Dice Shame - 2-171 | 'Seeing Red'

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

On the way to the tower, the party uncovers a relic from the past..._______________________________________________________________________________________________________________Imagine your best game of D&D. The shocks, the twists and turns, the moments that can’t be caught because you just had to be there. That’s Dice Shame.Join our DM Jo, her husband Harlan, their brother Alex & their friends Nic & Timm as they experience those unmissable, gut-wrenching, heart-aching, joy-filled moments.This legendary AP releases a brand new episode every Thursday morning at 1:20 am!Content Warning: animal death, swearing, violence, claustrophobia Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We don't want the Broadway booing with the fire giants. Oh my God, put with it on a go. D'Meil, your body's the other way. I'm fearful that they've been overrun. Of course. Pulls out a cigarette. You mean in silvery movies. There you go.

Not that we'd know of. Well, let's not be hasty. Tell a whim. You know, a wild horse. What's going on? It couldn't have been that long ago because nothing's regrown. I love the idea that Doren's like using it like a stunt bike. You know what I mean?

Yeah. It's like jumping up and like... It's like a BELching on the wheels of the back wheels And like leading forward These goats are so much more nimble MVP MVP this week is Everyone who donated to Extra Life

This year's extra life one of our best, raising almost $15,000 for sick kids' hospitals. Thank you to everybody who joined us for all 24 hours, to our friends who played games alongside us, to the amazing people who donated and to all of the people out there who shared and supported in their various ways. We owe you everything. Thank you so much, everybody.

You are all this week's MVP. We'll see you again next year. All right, should we play some D&D? Yeah, let's do it. Woo! Having convinced Queen Tithmo and King Morin of Citadel Felbar to send forces out to protect Silvery Moon from the incoming fire giant forces, you are left to your own devices. General Chaoshammer has been unreachable from the Dwarven Citadel for some time, and the army

is worried about the safety of the tower and its garrison. You were given details about the exact location of the tower To the northwest from Citadel Falbar On the border of the moonwood Additionally, you've received intelligence About the location of the Meyer Devonad And its accompanying giant stewards What do you do now?

Well, I say we blow this underground popsicle Stan, what say you three? Four, sorry, Wimmy, you little. She elbows you on the side. I don't know about you before, but I'm very interested to get going and find my friend, Nergirl, and get him to safety, because I'm fearful that they've been overrun by giants, and although he can hold his own, it's not really fair. Yeah, yeah, I'm interested in seeing my friend Captain Chaos Hammer. He's my friend first.

So it sounds like we should go. So then, yes. Yeah, I just wanted to make it clear that I'm close to friends with Chaos Hammer and Doran is. I think that's important to lay out. If only one of us could say lift some rubble off of Chaos Hammer heroically, it would probably be me. If we make use of Chaos Hammer's forces, I think we certainly need to go save him immediately. And if there's any giants in the area, we don't want the Broadway viewing with the Fire Giants at the Vododont, certainly. Oh, that too.

Right, right. And if there's rubble, we want someone. Foxy to help lift it off of Chaos Ham. I just want to make that clear. I really, I really want to be in that guy's view. Doris just staring at Red. What? It's on my face.

Tamil's doing that thing where she's kind of like looking at everybody but starting to walk. You know, starting to like, she didn't even know where she's going, just going in a direction. So, yeah, yeah. Tamil, your body's the other way. Oh, oh, oh, right. Let's go. The tower where General Chaos Hammer has set up command is a day's ride from Citadel Felbar

and if you would like them, you are offered sturdy riding horses for the journey. Though, some of you may not need them. I would love a riding horse. Are they small? You mean like Dwarven size? Yes. Oh.

Yeah, you can have a dwarf-dorffy horse. Do you have regular-sized horses? I mean big horses? A dors? Well, I'm just thinking normally when we go to like human towns and elf towns and big people towns, they have big people horses and dwarves just have to suck it up and deal with it. But we're in a dwarven town. Are you hoping to like slightly inconvenience the rest of your party out of spite?

