Dig It with Jo Whiley and Zoe Ball - 97: DIG IN: Understanding Anxiety with Owen O'Kane

Episode Date: June 1, 2026

Zoe and Jo have a fascinating conversation with therapist and former NHS Mental Health Lead Owen O’Kane. Owen suggests that by working with our anxiety rather than against it we can often see better results. He offers lots of tips and advice about how we can change our relationship with anxiety, and reassures us that we are not alone in dealing with it.Owen’s book Addicted To Anxiety is Out Now.As Owen says in the interview, if you feel you need support, do reach out to your GP. More information can be found on the NHS website: https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/mental-health-services/how-to-find-local-mental-health-services/ Subscribe to our Substack!Get extra free content each week by subscribing here: https://digitpod.substack.com/GET IN TOUCH📧 Email us: [e-mail]📱 Text or Voice Note: 07477 038795💬 Or tap here to send a voice note or message on WhatsApp:⁠ ⁠https://wa.me/447477038795SPECIAL THANKS TO OUR SPONSORSThis episode is brought to you by QVC🛍️QVC — Summer gatherings always seem to end up in the garden, so why not make the space feel extra special? Explore My Garden Escape at www.qvcuk.com and use code QDIGIT for £10 off your first order. Minimum spend applies and full terms are on the QVC website.CREDITSExec Producer: Jonathan O’SullivanProducers: Samantha Psyk and Harriet ThurleyAssistant Producer: Eve JonesTechnical Producer: Oliver GeraghtyVideo Editors: Danny Pape and Jack Whiteside

Coming up on Diggett. When an anxious thought comes along, there are the most tantalaising thoughts. I joked about it once and I said, it's kind of almost like porn for the brain. I started to have panic attacks. I think it was for grief. Yeah.

And then I started to have crippling anxiety to the point where I was struggling to work. I would really, really welcome a conversation about how we help our children. When they are having anxiety and it's genuinely stuff they've got to tackle that you have no control over. I've honestly found myself,

the words quite often. Let's be honest, let's lay our cards in the table. If you're having a hard time at the minute, trust me, you are not on your own. Honestly, Owen, I have to say, I actually feel quite emotional listening to you today. Honestly, I think that's going to be one of my favorite episodes. All of that right after this. Hi, Diggers. We've got a very special guest joining us today, someone that Zoe and I are both really excited to talk to. He's a psychotherapist, former NHS mental health lead, and a best-selling author. His most recent book is called Addicted to Anxiety. which explores whether there's a connection between anxiety and addiction. It offers a guide for how we can deal with anxiety in a healthier way.

Please welcome, Owen Okane. Morning, Owen. Owen, welcome to Digit. Today you're speaking to Generation Anxious. There are many, many, many of us in that club, and it's a term that you've coined yourself. Is this as bad as it's ever been, do you think, this generation? I think there is a generational problems right across the board with anxiety.

I've talked a lot about the addicted component yet, people getting addicted to the process of anxiety, which was the whole premise of the last book. I do believe that's true. I mean, certainly in clinical work, I'll see it everywhere. I'll see it a lot with younger people. But I'm seeing it with, you know, university students.

I'm seeing it with people in middle age, men and post stages of men, going through kind of transitional phases and interestingly older population group. So I think definitely over the last five years, it's problematic right across the board. Can you just explain why that is for us then? Why?

For people who are not familiar with your work, what the hell is going on? I think there's a whole load of things going on behind. I think that we know more about it now and I think because more people are talking about anxiety and they have the language to talk about it, it means that there's just a lot more awareness than we would have had, say, 10 years ago. Now, there's an upside to that because it means that the conversations are useful and they're helpful. The flip side of the coin is that we start to kind of pin clinical language on stuff that's maybe not clinical. You know, having a bad day is not the same as having an anxiety

disorder or being worried about something doesn't mean that that's abnormal or it's a problem. So there is a lot of stuff going on. But I think the healthy thing is there are more conversations, but it's also remembering life's tricky at the moment. There is a lot going on and we have way more exposure than we did say 10 years ago. I mean, you would have got the news every day or listen to the radio, whereas now our phones will constantly give us information about what's happening in the world.

So I think it's just a whole mixed bag of life, really, that means that we're just kind of primly more hardwired for threat than for worry. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? It's sort of like phones, I think COVID had a huge effect on everybody. I know that, you know, as we look at the news, the situation of war, the worry about fuel. There's so much, you know, the state of the planet.

