Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - Knowing the Spirit Pt. 05 -Spiritual Warfare, Demon Possession, and Satanic Attacks

Episode Date: May 21, 2024

Jonny Ardavanis is the Lead Pastor at Stonebridge Bible Church in Franklin, TN and the President of Dial In Ministries. He formerly served as the Dean of Campus Life at The Master’s University and as a Camp Director at Hume Lake Christian Camps. Jonny’s heart is to see people understand and love the Word of God and more so, to love the God of the Word. Jonny is married to Caity Jean and they have two precious daughters.Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis: Big Questions, Biblical Answers, is a series that seeks to provide biblical answers to some of the most prominent and fundamental questions regarding God, the Gospel, and the BibleIn this episode, Jonny Ardavanis sits down with Costi Hinn, the President of For the Gospel Ministries and the author of "Knowing the Spirit: Who He Is, What He Does, And How He Can Transform Your Life" and discusses various elements of spiritual warfare, demon possession, and more. For more on this topic, make sure to purchase Costi's recent book which covers each of the topics Jonny and Costi have discussed. Watch VideosVisit the Website Pre-order Consider the LiliesFollow on InstagramFollow on Twitter

Hey folks, my name is Johnny Artavanis and this is Dial In. In this episode, I conclude the series that I've been doing with my friend Kosti Hinn, who recently wrote a book entitled Knowing the Spirit, Who He Is, What He Does, and How He Can Transform Your Life. We've been discussing for the last five weeks various elements regarding the person and function and work of God's Holy Spirit in your life if you're a Christian. And in this episode, we begin to talk through some different things that we both get asked as pastors regarding spiritual warfare. That's a reality we see in the scripture. We even answer the question that is often asked, can a Christian be demon possessed? About this and more in this upcoming episode. Let's dial in. Kosta, we've been talking about the person and the function and the role of the Holy Spirit.

And I think as the conversation has unfolded, one of the things that even we were discussing recently is that on a quest sometimes to allocate how the Holy Spirit works today, sometimes it's easy for those of us in maybe the Reformed camp to lose sight of the fact that we are indeed in a spiritual battle. And so we need to have a robust, which I don't like the word robust. It's overused. It's like state of the art, you know. We need to have an amplified version and understanding of the Holy Spirit because we are in a battle against Satan and supernatural forces. That's Ephesians 6. 1 Peter 5 says that your adversary, the devil, prowls like a roaring lion seeking to destroy. James 4 says that we are to resist the devil because he's trying to destroy us. So let's talk just first about the reality that you and I as Christians, every single

Christian right now, and we lose sight of this because we live kind of glamorized Christian lives at times. We are in a spiritual battle. Speak to that for a moment. Yeah. It's all over the New Testament, especially in Paul's letters. A couple of quick things that come to mind. Ephesians 6 being the pinnacle maybe of spiritual warfare. Armor of God, yeah. Passages, the armor of God. You can start in verse 11 and you can end in verse 18. You could begin with his command to put on the whole armor of God.

You could end with his calling to pray at all times. Obviously, prayer is not part of the armor, but it's essential and attached to our waging war spiritually and our victory. There's another passage in 2 Corinthians 10 where Paul speaks to the mind and Satan and his assaults and how Paul is seeking to destroy and tear down every lofty thing that raises itself up against the knowledge of God. We know then for sure that spiritual warfare is real. It is constant, and it is a battle for the way people think. And what you think will dictate what you believe, and certainly what you believe and think will dictate how you act. And so we know that the enemy is active. There's a couple of other things that I think are important to distinguish here. And it is that the enemy is a covert ops enemy, meaning he does not overtly just show up in your bedroom at the foot of your bed at night, like some horror film with a pitchfork and a red tail and horns

going like, here I am to deceive you. I'm going to get you. And you now have to yell, I rebuke you, devil. Get away from me. And he goes, no. And there's like this crazy horror film. Wearing a clipper jersey. Yeah, he's definitely wearing a clipper jersey, among other things.

And that is what we think of when we come to the topic of spiritual warfare far too often. So how should we think about this biblically? Number one, spiritual warfare is real. Number two, spiritual warfare is a battle for the mind. Therefore, logical conclusion, we wage spiritual war best with a renewed mind, with a mind filled with God's word, with a mind that is set in prayer. We set our mind on things that are above. We set our mind on the things of heaven or what is eternal and not the things of this world.

When James says, resist the devil and he will flee from you. When Peter says, watch out, he's like a roaring lion. All of those commands are attached to a phrase that you know and I know we should talk about, being sober-minded. It means to be clear-headed. It means to be thinking with clarity. And for us, that means biblical accuracy, biblical truth. So people need the Word of God to wage war.

Speaking of the armor, in Ephesians chapter 6, we should think through this as well. When we're looking at the armor, there is only one offensive weapon. It is the sword of the Spirit, which is, by the way, also defensive. But everything else is defensive. You put it on, if you take the visual to that logical conclusion, and it's a defense mechanism against the enemy's assaults. His assaults on our assurance, his assaults on our identity, his assaults on our identity, his assaults on our purpose, his assault on our worldview, all of that. The enemy fires his arrows day after day, time and time again, seeking to erode our trust in God. Now, he cannot take away or destroy your salvation, so he tries to create distraction or delay your sanctification.

