So they're

where and then what happens is people are judged because they don't know and they're not living according to that higher knowledge with an extreme crunchiness. Yeah. And that judgmentalism does start to come out and you know the person that wrote into transformed it was the idea of like a women's Bible study where we're not talking about redemption and salvation we're talking about sourdough chickens where you got your all-purpose cleaner from yeah it's like well that's a shift a little bit from the purpose of our Bible study to our nutritional guidelines that we should probably be talking to doctors and the FDA and medically trained experts so then the result can be that we judge people that don't live up to those standards how do you balance that with like the lack of

trust in the establishment because you mentioned that a lot of people go this way because of maybe the perceived suspicion and personally I'm suspicious if someone 30 years ago someone said go talk to a doctor or I'm a doctor trust me yeah that is different now like I would be a little bit more if someone said you need surgery I'd be like do I need surgery right so I have like I'm not saying I'll surgery I think we're all there to yeah so like how do you navigate that where and you mentioned this in your episodes like a verifiable medical reality is that insulin does something for people with diabetes right that's like a tested improved reality and you understand you glean that because multiple studies show this to be factual that's different than what is it like studies or guidelines or recommendations yeah so like on instagram people will be talking about those you know hey we've actually done some

research and we found this to be true right that's different than a medical verifiable reality But even when I say medical verifiable reality, now that term is convoluted and muddied by the lack of suspicion or the lack of trust and the establishment. So that's, I think, part of the reason why people are like, I have no one to trust about myself. Yep. Right? And I, this person online seems like we see the world the same way. And they share an experience that I had. Exactly.

Right. Like they also were told to give this to their kid and it ended up hurting their kid, you know. or whatever it may be. Right. Right. So then you don't trust this. Anybody. You don't trust the man.

Yeah. Which personally, I'm not there, but I'm kind of there. Yeah. I mean, I think many of us feel that way. Yeah. And there is the line of, okay, I don't trust them. How much more should I not trust someone that doesn't have medical training or someone that doesn't have any verifiable evidence that this is true?

Which makes it a never, like a never ending conversation. Right. Because you're always like, it's conversationally based. And it's like, man, to stay up to date on, to keep my kids alive. Right. Is it at your point exhausting. Yeah, right. And then if you're doing that out of fear.

Yeah. Or maybe you think you know and you're doing that out of judgmentalism and this like extreme crunchy nosticism. Yeah. Then it does start to actually tug at the body of Christ because we're not here for Bible study anymore. We're here to talk about why your kids are drinking Kool-Aid and eating fish sticks. Capricis.

I'm personally in Capricis. Oh, yeah. Come on. I was raised on fish sticks. So like Long John Silvers. It's like Poppleman the oven. It's like a step below a dino nugget if you're familiar with this. I know, I know dino nuggets.

I'm a believer. Yeah. So I think when you're talking about that narcissism and it's all the coming across elite or like you're a bad steward or you're not informed, you know, type of thing. And could become from like a spirit of pride, you know, as well. Like how do we, you know, how would you encourage people that would. say like I'm Uber, I'm, what do you call it, Uber crunchy or extreme crunchy? Like, how would you encourage someone like that?

And then you talked about going back to the scripture. You know, I'm so thankful that the Bible gives us everything we need pertaining to life and godliness. So it tells us even, gives us the principles to think through these things. Because it seems like this is just gonna become a larger conversation rather than a smaller one. Because you mentioned in your episode,

the guy that grabs a receipt with the shirt, because there's toxins in the paper that we're getting at Home Depot or whatever like that. Just like you're going to walk around paranoid about the light bulbs in your house, the shoes you're wearing, the soap you use, the we've been told we're using the wrong olive oil. And so it becomes like, oh my goodness. You know, it's very daunting. It's not just that I'm using a bad type of margin anymore. It's margin?

Marjorin. I don't know. Margin is like space on the, I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. We're back to butter. Kerry Gold, Costco. But it's just going to become a never, you know, a constantly moving target. Yeah.

