Dig It with Jo Whiley and Zoe Ball - 73: Fearne Cotton: 'I Was Exhausted Trying To Be Likeable'

Episode Date: March 11, 2026

Fearne Cotton joins Jo Whiley and Zoe Ball for a brilliant, honest chat about her new book Likeable and the pressure so many of us feel to keep everyone happy.From burnout and therapy to people-pleasing and self-worth, Fearne opens up about the moment she realised how exhausting it was trying to be liked by everyone. They also talk about broadcasting in the early days, social media pressure, and why learning to forgive yourself might be the real key to happiness.Watch on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuEDcmFY-mY  Buy Likeable - https://www.waterstones.com/book/likeable/fearne-cotton/2928377365677 Follow Fearne on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/fearnecotton/?hl=en-gb Listen to Fearne’s Podcast Happy Place - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/happy-place/id1353058891 GET IN TOUCH📧 Email us: [e-mail]📱 Text or Voice Note: 07477 038795💬 Or tap here to send a voice note or message on WhatsApp:⁠ ⁠https://wa.me/447477038795SPECIAL THANKS TO OUR SPONSORSThis episode is brought to you by the Woodland Trust and Visit Scotland✨ Woodland Trust – Looking for a gift that really means something? The Woodland Trust lets you dedicate a tree, a bench, or even a whole area of woodland in someone’s name. It’s a beautiful way to celebrate a birthday, mark an anniversary, or remember someone special. Dedications start from just £20 for a single tree, and you’ll receive a personalised dedication pack with a certificate, woodland map and information about the site you’ve chosen. Every dedication also helps support the Woodland Trust’s vital work protecting and restoring woods across the UK. Start your dedication at https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/digit✨ VisitScotland & TripAdvisor – Dreaming of a spring escape? Scotland is full of breathtaking places to explore, from the wild Atlantic beaches of the Outer Hebrides to peaceful riverside walks in Perthshire. You could spend your days wandering coastal paths, discovering castle gardens, and enjoying brilliant local food along the way. Whether it’s a windswept walk to clear your head or a cosy stay in the countryside, there’s so much to see. Start planning your own Scottish adventure at https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/scotlandCREDITSExec Producer: Jonathan O’SullivanProducer: Samantha PsykAssistant Producer: Eve JonesTechnical Producer: Oliver GeraghtyVideo Editors: Danny Pape and Jack Whiteside

Coming up on Diggett, that moment of who the hell am I? Yeah. If you take away the work and you take away the kids and you take away the life and looking after everybody, who the hell am I without all of that? I don't think you can get to liking yourself unless you can make peace with your past. And I had a lot of that to do. I want to say, Fern, I'm really sorry that I never supported you more when you were doing the Radio One show because I had no idea how hard it was for you.

I was obviously subliminally worrying about what my therapist thought of me and she went, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm just going to stop you there. She went, how important is it to you that I like you? And I cried. Why am I only seeing women post about International Women's Day? It should be the men posting it and we sit back and bask in it. What's going on? What is this? All of that, right after this. Let's see, if I move the snowblower into the bathroom, move the skis and Christmas decorations into the dining room, will that give me room for the laundry? More, kayak and kids' bikes.

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Okay, but what if I don't have an accident? Well, just keep on, keeping on. Bell Air Direct, insurance, simplified. Conditions apply. Happy Wednesday, Jo Wiley. Hi, happy midweek. How are you doing? I'm very excited because we've got one of our favourites.

Yeah. One of our favourite lasses is on the podcast today. Fern Cotton, who in love and adore, I remember the first time I met Fern, was in a dressing room at the BBC, and Leslie, who did my makeup, said, you've got to meet Fern, you'd love her. and she came in and there she was all young and brilliant and vibrant and just right from that moment I thought this lass is absolutely brilliant. She's gone on and done so many amazing things starting our Happy Place podcast.

She's written so many books. She's helped lots of people. She's a fabulous artist and bloody good at her job as well. So we'll be catching up with her later, which will be really fun. Yeah, talking about her new book, Likeable, isn't it? Likeable, yes. Hey, did you do your salvage sister thing? What did you make?

What did you create? What did you learn? I loved it. It was a Power Tools course. So it's starting at the very beginning. And a huge shout out to all the amazing ladies that I did the course with. It was over in Falma down here in Brighton. And a fantastic carriest we had on the podcast, Salvage Sister, aided by the brilliant Jess.

And we went into the village tool in Falma and it was all about Power Tools. So the first thing we learned was drills, all the different gadgets, all the different attachments, what you want to be doing if you're drilling into brick or to, you know, plasterboard, all the different screws and stuff. It was great. And then she gets you using them and practicing and, you know, making a hole with a driver so you can put your screw in. And in the beginning, everyone's a little trepidacious. Everyone's a bit like, ooh, can I do this? And then we used like a sort of like a free hand electric.

trick saw. I think that was the most scared everybody was. People were really like, oh, God, because it just looks so dangerous. But actually, the power when you've used it, you're like, yeah, come on, as long as you're safe and we all had our safety glasses on and we're all sort of talk lots of the rules and you're learning about safety catches and stuff. And then one of my favorite tools that we've got to have a go on was a sliding saw. So it's all attached. And it's funny because you're looking, thinking, well, I couldn't have that bit of equipment at home. Could I? Could I do that? And you've had to go on it. You're like, this is what I need.