He can't steal your salvation. He tries to kind of mess up your sanctification. So he wants you distracted. And you said something, glamorized Christianity. One of the best ways that Satan distracts us and wages war is through covert ops. He wants you comfortable, enjoying life, thinking, wow, look at this, and just pursuing the things of this world,

being lulled to sleep. You know the old illustration about a frog in boiling water? You put him in kind of lukewarm water and you just boil it slowly. That frog will say, that's how the enemy wants to work in our lives. And so what should we do? We should be thinking about what we pursue, thinking about

our money and how we spend it, thinking about our money and how we make it, thinking about our family, our marriage. That is the awareness, the sober-mindedness that Peter calls for. Hey, stay alert. Be alert. Your enemy is looking for a gap in your armor. Don't take a day off from your sanctification, from your walk with the Lord, because Satan Don't take a day off from your sanctification, from your walk with the Lord, because Satan doesn't take a day off from attacking you. Okay, so, yeah, and I use that term glamorized because I think often in our Western culture, you know, the distractions that Satan might throw at us

are more subtle. They're covert operations. He's gonna, we don't really think about our iPhones as, you know, agents of the devil, but Satan can take a good thing and make it a bad thing to distract us from the best thing because he's trying to prevent us from becoming more and more like Jesus Christ. And you talked about a lot of that type of warfare is happening in our mind. You know, that's how Satan works in 2 Corinthians.

He blinds the minds of the unbeliever to keep them from seeing cognitively understanding the glory of God is revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. And the way he works even against a believer is still towards their mind. And it's to keep them in their minds from focusing and meditating and dwelling on the personal work of Jesus Christ. Now, with that being said, and we were talking about the Holy Spirit and we were kind of talking about how the Holy Spirit works today. Demon demon possession we see it all throughout the new testament so with you know you got the glamorized kind of assault of satan in this corner that's not to say that satan doesn't operate this way anymore at all i would say you know we can use

the word strategically like um routinely or typically seen today. This is the way that Satan would work against Johnny. You know, like he's not going to like, I don't come across a demon possessed person in my normal day to day life as a pastor. But I think I have. And so you even talk about that demon possession still at work still happens today. Yeah, definitely. and so you even talk about that demon possession still at work still happens today yeah definitely so in in that scenario um well let's let's talk about that uh for a moment can a christian then be demon possessed because you've talked about assaulted by satan which we would say a christian

can be assaulted totally even influenced and oppressed yeah by satan and his demons those are all external things external things coming to us can a christian be possessed by a demon no and i'll defend that we see in scripture that the holy spirit when he takes residence of believers first corinthians 6 19 he takes over we are the temple no matter how sinful the church at corinth was paul never said you're you know the devil is in you get the devil out of you get the demons out of you and these things will go away he basically tells them to repent and walk in their identity as saints and as holy ones the holy spirit has taken over Let's say kind of a

pithy statement that, you know, I think can be helpful for people, but the Holy Spirit doesn't do roommates. When he takes over, he takes over. You and I, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. The demons aren't allowed to come in and like hang out. They don't pay rent. They don't get a room. They don't get a compartment. It's all of life for all of Christ, and you get the whole or all of the Holy Spirit and his residency in our lives. You don't see any instance in which somebody in Scripture is a believer following Jesus, and then they're demon-possessed, and they got to go get delivered. I think that one of the best kind of theologians on this topic is Wayne Grudem. I've seen Dr. Grudem's work in his systematic theology.

He talks about demonization, and there's a helpful distinction here. I think MacArthur and Mayhew do the same thing in theirs. Demonization would be that a person is being attacked or assaulted. They're being demonized. You can almost hear the agony of that or the constancy of it. You're being attacked and assaulted, but not demon-possessed. Christians can be, many theologians would argue, demonized or attacked by the enemy, meaning demons are assaulting. Demonization is different.

Demonic possession is only unbelievers. That is when darkness has taken over. Full control. Full control. Not even in the word like demonization, it has this kind of picture of this ongoing assault, you know, the weaponization of something, you know, it's like this, this armoring up against, and certainly that can happen as we're attacked, but to be literally possessed is not possible for theologically. Yeah. And it's important. You know, I've talked to people that, you know, have been a Christian, you know, claim Christ and say, I've been demon possessed, you know, as a Christian. And I think it's helpful in that regard to not interpret scripture by our experience, but to interpret our experience by the scripture.

Yes. Because if it's true that a Christian cannot be demon possessed and you say you have been possessed, first of all, you probably evaluate your experience. But if that's what you're thinking, like, hey, you have to separate those categories because to be possessed by a demon means you're not a believer. Now talk about the vulnerability we still have to satanic attack. And we've already talked about this a little bit. You could go to the other side of the extreme and go, well, I can't be demon possessed. I'm a Christian, but I don't know if, you know, the routine prayer of a husband and a wife in the morning is father, would you protect us from the fiery darts of the devil? And would you keep us on guard

against the adversary who prowls like a roaring lion trying to destroy me? You know, like that's very foreign to our prayer life. Why is, why is that so foreign? Like I don't pray with my wife probably often enough, protect me from the evil one today. You know why? I mean, it's in the Lord's prayer. So we should, why don't we, I don't know, maybe a forgetfulness of it or an unawareness. I think when we become aware of something, we start to pray. For example, if I didn't know whether or not I had cancer or some disease, I'd be not apt to pray, Lord, please keep me from having cancer. And if I have it right now, would you please heal me and help me? I don't pray that prayer. Why? Lack of awareness. I haven't

thought about it. The minute we think about demonic assault and the attacks of the enemy, or we go through something and we start thinking, man, I'm really like going through it. We start to pray for it. And so it's important to go back to Peter's words and to stay alert and be sober minded. And I mean, even the fact that you're bringing this up right now makes me think, you know, it's been a little while since I prayed that prayer. I need to be praying. I knew it. For that.

Yes. You too. You know that we need to pray that more. Why? We talk about these things. This is why Peter is the same one who said, it's no bother. Basically, my paraphrase is no bother for me to repeat these things, remind you of these things. This is why Peter is the same one who said, it's no bother, basically, my paraphrase, it's no bother for me to repeat these things, remind you of these things.

