Dig It with Jo Whiley and Zoe Ball - 35: DIG IN: Menopause Special with Dr Naomi Potter

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

Jo and Zoe are joined by menopause specialist Dr Naomi Potter for a no-nonsense, warm and wonderfully honest chat about everything from HRT and hormones to vaginal health, sex, and self-confidence. MORE FROM DR NAOMI POTTER: Menopause Care Clinic – https://www.menopausecare.co.uk Follow Naomi on Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/dr_naomipotter/ Listen to her podcast Is It Hot In Here? – https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/is-it-hot-in-here-menopause-podcast/id1796180469  Follow the podcast on Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/podcast_naomipotter/?hl=en GET IN TOUCH 📧 Email us: [e-mail] 📱 Text or Voice Note: 07477 038795 💬 Or tap here to send a voice note or message on WhatsApp:⁠ ⁠https://wa.me/447477038795⁠⁠ SPECIAL THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS This episode is brought to you by QVC  ✨QVC - Click below to discover QVC’s range of menopause products and support. And don’t forget to use the code QDIG10 for £10 off your first purchase (minimum spends apply, see QVC website for full terms and conditions) -   https://www.qvcuk.com/content/menopause-your-way.html?cid=PR-PR-Digit&e22=Digit CREDITS Exec Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan Assistant Producer: Eve Jones Technical Producer: Oliver Geraghty Video Editors: Danny Pape and Jack Whiteside Dig It is a Persephonica production

Coming up on Digit, I honestly felt like I was going mad because I was having all these symptoms and I just didn't believe. And I was doing HRT and I was thinking, I'm just not getting any better. So you really can't overdose with it. You really, you really can't. So would you have sex if you've just got a pestery and how would that affect the man? You're just better off waiting. You don't want to end up giving someone some kind of mouth condition.

No. You've got to ask these questions. You do, no, you do. They're important. All of that right after. this. This episode of Digit is sponsored by QVC. Zoe, do you ever feel like this time of year just flies by?

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free of charge. But MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming, Ontario. Welcome to Digin and it's a menopause special. Today we are joined by Dr. Naomi Potter. Naomi is one of the UK's leading menopause specialists, a British menopause society, accredited doctor, founder of the clinic menopause care, and co-author of the best-selling book, Menopauseing, which she wrote with the fabulous Davina McCall. Her clinic menopause care takes a really personal approach, looking not just at HRT and medication, but at lifestyle, mindset and the emotional side of menopause too. She also hosts the brilliant podcast. is it hot in here where she talks with women like Dame Kelly Holmes, Lisa Snowden and Nagamanchetti about what really happens during midlife. So welcome to dig it, Dr Naomi. It's lovely to be here talking to you both.

We are so thrilled and it's like being on a Zoom with a rock star right now. I don't know that. Thank you so much for having me. The impact that you've made on so many people's lives cannot be understated. Honestly, you are very, very important. I've been telling all my friends to make sure they listen to this episode because they're going to learn so much. So this is where we've had lots and lots and lots of questions from all our diggers and they are all so personal, but they're things that they really, really need to know and you've got the answers. So thank you very much indeed for being with us.

We've got so many questions. So should we crack on with the very first one? And this is from Karen. We've got a voice note from Karen. Hi, Karen. I'm 56 and I consider myself to be extremely lucky that I haven't experienced awful menopausal symptoms that some people go through. But my question is, should all women, postmenopause or be on estrogen? My daughter's training to be a doctor.

She did a Guine residency and the staff there told her that, in their opinion, all women should be. I approached my GP and they weren't having any of it. They would not prescribe it to me at all. And I understand that it can protect your heart and your bones. So, yeah, just for the reference, I just wondered what your menopause expert's opinion would be. Keep it up, girls. Thank you very much. Love you. Bye. Oh, love you too, Karen. Thanks, Karen. That's a great question. It's a brilliant question. And I think it kind of exemplifies what's going on at the moment in terms of the kind of menopause world.