I need this sliding saw. What are you using for? Well, you'd use it to cut your wood to, you know, build your shed or build shelves to put up or build a kitchen. You know, I mean, things that once seemed impossible to me. I just did the course because I wanted to put some pictures up at home, which I'm going to be doing later. And then we did jigsaws. And so that was just part one and I'm going to go back and do

you can do part two which is more power tools but I think it just gives you the confidence to think actually yeah this is it's not rocket science and I guess once you've learned the basics you can put it into practice and I think that's really key my friend Ben yesterday were saying so

Kurti was testing me it's like what would you put into a plasterboard wall what are you checking for you going up checking the electrics checking up from down checking for anything else that might be there I was like, yeah, and he said, get on with doing something, because otherwise you're going to forget everything you've learned and then you'll be scared again. So just do it? So do you feel confident now? You feel capable? Yes. Amazing. So I loved it. That's me operating my drill. And I will now, and I will now, hopefully by next week, can show you some things that I've put into action. Lovely. So you don't need a guy in a tool belt. You've got your own tool belt. I don't need a guy in a tool belt and more. Thank you very much. You can do yourself. What else did you do? What else has been going on? I watched quite a lot of stuff this weekend.

I got in on Friday night and listened to Harry Stiles' album. We'll talk more about that because I've got my lovely new stereo system. Then I binged the whole of Vladimir with Rachel Vise, John Slattery, who I've always loved, and Leo Woodall. And I watched the whole, it's only half hour episodes and I watched the whole series on Friday night. And I really enjoyed it. And in the beginning, a few people have sort of said, oh, they're not very likable. But I think if you go with it, and it's a great story. about it's from a book that's been dramatized. I think Sharon Hogan's something to do with it.

I think she's one of the execs. And it's just a great story. There's a, there's two college lecturers, the wife paid by Rachel Wise, and her husband is being investigated for having affairs with his students. And she's known about it all along. And then she's got a bit of writer's block and then appears this very young couple who've come to teach at the college. But it doesn't go where you think it's going to go. It's really good fun. I really enjoyed it. And you did that in one night? I did that in one night. That's impressive. So what else did you watch? I watched Harry Stiles the concert one night in Manchester, which I watched, which was amazing. Shout out to anyone who got to be there. What a night. The crowd were going crazy.

thing that struck me, Joe, is that was on Friday night. His album came out on Friday morning. The crowd knew the words to all the new songs already. So I was thinking, wow, that's proper fandom, isn't it? They've got the record and they've listened to it. So by the time they get there, they're singing all the words. But also a lot of his songs are so catchy. Shout out to his band.

Sarah Jones, his drummer, oh my gosh, she's incredible. The choir were brilliant, the strings. and there are some real cracking tunes on that album. I played it on Friday. I really loved it. It was a great gig. And also the cameras follow him as he comes off stage. And he's like, and then he just lets out this huge big grin.

And I'm like, Harry, you are. He is smashing it out the park with his promo, isn't he? He really is. He really is. He did a really, really great speech. This was Harry talking to the people in Manchester. In a world that we have today that feels so chaotic, It's so easy to become hopeless.

And I see what you create together and there is just so much hope in here. I encourage you to keep being the change in the world that you want to see. There are so many dangerous things that feel so powerful. But love is powerful. Kindness is powerful. The world could use a little extra piece right now. So please do what you can. I just thought, wow, he's incredibly articulate.

He's incredibly smart. He is exactly the pop star that we need in the world right now to speak to people so wisely. There is a lot to respect about Harry Stiles. There really is. So I did my gig in Manchester, yeah, on Friday night. And we got off the train, me, Coco and Steve, disco. And it was like the whole station was just buzzing. And everyone there looked unbelievably glamorous and really dressed up for a night out.

And we were like, we went to boots to get some supplies. We were going, wow, God, Manchester is just, it's the place to be. It's really great. And, oh, look, they look fantastic. They must be going out somewhere. I wonder where they're going. And then, like, the penny very slowly dropped. And we saw this big Netflix sign.

oh Harry Stiles is doing a gig in Manchester tonight not just my nighties anthem show we were so oblivious to the fact it was happening but it was the atmosphere the air was just crackling with anticipation at Harry doing that show in Manchester on the Friday night and then the next day coming up to get the train again to go home and there were lots of people with massive grins on their faces

and there were a couple called Joe and Emma who stopped me in the street and they were like oh did you go to Harry Stiles gig And I went, no, I did my own gig, but how was it? And they went, oh, no, it was amazing. You know, we were really pleased. We swatted up. We listened to the album in the morning, and it just made all the difference. And he was sensational.

And they, yeah, they just couldn't speak highly enough of that gig. And they also, they're really avid diggers. So I just want to say hi to Joe and to Emma for stopping. And they were amazingly glamorous, and they were obviously massive music lovers. And then Joe sent me some photographs of some dahlias that she was putting in over the weekend. What a weekend. I know, lovely diggers who listen to us and also have a massive love for music like we do as well. Oh, brilliant.