It's a safeguard to you. So why don't we, one, forgetfulness, but two, I'm going to say a deficient view or a diminished view of spiritual warfare and demonic activity. I think sometimes in conservative sort of Bible church, maybe reformed, even if people want to throw around the label, you know, cessationist, or we would call it, you know, a foundational view of the gifts and that non-normative pattern today. I think sometimes spiritual warfare gets lumped in there. And it's like, we think Satan's retired. Yes. And so, well, because, you know, we don't think that so-and-so can be an apostle or so-and-so really raised the

dead, that all supernatural things are sort of like on hold. And maybe we don't really believe that, but that's how we act. So in theory, we believe something, but in practice, we don't live it. And I do believe that spiritual warfare has fallen on hard times. And because, you know, yes, I know some of those deliverance ministries are sort of off the reservation. They're kind of kooky and do a lot of weird things. That now we have like no category for demonic assault and praying, thinking the enemy actually could fire some arrows my way. Here's one to be thinking about. What if you kind of being on cruise control is one of his favorite attacks for you?

What if his favorite assault is the cruise control Christianity that so many people are on? And it's not as much, you know, you're never going to foam at the mouth, and you're going to be like, wow, I think I'm being demonized right now. They're attacking me. No, it's actually way more subtle. So we need to be praying that prayer regardless and be thoughtful. But I do think it gets lumped in with cessationism. Like, yeah, that stuff is all weird too. Don't worry about the demonic.

Just read your Bible. You'll be fine. That rationalistic view, I don't think it's helpful. Yeah, and I think even, I think it's in script tape letters that C.S. Lewis talks about that where he's saying that, you know, Satan is going to operate in different ways with different people. And he's perfectly content. I think he says, if you come to Christ, so long as you cruise, kind of to your point. He's going to use different strategies.

Totally. Okay, talk to me. Let's go back to the demon possession thing. Okay. Because I think, you know, if we're talking about even the, you know, the cessationist continuationist thing, um, we still believe in spiritual warfare. We're agreed on that. So we still believe that there can be demonic possession. Um, hypothetically you walk into the church lobby on a Sunday, there's a dude demon possessed. You're the pastor. People come get you while you,

you and I are literally pastors. So this isn't that the situation is hypothetical, but your job is not totally costly, costly. Come here, come here. There's a guy in here. He is demon possessed and he's saying, you know, I hate you, whatever. Yeah. You go in there and you do what? I would start praying right away. You pray. And so you don't, and this is, I think, important. Like you and I don't think we have the gift of exorcism. No. Right. But in that moment, would you with full confidence say, come out of him?

Like, what would you pray? Like, because in my. Good question. You know, because you've heard stories about J-Mac going like, hey, there was a demon possessed guy in the lobby. But I think that would be the prayer, right? I mean, what would be your prayer? You said you start praying. Yeah. about j mac going like hey there was a demon possessed guy in the lobby but i i think and that would be the prayer right i mean what would be your prayer you said you start praying yeah i think i would start praying and i would immediately go to the lord first i wouldn't talk to the demon or yell at that or whether i was yelling or not i wouldn't i don't think my first default would be

come out of him in jesus name just listen maybe for some people um maybe it would. I would pray first to the Lord. I'd be asking him to set this man, let's say it was a man, set this man free. And in that moment, and part of this is experiential. I've been in one of those situations. Can I tell you about it? Yeah. Okay. So I won't name the man.

I don't know where he is now. But his name is Bob. Yeah, yeah. His disposition one day on the phone was very awkward and weird. And I haven't really told this story much publicly because it's only for a certain topic matter. But he called me, was at the church office. So he was in California. And he said, I need you to come over.

And I said, okay. And he said, I'm just going through a lot. I'm hearing voices. There's a lot going on. I just, I need your help. I need your prayers. And I was like, for sure, I'll come over right now. And I drove this little old orange Suzuki Reno that a church member sold me for a dollar.

They wanted to give it to me. But at that time, you know, sort of the prideful idea of like, I don't take anything for free. So you gave them a dollar. So I said, give me a price. I'll pay for it. And they were like a dollar. I was like, fine. So they, and then your pride was pacified. Oh, I was, yes. My pride was pacified. That philosophy, that whole prideful philosophy of like, well, I don't want to accept anything was all crushed. And I'm driving my Suzuki Reno. I roll up and this guy is outside his house leaning on a, on a construction fence like this. Super weird. Everything I'm telling you true, no hyperbole, no exaggeration for sake of drama, just simple. I pull up. I'm like, that's weird. So I park, I go, Hey brother, how you doing? And he's like, not good.

I'm like, okay. And he's kind of talking weird. And I'm like, what's going on? I said, well, come on, let's go inside your place. And we talk to you, pray for you and get a sense of what's going on. We sit down and it's just a small little studio, kind of like ADU, like one of those additional dwelling units kind of added onto a home that he's living in and walk into it and sit down. And I said, what's going on? And he said, I'm just really, really tempted to alcohol again. And he was a former alcoholic. And I said, okay, have you,

have you drank at all? He said, nope, not one drop. I said, is there any alcohol here? He said, nope, there's no alcohol here. I'm just, I'm being tempted. I just feel really, you know, like I'm under attack. And I said, well, let me, let me read you something and remind you. And I grabbed the Bible, which there was a Bible on the coffee table. I grabbed the Bible and I turned to 1 Corinthians 10, 13. And I remember that passage because in college, we had to memorize that when we're dealing with temptation. So I go to 1 Corinthians 10, 13, and I start reading and I go, brother, no temptation has overtaken you, but such as is common to man and ASP. But God who is faithful will not, and I like could feel, not lying, I could feel like eyes just looking at me

and I look up and he's staring at me and his eyes are as wide as like quarter, just like crazy eyes. And because I'd memorized the passage in college, I was like, but God who is faithful will not tempt you beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide a way of escape also that you may be able to endure it. And I'm looking at him, and he goes, I ought to rip that Bible out of your hand right now and kill you. And I said, you stay there. You don't move. And I know what to do. So this is, I'm telling you like real time, my, this is, this is all leading into what I would do now in a church lobby. And I don't know what to do now. I'm like new in ministry. I'm newer in pastoral ministry. Okay. I was 14. No, I'm like,

Uncle Benny had said to do. No, I'm not kidding. It's like, this was field experience. I'm like, this is not in my seminary classes. Uh-oh. And I said, don't you move. You stay right there. And I said, what's going on? And he goes, I hate you. And I'm like, I love you.

