Dig It with Jo Whiley and Zoe Ball - 42: Rebecca Lucy Taylor aka SELF ESTEEM on Aging, Ambition and the Pressure to Perform

Episode Date: December 3, 2025

The brilliant Rebecca Lucy Taylor joins Jo and Zoe for a wide-open conversation about aging, ambition, burnout and the pressure to perform a version of yourself that isn’t always true. They chat about her new book A Complicated Woman, the wobble around turning 40, egg freezing, misogyny in music, and learning to slow down after years on the road. DIG IT LIVE AT CROSSEDWIRES PODCAST FESTIVAL Our first ever Digit Live is happening at Crossed Wires Festival in Sheffield on 5 July. Potting Shed presale opens 11am on 10 December, general sale 11 December. https://crossedwires.live/ BUY THE BOOK / BOOK TICKETS  A Complicated Woman is out now - https://www.waterstones.com/book/a-complicated-woman/rebecca-lucy-taylor/9781914240652  Rebecca Lucy Taylor stars in the 50th anniversary of Teeth 'N' Smiles - https://www.londontheatredirect.com/play/teeth-n-smiles-tickets  SUBSCRIBE TO OUR FREE NEWSLETTER Stay up to date with Dig It — new updates every Friday straight to your inbox. 👉 https://digitpod.substack.com/subscribe GET IN TOUCH 📧 Email us: [e-mail] 📱 Text or Voice Note: 07477 038795 💬 Or tap here to send a voice note or message on WhatsApp:⁠ ⁠https://wa.me/447477038795⁠⁠ SPECIAL THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS This episode is brought to you by Naked Wines, QVC, AG1 & Visit Scotland  ✨Naked Wines works directly with independent winemakers to bring you high-quality bottles at honest prices. Each case is tailored to what you actually like, so you can skip the supermarket scramble and enjoy brilliant wines delivered to your door. New customers get £30 off plus six top-rated bottles for just £39.99, delivery included. Try it at www.nakedwines.co.uk/digit ✨AG1 has 70 plus high-quality ingredients including vitamins, minerals, botanicals and good bacteria to support immunity, energy and gut health. New customers get £20 off their first month plus a free welcome kit with a shaker, canister and scoop. Only valid in December.Try it at www.drinkag1.com/digit ✨QVC - Click below to discover QVC’s range of menopause products and support. And don’t forget to use the code QDIG10 for £10 off your first purchase (minimum spends apply, see QVC website for full terms and conditions) -   https://www.qvcuk.com/content/menopause-your-way.html?cid=PR-PR-Digit&e22=Digit ✨Visit Scotland – Ready for your next great escape? Discover breathtaking beaches, ancient castles, whisky trails, and some of the most spectacular scenery in the world. Start planning your adventure with TripAdvisor’s travel guides, hidden gems and must-see spots across Scotland’s stunning landscapes – https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Scotland CREDITS Exec Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan Assistant Producer: Eve Jones Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Video Editors: Danny Pape and Jack Whiteside Dig It is a Persephonica production 

Coming up on Digit. There is something that happens about female ageing. It's really been sold as like not cool. I just would never talk about being a mum. It wasn't cool to say that you had a child. That blur documentary, I was watching it going, God, they look cool. They're all just like cane in the siggies and drinking all night and they're in the studio. I thought, women of the same air who's doing that, people would be like, oh my God, that's awful.

And that just sums it up. We are quite broken, all of us. We're all quite damaged. And we have to kind of address those, that constant monitoring. log. I looked at the audience and I just thought, I'm just going to ask them what they want. Who wants, Mariah Carey? And then the crowd went, boo! He suns down. That's hilarious. All of that right after this. Okay, so we have some very, very exciting news. We are taking Digit to the stage.

Woo-hoo. Yes, we're going to be last. in Sheffield at Crosswires on Sunday the 5th of July. And if you haven't heard of Crosswires, it's basically the world's biggest podcast festival. People have called it the Edinburgh Fringe for podcasts, even the Glastonbury of podcasting. It is a whole weekend packed with live shows from some of your favourite podcasts. They take over venues across Sheffield. There are after parties, DJ sets, outdoor bars, food stalls and loads of free events too. And we'll be at the Crucible, which is an iconic, intimate venue, the home of World Snooker, will be properly up close with all our diggers. Now, Sheffield is right in the middle of the country and very easy to get to by train.

