Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - The Cost of Following Jesus: Why True Discipleship Demands Everything | Jonny Ardavanis

Episode Date: June 10, 2025

What does it really mean to follow Jesus Christ? In this powerful conversation, we explore the uncomfortable truths about discipleship that many churches avoid discussing.Key Topics Covered:Why Jesus never hides the demands of the gospel in "fine print"What it truly means to deny yourself and take up your cross dailyThe difference between adding Christ to your life vs. giving your life to ChristHow to practically live for God's glory instead of your own recognitionWhy persecution and difficulty are promised parts of following Jesus📖 Scripture References:Matthew 16:24-25, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27, John 15:14, Matthew 10:38This isn't about earning salvation - it's about the heart transformation that genuine faith produces. If you're tired of watered-down Christianity and want to understand what Jesus actually taught about following Him, this conversation will challenge and encourage you.💬 Discussion Questions:How does our culture try to make the gospel "easier" than Jesus presented it?What does daily cross-bearing look like in your life?How can we find the motivation to live sacrificially for Christ?Watch VideosVisit the Website Buy Consider the LiliesFollow on Instagram

The more I look at the scripture, the more I'm aware of the reality that Jesus never hides in the fine print what the demands are of the gospel. Jesus doesn't promise prosperity, he promises difficulty. And he says that if you don't pick up your cross and follow me, you're not worthy of me. You can't be my real disciple. I'd say the other part is like, just practically, like how serious are you for your love for Christ? Like what are the things in your life you know you need to give up if you want to be closer to Christ? Jesus says in John 15,

"'You are my friends if you do what I command you.'" I think a lot of people would go, I don't know about that. I don't know. I mean, that sounds a little legalistic. No, that's the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. Brandon, thanks so much for sitting down. You know, sometimes when I'm watching the Golf Channel,

which I do from time to time, they'll have these medication commercials and they'll kind of show you what it can accomplish for 45 seconds. And then the last 10 seconds is a man talking a mile a minute, discussing or detailing the minor side effects of that drug or medication. And sometimes it's like, oh my goodness, you know, minor side effects include explosion because they're trying to hide in the fine print what might be a result of taking this medication. And I think culturally sometimes that's what people do in the way that they articulate and communicate the gospel. It'll be like, give your life to Jesus and everything will be fine. And the more I look at the scripture, the more I'm aware of the reality that

Jesus never hides in the fine print what the demands are of the gospel. And you work with young adults, but you're also active evangelistically. You coach your son's teams. You're out and about in your neighborhood. Maybe just talk about how this is a reality, not even just in the big evangelical world, but a lot of people just tend to lean this way as they share their faith is to not necessarily include some of the tough stuff

regarding the gospel. Well, I would think here's just a practical way I see it is sometimes if you've ever heard somebody talk or just in conversations, you, you get somebody who goes, I don't really like this part of it, but I kind of need to tell it to you. So it's like all the good stuff about the gospel of Jesus died for you. Jesus loves you. Jesus wants your life to be better. Jesus can help your marriage, all those kinds of good things, which are true and have a right place in the gospel. Um, But they then kind of backdoor the, hey, I don't know if I ever said the word sin before.

Right? And it's that type of thing. Or I've heard pastors even, they get up front and they go, man, if I, if this was my way and I was God, I wouldn't do it this way. And it almost diminishes what you would think are the main points that were,

that just classically, evangelically, and when you read the Bible, Jesus is constantly bringing up to people that he's not just trying to make their life a lot better and easier, but these things that are really vital and important to the gospel message, he puts right out in front. Loud and clear for everybody to know right out of the bat. Yeah, I think it's important too, because when Jesus, who is the author of communication and therefore never repeats himself unnecessarily, when he's kind of honing in on something over and over and over again, it's ironic because it's one of the most under-communicated elements of the gospel on modern day. You know, you just think about how many, there are hundreds of Christian universities in the United States and just wonder how many of them are communicating these realities.