What's going on? And then I'm like, what's going on? And he just yells. The next thing I remember is he goes, it's there. It's all right there. And he points from like where you're sitting, pretend I'm on this side of the couch. He's on that.

It's like a little mini sectional. He points there and I'm like, what's right there? He's like, all of it. It's all in there. And like, his voice is crazy. I go over and I open this closet door and it's just loaded with those red Smirnoff vodka, like bottles, just empty everywhere. And there's full ones in there too. And I'm like, all right, brother, that's the first step confession.

And I'm still not sure what's going on. I just know something weird is happening. And I said, I'm going to, I'm going to throw it away. We're going to pray together and you're going to get free today. No more of this alcohol addiction. We're not playing this game. Come on, let's throw this away and let's cut it off. The Lord says to cut something off. If it's, we're getting rid of it. He's like, you're right. You're right. And he goes full passive. Oh, you're right. It's true. Oh, I feel so much better. I feel so much better. I'm like, sweet. I just, I'm like such a great pastor already in training. This is all you do. Come on people. You just

tell them what the truth is and it all works. And I'm feeling really good. I pick it up. I'm going to say, I'm going to go take this to the dumpster and I'm going to throw this away. Come back in. We're going to pray. We're going to talk more. I start picking up the, cause they're in these like Costco kind of box things, start picking them up and I'm about to leave. And he said, you put that down now or I'll kill you. And I was like, stay. And he wouldn't sit down. So he gets up. True story. I don't know why I'm laughing. I put the, well, it's wild. It's like crazy. I put this stuff down, like, stop, stay there. And he literally attacks me, comes over to me. He's a shorter man who I was more sizably formidable than he was. So I grabbed him. I didn't know what to do. I grabbed him. He came at me. I grabbed him. I swung him at

his front door and I pinned him on the front door. And I'm holding, like, with my leg, and I'm holding him. And he's like, I hate you. I hate you. I'm going to kill you. And I'm like, I'm naming him. I'm like, brother, I don't know what's going on right now, but we need to pray. And I'm still, like, novice. I'm like, the Lord can set you free.

My old predecessor, charismatic leaders leaders would laugh at me right now and be like, you powerless Calvinist. I retold you, you know, you got nothing right now. We would have casted the devil out of them. I get all that. I was not in the mood or in the wherewithal. I wasn't in the mood for casting out a demon. I was tired. I wasn't in the mental framework to be like, in Jesus name, like I know what to do. You know, like the confidence. Yeah, I get it. I wasn't in the mental framework to be like, and Jesus, like, I know what to do. You know, like the confidence. Yeah, I get it. I didn't have it. No, I know my language right now.

And so I, I hold him and then he goes, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm like, what? And he's like, I need to take off my shoes. And I'm like, why? And he's like, this is holy ground. Like weird statements like that start coming out of his mouth. I'm not joking. And so I'm like holding him against the door and he takes his shoes off and he's like, all right. And he starts attacking

me again. So I'm like saying his name. I'm like, brother, stop, stop. And finally he, a studio. So there's a bed like over there. He's attacking me, kicking me, trying to bite me. So I grab him and I throw him on the bed and this is where i'm not gonna be ashamed this is what happened this is years and years ago now i throw him on the bed i sit on him and i got nothing left so i'm going back to charismatic roots i lay my hands on his head and i go in the name of jesus come out of him whatever you are and whatever this is come out in jesus name and i'm praying and laying hands on him and i'm like what is going on and i have no way out of this thing i never didn't tell anyone

i'm coming to this guy's house i just went and was did pastoral things he's biting you and and he then goes oh kosty kosty i'm free it's gone oh and he literally says he's free and there's more to the story so i'm getting like played with at this point by whatever's in him and he literally says he's free. And there's more to this story. So I'm getting like played with at this point by whatever's in him. And he's like, I'm free. Oh, I'm free. Get, get off me, get off me. And I'm like, all right. So I get off him and he sits up and starts like, oh, I'm free. And I'm like, wow, like I did it. Okay. So I'm definitely going to be conservative on the gifts. I'm, you can say I'm a cessationist all you want. Then call me a Calvinist and reform to the hill.

But you know what? Hey, I pretty sure we still cast out the demons and this is all you, this is what you do. So I'm going to retain my spiritual warfare theology. And I've got this few minutes. So he goes, I'm hungry. And I was like, okay. He He goes, I'm hungry. And I was like, okay. He's like, let's go eat. His family owned an Italian restaurant in town. And I started feeling weird again. Cause he was looking at me with beady eyes and it was still creepy. And he goes, Oh, let's go. I'll like, all right, I'll drive. Come on. We're walking.

And I said, Hey, you know who we should invite? And I said, the other pastor at the church. And he was like, what? And I'm like, oh, no, like it's back. And he did crazy eyes again. And he was like, not him. And I was like, why not? And he was like, dude, he's like college level. And I was like, what is that? God is my witness is what he said.

I'm like, what is he talking about? I'm like, this is weird. I said, you know what we'll do? Let's do this. He loves Italian food. Let's go. I'm like going salesman mode. Now I have no spiritual authority over whatever this is. So I'm like, let's go back to the office. Let's pick them up. We'll grab Italian. This'll be great. Come on, get in the car. So I coax him into the car, sit him in my front seat, orange Suzuki Reno, and we're rolling down the street. This is in Tustin, California. I remember it was yesterday

and we're driving and I'm like, oh, what's going to happen? Is he going to hit me? And so we start driving. We get close to the church office and he starts freaking out and he's like, and he's cussing at me and I don't know what to do. So again, you can say whatever you want, but I was driving and he went to grab the door handle. And I said, you sit there and you stay there in Jesus name, put your hand down in Jesus name. And he was like this. And I was like, you know, whose authority you're under right now. I was freaked out. So I'm saying things that, you know, and he goes like this and goes still. And I'm like, all right, so that worked, but sitting on him and praying for him didn't. What is going on right now? We get to the church office.