So if you fancy making a whole weekend of it, you can. And the Peak District is right on the doorstep. Potting Shed members will get an exclusive pre-sale link at 11am on the 10th of December so you can grab early access tickets. And then general sale opens at 11am on the 11th of December. And if you subscribe to the potting shed through Apple's subscriptions, you'll need to email hello at digipod.co.com.com because Apple doesn't share your contact details with us. That is the only way we can make sure you get the presale link. We'd absolutely love you to come and soak up the atmosphere at CrossWire's. It's a brilliant weekend. Come and join us for our first ever Dig It Live show. We cannot wait to meet you in the flesh. All the details are there for you at CrossWire's. Live. We'll see. you there. This episode of Digit is sponsored by QVC.

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Happy Wednesday. Hey, Joe. Hi. Oh, knitwear. What are we wearing today? You are in pink looking resplendent. I love that. Thank you.

I'm going back to me, a Starsky knitwear. Oh, I love that one. McCarty, because it's really warm. Yeah. This top underneath, you might not be interested, by the way, but it is from Uniclo. And it's a top and it has a bra in it. So it's just got the front little bits. T-shirt with the bra in.

That's very good. T-shirt with the bra in. in, so you don't have to wear a bride. Yeah, and they don't always work for me, but it's good. Anyway, how are you, darling? What have you been up to? I've actually banished Nemo from the podcast today because he was so destructive and distractive last week.

He's been banished. The Ginger Destroyer. Can we get him in at the end, though? Because I think he is the Digit Therapy cats. I will. I'll get him in at the end of the podcast. But I just want to show and talk about the state of our dolls. Oh, my God.

So these are the dolls that are made in the image of us. You've been got. He actually got, I can't believe, how high. He managed to get himself up overnight to get you down off the shelf. You were very, very high. He managed to get up there, and he's ripped your hair apart. And you've now got some, like a, I don't know, an unravelling Dolly Parton bouffons. I think that really sums up how I'm feeling, to be honest with you.

And I think he's done such a good job of us. Jennifer, who made the dolls, said that she has got a hairdressing salon. So I'm going to send them back. And she's going to do our hair for us. So we will have hair for the new year, which is a relief. How exciting. Jennifer's amazing dolls that you can hang on your tree. Some of the best ones are sold out.

They are that good. We've got the David Bowie Angel on the Toffar Tree when it goes up eventually. Mine's up. You've got your tree up? It's up. I've tied little bows to it. I've got these really cheap bows on the... Because each year I like to add new things.

And this year we've got a lot... We love big lovers of peanuts in this house. So there's some really cute Snoopy baubes. One where he's holding skis. One he's holding a little presents. They're new to the tree. There's a new nogrony. because they're always topical are baubles.

I have added some little ribbons. It was quite twee, but I got a job lot for about 99P on the internet, and they look really good. I'm quite proud of them. I might have got a little bit carried away. The lodger was sort of looking on slightly in panic. Did you do it on your own? Did you do it with the lodger?

I did it on my own because I'm a complete control freak. And it looks beautiful. Oh, I want to see photos. Yeah. Well, it looks beautiful, but you know what? It's a fake one because I like to get it up early because if you get a real one now, then all the needles fall down. But I did say to the lodger, don't be surprised if you come home the week before Christmas and it's a real tree. Oh, gone full festive.

We went to Lapland this weekend, Lapland UK. How was it? Took Woody there with his friends, because Woody's birthday is the 15th of December. So we took Woody when he was probably about eight with a load of his friends for his birthday party. And it was so fun. And my nephew, Zach, is five. And my twin nieces, Poppy and Eliza, are 13. And you know, when you're thinking, is this going to, it would still be all right for them?

It was so fabulous. And the adults enjoy it as much as the kids. We're all just wandering through this beautiful, snowy forest. Oh, how lovely. There's a photo of us all. And we all have our eyes open. It's a Christmas miracle. Yeah, because when you take family shots, there's always someone who's going to be unhappy with it.

Yeah. Well, someone who's got their eyes closed. But it was such a great day. And it was a really good way to start Christmas. so I highly recommend it. And also, you met Dave. Tell me about Dave. Oh.

Have a photograph that I can see in front of me now, and it's you and the delightful day. I'm so happy to talk about Dave. We were filming in Kettering. We were filming up there, and there's this fantastic store where they get lots of stuff from urban outfitters that doesn't sell. So you get loads of car, heart, and Lisa, head of hair, we call her, had gone around there on lunch break. And when, you've got to love this shop. It's amazing.

You've got loads of stuff, and it's really good for Christmas presents. And everything's really cheap in there. And it's in a little yard in Kettering. There's some really lovely shops in Kettering. And she said, also, if you go there, you'll meet Dave. So I went round and sure enough, I met Dave. Dave is a local celebrity in Kettering. He works in the shop.

