Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - Legalism vs. Grace: Are You Trapped in Performance-Based Christianity?Jonny Ardavanis and Jeremy Vuolo

Episode Date: September 30, 2025

In this eye-opening conversation, Jeremy Vuolo (Campus Pastor & Dean of Athletics at The Master's University) sits down with Jonny Ardavanis and breaks down one of the most misunderstood topics in Christianity: legalism vs. grace-driven obedience.KEY TOPICS COVERED:    •    What legalism actually means (and why it's not in the Bible)    •    The difference between legalism and biblical holiness    •    Understanding antinomianism (anti-law mentality)    •    How to pursue sanctification without falling into performance-based Christianity    •    Why God's commands are for our good, not bondage    •    Assurance of salvation: how to know you're truly saved    •    The role of the Holy Spirit in Christian obedience    •    Grace-powered vs. self-powered righteousnessYOU'LL LEARN:    •    How to escape the legalistic trap while pursuing holiness    •    Why loving obedience is different from rule-keeping    •    The biblical balance between law and grace    •    How regeneration changes our relationship with God's commands    •    Practical guidance on Christian liberty and conscienceSCRIPTURE REFERENCES: Romans 6-7, 1 John, Galatians 6, John 15, Ezekiel 36, 2 Corinthians 3:18

Sometimes people grow up. You hear people that deconstruct, they'll say, like, I grew up in a very legalistic environment. Right. That word, legalism, isn't even in the Bible. So, but it exists. It's something. A working definition, you know, just as I reflect, is I think a heart that is seeking to earn favor with God by obedience to the law. Or a heart that is driven by wanting to maintain favor with God by obedience to the law.

And when you look at legalism in its core, it is a self-reliance to better ourselves. And I think that's where so many people fall into the legalistic trap is legalism feels like outside external commands bearing down on a person who doesn't want to obey them. You know, thou shalt not do everything you want to do. And so you're just perpetually frustrated, everything I want to do, I can't. And so you're trying to get up out from under this law.

A heart that's obedient that's been transformed is a heart that sees the goodness of those commands and says, no, I want that because God wants that. I want what God wants. I want to obey. I want to follow because I see the good, because I trust the good God giving me those commands. Jeremy, thanks for sitting down. Introduce yourself what you do, who you are, your family, you're a professional soccer player. I know that much.

Yep, back in the day. come on johnny thanks for having me on first of all yeah thank you grateful for your ministry brother and uh it's an honor to be here um yeah my name is jeremy volo i am currently the campus pastor and dean of athletics at the master's university come on a role you're very familiar with i i never to the degree that you're in no no you're a legend around those parts johnny yeah and uh i'm married to my beautiful wife ginger we have three kids felicity is seven Evangeline is four, and Finnegan Charles is fresh, six months. He's a future preacher with that name.

Yeah, trying to set them up, although maybe not in the line of Charles Finney. I don't know how many Finnegan, so it just, I was like, it fits, okay. Keep going. Yeah, so young family, love in life out here, go to Grace Community Church, love being a part of the ministries here. There's a lot of exciting stuff in college ministry. As you know, I mean, you serve so many years faithfully in youth ministry. and so it's an exciting season to come along students who are trying to glorify God

and blaze their own trail faithfulness. And so, yeah, just staying busy, ministering to those students, opening up the word and, yeah, trying to be faithful. Well, thanks for being on, grateful for your family, your ministry. One of the things I wanted to talk to you about, kind of in light of even my time here at the Messrs. University now as a pastor, you encounter the topic or the theme of legalism. Yeah. And sometimes, or antinomianism, which we can explain even what that is,

but it's kind of the opposite, you know, and many people would think. But sometimes people grow up. You hear people that deconstruct. They'll say, like, I grew up in a very legalistic environment. That word, legalism, isn't even in the Bible. So, but it exists. It's something. But it can be kind of like the boogeyman, you know, or it's like, what is it?