So for some people, I think the first step is to say, hey, look, just be aware of what's going on. Yeah. And they don't mean ill by it. I think they actually are trying to honor the Lord and help their brothers and sisters in Christ. But it's like, hey, okay. So back to the authority of scripture. If the Bible does not give New Testament saints a nutritional plan to, follow then we are talking about Christian liberty yeah not a requirement so if I want to eat a

all mashed potato diet that is not a sin and I may not feel well but that doesn't mean that I'm in sin and there are many people who can't afford and should not try to afford shopping at whole foods exclusively they have other priorities so they're eating out at Taco bell I don't even know if whole foods is still healthy I don't know it's probably been out I'm not really trust anymore, Johnny. That's a real question. Farm. Farm only.

The chickens. Yeah. We'll just have chicken eggs for the rest of our life. Okay, keep going. So, yeah, a lot of people can't afford it. It's not even wise. Right. So then if we say this is a Christian liberty issue, then what does the Bible ultimately say?

Well, you can have your strong convictions and keep them to yourself. Have those expectations of yourself biblically. So let's think of the Romans 14 analogy. Yeah. Okay, meat or vegetables. You hold those, you're not trying to convince other people of your convictions biblically. If you're extremely crunchy,

I think you have the Christian liberty to do that, number one, and say, yeah, don't drink from plastic, drink from glass, no toxins in your home, for sure, do that. But put it in that Romans 14 category of, and yes, we are not going to try to impose our convictions onto your family. The trickier part is I do think you have to be careful with kids and are you imposing your conviction,

convictions as a dad or mom onto your children, and are they having to live by a strict set of your convictions for health and so forth? So that could perhaps be even another episode, but the first is to say, if the Bible doesn't say it, we're not going to be dogmatic. We're talking about convictions, and I'm going to respect and honor the convictions of someone that is not as crunchy as I am. And that is that you show up with a Taco Bell bag and a Baja blast. I'm like, man, that looks good. You know, like, there is no, like, turn. Kids, don't look. Look away. I feel a little convicted because I would think less of you if you showed up with a massive ball. We even work through that, dude.

Especially at, what is it, nine in the morning, you know? Yeah. Craig, get a grip. So that would be the first thought. I think the second thought is that we have to be able to say we're discerning but never fearful. Yeah. Some people are eating from a place of fear. And that is...

We're not eating. They are not eating or avoiding. And remember, God's given us all things. to enjoy. He is the giver of all good gifts, James 117, 1st Timothy 4.3, and food is something God's given us to enjoy. Yeah. So if I'm not careful, I take what was intended to be a blessing by the Lord, and I am now eating based off of fear. And there comes this balance where it's like, I'm a prisoner. Like, I'm a prisoner to these health principles that I've imposed on my own conscience here. So if you can't eat out of a sense of joy, I do think,

you're getting close to an extreme crunchiness that's unhelpful, maybe even getting legalistic. And I wonder, too, if there will be health problems because of such a strict diet that you're following. How do you reconcile that with, like, obvious lack of health? Like, let's take your example of Baja blast. Not a sin inherently. But let's say, you eat Taco Bell and Baja Blast every single day. Yep. And that's categorically, going back to your terms, it's probably medically proven to be bad for you.

So like, you don't want to go from one side to another and be like, all right, let's just pack on the LBs and disregard health. So like where's the, I don't even like the word balance, because sometimes it's like synonymous with compromise. Yeah, right. And you use the word discernment, Spurgeon says it's not the difference between right and wrong. It's right versus almost right.

Almost wrong. You know, and so I think through that because personally I want to be a good steward, but that term has been hijacked basically to mean a million different things. Stewart. So like what is good stewardship of your body, your home, your kids? How do you think through that in a prudent way, you know, going back to Proverbs? Because it helps us make decisions. So how do we move forward without feeling like, all right, we can't know all the answer.

so let's just throw up our hands. Where is the Cheetos? Yeah, let's use palm, you know, dish soap for our body wash, you know, type of thing. Yeah. Which would be weird. That came out. I regret it. I don't know.

Yeah, that's all right. I would use it either, whatever you're talking about right now. I don't know. Yeah, so think of the idea of stewardship is you're faithfully stewarding what's been entrusted to you. Yeah. And I think, like, at a baseline, we could say that is stewardship. Like, if you don't have it, you're not a steward of it.