Well, I mean, if you want to put it like that. Yeah, everyone has to ride on. Horses that are just a little bit too small for them. Widdin's loving it. He's going into no mode, holding up the suit, and he's getting on, like, I'm actually wondering, there doesn't have to be, like,

riding goats or something like that, correct? Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, put it on a goat. Absolutely. Witted would take, practically speaking, the bad goat, well, not as dexterous over flatland in rocky scenarios,

such as the way we were going to, I trust it much more. Oh, man. Yeah, Doren sort of turns to Witted as he's getting on the goat. He's like, there you go. Isn't that kind of nice to have an animal our own size? And he sort of pats you on the butt area as you're getting up, glancing behind us at the toll.

Witted nods, but you also notice there's irony because, like, Witted and you are not exactly the same size. And, like, your goats are, like, the same kind of goat, but mine's definitely smaller than yours also. I have the pony equivalent of yours. Goat, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Aw.

That's too cute. But Doran doesn't say anything to correct it. No, no. Tamil, come on, Tamil do something, Red Pointer, his, like, small horse. Cast and lodge.

They must have something equivalent to a draft horse, right? Something bred for hauling, something a little larger? Right, right, right. Hey, you got like an ox or something? Mm-mm. What about a elephant? Like a you-people

elephant. You say elephant, we're going All right, all right, settle down. Not you people, but like you types. There's like the rest of the stables is mostly just ponies, but there's like a bigger stall towards the back of this stable. And like it's just a bigger pony. Like the pony is just like the big boy pony.

You know, kind of like... Chunky pony. The opposite of the run to the run. the litter? Is there such a thing? Yeah. The Chad of the litter? No. No, no, no.

It's, um, it's, it's the, it's the, the alpha? No, not the alpha. It's the character in Texas Chainsaw Massacre that we were just watching yesterday who's got, he's like the big boy. He's got like the curly hair. Yeah, he's the big boy. He's got big boyism. Yeah. The big boy maskers.

But pony version. But pony version. Anyway, he's back there. I'll take the Chad. All right. Joe, what are the options for the... I mean, if Tameel rides a pony, is it going to be as fast as everybody else?

All of these animals are exactly equal in terms of marching speed, like land speed. But I think if we were going to race them, we could roll for it to see we've got the fastest mount. Oh, yeah. I just want to make sure that Tamil's size, because she's a, she's a tall drink of water.

She sure is. Isn't going to make the pony move slower. These are stout motherfuckers. Amazing, great. They can handle you. She's going to squat on a pony. Yeah, I mean, they are built to carry dwarves that may have armor on. They carry heavy loads.

They are work animals. And they are built for riding. So you're going to manage. But like, she's going to look stupid. Well, you might be used to. mounting a horse that's, I don't know how big horses are, 16 hands high or whatever, where you have to kind of like get foot up on the stirrup and then like launch yourself over the saddle to get seated. These guys, you're just kind of like, hoop, and then you're on.

Yeah, like mounting a bike with one of the crossbars. Yeah. So Temeel like lifts her leg over the pony and now she's straddling it and then she kind of gingerly lowers herself down. And then once she can tell that yes, this is in fact a stout little pony that he's not going a break. She brings her knees into her chest and inserts her feet into the stirs. And she's like, all right. Red moses up beside you on his Chad pony. He's like, come on. What's yours named Temeel? My boy's called Chad. Oh, is that because he's such a big boy? Probably. Right, Chad? Chad goes, nay. Mine's named feathers. Oh, that's so nice. Is that because he's very, very light?

I don't know. That's just what the guy told me. Oh, Dwarven Feathers. That translates to... Never mind. You don't want to know. Red Rides forward. Seeing, like, the disparity

of how, like, we've all, like, picked our mounts and you've got, like, this almost a... Almost a necessarily big one, uh, with it just looks at Doren in particular and, like, nudges him and, like, points out, like, how comic... And just, like, rolls his eyes a little bit.

I'm not compensating. Wim has also absolutely selected. a mountain goat. That's amazing. For sure. Yeah. Yep. Hey, uh, wait it. What's your little goat called? Oh, and you see it hasn't occurred to him. He saw Wim come around on a mountain goat and that actually surprised him to see a

human so capably riding on one of the dwarven goats. He's thinking, oh, I learned, you know, from the dwarfs when I learned their language. And he's like, oh, uh, ooh, uh, I hadn't thought about it. He, like, has it clop forward. Um, uh, you feel like a G-off. Is that right? Are you a G-F? Giof, and he goes, should it just be Jeff? No, no, no, no, it's got to be Giof, Giof, let's go. And he just keeps scratching him under the chin and then, like, petting him on the fur between his horns.