How do you even find it, you know? Maybe talk about your background, and then give us a working definition for legalism. Yeah, that's good. What you said is so true. Trying to nail legalism against the wall can be difficult at points because people can use it as a weapon. But it is a real thing. I think a working definition, you know, just as I reflect, is I think a heart that is seeking to earn favor with God by obedience to the law. Or a heart that is driven by wanting to maintain favor with God by obedience to the law.

looking at the law of God, which is a good thing, but seeing it as a ladder to climb in order to gain something from God, whether initial salvation or ongoing approval in sanctification. And so you think of, well, I think immediately of Paul talking to the Roman church in Romans Chapter 10, speaking of his fellow Jewish leaders, and he says, they misunderstood, they thought that righteousness was something they could attain. They didn't realize it was a gift from God. And so they looked at the law that God gave not as something for their flourishing and their growth and holiness and their own joy and obedience to God, but something that would earn them favor. And then the better they could keep it, the more happy God would be with them. So it was

very exchange kind of minded. And I think legalism pops up in our hearts. It's the natural bent of the human heart. In fact, if you look at like the philosophical teachings of humanism, what humanism basically teaches is we don't need divine favor from a divine being. We can accomplish on our own growth in goodness. We can attain goodness and beauty on our own, apart from divine help. And when you look at legalism in its core, it is a self-reliance to better ourselves and then in the Christian context in order to gain approval with God. So we have the divine being part there as a legalist who claims to be a Christian, but you're still relying on yourself to better yourself. So if I can just keep this law good enough, if I can just be holy

enough, then the effect of that is God's approval of my life. Yeah, so let's say like sometimes you'll hear that phrase, I grew up in a legalistic environment. Yeah, sure. And that could be very true of someone. But it's not as if someone is telling them their entire life, do this or you're going to go to hell necessarily. Sometimes it's self-imposed. You use the term before we hopped on of conscience binding. It's not as if everybody, you know, hey, if you don't wear this, then you are not going to go to heaven. But you can grow up in a certain way where you get the idea of things where, you know, I'm, my standing with God is determined by whether or not I adhere to A, B, and C principles.

You know, so just talk about that because sometimes people use that term, even though that's not what's being communicated from a theological perspective. Right. But philosophically and practically, it might be derived. Yeah, and this is where things can get complicated. And this is where we need to stick to a very simple solution, which is ultimately going to be what Paul tells the Corinthians and First Corinthians for, do not go beyond what is written. Yeah.

Whether in preaching the gospel or in preaching the pursuit of holiness in the Christian life, don't go beyond what is written. But people can get confused by it because if there's a preacher calling for holiness, like genuine holiness, like put off the deeds of the flesh, they say, ah, you legalist. You're focused on what you shouldn't do

or what you should do, the thou shalt nots or the thou shels. Well, there is law all through scripture. And 900 times throughout the scripture says, do not. Yes. Obeying those commands is not legalism. Right.

In fact, you know, in 1 John 4, the Apostle John says, you know, with a transformed heart, now that's the key, right? A regenerated heart that's obedient from the heart. God's commandments are not burdensome. We actually, with a transformed heart, see God's law for what it is. It was given to us for our good. God's law is not arbitrary. God is not simply saying, you know what, I don't want you to be sexually immoral.

And we go, what? Why? That's for our good. No, I don't want you to have that. No, he's actually giving law for us that benefits us. It glorifies him, and it's for our joy. And so when we understand the nature of God's law, we recognize it's not burdensome.

It's actually a delight to keep God's law. How do you juxtapose that with, at times, it's Paul says, I buffet my body so that I might obey Christ? You're not saying it's not requiring discipline or effort, you know, even not a self-imposed or not self-determination, picking ourselves up by our own bootstraps, but grace-fueled sweat to sometimes it's hard to obey, of course. Well, the reason it requires grace-filled sweat

and why it's hard to obey is because we still remain in our fallen flesh. For sure. God's law is good. Every single command that God gives is for our flourishing as people. It's for our benefit. The reason it's sometimes hard to see that, understand it, and obey it is because we're still fallen and broken. Yeah.

