Dig It with Jo Whiley and Zoe Ball - 53: Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Simple Daily Ways to Feel Happier

Episode Date: January 5, 2026

Dr Rangan Chatterjee joins Jo and Zoe to talk about the small tweaks that make us happier in our day-to-day lives. They chat micro-stress doses (and why your phone might be sabotaging your morning before you’ve even put the kettle on), and a gratitude practice that even skeptics can try.  HIS BOOK IS OUT NOW - HAPPY MIND, HAPPY LIFE Dr Rangan Chatterjee explores happiness as a daily practice, built through small, sustainable habits. His Core Happiness model focuses on contentment, control and alignment at any age. Waterstones - https://www.waterstones.com/book/happy-mind-happy-life/rangan-chatterjee/9781405982160  HIS CHANNEL 4 SHOW - LIVE WELL WITH THE DRUG-FREE DOCTOR In this Channel 4 one-off, Dr Rangan meets people living with chronic conditions to explore how lifestyle changes can transform health. It’s a hopeful, practical look at living well beyond medication. Watch from Thursday: https://www.channel4.com/programmes/live-well-with-the-drug-free-doctor  SUBSCRIBE TO OUR FREE NEWSLETTER Stay up to date with Dig It — new updates every Friday straight to your inbox. 👉 https://digitpod.substack.com/subscribe GET IN TOUCH 📧 Email us: [e-mail] 📱 Text or Voice Note: 07477 038795 💬 Or tap here to send a voice note or message on WhatsApp:⁠ ⁠https://wa.me/447477038795 SPECIAL THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS This episode is brought to you by Ancient + Brave ✨Ancient + Brave – This January isn’t about being “good”, it’s about having energy that actually lasts. Ancient + Brave’s True Creatine+ supports strength, cognition and steady energy without the jitters or crash. It’s neutral tasting, dissolves easily and fits effortlessly into real life. They’re also a certified B Corp and members of 1% for the Planet, so it’s good for you and good for the planet too. Subscribe and save 20% on your monthly wellness rituals, plus get a free ritual scoop. Head to ancientandbrave.earth to get started. CREDITS Exec Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan Assistant Producer: Eve Jones Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Video Editors: Cameron Laird Dig It is a Persephonica production

Coming up on Diggett. I've learned to do gratitudes a while ago whilst I was going through a bit of a tough time. And I, that's the way that sometimes I stop the negative voices in my head. And when I'm stressed or anxious or worried about things or the things that are out of control, it is such a simple practice. Often when a woman becomes a mother, and let's say they stop working, at least in the short term, and some people stop working, you know, for a long period of time whilst they are raising their children. And then it's quite common at that point to go. well, who the hell am I? You know, I thought as a mother, but now I don't need my role as the mother. You know, I'm not that anymore either. So who am I? All of that right after this. Today we're joined by someone whose work has genuinely helped millions of people feel calmer and more connected to themselves. The brilliant Dr. Rangan Chatterjee is here. His latest book, Happy Mind, Happy Life has so much in it that it feels perfect. perfect for our diggers. Things like how to build core happiness through contentment, control,

alignment. Welcome, Dr. Ronan. Zoe, Joe, I'm super super excited for this conversation. So that's for having me on. Oh, brilliant. Well, we're big fans. Ronan, anyway, you know that. And we have been obsessed with your book, Happy Mind, Happy Life, 10 simple ways to feel great every day. timely I think as well and we'll be talking about your television series that starts later this week as well where is a really good place to start January is often a time that we want to embrace new habits we want to take care of ourselves a little bit it's often quite a good place to begin with small changes wrong and where where's a good place to start I think an interesting place to start would be to think about the link between health and happiness. And the reason I say that is because at this

time of year, a lot of people are thinking about, well, how do I get healthier this year? I want more energy. I want more vitality. I want less stress or whatever it might be. And they bring in goals and sometimes New Year's resolutions. And I think for me, having seen patients now for you know, well over two decades, I've always found it interesting as to what is it really that is required to help people change their lives for goods? Because I think in January, that's what people are really looking for. They're not really looking for drop a dress size in four weeks. Okay, that may be marketed to them. But having seen tens of thousands of patients over the course of my career, what people are really looking for is transformation. They want to feel