It is that coming together. And this is what you're doing when you're playing those nights, Joe. Everybody's like humming together. And how important is that at the moment? You know, come together to sing, come together to dance. You know, come together to try and make a difference, I think, in what is a very scary world right now. Yeah. No, I do say at the gig, I said, this is like a safe space.

It's a happy place. It's where you forget all the stuff that's going on in the world. the madness that's going on at the moment, put all your fears and all the troubles away, the stuff that's going on in your life. And this, for this night, for this evening, this is your safe space. And this is where you can just dance and sing and have some relief and some release from all the stress that you're feeling at the moment. And people absolutely are doing that.

There was a moment when I played James, because obviously they come from Manchester originally. And I played James sit down. And I've never heard it go off quite as loudly as it did in that room that night. It was insane. We can see a little clip. There's me legging it up the stairs. Disco following me. Wow.

Listen to that. That's incredible. What a venue. Oh my God. The Albert Hall in Manchester, amazing place. Every person had their arms in the air singing. That's made the hairs on my arms stand on end. It's actually made me a bit emotional, Joe.

Yeah. I just probably have a cry. A happy cry. I get moved to tears quite often when they're singing, when everyone's singing like that, you know, channeling my inner Tim Booth, but without the dance moves. Tim, because no one can dance like Tim Booth. Next level. What do they call that kind of dancing?

It's called something, isn't it? We should have to get Tim on? I think it's five rhythm dance, yeah. His wife, he was amazing. She practices it as well, and they're both phenomenal together. And you get into an ecstatic state. It's not something I will ever do in my life. It sounds quite saucy, really, to dance that much.

So you were doing that, and I was dancing around my lounge to... Yeah. To Harry. If you've liked what you've heard so far, please hit follow or subscribe wherever you watch or listen. That way you'll get new episodes as soon as they're out. We also saw a little picture there of you with some black thing across your chin. What's that? Oh, my face mask.

Just for the chin area. I like it. Look how cool I am. It's because it was last night and I'm getting ready for the pod and because I'm desperate to get rid of any wrinkles and lines and look as good as I can in the morning and I opened the fridge and there was literally half a mask. So I'm presuming that India had gone in at some point, stolen my mask. She'd used the eye bit and left the chin behind. And I just thought, oh, what the hell? I'll just stick this on. Obviously, Disco Steve just snapped me straight away. Oh, we do love disco. Bless him. India and Alex have moved out now.

So the house is less of a party house than it was before, but it still has the essence of a party. But it's weird them not being here. It's really strange. But we went and saw their new place with my mum and dad and with Steve's mum and we went for a meal near their house and just oh my god the excitement of them beginning their life together and putting out all these this stuff that found in boxes in our garage for 12 months now and just being allowed to breathe and to begin their life together to put because they've not really had this chance before they've got so much equipment they do so much like india's a photographer and they ride bikes all the time and they've got yeah all this stuff and just to see them yesterday just

relaxing and going, this is our place, this is our new beginning, this is our life together moving forwards. It was just lovely. It felt like being on holiday. And the grandparents were so excited for them and looking around the house going, oh my gosh, this is so lovely for you. Really special. For me, like the garden, because I saw it at winter when everything was really dreary and dark. Now, going back yesterday and seeing the magnolia, they've got a magnolia outside the front of their house. And I was like, oh, Indie, because she doesn't care about gardens. all. And I was going, Indy, this is going to be amazing. It's going to be so beautiful. You're going to love it. And then they've got a fig tree and I'm pointing out, and roses everywhere. And she's just going, all right, mum, all right. And I'm like, no, genuinely, in years to come, you will be so thankfully you've got this garden. Yeah, she will. And she'll learn to sort of love those plants. And you'll be there, obviously, doing some free gardening. won't you? That's a new project for you.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no. I'll be there. I'll be fully employed by her. And she can just do all the food because we've got a great relationship. She feeds me, I do her garden. It works well. Yeah, that's a good working mother-daughter relationship. Oh, congratulations to them. That's really exciting for them. It's so exciting. As much as I feel weird about her not being here, I feel really excited about, for her for them. I keep looking at the flat where they were and it's dark. And I was like, oh, I'm not used to that. Normally the lights are on. They're buzzing around and they're doing stuff, but it's dark now.

But then that's completely overridden by the feeling of happiness for them. And I felt like a proper grown-up. I was like, oh, actually, I can put my feelings aside and I'm just really, really tough for them. It's just like a new chapter, I think. New chapter of the whole family. It's a weird thing, but a great thing. Just with the state of the world at the moment, there was something I wanted to mention just because we're all sort of worrying about everything that's going on around us at the moment.