And so Paul even says in Romans 7, I don't understand why I do what I don't want to do. I have this sinful flesh. That's why he longs in 1st Corinthians 4 to put off this earthly tent, or is it 2nd Corinthians 4, to put off this earthly tent and put on a heavenly dwelling. He's saying, man, this world is so riddled with temptation. Now, that doesn't mean God's law isn't good. It doesn't mean it's not pure and it doesn't mean it's not going to produce joy.

But you just think of a child, right? my little daughter all she wants to do is stay up late eat candy and play same well she needs yeah your daughter or you me personally she needs law imposed that's actually for her joy those vegetables are actually going to make her feel better yeah that bedtime is actually going to make her feel better tomorrow going to school is actually going to give her a greater future and a greater enjoyment of life right yeah now she doesn't fully grasp that and understand that because her nature is telling her just cotton candy midnight movies that's it yeah well that doesn't mean the law's not good it just means there's something in her disposition that she doesn't quite understand well that's how it is with

our fallenness our desires for sin mar our view of the beauty of god's law and the the benefit of the pursuit of holiness which is why we're called to renew our minds daily to understand no this is good so even though for instance to take it to a more serious level even though we have strong desires pulling at us to hate our enemies, and we want to fuel that hatred and not forgive them. We look at God's law that says, forgive as I have forgiven you. That's a law. That's a law of Christ. And we say, I don't want to forgive. I don't feel like forgiving. I don't think forgiving them is possible or even good. And yet as we renew our minds and remind ourselves of truth, we go, but I'm going to submit to and trust his law and obey, knowing that he's

giving me this command for my good and his glory. And then ultimately, when we have better perspective, we recognize, oh, that was good, that was pure, and I'm better off for it, because that hatred would have destroyed me and would have revealed a heart that refuses to forgive, hasn't been forgiven. So, yeah, it's an issue of belief at the end of the day. Looking at God's law and saying, no, this is good, but it demands that we have a heart that trusts God and wants to honor him. And I think that's where so many people fall into the legalistic trap is legalism feels like outside external commands bearing down on a person who doesn't want to obey them. So it's the, you know, thou shalt not do everything you want to do. And so you're just perpetually

frustrated. Everything I want to do, I can't. And so you're trying to get up out from under this law. A heart that's obedient that's been transformed is a heart that sees the goodness of those commands and says, no, I want that because God wants that. I want what God wants. I want to obey. I want to follow because I see the good, because I trust the good God giving me those commands. So legalism is destroyed in regeneration. When we look at the goodness of God's commands, and we actually then want to pursue them because we trust the one giving them to us. Does that make sense?

Yes, your working definition of legalism is basically, it's just finding your right standing with God on anything other than the finished work of Jesus Christ, thinking that because you adhere to, thou shall not, or thou shall, you've earned favor with God. So I think, in general, like sometimes, you know, I used to work here, you work at a university where there are some principles,

you know, some rules that you mentioned. Like, it's not legal. to say personally, hey, I don't drink in public. Sure. That's not legalistic. It's legalistic for me to say that because I don't drink in public or because I don't drink alcohol, I am more righteous before God than you are

because you have Chardonnay. It's not legalistic to say, you know, I'm not going to watch personally certain shows and movies that other people I know watch. That's not legalistic. It's legalistic that I think, oh, because I don't do that, I'm more righteous before God.

Right. because I adhere to those things. So I think people get a little bit confused in that regard because people can say, even sometimes between brothers, hey, I don't think you should watch that show. Sure. And you would say, well, that's legalistic. You know, well, I'm not saying that you're saved or not saved.

If you do or don't watch that show, I'm saying that show has obscenity and sensuality. And as a brother, I don't think you should be filling your mind with garbage. And then sometimes the reaction is, ah, legalism. Right, right. Yeah, we can cry legalism when we feel like we're being pressed or when we feel like we don't like the commands God gives. It's easy to cry, you legalist, which then we start flirting with the danger of being antinomium, which is anti-law, right? Explain what that is.