He's fantastic. He loves Strickley. So he met Lisa, who does the hair on Strickley, and she talked about doing Ellie's hair because he loved watching Ellie dance this year. Because I think everybody in the Down syndrome community, it was just so wonderful for everyone to, you know, feel seen. And so Dave was a massive fan of Ellie's, huge fan of Strickley.

And the exciting news, as I went in, I discovered that a couple of days later, Dave was going to be turning on the Kettering Christmas lights. And I've got some photos, so I'll share them with you. And he'd done an amazing job. So Dave, it was a joy to meet you. And I think your mum must be very proud of you. Wilbur has joined you. Wilbur has joined. I think he's heard about Nemo and he wanted to come and check out the competition.

You've not popped into a podcast for ages, have you? He's just had a little trim. It's funny, all the cats have got their winter coats at the moment. So they're really massive, aren't they? Huge. Huge. Wilbur's like a dog. He's a size of him.

So you've gone big on Christmas, haven't you? Yeah, I'm well in the festive mood. I've gone early. Probably too early. And also, I bought a couple of bits of Christmas food, which is a disaster because chocolates have been eaten. And these incredible Angela Hartnett goodies from Waitrose have been eaten. And this is the problem. If you buy this Christmas fodder too early, they get.

get eaten. So I'm not buying any more Christmas food until, till afterwards. And then I saw Jamie Oliver on Saturday and then he gave me a whole load of amazing cheese and chutneys. Oh my God. Which is just sitting there calling to me. I can smell them from here. So delicious. You cheered yourself up at the weekend. I saw, what did you get up to with disco Steve? Well, to start off with you, I did a gig. It was the last nighties anthem show of the year. So it was very special. And that was in Guildford. And they were the most incredible crowd. They were. so happy and loud and full of joy. I can't tell you. I've had so many nice responses from people who were in the audience saying how much they loved the night. But I was just looking out of

them just going, God, thank you so much for showing up. And they're obviously there with their mates. And I guess Christmas is coming. But they were really happy to be out. And they sang every song and they dance wildly. And they just smiled. Lots of people are dressed up as well. There was people are turning up, which I really want to encourage next year when I do the 90s anthem shows is for people to turn up in t-shirts, like band t-shirts, Brit pop t-shirts, or anything you associate with the 90s. So there was one person there who'd got a smiley face, like the acid face in front of her face. That was hilarious. And then there was a couple. And I could see the one that had a mask made of my face. And I was like, I pointed them out.

And I went, oh, there's me. And then I saw her friend had got another one on his face. And I went, oh, Steve LeMack. And then as I look closer, I went, oh, Robbie Williams. That will be the first time that Steve Lamack has been mistaken for Robbie Williams, I'm imagining. God, it made me laugh. That's hilarious. On the way there, Disco Steve was like, obviously, you're going to play Mariah Carey at the end of the show. And, you know, it's Christmas. And I went, no, no, no, it's not.

It's like the 28th of November. And you went, no, no, no, but everyone's starting Christmas now. You've got to play Christmas song. All I want for Christmas is you. And, you know, Scrooge here, that's me. Just, I was bar humbug. I'm not going to play Mariah Carey at the end of my gig. I'm going to play Radiohead like I always do.

And he was like, no, no. So we had this back and forth in the car on the way there. And then we were on stage and I looked at the audience and I just thought, I'm just going to ask them what they want. So, okay, so Disco Steve says we should play Mariah Carey. I think we should play Radiohead. We're going to take a vote. What should we do? Who wants, Mariah Carey?

And then the crowd went, boo! That's hilarious. And then I'm looking over at Steve just inside of stage, just going, yep, absolutely, I will. Who wants Radiohead? Yay! So my lovely nighties anthem's audience are just as grumpy as me about Christmas, not wanting to celebrate too soon. And I ended the show with Radiohead and Creep.

Couldn't be less Christmas-y, but it was a great anthem, and they sang their hearts out. Fantastic. Then on Saturday, I think it was. No, it was Sunday. It was a really beautiful day. And I don't know. I don't know if anybody else is feeling a little bit well at the moment. But it's just been so busy.

And there's so much, so much going on at the moment. I've not had time to go to the gym. I've, like, my hair is too long. It's too dark. I feel really unfit. I haven't done any exercise. I just don't feel very good about myself at all, at all, at all. And I said to Steve, I've got to do some exercise over the weekend at some point.

So obviously, because he's disco Steve and he brings so much joy in life to the world, literally 8.30 in the morning. Okay, going for a run. We're going for a run. You know, you just want to kill someone. I was like, oh, God, not yet. No, come on, we're going for a run. So he dragged me out. And we had the loveliest run.