Doren, who's your little guy? Doren whips around, like, on this really stout little horse, but he's got a lot more control that he does a big horse. And he's trying to show it off. So he's, like, you know, really making lots of moods. He says, oh, this one here, this is, oh, this wild one here was, of course, I'm going to name her Abigail. Because that's, you know, a wild horse. Oh, yeah, get it up, get you up. I think that's a goat.

I love the idea that Doran's, like, using it like a stunt bike. You know what I mean? Like, it's like jumping up and like, bouncing on the wheels and the back wheels and, like, leading forward. These goats are so much more nimble. seems to rev up, the goats revving up, and then speeds away. Come on up a girl. And he sort of tears up. Whim, like, pats the hair on her mountain goat.

It's like hanging down kind of in its face, like in a forelock, and she just signs Shadowblade at you guys. That's true. Shadowblade. Hear that, chatty? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Death whore. Shadowblade.

Dorn Serole rolls his eyes thinking That's not as cool as Abigail is Sorry, I do love this bit That he thinks Abigail's a name For like a bucking bronco And like I need every time this horse does something nuts You know Abigail It's very good

You get it, Tim, you get it exactly To Doran this is the coolest name He doesn't understand why you guys don't think the same way Oh, Red is happy. Chad is the one who thinks Chad's name is cooler. He just has like the hair over one eye and he's like, like whatever, I don't care type horse. Chad definitely lifts.

Yeah. Oh, of course. Protein shake. Yeah, he's like super built. He got into this. It's like he's not walking on hooves. He's like walking on knuckles. They feed him Dwarven mead every day.

Yeah. He's like a little buzzed. When we get to like a riverside, stop. He like throws me off and stands up and leans against a tree. Pulls out a cigarette. Yeah, exactly. Starts eating protein powder. Better be out here in another 30 minutes

or I'm leaving. Yeah, for me. I'm running the show. All right, well, let's go. You leave Citadel Falbar by way of the Roon Gate, passing through the hammer and the anvil. It's road with sheer cliff faces on either side descending

to meet the planes. With the face the mountain at your back. And with that, your party heads north and west along the Red Run River, whose banks are swollen with spring melt and churning white rapids in places. And you travel out to the moonwood, essentially. Been a while since we've got to just ride on horseback. Well, goat and ponyback. Have you ridden much there, uh, weird? Generally speaking, no

This is a unique experience I haven't ridden a mountain goat Since I was a kid if I'd be honest And frankly, this is a nice and somewhat refreshing experience The wind did by hair He's not moving very quickly Like there's no wind blowing his hair But he sort of shakes his head a little bit

And his hair's not long enough to blow It's just tough it's coming off his head It's something quite bracing about it frankly It gives old Bessie a rest and he taps the comically small backpack of metal on his back that is jangling in a very awkward and uncomfortable way, but he doesn't seem to mind it. When you were a kid, you mean in Silvery Moon,

you'd ride goats around Silvery Moon? No, no, I would go on vacations too. Not Citadel, Adbar, actually, the other Citadel. Oh! Not at the Citadel, but outside the Citadel. We had a vacation house around there. It's a long story, anyway. But I grew up learning Dwarvish and occasionally visiting Dwarven countries.

Oh. Wow, that's fascinating. Vacation house. This is the place that your parents owned, eh? Yes, and you see him go quiet. And then he realizes he's being a little awkward, and he just goes, but, but I'll say this. Bringing me to Dwarvish lads for the holidays was one of the greatest things that they ever

did for me because I remember the first day that I ever saw a dwarven artificer working on magical armor. And that day, well, that day changed my life. Whoa, that was someone from Ad Bar? Ah, yes, yes. We went into the forges that day and we got to see the craftsman. And generally speaking, I always had interested how the blacksmiths worked and always asked them a lot of questions about how the different processes happened. But it was seeing the magical armor get created. and seeing how everything sort of clicked together. It was like a puzzle. Wim signs at you.

Did you know from that day that that's what you wanted to do with the rest of your life? I don't know if that's the day that I knew that I would become the Nob I am today. But it is the day that I realized what armor could do. And that did set me on a path. I will admit that. She stares off at the landscape around her. And then she comes back to you. How old were you?