better sustainably throughout the year and for many years to come. And they often don't think about happiness. And that's one of the reasons I wrote this book, because in some ways it's a bit of an odd one from a doctor. Why is a doctor writing a book on happiness? And that's because from what I observe seeing patients, but also when I went and looked at the research, there's a really strong link. So happiness and health, there is a relationship between the two of them that goes both ways. Now, one of the ways is quite obvious, right? You might go, yeah, well, if I'm healthier, yeah, of course I'm going to be happier. I'm going to have more energy, more vitality, I'm going to sleep better. Of course, I'm going to be happier. But if you look at the research,

it shows you that independently, the research goes the other way as well. Happier people are healthier. And I'll give you like a couple of examples that really sort of bring this point home. There was a study done a few years ago where they put people into a laboratory and half of the group were in, well, not half of the group, the entire group were injected with something called rhinovirus. It doesn't sound like a pleasant study, but rhinovirus is basically the bug that causes the common colds, right? So we're all being exposed to it all the time. But really interestingly, not everyone who got injected up their nose got sick. And they could tell, that if you were not happy, you would get sick three times more than the group who were happy, right? So that's really really interesting, isn't it? We're all getting exposed to bugs all the time, but not all of us are going to get sick. And there's many factors, but one of the factors is your state of mind and your mood. And there's other research that supports that as well. So I don't know if you, you know, you asked me where's an interesting place to start.

to me, I find this link super, super interesting. And I think maybe this year, not instead of working on your health, but maybe alongside working on your health, why not work on your happiness first? And I pretty much guarantee if you do that, you're also going to find yourself healthier as well. And what do you see? Like, has there been a change over the years of how people were, say, five years ago to what is consuming people right now?

What is making them unhappy and what they need to change? For sure. I would say, not even just the last five years, Joe, I would say since I started my career and I qualified in 2001. Okay, so, you know, almost 25 years ago now. I would say that the impact of stress has been getting more and more throughout the entirety of my career. And I certainly think COVID ramp that up massively. And I still don't think as a society, we've actually properly come to terms with what's happened. and we've not really returned back to the things that we used to do to help us relax and de-stress. I would say stress is probably one of the biggest issues I see for health and happiness. And I think you can look at it in several different ways, Joe. I think stress, we know, is responsible for 80 to 90% of what a doctor sees in any given day, which is remarkable. Yeah, in some way is responsible. Wow.

And that's because the stress response affects every organ system in the body. So just, you know, a quick primer for you guys and your audience, because I found this super interesting and my patients really love to understand what stress actually is. Stress is there to keep you safe. Right, that's what your stress response is designed to do. So 100,000 years ago, we're hanging out on our hunter-gatherer tribe, you know, doing our thing, digging tubers and, you know, making fire, whatever it is. And if we see a wild predator approaching the camp, our stress response would kick into gear

and several things would happen. Our blood sugar would go up so more glucose gets to our brain. Our blood pressure goes up so more oxygen gets to our brain. Our amygdala, which is our brain's emotional center, goes onto high alert. So we're now hypervigilant so we can hear any pin drop sound. If there's any threat coming from somewhere else. Now, if you just think about those three things, those things are really helpful in the short term if you really are in danger. The problem today, guys, is that for many of us, there I say it, most of us, our stressed response has been activated by the state of our daily lives, email inboxes, elderly parents we're trying to look after at the same time as trying to bring up young children, four social media platforms we're trying to keep up to date, whatever it might.

be, those things are psychological stresses, but our physical body starts to react in the same way. So those three things that I mentioned, and I could mention 20 different things, but those three things I mentioned, which are helpful in the short term, become really harmful in the long term. So your blood glucose going up for 20 minutes while you're running away from a tiger or you're doing your spinning class at the gym, no problem. If that's going up every day because of the state of your life, it causes fatigue, weight gain around the belly, and ultimately talk to your diabetes. Your emotional brain going into high alert and you being hypervigilant, that's no problem in the short term. Long term, that's what we call anxiety. So once you understand

how the stress response affects everything, it's very hard for me to say that the number one factor getting in the way of our health and our happiness is stress in my view. I can see that completely. I can see it within my own family, yeah, like all my kids, I've got four kids of different ages from 33 down to 17, and they all have their own different stresses going on. The bombardment on everybody, I think, is just so much, isn't it? In terms of, like, the global, the news that comes out of us all the time, and it's so scary at the moment, and it's delivered in such a frightening way that everybody is on hyper-alert.

and I'm watching my children how they have to deal with it. It's very, very difficult to know what advice to give them to know how to process that and get on with living their lives in a happy way. I completely agree. You know, it's something that we all have to face. We all have to recognize that the modern world for many of us has become incredibly stressful. But, you know, the exciting thing for me is that there are so many things you can actually do about this. First, you have to recognize that chronic stress may be playing a role in my life.