So what I always say to everybody is that menopause care should be completely individualised. You can't make a broad statement like every woman should be on HRT or no women should be on HRT. it is all about the individual. Using HRT can bring massive benefits, but it also brings risk of side effects and a potential, a small risk, but there is small risk associated with using it, which is why every woman should have a thorough discussion

with somebody that really understands menopause and HRT and that individual to be able to come up with an answer for them. And that answer might not always say the same. You might say, you might decide on a yes, and then you might try it and something might change and then you might decide actually, no, it's not for me. At the moment, the current guidance is not that every menopausal woman should be on HRT. We are not saying that at the moment.

Whether we do in the future, I think, who knows, it will depend on so much research and data and it would literally be having a crystal ball. But there are definitely advantages to being on it for women who even, if they, even those who don't have really debilitating symptoms, but it's so individual. And for a lot of women, it can be a lot of hassle, like they're pressurised into going by their mates and it's like, you know, to join the HRT club and they go and they get bleeding and they get side effects and just like, oh God, why did I even bother? But for others, it's life transforming. So it's just an individual thing. And there's so much confusion, I think, and we need

clarity about which HRT suits, which person, what the different types of things that you can use are. I think all of this is going to be covered in the notes and the questions that we have coming up from our lovely diggers. So I'm not going to ask any questions. We're going to go to another question from one of our listeners now. So this question is from Jackie and it says, I've been using HRT for about five years now and it's been brilliant, making me feel normal again after a torturous few years following a surgical menopause. I use estrogen and testosterone gels and vaginal estrogen. I'm finding it hard, very hard to pin down my GP on whether or not I should stay on HRT or whether it's time to stop. I'm 66 now, so irrespective of surgical or normal menopause, I'm well through it all.

But the information I can find seems very woolly about whether it's okay to carry on taking HRT and when is a good time to stop. And it's another brilliant question, and it's one that we hear a fair amount. We don't have data for women taking the modern types of HRT for decades and decades. So we don't have women in their 90s now who've been on HRT for 30 or 40 years. We will get that data because I suspect as time goes on, like this cohort of women will stay on it for longer as they feel the benefits and they see the benefits for being on it. But like I said in the last answer, really, it's very individual. So if you are somebody that is noticing the benefits from being on their HRT, you're enjoying being on it and you want to stay on it. And you have a discussion with your doctor every year with the balance of risks and benefits for staying on it versus the.

the risk and benefit of coming off it, then you decide what's right for you, along with the guidance from somebody that knows and understands how HRT can help women. We have women in my clinic who are 66 and still on it and intend to stay on it. And we have other women who are 66 and they decide they want to try to come off it or they try to reduce it. And everything's okay. It's all okay. It's just what is right for that individual. Brilliant. And what do people experience when they do stop. And again, I know it will be individual. It will range from woman to woman. But what can people expect when they stop? So if you stop suddenly, you can have a resurgence of your symptoms. So if you had hot flashes and night sweats before, then you may well

have hot flushes and night sweats afterwards. And they, after stopping, and they may come back quickly or they may come back slowly or they may not come back at all. You may notice symptoms that you didn't notice before or you may notice nothing. It's so highly variable. Some women do find, though, that the turbulence of perimenopause is when some women need a higher dose. And then when you're in the stability of being postmenopausal, because you're not really producing your own hormones anymore, that you can then reduce your dose. And some women are more comfortable being on that lower dose. It's so individual. The menopause doesn't follow any rule book. I know this is what I found with my friends

I've seen a number of my girlfriends over the past few days and every single one of them A, like the more you experience these things and the more open we are, everyone just divulges all their symptoms all the time and we're discussing things that we would never have done 10, 15, 20 years ago but then also everybody's symptoms are different and so they're talking about hot flushes

I've never had a hot flush in my life but have had other symptoms which they haven't had either it's just so bizarre, so extraordinary and that they change They said they change. Yeah. I've got a fabulous doctor and he takes my bloods every few months, you know. But he says even then, you know, I could take your bloods this week and your bloods next week might be really different because your hormones and naturally going up and down.

