Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - Mark Spence - Hindrances to Sharing the Gospel

Episode Date: October 5, 2023

In this episode Jonny Ardavanis sits down Mark Spence, the SVP of Living Waters Ministries and asks him to share the main hindrances and objections he receives while he shares the Gospel. As an evangelist, Mark faithfully preaches on the streets in an attempt to reach the lost. In doing so, he encounters much opposition to the truth and in this episode he will break down how he responds to common objections, obstacles and rebuttals people provide while he shares with them.Watch VideosVisit the Website Follow on InstagramFollow on Twitter

Hey guys, my name is Johnny Artavanis and this is Dial In. I want to thank some of you guys for notifying me that some of my podcast episodes had been taken down from Apple Podcasts. We've re-uploaded those and we believe the issue has been fixed. In that same vein, if you guys would leave us a comment slash rating on whatever podcast platform you listen on, that really helps get the word out about the show so that more people can hear the truth of God's word and the gospel of Jesus Christ. Well, in this episode, I sit down with

Mark Spence. He's the senior vice president of Living Waters Ministries. He's a great guy, a good friend, and he's got a heart of evangelism, which I am just drawn to because we need to reach people with the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so in this episode, I ask him just what are some of those main hindrances that we have to share in Christ, and what are some of the main hindrances that people have in receiving the truth of the gospel? You're not going to want to miss it. Let's dial in. Well, Mark, thank you for sitting down. I have so many questions I want to ask you as you are a preeminent leader in regards to apologetics and evangelism.

I wanted to ask you, what are some of the main oppositions that people throw at you when you're sharing the gospel in regards to the Christian faith, the Word of God, and so forth? I think one of the top questions that I get just from an individual out on the street is they think that they are plenty good enough to get to heaven. Why do I need to become a Christian? I'm already good. I'm good enough. And they've kind of compared themselves to other people, right? And you'll always find somebody worse than yourself if you compare yourself to somebody else, right? If you go up to the guy who's smoking marijuana, you say, man, you shouldn't be doing that, right? You're killing

dendrites inside your brain. And he goes, so what? I'm still a good person. I'm not like that guy slamming heroin. I go over to the guy slamming heroin and I go, what are you doing? He goes, well, I'm still a good person. I'm not like that guy. That guy is raping individuals. And I go up to that person who thinks he's a good person. And he points to the murderer and the murderer points himself to a mass murder. What happens is when we compare ourselves amongst ourselves, we will always find somebody worse than ourselves. And the truth of the matter is God is not going to be comparing ourselves to anybody because he doesn't grade on a curve. He grades on the cross, right? And so when we look

at the law of God, that demonstrates that we are all as an unclean thing in need of a Savior. So I think one of the top questions that I get out there is people go, why do I need to become a Christian? I'm not that bad of a person. And that paves the way for the law on into the gospel. That's such a helpful misconception to address because I think people do look at God sometimes like a cool professor that does great on a curve, but he is also a righteous judge. Okay, so one of them would be the relativity of morality or the depth of their sin. R.C. Sproul says we judge ourselves by ourselves and amongst ourselves. What would be another main opposition that you hear when you're sharing Christ with people?

Well, I think the number, actually the number one question I'll get from a skeptic, from an atheist, an agnostic, would be the problem of evil. If God is so loving, so powerful, why is there evil and suffering inside the world? And C.S. Lewis, he juggled through this as well. He wrote a book called The Grief Observed. But you get one of those first versions, those first copies, his name's not on it. He wrote it with a pseudonym, not wanting anybody to know the difficulty that he was going through. Married to Joy Davidman for 10 years. She comes down with cancer and dies. Married out of convenience, fell in love with her, then she was snatched away.

But for C.S. Lewis, it wasn't an argument of logic, does God exist? But it was one of loss. If God exists, since God exists, why do the innocent suffer? What is going on? I was at Long Beach State, and I was doing some open-air preaching, and I had a professor that came up against me. We were talking about the problem of evil. And when I was all done, I had a student come up to me, 29 years old, and she said, I have a question about what you're bringing up about suffering and God. I said, yeah, well, what's the problem? She said, well, if God is good, why is there suffering?

Now, when somebody raises an objection like that, we can't just philosophize on them, right? These are people. These are not issues. These are people. These are not issues. These are people. These are not questions. These are people that are going through life. And so I asked her, because I'm not clairvoyant, why do you ask?

And that's a good question to ask when somebody asks you a question. Of all the questions that you could ask, you asked that one, why? And she said, I'm 29 years old. I've been given six months to live. I have cancer. My parents are dead. I have no siblings. I have no boyfriend.