I'm just going to kind of read a litany of Jesus's words. Matthew 16, 24 and 25, it says, Jesus told his disciples, if anyone, I even kind of stopped when I was teaching through this, if anyone, meaning he's about to kind of designate some significant demands and the cost of following Jesus. And it's not for the super saints. It's not just for his elite disciples. It's not for Peter, James, and John only. He says, if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. In Mark 8, 34, it says, and calling the crowd to him with his disciples, meaning to the masses. Maybe just even before I read that, the rest of this verse, maybe just talk about even the idea in our contemporary culture where there are maybe tiers of following Christ, different levels. Yeah. It's almost like, hey, we try to put the bar as low as we possibly can, then anybody can get through. But yeah, there's not different tiers. I mean, God, Jesus is clearly going to say, hey, if you want to follow after me, this is what it looks like. Not, hey, if you want to follow like in my really close inner circle or hey, if you want to follow after me, this is what it looks like. Not, hey, if you want to follow like in my really close inner circle or hey, if you just want to be a general person, the demands are basically the same. Entrance to the kingdom of heaven, entrance into a relationship with Christ,

all the different language that even he uses is for everyone, same standard, same responsibility. Yeah. And so he says, he called the crowds to himself and he said to them, if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses life for my sake and the gospels will find it. We see this in Luke 9. In Luke 14, he says, whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. And that's not like, hey, you're not, to your point, at a certain level. You're not a disciple at all.

And I think even sometimes people use, well, the disciple is a super serious Christian, but again, we would just want to affirm that there are disciples and then there are unbelievers, right? Matthew 10, 38, even before I read Matthew 10, 38, people are familiar with the, I would say, the kind and compassionate invitation that Jesus offers in Matthew 11. He says, come to me all who are weary and burdened and heavy laden, and I'll give you rest. My yoke is easy. My burden is light. We like that one, but we often don't include what he says the chapter before, which is whoever does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it. And whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. What do you think, you know, let's just talk about this idea when Jesus says, whoever

finds his life will lose it. And whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. Just big ideas. How do we interpret that? Well, I'd say a big idea just in all those passages that you've read is that there's the gracious heart of God that gives this universal call to all people, right? It's inclusive, meaning anyone can come, but it's exclusive, meaning if you come, this is how you come, right? You come with denying yourself. You come with a humble spirit, understanding who you are before a holy God. So I think that's a really big idea to go, yeah, God, Jesus is gracious and loving. And as Peter would say, and wishing that none would perish, but he also realizes there are those who will perish in their sin. Right. So that's a big idea right there. And then I think

just the idea of like, find it. I mean, how would you say, Hey, the scripture is going to say, Hey, those who want life in Christ need to search and find it. Jeremiah says, search it with all of your heart. Right. And then you can find it if you do. You're asking the question, Mike. Well, I think like when Jesus says, whoever finds his life in this life will lose it. I think he's just saying that whoever finds their meaning, significance, value

in the things that this world ultimately, what does a prophet of man gain? The whole world and lose his soul. And then conversely and contrastly, if someone loses their life, meaning that they no longer see their life as their own, but they now live wholly and solely for God, that person actually has lost their life, losing their sense not just of their dignity because you actually find your dignity when you recognize you're made in the image of God. But you don't live for the recognition of man. You live for the recognition of God.