And then you have to get to the next step, which is, okay, well, some of these stresses I can change, some of them I can't. Okay. So even if I can't change some of the stresses, are there things that I can do in my life that help me reduce the impact on me? And I think one of the most helpful ways I have figured out how to explain this to patients over the years is with a concept that I call micro-stress doses. It would it be okay if I just sort of try and paint a Take chips. Yeah, please do. Tell us how to do this. Yeah, this is great. Okay, so what is a micro-stress dose? So a micro-stress dose is a little dose of stress that in isolation, you can handle just fine. The problem is when they all mount up, because when they mount up, you get to what I

call your personal stress threshold. And when you hit your threshold, that's when the problems arise. That's when your back goes, your neck goes into spasm, you respond reactively to an email, not that you guys have ever done anything like that before. Oh, yes, I have. But the point is that these things... Tick, tick, tick. These things are a result of our stress states because we literally see the world

through the state of our nervous system. And so I paint a picture for people and say these days, many people are exposed to 20 micro-stress doses before they've even left the house. So I'll give an example. Let's say you've had a busy day at work you're tired in the evening, you have a couple of glasses of wine to unwind, and you stay up a bit

too late watching something on Netflix. Right. So it's midnight, and you look, think, damn, you know, I need to be up at half six, I've got to go to bed. Right. So you go to bed. And let's assume you've had a good night's sleep. Now, here's the problem. You're in a deep sleep. 6.30 a.m. your alarm goes off, usually on people's phones, right? That's what I call micro-stress dose number one, or MSD number one. And you look at your phone, you go, oh, you know what, I'm knackered, I put snooze on. Okay, so you doze up again six minutes later, the snooze goes off, my criss dose number two. Then you pick it up and you just, you know, in your haze, you open up your email, oh, damn, the sweet emails I didn't get to you yesterday, I need to do today,

micro stress dose number three. Then you quickly go to your social media platforms and see that someone's left a nasty comment for you. Microstress dose number four, you go on the new news website and see tales of wars in foreign countries around the world. The point I'm trying to make is often before you've even left your bed, you've been exposed to maybe 10 micro stress doses. And what does that mean? That means you're closer and closer to your stress threshold. So you have very little headroom left. And so here's a massive problem. You now don't need much stress in your day before you tip over that threshold. So, For many of my patients, that really helps them understand that all of these different inputs,

particularly first thing in the morning, are kind of setting me up for failure here. Yeah. So for some people, I think having some intentional time to yourself without your phone every morning, as hard as that can be, can be very, very helpful. So you're not necessarily having, it's not as though you're tackling each one of those MSDs one by one. you're just going, if I don't go on my phone for the first 20 minutes of the morning, I'm naturally staying at zero. I'm naturally, you have to do one thing,

and that will immediately reduce 10 or 15 of those micro-stress doses. So was that all clear? Yeah, oh my God, this is brilliant. I've just ordered this lovely device that goes in the bedroom that wakes you with a very kind of calming alarm It will be an experiment, rather than Joe, it may not work. But the idea being that that is your way to wake up and then this goes somewhere else downstairs because I am, when you're saying that, I'm thinking, you know, you're so right. And in your book, you talk about a really good thing, which I want to, I might even get tattooed on myself, which is treat your phone like a person and create boundaries like you would with friends or work colleagues or a partner.

And I thought that was so key. And I guess that, just you explaining those, you know, micro-stress doses in the morning and just how many, because I will, the alarm goes on, it goes off. I check the news. I check socials. I check my email. And I've not even put my feet on the ground next to the bed. And that is the way to start. And so, be, the key thing there is that there's nothing wrong with you, right?

It's not that you're weak or you don't have motivation or willpower. these phones are designed for this purpose, right? So I've written six books now on this stuff. I've been talking about it in public for like 12 years now. I am just as susceptible as anyone else, right? If I don't leave my phone in my kitchen to charge overnight and I bring it into my bedroom, I cannot resist looking at it. Yeah.