Oh, I was a wee lad. I was really oldy. I was early 40s. I couldn't have been earlier than my 40s. I was a baby, really. I hadn't even finished my second term of school. And he's using like NOMUS terminology of like three stages. Like they're talking about like some PhD track type thing.

And he's, I really, I, I, I didn't know a thing. I certainly had decided what my focus was going to be yet. So I did, I was expected to for at least a decade. So I didn't expect to find out that day. I never do I would discover it that quickly. And Wimso, just very casually signs, I think, When we're done here, man, when I saw the ocean, when we visited Waterdeep for the first time, she turns to Red and Doran.

She's like, did you guys remember that when we got to go down to the docks? I think I've decided that when we're done, adventuring, for the two years that I have left, I'm going to be a sailor. I'm going to become a pirate. Oh, yeah, Wimmy. That's a good call. That was wonderful. wait

wait why two years what do you mean two years left oh oh right I was always told that I would only live

to be 18 years old I think Timil pulls back on whatever rains or I don't know little like string she's holding onto this horse

by I had no idea who told you the dragon Witted turns to Dora did you know about this If he's overhearing this, he's like aghast at this. Uh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, of course. We, oh. Oh, I guess we forgot to mention. Oh, shoot. She shrugged. She's like, it's not a big deal. I am not going to tell you how to feel about your life or your fate, but, you know, are you certain that this is a certainty? Yes.

I think so. Oh, yeah, she's got two years, but that's only because we haven't found the person. that's going to stop it yet. And that's what we're going to be doing, Wim. As soon as we're done here, sure, you can be a sailor whatever you want, but that's after we find a way to break whatever the hell curse you've got. And if we don't, two years is still a lot of time. Well, it would be my pleasure to take you out on the seas. I think I still have some pull with the cruise that I sailed with. You're kidding, right? Not at all. She'll kind of like give a little heel kick to the pony and start off, but she'll also shoot a message to Red.

like to know more about this, but I don't want to bring it up if she doesn't want to talk about it. And if it's useful, I would like to help. I think Red will answer out loud. Oh, listen, Wimmy is a lot of things, and one of those is happy to talk about it. Tell her, Wim, I think to Miel's consent. She signs, my parents were dragon cultists, and I was a gift from the dragon. understood that my life was limited in this way. Before our wizard died, I roped him into finding out exactly what was going to happen,

because, well, you know, Doran is more of the sword and board type, and, you know, women and I will track down somebody. I think there's probably at least one wizard in Waterdeep. I don't know. And, I mean, who knows? When it was the wishing moon, you said that we would be friends forever. maybe we'll just never die. That's right!

Friends forever can't die, right, Dorn? It's true. Red turns to Witton and to me only just goes, you know, like a wishing moon. I'll say this, as soon as we're done dealing with these damn giants, I'm ready to get on a boat. I think that would be definitely a change of pace.

Whim's face just widens right up. Sailing buddies? And then she turns to everybody, sailing buddies, sailing buddies, sailing buddies, sailing buddies? Yeah, sailing buddy, for sure, for sure. When it kind of wintzes and goes, what was created with magic, any kind of prophecy, any kind of curse, any kind of binding can be undone with magic. I'm quite confident we just have to find the right kind. See, whimmy, when it can do it.

And we're better than on the open seas, I suppose. And you see him like kind of rubbing his forehead, like, we just need to find the right magic. That's all it takes. These things can't be not undone. This is all, it's just a matter of. of correct application of the right forces. You see him sort of rubbing his forehead like, uh, uh, it was the moment when she mentioned the dragon cult that he's like, oh, you're talking about some big time magic though.

Uh-oh. She just waves her hand, like she's erasing all of that. Like, don't even worry about it. Like, we have so many days before that's a problem. Yeah, like at least 20. Yeah, witty didn't have you ever heard that dragon turtles can grant wishes? Of course. No, wishing moon.