I don't know whether, but at the moment I very much feel I'll stay on this great stuff as long as possible if it makes me happy and if it makes, if it keeps me sane and if my kids are like, oh, mom, you just seem quite chill these days. because and I've spoken to older women who've said oh I've just stayed on it and it's been great but then people have come off it and been fine I guess really then what we're saying is it'll be a bit of a trial and error thing and then perhaps you can give it a go I'm sure if I tried to sort of come off it at some point and certain symptoms came back and maybe it'd keep a low dose but I guess you've got to be willing to try these things and give it the time that it needs totally because even when you start taking it's it does take time, doesn't it, to settle?

Totally. It is trial and error. And we have some patients that get a bit frustrated because they're like, well, we've come to see you. You're the expert. You should be able to tell me today what I need forevermore. Yeah. And they're disappointed because it's just not like that. We can't do a blood test and then decide that this is the dose that you need. We can't do a blood test or a scan and be like, well, this is how you're going to respond to it. There are clues from the history as to how somebody may respond to something or how you know how you would start somebody on HRT but it's an art it is not a science I've gone through yes all of the things in the in the beginning it was patches that I tried and and I just didn't got on with those I didn't

like the like the residue that you had and I don't I just didn't feel it was very effective and then I moved on to gels and again I just felt quite slimy and I was putting so much on I wasn't sure how much I was putting on I found it quite confusing so I'm not very good at taking medicine at best of times. And I've moved on to the spray, which I've found the easiest thing for me because it dries very quickly. It's just a couple of pumps every day. I remember to do it. It's, I just put it in my makeup drawer. And it's the one that's worked, I think, emotionally and physically the best on me, but everybody is different. Everyone is different. Everyone's different. Yeah. I have lots of friends who love the patch, friends who like the spray. I like the gel.

I put it on this arm. Sometimes I swap it onto that arm. I sort of chase everyone around the house. They're like, oh, she's got a jelly on. She's got a jelly on. Because I've always think, all right, you're going to be all right. Nothing's going to happen to you if you get this jelly on you. If that, it may change you for the better. But I find, you know, that works for me really well at the moment. So you, because I've had friends say, oh, try the spray. It's better.

It's better. I'm like, no, I'm happy. And I think when you find the thing that suits you and makes you happy, stick with it for a bit. And as long as it works, I know that can then change. When it comes to women, how do you, how do you, when they're beginning it from the, right from the off, what do you go for first that you would prescribe? to them. How does it work? I discuss each type with them and show them. And they often have just a feeling of what they would prefer. So if you've got somebody who you think is going to be hormone sensitive, then the gel is great because you can give a tiny dose. It's because you know

the way that the pump dispenser works. You can give like even a quarter of a dose to start. So anybody that's worried about using HRT or is hormone sensitive, I would tend to start with that. forget for women, especially if they've got a coil, so they haven't got to remember, if they've got a moraine or something, haven't got to remember an additional medication. Perhaps it can be quite useful because they only have to remember that twice a week rather than every day. And women who just don't fancy anything stuck to them and they don't like the potential of the gel, then the spray. And they almost always, they have a preference. But it's, yeah, trial and error and patient preference.

If you're loving diggits, then hit subscribe or follow. That way, brand new episodes just come direct to your phone. It is that easy. Okay, so we're doing basics here, and I really genuinely don't understand this myself. But when we have a blood test, when we go and have a blood test, like Zoe just mentioned, what is the blood test? What are people asking for and what are you looking for with the blood test to check hormone levels? So it depends on the scenario.

If you have somebody who is coming to see you for the first time, And if they have symptoms that are not kind of barn door menopause and you want to exclude other causes, then there's a channel of bloods that we would do, particularly on younger women. So if they're under 45, then you would look at things like full blood count, how your kidney's working, how your liver's working, what your vitamin D status is, what your thyroid's doing, and some of your vitamins at B12 and folate. and we would often do a hormone panel as well. There's a hormone called FSAH, which is follicle stimulating hormone, which is a hormone that your brain pumps out to kick your ovaries into life.

So if you've got happy functioning ovaries, they don't need much of a push to get going. So your FSAH will be lower. If you've got ovaries that need a big old kick up the bum to getting working, then your FSAH is going to be higher. And so it gives you an idea about how well ovaries are functioning. But it's a very inexact science. It's an inexact blood test.