It was so beautiful. And it was frosty and bright and sunny. And everybody was out walking their dogs and smiling and saying hello to each other. And we finished the run and I just felt a million times better. Look at your faces there as well. You look totally energized. You got loads of colour in your cheeks. Yeah.

And you look really in love, two of you. Oh. It was a good thing to do together. If you enjoy hanging out with us every week, do make sure you're subscribed on YouTube or hit follow on Apple or Spotify. Then the latest episodes will pop up as soon as they're out. It's so clever. Our guest today is someone we absolutely love. Rebecca Lucy Taylor, also known as self-esteem, who has just published her debut book. It's called A Complicated Woman and we've both been completely absorbed by it. It's not a typical celebrity memoir. It's this brilliant.

brilliant collage of essays, iPhone notes, lyrics in the book. Rebecca talks about womanhood, aging, sex, shame, ambition, burnout, confidence, fertility, the music industry, and the pressure to perform a version of yourself that isn't always true to who you really are. Welcome, the brilliant, complicated woman herself, Rebecca Lucy Taylor. How you doing? Anything for both of you and both of you combined, then extra anything. I'm good. I'm very happy to be here. I wondered if you were at your home, because last time I saw you, you were getting excited about the thought of getting a home. Have you got home yet? I have got a home. Yes. And it's, yeah, I'm obsessed with it. I can't stop thinking about it. I had a book shelf made and I am, and it's sort of like round the TV. And now I don't watch the TV. I just look at all my things being on the shelf. So yeah, I'm definitely into that era of my life. You've been working so hard. And I know in your book there's that great reference that I'll probably get it in the wrong order. Still, was it still no house, still no album, still no eggs? I don't know if I've done that in the right order.

But it is when you haven't got a home that is your base, you know, it's really discombobulating. And if you're working hard, I imagine you travel so much as well and you've had so much going on, there is something to be said for when you finally get into your nest, how important that is laying down your roots, having your things around you, your clothes, your stuff out of boxes. It's so good for the soul. I can't believe how it fit Because I'm always like I don't need societal norms

I was like Oh no you do need a home Because I've been like touring since I was 18 So the amount of like knickknacks That I've accrued And they've never had a place

All my knickknacks in one place has really turned me on I can't I can't deny It's really wonderful You know obviously like living in London I never thought that would be possible So I'm very sort of proud of myself But I'm also like

Not complacent But it does mean like maybe I won't do every opening of every envelope now, which would be nice. I remember hearing you on Joe's show. You were doing a session with Joe and you were, this part of the thing you were talking about was, you know, you had not stopped, you know, and you were exhausted. And this is the thing, you know, you have the albums have been amazing. You've been touring. You have been bringing so much of yourself to so many of us. And I don't know anyone who hasn't come away from your concerts so moved, so seen, you know, men, women, everybody I know who has, you know, fallen in love with you and your music and has got so much from it. You know, you've given that to a lot of people and that's all come from you.

It's quite amazing. I'm really proud of you. I don't know you very well, Rebecca, but you look and you think, and when I've seen you play, I'm like, thank you for being able to put into words what so many. of us feel and struggle with, you know, and you've done that in the book as well, which is fantastic. Tell us about the book. Tell us what's in there and why you wanted to make the book. I love the iPhone note thing because it's so, it's like brain to paper and I never messed with them. That was always like the premise of it. I was like, you know, I never edit them. And so posting them and then I did a little book of them in chronological order, like probably about

five years ago. And then they are what I, lyrics come from. So I was like, I find it interesting And you can see the germination of a lyric idea that then maybe makes a song that I'm singing a hundred times a year. You know, maybe someone else. But then I'd also written this sort of play, the central story and it was a play that I'd written for a theatre. Because I was throwing a lot of soil at the wall, shall we say, on Diggett for the years. I love that. Nice. I've got this idea.

I've got this idea. I've got that idea. And then as soon as like one song did well and everyone was kind of like I sort of blew up in my sort of small way that I did in 2021. And then, like, everyone was calling. It was like, that play you wrote, do you want to put it on that? And it was really, really excited. And I was really grateful, but I was also like, don't do anything that wasn't good enough before that. So, thank God, I could think like that. So I sort of stopped. And the book was the only one that I thought I could do that. And I know what it should be. And normally the publisher really helped me. Because as soon as I said

yesterday in a book, my life got crazier. I had no time to do anything. But I did have these notes. I had this story and she really helped me shape what it is. And the sort of difficult third album process was quite, I mean, I've not been quite about it. I really didn't enjoy putting this last album out because it was so, it was just so much expectation. It's unavoidable.