There's so much it does feel like sometimes we are functioning at a very high level of anxiety. I've definitely seen it in, like you say, in younger people and older people. And I thought it was just menopausal me. But it really, it really has massively affected everybody. What can we do, Owen, when anxiety is very much in the driving seat. because this is the wonderful thing about you and the work you do and your fantastic book is teaching us ways to cope with that and perhaps change that message for ourselves. Probably one of the things that I do differently, and I sort of on-upon, on-apologetic about this. I think if you give people a lot of techniques to get rid of their anxiety,

it's actually counterintuitive because actually you're never aiming to get rid of anxiety, because anxiety is a good human, it's a healthy human mechanism, it's meant to be there. And I never work as anxiety just as a mechanism happening to you. You know, and most people think, oh, anxiety is a bad experience I'm having, or it's something that I'm having that I shouldn't be having. Whereas actually, I think it's a part of you that sometimes might get scared, and we all have that part. You know, as a part within us, it might get a bit overwhelmed, might get a bit frightened.

And if you think about it logically, if you spend a lot of time and energy into trying not to feel that or to get rid of it, well then what you end up doing is you end up rejecting or abandoning a part of yourself. So for me, a big part of the work is if I'm working with somebody and I notice that they're really resistant and they have a really negative relationship with their anxiety,

my work is basically getting them on board with the fact that what about kind of creating a new relationship with the anxiety? Because I think when you get there, you're halfway there. And then the techniques then make more sense and they land more fully, Whereas I think if you just give people loads of techniques, then what they'll do is they will take, I mean, look, don't get me wrong,

stuff helps, you know, meditation, yoga, ice baths, going for a walk, good foods, all of that stuff that we talk about every day are really incredibly useful. But if I stop and I sit with someone and say, tell me why you're doing that, and the response is because I don't want to feel this, well, then it's not a useful use of the technique. So it's, it might sound a bit odd, but what you're doing is you're taking that part. of you by the hand, literally, and you're saying, it's okay, you're anxious today, it's no drama, we're going to work with us. And that kind of creates something very different because you can learn to negotiate with your anxiety and you can learn to navigate it in a very, very different way.

And for me, that's personally where I see most breakthroughs. When I did addicted to anxiety, the initial concern was that people might be a little bit offended by the title, although they might think, I'm not addicted and blah, blah, blah, you know, it's not my fault. And it's never about fault or blame. But I guess the conversation I really want to have is that most people play a bigger part in their anxiety than they're willing to admit. And that's a hard conversation to have, but it's a really important one because I believe that if people recognize that they're a part of their anxiety and that they feel it more than they realize, well, then they're also part of the solution. And I think for me that that is so, so important that we have to move away from

the cure your anxiety, heal your anxiety. This technique. is going to heal you and all is going to be well for the rest of your life. I mean, frankly, it's bullshit. It's not a truthful conversation. So it's about like, you know, we all get anxious. Like, and it's a furt of transparency. I was laughing today coming on to this podcast. So I'm off on holiday tomorrow for a week.

And I had to hand over my dog today to the dog walker who looks after the dog for a week. Now, that in itself, it's only the beginning of the day, but just handing the dog over and getting his bag packed and giving a whole list of the do's and domes and stuff. I mean, you immediately feel your own anxiety levels rise up with just one small micro event. It's a very normal protective. You know, it's a normal reaction. And we all have hundreds of these interactions every day. But it's about learning to see them for what they are. That this is a protective part of me. It comes up. It means well. It means to support me. It means to help me. I just need to learn how to work with it in a more helpful way.

If you're loving Digit so far, hit follow or subscribe that way. you'll get brand new episodes as soon as they're out. What advice can you give us them? Because people will have this anxiety reaction for many, many different reasons according to, is it upbringing? Is it your nature? Is it nurture? What are they, where does it all come from?

Never one thing in my experience. I mean, the research will tell you that it can be nurture. For some people, it can be biochemical. We know that at certain points in life, for example, menopause, it can be more problematic because of the chemical changes that are happening in the body. It can be a transitional phase in life. It can happen after grief. You know, there are a number of things that can trigger anxiety.