So you can have women who are definitely, well, postmenopausal, who have normal FSAHs and women who are still having regular cycles who have high FSAHs and it varies. So it's just part of a picture. And we also look at eustradial levels, but they vary massively throughout a cycle, particularly in perimenopause. So you can have somebody who has a high estrogen. So over 2000, and someone could incorrectly reassure a woman that their ovaries are working,

normally in that their symptoms are not due to hormones when actually it could be, and vice versa, you can have a woman in it, having a normal cycle, and their levels will be low. We also look at testosterone, but that tends to be for women who are kind of further down the track, who I'm already on H.R.T. And then if you have somebody who's coming back to you on HART and you're wanting to know whether they're absorbing it, you would just do the basic panel.

So you do an estradiol, a testosterone, and something called sex hormone binding blood limb. And so if you've got a woman who is on a good estrogen dose, but they are still symptomatic, it can be reassuring if you can see that their levels are low because it means that they're probably not absorbing. And the same with testosterone. So you've got somebody adequately replaced on estrogen.

You're thinking about adding testosterone in. You want to check to see that their testosterone is low. Or if they're already on a testosterone replacement, are they now within the male physiological range or not overdosing or not getting enough? Right. Sorry, that was a lot. No, that was good. To a short question.

No, it's like being in the class and paying attention. It's really interesting. we've got a question from Jeanette and she says what are the benefits of vaginal estrogen and can you use it alongside having the coil and also using HRT gel? Is it a separate thing for a separate set of issues? When does it go in and how often does it improve your sex life? Jeanette, it's a great question and there's a lot of questions within a question which we all have. Naomi, what have you got for us?

It's a brilliant question. Viginal estrogen is amazing. The only downside to it is it's not massively glamorous to use. That really is the only downside. So some women just find it a bit of a hassle, a bit of a like, oh, God, can't really be asked with that. But otherwise, it's a terrific product. So it comes in various forms. So you can have it in a pessary with an applicator, a pessary without an applicator.

It comes in a gel, in a cream, in a ring. So there's all sorts of ways that you can introduce this wonderful product. And it works locally. So basically, even if you're on systemic HRT, so the gel, the patch, the spray or oral, HRT, sometimes that's not enough for those local tissues. And so it's a way of giving the vagina, vulva and the whole urinary tract an extra little boost because all of those tissues love estrogen. they work best when there is estrogen around.

It's an undisputed fact that they work better with estrogen around. And it's just a very safe way of re-estrogenising that whole area. So it can be brilliant at helping with urinary symptoms of menopause, whether that's going more often getting urinary tract infections, leakage, urgency. It can help with vaginal symptoms. So sawness, dryness, discharge, pain during sex, itch. It can literally be life-saving. women who get recurrent urinary tract infections.

There is an associated mortality with that. And it can really just stop those UTIs in their track. So it's a brilliant product. Next, we'll take a quick break for some ads. If you'd like these episodes ad-free, then why not become a member of the Potting Shed? You'll get longer episodes, bonus content, and most importantly, you'll be supporting the show.

For details on how to join, Check out the show notes. Do you use, if you're using the pessary, then do you use gel as well? Do you use creams as well? Because they all target different little bits, don't they, of your body? Of your, yeah, your bits down there. So you can do. It really, again, it's back to kind of individual care.

So some women will find that a pessery is enough. Some women like to use a pestry internally and a cream. externally. Some women find that they can just get away with using the cream. It's different for everybody. Some women don't like the pestery because it leaves them with a kind of waxy discharge the next day. Some women don't like using the applicators. Applicators are not brilliant for the environment. You can use them in combination. And what kind of doses? People would worry about using too much. And also, can you give us some names of the things that people should be looking for? So you really can't overdose with it. You really, you really can't. You're

