Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis - The Main Question To End Abortion - What is it? - Mark Spence + Jonny Ardavanis

Episode Date: October 16, 2024

In this episode, Mark Spence, VP of Living Waters, sits down with Jonny Ardavanis and discuss the topic of abortion. The main question one must ask regarding child in the womb is simple, yet profound - that being: What is it? As always, whenever we mention the evil of abortion, we always want to remind our listeners that Jesus’ mercy is greater than our sin and He can take our scarlet sin and make us “white as snow.”Watch VideosVisit the Website Buy Consider the LiliesFollow on Instagram

Hey folks, my name is Johnny Artavanis and this is Dial In. I want to thank those of you who have already purchased my recent book, Consider the Lilies, Finding Perfect Peace in the Character of God. This month is a particularly crazy month. You know, when I signed a contract to write the book over a year and a half ago, I didn't know providentially it would come out during election season with everything going on. And it is an uncertain time and there's a lot of people that are anxious and worried. And that's just the political component of it that may be separate from the different things that we're navigating personally in our own lives.

And so I do hope that book is a resource to you that would encourage you and comfort you and challenge you to fix your faith and exercise your gaze on the character of God. You can buy the book wherever books are sold and really grateful to see how the Lord is using it. Now, over the last week or so, you may have seen a clip of me online where I refer to the democratic agenda as a demonic death cult. I didn't realize when I said it that it would go viral in a true sense.

And I wasn't trying to be bombastic or soundbitey. I was trying to, as much as I could, call a spade a spade. Because the Democratic agenda is intent on their freedom to murder babies in the womb. And I think if you've grown up in the church, you may have, you know, we talk about abortion, but sometimes I think we may be doled to the evil of it. And I want to pause for a moment and say I'm mindful of the fact that there are people listening to this podcast, people that I minister to in my own congregation that have had abortions. And I always want to interject and say that the mercy of God is always greater than our former sin,

and He can cleanse us from any sin, and He's done that in my life, and He can do that in yours. But in this episode, I want to begin maybe a series over the next matter of weeks and months that talk about different things that are large in the political scheme, but really aren't political topics at all. They're biblical topics. They're theological topics. And the one that I want to focus on today is the topic of abortion. And I want to do that with my friend, Mark Spence. We recorded this months back, but the question regarding abortion that we all must ask is what is it? And there seems to be some disagreement there on what is the child within the womb. And

you're going to be blessed and I hope challenged as you consider really the egregiousness that is the slaughter of babies within the womb. Let's dial in. Mark, thank you once again for sitting down. I want to ask you about the topic of abortion, something that I know people that are believers that have had previous abortions. I also know it's one of the things that's rampant within our culture and our country that deeply grieves the heart of God. But I think in order to frame the conversation and to hear your kind of your

work on it, I wanted to ask you, what's the number one question that people need to ask when it comes to the topic of abortion? That would be, what is it? And let me explain. You know, imagine waking up early on a Saturday morning to your son calling out to you from the other room with a question. Daddy, daddy, can I kill it? Can I kill it? With no framework, no context as to what's happening, you'd respond back with, well, kill what? Yeah. If he responds with, it's a cockroach, daddy. Can I kill the cockroach? It's disgusting. It's crawling on my wall. As a father, you'd respond back with, absolutely, you know, back with, absolutely. You know, kill it. Clean it up before mama wakes up and don't show your sister Sally.

If on the other hand, he says, no, it is my sister Sally. Sally is it. Sally is driving me crazy. You'd wake up your spouse in a frenzy, wondering where things went south, call the pastor. We need intervention. So once we answer what it is, and then the other example with that is imagine if you were the owner of a demolition company and you've been paid to blow up a building. And right before you light, ignite that dynamite, you see some movement

in a window. You're not sure if it's the shadow of a bird that's flying overhead. Maybe it's the wind moving a curtain. Either way, you're not sure if the building is completely empty. Would you still blow up the building? Sure. Right. So we need to answer the question, what is it? So before we can decide what to do with what is inside the womb, let's define what it is. And for that, we first and foremost, we go to scripture, right? We are all created in the image of God. But there's also the sciences. It's the science of embryology and the science of biogenesis. Embryology, you are a distinct individual from the moment of fertilization. And the science of biogenesis, that each species brings forth after their own kind. That's just scripture, straight scripture.

And then the philosophy side of it is we believe that the taking of innocent human life is always wrong. Abortion is the taking of innocent human life. Therefore, abortion is always wrong. That's the syllogism that we kind of follow that follows Scripture. So people come along and say, well, it's just a fetus. Well, that's just Latin for a little child. In order to know what kind of a fetus it is, we look to the parents. You know, felines have fetuses.

Canines have fetuses. What are the parents? Human. Also, it's a human fetus. Remember, a fetus doesn't tell us what it is. It tells us when it is, what stage it is. It's like somebody coming along and saying, it's just a teenager. We can kill it.

No, it tells us when it is. It's just a clump of cells. Well, you're just a clump of cells, a bigger clump of cells. So it demonstrates that the argumentation that a pro-choice individual brings to the conversation has been weighed and the balances have been found lacking. So we answer all of their objections. And I don't know if you want to go through any of those objections, if the mother was raped or the world is overpopulated. Yeah, answer that question. That's when I get a lot like, what to go through any of those objections if the mother was raped or the world is overpopulated. Yeah, answer that question. That's when I get a lot like, what if in the situation of rape, is it okay to abort a baby?