So what has God given you, time, resources, money, and you're using that? So this is funny and embarrassing. In high school, I really got into bodybuilding, and it was like Arnold was my idol. Come on, dude. He had this big book, Encyclopedia, Bodybuilding, and it was like, if you're not eating chicken breast, you're a bad steward. If you're not eating 200 grams of protein a day, bad steward. And what began to take place is, seriously, like I would start to interpret other people. people's health perspectives as bad stewardship. But think of like, who's a worst steward? Someone that

moderately exercises throughout the week, they eat within their caloric range. They have no injuries. That person or a bodybuilder that's 200, 250, they have heart disease because of all this red meat that they keep eating. They have knee injuries and shoulder injuries. Who's a better steward of the body? The guy that walks a little bit, eats within his caloric range, or the guy, that's like pushing it to the limits. He's got heart, disease, knee, and shoulder issues. And I would actually argue the guy over here, not the extreme bodybuilder. For sure.

Why? Because he is practicing in moderation. And it's not exciting. Like moderation is not exciting because it's like, well, tell us what to do. And it's like, be moderate. Don't go all in on Baja blast, but have one, right? I don't know. All right, we're going to go get one.

I'll lock this door. I don't know. So think of moderation is really like your story. stewarding what God gave to you. And you know what? There's sometimes when you're traveling, when I travel, I eat the least healthy. Seriously, it's like, well, what's in the airport? All right. So you're doing your best to steward the resources given to you. And one of the best things to consider is like moderation, not one extreme or the other. So the extreme you brought up is like Taco Bell Baja Blast. But then the other extreme is like, I'm only eating chicken and rice.

And that's all I'll eat and I won't eat unless I can have chicken and rice. And if you don't you chicken and rice, you're compromised. Yeah, you're not stewarding. Yeah. So it's like maybe... You're being mastered by one thing on both spectrums. I wonder if it's more of our Western expectations of stewardship as well. Yeah.

Not a European expectation of stewardship. Like we've Americanized what we think a good steward should look like. Yeah. It's muscular, physically fit. It's that you're eating a certain type of food. You don't have a Coca-Cola. You have a hydroflask. So it's like there is a way that we've kind of transatlash.

that we've kind of transposed these cultural expectations onto what biblical stewardship looks like. But I would, again, back to biblical authority. If the Bible doesn't claim that, you cannot make that a clear case of stewardship or you're being a poor steward. If you had one Baja blast or if you had one chocolate chip cookie,

I think you can eat a chocolate chip cookie to the glory of God, and you can eat a frozen pizza to the glory of God. And even if you don't feel well, you made the best decision you could. You're in the airport, and it's like, well, I don't feel awesome. but yet I wouldn't say that I've sinned against the Lord in this.

And some people really do have to be set free from that. It's like you're living in this extreme, crunchy worldview that you've imposed on yourself. And I don't even think the Lord has imposed that strict of eating and lifestyle choices on you. Yeah, you know, it's funny. You mentioned kind of Psalm 139 all of my days. I've been written in your book before one of them came to be. So, like, we're not elongating life by the way we live, right? like all of our days are in the hand of God.

Then there's this other reality where we don't want to conflate the sovereignty of God by negating human responsibility for being a good steward. But then sometimes we can elevate that human stewardship to such a degree that we become essentially the sovereign of our life. And if I start eating this way,

then I'll never get cancer. And the reason why everyone's getting cancer is because of this. And that's James. Come now, you say. You know, like, you don't, you're not in control of your life. And you touch on this night,

want you to kind of just a double click on this is a lot of this can end up being a control thing where you harness all of the variables in your life by your house, your diet, all of those different factors. And it could be, it could reveal a lack of trust in the Lord. And I always want to, you talk about moderation because I always feel the need to kind of ping pong between, hey, listen, I'm personally, we eat pretty healthy. You know, I don't, I tell Katie, I texted her last night. I don't want to eat any simple carbohydrates this month. I'll do sweet potato. She's like, bad.

But like I want to be, I like being healthy. Right. I don't think if you have a French fried that you're sinning. That's the balance. Yeah. What you're doing is like, yeah, Johnny, that's the way it should be. Yeah. Because you can say, yeah, I like the way sweet potato fries taste and that's what I'm going to eat.