And that thing of wanting to be able to do a little something for charities that are, helping. I just wanted to mention the brilliant Rachel Jackson who makes jewellery, she's fantastic. She has done sort of co-labs to support Choose Love, the charity for quite a few years now. She's done this brilliant, along with

Dorno Porter, they've done this lovely disco ball, which is available in gold. This one, you know, it's only gold-coloured, is £95, and they've done a silver one, which is £90. 100% of the profits from this will go to Choose Love. an amazing charity

who are just helping so many displaced people affected across the world in so many different countries they're also a really good charity for being able to fill in the gaps see where the problems are see where they're needed most in situations

so I wanted to mention them because I'm wearing one little disco ball today I've actually bought them for all my girls because it was like well that's that's something I can do is buy everyone a little necklace and then that will help and also you know you talk

you've championed it. The Help 2 album is out. War Child, another brilliant charity. They've been around for 30 years. They are busy helping to, you know, educate and support, you know, the mental health of children affected by war and the aftermath of war. And they are such an important charity. And their album came out on Friday. Help 2. And it is so good. It's been. been produced by James Ford and it features so many fantastic tracks. We'd obviously, you'd play the Art Tip Monkeys track. That's the first track on the album. But, oh, my goodness, Cameron, Winter has done a great track on it called Warning, which I think is sort of in reference to ice in America. And Olivia Rodriguez done a beautiful cover of the Book of Love. There are

so many, back for lashes, foals. There's so many great tracks on it. And I absolutely love it. And if you buy that album, you're helping to support War Child, again, a charity who are going to be helping so many people. It's so important at the moment. So if you're thinking, I'd like to do a little something, there's two ways that you can support a couple of brilliant charities. Absolutely. So we're very excited to be joined by a special guest for today's episode. She is a bestselling author, host of the amazing Happy Place podcast, which I know lots of you love. A 90's Nostalgia Queen and an all-round ray of sunshine.

here to chat about her brilliant new book. Likeable, it's Fern Cotton. I feel like there is a girl gang in broadcasting, and one of the key members is Zoe, and one of the other key members is Fern Cotton, who is sat right in front of us now. Welcome to Dig It, Fern Cotton. Oh, my God.

If I'm in that gang, then Life Made. Oh, totally. No, you are. You absolutely are. Because you guys started the gang. You started the gang, and I'm so honoured to be anywhere near that gang. Oh, you very much are.

Also, this is your second time. you've been on Digit because when I was reading the book last night, I hadn't realized that you were in a TV show when you were younger and it was called Digit. I totally did not know. We've stolen your show. It was the second TV show I ever did. It was a live Saturday morning TV show when I was 16. So I used to say hello and welcome to Digit every weekend for years and years. See, it was obviously there planted somewhere subliminally and we're like, this is such a good name for a show. You know, we think we're trailblazers. You were the trailblazer girl.

Oh, God, no, you are. Blame in it. Can I hold these up, please? So these are some socks that we were sent. Courtesy off Fern, because the book is coming out. It's called Likeable. And I was like, oh, I'll put my socks on this morning. And I'm just going to read out what it says on it.

And then I don't know if I can do that on here. You do swears on your podcast. Yes, you can. Yeah, we can. It says be less of a cunt. Yeah. Which, yeah, where did that saying come from, Fern? Well, to kickstart the promo for this book, Likeable, I decided it would be a fun idea to read out mean tweets about me that people have sent over the years, which was at first so confronting.

But that's the whole point of the book, is to feel a level of comfort with being disliked. And one of the disses was someone saying, oh God, you know, here she is jumping on the well-being bandwagon. And it reminds me of one of those NAF signs that says, be more kind or something. And I said, well, I'm going to make you a sign that says be less of a cunt. It's so good. It's so good, isn't it? So good, yeah. I think it's, this is where it all begins, isn't it?

I mean, there's so many things I could say to this point right now. But let's go back to the beginning of where this sort of book started for you, Fern. Brilliant therapist, who you call Sandra. in the book. Not her actual name. It isn't really, Sandra. Asks you a question. This is such a good question.

And tell us what that question was and why it made you want to write this book. Well, I was sort of rambling on about whatever was troubling me that week. But with a smile on my face and with disclaimers of, oh, well, I know I'm lucky. And, you know, I wasn't getting to the crux of it, the point of it, because I was obviously subliminally worrying about what my therapist thought of me. And she went, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm just going to stop you there. She went, Fern, how important is it to you that I like you? And I cried.

And I thought, why am I crying? What the hell is this? And I realized in that moment that I cared deeply whether she liked me or not. And that that might be the sort of lowest of lows that I'm caring that my therapist likes me, someone I'm paying to me. someone I'm paying to make me feel better. And I realized in that moment how bad it had got. And I think, you know, for all three of us and anyone who's in a public-facing job or a job where they deal with humans regularly, but especially as presenters, you have to be likable.

Otherwise, you don't have a job. So I learned that at a very young age. Like be likable, you know, placate everybody, shape, shift to be what I need to be. So everyone's happy and the whole of the UK watching likes me, which is utterly impossible. And then I let that seep into my everyday life, interactions with my friends and my family. And that isn't okay because I think you stop allowing yourself to show up just truly as you are on any given day. So that was, it was such a wake-up call for me. I can't even tell you. Can I just ask, and this applies to both of you, I think, because you both started in ball,

at a really young age and you were scrutinized by everybody when you were children, basically. And I wonder if that is where the essence of this comes from, just because you were so young, you weren't fully formed, you were just children trying to please people and being judged and taken on that criticism. Do you think that was very much a part of where this came from? Oh, yeah. Oh, without a doubt. I mean, luckily, there was no social media in the 90s when I started, So I didn't have an acute awareness of people having an opinion about me at all. I used to just do a show, go home, hang out with my mates in the park kind of thing. But I think I was still aware that I was treading on thin ice a lot of the time

because I didn't want to go back to just being a normal school kid. I desperately wanted to keep the job. So I knew that the adults in my life, you know, the directors, the producers, the big production teams I was working with, I knew that I needed to make them happy. And at that age, I didn't know who I was. I used to think, oh, what would Zoe Ball do? I'll be more like Zoe.