And ultimately that might not be realized until you meet him face to face. I think one of the things that's interesting is, you know, people, you know, Thomas Jefferson, as we were talking about, Thomas Jefferson was known for cutting different parts of the Bible out that he didn't like. So we call, he calls it the Thomas Jefferson Bible. I think there are a lot of people in churches that would never, that would theologically definitely affirm that all scripture is breathed out by God. But when you read the scripture and you see this idea over and over again, and I stopped short of a list, I kept, I could have kept on going in Luke 17 and Luke 14. Jesus says, if anyone comes to me and doesn't hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he can't be my disciple. You can be in the

evangelical church your whole life and no one be like, hey, well, what does that mean to hate my mom and my dad and my brothers and sisters? Well, that's a figure of speech. It's a Hebraism, which just means in comparison with the value and the love you have for the Lord Jesus Christ, everything else in this life is fleeting. We don't articulate those truths. Maybe you just, I think a lot of people would say like, no, I, I understand the gospel. We would say John 10, 10, Jesus comes to give life and life abundantly. People know that verse. People know John four that says I'm here to give living water. And you would say yes and amen. People would know that God so loves the world, right? And he gives these broad invitations, but to your point, it's an invitation to come and die. Jesus uses this language though, of denying ourself or a death to ourself, losing our life.

Let's talk about just practically what does that mean to deny ourself and how do we do that? That's an ongoing reality in our life. That's not just once upon a time. What does that look like practically in the life of a believer? Yeah. I mean, I think of the word like submission and surrender. So like there's a daily taking up your cross. It obviously gives a literal idea of like the cross meant death. And in some sense, it's, you know, talking about a death to self, but it's kind of like, I heard a guy say a couple of weeks ago, actually, I was listening to a sermon and he's talking about the sermon on the Mount.

And he used this analogy for some people, the dreams that you had prior to coming in Christ, you're going to have to put to death. Because you dreamed about maybe a career, maybe a certain aspiration that you had. And if you come to Christ, you're basically surrendering those things going, hey, it's not my will, Lord. It's all yours.

Like whatever you want with me. And if it means the thing I thought prior to Christ, I was going to pursue and do is now different because of what Christ has done for me, then that's something to do. I'd say the other part is like, just practically, like, how serious are you for your love for Christ? Like, what are the things in your life you know you need to give up if you want to be closer to Christ? You can have a job that's great. Yeah. But if you look back and go, the job that I have is pulling me away from the things that I know are causing harm or that

I know are holding me back from a deeper relationship with Christ, serving my church, whatever it might be. We're not being legalistic, but just saying you might have to go. It's time for me to find a new job. Like those are practical implications of, are you going to deny yourself so that you can follow after Christ? Yeah. I think when people, you know, get baptized or share their testimony, sometimes they use that vernacular, I was this and that, such and such years old when I gave my life to Christ.

And sometimes just asking the question, did you really give your life to Christ? Because I think we tend to kind of add Christ to our life. We don't necessarily give our life to Him. So I think to deny ourself, Jesus says in John 12, 25, he who loves his life loses it and he who hates his life in this world

will keep it to life eternal. Just means that have we yielded? You use the term surrender and submission. To your point, it doesn't mean that you quit your job. Right. Although it may, but it means that you do everything in your job for his recognition, not your own,

for his kingdom, not your own, for his recognition, not your own, for his kingdom, not your own, for his glory, not your own, which is easier said than done. You know, I think left to ourselves, every Christian has to be mindful of the fact that they are prone towards self-gratification, self-exaltation, not self-denial. And so the gospel really is very counter-cultural. You know, maybe some of what are the, some of the sneaky ways that living for self sneaks in to our life. And it doesn't have to be inherently sinful things. It could be morally neutral, but it could be sinful. But every day we kind of need this reality. Paul says in first Corinthians 15, I die daily. Um, because again, this isn't a once upon reality, you know, time we reality, we gave our life to the Lord.

It's an everyday thing. How does this kind of sneak in over time and why we need to crucify the flesh and pick up our cross? Yeah. I think that's why the whole idea of that daily thing is you're waking up each day, realizing I have a battle with my flesh that's going to be prone to, as the hymn would say, wander, right? And that's my, my inclination is going to be to wander. I think the closer, the more spiritually mature we grow and closer to Christ, I would, you know, say in some sense, maybe you're less prone to wander to certain things, but you still have that inclination in your heart just because we have this sinful nature that constantly is battling with our new nature.