And it's like, and I like the way animal style fries taste and that's what I'm going to eat. You know, so when we have that, you have a spiritual maturity to be able to say, I like this, I enjoy this, but this, I do not transpose this on someone else. And that isn't, like, that's a really important corner to turn in this. So for all of the, like, moms or men that feel trapped on not knowing how to talk about what they read about to now, because you're like, hey, don't impose this. But I would say this is probably like a significant component of the algorithm.

for a lot of people. Yeah, right? So it's like you talk about what you consume. No doubt. You digest what you ingest. And so now I just picture people going like, well, okay, I don't want to impose, but like, I really do think that soap is bad for them. You know, so like, how do you go?

I'm hurting my, I don't love my neighbor now because I didn't tell them about the answer. We have nothing to talk about. Yes. How do you navigate that? Because like, you know, personally, like my, you know, we have someone in her life that would tell us something like, hey, and sometimes it's really helpful. And it's like, hey, and I look into it. I'm like, that seems legit.

And it's comparatively price-wise to switch it out to this thing. Right. I'm glad they told me. Yeah, good. So I don't want to cripple someone to be like, this is something you consume in private. Don't ever talk about it. But we also don't want you to be like,

you're a bad mom if you buy store-bought bread. So in the moderation in between is, hey, if you do speak about it, maybe asking the question, if you do talk about it, do it with a, hey, here's kind of where I'm at. I'm not sure where you're at, you know, to eat their own type of thing. Yeah, like I live a very high protein-based diet.

So if I walked up to you eating a bowl of spaghetti, and I was like, Johnny, like, there's 10 grams of protein in that. Don't you know what protein does? It makes your bone stronger. And once you build muscle, you'd be like, Greg, chill, dude, back off. Yeah. Okay, so zoom out for a second. I do think people should feel free to talk about interests and passion

And in the body of Christ, we do care. Yeah, for sure. We care. And whenever someone's like, hey, like, what do you eat or how do you eat or? Like, do you work out? How does that look for you? It's like, yeah, I'll talk about those like a hobby. Yeah.

And share those details that I've learned like a hobby. But, you know, I'll be 40 this year. I'm not trying to run a marathon. I'm trying to win anything. You know, it's just like, I'm just sharing kind of like a personal hobby. Yeah. And I think if we can find a gracious way of actually taking interest in the way that a person may be crunches. or extremely crunchy.

For us asking those questions, I think, is actually very kind and gracious. It's like, we want to know like, oh, I see you like made your own soap, bread, whatever it is. How'd you do that? Candles. Yeah, is that enjoyable? We want to support you in that. And then I think if you're sharing those principles, it's the same thing. Like just treat it like you would a hobby.

Like I'm not trying to convince you you have to live this with me. I made a cool soap thing and you guys should try it. It's fun. Tell me if you like it. But if you use the Irish spring dish soap or bar soap, like it doesn't bother me. Honestly, I just want to do my best to be a friend who's gracious and kind and open about some of my hobbies. I think that's one way to think about it. And there's never a way of like saying if you continue to do that, you're hurting yourself or hurting your family.

Yeah. It is funny because I feel like the conversation could hypothetically never end because there's like also an element where I'm sure there are things in our life that are like not good for us. we don't know about. Right. And so there's like the other, the last kind of remaining element is, well, I'm not trying to say they're doing a bad job, but I care about them. And I'm worried that if all of their kids drink is Baja Blast, that I want them to know because I love them.

Yeah, good. That's my niece or nephew. Yeah, good. And it's not because I'm more spiritual or elite than them. That's where I think you mentioned the idea of control, which came up a lot. So think of when we're fearful, oftentimes we're worshiping control. So then what's the antidote to fear-based eating? It is the sovereignty of God.

And we do know the Lord is the one that sustains our health. And we do know that there are some people that never ate healthy their whole life and live to be 92 just fine, like no significant issues. So just think like when we trust the Lord and we're doing our best to be a good steward, I have to put my trust in the Lord. When I really do care for people, you know, my nephew's just going to town Baja Blas, so to speak, I have to be able to say, okay, well, I'm going to maybe give a thought or give an alternative while they're at my house, but if that's the choice they're going to make,

then that's between them and the Lord, and then I trust the Lord on that. Seriously, like the sovereignty of God removes fear-based eating, and the sovereignty of God sets us free. So, I mean, if we tease out our theology in this area, it's like, well, technically I could eat Taco Bell and God could preserve me of all diseases. Taco Bell is going to totally sue you for this, Sorry. Well, I love like a chicken gordita crunch. Oh, come on. All right, yeah.