So, you know, and in case this is useful for people because people have all kinds of questions about this kind of stuff. And they go, well, someone needs me at night. Look, I care for my elderly mom who lives. is five minutes away. I've always cared for my parents. It's one of the reasons I still live in the northwest of England. And so a few years ago, I realized, well, I do something that maybe is quite old-fashioned now. I still keep a landline, right? Yes. And, you know, now, I acknowledge not everyone can afford a mobile phone contract and a landline. So I understand that. At the same time,

I can. And I've realized that my only six people in the world have my landline number. You know, close family, my brother, my mom, my wife's parents, right? So basically, if that phone rings late into the evening or in the night or it's usually something very, very important. But it allows me to switch my phone off, which means Instagram and X and emails have disappeared. So my approach is always about never being prescripted to people, right? I respect everyone's right to live life in the way that they choose. So I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do. I'm simply sharing stuff that I have found useful and many of my patients have found useful over the last couple of decades. It's so good, alarm clocks. That's what everyone, you know, should have got for Christmas. I'm going to let you

know how that alarm system works for me though, because I do think, you know, and also practicing what you preach, because it's hard with the kids. You know, my daughter is 16, nearly 16 and, you know, trying to get her phone off her, and then she'll say, but, Mum, you've got yours. And I'm like, yeah, actually, I guess teaching the kids sort of healthier ways. Brilliant. Well, that's a great start, isn't it? Also, just the sort of the visualization of what you've just told us about all those little moments, it does. I think there'll be so many people listening to us nodding, thinking, yeah, that is me, that is me. And if you think about that stress, just before you've even put the kettle on, if you could reduce that, it would be a really good start to the day.

Well, stress is such a commonly used term now, right? And I've mentioned one thing that people can get their heads around. But there's a couple of things I think are a little bit counterintuitive when it comes to stress that it just came to me that would be maybe worth just saying at this time. One massive source of stress in our lives is not living life in the way that we truly want to, like not fully being ourselves. One of the, Greater stress researchers of all time, Hans Selyer, he actually, I think before he died, he actually said something to the effects of the greater stress in life is not being yourself or something like that. And he's done all the signs of it work on stress. And that speech said this model of happiness that I have that I outline in the book, I said that happiness is a skill. It's a skill we can all cultivate if we know what to work on. It's not something that just happens to us one day, when our email inbox is manageable and when our boss is nice to us and when, you know, you're on top of your workload. No, those things are nice situations to

have, but that's not, I think, the deep level of happiness that most human beings are looking for. What I found is that it's very helpful to look at it as a skill that we can cultivate. And through that lens, I boiled happiness down into three separate ingredients. Each one of these ingredients is important, well, it's essential, but it's not enough in and off itself. And the three ingredients are alignment, contentment, and control. So alignment is literally what I'm talking about. When the person who you really are inside and the person who you are being out there in the world are one and the same. So when your inner values and your external actions start to match up, That's what I call alignment.

Contentment is what are those things that you do regularly that give you that sense of peace and calm and contentment and control. It's quite an interesting word. It's not about controlling the world because the world cannot be controlled. It's about giving ourselves a sense of control because we know from the research that people who have a strong sense of control over their lives are healthier, they're happier, they have better social relationships and they earn more money.

And just going back for a minute to what I said about the phone in the morning and there's micro-stress doses, one of the reasons I'm a huge trying of morning routines, which are a bit of a cliche for some people, and I think that's because we misunderstand them, I think that what a morning routine does

and not going in your phone maybe for the first 20 minutes of the morning, you start off your day with a sense of control, right? In a world that is full of uncontrollables, You know, Zoe, you mentioned before the news. Yeah. If you start off the day with the news and see about this war and this explosion and this, well, is it any surprise that you're going to be fearful about the state of the world? You're going to be anxious. It's going to affect your relationships. No, those things are downstream from the content you chose to consume first thing in the morning.

So, you know, I just wanted to broaden out stress because stress isn't just too many things to do. it's also, I think, that three-part model for happiness, I think when we don't live in alignment like that, I think it can be a stress. And another form of stress, which I thought would be really interesting to your audience, is to do with self-compassion, right? Now, to a British audience, self-compassion sometimes feels like, you know, what do you mean be passionate to myself? I think, I think the Americans really get self-compassion much better than we do here in Britain. But being kind to yourself, right? Not calling yourself a loser, not talking down to yourself, it's really, really important for so many aspects of your life. We know that self-compassion has positive effects on

your immune system, blood sugar, your desire to look after yourself, and so many of us, and this was totally me for much of my life, had a vicious negative inner voice. And Professor Kristen Neff is the world's leading research and self-compassion, as she has shown, when you talk down to yourself in your head, that is literally a stressor on your body. Levels of the stress hormone cortisol go up, which has a negative effect on so many different aspects of your health, right? So, you know, how many, if you guys, or maybe the listeners, sometimes say, oh, you stupid thing, or you always do that, or, you know, I used to, so I'm not judging, but you can change this. And in my book, there are loads of exercises to help people do this. It's great for your