So anti-law is the reverse of legalism where you say, because we are no longer under the law, but we're under grace, so Christ has paid for all of our law, breaking on our behalf. Therefore, we have no laws we have to keep. So we don't have to obey any laws in order to have a right standing with God. Well, then you get into the reality of, wait a second, now you're misunderstanding the nature of regeneration. Because yes, we are not. And this gets really slippery, right? Like, certain people would say, and maybe just expand on this, you know, well, the laws are tutor that leads us to Christ. Right. So that's the function of the law. We can never be saved by the law. If righteousness could be derived from adherence of the law, you know, Christ died for

nothing. And so let's say, the whole point of the law, all the thou shouts, all the thou shalt not, is just to show us the impossibility of us earning our standing before God. So now they kind of relegated as a relic and say, we're under grace, and that's Romans 6. Yeah, and I think what they're doing is understanding a facet of the law,

which is true. Right, it's absolutely true. In Romans chapter 3, Paul says that the law shuts our mouths. It makes everyone recognize their guilt. It's like a speed limit sign. You know, you're speeding. The cop pulls you over. You say, why have you pulled me over? And he points to the sign. It says, because you were going 80. That says 60. You go, ah, I don't have a defense. The law is like the x-ray machine. I just broke my hand, got an x-ray today. And I can see, by the way. I can see the shattered bone in my hand on the x-ray. Well, that's the law. It says you're broken.

You know, love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself. Deuteronomy 6, Leviticus 19. Johnny, do it. And you go, I can't. And I don't. And I don't. Okay.

The law has just effectively shown you that you need a Messiah. You need a savior. However, the law to love God and love your neighbor is still aspirational. And it's still a command. I'm still commanded to strive. Now, I'm not called to strive in my own. strength. I'm not called to grit my teeth and go, okay, I just got love God better. What we see in regeneration is a power, namely the Holy Spirit of God, the person of the Holy Spirit of God, is living

inside of me to empower me to obey. And transform my affections, right? Yeah, transfer my desire to obey. Now, instead of loving myself with all my heart, mind, and strength, I actually love God with all my heart, mind, and strength. So Ezekiel 36 is a great passage. Speaking of the coming new covenant where ezekiel speaking the words of god prophetically says i will put my spirit within you and cause you yeah to obey all of my statutes you will be you will be driven to obey my law yeah well so there's a new operation in the believer the holy spirit of god that is driving you to obey yeah so now even then in my pursuit of lawkeeping as a christian i still recognize I can't do it in my strength, which is why a beautiful passage like Galatian 6, the fruit of the

spirit is, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control. Against such things, there is no law. Bro, if you are producing love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, and the rest, what law will you violate? None. Because the essence of the law is love. And so as the spirit produces his fruit in you become a lawkeeper. But it's not this external law beating you down that you're trying to get out from under. It's coming from within you

as you now want to love your neighbor, as you now want to have self-control, as you now want to forgive and have peace and have joy. And so the antinomian is forgetting the principle of regeneration because they're still looking at the law as an external force beating down on a heart that doesn't want to obey. So talk about this from like a Christian perspective because, well, I guess just to recap,

you know, legalism is my standing with God is based upon what I don't or don't, you know, don't or do, do. And that can be manifested in different ways, you know, like meaning it doesn't have to be necessarily taught unless you do these things, you won't enter the kingdom of heaven. Sometimes it's just, it's a conscious bearing, straight jacket. Sometimes people grow up in that environment where it's this, ah, you know, like, hey, if you don't wear a suit and tie, you know, you don't really love the Lord, right? They jump to another side of the spectrum, because this could be true.

This isn't just, this is people within the church, people that do know God can fall into one of these camps, right? They can become legalistic. That's Luke 18, you know, like the Pharisee and the tax collector, like, they're, hey, the only, it's a failure to be awestruck by grace. I've never met a legalistic person that can sing amazing grace, not just with their lips, but with their heart, right? Some people grow up in this environment that they say is phariseical.