absorption is so minimal. Your systemic absorption is so minimal. I don't know whether anybody's done any trials looking to see how much you can get away with using before it puts your systemic levels up to a level that systemic HRT would achieve. But I just don't think there'd be enough hours in the day, to be honest. And you wouldn't need to use that amount. A typical, So there are, the Pessori-Wise, there's products called Vagyfem, Vagirux, and Imvagis. And there's an eustriol cream. And there's a new product called Intra Rosa, which actually, it's been out a couple of years. But it's not as well known about, it's a slightly different hormone that's basically metabolized

within the cells to give local estrogen and local testosterone. Any of those products should be available on the NHS. and dosage-wise for the peceries and the creams, a standard starting dose would give you three weeks worth of using it daily and then dropping down to using twice weekly. But you can use more under the guidance of your own doctor if you feel that you need a bit more. I normally use the analogy of your flower beds

if you go away for two weeks in the summer. When you get back, you need to do a lot of watering to get that flower bed rehydrated. But then even if the weather stays the same, you don't need to give that massive rehydration when you're home. You can just water it twice a week, three times a week, depending on how hot it is. But you probably... Really appreciating the gardening analogy.

That's great. You should be able to gauge how much watering it needs. And you can get these over the counter or you need to go to a GP. You can get them over the counter. There's a product called... We never know whether you pronounce it GINA or Gina. They're names of all these things. They're never named very well these things, are they?

They're like, oh, God, I wish they came up with Ben and Ayes with them. When you have to ask for them over the counter. We'll go with Gina. You can buy that over the counter if you're postmenopausal and over 50, I think. That's the rules. But otherwise, they're a prescription-only medicine. But they should be easy to get from your GP. This is a sex-related question here.

And I guess we can refer to the flower bed again. Just like if a man's going to perform oral sex on a woman, should there be a time? Should you stop using it for a day before? Because I'm just thinking I would be a bit worried thinking, is that going to taste strange? Is that something that a man would not want in his mouth or a woman, whoever your partner is, in that area?

Because it's all, yeah, is it safe? Is it safe for your partner? No, it's a really good question, and it's a question that a lot of people don't have the courage to ask, but they want to know the answer to. So ideally, you wouldn't insert a pessory or apply your cream and then have somebody before or sex on you straight afterwards. It's not ideal, and you probably shouldn't do it repeatedly. But if it happens on occasion, then it would be negligible, you know, just, you know, I just wouldn't even worry about it. So it's something to think about timings-wise, like you're probably better off to do that and then apply your cream before going to bed. You normally apply these things at night anyway because literally the gravity effect.

Like if you're going to put a pestery in, it's your best to do it literally just before you go to bed. So would you have sex if you've just put a pestery in, how would that affect the man? The likelihood is it would just wouldn't affect the man at all and it would just wash out the pestery. Totally safe, yeah. Yeah, so you're just better off waiting. I know what men can react like around gel on your arm. And I'm thinking, is it a taste thing? Or if it's something that you probably wouldn't want it in your mouth.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you wouldn't. You don't want to end up giving someone some kind of mouth condition. No. You've got to ask these questions. You do. They do. You do.

I mean, in the same way, as like, if you were to put your face cream on before you go to bed, you probably wouldn't want somebody kind of nuzzling. and sucking the cream off your face. Like, I don't know. Yeah. Oh, it's good. This is good. But the estrogen doesn't affect the man.

Like, if you have penitative sex, then it doesn't affect the man in any way. You would have to do it an awful lot for them to absorb a worrying amount. Yeah. So, like, one off or on occasion. On occasion, I wouldn't worry. And if it was something that was going to happen repeatedly, I would choose to avoid and just time your application. So timing could be good. This is a problem, isn't it?

You never know when you're going to be lucky enough to get sex sometimes. Sometimes you're like, oh, great. I wasn't expecting that. But sometimes it's good to know in advance and think, yeah, I won't use that right now because things are looking hopeful. Yeah. Okay. And using them afterwards probably better if you can plan it. Yeah.