health and it's great for your happiness. What about those people who, it's very difficult to control what they're doing? So whether they are a care, you say you care for your elderly mother, whether someone is looking after different family members, they have work demands, they have literally demands constantly and they have no time for themselves. So they feel completely stressed and very anxious all the time. And they, I presume, don't see a second in the day to actually treat themselves to do anything nice because they're fighting fires all the time. There'll be many people listening right now whose lives will not be their own because they'll be looking after other people. They have demands on themselves all the time. What do

they do? First of all, I really appreciate you bringing that up because it's really important to acknowledge that and be aware that it's great to talk about these things. But the reason we talk about them is so that people can actually do something with that information and feel better. Now, my father died in 2013, so 12 and a half years ago, and I used to care for dad for maybe almost 15 years. And I cannot, I just can't think back to that life now. I don't know how I coped, really. I was seeing dad and getting ready in the morning three times a day. I was also trying to be a GP, you know, had a young baby at home. I was just go, go, go the entire time. And what I learned whilst I was caring for dads is if on a Saturday morning, I gave myself

30 minutes for me. This is just, I knew no science back then about this stuff. I just was trying to figure out a way to actually get through a very stressful period in my life. I found that I didn't mind the demands on me for the rest of the week if I gave myself that 30 minutes every Saturday morning to do something that I wanted to do. So I think there's a really good principle there for people. If you are a carer, first of all, I take my heart off to you because I think carers are phenomenal what they're doing, both paid carers and unpaid carers. But could you take even five minutes a day for yourself? Are you really that busy where you don't have five minutes? And if you are, okay. But perhaps you do have five minutes to do something, something that you

enjoy. We know, Joe, that from the research, it shows us that regularly do. doing things that you love makes you more resilient to stress. At the same time, being chronically stressed makes it harder for you to experience pleasure from those things that you used to love. So a prescription I've given many of my patients over the years is five minutes of joy every day. And that could be anything. That could be listening to one of your favorite tunes in your kitchen with your headphones on and just dancing, right? It could be watching your favorite comedian, on YouTube for five minutes. It could be, I don't know. Cup of tea and a biscuit. It's literally, yeah, just something sitting down with a cup

of tea and a biscuit and a magazine. Yeah. And it's acknowledging, while it's not just doing it, it's also acknowledging, yet this is me doing something for myself. Now, does that remove the stresses from your life? Of course not. But it does make you more resilient to be able to face them and be less triggered by them. The other thing that can be really helpful is a daily practice of gratitude. Now, gratitude sounds really soft. It's like, what's gratitude going to do?

Look, I could talk to you guys for about an hour on the science of gratitude. There is so much research that gratitude literally can help anxiety, depression, mood, focus, sleep, happiness, but you have to do it. Okay, do it in a bite size for ourselves because I'm always quite cynical about gratitude. So tell me why it's important

and what you can do and how you can make it change your life. Well, there are many different ways to do it, right? So if you're really time pressured and you think, I don't have time for this sort of nambi-pambi gratitude stuff, okay? And I would challenge, and Joe, if you are someone who maybe is more skeptical of stuff like this, I would say, well, why don't you, for the next seven days, commit to starting each morning, right? So you get up and maybe you do want to look at your phone, but before you look at your phone, can you even, whilst you're in bed, just say, what are three things?

I'm really grateful for in my life, okay? But it's not just doing it once. Start your day every morning with that for seven days. And I can almost guarantee, Joe, that you will feel different about the state of your life. It is free. It doesn't take long. And it really does change the way you view the world. And just to explain one of the reasons why, I mentioned the stress response before to you guys and what it's actually there for. The human brain has what we call a negativity bias. And that negativity bias has kept us alive for hundreds of thousands of years. And what does that mean?

It means basically you are rewarded if you think that what's happening is more negative than it is. So why? Let's say you're in that hunter-gatherer tribe. And you hear a rustle. You hear something. you're not sure if that's the wind or if that's a predator in the bush, right? It's much better for you to think that's a predator in the bush because if you're wrong, it doesn't matter. If you're wrong the other way, you're dead. So that negativity bias has kept

us alive. But in the modern world, that negativity bias is playing havoc with our mental well-being because most of us, not all of us, of course, most of us are physically safe in our day-to-day lives. So we are, you know, we're interpreting everything as a threat. Gratitude is the opposite of that. It helps you actually go, wait a minute. Yeah, maybe there are things in my life that I don't like. But these three things are pretty awesome. And it's so simple, Joe.