They jump to the other side of the spectrum. where, hey, the point of the law was just to lead us to grace, and they wouldn't say this with their mouth, but, you know, shall we continue to sin so that grace may abound? Yes. And they can end up using God's grace as a credit card as a license to sin, but they would actually say, it's the opposite side of the spectrum. You know, Sinclair Ferguson would say that an antinomium is just as legalistic as a legalist, because he's still defining his relationship with God based upon the law. So he was, unlike the legalist that says, my relationship with God is sure because I don't drink alcohol. The antinomium might say, I'm actually exercising my Christian liberty and proving that I've been bought by the blood of Christ.

So drink all the alcohol you can, hypothetically. And all they're doing is still defining the relationship with Jesus Christ to the law. The Apostle Paul, that's brilliant. And Sinclair is excellent. and his insights are just phenomenal. Oh, yeah. The argument of the Apostle Paul and Romans, he deals with the legalist

and he deals with the freeness of justification. And he shows that it's a gift. Was David justified by his works or by faith? His faith was accounted to him as righteousness. So then he preaches the gospel, which demonstrates or should leave us, I should say, asking this question, wait a second so if the gospel is that free is if grace is really undeserved merit not on the basis

of anything I have or could do or couldn't do yeah then does that mean I can just keep sinning yeah his answer comes in chapter six when he goes yeah that's a good question let me answer it by saying how can you continue in sin when two things have happened you've died and you're you've been resurrected so a death has occurred and then a transfer of slavery you are a slave to sin now you are a slave to righteousness yeah so something has actually changed and that's why i say the heart of the issue is regeneration because our relationship with the law changes not because the law changes the law is good the law is holy we are changed we are transformed from god haters to god lovers So that's positionally.

But then progressively, because I think this is where a big part of the conversation comes in, especially amongst Christians, because you get these guys talking about, you know, hey, let's talk sanctification for a moment. Positionally, everyone, let's say hypothetically, everyone's on the same page. I'm saved by faith, right? I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Where the maybe leaning, you know, I've jumped out of the legalistic environment. I'm going more of this law gospel distinction.

All you have to do is rest in the finished work. Christ to a degree there's there's a lot you would say amen right hey we fix our eyes on christ the author and perfector of our faith but if you brought up a message about hey working out your salvation with fear and trembling yeah and then we would also say for it is god who works in and through you right paul says i buffet my body you know i'm a farmer a soldier a box you know a boxer a slave there's a level of effort and that becomes i think to an antinomian or someone that may not identify with that camp, but I'm not a legalist. I'm for sure not a legalist.

They become worried when you talk about that term I used as Holy Spirit-inspired sweat. I think he was in disciplines of a godly man. They get nervous, right? So talk about sanctification. Obviously, the regeneration is the element. That's just positionally. But I want to be holy. And I got a fight for that.

Where does that become legalistic just in your pursuit of not just, you're not trying, I'm not trying to earn my salvation, but I am trying to be holy. Yeah, man, that's a great question. And my mind immediately goes to the motivation for holiness, which is love. So Jesus in John 15 calls us to obey his commands, and what are his commands that you love one another, as I have loved you. Yeah, if you love me, you love my commands over and over again. First John, too.

Well, what does it mean to keep your commandments? Well, understanding the true nature of the law is love, love toward God, love toward others. It's first vertical, secondarily, horizontal. And if we're motivated by a genuine love for the Lord, we're going to want to do what he calls us to do for our good and his glory. And so someone who says, you know, Jeremy,

I love my wife who I'm married to, but I don't want anything to, I don't want to talk to her, I don't want to spend time with her, I don't want to interact with her. I'd go, well, you're a hypocrite. So you're saying you love her in word, but your actions are betraying that. Same with the Christian. I'm trusting in Jesus. I love Jesus.

He's saved me. He's rescued my life. But I don't want to do what he says. I don't want to spend time with him. I certainly don't want to be like him. Like why would I want to be like him? Because you know that's what the pursuit of sanctification is, Christ's likeness. It's just becoming like Jesus.