Demi doesn't know about the wishing moon. Silly. Don't worry, there'll be another one soon. There's all kinds of wondrous magic on the high seas. Of course, of course. You see, he's just thinking, like, damn it. Maybe it'll be a wishing moon tonight. Doren sort of quietly stands there looking around him thinking,

is there magic in the trees? And you see him reach out and touch a tree trunk. And then like almost shutter for a second as if it's going to electrocute him. and then he's like, touches the tree trunk and it's just a tree? Okay, not everything is magic. The edge of the moonwood is quiet and still. Sapplings grow up along the perimeter, and the forest seems to be in the business of accumulating more real estate,

using the spring rains to generate new growth and spreading out over the adjacent plains. There's no road here. You've been forced to pick your way along, the foothills and you have made your way to this forest of close grown oak and cedar and pine by just sort of letting your horses and goats wend their way between the trees, largely following the directions given to you by the dwarves and relying on Reds navigational skills, you make your way along the edge of the moonwood towards where you believe the tower stronghold lies.

this way you all have been here before yes which means you're not banned from this place is that right that's correct well let's not be hasty not yet correct to be old not yet

not that we know of red gets off of Chad and walks over to a tree and knocks it oh no we've been here before that's right yeah probably about 200 pecktres that way or 300 that way

all right Wait a minute This is the The moon wood Right Right right Right right Well here

Let's take five Red pulls Chad over to a tree And just throws his reins Around a branch And takes a drink From his canteen You do that cool thing Where it like wraps around

A couple times Yeah Yeah You hear we're to go cool Off screen In the background It's so cool Did you guys see that?

That was very cool Yep Yeah we were here A little bit of go Hey Timil Come over here I'll show you this. And Red just kind of walks off the path a little bit.

All right. Timiel will follow. How about here? Doran's like, all right, it's at this moment where we want to be most prepared. And he sort of stops and... Whim nods very seriously. He gets off his goat and, like, keeps to look out while Red and Timil go off to talk. Yeah, Red sort of steps aside as Timil approaches and just says, look, a few hours ago,

that whole whim stuff, I just want to talk to you about it. I'm, I try to play it cool around her because she seems to be very laissez-faire about it, which basically means she doesn't care. That's a direct translation. My friend Jack New French. Thank you. I am concerned, deathly afraid of losing her. She has it in her head that 18 is when it all stops.

We found her in a cage literally in a dragon's lair, and she's only with us because she wants to be. I need your help, and with its help. As soon as we have a moment, really, once this fire giant thing is done, to help figure out how the hell I can even start to pull at the thread that is saving her. She's so wonderful. She's such a spark of life. And I know that unless we have a concrete way, she's not going to believe it. Well, I am more than happy to help.

I'm quite taken with her. She reminds me a little of my sister. Yeah, she reminds me of my daughter. Oh, at that, I think Tamil will kind of take a pause, not really knowing how to respond, because I don't think that she fully grasps, like, Red's true feelings about the situation with his daughter, because he's also seemed a little bit kind of, like,

not dismissive, but, you know, more cavalier about talking about her than she would have expected. So I think that she'll say, Right. Well, I know that Witted must know wizards and others of magic, and I've encountered some of my travels, but none that could achieve that level of arcane power. But it would be a start. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. And that's, I guess I just, you know, it's an awkward thing to bring up. Oh, by the way, one of our companions is XYZ. And truth be told, you know, if the fire giants don't kill us, uh, She does have a bit of a clock on this thing. Two years is quite a bit of time, so it's not exactly pressing. I mean, we all have our little secrets, our little dark pasts and in such,

and they'll all come out in time, and I guess I just wanted you to know that I feel the same way, and I hope together we can help her. Well, we can definitely kick up some trouble trying. Hell's, yeah. Anyway, let's head back. Toward? Towards? Both work. We can never remember which one.

All right, let's go. As you make your way back to where Witted Doren and Wim have paused waiting for you, Red, you're passing through a copse of trees, and as you move, there's like a path that sort of resolves as you are walking by. You know, you have to hit like a certain point and then you sort of realize that there's this. swath of wrecked forest that you hadn't seen on your way out to where you and Tamil were speaking. There are these mowed down trees in a line. Oh! Oh, I have been here before. This is where the airship crashed. Oh, damn. Tamil, we lost a man around here. He died, a party member. He was resurrected by a cursed shield, but we fought this gigantic creature this monstrous shadow creature we need to be careful around here

doran will surely remember as well yeah it's at that moment that doran and and witted and whim sort of like walk up and meet you where you are and uh dorin sees the uh wrecked forest and and this downed airship and and it all comes flooding back and especially the part that runs through Doran's mind about how, how could someone die so many times, you know? And that's sort of where he started to maybe appreciate the darker sides of magic, watching his friend Krayloff die and be revived by his shield. Wow, it's, uh, and he sort of like glances out over at all the wrecked forest. It's, uh, it's amazing how, how long ago it seems.