And I was skeptical maybe seven, eight years ago when I started doing this. I do this every morning. I ask myself three questions every single morning. With my morning cup of coffee, I literally write down in my journal three, things. What is one thing I deeply appreciate about my life? What is the most important thing I have to do today? And which quality do I want to showcase to the world today? And I promise you, those three questions have changed my life. It's just a very intentional way of starting each day. The first one is a question of gratitude. The second question, in a world where everything

feels equally important, it makes you choose one thing. It doesn't matter what you choose, but the act of choosing it. So sometimes it will literally be, it will be a work thing. Sometimes it will be, you know what, I'm not really seeing my wife properly for the last few days. We've just been so busy. The most important thing I need to do today is when my kids go to bed is spend some quality time with my wife. Whatever it might be, it just helps you choose what is important. And the third question is probably my favorite one, which quality do I want to showcase to the world today? Yeah. So much of who we are is simply who we were yesterday. We're just repeating our past behaviours. But I honestly believe, Joe and Zoe, that you can change your life any time you

want, but you've got to spend a bit of time thinking about that. So I'll often put down in the morning, I want to show the world the quality of compassion today or patience. And all that means as if in the day I'm tempted not to, I'm tempted to be reactive, it's just a little reminder. Hey, Ronan, you know, you said this morning, you're going to be compassionate. Why don't you turn the other cheek here? Why don't you look at this a different way? So I love this. I hope that all makes sense.

But these simple things, they do make a massive difference. I've learned to do gratitude a while ago whilst going through a bit of a tough time. And that's the way that sometimes I stop the negative voices in my head. And when I'm stressed or anxious or worried about things or the things that are out of control, it is such a simple practice and it usually begins with my kids. I'm so grateful that my kids are safe and my kids are well and it usually starts there with those lovely little things and I'm well and I have a safe home and I have. And it's incredible the power of that, you know, stopping the negativity in your mind and just calming you down. Joe, I'm a massive advocate for

for gratitude. No, I mean, I am obviously very grateful for everything in my life. I just find it hard to fit it, to fit it into the, you know, the literature. It's just stopping. Yeah. It's just stopping that. Yeah, well, I find it hard to stop, I guess. Something I really wanted to pick up from the book that I loved. And it really made me think of my granddad, Fred, who was a person who would talk to everybody, wherever he were. And I think it's something that's definitely rubbed off on me. I think my dad was always chatting to everybody as well. And there's a person. And there's, a really lovely idea in this book, about talking to strangers. And I loved this, because this is something that our society has definitely affected us all, is sometimes we don't talk to

people. And I know there are lots of people who are very lonely. And my kids, it drives my kids mad, because I'll always chat to people. And my kids, like, you don't know that person, you're just chatting away. And it came from my granddad is, just talk to people. You don't know what someone's going through in their day. And sometimes a little bit of communication with another human can make such a difference to your life and occasionally to theirs. And this is something that you mentioned in the book. I love that. Yeah. So I'm really glad you picked up on this chat here. It's one of my favorite chats in the book. And just sort of relating this to what we've just been talking about, you know, this can be so powerful, especially if you're someone who

struggles with your moods, right? It really can change things. And why is that? Okay. Because I'm like you, Zoe, I think I learned this from my dad as well. I chat to everyone anywhere. And now I see my son starting to it. I'm like, yes, it's rubbed off on him. I hope a good thing. But there's a sort of network of systems in the brain that scientists call the sociometer, right? And basically, the sociometer is always scanning your external world for threat. And what's really interesting is The research has shown that when you say hi to the barista or exchange a smile with someone in the supermarket, these are little micro signals to that sociometer that tell you, hey, everything's okay. My external world is safe. And if you put that through the lens of what I said about the three

ingredients to happiness, alignment, contentment and control, talking to strangers gives you a strong sense of control. Because actually, if you feel that people aren't talking to you, you don't know if the world around you are safe or not, that's a bit of an alarm sign. You don't know if it's my external world safe or not. So talking to strangers, I think it was quite a provocative title for a chapter, but I think it's done the job and getting people to think about it, that it's really, really good for you and good for them. Now, here's the thing, right? You may be someone like Zoe or me who naturally finds this easy. If you don't, I would say just start small, as if you're going to the gym and you've never been before. You're not going to go and try and lift the heavy weight.