And that's why it says, hey, we're going to be transformed by degree over degree. It's little things over time that change us and make us into the image of Christ. Yes, there's a point in time where we dramatically change and we have a new heart that's given to us, but we still have that battle that constantly happens day after day. Yeah. When, you know, when Jesus talks about, you know, picking up your cross daily and following him, we sometimes talk about the cross of Christ as a demonstration of the love of God, but it's also a model to us because he died for sin,

but we died to self. And one of the passages that most people would know is Romans 12, that we are beseeched on behalf of the mercies of Christ to present our bodies as a living sacrifice each and every day. I've mentioned before that I love the story of George Mueller. George Mueller ran an orphanage in Bristol. He was a pastor. And in his autobiography, George Mueller has 3,000 or something crazy recorded answers to prayer. He is a man of prayer,

but he was asked, what has been the secret of your life? And he said this, there was a day when I died. I died to George Mueller, his opinions, preferences, tastes, and will. I died to the world, its approval. I died to the approval or blame

even of brethren or friends. You know, one of the things that we don't often think about is that living for Christ obviously now means we don't live for the approval of the world around us. That's easier said than done. And everyone would be like,

oh yeah, of course, amen. But even if we're gonna go on from here, okay, we're denying ourself, which means it's a death to our ego. We pick up our cross, which means our life belongs to the Lord and we may face persecution. We may face opposition. Those things are actually promised. Acts 14, 22, through many tribulations will enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus continues in John 12, 26, after saying he who loves his life loses it and he who hates his life in this world finds it. And then he says, if anyone serves me, he must follow me. Now there's all these different language, you know, that this language that Jesus employs to talk about what it means to give your life to the Lord. Right. And none of these things are to earn his favor as we'll want to clarify at the end.

But what does, if you were to, you know, if someone was to ask you, hey, well, what does it mean to follow Christ? Because we culturally use, I'm a believer, right? Yeah. And sometimes people say, I'm a follower. If someone was to say, hey, what religion are you? If you were to say, I'm a follower of Jesus Christ, it sounds more serious than I'm a believer or I'm a Christian.

Well, what does it mean to follow Christ? Maybe just practically, because a lot of people would say, I follow Jesus, but don't. Yeah, well, I mean, I think you'd probably look at it and say, what are the first couple of things that are just right off the bat? It's like, do I take my sin serious? Do I repent and turn from my sin? Like the seriousness of dealing with that

is almost like the entrance in, right? I have faith. Well, what does faith look like? Faith looks like me returning, repenting of my sin and turning to God. So do I believe? Well, the easiest way to say, do I believe or do I have faith is to say,

does that show up in my life? But it's not a one-time thing, right? It's like an over, it's a lifestyle that then I'm going to practice ongoing, that type of thing. Yeah, you'd have to add like, as part of that, you know, Jesus says in John 10,

my sheep hear my voice and they follow me. Well, how do we hear his voice? Well, we hear his voice as he speaks through his words, so as to follow his word. And then to your point, obedience, Ephesians 5, 1, be an imitator of Christ. So Jesus says in John 8, if you continue in my word, you are my real disciples. Meaning that there are people who claim to be disciples that are not disciples because they don't continue in his word. Jesus says in John 15, you are my friends if you do what I command you. I think a lot of people would go, I don't know about that. I don't know. I mean, that sounds a little legalistic. No, that's the words of the

Lord Jesus Christ. Well, I mean, at the end of the sermon or not, that's what Jesus says, right? There's gonna be a lot of people who come to me at the end of chapter seven and say, Lord, Lord, and they're going to list off some really spiritual things and go, I did all of these things for you. And yet he's going to go, I didn't know you like depart from me. Why? Because you didn't have a heart that truly believed. And then that truly wanted to love and follow after him in the ways that he's just kind of outlined through the Sermon on the Mount. Yeah. And so obviously the, those elements of obedience are the fruit of true salvation, not the root of salvation. And we would want to clarify that. But let's just talk about the catalyst

for picking up your cross, denying yourself. What's the motivation there? Because it's not, as we've mentioned, and we'd want to clarify, it's not like, okay, this guy puts in his time and Jesus looks at him and says, okay, you're in now. And I think we would look at that backwards.