Like, I've prepared rationally so much for how difficult it would be to put an album out after putting one out that everyone thought was so good. Yeah. especially a woman as well. I feel like the zeit guys can't wait to be like, oh, actually, it's not that good, actually. Yeah. So I knew it was coming, even if I wrote, like, Bohemia Rhapsody.

But the book stayed this, like, anchor that was, like, completely in my control and no stakes. There was no stakes. No one needed me to write a book. There was no expectation, and there was full control, which I really loved. So I just now, I'll just move in form. I'll just always just do something I've never done before, and they'll never expectation. So next I'm, you know, I don't know, baking. It's because you always like to scare yourself and challenge yourself all the time.

But this album was really, really good. And a few years ago now, my daughter, India, who you've met and you've, when she was approaching 30, so you know India, you've known her since she was like 5. But India was going to be 30 and she was freaking out. Like she, it was such a massive thing for her. And I messaged Rebecca and I was like, could you just send some words of advice over to India? And you did this most beautiful, heartfelt little video to her just saying it's nothing to be scared off. It's going to be fine. It's going to be all right.

And she's been to see you so many times and every single time she'll message me and she's like, you know, you mean so much to her and you've charted her journey as a young woman growing up and all the things, the pressures that you go through, whether it's, you know, working, having a family, being yourself, going through relationships, all of that kind of stuff.

And the other night I played Deep Blue Okay on my show and she messaged me and she was like, oh my God, I'm just driving home and I've just seen a shooting star and you're playing Deep Blue Okay. I was like, you know, there's a lot going on in our families at the moment and it just felt very, very serious. significant. I was like, God, she is always with us. Rebecca Lucy Taylor is always a significant

part of our life. Everywhere. That's so it, though, because I have a revenge mission for the girl that felt like India when she was going to turn 30, you know? I mean, like, I just can't bear it. So any time something I've made makes somebody feel a bit less insane about something, that helps, like, Rebecca Lucy Taylor feel a bit better from, you know, back in the day. Yeah. It makes more sense than ever, no, to me, why I'm doing it and why I put myself through it. And then when I get sort of very upset about it all, it's only ever because of the like commodification of it or the growth of it and, you know, all the bits that you just can't control. So always are returning to the right songs for shooting stars.

Yeah. And I can do that indefinitely. Just meaning something to people. You know, yeah, people relate to everything that you're saying of all different ages. I'm intrigued to know where you go next because we're older than you. So we know the next stage of life. We know what that holds. And I'm really excited to see how you document that too.

Thank you. It's funny. I'm 40 next year. And I mean, there's someone who campaigns relentlessly for that meaning nothing. It is sending me a bit wobbly. Isn't it strange? But I think that's society and patriarchy and, you know, all the things we know very well. That's louder than ever on that number for some reason. But then I also know it'll be great. We're going to take a little break now. If you'd like these episodes, add free. become a subscriber to the potting shed. You will get longer episodes. You'll get early access to our live show, which is happening in Sheffield. So it's a very, very good time to join now. But most importantly, you'll be supporting the show. To subscribe, head to digipod.com.org or tap the link in the show notes. It's something interesting as well that you've spoken about is, you know, this is the thing with 40 approaching and everybody. he says, well, you're going to have a family. You're going to do this. You're going to do all these

things. And you have frozen your eggs. What does that make you feel? Has that given you? I don't know, because I never did that because I had Woody and then awaited and I got, but I've got a lot of friends who have frozen their eggs and some who've been heartbroken and not done it soon enough and they've gone to do it and they've been told that, you know, it's perhaps not going to happen for them. But what has that given you that process this year? I don't have this like unbearable craving to be a mom. Yeah. But I also, I basically ping pong between like career equals no baby or baby equals no career. And like both of those things aren't true, but alone in my brain for decades it has been. So freezing the eggs was like, at least you know you did something. Right. If it gets to the

point where it isn't possible for me, I don't have a feeling like I'm guaranteed an option. But I think at least, yeah, there's something like where I was like, well, at least you were sort of smart and did what you could with what you had. But it's interesting. I've like, I mean, there's email trains of me because I sort of went crazy when I did it and was like, you have to make some sort of charity to like supplement people so everyone can do it because it's, again, it's another thing I'm just like so heartbroken about is like, if this all haven't happened to me, I'd never been able to do it, I'd never

been able to afford to do it. And there's like an alternate timeline of my life that is like I haven't been able to cover my back and in whatever my life might bring. It's just incredibly hard. a performer being musician where you have to give so much of yourself. I mean, and lots of other careers are the same. But I think it's extraordinarily difficult for someone like yourself, you know, and getting the success a little bit later on in your career as well. That being a mother, it's like, how does it fit in and how am I going to make this work? It's just, it's really tough.