You're going to just go and take the lightweight and see what it feels like. So next time you're in a coffee shop and ordering your latte or your Americano or whatever drink you like, could you look the barista in the eye when they pass it and say, hey, thanks so much. Or, you know, thank you so much The coffee you made me yesterday was gorgeous. Thanks so much. Just wherever you feel, you know, ready to start, you can build this up like a skill very, very quickly. And it's really, really good for you. So I'm a big fan of talking to strangers. Of course, in a safe way, right? I'm not talking to it about going to so random people, you're scared off and talking to them necessarily. But in a safe environment. And I think bring about technology for a minute,

just imagine, guys, 20 years ago in London, right? or any big city around the world. Imagine if you went to a coffee shop, what would be happening? Well, you know, you'd probably be waiting in the queue, looking around, you might see someone, you might chat to them. What do we do today? Like that. We're stuck head down in our phones, right?

So we've got opportunities for social connection, but these phones are literally bleeding it out of every aspect of our lives. And I think it's really, really toxic. So even just going to the coffee, I know this from many people. patients who had depression, if I could persuade them to get out of the house and go and actually do some of their work in a local cafe, even that would make them feel better because they were surrounded by other humans, even if they didn't want to talk to them. So that whole chapter is basically about saying, listen, we are social animals. We are wired for connection. You are

going to struggle if you live all of your days in isolation by yourself, on your computer or on your streaming platform, as often as you can, try and engage with people in whatever way that you can. And if you pay attention, I promise you, you're going to feel better. A really easy way of getting a social interaction happening is pay someone a compliment. I'm a big fan of looking at someone just going, God, your hair looks really nice today. Or I really love that cardigan you're wearing, like you say, a barista or anybody you meet anywhere somewhere on a train, just sort of just pointing out the good things about people and it'll get a conversation going. It'll make them feel really great. These little things, they sound like little things,

but they're literally everything. And they're a big part of our journey to happiness, I would say. Yes, absolutely. We have an email which comes from Kay. Hi, Joe and Zoe. After listening to one of your recent episodes about being in your 20s and trying to figure life out, I felt compassionate. held to reach out. My predicament is a little different. I'm in my early 40s. I thought I'd finally found my career path studying through Open University whilst working during my 30s, then recently completing a master's degree, only to now feel stuck, frustrated, and if I'm honest, a little bit lost. My husband and I have slightly unusual lifestyle in which we own a residential recording studio in the beautiful Welsh countryside. He's an incredibly talented producer and songwriter, and I

I've spent most of my adult life supporting him and the business we've built together. But our remote location combined with my desire to build a career outside the music world has stirred up a lot of emotions. And lately, I've been feeling really low. I'm sorry to hear this. My husband is my best friend and always has my back. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on something I think many women face. When we hit our 40s, it can feel like we're suddenly panicked and invisible

after years of being a wife, partner and mom, or their own needs. at the bottom of the list, it's easy to realize somewhere along the way we've lost track of who we are. I'd really value your take on this stage of life and how to navigate it from Kay. Wrong and there's a lot in that message and this must be something that you probably hear from quite a lot of your patients. Yeah. Well, first of all, Kay, thank you for your message and I'm sorry you're feeling the way in which you are at the moment. So you're absolutely right. I've heard this over the years from patience, from friends of mine. I think it's very, very common, particularly for women, I think. And there's many ways to tackle this. Okay, so one thing

I've seen, let's use women as an example here, okay? But of course, this also could apply to men. Often when a woman becomes a mother, and let's say they stop working, at least in the short term, and some people stop working, you know, for a long period of time whilst they are raising their children. They had a job before. Then they become a mum. Then at some point, their child might leave home and go to college or uni. And then it's quite common at that point to go, well, who the hell am I? You know, I thought as a mother, but now I don't need my role as a mother. I used to be a whatever, you know, a PR manager in my 20s and, you know, I'm not that anymore either. So who am I? And what I found really useful for people is to help them understand that all

all these roles that you have played in your life until now are not who you are. They're just roles that you've played. And like all roles, they tend to come to an end at some point. I actually think it's really helpful to think about what is it that represents the person you know yourself to be? And what I'm talking about here are our values. So I think a very important exercise for all of us, if we're struggling with our life, is to see if we can identify three of what I call our core values. There's a whole section in the book on this on how to do this, right? But what's really useful about this is you're looking for three qualities that represent the person you know yourself to be. And once you, you don't need to get it right first time. But if you tune