I bring him inside. He's kicking everyone. And he started yelling at the teaching pastor. Your pulpit is weak. Your pulpit is weak. Your pulpit is weak. Screaming at him. He is yelling at the preacher about his pulpit.

Very interesting. And then he would turn to me and he's like, I own you. You're mine. I own you. You're just like your you. You're mine. I own you. You're just like your uncle. You're mine. He's screaming at me like that. And I remember in retro, I'm going, he's yelling at the teaching pastor over preaching. And he's yelling at me about my security in my conversion and saying, I own you. You're mine. And telling him I'm just like my uncle. So whatever's going on in there,

the teaching pastor takes a different approach. Instead of sitting on the guy and do that, he looks at him and says, names the man, says, surrender to Christ, brother. Surrender to Christ. And this guy, we're like holding his feet down and he's like, no, no, you're weak. I hate you. And he's yelling. And then at one point he goes, I'm the devil.

And this preaching pastor brother goes, I'm not talking to you. And no, you're not the devil. Brother, look at me. And he's literally trying to talk to my friend while his eyes go crazy. And this guy was a member at our church. He ran the parking ministry and we ended up finding out he had been avoiding sermons for a while in the name of like, yeah, there's so much parking. I just have to serve. He wouldn't go in to the preaching. So this had been happening for a few months. We caught it. He had given his life over again to alcohol addiction, whatever that portal was. I'm not saying that every person going out to get drunk is now going to be demon possessed. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying in this particular situation, it was the dominion of alcohol. And I had never been more humbled and more aware at do not be drunk with

wine. That is dissipation, but be filled with the spirit. He became under the control of something else entirely. We prayed for him. We tried to, for probably the better half of an hour or two, get him to confess Christ as Lord. He couldn't. We would say, brother, say Christ is Lord. And he would go, Christ, no. And he would cuss again. And our staff, there are people literally right now on planet earth who could verify the story. They know it. All of them are conservative. These are Bible church people. And I'll never forget that day the man we took him another pastor and i you you know albert he does videos with us for the gospel we drove this man we took him over the hospital to do a detox and we said we're going to come back the next day and we tried to get him to agree to just stay and he finally did and he went into

tremors he had all sorts of things going on. And I would say that his behavior was not drunkenness. I have been around drunk people. I lived for the world. I played college baseball. I have been to, you know, whatever. I've lived that life. And I have been that guy. I've been around the guys in that regard. Drunkenness is way different than that type of demonic manifestation, what I saw and we experienced. And the next day we try to, he, you can voluntarily get yourself out. You can't be held against your will in California for what was going on. So they try to get him to stay for the little detox. He doesn't, he leaves. I never see him again until probably

three to six months later. I don't remember the exact span of time, but I'm in my office and he pulls up and he drove a blue Mustang. He drove up, pulls in, comes in my office and my door was open. Albert's door was open. Secretary was there and he walks in and I said, Hey brother, how you doing? And he's like, hi Kosti, what happened that day? And I said, brother, I believe that through your submission to alcohol as an addiction, that the enemy took over your life. And I believe that, uh, your inability to profess Christ and to surrender to Christ and want even Christ, that was either demonization and you are still somehow a believer, but there was some sort of demonic thing, or I believe that you're not a believer and you have been taken over

by the enemy and he's playing games with you. You are his pawn because you continue to give yourself over to that addiction. And so we prayed that you'd surrender to Christ. We sat with you for two hours. You manifested constantly with cuss words and attacks. And he started crying and he was like, I don't know what that was. That's not me. I said, I know. I remember. You know, we were not talking to demons. We were trying to reason with you. And he sat down in the chair at the front of my desk. And right before we kind of get into the further conversation, he does crazy eyes again. And he goes like that.

And I'm like, he did it again. It didn't. And I said, brother, just stop. Listen to me. I want to pray for you. And he gets up. He goes, don't you touch, get away from me. And he literally runs out, gets into his car, drives, never seen him again. That experience was a real tough field experience, like in the field of just failure. But also, I think some eye-opening things that in the Bible world, in just the church world, there are people who are demonized. There are people who are demon-possessed. There are people who, as believers, are under assault from external, that demonization we talked about, oppression,

influence. They're being influenced. The spiritual warfare is happening. I'm not saying they're demon possessed, but they look at their phone and pornography is a stronghold. These things are taking over. They're influencing their minds. But there are also people who are not believers, but they're around the church and they're possessed and controlled by demons.

And so that experience kind of shaped the way I would do things now. I would not necessarily yell at the demon. I think I would, again, pray for the individual. And then I would try to reason with that individual and plead with them to come to Christ the same way that we would in a sermon. If it says, today is the day of salvation. I'm calling for a verdict on your soul right now. Will you surrender to Christ? I beg you, I plead with you, be reconciled to God. I would plead with that individual and certainly get more people involved to be praying. But I have also talked to other brothers in kind of our Bible church world who the strength of these individuals was remarkable. And they had three or four people holding someone down

just to keep them from assaulting people. Have you ever, I mean, internationally opens up, I think a whole other bag of goods here. A lot of that, I went to India and it was rampant. And my very conservative Calvinistic reform cessationist friends were like, hey, we're with you on like, no one's raising the dead, bro, as a regular pattern. But we deal with demon possessed people every single week. Have you

seen that? I think, yeah, both in an international context. And then I think also at camp, you know, like I think there have been students, you know, there's a local like in the States, you know, there was one time there's, there was a young guy that was inviting all the students to come to the grass at midnight and he was going to exercise out of them, the demon of pornography. Wow. So he was saying he was going up to a student that was going up saying, you have the demon of pornography. I'll exercise it tonight.