A male journalist recently said, because one of my lyrics is sort of saying, like, don't worry if you haven't had kids, kind of basically. And I, I was, I've never been saying, don't do that. And I certainly, when I was younger and I was really jealous of everyone, I probably had a bit of a, I never was anti it. I was always just like, why is it the only option, why we've bred to think that we have to? Anyway, this journalist was like, are you worried that, you know, if you have a family, will, um, I'll sort of alienate you from your funds. I was like, oh, my God. I was like, all right, okay. Back we go.

It's so frustrating, isn't it? Because you just feel sometimes that we make so much progress. and then just people say things like that and you think, oh, are we getting anywhere? Are we getting anywhere? It's interesting because often I've seen the things that you've said and you've shared and I think probably from people contacting you

because your words, your lyrics, the way you speak. Rebecca, I think has helped so many people and I read things that you've written in your book that so I totally relate to. And I think Joe and I am slightly from a generation where we're still slightly in the old, oh yeah well that was just the way it was we just sort of accept that and sometimes i've actually had to pull myself up when talking to friends of mine who are younger and like oh my god i've conditioned

myself to be like that's okay and now i'm unconditioning myself and thinking no it's not okay and it's and so we are constantly sort of learning these things and it's i'm learning from my kids and i'm learning from friends of mine who are younger but actually i need to slightly reprogram myself but when things like that said you just think oh for goodness sake sometimes lazy journalism, sometimes just digging for a reaction. I think he genuinely wondered. I don't know. I just went, well, I've never said don't have kids.

I've just said do whatever you want. Back in the day, and so you're probably the same thing. But when I was on the radio and it was all the Brit Pop and evening session and all those kind of days, I just would never talk about being a mum. I mean, I didn't refer to India at all at all at all because it was that Ladetti kind of era. And you just didn't, family wasn't cool. It wasn't cool to say that you had a child. Annie Nightingale never talked about it.

Janice Long barely did. But yeah, you just felt like it's a little bit embarrassing. Just don't mention the baby and don't mention being a mum because you won't be equal. And so I didn't talk about her for ages. It was John Peel in the end who taught me that it was okay to discuss having a family. And as soon as I started talking about it on the radio, you had so many people coming back at you and relating and going, yeah, it is all right. Of course life goes on. Of course you can have children.

It's fine. Do what suits you. It's so mad. because it's back to that thing of like we're allowed women have to be one thing but needs to be all of this as well so like societally i ingested media going like unless i'm somebody's mom and a wife yeah i won't have done well but then you guys are in the media trying to pretend that's not you and then it's like woohoo what's it's so messed up what we went to it's so messed up and so honestly i've told this story so many times but that blur documentary

i was watching it going god they look cool they're all just like cane in the siggy and drinking all night, and they're in the studio. I thought, women of the same age, just doing that. People would be like, oh, my God, that's awful. And that just sums it up, really. I do feel like we've made a load of headway. I hung up with someone I used to hang out with 10 years ago recently, and I thought, God, the world has changed.

He would not talk to me like he did back then. Wow. And now he'd a good moment. But then, yeah, come back to that. And you're like, ultimately, there is something that happens about female ageing. It's really been sold as, like, not cool. Cool is the word, and it's an annoying word. But now I, I can't think of anything cooler than you two.

You know, I can't think of anything cooler than Patti Smith. I can't think about it. You know, like, so it's like it doesn't, it's not really working, but I am having to unlearn it as well. Because I've been doing it to myself. We do it to ourselves as well. You're right. I said it. Recently, they were like, what do you hate by itself?

And I was like, this is a ton of internalized misogyny. That is in, like, it is just comping through my veins, ready to go. And it's, you know, with my life's work is to. to like challenge that. And then once I've done that, I'll write a song about it and then help other people to, I guess. But it's funny how quick it is to access. It's exhausting as well, isn't it? Because you have it. Joe has it. I do. We're all, we're all like, yay, la la la, la, everything's great. And I believe these things and la la la. But the monologue that runs in your brain waking to go and sleep, looking off the kids, being a mum,

working da-da-da-da-da. Feeling young, feeling cool, looking after yourself. You know, this, it is, it is, we are quite broken. All of us were all quite damaged. And we have to kind of address those, that constant monologue of doing yourself down, doing yourself out of something, then bigging yourself up again. And then, you know, it's a lot to manage. The pressure of looking good that still carries on, doesn't it. It doesn't matter what age you are, whether you're 20, 30, 40 and you're thinking, oh, I should be putting stuff in my face or should be doing this, or should be going to the gym, that never ends, no matter how much progress we make. And we do it to ourselves. And we do it to ourselves, don't we? It's like a jekyll and hide where I'm like, fuck that. I'm not taking