How would you respond to that? Well, remember, once we answer the question what it is, if we say it's a human being, then we can't kill the baby. We don't punish a child for the crime of the father. What civilized society does that? Imagine if your mom comes to you and says, Johnny, I have a confession to make. You're actually the product of rape. Because any of us could actually be the product of rape. Our mothers just never told us. Father came home in a drunken rage, and she's just protecting. Would it be acceptable for mommy to kill a 30-year-old product of rape or a three-year-old product of rape? Absolutely not.

Well, they're not in the world yet. Well, they are in the world. They're just in a different location. There's a layer of tissue where you can't see them. An astronaut doesn't cease to be a human being because he's in outer space, right? They are here. So this is a difficult argument, a difficult question to answer, not because there's a difficult answer to it. The answer is actually very simple, right?

We don't punish a child for the crime of the father. But we also have to remember that rape and incest, and we'll throw in incest, is less than 1% of all pregnancies in the United States. So I ask my skeptic, my retractor, I say, if I'm willing to concede and say abortion should be legal in the cases of rape and incest, are you willing to ban all other abortion cases? To which they say no. And so then why bring it up? They're not interested. And let's not forget the fact that Norma McCorvey, who made famous with Roe v. Wade, the whole reason why it went to the U.S. Supreme Court is because she said she was raped,

when in reality she was never raped, and she confessed that later on. Yeah, wow. And I don't know if you've ever approached it from this perspective, Mark, but I think it's in Nancy Piercy's book, Total Truth. She talks about the dualism of people now will, I think she calls them bioethicists. Now, you know, they no longer try to disagree that it is, in fact, a person. It's a human being, but it's not a person. Yeah, a human being in the womb, but it's not a person.

And she calls that kind of like this top-bottom story dualism. Can you respond to that at all and kind of the misconceptions regarding that? Yeah. Willie Parker, I'm supposed to debate Willie Parker. He's performed probably 20,000 abortions, and that really is his argument. It's a human being, but it's not a person. And the thing that I'm going to simply ask is, what's the difference? What is the difference between a human being and a person? Because you're grasping for an argument at this point. You're hiding

behind your fig leaf, but in reality, you're open and you're bare. What is the distinguishing difference? Henry Blackmon, who presided over the case of Roe v. Wade, he said, if it can be determined that the preborn is a human being, then Roe v. Wade needs to be overturned by basis of the 14th Amendment. It protects that individual. So I would first wanna draw it out. What is the

difference between a human being and a person? And there really are only four differences between a pre-born and a newborn. I'll quickly go through them. We follow the acrostic SLED. We have the size. Well, of course the pre-born is smaller than the newborn, but it's precisely the size you had expected to be at that stage. I mean, Kevin Hart isn't less human than Dwayne The Rock Johnson because he's smaller than The Rock, right? Women are smaller than men typically. Do we say they're less human, right?

And then we have the level of development. They're less developed. Of course they're less developed. How can something the size of a dot be a human being? Well, why can't something the size of a dot be a human being? Well, why can't something the size of a dot be a human being? They're as developed as you would expect them to be. A six year old cannot give birth to a baby,

but they're as developed as you expect them to be. They're not less human than a 16 year old who perhaps can give birth. Then you have the environment. They're in a different location. We can't see them. Well, listen, you didn't cease being you because you were in a different location than We can't see them. Well, listen, you didn't cease being you because you were in a different location.

And we looked at the astronaut. Then finally the degree of dependency, which is, well, they're so dependent upon the mother. Well, of course they're dependent upon the mother. We get dependent upon a pilot to bring us to our destination just because we're dependent upon them. Or there's people that are hooked up to dialysis machines

or life-saving medicines, or there's people in comas because they were in a car accident. Do we pull the plug? Do we slap them around? Do we start cutting them up because they're dependent upon us? No civilized society looks down upon an individual who's dependent upon somebody else. We give them preferential treatment. Here, park closer to the store, the front of the front, the door. We'll give you better seating on a bus or on a, on a train. Yeah. We don't kill them. And those four differences are the only difference between a pre-born and a newborn. And there's no difference between a human being and a person. Yeah, no, it's so interesting. I think it's in that same

book where Nancy Piercy references kind of like this futuristic dystopian novel where it's your level of contribution to society that determines if you become a human being at that point. And in the book, it's 12 years old where 11-year-olds are running for their life. But it's funny because of the level of thinking that we have currently that wouldn't actually be far-fetched because even you said that sled argument, it's flawed at its core. Just lastly, as we close, from a pastoral perspective, how would you respond to someone that says, well, Mark, I've actually had an abortion or four of them. How would you respond to someone?

I don't think we are patient enough with people. Yeah. Right? I would tell that individual that it is impossible to move on, but you can move forward. When there's a death in the family, one of the most cruel things you can say is, have you moved on yet?

Or I can't believe you haven't moved on yet. You were only married for 20 years. You lost your child to leukemia? Well, move on. Move on. Move on. No, no, no, no. You'll never be able to move on with these scars that are part of you, but you can move forward in the right direction with answering the right questions, seeking the right help. Remember, I mean, the church is a hospital filled with sick people that really have linked arms saying, look, I'm no better than anybody else. I have had God change my heart and my will and my emotions. I desire to follow Him and to serve Him. And this is the beauty about being forgiven. There is no sin in your past that is bigger than your Savior. Your Redeemer is bigger than your past. Get to know Him. He who's forgiven much, loves much. And some of the greatest outspoken

individuals concerning abortion are those who've had an abortion and they figured out how to move forward with God's help. Well, Mark, that's so helpful in one, understanding what is it and therefore why is it wrong, but also how God responds in grace to those who maybe have had those experiences. So thank you so much for your input and wisdom in this regard. Yeah, you got it.