When I die, my name dies with me. And I said, you know, I think you're asking the wrong question. It's not, where's God? Why is God doing these things to me? But rather, how kind is God to remind you that you have an appointment with death? How kind is God to allow our paths to cross? You know, I mean, Jonathan Edwards said, God stamp eternity on my eyelids that whether I'm awake or asleep, I think of you. Right now, you've been given cancer. You're looking at it in a way of

being so negative. But if you turn it around, you think 150,000 people are going to die today. People that are planning for tomorrow. Tomorrow never comes knocking. But all you think about is death. How kind is God to give you an opportunity to get right with him? And then she was all teared up. And since I'm a guy, I pretended to tear up, you know, but I was, I was there with him and then she was all teared up and since I'm a guy I pretended to tear up you know but I was I was there with her and I was jiving with her and I cared sincerely about what she was going through but that I think is the the top question and it's an easy thing to deal with yeah philosophically it's not difficult to to address it so let's say you're talking to an atheist and they they bring up the

problem of evil. And even that would be, you know, I think you would say like a self-contradicting argument because there is no God, there is no law, and there is no standard by which we're measuring good or evil. So how do you even approach the question itself in a way that points to the existence of God's law in God's Word? Well, somebody pointed out, you know, you cannot have evil without good, and you cannot have good without God, right? If there is no foundation for morality, then there's no difference between a man who kills his dog to feed his starving son or a man who kills his son to feed his starving dog, right?

And that's very important to know. I was—the story before that grew out at the Long Beach State. There was a professor that stepped up on the soapbox. And we got like big cameras and big old boom mic that's recording us out on the campus there. And the opening line that this professor had was, Christianity is not true. To which I said, well, do you believe in absolute truth? And he said, no, I don't believe in truth.

I go, is it true that there's no such thing as truth? He goes, yes. So then I just asked him, are contradictions allowed when you communicate? Because he's contradicting himself. And he said, yeah, contradictions are allowed. To which I said, oh, so they're not allowed. He says, no, they are allowed. I go, do you realize when you say contradictions are allowed when you communicate you're saying contradictions are not allowed when you communicate you need to always tell the truth well we

kind of were butting heads a little bit there in a very loving respectful way actually we're gonna release the video here pretty soon when we're all done he came up to me and he said hey Mark would Mark, would you do me a favor? Do me a solid. Don't air this footage. I said, why not? He says, I have no doubt in my mind that you're going to edit with integrity. You're not going to make me look like a buffoon. I did that myself. I'm just going to ask you not to do the video. And I said, what do you teach? He said, I teach debate. I teach people how to argue, right? He lost the argument. Yeah. But his issue while we were talking was the problem of evil. And I addressed in our conversation, I said, listen, even Richard Dawkins said that there

is no such thing as evil. We're just dancing to our own DNA, right? I mean, the French poet Baudelaire, he said, how can you talk about a loving God as I'm kneeling at the bed of my dying child? John Lennox came along and he said, I'm just curious, what does the French poet Baudelaire say to his dying child? Does he look into her eyes and say, tough luck? That's the way the ball bounces. Because as an atheist, that's all you have. No meaning of life. You know, why am I here? What's going to happen to me when I die? So there really is no problem of evil with God

because as a Christian, we know Romans 8, 28 is really all things are working together for a good. And if that really be the case, well then, there's really no issues. They're just stepping stones to get us to where we need to be. So God has everything under control. That's so helpful.

And I think you've already touched on it, but I'm interested in kind of hearing more in this regard. You mentioned that when we're answering these objections, we're talking to people and not just the oppositions that they bring. Kind of talk about the perspective that I've heard you mention before in regards to the James, the wisdom of God. We're not answering as intellectual elitists that are trying to vanquish foes in an argument. We're trying to win people. So

talk about that wisdom from above in regards to how we navigate tough conversations. Yeah, well remember that if it wasn't for God's grace, we would be in that same position with faulty logic. And Scripture says that God has to grant repentance that leads to the truth. That God didn't just come to give us fire insurance, but He came to save our mind from the depravity that it's resting inside of. Greg Bonson, the presuppositionalist, he said, The apologist who fails to recognize the greatest need of his opponent, which is to give him the gospel.

If he doesn't do that, he's cruel and he's proud. He's cruel because he fails to give them what they need the most, which is the gospel. And he's proud because he's more interested in coming across as an intellectual elitist. Look what I know and you don't. I mean, what do we have that we haven't already received? So we must get to the gospel. That is the power of God into salvation. It's so important.

Yeah, I love that, what you said, because it's, we're to be always ready to give a defense, but with gentleness and respect. And I think sometimes that latter element is lost in an attempt to basically bash people with the truth. And so we have to speak the truth in love. We need to realize these are people who woke up this morning spending more time thinking about what sort of a latte they're going to order in the morning than what's going to happen to them 100 years from now.

So we need to enter into the conversation with gentleness, wanting to make peace, being respectful. Listen, we are all created in the image of God. We're all fellow image bearers. It doesn't matter what their sexual orientation is. I can be patient with someone. That's just not my natural proclivity to do what they've done. God has protected me from doing certain things. Yes, because you're inherently better than them.

Exactly right. No better. No, that's so helpful. Now, Mark, where can people hear more about your ministry, hear more about even some of the other questions that you guys answer as a ministry? Yes, our website is livingwaters.com. Obviously, I have the Instagram.

We have a YouTube channel. It's called Living Waters. And we just passed 1.2 million subscribers. And it's really just people, hitting people in the streets, sharing the gospel, and really on a street level. And we finish all of our podcasts off with, you know, thank you for tuning in to the Living Waters podcast where we have no idea what we're doing. And it really seems like that because we're not arriving, we're not attaining to anything. We're just kind of like linking arms. And we said, we'll go anywhere as long as it's forward. Well, that's so helpful. And that has been a helpful

resource to me. So I encourage everyone listening to check out the Living Waters ministry and podcast. But Mark, thank you once again for your time and for your help in this regard. Yeah, my pleasure.