that supplement. I'm not going to fucking do that. I'm not going to be this person every expects me to be. And then the next thing, I'm like, I really must do this and I've got to do that. No, no, no, no, no. I shall I feel this. And you're doing it and you're like, ah, it is like a jekyll and hide. I can't something about like the filler and Botox and things like that, which I have no judgment on. And I've, I see the doctor up in the forehead now and again, no judgment. Yeah, totally. I'm going to steal that phrase. What I was thinking about this is the other day. The only definite is aging. It's the only

definite. Everything else is maybe not definite. That is. Everyone is trying to define it. Like, everything. Capitalism is probably the number one thing they're selling us. I'm like, what if we all just decided that that's fine? Why is there an organism we've decided to make us all sad forever? It's no sense. Just to beat ourselves up, yeah. So we can be really interesting musically that some sort of like crossover global pop star moment hasn't happened for me. And I just keep thinking, the system is such that it wouldn't let it. And they're go look at see her and I say she put a bag on her head for the whole company so no like I just so it's it's sort of freeing because I'm a bit like make the art you want to mean yeah if I was 25 and

had the success I've had we'd all be like right she's going to go to America she'll do you know all this and I'm like let's just be realistic it'd be lovely if it goes it'd be amazing to blow up somewhere else but I don't have to and I think that's probably a bit of a gift for me in my lifetime Rebecca, the ultimate thing is that you have affected so many other women, so many girls. And that is a success. It's not the global superstardom. It's the impact on my India, on all her friends, on the next generation below them. That is success. That's what you've achieved. Yeah. And it's girls and it's boys as well, Rebecca. It really is. Also, I've had a bit of time out this year. I sort of stepped back to sort of left a job I really loved just because I needed to. And I've never done that in my life. I've always worked. I've always been like, you know, and you don't want to turn anything down because what if you don't get offered again? You should be grateful for all this stuff. And this year was the first year where I've stepped back because I needed to.

And I've been able to sort of really appreciate everything that's happened and reflect and I've been grieving. And I've had time for my kids that perhaps I hadn't been. And at the end of this year, I find myself in quite a lovely place. And it's quite unique to me because I've never really. given myself that time. As we come to the end of this year, Rebecca, where do you find yourself as you sort of look back? I think it's got, I've got to do that. I've got to take some time. Like, obviously, I'll be busy next year, but I'm a hell of a lot less busy. And it's planned

because I was like, there's no point in this. I've not been there. Like, I haven't been present at any of this. We sang at Wembley on Saturday night on the pitch before the lionesses. And And I was like, I can't even, I felt like I was on a VR headset. Like, and it's just such a shame. So I've got to. So where I'm at is like exhausted and this week was meant to be off and I'm doing loads of things and I just, I'm my own worst enemy. But I'm quite excited next year I'm doing a play.

There'll be festivals. And then I've got this little, this little idea of like, no one call me till January, which I just can't stop buzzing about. And I'm also like, I won't even plan to do anything. I might not go anywhere. I might stay my flat. And I think then it'll. all sort of sink in maybe, I don't know.

Yeah. If I could have, I'd have had a year off before doing complicated women. But again, I'm challenging this all the time. I'm like, it felt like I wasn't allowed to, I couldn't. And that certainly would have helped me mentally. So just stuff like that where I'm like, we have decided now the goal is no longer super mega world stardom. The goal is to make something meaningful.

So now the sort of practice to get the goal is to enable that for me. But you are doing the play. Just tell us a little bit about the play. The play is like a break actually for me. That's good. Cabrero was like a resting holiday that was ridiculous, but like mentally it's good for me to keep working, but it's not self-esteem. So yeah, the play is about, it's a Cull Teeth and Smiles. It's a David Hare play. It was written in 75. Helen Mirren did it the first time. I mean, come on. So that's no biggie, Mariel. But yeah, it's about, it was inspired by David

Hare, used to tour like a theatre company. So they were driving it in a shitty little vinyl up and down the country, and he wrote this play about the some monotony of touring and turned it into being about a band. The lead character is Maggie, who is, I'm not quite sure yet. On the, like, bits of work I've done so far on it is, she's just very nihilistic and very, very fed up, and she's reacting to the system perfectly reasonably, which obviously I was like, hold my beer, no problem. I can make that. But I think there'll be more, It's more in their fictional music, fictional bands, fictional musicians are all always. Even if it's really good, every single one has got a damaged girl in it who's very, very

vulnerable, but she's special and she's the one who could write the good song, do you know what I mean? And I just feel like we see it so many times. And what I love about Teeth and Smiles is she could not be less like that. And I love that that was written in 75. And he says himself, like, everyone was writing these sort of like damaged women holding onto the bottle and, you know, we destroy them on stage for our. And I think it's really timely as well, still.