What do I love? I haven't had Taco. Supreme. I don't know if I've had Taco Bell in 10 years because it was a staple. It was the top of the bottom of the food pyramid when I was growing up. Yeah, so I just think like the sovereignty of God, man. I really do think we have to get back to that where we say, I'm called to be a steward. I trust the Lord ultimately is the one to make me healthy.

And I'm never, ever fearful when I'm eating. Yeah, I think there is just this. it's always the need to check our own heart because there's this element where like hypothetically, you know, I saw my sister doing something. I would be like, hey, I don't know if that's good for you.

Like, I would consider that. But it's not because I think I'm better than them. Not because I'm legalistic. If they don't do that, then I can't be, well, they're not honoring the Lord. Yes, exactly. So you can give a perspective too without feeling like if they don't

follow through with your perspective, that the relationship's over, we have nothing in common anymore. And I think that's even the, type of thing where it's like, hey, not all these conversations are bad. I'm thankful when someone tells me to like, oh, if you switch over to this ground beef, it's 30 cents more, but it's whatever. Not much better for you.

Yeah, okay, great. You know, but if that person told me that and then I still didn't, if I disregarded what they told me or just say, hey, no, thanks, I like the ground beef. And then they're like, what's wrong with you? That's where you're crossing a line. And so it is, I don't want to use the word delicate, but it is where you need the spirit of God to help you be confident in the sovereignty of God, right? like, hey, all my days are numbered.

I'm not in control of all the variables in my life or of my home, meaning like a tree could fall in your house. Right. And so I think that's all really helpful. And it's so funny, you know, I think just in like how conversations evolve over time. Like this was a conversation five, ten years ago. But now it's very prominent, I think especially in light of what you call the Fauci fiasco. Right.

Any other just final words to someone that may be discouraged, kind of feels trapped in this like it's a hamster wheel that never ends because they're just they're on this treadmill yeah any a lot of people did right in and they were like they were on the other side of that discouragement because it felt like the walls were closing in on them yeah couldn't eat this this was in plastic this detergent had this so what i learned through a lot of that is that people find freedom when they're able to say moderation stewardship not hypochondriac not uber controlling, eating from a place of joy and worship. Yeah.

And when you're eating from that place of worship or you're buying detergent from a place of worship, it's like, we're joyful, we trust the Lord, we're trying to make good decisions here. And when you make it through that barrier and you realize that that one burger isn't going to kill you, it's not the burger that killed you. That one burger, like, you're free. You really are. You can eat from a place of like, yeah, I try to eat healthy and we try to steward things. things. But if I drank from a plastic water bottle today, like, that is not going to mishape my day and torporated to everything. Think of that freedom that comes from that. So it's like, so now you're, you actually are practicing biblical stewardship. You're eating from a place of faith and joy,

and this is all worship back to the Lord. Food is a means of sustaining our body to serve the Lord. Yeah. Not to live longer. Yeah, that's a good thought. We want to be individuals that are fueling our bodies. Say that again. Food is a way of. It's the way of serving the Lord. So we want to steward our body to serve the Lord. And enjoy his good gifts. That's right. My goal is not to live as long as I can and free from pain as long as I can. And I know people object, it's like, well, okay, then wait a minute.

So you want to have cholesterol issues. Like you want to, it's like, no, I didn't say that. I said, what's the primary purpose? We want to serve the Lord. That's 1st Corinthians 620. It's like you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. It's good done.

So I think you land on that. It's like, yeah, that's the purpose. Yeah. And God can use some of my physical ailments. to help me depend on him more. Talk to my lower back about that one. No, this is all helpful. Thanks so much, Greg, for the perspective on this.

If you're angry at Greg, just write him directly. But tell us in the comments, you know, if you have any other thoughts. We want to be, and I'm so thankful again that the word of God helps us to think through all of these things. And so Greg has done a two-part series on this. You can check out as well, and all of his resources are online at Fortis Institute. But Greg, thanks so much, brother. Thank you.