You know, I would just look at my heroes and try and emulate them and hope that that worked until I found out who I was, which was probably like a year ago. But I think I definitely was very aware that I had to please those around me. And then obviously when social media came in, actually when I started at Radio 1, you know, you've got that awful text dashboard. That text machine. Just going, you're great, you're a dick.

I love you. You're an asshole. And you're like, whoa, it's just so, there's so many comments, good and bad. And I don't know if I'm meant to take any of them seriously and your brain's exploding. That's when I think it really started to mess with my head massively. Zoe, would you say that was the same for you? Because I started so much later. I was in the public eye so much later in my life.

I was in the public eye later. I wasn't like Fern. And I wasn't as young as Fern. Definitely not. I was in my, I was in my 20s, I guess, 21, 22, I guess, when I started on screen at children's. It might have been 23. But to be honest with you, for me, trying to make people like me, that began for me a lot younger because of various reasons. And so it was always trying to entertain everyone at school and make, you know, the teachers like, you know,

there's various reasons that I've learned, things I've learned about myself years later like Fern. that I'm like, oh, that's probably where that began for me. So I think that kind of trying to make everybody like me started much younger, but for slightly different reasons. And I think there are a lot of people who, when you stop, in fact, when I read this book, Fern, it made me cry, actually, because it sort of speaks to a huge part of you. Like you say, that you don't really often know who you are

until so many years later when you can stop And whatever the reasons are for you stopping, whether that's, you know, there's a light bulb moment or whether there's something traumatic happens. And you suddenly stop and start to look back that you can then take it all the way back and realize. I think it's often a moment. And I find a lot of menopausal, perimenopausal and menopausal women have it is that moment of who the hell am I? You know, if you take away the work and you take away the kids and you take away the life and looking after everybody, who the hell am I without one? want that. And yeah, what do I want and what do I really think because I'm so used to saying yes or saying, yes, I'll do that for you. Or what are all those things. I found this book so moving for those reasons because it does take an age to look back and realize that you've been so busy trying to make yourself likable to everybody.

And it's not just people in the public eye is a lot of people, men and women, have this thing. And you look. back years later going, oh my God. You feel sad for younger versions of yourself. Like, oh my God, why did I put up with it? Or why did I let that person treat me like that? Or why did I stay in that job, relationship, friendship, even though I felt terrible. You know, I think we do definitely get to a point or an age in our life where we think that. I think especially with women, I do think there are men that suffer with this. But I think women especially because there's just so many more expectations and societal pressures that we're meant to live up to, whether it's like in the parenting sphere or even at work, you know, if you're like what you guys do or what I'm

doing or, you know, if you're a CEO of a company, you're meant to be good at it and perfect, but also, you know, you better be nice alongside it. You can't just be how a man would be, which is maybe assertive, more blunt and forward with what they're saying. You have to do it in a nurturing way. And it's like, what's that about? Why do we have to have like the soft, the soft bit still where men leaders or public speaking voices can just say the thing without having to smile at the same time. I think we've got so many more pressures on us that men don't have in the context of this conversation. Absolutely. And you go on to say, you know, that basically this kind of behaviour had a detrimental effect on your health. Yeah. Yeah, without a doubt.

I mean, I think if I, not that all of it is to sort of blame, I guess, for some of the things that I've been through physically or mentally. But I think they've definitely, my need to be liked has definitely impacted me in lots of negative ways. I think mentally, you know, I've had a really rough time mentally in my early 30s. And I think a lot of that was because it was a time where I felt very aware that people didn't like me or were taught. talking about me in quite a negative way and I didn't know how to handle that. I couldn't, I couldn't level with it. I just, I inherently thought there was something wrong with me if people were saying something negative about me, whereas now I can separate the two and go, right, that's someone's opinion, but I know myself. And I didn't have that confidence back then.

So that sent me down a terrible, you know, mental path. And then I think even physically with sort of some ailments and things that I've had medically over the years, We all know that stress creates tension and tension physically is going to manifest in some way. And I think that it's definitely attributed to some of that over the years too. Maybe not all of it, but certainly some of it. Yeah, you've talked about how it affects your throat. You've had issues with your throat. And you put that down to having never spoken up or not until now anyway.

Yeah. And that is how it's manifested in you. I think so. I mean, it might sound a bit too basic and literal. But I do think there's something in it that, you know, started in 2019, had a massive polyp in my throat or a cyst in my throat. And I was about to go and have it operated on and then by chance it dispersed naturally,

which saved me a hell of a lot of healing time because one of my friends was going through exactly the same as a singer and he was going through at the same time and he had about four or five month recovery period where he couldn't even speak after. So I massively dodged a bullet with having that sort of lucky natural dispersing moment. But then equally I had a,

a tumour in my face at the end of 2024. And luckily it was benign, so, you know, I've sort of managed to get away with things quite lightly. But I had to have surgery and a month off work. And I think it was another wake-up call moment of what am I doing? Like, I'm running myself to burn out in this cycle. You know, I get to burn out. And I'm like, OK, need to make changes.