We're still destroying women on stages. And a lot of people make a lot of money and they don't, you know. So, yeah, it's going to be really fun. There's music, there's original music that was written in the 70s. There was like, talk about me writing songs for it. And I was like, no, why would we not take like the actual? So that's been really fun. I've been working on those songs with Richard Hawley's band in Sheffield.

So we're like reworking them a little bit. And yeah, next step is like build the band. It's like Blackadder, I keep saying it's like I'm Blackadder and it's self-esteem in the 70s basically. Wonderful. Winging about the same things. We do something called crate digging, so it's music that we are liking at the moment or we've loved over the year. Do you have anything for us, any offerings? The new Divine Comedy album.

Oh. Have you heard that yet? No. I haven't heard Neil's new album, no. Rainy Sunday afternoon. When I'm working really hard, I barely listen to music. which is another thing that I hate because I can't bear to be inspired because then I'm like, well, I haven't got any time to have any new ideas.

So that is also part of next year is I'm going to listen to music again. But this year, all I could listen to was Lady of a Certain Age by Divine Comedy. Do you know that song? No. Oh, my God. I mean, it's from years ago. It's so insane. It's the greatest song of all time.

Oh, my God. That was 2006. Oh, my God. Oh, wow. So, yeah. And so I've allowed myself. divine comedy in my life. So their new album, I love it. I really love it. I'm a really big fan. And everyone goes, you should work together. I'm like, yeah, but he's such a good lyricist.

With too many words if we work together. How are you with Christmas? I'm used to hate Christmas and I hated it because I do think it's still like it shoves down your throat if you've not got all the things, you know. But over the years again, as I'm evolving my personality and my snobbery against things, I've started to like it. So I've got a tree up. Yes. My partner is a real pervert for Christmas. That's such a great way of putting it. People would like lovely childhoods are. But how lovely to have your own place and to have him and this is a night. This is a proper, nice, lovely thing for you to be experiencing and you savour it.

It is. We've got the dog's got an advent kindness and that's good. And now I'm so exhausted that any break is good. So it's nice that it's a break with like nice food and twinkling lights and my parents, you know. Yeah. But yeah, I've done the same thing every year. Me and Mom and Dad in Unstub. How about you guys?

Oh, yes. I've got my trees up. I've gone full tree up. I've done those of shopping. I've had the time, honestly. I think I'm driving everyone a little bit mad with it though because I'm around so much and I'm being so organised. I'm being a person that I have never been in my life. I'm being quite wifey. I keep shocking myself. I'm like, I'm doing things that are quite wifey behaviour and I am not that person, but I quite enjoy it. I've got a feeling though. It's radical to. enjoy the wifie shit if you're choosing it. Yes. If you're not doing it because you have to do it. If you're choosing to do it and it's making you feel good, I've had some moments like that when my friends have turned around and going, who are you? I'm like, I don't know, but I quite like it. But that might be on a Friday by Sunday. I'm like, shh, put your own shit in the dishwasher. So, you know, there's the balance. There's the balance of it all. Rebecca, as a Sheffield lass, And I love that you've been working with Richard Hawley's band of late. We are going to Crosswires, the podcast festival in Sheffield in July.

Joe and I are going to do our first live event, which is thrilling and terrifying all at the same time. What do we need to be looking out for in Sheffield? It's so great up there. I dream of living in Sheffield. My favourite bar is called Public. It used to be a toilet. And now it's a bar. So obviously, that's very up my street.

Yellow Arch Studios, I would say. is a great place to see music. And that podcast festival is really amazing. And also just like you're 20 minutes away from just beautiful countryside as well. You sound like you're in a really good place. And I'm really happy for you. I'm really happy to see you in that. You're just like, oh, it's making me really excited.

And yeah, and they can't wait to see the play. Thank you so much for talking to us. It's always the dream. Yeah. And thank you for a complicated woman. and the music and the albums and that moment. It could last every this year and you know we love you. Well, I love you both.

Great Christmas present kids. Like literally great Christmas present for any young individual or any older individual. It's so good. Oh, thank you. Lots love, Rebecca. Bye. Merry Christmas, darling. Thanks, loves.