But in my experience, it's never one thing. I think it's normally a collection of things that feed in together. And I think for the majority of people, most people learn to worry at home. I think most people come from cultures where, and very often it's not even named. You know, certainly I grew up in an anxious family, but we wouldn't have called it an anxious family at that time. But my mum and dad, when I look back on it now, they worried about everything. Now, they wouldn't have said they had anxiety.

So I think when you come from backgrounds or cultures where worry is seen as a good thing, there's a principle in psychology called positive beliefs about worry. So very often we're taught that to worry is a good thing and it's a useful thing. And that often can get inherited and people kind of take that on that actually if I don't overthink, if I don't overanalyze, if I don't watch out for the problem, something might go wrong.

So that's one component of it. that's where the overthinking, the over-analyzing, the catastrophes, and that's where that all comes into play. And when it comes to anxiety, most people believe that those thoughts are true. And this is why I talk about the addictive component, because when an anxious thought comes along, they're the most tantalizing thoughts ever. You know, I joked about it once,

and I said, it's kind of like porn for the brain, because anxiety thoughts are, they're quite appealing in some way because we latch on to them and we think, God, I wonder is that true? And then we start to question the thought and of course the brain will then give more information and then suddenly it's spiraled

into something very, very different. So it's teaching people that these thoughts that you have, we have two types of thoughts, you've got functional thinking which is the everyday stuff, what am I having for dinner, you know, I'm having a party tomorrow, what do I need to plan for that? That's very normal, functional everyday thinking whereas our anxious thoughts are very, very personal and we get caught up in them, we believe them to be true.

They often exaggerate, they often move very, very quickly. And it's teaching people that actually the majority of these thoughts have no relevance or significance. 90% of what we worry about in a lifetime doesn't come to any fruition. So it's the art of kind of learning to watch. All right, okay, this is just an anxious thought. I don't need to get over involved. It's okay for me to step back and almost kind of watch the thought.

and allow it to be. And that's difficult for most people because they want to get involved. Whereas actually when you teach people, it's okay, you can stand back. You don't need to get deeply involved. Then they can allow the thought to come and go. And similarly with the emotions,

I mean, anxiety comes with the in-laws. It doesn't come as a singular emotion. You know, it brings fear. It brings dread. It brings overwhelm. It brings exhaustion. There's a host of emotions that anxiety comes along with. And most people, when you're working with,

them and you say, okay, what happens to you when the emotions come up? They will immediately say to you, will I try and stop them? Or I try and push them down. Or I try not to feel them. You know, they might have a glass of wine or do whatever it is that they do to not feel the emotion. Whereas actually, when you think about emotions, they have a beginning, a middle and an end. And emotions need a natural flow state. And what most of us do is we jump in, believe in the emotion shouldn't be there. So again, It's teaching people. I mean, literally what I'm saying here is you're teaching people to get out of their own way. Yeah. I think anxiety often brings a powerful message. There's often an underlying message about something that we need to be doing. We need to slow down. We need to re-evaluate.

We need to tweak. We need to look at ourselves differently. We need to look at our lives differently. So if you're willing to work with the kind of the gold that anxiety often brings in, not only is it useful, but actually it's teaching you something as well. This is fascinating stuff. For me personally, and I know everyone's sort of thing is very different, I've always been very laid back, you know, and worry about the regular things. But I started to have panic attacks, and I think it was from grief. Yeah.

Because that's sort of when that started for me. And then along came perimenopause as well. And then I started to have crippling anxiety to the point where I was struggling to. work or get through a show. And it's so, you know, crippling, I think is, is the word. And I just didn't really know where to go with it. And you go to the doctor and it's like, should I try antidepressant? Should I, I try this? And that, that feeling of when you're in it, of not being able to get out of it. Anyway, I've come out of it. I've learned a lot about it. I've, I've had some brilliant help from some great people along the way. And I tried one of your exercises

last night because I'm not I'm not really anxious at the moment but there are a few things that I've been a bit worried about and so I tried one of your fantastic exercise from the book where I wrote down a list of some of the things that I'm a bit worried about at the moment and then just the exercise you write down the things that you're you're worried about and then you're talking about how much power you have over them and I tell you what Owen I slept so well last night because is each of those things, I sort of give myself a little, well, that isn't really that. And this is this. And maybe that's your feeling.