But it's not going to cause major harm if there's an incident. Okay. This is good. This is good to know. I think this is such a big subject, though. It's because people can be thoroughly miserable. I mean, I was affected by this. for years and years and years and went back to the doctors millions of times and just

I honestly felt like I was going mad because I was having all these symptoms and I just didn't believe and I was doing HRT and I was thinking I'm just not getting any better. This is just awful. I want to go to the toilet all the time but then I can't go when I try. And it was yeah, it was really affecting my happiness and my mental state and then eventually vaginal estrogen comes along and you're like, oh actually it helps. It really does. And so I'm really passionate about making other women know that if you're feeling really rubbish, there are solutions which you've been very vocal about Naomi. So I think it's really important that we talk about these things

because it can be horrible for people. It really can. Yeah, UTIs and all that, yeah. And sitting down, like someone just can't sit down. And that's horrible. I mean, it's just horrible. Because there's swelling and everything, yeah. They're not always easy things to bring up with your doctor.

I mean, I've never been that shy. And I've, you know, my doctor's often like, would you like a lady doctor to come in to do your smear test? And I'm like, no, come on, fine. But for some women, it is really difficult. to bring these subjects up and you're hoping you've got a doctor who can handle that conversation with you quite delicately or can see that you're struggling to talk about it or you're a bit shy and you sort of between the two of you want to be able to ask these things

so I think the more we talk about it the more women say yeah go on then yeah I'll just go in I'll go in and I'll ask I'll ask all the right questions the V word the vulva word like people never ever said that word it was just such an awful word to say and I think the more But it's like reclaiming things, isn't it? The more you say it, the less offensive it becomes. And it's actually something that does get very much affected by menopause. And, yeah, just talking about it offers solutions. We find out solutions for people.

It's great to know there are solutions as well, aren't they? When you're suffering, this is good. Question from Anita next. What are your thoughts on bio-identical hormones, body-identical hormones as an alternative to HRT, please? I'm cautious about using HRT, and I would like as natural. and approach as possible. As a therapist, I encourage my own clients to try to reframe their ideas of the menopause, as so many of us consider the losses. But what we're going towards, rather than leaving behind, do all three of you have ideas on where you are going towards or what

you're going towards? The lovely question, because so often it is framed as something like awful and negative and with kind of just a bleak future. And it should change. And I totally, I hear her on that debt. And that should definitely. change. So the terminology of bioidentical and body identical probably came about because in the early 2000s, when there was a lot of data published that suggested there was a strong link between using the HRT that was around then, so oral HRT with synthetic progestogens. And it was suggested that that contributed towards an increased risk of breast cancer and strokes and heart disease. And so everybody kind of came off it overnight and it was considered a risky thing to

do, there was a movement that came about in the US that used natural products, so natural estrogen, natural progesterone as a way of bypassing risk and still replacing hormones. And that became the kind of bioidentical movement. And when there wasn't really a lot of choice, it became something that women could turn to. And they were kind of reassured by the fact that it was natural and lower risk. What we have nowadays, is regulated bioidentical, which is body identical. So you don't have to go to special pharmacies who will create something for you

that's not necessarily regulated. You can get the natural hormones that goes through your skin in the form of the patches, sprays and gel. So that is body identical. And you can use a body identical progesterone called eutrogestan or depretics.

We never really know how to pronounce that one either. And these are all available from your GP. So, and they are as natural as the bioidentical movement. So it's the same, they use the same base, the same hormones. There is nothing more natural about bioidentical than the body identical. But the body identical is now kind of freely available, which is great. So that's the subtle difference. So you can go online and look out for and search for bioidentical clinics, but actually

they don't really provide anything different. to what we can provide safely in a regulated form nowadays. It's interesting that question about sort of where are we going with it. It's interesting to know, is that you don't really know how long we'll stay on it because I guess we've just got to go through it and see, but there is such a relief when you find a thing that is making a difference to you and you find a bit of calm and you're not going up and down or worrying about things. And often the thing with menopause is or perimenopause,

you sort of deal with some symptoms and then something else comes. And you think, oh, I've not had that before, but now I've got that. And so I guess it's just a sort of, it's a journey. And I think this is the thing. This is why it's important for us all to have these conversations, that it shouldn't be scary and overwhelming and terrifying because it can be a really tough time in a woman's life. And it's like us girls talking about it more and more and more.