Say no more. Leave something back for me. And then two months later, I'm back on my knees going, why am I feeling like this again? which I don't think is unusual. I think many women out there who are juggling work and kids and all the things, it's a lot. And we shouldn't be pretending otherwise. It's impossible at times, absolutely impossible. Let's be practical.

So people who are diggers who are listening to this right now, and how do you turn things around? Because you say that you think that the cornerstone of mental health is liking yourself. So if people are listening to this, they're watching this right now, how do they turn things around for them? How do they like themselves more? How do they move forward in their lives? Yeah, I think, you know, we hear a lot about you're meant to love yourself and, you know, that's the be or an end all. I think that's a big ask for us to sit here going, I love myself, yeah, you know, I'm definitely not there yet. I think liking ourselves feels a lot more achievable. But I think the one step before that, which certainly was for me, is forgiving myself. I don't think you can get to liking yourself unless you can make peace with your past. And I had a lot of that to do. And we've all made mistakes. We've

We've all fucked up. We've all done things that we regret. There's nobody excluded from that. And I think the more we can land on acceptance and go, okay, that wasn't great. But, you know, I moved on from it and I learned and I've grown from it. Rather than, I used to lie in bed at night, replaying awful moments over in my head again and again.

Torturing myself. Who's that helping? Absolutely nobody. And I would take other people's commentary from previous moments of my life as fact and I would go, yeah, I am an asshole, I am a dickhead, I am whatever, and I would, you know, apply it all to who I am and how I move through the world and I don't do that anymore. I flat refuse to. I know I'm not perfect. I know I've messed up. I know I've done things wrong. I know I've been clumsy. You know, I've done all sorts of things over the years, as we all have.

But I think if we can forgive ourselves, that is such a nice, peaceful place to be. And I believe I have got to that place. And I have days where I do really, like myself, not every day, because I think it's an everyday discipline. It's not a destination that you land at and then it's just great forever. I think every day you have to wake up and have that in mind. And I think that's, that is the cornerstone to all of it, because then without much effort at all, you say no when you don't want to do something because you respect yourself as much as you do other people or you don't put yourself in situations that make you uncomfortable because you value yourself as much as you do other people. So I think when you can get to that place of valuing yourself

and knowing that you deserve all the things that you want and all the mental peace that you want, then it will start to happen. I think most of us have been at some point or maybe are, you know, right now at the place where you don't value yourself. So you go, yeah, I deserve all this. I'm just going to, you know, I deserve to be punished. I deserve to be in a shit friendship, in a shit job, but not liking my life, whatever it might be. But we don't. We deserve to be happy. And I think if we can all really truly believe that and work from that place, everything is just so much easier.

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19 plus to wager, Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connix Ontario at 1866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Are there any things that you do to help yourself with these kind of situations that, you know, giving yourself positive messages, any sort of behaviour that you do? Because it is almost daily work, some of this stuff, isn't it? Yeah, no one wants to hear that, but it's every day forever.

Yeah. You know, we're all looking for the quick fix of what are these five things I can do? And then my life is amazing. It's like, no, it's every day we get up and we have to do it every day forever. And it is a real discipline. And I've started to do things like, you know, because I know one of my weaknesses, I guess, is falling into being a bit of a workaholic because if I have that sense of achievement, I can, in a kind of fake way, boost myself and go, oh yeah, I'm doing really well.

That means I'm allowed to like myself, which is a load of old bollocks. So what I've started to try and do is like last week I had Friday off. And I was meant to be writing another book, ridiculous idea, but writing another book. And I was on a deadline. And I thought, I don't want to write today. I'm not going to do it. I'm going to paint because I really, really, really want to paint. And it's going to make me feel happy and in the moment and in the flow of things.

And I allowed myself that. And I think all of us self-punish and flagelate to a degree. So, you know, on that, you might have a morning off or a Saturday where your kids are out or whatever. And you could have a lovely bath and really luxuriating that. but we probably would make ourselves go and clean out a cupboard or go and do that job we really didn't want to do. And it's like, no, give yourself a break. Do the thing that makes you feel amazing and, you know, to sort of treat ourselves like we would, someone we absolutely love. And I've really started to do that.

And the world hasn't ended, which is quite good. Funnly enough, it's all okay. It's all fine. You're right. I guess just taking that little moment for your. yourself, Joe and I've talked about this on the podcast that, you know, because we are, like you say, you're juggling. Kids, work, jobs, parents, you know, so many things, looking after friends, friends going through things, you know, and you just want to be everything to everyone.

And it's not always possible, no. So to take that moment back and then not feel guilty about it. No, the guilt is pointless. My best friend Claire, who is my sort of soundboard for everything, she says to me constantly, like guilt does nothing. It literally does, it doesn't make the situation better. It doesn't make the person feel more loved. It literally does nothing. We're just in the habit of it, especially women.

So I'm really trying to battle that one away. You see, I think it sustains me. I think I thrive on it. I just, I feel guilty about absolutely everything all the time. And I can't see a time when I will ever not feel guilty. I'm just always fretting about everybody and everything. Most men out there, they don't feel guilty about not doing the school run one day. or they've missed sports day or I don't think they do.