So we all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image. from one degree of glory to the next, second greener in the 13, and this by the Spirit, who is the Lord. So you don't want to be like Jesus. You don't want to grow in your character like him. You don't want to grow in holiness, but you love him. You're trusting in him. You're following him. You're a disciple. Well, I would say, no, you're a hypocrite. You're a Christian by word only. And what we see in the New Testament in all of Scripture over and over and over is when someone encounters the saving grace of God, they are set in a course, a direction of living life

in greater holiness, a greater longing for the Lord to know him, to be like him, to follow him. And so when we have commands of work out your salvation with fear and trembling, we know my desire is holiness. Now, what's going to empower me? His spirit. So still, the legalist is the one who's relying on their flesh. The Christian is going, no, I can't do this. I can't grow in holiness apart from his spirit empowered me to do so. Sometimes that gets taken out of context in the sense of,

well, if God's the one who works it, you know, in and through me, then I let go let God type of the thing. And, no, it's still, it's synergistic, salvation monorogistic, you know, the sanctification is synergistic in the sense of we're working out our salvation with dependency upon the Lord. So, and sometimes I think there are stages

of the Antinomianism, right? Like so there, you know, there's the people that abuse the grace of God as a credit card, you know. I just, you know, I'm not under the law. I'm under grace and I'll just sin and ask them for forgiveness. Then there's kind of like these other people that I think are really tangled up, right, in their motives. And they're always second-guessing their motives and like, was this out of a love for God? You know, even tomorrow I'm going to preach on this in Psalm 19. David says there are warnings in scripture, adherence to living and obedience to the warnings in scripture.

like, hey, if you go have an affair, that's going to ruin your life. There's going to be some consequences. Well, it's Jesus who says pluck out your eye, cut off your hand. Yeah, so adhering to those things is not out of, well, how do I know if I'm making no provision for the flesh out of love or out of submission to the warnings in Scripture? You're going, well, hey, the warnings are still your friend. We're not saying the warnings in scripture are bad. David says, moreover, by them, your servant is warned in and keeping them there as much reward.

Right. Right. So there's also, you know, there's, it's not, I think this is why I always come back to this, you know, A.W. Tozer says it takes a whole Bible to make a whole Christian. And I think sometimes people kind of pick out those verses. But even I think in the realm of, hey, you don't want to know the Lord Jesus Christ, there are some people that would say, you know, they grew up in a, hey, you need to read your Bible every day environment. Now you jump out of that camp and you go, hey, I don't ever want to impose the burden of Bible reading on my people. Right. Like, hey, that's, that's a conscience binder. Yeah. Never ever tell us. anybody to sign up for a Bible reading plan because if they miss a day, you're imposing law on them and they'll feel guilty. So in the middle between legalism, anti-nomianism is maybe a, what would you say, a happy, a biblical balance, which I don't like the word balance, because it seems like kind of like you're trying to wrestle two things that are wrong. Right. In the middle of that is a grace-powered, you know, spirit-empowered desire to love the Lord Jesus Christ, which is revealed through obedience how does this you know depending on where you're at in those spectrums how does

this affect our assurance of our relationship with god because i think a lot of people grow up with a lack of assurance sure struggle with the sin they keep it secret they grew up in a legalistic environment where if i confess this you know i'm done right you know so then they go they become kind of like ick about all this they jump over and they'll say well that was my environment that's why i felt like i could never confess sin but really it could have just been the idol of their own reputation or different factors how does how do we kind of harmonize these realities in the sense of knowing that our hearts you said it are prone towards legalism and legalism can be manifested in seemingly two opposite ways that are really just the same problem right there's so many places

is to go, Johnny. I know you are so pastoral and in dealing with people who struggle with assurance, I would, my mind goes to First John. And even as you brought up some of the warning passages, I think that plays into it. When we look at some of the warning passages or the statements like, if this is you, you might not be saved, we are ripping things out of context oftentimes. Like the book of First John is a pastor, an apostle, writing to a church whose assurance is being rocked because the Gnostic heretics have come in and went, oh, you're just obeying or you're just listening to Jesus? Well, no, we've got a better teaching for you. Let's move on from Jesus. And they're infusing heresying to the church. And these Christians are going, wait, are we the ones who