And just as an exercise in my little book, it was so helpful to realize that a lot of these things that I've been really worried about at the moment are really not that bad. Or not necessarily my faults. They're probably going to work out. There's things that I can do about some of them. So thank you. That was a really helpful exercise. It's called worry time. And you know, for anybody listening or watching it,

you basically write down all the key things you're worried about. And what we discover is when we write them down, I encourage people to take five, 10 minutes out, just get them all down on paper. Then you go back and you look and you think, okay, well, what can I do about any of these worries at the moment? And for most people, you know, it's like, well, actually nothing. You know, there's maybe one or two.

And actually what it does is immediately is it reduces that sense of burden, where it's like actually, I don't really need to be managing it. I mean, if you think of a definition of anxiety, it's an intolerance of uncertainty. There's a big clue there in the word intolerance. So if we're not tolerating the not knowing or if we're not tolerating the discomfort, that's what's creating the problem.

So you're kind of teaching people, look, you know, you can't manage all of this at one time. So it's okay to be aware of what they are, but it's equally okay, that's not for now. I'm not denying it. I'm not pushing it away. But what I am doing is and saying, okay, I can put that aside for now.

And that doesn't need to come with me. I don't need to bring that to bed. I don't need to bring all of these worries to bed with me every night. It's okay. And that creates great freedom for people. And I guess that is a liberating thing about this work. And thanks Zoe for sharing about your own story, because I think that's such a powerful thing that this happens.

It's happened in my own life. You know, there are periods when it can be like a tidal wave. And when you're in the thick of it, it can feel very disempowering. it can feel like there's no way through and that it's never going to end. Whereas actually, what I've learned over the years, both personally and professionally, is that if you can work with the fact that, okay, this mechanism, as uncomfortable as it's feeling, is actually working with you.

It's trying to protect you. It's trying to keep you safe. It's trying to get you to downregulate. It's doing what it thinks it needs to do at that moment in time for protection and safety. And actually, if you learn that, it's just basically that skill of learning to accept it. and work with it and negotiate with it. And bit by bit, then suddenly you notice that this freedom starts to come and things start to unravel.

Whereas actually, if you think about the amount of effort that goes in to not experience an anxiety, what it will do is it will create more resistance and it creates more tension. And even when you think about, you mentioned menopause or which I know is a big issue for many, many people. And it's interesting, similar for men, you know, this is a conversation we don't have. Men have these hormonal transitions in their 40s and 50s as well, but the hormones begin to change, and it has a detrimental effect on anxiety as well.

But despite the chemical changes, what we forget is that there are a lot of other things going on, you know, that it's a transitional phase of life. You know, things are happening. Kids are leaving home. Yeah. Elderly parents, you know, we're moving towards the latter stages of our lives.

We're letting go of being younger. We're letting go of a lot of our old experiences. we're letting go of relationships, we're letting go of people we've lost. It's never one thing. So, of course, how could we not be anxious in these periods? It's a very, very normal thing. And I think if you can think of the anxiety

as something that's just simply trying to anchor you and get you back to a point of stability, now, albeit I know that the process can feel really uncomfortable, but I think if you can view it as, okay, well, this is trying to get me back to dry ground. It's trying to stabilize me. trying to look after me in some way, then you start to see it very, very differently. So the way you manage the thoughts, the way you manage the emotions and the behaviours in that

you adapt around your anxiety, start to change very, very powerfully. So what I would say, like for anyone who struggles with anxiety, and I promise you wholeheartedly, it's not a permanent state. And it is something that can be navigated and work through. And if you can truly, truly listen to what it's trying to communicate, you know, in my early 20s, I, and it's, and It's a really interesting one because as therapists doing this job every day of the week, it's really interesting then when you're on the receiving end or something happens to you. But I remember having panic attacks on my early 20s and there was a lot going on for me. There was a lot of transition.

I was living in Ireland at the time. I was coming out as gay to my family and that was creating a huge amount of uncertainty for me. And the panic at the time was doing its job. It wasn't the wrong thing. And I think if you can see it that way, it's powerful. I did a talk last week. I was doing a big corporate event last week and before I went on, this happens to me every time I do a corporate event, normally about 30 seconds before I go on. I will feel that knots on my stomach, heart rates and fast, mind starting to create stories about what could go wrong.