And I think by like the third or fourth night of camp there was a hundred students that were meeting at midnight like kind of by themselves and when he was trying to exercise the demon of pornography a couple of them got sent down the hill because they were having seizures like legit seizures and you know i was like kind of like what's happening here you know they're faking it you know, I was like, kind of like, what's happening here? And, you know, they're faking it, you know, like, but I mean, these were like normal, you know, central California students. I knew the church. It was like, kind of like, not like your typical, you know, others being dramatic and trying to play spiritual. Totally. I went to go find the young dude and I said, Hey, I need to talk to you. And he comes outside and goes, what can I do for you? Servant of God. And like, I was like, yikes. Um, and on his body, he had written all of these different like symbols. And it's hard

to know like where, you know, that were like either, you know, satanic symbols because he would say like I was trying to fight off Satan or I am, you know, I don't the integration of the spiritual and the satanic world. And he was like really involved in it. And so I think I've seen a few different things like that, even with like a girl navigating. One time I was talking to a girl who was, you know, a young girl wanting to have an abortion. I told her, Hey, you should not. I said, God loves that baby. And she just, no, you know? And so there's been like things like that where you're like, man, I just don't, you know, it's always hard because like, you know, someone listened to this and be like, yeah, I don't know. But it's like, man, I was there. And it's not, that's not, I've seen it. And I believe that we are in a spiritual battle.

Did you, can I ask you a question with that gal? Like, did you pray for her, plead with her? And you're, cause you, and you're not like jump to conclusions about the voice, but clearly that's not normal. No. And she was really strong. Like we couldn't control her. And then she starts throwing some stuff and uh got it so there's

like been things like that where you're like yeah i pray for and um you're like initially the lord would you please you know you're the lord of creation you're the lord of this individual you know you like give her free her from this yeah so yeah i pray for them primarily i i think to one of the the things that i i think r Randy Alcorn's actually done a great job at, and I know you're, you're friends with him is he's got like those series of like modernized screw tape letter books. Yeah. I think there's a lot of young people today that toy around with the dark, like the dark

spiritual elements, the Ouija boards. Yeah, totally. You know, he's got like a whole different series that kind of talks on that. But like, that is part of what is cool is to kind of mess around with the forces of darkness and kind of see what's out there. And I think there is a, you know, obviously you got the subtle things,

our phones, our social media, the gateway drugs to even, you know, the pornographic strongholds that are really gripping the minds of 80% of people under 28, you know, like it's, it's crazy, you know, like that's just the reality and that's, that's demonically influenced. Yes. And, but then you have this other element where, you know, sometimes we can go, ah, there's not that much spiritual warfare. And then you can almost not talk about it because I think sometimes parents and churches may be

apprehensive to incite the curiosity of people in like, what is a true, truly spiritually dark world. And so I know of students as well, uh, that have kind of toyed around and found out. Yes. If that makes sense. Totally. Like, you know, like they're like, let's go see. Like I've been, I've been invited to different things where it's like, hey, we're, you know, like, hey, we're going to do this game and, you know, it could be harmless.

And Randy Alcorn talks about this. I think it's like Lord Falgren's letters. And he's got a couple other things, but that is a truly real element that I don't know if like, even it also shapes the way you're parenting, because if you're going, man, Satan is after my kids, you know, and he's after my kids and the shows that they watch. And that's why I do pray for my daughters. God protect them from the evil one, you know, because he's prowling to destroy my precious babies.

And so, but I do think that I do worry about like just your average student at a high school today and, you know, and a college or, you know, knowing that there are those elements where there is a curiosity in the spiritual world. Can I tell you about a story where I saw and know of a gal who was set free? We got a call. It was in that same kind of span of time. We had those two situations. We got a call to a home in the church and we're a little more prepared for it this time because of what happened. And so not looking for it everywhere, but I was like, oh, here we go. And we arrived and it was a gal in our student ministry around 16 years old, I think. And she's completely normal. Everything was fine.

And then earlier that day, her parents, she's there like sitting in the house and she just went into like a comatose kind of disposition, tongue hanging out of her mouth, laying on the bed, like totally there, but like would just stare. They're weeping, the parents are. And we go over there, I invite, bring the student ministry guy with me and we're talking with them and getting it. And they're like, we don't know. And so I started asking questions because I had done some like research, prayer, thoughtfulness. I bought every systematic theology I could find that I didn't have. And I'm reading and reading. I'm down Grudem.

I'm down MacArthur. I'm down, you know, Erickson, all of them. And I started asking questions. I said, have you been able to access her cell phone net? They're like, no, we're trying to get into it now, but we can't get in yet. I said, okay, keep trying to work on that. Any friends or like parties or any kind of things she's been around recently, they're like, not that we know of all that.

Fast forward. I said, all right, we'll pray and let's keep in touch. Try to get in her phone. I mean, have you called the doctor? And they're like, we're kind of nervous to like involve a doctor right now because this like nothing is like her blood pressure is fine. We, her heart rate's fine. We've checked everything.

And like, she's, we're just not sure. So we called you first. I was like, that's really, really great. If something's not a medical emergency. So I told him two things. I said, number one, try to get her phone. Number two, I would see if you could talk to your doctor or at least assess. I mean, I don't like, is this an aftershock of a seizure?

Like there's so many factors. Should we do that? Fast forward. Doc says, she's fine. I have no clue what this is. Like what? The phone, they get into it. And she had been doing some pretty dark forms of sexting with an individual.

