Dig It with Jo Whiley and Zoe Ball - DIG IN: How To Avoid an Argument Escalating - Relationship Special with Karen Doherty

Episode Date: September 7, 2026

Jo and Zoe are joined by relationship therapist and neurodivergence specialist Karen Doherty. Whether you’re dating, divorced or decades-married, there’s something in this episode for you! Karen covers everything from how to stop an argument from exploding, how to recover intimacy when things get friend-zoned, and why not putting the bins out could save your relationship!You can find out more about Karen’s work on her website - https://karendohertycoaching.co.uk/about/GET IN TOUCH📧 Email us: [e-mail]📱 Text or Voice Note: 07477 038795💬 Or tap here to send a voice note or message on WhatsApp:⁠ ⁠https://wa.me/447477038795SPECIAL THANKS TO OUR SPONSORSThis episode is brought to you by 📱 Starling: the bank that helps you organise your money, build great habits and stay in control of your spending. Do life together with a joint account - find out more at starlingbank.com/current-account/joint-bank-account. T&Cs and eligibility apply for Joint, Personal and Easy Saver accounts. Individual Personal accounts are required.🌿 Ancient + Brave — Support your skin, joints, bones and overall wellbeing with Ancient + Brave's responsibly sourced collagen. Their Wild Collagen is neutral tasting, dissolves easily into your morning coffee and is designed for optimal absorption. Ancient + Brave is a certified B Corp, with marine collagen sourced from MSC-certified wild-caught fish. Head to ancientandbrave.earth/planet and use code DIGIT for 20% off your order.CREDITSExec Producer: Jonathan O’SullivanProducer: Harriet Thurley & Samantha PsykAssistant Producer: Eve Jones & Lucie RichardsonTechnical Producer: Oliver GeraghtyVideo Editors: Cameron Laird and Jack Whiteside Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Coming up on Digit. One of the things that I urge couples to do is to say, right, tomorrow and night we're going to sit down and we're going to talk about this rationally and calmly and walk away. Yeah. Walk away. Know when to call it. And it's not date night, okay? I can't stand that notion of date night. No.

Because by the time everybody gets there, everybody's too tense. Everybody's too tired and you have too many drinks too quickly because you're waiting for the food. And it's all gone wrong. Have a conversation around intimacy, not necessarily sex, but. Intimacy. When did we last really have fun together? All of that right after this. So all of the diggers who are watching right now, you're more than welcome to join us. It is Monday. It is September and it is Diggin. And oh, blimey, this is a seismic day for you, Zoe. How are you feeling? I know. I start my new job today, 1 o'clock. Greatest Hits Radio.

Greatest hits radio. I'm so nervous, Joe. Why is it so difficult? It's like starting a new school. it's like starting it, well, it is starting a new job. It's like being the new, the new girl, the new person, the odd one out. And all you've got to do is chat. That's kind of, you know, what we do every day and it's what I do for a job. So it shouldn't be that tricky. But you just get so nervous about new gigs, don't you? I think everybody does.

Lots of people will know exactly how I'm feeling today. Maybe some of our diggers are feeling this at the moment because they've got stuff going on too. But it's the constant churning time. coming flip flip flip and that sort of catching my breath of just speak all you've got to do is be able to speak speak it'll be a heartbeat you know you'll say your first words and then you'll be away you'll just be like oh this is my natural thing this is what I do this is what I do brilliantly and you will be fine anticipation is always so much worse isn't it it really is the buildup I've been having the stress dreams I've got the chewy jaw um I've got that thing where I'm like

what if it's a disaster and then I have to do the thing that lovely Dr. Chloe taught me many years ago was, what if it wasn't a disaster? What if it went really well? To be honest with you, I've had the, trying to choose the first record has, I'm quite glad that that decision has finally made because that has taken up so much time. Do I want to go 70s, 80s, 90s? Do I want to go something rad? Do I want something with a huge buildup? Do I want a woman for the girls? Do I just want my favorite band? Oh, I just overthink everything, Joe. It's exhausting being inside my brain. No, I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is.