I'm really familiar with it and I know what it is. And if you think about what anxiety is trying to do in that moment, it's my anxiety in that moment would be saying, okay, if I can scare you enough, I'll get you out of here. to do this event and then you won't get rejected, you won't screw up. No one's going to say anything bad about you. So if you look logically at what the anxiety is trying to do, what it's saying is, okay, let me scare you enough and I'll get you out of the building and all as well. But then of course, when you look at the price tag, I don't get to do the event. I don't get to do the work. You know, I think it's a lost opportunity. So it means well, but I can see it for what it is and take it with me and say, no, we're going to go and do the event and we're going to have a good time.

And I'm going to use the energy in a very different way. So rather than use the energy is something that's working against me, I'll kind of say, okay, let's use this in a positive way. So how do people, like the people who are listening to this right now and I've got many friends, many who are going through the menopause and who can't leave the house, who will, and we've talked about this so many times they'll make date, or we, you know, we do it. You make dates, you make arrangements and that feeling, all those feelings come up. and you're just like, I'm just not going to go there. I'm not going to do it.

I'm going to spare myself. What are the practical steps? What can people do? It's a brilliant question. I mean, two of the most common behaviors around managing anxiety or reassurance seeking and avoidance, you know, there are the two things most people will do because I think, okay, well, if I avoid it, then I'm safe. If I seek loads and loads and loads of reassurance, then I'll feel better.

But actually what we know is that it maintains anxiety longer term. So I guess one of the most powerful things you can do. do is like say for example, somebody was stuck at home and they can't get out or they don't want to go out. What I would say is, I'd encourage you to do the opposite. I want you to go out today. And even if that means that you literally walk around the block, I'm not saying that you do something massive that's going to flood you, but what I want you to do is I want you to go towards the discomfort. And I want you to do the opposite of what your anxiety is telling you to do, even if it's a small step, because then what you do is you work against the pattern and you, you're, you're

you start to create new patterns. And like inadvertently, every time you do that, you then, there are these changes in our neural pathways. So like every single action, every new behavior, every new reaction creates a new response. So what you're saying to people is like, I know it's going to feel uncomfortable. I know your brain will be saying, don't do it. I know every part of you will be finding reasons not to do it. But then when the person does it and they're able to move towards it, then the sense of triumph

that they've managed to do that today. and this is a step in the right direction for me. And I think that is the one thing about this work. It doesn't have to be massive steps all at one time. It can just be okay. What would one next action look like today? And this is the key thing to say here. That doesn't mean that it's going to make you feel joyful and on top of the world.

It may make you feel uncomfortable and it might make you feel uneasy. But that doesn't mean that it's bad. It just means that, okay, you can learn to recognize that that emotions come in and you can learn to work with it and you can learn to get comfortable with it. And then most people can adapt quite quickly to that. And then when they do take the action and think, God, I managed to do that or like, that was a massive step for me today. Then suddenly they feel liberated.

And of course, then it frees them up to think, all right, okay, maybe tomorrow I can do a bit better or maybe tomorrow I can do a bit more. So it's such as kind of gentle steps. You know, the next step, I say this in every part of my work, the, you know, the only step worth managing is the next step, that's all. You manage that next step. Yeah. And that's, that could, that can be enough for now. And that can then create a new foundation and a new sense of stability. And then, okay, I wonder what the next step looks like. And then from that there, then you see progress. If you can think about how you would respond to a young child who's having a

difficult time, if you can just adapt that approach and give yourself a little bit of that, then honestly, like you're you're so moving in the right direction. You know, and that's, you know, in psychology we call that, you know, the compassionate voice, but that's what the work is. It's literally taking all of these parts of us, you know, not only the anxiety, but the insecurity, the self-doubt, the parts of us that might feel overwhelmed or a bit sad. You know, we're taking all of these parts by the hand when they come up and say,

it's okay, I'm going to look after you today. What is it you need? How can I help you? So you're developing that relationship with yourself. And then, you know, life just becomes much easier. Do you know what? At this age, I find life very, very difficult. Being part of that sandwich generation and having children who are grown up and trying to help them navigate the world when, you know, really big stuff happens to them and there is a lot to be frightened about and those anxieties are actually very practically real. And I would really, really welcome a conversation about how we help our children. I've got children ranging from 17. So we've got GCSEs, we've got going to uni, we've got moving away. I've got older kids who are doing with some really big stuff. When they're are having anxiety and it's genuinely stuff they've got to tackle that you have no control over and you can't really, really help them. What do you say to them? How do you help them? I've honestly