And yet, uh, it couldn't have been that. long ago because nothing's regrown. Whim signs, what are you talking about? We had an airship, everyone. It was a gift from a dragon. We made it

to the eye of the world and spoke with Anam All-Father. I'm sure, Timil, you would have done the same had your party made it out of iron slag. It was in order to sort of find out what our next quest was,

We needed to recover some items from some burial mounds that were around here, and, well, the airship allowed us to move between them, but it was attacked by a creature that I have no knowledge of and nor have seen anything like since. It was massive. Black skin, huge talons on its claw-like hands, its head. almost angular, like a triangle, very thin, slender, tall. At first we thought it was just part of the trees, perhaps burnt trunks. But it made quick work of almost everybody and destroyed, destroyed the ship. Red, did the creature appear before or after you retrieve the items from the burial mounds? Red sort of turns away, almost like nervous. to tell you. It wasn't like anything I had seen before. That's not true. It was around here in the

north. We came to a party and there were these creatures, these shadowy figures, whips of black smoke hung from their skin. Some were small, imp-like, some were larger, grotesque. It was like that. and none of the burial mounds had anything like that it wasn't as if retribution or or anger or hunting it it was almost as if we just crossed its path like we caught it on a bad day something up here and red looks to the woods something up here is wrong this hunger in the north We saw it, Dawn. Remember, we saw it. We went through a few small towns a few months ago,

and there's something taking people up here. Something vicious, something cunning, something conniving. It seems to, and Red almost like rambles a little bit, sort of turns around and snaps back, and you see those, like, sweat coming down his head, and his eyes are a little dilated, and then he sort of shakes his head. It just, it feels,

It's odd up here. You said that Red was, like, his pupils were dilated and he was, like, covered in sweat. Yeah. Can I do, like, an inside check to see if there's something? Oh, okay. Well. Let me ask the DM, shall I, Joe? Can I?

Yeah, let's roll contested versus Red's deception. What's your deception? The deceptive red-handed Robin. He's a pretty charisma boy. Yeah. Yeah, deception's not heavy, though. It's plus three. It's like people who are flexing

to see how strong the other people are but you're just like giving him the eyeball to take. Ten. Well, I have a plus 11 to my inside and I rolled an 18 so I got a 29. You do be like that. Nice. That's good. What's going on?

So you drain the knowledge out of Red's head of all secrets. Vampyric. As you stare at this Tabaxi who until very recently was a total stranger to you. You see his history laid bare,

and you understand that there is so much that he is hiding underneath this playful facade. As you look deeply into his feline eyes, you catch almost a reflection, a glittering hint of something moving behind his iris, some strange reflection of light. And then it's almost like you're transported to a scene in the snow. You see Red's ferocious, bloodthirsty face pounce at you in the darkness,

and stab you through the neck over and over and over. And then we pull back at the realization. We should probably keep moving. It's just a chill in the air, you know? Don't want to get cold. All right, it's time again to thank our valued Patreon supporters. Except I've got blood all over my notes. All right, there, okay, thank you to Lita J, Christopher, Colin Burkhart, Merlin, Adam Frey, J.D., Liz, Ruth Ann Reed, Marix Moon, Lorelei Feldman, Scotty, Haley, Joshua Nance, Cass, Nicky, Shannon Waldner, Sray 96, Moon, Miss

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Don't Patrick Lose Me, Dark Cry 101, The One and Only Nabok, Otter Biscuits, Dead Begets, Trixie, and Caitlin Hengavelle. Thanks very much for listening, and we'll see you around the battle ring. I'm based on that. I got this, I'm a pro. Ready? Watch this. She'll beat the shit out of this podium. Yeah, well, I didn't want to call it Reds Rovers, okay? I figured we all would have made it. The name just stuck because I seemed to be the only one that hasn't died yet.

After that, it'll be called something else, I'm sure. Doran's draft boys? Well, we can workshop that.