At the weekend, obviously, the International Women's Day, and I loved that Ellie Taylor clip from The Mash Report, where she's saying, you know, women have told everyone to just fuck off. And then she lists all the things that we're judged for. I felt a bit annoyed yesterday. I felt a bit irritated. I thought, first of all, why am I only seeing women post about International Women's Day? we know we're fucking great.

Like, where are the men? It should be the men posting it and we sit back and bask in it. What's going on? What is this? Disappointing that didn't happen, yeah. Yeah, and also, I don't know, I just think, you know, we're still, there is so much inequality still, even in our Western world. But if we look outside of that, it's terrifying, really.

There's so much disparity. Like, what are we actually celebrating? Like, it's not great. So we need it. We need the day. most definitely. And I obviously love bigging up all the women in my life that I absolutely do and will be screwed without. But is this a day where we all just go, yay, equality's happening because it's not. No, Sandy Toxvig did an amazing speech. Oh my God. And it was just about

how women throughout the, throughout history and throughout the globe right now are being let down and suppressed. And it was just so on point and so depressing. At the very end of it, it was just like, oh, yeah. There is so much work to be done. So much work to be done. There's that great clip of Will Ferrell saying, can women now be in charge because things might be very different? I mean, it would be. I think that all the time. I think that all the time, just give us a chance. Stop fucking up the world in our lives.

Just give us a chance. And we would not be fighting. We would not be killing people. We would be talking. We'd be communicating. Working things out. Yes. It's just, it makes me so angry.

Same. And so scared. It's horrendous. I'm very scared. Yeah. Really scared. My goodness. Where does that come from?

I was watching crufts on Sunday night. can I just say. Great escape. Oh my God. Croft's got me through the weekend. I cannot tell you. But it just ended. And Cass, it was just me, Cass, Coco, and Steve on the sette.

And Cass suddenly went, it's International Women's Day today. Coco, I'm grateful for you in my life. And Mum, I love you. I've wished for when I just burst into tears. Oh, God. That's gorgeous. Pretty much the first reference that anyone had made to it being International Women's Day that day. That's so gorgeous.

How sweet. My friend's husband actually said to her and her daughter, hey, I'm really sorry that we need this day still. And she was like, thank you. Thank you so much. I mean, there are loads of great guys out there. I'm not here going men are dicks. I love men, but the men in power, that's who we're talking about here,

because these are the issues that we have. I won't say, Fern, I'm really sorry that I never supported you more when you were doing the Radio One show, because I had no idea how hard it was for you. Please don't be sorry. When you were, not I am, but I was oblivious. That's the worst thing. I guess I'd moved on to my next thing, and I did not realize, what you were going through, that you were being taken apart or, you know, people were having

to go at you for doing that show after I'd done the Radio One show. I absolutely. And I think it's a sign of the times because I think we were all very insular and just kind of focused on our own things. Whereas now I think it's a lot more empathy for each other. And we're talking. There was no space to talk about any of it. You know, and I had other circumstantial shit going on that was bleak. And, you know, there was no space to even on air going, do you know, I'm feeling a bit rubbish today, but should we play some music and try and make it better? It was just like crack on with it and there was no room to be a human and, you know, it was so please you do not need to apologise. And I actually, you know, in the book, I mention both of you because you have been,

you alone have made so much space for other women to come up through the ranks of TV and radio and to, you know, be at the forefront of it. You know, you know, You know, you're both mentioned in the book, I think, a couple of times because you've been massively important in my own journey. And also, can I just say, the best night out I had last year was it your 90s night, Jay Wiley. As you saw, because I was pretty free and Lucy Goosey that night. I was having the time of my life. You drank my rider. I did.

I drank so much vodka in your dressing room. It was the best night out ever. You were so happy and it was all I could see, I'm DJing and all I can see in the background. and it's fun, having the time of her life with her, you know, the love of her life snogging throughout. And it was, it made me so happy. And I felt like we didn't know each other deeply enough until that, that felt like a really significant night because I don't think we'd ever kind of seen each other and relax and gone, hi, how are you?

Have a drink. Like, just have some fun. It was a real turning point. And I was so happy for you. I've got to come back. I'm coming back honestly. And your set was just the best. Every song.

Song after song. I was like, this is just, it was heavy. Yeah, it was a lovely night. Should we move on to gardening? Gardening. Are you good? Are you green fingered Fern? Not there yet, not there yet. I see it in my future very much so. I can feel the edges of it. Yeah, I'm not there quite yet. I get an obscene amount of pot plants from my mum. My mum and auntie Karen cannot come round to your house without leaving a thing. Which winds my brother up no end. He's like, I don't want any more candles. I've got to 8,000. in the cupboard, but my mum has to bring a thing. So she walks in, before she's even said hi, she goes, here's some magazines and it's like, House Beautiful and here's a pot

plant and here's some pot-pery and you're like, oh my good God, every time. So I've got a million plants in my house, which I'm having to look after as well as children, cats and a fucking tortoise. But I'm not there yet. I'm not green-fingered. Me neither. I don't like

potty plants in the house, I'll be honest with you now. A popular opinion. I do tend to kill them. You need those ones that water themselves. But you do have something for sew and tell, Fern, which I'm quite excited about. Well, I do have one house plant I'm quite proud of sits above a cabinet, and I like the way it drapes, and I thought I was going to kill that within weeks. And I think I've had that about two years now, so quite proud of myself. But also, I've got, well, I inherited when I moved into my house, the most magnificent magnolia tree. And this is a timely