find myself lost for words quite often and I just wish that I knew how to calm them, how to give them hope. I mean, it comes back to that point I made earlier about uncertainty. You know, sometimes there isn't a solution. Sometimes there isn't an immediate answer. What do you say then, Owen? I spent 10 years working with people who were terminally ill. So as a palliative care specialist, and that in turn led me to do my psychotherapy training. And one of the things that you were often dealing with, there is that point I made earlier,

you were often dealing with a lot of uncertainty. There was no predictability, there was no knowing, there was some very difficult emotions around. And one of the things I learned in that work in that period of time was that sometimes it's okay not to have an immediate answer. Sometimes it's okay not to have a solution. Sometimes it's okay to just be with what is,

And I think parents very often, and I'm not a parent, but I imagine most parents want to give solutions and they want to rescue and they want to give reassurance. But actually sometimes, particularly with children, and this is going to sound, and I don't want parents coming at me here because I've been misinterpreted here before for saying this here. Very often, children, not only young children, but children in general will come seeking lots of reassurance. And that's very, very understandable. And a parent's instinct will be what, you know, will be to give us. solution. And that often isn't the best thing for anxiety because sometimes the solution may not exist. And actually teaching people how to tolerate the not knowing in the discomfort is a really powerful gift to give someone. So sometimes the real reassurance is actually just being alongside

people. Yeah. I acknowledge and this is difficult and I know it's not easy. I don't know what the immediate answer is. I don't know what the immediate solution is, but I'm here. You know, I'll always support you. you know, I'll always help you. What I, you know, I often say to people, what I do know about life is that no situations are permanent and that, you know, if things feel awful in the moment, that doesn't mean that that's a permanent state. So you're helping people see that whatever's going on at the minute,

this will transition. I don't know what it transitions into, but it will transition and there are always way through and we're just going to manage this bit by bit, one step at a time. So I guess in some ways what you're doing is you've been present for them, you're being available. but you're not trying to rescue or solving the situation or create an immediate solution that doesn't exist.

Because inadvertently what you end up doing is, you end up colluding with that belief that certainty should be there. When actually, like the one thing I've really learned about life, the older I get is, you know, the reality for all of us is we're just getting through and we're working our way through and none of us have a clue sometimes what we're doing. and none of us know what's coming next. And actually, that's how life is meant to be.

It was never meant to be completely ordered. It was never meant to be completely predictable. No one said that it was going to be perfect and that everything was going to go well. So actually, it is that, okay, I wonder can I just work with what is at the moment and that can be enough. And whatever comes next, and I don't know what that looks like,

I'll manage that when it comes. So it's just kind of learning that, you know that great enough. There's a brilliant analogy, actually, has just come into my mind. You know when you watch somebody who throws a brick or a stone or something into a lake and you will immediately get ripples in the lake?

Yeah. And those ripples will, they'll settle down eventually. Now what most people try to do in life is when they're going through a crisis or a big moment or their anxiety has swept in, what they try and do is if you think of the lake

and the ripples, most people jump in and try and stop the ripples. Some happening. And of course, the opposite happens. you know, it's like we create chaos. So it is that, you know, it's really learning. And this is where the anxious brain and anxiety management get into conflict. Because the anxious brain is all about solution.

The anxious brain is all about getting answers. The anxious brain is all about getting outcomes. Where actually the real essence of this work is about actually being steady and being able to be around what is. It's never about getting the immediate solution or getting. the immediate answer. So often what we're doing is we're acknowledging that the brain is automatically going for fixing the solution or finding a solution, whereas actually sometimes the real power is found in that place of steadiness, that place of stability. Yeah. So I wonder what it's like to just work with life as it is without feeling the need to jump into the lake and control the ripples.

I mean, everything you're telling us is so helpful. And I know people, people listening will find this so helpful. But we must point out as well if someone is really struggling with their mental health at the moment. And, you know, if they need to seek professional advice, where's a good place to start with that? Because for some people, it will be more than this. I mean, I think for most people, a good place to start is, you know, look, find the one person. And I think everyone can find one person in their life that they can go to and say, look, I'm finding this stuff. And find the person who isn't then going to immediately come back

and say, God, you think you're having a hard wait to hear my story. You want that person who can listen and hear what you're saying because I think that first act of just kind of letting the guard down and just bringing it out. And like, let's be honest, let's lay our cards in the table. If you're having a hard time at the minute, trust me, you are not on your own. There are many people struggling here.

and particularly with anxiety, this is a very real thing. So there's nothing wrong with you. You're not a problem. You're not a disorder. You're not defaulted if you're having a tough time. But I have a rule of thumb that if the bad days are starting to outnumber the good days, and that's happening regularly over a few weeks, that's probably a pretty good indicator to go along and have a chat with your GP.