And also talking about it with the men in our lives as well, our sons and our partners and other dads, you know, I've had quite a lot of men come up to me who say, thank you for talking about the menopause, because actually I didn't really. understand it and it's really hard to know what my wife's going through and you have a bit more of an understanding of it because it is something that's going to happen to all of us girls and it does affect the men in our life as well. So it's good to have these chats. It's a proper fact of life, isn't it? It's an open conversation constantly in our house. I've got two daughters and I've got two sons, my husband and we just all, yeah, we just generally have this

conversation all the time. They're totally aware of what we're all going through as girls when it comes through our hormones and that's incredibly important. Yeah, and hopefully each generation, there'll be more and more understanding and it will be so much more accepted and definitely not a taboo subject and people will feel more comfortable being able to go to their doctors and ask for what they need because it's a it's a conversation everyone has hopefully and Anita's talking there about what are we going towards Naomi? I mean what are the what are the hopes of where we're taking our menopause journey

and the conversations around it and I think that it can be very liberating because it can coincide with other kind of liberating events, can't it? You know, your kids leaving home, having the confidence to do things at work that you wouldn't have necessarily had before, freedom from contraception, freedom, like, to be just you and not have lots of extensions of you or people needing more of you and just kind of having confidence in who you are and kind of what you've become. But I think it's important to kind of embrace, like, everyone and be, and be,

non-judgmental of everybody, because there are some women where no matter what positivity or yoga or whatever they are going to do, they are not going to feel right without HRT. But equally, you know, you've got a flip side of that and that HRT is not going to cure all and you've got to, you know, you've got to look at absolutely everything else in your life to be complete and fulfilled. And so it's a hard one. But I think like being non-judgmental about how anybody tackles their own menopause is really important. We see so much of that now with kind of, yeah, I'm right,

you're wrong. Nobody's, nobody's right. Nobody's wrong. It's just their own experience of how they want to be. I'm very grateful to have lived through this. What I feel like is a, has been a menopause revolution. So when I first began my experience of it, there weren't many conversations going on. There were only a few people who were out there fighting the fight, talking about it. And it's just grown and grown and grown. There's a menopause mandate. There's all all the work that people like yourself Naomi has done and Davina and Mariela and countless other people who were just getting the conversation out there, getting everybody to talk about how they're feeling. And, you know, and it's been a very, very confusing time. And initially it was all

about the psychological side of how I was feeling personally when it came to the menopause and just the vulnerability and the mind fog that goes on. And that was like my focus. They were the symptoms that I was feeling. And then the physical symptoms came along a little bit later. on. And now I feel like I'm further on. I'm, you know, just serve a 60. No, I'm not. I'm just 60. I'm not going to age myself. But I've got younger friends, a lot of younger female friends who I can see having their own issues at the moment. And it's really lovely for me to be able to have conversations with them and not to say, this is what you must do, but just to say, well, you could try this. If this might help, then maybe, you know, that could be of use and why don't

you follow this person on Instagram. And it's just really lovely that this whole community has grown up and there are lots of realizing we're in this together and we can support and help each other. And that has been an amazing thing to be part of and to continue to be part of going forwards. Yeah, it's definitely a different place to even, even three years ago, really, isn't it? Oh my God, yeah. Five or eight or ten years ago. It's amazing. I remember going to the doctors and just being so not having the vocabulary and not knowing what was going on and not having the confidence to talk about how I was feeling. And the poor doctors were trying their very best, but I think it was me because I wasn't informed.

I just couldn't take on board what they were saying to me. Whereas now there is so much information out there. There are so many people, it's power. It knowledge is power. So when you go to see your GP, if you have an inkling of what's going on and you've got some suggestions and you've got some knowledge, then you can have a better conversation with your GP. But you can't have known.