Like, okay, I just got to start by drudgery. I'm just going to kind of hate this life. Where, where, where do we find the incentive or the heartbeat behind this? Well, I would say the compelling thing is, and it sounds kind of like, like that cliche thing, but it's the love of Christ, right? It's when you see what Christ has done for you, right? You come to him in faith and it's that then that compels you or propels you to live your life out in obedience. So I think Jesus gives the great parable where he says, hey, it's like the buried treasure. So to me, I always kind of go back to this example of, you can talk about all of the difficulties in life, if you will, that are going to come from being a believer. And Jesus promises, they hated me, they're going to hate you. They says, blessed are the persecuted, right? Why? Because he set the

example of he's going to be persecuted. We're going to follow in that example. And if we do, he promises persecution comes. But the reality is you kind of look at it and go, is it worth it? Well, the trade-off at the end is, going back to the parable of the buried treasure, hey, you see the treasure that you're going to purchase the field to have is much more valuable and worth it than anything you had to sell off to get there. And until you find that much value in what Christ offers you,

like you're not gonna one, want it, but two, if you do see that value, then you're willing and able and it gives you kind of that purpose, that love for Christ to continue with it. Yeah, that's Paul, 2 Corinthians 5, that the love of Christ compels me. And he says, it's a rational deduction,

having concluded this, that Christ died for my sin, therefore I'm gonna live for him. You know, we live in a world where people say, if you give your life to Christ, you're gonna get everything you want. And there's an element where, yes, you'll get everything you need in Christ, but Jesus doesn't promise prosperity. He promises difficulty. And he says that if you don't pick up your cross and follow me, you're not worthy of me. You can't be my real disciple. Let's say,

maybe just as we close, there's someone that understands this, right? I get it. How do I grow in that? You know, like I want to live for the Lord. I find myself sucked into, you know, a busy life. What is this? I work 50 hours a week and I'm a dad or I'm a student. How does this maybe shape my morning? Right? Like, you know, because that's going to be just as the filter by which I live my day. What are maybe just practical things? Hey, I would pray this way. I would read this. I would preach this to yourself. Yeah. I think, I mean, it sounds like the basic things and you just hit them. Like, I'm going to spend time in the word because that's, what's going to transform my mind.

It's going to transform my heart. It's going to make me desire the things of God over time. I'm going to spend more time in prayer. I mean, those are the basic things we could say just about everything, but it's starting with a heart that says, why am I doing this and kind of seeking after him and those types of things, finding people around you, they're going to encourage you in that, right? Maybe bring some accountability, but are going through those same things with you to say,

we're spurring one another on towards love and good deeds. And we're consistently kind of being around each other and pushing us to be better in that way. Yeah. I think, yeah, just the reminders and prayer that God would wean us from this world and that we want to view Christ as part of our life. But it says when Christ who is our life appears, he is our life. And I think that's a missing element in our thinking at times, even if we theologically affirm that, yeah, I'm going to pick up my cross, we end up by default waking up and thinking of me, myself, and I. And so we need to ask the Lord to give us the grace and the power and an understanding of his love that functions as this catalyst. I don't want to

live for me. That's John 3, right? He must increase. I must decrease because by disposition, we wake up wanting to exalt ourself. We wake up wanting comfort. And Jesus says, no, don't live for the things of this world. Live for me. And then he says, I love this. He says, if you, anyone serves me, the father will honor him. Meaning that there's a reward to living exclusively and holy and solely for Christ. If you live for God's glory, God will honor you, which is, it's not just that we have the incentive, it's that we have the anticipation of a real reward because he's gonna honor those who live for his glory. Well, thanks, Brandon.

Absolutely.