into that, and it may take you a few weeks to keep writing, maybe these three aren't right, I'm not sure about that one. Like, for example, I did this a few years ago, and my three core values are integrity, curiosity, and compassion. Now, I know no matter what happens in my role, you know, as a dad, as a doctor, as a husband, as a carer for my mom, I know that when I'm living in alignment with those three values. So, you know, let's say compassion, for example, one of them, if I'm being compassionate, to the barista, to the Amazon driver, to my wife, to my colleagues. I'm actually living in alignment with who I am. I may not like the state of my life at certain times. I may want to change things, but it's a really, really valuable exercise. And I would say to Kay, if you understand what your

three values are, you can start to ask yourself, how much of my life am I living in a corner of us with them and how much am I not? It's a great way to start tuning into yourself. So that's a first thing I'd say that has been helpful for many people, including me. The second thing I'd probably say to that is, and it reflects something we said earlier on in this conversation. When I've had patience in this position before, I've said to them, for the next month, I want you to really focus on your passions. So instead of stressing about, about, you know, what am I going to do? I'm in this remote location. I get that. And I get that must be challenging. What would happen if you engage with your passions as if you were a kid, right?

You know, there's many ways I can answer that question, but the two things that come to mind, which, Kay, I really hope you find useful. And feel free to send me a DM on Instagram if you do or you don't, and I'll try and help you a bit more. But I would say, try and tune into your three core values and ask yourself, how often are you living in a corner of them? And secondly, is there a passion you could re-engage with for the next 30 days? because I think that will reveal a lot about where you are in life and what you want to do going forward.

That's so brilliant. I found that with gardening. I think gardening has given me quite a lot. It's filled a gap that I had from where I wasn't working, where the kids needed me less. It's given me a bit of, it gives me time outdoors, it's time in nature. And then you watch things grow. And it seems like such a simple thing, but it's actually filled such a huge hole in my life. life and I really love it and it's become a bit of a passion. Kay, I totally am with you because I sort of have some of this as well and I've definitely sort of felt like that the last year. But I definitely have found having a bit of time and thinking about it has given me a bit more peace with that. So, Kate, and also, Kate, look, how fantastic. Wrong and just saying drop into

his DMs. Wrong. And this has been incredible. Can I just say it's been like, I feel like about a personal therapy session. It's been absolutely wonderful and I love this book and I would you know, if you didn't get what you wanted for Christmas, spoil yourself and order this fantastic book because it is such a good read and I really want to adopt so many of the things within the book and also we will be watching the show. It's called Live Well with a Drug Free Doctor. It's on this Thursday night, 8th of January, Channel 4, 8pm and of course, you know, on demand afterwards. And, you know, I haven't really done mainstream telly for about 10 years since my first BBC One series Doctor in the House for a variety of reasons. I've been more

focused on my own podcast. But really, the opportunity came up to do something that really encompasses my entire philosophy that I've been trying to share with the public for almost 12 years now, which is this idea that 80 to 90% of what we struggle with these days is actually driven by our collective modern lifestyles. And that's not putting blame on people, just to be really clear. I get that modern life is tough and challenging and stressful. But nonetheless, you know, so much of anxiety or low mood or gut problems or issues with libido, insomnia, you know, type two diabetes, obesity, whatever it might be, at their core,

a lot of it comes from the way we're living our lives. So this show is basically showcasing three incredible stories of people who used to really, really struggle, type two diabetes, depression, and chronic pain with someone who needed a wheelchair in her 20s, and now all of them basically are completely awful medication and are thriving in their lives, all from changing the way in which they live. So my hope, it's not about putting blame all people and making people feel bad. I'm just trying to showcase to the British public that, hey, listen, you know, the choices you make each day, as hard as they might be, really do make a difference. And I really hope that these three cases show the country that, wow, there is another

way to tackle our health issues because I don't think we're going to medicate our way out of the current healthcare crisis. There has to be another way. And that's the point of me making this show. So if you do watch it, I hope you guys enjoy it. Thank you so much for everything, for sharing all your advice, all your wisdom today. I'm sure everybody listening and watching right now will have absolutely loved it. Oh, well, guys, listen, first of all, I just want to say thank you for inviting me on. I've been massive fans of both you for years, so it's a real honour to come on your podcast and I really hope that your listeners get a lot of value from it.

Listen, a happy new year, so you're wrong, and good luck with this series we'll be watching. We loved it today. Yeah, thanks, guys. Take care. Happy year to you all, too. See you. Digit is a Persephonica production