aren't saved? Are we lost? Are we deceived? So John writes them a pastoral kind epistle saying, can I just give you confidence? I'm writing these things to you so that you might know that you believe. It's bolstering. It's not discouraging. He's not. He's not. trying to undermine. Sadly, a lot of preachers will preach it in an undermining way. Yeah. No, it's actually bolstering their faith. And you look at how is he bolstering them? He's using an appropriate look at the fruit of your life. And I say an appropriate look at the fruit of your life. Yeah, you can become so obsessed with the fruit of your life that you could convince yourself you're lost because you go, where's the evidence? You know, you could ultimately show, man, do I really love others? Do I really

love God? Well, I don't love them with a perfect, pure love, so maybe I don't have any love at all. And you become so self-analytical. And paralyzed. Yeah, you're paralyzed, and you're lost in a lack of assurance. Yeah. Well, what John is trying to do is say, hey, look, if your life is a life of consistently walking in sin with no repentance, you love your sin, you're protecting your sin, you're not confessing it, well, that's how an unbeliever walks.

But are you exposing your sin? Well, yeah, I don't love my sin. I want to get rid of it, but I'm just worried I have so much of it. Oh, well, that's what Christians do. Christians confess their sins. And when they do, they're forgiven. I mean, he opens it with saying in 1st John 1-8, if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, truth isn't in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful in just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all in righteousness. If we say we haven't sin, we make him a liar. So he's bolstering them saying, guys, you're going to wrestle with sin. But the important factor is how do you respond to it? Are you repenting? Are you seeking? Are you

to turn from your sin, that should give you confidence that you're his. And so the battle with sin itself, the fact that there is a battle, is actually bolstering to the Christian battling assurance because it's showing them the non-believer doesn't care about their sin. In fact, they love their sin. They want to protect and keep their sin. And so what John does over and over in this letter is he's writing to them to have them have a healthy examination of themselves. Hey, look at the evidence of your life. And based on that, assuring them, guys, you're producing the fruit of believers. You're producing the fruit of those who love Jesus are holding onto him in faith, trusting him imperfectly, but returning to him in faith. That's a

Christian. That's what a Christian looks like. That's how a Christian lives. And so the believer's relationship with sin, with the law, is imperfect. But what you can see in your life is evidence of transformation and a spirit-empowered life that has a new relationship with sin. And that's important for someone battling assurance. And just to say, you know, I think you'd say this as well pastorally is the answer, if you're battling assurance, whether you're lost or whether you're a believer who's just uncertain, the answer is the same.

You look to Christ with faith. Yeah. And you trust in him. you ask him for help you ask him for power over your sin and whether you're an unbeliever or you're saved no one looking to Christ and faith will go to hell not a single person has ever gone to hell trusting in Jesus nor will they ever

come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden you will find rest for your souls that's a divine promise from Christ from a guy who cannot lie yeah he cannot defy himself yeah I think those it's you know so helpful Jeremy you know two verses I think of just as we close for the legalist, a familiar verse that sometimes gets suppressed and can be theologically affirmed but practically denied. A legalist needs to hear for by grace you have been saved through faith

and that not of yourself. It is a gift of God, not as a result of work so that no one may boast, meaning there's nothing you have done that has earned your standing before God. And it's very possible for someone to be standing unsinking sand. Conversely, an antinomia needs to hear who says, so I can continue to sin and because I'm covered by grace, they need to hear Titus 2.11. For the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to all men.

What does it do? Instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us, why does he extend his grace, to redeem us from every lawless deed and to purify for himself a people for his own possession that are zealous for good deeds. This is to your point.

They want to honor and obey and love the Lord Jesus Christ. Yeah. Jeremy, thank you, brother. Hey, thanks for having me, Johnny. It's a joy to be with you. Yeah, pleasure.