There had been, I asked if there was any drug use, all of that. The details were somewhat ambiguous about the depths of it all, but there was some pretty dark stuff going on in those conversations and in those conversations and in those interactions. And they, you know, I remember the mom crying and I talked to them both. They're very sweet people. They love the Lord and they had adopted her. And they said, like, I can't believe this is happening. Like, do you think this is demonic? And I said, look, I don't know of instances that are normal and not spiritually tied in

which this is not a seizure. It's not some medical thing. This is a girl who was normal a day ago and is involved in some very dark kind of interactions and things going on that have sexual correlation too. And now she looks like this. And they said, when we read, we've read the Bible. I said, have you read scripture to her? Have you prayed for her?

They said, of course, time and time again. And she will like cry when we do. And she looks, it looks like she's trapped in her body. It's remarkable. So we read, I read all of Romans 8 over her, like sitting there, read all of Romans 8 from start to finish and left our students guy there to do the same on that visit, prayed. And they said, what should we do? And I said, there is only one mechanism for setting the captives free. And it is the gospel. It is the word of God. And so I said, I recommend if it were my own child, I, the depths of what that phone has

on it, you need to deal with that. But for now you need to read scripture. I would put worship on music in your house. That's declaring the truth of God. And I would have worship music playing 24 seven. And I would read scripture over my daughter till I'm, till I literally am passing out. And they did that for a couple of days and she came to completely like released from whatever that was. And two days later, two days later, and everything

was normal as though it never happened. And they got into some counseling and things like that. That's the only other situation I've encountered those two. And the way that somebody was set free was evidently those parents prayed that gal free read scripture over her. And then they had to safeguard their house and they had to get down to business. Their daughter was into some messy stuff. And I don't have like a degree in all this and some lock on every answer, just like no one does. that the devil assaults generations and that men and women are opening their lives up to sexual addiction and demonization and or if they're not believers total just demonic control i believe alcohol would be a similar one um and i believe obviously drugs would be another gateway what do all those things have in common all of them pollute and take over the mind, which goes all the way back to the beginning

of our conversation. It says, I'm so scared. How do I make sure that demons don't attack my daughter or my son? Fill your home with the word of God. Fill their life with the word of God. Renew their mind from an early age. H.P. Charles said one time, why would you wait?

Why would you wait? And he says, the world will not wait to teach your children its ways. So don't wait to teach your children God's ways. We have parents that wait until 13, 14, 15, and 16 to talk to their kids about lust and about life and sin. It's a little too early. We don't want, well, at eight now, and that's a pretty generous number at eight. It used to be 11. More studies are showing by eight years old, children are being exposed to pornography. So you're going to wait. I'm not trying to browbeat and make people feel guilty. I'm just, I hopefully incite some prayer and some folks to think, you know, seven, eight years old is when you need to start thinking about talking to your children, even earlier, about guarding our heart, guarding our eyes, guarding our minds.

We don't need to go into all the details and, you know, awaken love before it's time and start using terms that go, what's that? But even with my own sons, and I'm not the poster child for doing this perfectly, we're in the trenches with parents too yeah but my sons are nine turning ten five turning six and we already have conversations and have since they were four and five yeah we got our heart we got our eyes or we guys are we got our eyes we got our minds and that could be walking down a street where we have we didn't know that there was some lingerie shop or some bikini clad thing or whatever. And, and all we, as boys, even the girls sometimes get involved. They're like, Hey boys, um, guard your eyes and guard your minds coming up on the left.

And we kind of all the boys know, like, don't stare. And, and we've run into those situations. It's a family thing. We're not ashamed of it. I'm not like you sinners. It's more. And I tell my boys, guys, we are in a world where the devil will work overtime to try to get you to look places he wants you to look.

He wants you to hear things he wants you to hear. And he wants to get into your mind so that it's less about God's word and less about the gospel and less about the Lord and more about whatever you want and the world wants. And we are in a battle. I want to teach my sons that early, my daughters as well. And so I say that all to just encourage parents. We don't need to operate in fear. We should talk to our children, have open conversations, talk in our churches and equip people because the enemy is using these various portals, if you will, or cultural access points to grab the minds of our young people. Yeah. Even when you're talking about the, you know,

the rampant nature of those attacks on young people and older people alike, you know, I think another one that maybe is not necessarily included in, if you're creating vulnerabilities to satanic attack, you know, one of them, I guess, you know, anytime someone says I'm under spiritual attack, one of the first questions I ask them is, are you bitter? Oh, that's good. Because in Hebrews, it says, let no root of bitterness destroy you. You know, like it has the ability to destroy you. And so I think sometimes we think of like pornography and drugs just, and I would agree and drugs and alcohol. And then you just go well not only that it says let

no root of bitterness you know the by it many may be defiled it's like you think of like a lack of forgiveness towards a brother or a father or a spouse or a friend or a co-worker has that same ability to make you vulnerable to satanic attacks that would be one just comment and then i think just and you kind of mentioned it and we can kind of land the plane here you know there's a point a couple months ago where i was i'm finishing the book you know that i'm writing on anxiety and i was preaching and i almost felt weird you know telling katie like i'm in a unique, you know, nevermind Katie, but I feel uniquely under spiritual attack and almost like feels like you're like, okay, you know, Mr. Weird guy.

You're so anointed, John. Yeah. But like, and obviously this can happen for any believer. Totally. But I think like it was at a time when my mind was most full of scripture. I was saturated in the word of God. I spend probably on average at least six days in the Bible or six hours a day in the Bible. You know, most days, right?

Like, like any pastor. Totally. I hope. But it was a time where I went, I'm, I am being, and I almost felt embarrassed. You know, like I'm being assaulted. Like I am, I am being, and I almost felt embarrassed, you know, like I'm being assaulted. Like I am, I am being attacked. Why, why, why is it so weird? Like for me to say, like, why did, why, how do we make that more normal?