No. You can't have known because you, you know, you weren't taught about it at school and nobody knew about it. So. Yeah. I think I was prescribed VagioFM like 10 years ago or something by a doctor, they just kept saying vaginal dryness, vaginal dryness. And I was like, no, no, because it felt like something from the 70s that you read about in books. I'm like, no, that is not what

I have going on. And I think that phrase needs to be reframed. But it's just such a negative phrase with awful connotations. And it's, there is so, there is a myriad of different symptoms that come under that umbrella. So yeah, I remember him saying that. And I was like, no, that is not it. And I will not take that thing that you're suggesting. If I'd done it 10 years ago, I probably would have felt a hell of a lot better and had less symptoms. But, I didn't know. I just did not have the knowledge at all. So people like you, Naomi, campaigning and just getting the conversations out into the open has been so important and really helpful. Brilliant that people are talking about. It's brilliant that you guys are talking about it. So thank you.

Zoe, what about you? Yeah, I feel so much better about it all now. And I had the same thing where I just didn't know what was going on. I had terrible anxiety. That was my, that was the first thing that suddenly changed in me was this awful anxiety and going to work and worrying about everything, worrying about the kids worrying about and taking antidepressants because I thought that's what was needed. It's like, oh, that's going to treat that. And then realizing that a lot of that was perimenopause. And also my libido went and I just lost confidence in myself. I didn't know where I was going. And sometimes life can bring lots of emotions, you know, relationships, you know, parents, people being poorly, kids growing up like you say, people leaving the nest. There's so many different things that can affect your mood and your confidence.

So when you've got that running alongside perimenopause and menopause, it's very difficult sometimes to know what's what. And just slowly figuring those things out is a bit of a journey. And I think that's something I've said to my girlfriends who are at the early stages of perimenopause is, right, it's not a quick fix. And you might need to try a few different things. And you might just think you've got a handle on it and then something else like pop. but these are some of the things that, you know,

and I think that's what you're doing, Naomi, and I think this is why it's so brilliant. Everybody's talking about it is, look, it's an experience. There's a lot going on. And the more you know, the more you can be equipped to go to your GP and say, right, I think this is happening to me. And I've read about this drug and I've heard about that. And could I try that?

I think that's why we need to have these conversations. I'm fascinated to learn if a bell goes off one day, Naomi, and says, ding, ding, ding, ding. you're done. You're through the other side. Menopause is over. Do we know when it's over? Does, is anything happened to you and you're like, oh, I'm over it now? Or do you never really know? Well, you don't go through it. You go into it. Yeah. So you go from having working ovaries that are producing hormones to not working ovaries that are not producing hormones. So if you were to not take HRT so you can see what's going on with with periods and having them or not having them

then yes at some point you will become postmenopause your you know 12 months after your last you are postmenopausal 12 months after your last natural period okay but if you're on HRT then you won't know when you when that was and it doesn't mean that your symptoms will necessarily stop sometimes they do kind of peter out but the rate that they do that is just totally dependent from person to person. Okay. So now I'm tempted to stop my HRT to see what will happen to me, see whether any of the symptoms, yeah, how I would feel.

I wonder what would. I don't know if I want to risk it. No, I wonder what would happen though, because maybe I will be absolutely fine. Shall I try it as an experiment and we'll see? No, he's not sure about that, Joe. Not sure about that. Anita, hopefully some good answers there for you. Naomi, you have been an absolute superstar.

Thank you so much for answering our diggers questions and mine and Joe's questions as well. If people want more information, if our diggers need more information, you do a fabulous podcast. Naomi, what's it called? Where can people find it? So I do a podcast. It's called Is It Hot in Here? And you can find it on, so it's got its own Instagram page, which is podcast underscore Naomi Potter. And you can listen to it on all the usual places that you can download podcasts like Apple and Spotify. And my Instagram channel, my own Instagram channel can kind of feed you into it, which is at Dr. underscore Naomi Potter. And you are completely brilliant and you have saved

my life on many occasions and lots of other women. So thank you very much one more time. If you want to hear more of Dr. Naomi's advice, become a member of the potting shed. There's lots more to enjoy. Potting shed members get longer episodes and bonus content. Details of how to subscribe are in the show notes. And a huge thanks to Dr. Naomi. me. If you're interested in finding out more about her work, all you have to do is check out her clinic, Menopause Care. Don't miss her podcast. Is It Hot in here where she sits down with familiar faces to demystify menopause one conversation at a time. That was fantastic, wasn't it? See you on Wednesday, Zoe.