And there are various things out there. I mean, look, obviously you've got the NHS. And I know waitlist are eyes. So don't get me wrong. I'm not going to sugarcoat over that. But there are support services out there, even within the NHS, that short term can help. It's always worth having the conversation about medication.

I really get angry when I hear people shut that conversation down because I think for some people short term and sometimes for people longer term, it can be a useful support. And I think shaming people, you know, saying, oh, you shouldn't take medication. I think it's a conversation and every situation is contextual and you just have to take it case by case.

So, you know, a GP will normally have that conversation about whether it's a useful support. I think therapy, look, I'm a therapist. I do think good therapy. And I mean, you know, find a therapist that will challenge a shit out of you and that won't, you know, it's not there to feel all lovely and fluffy.

You don't want a therapist who just let you come in and splurge and just talk about everything or give you a lot of reassurance. You want a therapist who will, who will be able to be with you and hold you and support you, but challenge you and actually allow you to look at yourself and hold responsibility. I think don't underestimate the power of everyday stuff.

Like all of these things that we hear on social media every day, but we know that like getting out for 10 minutes every day, just walking in nature. Like every piece of research supports that really strongly. Whatever exercise you can do, just bloody honestly do it, even if it's a few minutes a day because we know chemically it helps. Yeah. The foods that you put into your body,

body. If we have foods that are high in sugar and fat, they are inflammatory foods that we know anxiety is an inflammatory process. So think about the foods that you're putting into your body. We know that if you're dehydrated, it can make you feel angsty and stressed and more anxious. So that can aggravate it. So make sure you're getting plenty of fluids. Think about the people in your life. You know, I talk about two people. You know, you've got the radiators and the drains. If you've got a lot of people in your life, you're taking your resources. You have to stop sometimes and evaluate who the people. are in your life and where your time has been spent.

I think the word no is crucially important. Most of us say yes when we want to say no. I think when you're managing anxiety, that word no is sometimes really important. I think perspective, I think this is an important thing. If I'm in the books and certainly an addicted to anxiety, I think I talk about, I often say to people, imagine on the days when things are really, really tough,

you know, imagine you're stepping into a helicopter. And helicopters when they're taken off, they normally pull back and there's that moment where they just hover. And I think there's real power sometimes. And imagining that you step in to that helicopter and you pull back and you look in in your life and you look in in the experience. And you kind of think, all right, there's a lot going on today. It's a few difficult situations. My mind's in overdrive.

There's some big emotions around. I'm not feeling great today. But rather than get saturated in the experience, you look in on it and you think, okay, this is what I'm. I'm experiencing today, but it doesn't define who I am. It's an experience I'm having at the moment. That can be a really useful way of not getting pulled. I describe it like quicksand. You're not getting pulled in.

So you're learning to observe and look in. So like there are so many things that we can do. Like we know meditation, yoga. I've mentioned all of those earlier. We know the research is pretty good on them all. But what I think is look, you can never be overly prescriptive. For some people think yoga doesn't work for me. breathing techniques don't work for me.

So you've got to find what is it that brings it down a few notches for you? Honestly, Owen, I have to say I actually feel quite emotional listening to you today because I just think there's as I hear you talking, I'm just thinking about all the situations and all the people I know

who would be really helped by hearing you speak and you are an amazing human. Oh, thanks for you very much. Thank you for having these books. And having gone through stuff yourself, you know, learning to understand that. I'm just telling myself,

stop trying to rescue, stop trying to rescue. Just be alongside someone, just hold their hand. It's excellent advice, it really is. It's addicted to anxiety, how to break the habit. And it's Owen O'N O'Keyn, thank you very much for talking to us. Thank you, guys. It's been a pleasure of thank you. I've taken so much away.

Thank you, Owen. Honestly, I think that's going to be one of my favourite episodes. Oh, Bercia, thanks. Wonderful. Really nice to meet you, Owen. Thank you so much. Digit is a Percephonicah production. Thank you.