Because it is to, I guess, to both of our points, that's just a biblical reality. It's a biblical reality. And yet somewhere along the lines, like if you were to call me and say, it should be perfectly normal for you to call me and say, Johnny, you need to pray for me today. Satan is after me. And obviously my own flesh is already sinful. And then on top of that, I am, I feel hounded by the devil and that should feel perfectly normal, right? and biblical for you to say that and for friends to operate with friends that way and for spouses to operate with spouses that way satan's he's he's he right in ephesians 6 he's shooting darts extra hard today and they're not the subtle time the subtle type they're the the? So like, well, how do we make that more normal? So good. I would have the concern that we rightly so want our church leaders super qualified.

Yeah, definitely. First Timothy three, one through seven, Titus one, five through nine. I want my leaders super qualified, but we may be attached that to the idea that we also deep down, if we're honest, even if we don't say we believe this, we treat them this way. We want our leaders superhuman, like they aren't going to struggle like that. And then we tell ourselves, well, we can't show that level of weakness. Some of that, who knows where it all comes from, but some of it certainly from kind of the old days where parents don't apologize to kids, never show weakness to the people you're leading. And one older pastor tell me one time, like, you know, take your weakness to the Lord.

You're, you know, people don't need to see that and they shouldn't see that. Nobody wants to see weakness in their pastor. They need your strength. Give them your strength. Okay. You're a superhero. You know, great. All of that is where we get that idea. So now I can't call Johnny and say, hey brother, I'm just really wrestling with a heart issue right now. And I need a voice of

reason. Why? Well, Johnny's going to think he's above me, better than me. Oh, now he's going to, you know, or vice versa. You're like, I can't tell Kosti that. Like he'll just, you know, all of a sudden it's going to look like, I don't even know what I'm doing with that. And it's like, no, those are all lies from the enemy. He seeks to divide and destroy. He wants us apart. He wants us going. My wife can't handle that. I can't tell her she'll flip out. He, he wants a wife saying, I can never tell him. Yeah. Or I'm crazy. Yeah. Or just like, you know what? It's all in my head.

I'm being dramatic. Dude. And we do that in maybe more the Bible church world more than ever, because we're like, everything's a heart issue. So, you know what? This is probably just my own issue and I don't need to bring that up. And I'm probably just being dramatic and emotional. If it's a woman or a man's like, yeah, I just need to, I just need to take every thought

captive and, and, you captive and walk in the truth. And we know all the lines. An older pastor once said to me, you know what the difference is between a new believer and a longtime believer? I said, what? He said, the new believers don't know how to sell you with all their big words and Sunday school answers. What he was describing is the best people to talk to are new believers. When you're like, how are you doing? They're like, I'm struggling with sin.

You know, all these things are just the encumbrances, whatever that word you said. It's real, bro. I'm telling you. It's like lust this week, some girls, some guys. And you're just like, I love this. We're actually being honest. Being candid, yeah. Believers, how you doing this?

Oh, too blessed to be stressed, brother. I'm just, I'm the head and not the tail. Better than I deserve. Better than I deserve. I was a worm in the dirt. And he made me, uh, uh, seated with him in heavenly places. You're like, can I just get a real answer here? You know, it's been a good week in some ways, but in other ways, I've been a real complainer. I haven't been content. You know, it just, lust has been crouching at my door, as God told Cain, waiting to shuka, to take over.

Hey, for me, it's been a little bit of anxiety and worry. I'm trying to control the future, and I just need to trust the Lord. I already know, but I'm not doing it. Would you pray for me? Because my mind, I know the truth. My body is not living the truth. We got to be more honest and stop thinking our leaders have to be super human. They need to be super qualified.

But Paul, the apostle, I think the Lord has done a great job with his choice of the apostles, giving us men, obviously a perfect job. He didn't do a bad job. Perfect. He chose men who showed their raw authenticity. Yeah, there's no stoic denial. No. And the gospel writers, because maybe Peter didn't want to show all of his and tell all the stories about himself, the gospel writers did it for us.

And under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit, Paul said, who's adequate for these things? The things I don't want to do, I do. The things I do, I shouldn't do. Lord, help me. Who had a mouth on him and needed to be put in his place? Peter. I mean, we should go to each other and realize we're not going to be superhuman. So I'm grateful for you.

We have that friendship. I know we have that within our churches too and with our elders. And there's a vulnerability with wives like we should be able to share anything with our spouse with our pastors with our friends and go yeah i'm in the fight of my life here i'm not trying to look good for you i want to be faithful and right with the lord and if that means confessing my sin to one another and then be healed. I'm not here to self-preserve. I want to obey God. And in that, the devil hates that. Why? Because he has no power.

When we confess and we do that, it's over. Yeah, and I think even going back to, you know, you're talking about leaders, I'm talking about just any Christian, and especially you would think that like, you know, to your point, like, oh, I've got a hold of these things, which would be not the truth at all. Um, I think too, it does change the nature of friendship. Like if my

view of our friendship is, Hey, we're in the same battle, we're in the same trench and Satan's going to attack you in different ways than he's going to attack me, but he's going to attack you. And that's going to change the nature of my prayer for my friends. You know, so if you were to say, man, I'm kind of under some sort of spiritual assault that I would go, of course you are every single day. You are, you just may not know it. And the days that you do know that it may be acute and you may be aware of it, but there's no less of a spiritual war and battle taking place that day than any other day. You just may be aware of it but there's no less of a spiritual war and battle taking place that day than any other day you just may be more aware of it so i think that changes the nature of

friendships because very few friends i think just christian friendship is a topic as a whole that needs to be developed totally but it would change your relationship with your friends if you woke up and went, man, Jeff is in the middle of like, he woke up this day and he's going to have a massive spiritual battle. Because that's a promise from God. Satan is prowling to destroy him. God be with my friend today. So I'm thankful for obviously your friendship in that regard. But I think this is just so important because we, we lose sight of this and what we called at the beginning, maybe

what times is glamorized Christianity. Yeah. So thank you, brother. Oh, grateful for you, man. Grateful for you too. you