chat because it only blooms for about seemingly two weeks before it all falls on the floor and I have to bloody go and leaf blow it up outside. But for these two weeks, I just stand at the window every day going, oh my God, this is the best thing I've ever seen. It is magnificent, pale pink leaves and the shape of little boats. Oh my God. I'm obsessed with it. Yes. Oh, beautiful. Stunning, stunning. I've seen it on your Instagram and I always think. I'll post about it relentlessly. It's too much. Yeah. Because it seems so tragic. doesn't it, that they are so beautiful for what can feel like 20 minutes sometimes. Because if you have a change in the weather or the wind or something like that, you're like,

oh my God, it's gone. There's one, the lovely family opposite me have one. It is huge and I just keep finding myself looking out the window waiting for that peak moments. Peak bloom. But it's also metaphorically a very good lesson for us all in terms of like enjoy these little moments because it's a femoral and it goes and we've got to be in it and like, admire the beauty before, because everything's cyclical and it's going to come and then it will go

and then it will come back again next year. So I love that little yearly reminder. And the moving of time, which is too fast, quite frankly. Tell me about it. And crate digging? Yes. What have you got? Let's talk about crate digging. What music recommendations? Well, the album I've listened to the most, and I listened to this on New Year's Eve, I was meant to go to DeVina McCaaw's house. and I was so excited. I bought a new dress. I was so up for a big party. And then I got the flu.

And I've never felt so ill. I was so full of phlegm and I felt shivery. And so I didn't go anywhere. So instead, I stayed at home and I played, I discovered this album and then played it all night and I've played it all year since. And it's by an Irish artist called Joshua Burnside. And the album is called Teeth of Time.

And it is so atmospheric and moving. had a little cry to it in a good way, like a good cry, and played backgammon and then went to bed at about 9pm. But I can't stop playing this record. It's just so moving. And like, when I did, Who Do You Think You Are a million years ago? Well, we discovered as a family, my mum's side of the family is Northern Irish, and she had no clue. She was like, I'm definitely going to be Swedish, okay? And I was like, oh, exciting. They're like, you're going to Belfast. Okay. So my mum was like, what? I thought I was all Swedish and exotic. So I think there's like a bit of me that is connecting to the Irish roots. I really feel it when I hear the beautiful sing-song storytelling. And it's heaven.

I love it. Oh, nice recommendation. Thank you. We'll be checking that out. What's your next book about? Well, I'm actually, I've gone back to fiction now. So I had started writing a fiction and I was 48,000 words in. And then I had this idea for likable.

So I had to awkwardly phone my literary agent and go, So you know that book I'm halfway through writing? Am I allowed to ditch it? So then I finished Likeable and I went back to write this book and I couldn't get into it. So then I had another idea for another fiction. So I had to call her again and say, is it all right that I ditched the first fiction for another fiction? And I will get back to that one at some point. I'm just not there yet.

So I'm writing a fiction that I don't know when it's going to be out because I'm very, very behind on the deadline. but it's a dark comedy, I would say. And I'm really loving the character and it's just a lot of escapism. So I'm going to be getting back to that this week at some point. Yeah, I'm on this painting tip at the moment. I can't stop painting. So I do have to balance that and do a bit of writing at some point. Do you sell your paintings?

No, I don't. I just like doing it. I mean, I've been sort of cagey about showing my art on it. Instagram until quite recently because I thought, oh no, that's for me. I don't want anyone saying whether they like it or not. But actually, I'm really, I'm proud of it and I don't mind if people aren't into it, whatever, I love it. So it just makes me happy. I love the process rather than the outcome. I just like the day that, you know, where I can just, I don't think, I can't think when I'm painting. So my brain just sort of flatlines. And it's the only thing that

brings me that. So, yeah, I love it. One day I will just. paint and have 80 cats. That's the man. That is the dream. You are that woman. That is the dream. Fern, I don't know how you do it all. You are a phenomenal lass.

I've always known that. But you know, you're writing books. Happy Place has brought so much to so many people I know and love. And just amongst my close girlfriends, you are very loved girls. So, you know, it doesn't matter if you're likable or not. Because, you know, who gives a shit. But I just need you to know that we do all love you. Well, likewise, I'm so grateful for both of you.

And growing up with both of you very much as my absolute heroes to now be in a position where I can text you, it's always still very exciting. And it's also good that you know we're both idiots, really, as well. Yes, that we're all Muppets together. You meet your heroes and you think, oh, my God, they're amazing. And then you realize we're just idiots, just suffer. We all are. And that's okay. You are an absolute inspiration. When I see everything that you're doing, I'm just in awe of your talents. You've got so many different talents. And you're incredibly hard

working. And I know sometimes it's hard for you to put yourself out there and to do these things, but you do it. And you bring a lot of joy to many people. That means a hell of a lot. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for letting me be on your brilliant podcast. I love your podcast. I just love it. So thank you. Thank you, darling. Good luck with the book. All right. Lots of love. Lots of love. Bye, bye, darling. Digit is a Persefonica production.

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