I mean, you know, you're obviously tormenting yourself about your first record, but then also as a DJ, it's so important to us. It's not to anybody else at all, but it's really important. I remember starting the evening show when I first did that and I started with White Stripes and Hotel Yorba. And it meant so much to me because it was like a mission statement. It was like, right, this is the kind of thing I like. Hopefully you do too.

Let's, let's, I hope you'll be along for the ride. So, I mean, I can't wait to find out what you've done. chosen. And I'm trying to second guess now. I'm trying to think what you might have chosen. To one of the joys of overthinking things. Diggers, do let us know the things that you are overthinking at the moment as well. When your brain won't give you peace. Sometimes I wish I could just open the lid of my head, take my brain out, put it on the side, just go, have a little nap and just go about my business. So when you do your show, do you have snacks, do you have nibbles? Because how long are you on for? Is it four hours? On for three hours. I think it'll go by really

quickly. I really love my team who've helped me put the show together. They're so cool. There's such a laugh as well. So if you want to find out what my first record finally is, you can tune in Greatest Sits Radio from 1 o'clock. I'm on from 1 till 4 every weekday. And you're going to be ace. Oh, thanks, my lovely friend. If you're enjoying Digit, don't forget to hit follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. Now, whether you're dating, divorced, decades married or it's complicated. This week we're chatting about love, relationships and how we make them work. And who better to do it with than couples therapist, relationship coach, and you're a

diversity specialist, Karen Doherty. Welcome to Digit, Karen. Hi, Karen. Karen, I'm so excited about having this chat with you. Where do we even begin? I guess a good place. to start. Is it, is, because we're all busy, we're living busy lives. And often your relationship is, is the first thing that gets shoved to the side because you're looking after, you know, parents or your

kids or you're working. When we, do we need to schedule time for each other? Oh, yes. I mean, all day, every day clients come back and I said, did you do that that I asked you to do last week? Have you done it? Oh, Karen, we've been a bit busy. Oh, and. And it just drives me mad. What's the priority here? The kids, the house, the work. Okay, but what's it all for? What's it all for?

What do the kids want? They want you too happy. They want a happy home. They want, you know, their parents having good time. And it's sort of people just think, what? What? I'm not thinking like that at all. But it's obvious it's got to be a priority.

It has to be these days. So what do you tell people to do? What I'm really intrigued now when you give them their exercises, How, yes. What was their homework? I've got a library full of homework. I'm just going to take some notes here. And if we could just meet in a week's time, that'd be great.

No, the absolute first one is the, exactly what you say, prioritise the relationship. And it's not date night, okay? I can't stand that notion of date night. No. Because by the time everybody gets there, everybody's too tense, everybody's too tired. Then if you've got a bit endy in the picture,

then the restaurant's too loud or the seating's wrong or the, you're not at the right table. or, you know, if you've got all that, then by the time you've sat down, you have too many drinks too quickly because you're waiting for the food, and it's all gone wrong. And then the last thing, the last thing that happens is that one of them goes, now, let's talk about the kids. And it's just, it just all falls apart. So we're definitely not doing date night. Okay? We're definitely not doing that. That is not on the agenda. But, you know, a good day out, a good walk, regular, regular connection. just some regular connection. And you probably have to schedule that. It probably has to be, look, you know, Friday nights, forget it. We're not doing dinner. We're not, we're not doing

anything. Friday nights or hour night, something like that. And a variety of things, you know, don't, don't dread it. Don't get to the point where you dread it. And don't always think you're on a promise or there's going to be sex or there's going to be something at the end of it. It's just, it's just a connection. It's connecting. But it has to be, you, you just both have. have to really think about it and say, actually, we need to do this. It's hard. Even though you don't want to be in the same room with each other at that particular moment, asking for a friend. Yeah, no.

Sorry, disco. That is really common. You know, you can't bear to be in the same room. But look, what happens? If that's the case, then it goes, you go weeks with avoiding each other. Well, that really helps, doesn't it? You know, that silence and cold treatment, that's really the way forward. I mean, that just leads to a dead end and it just builds. It builds and builds. So even if you can't stand the sight of each other, it's probably good to say grudgingly, I suppose we're going to meet up on Friday night, very grudgingly. It is that thing, though, isn't it? That you kind of, sometimes you just need to spend some time with each other to remind each other why you'd fell in love or, you know, fancied each other in the first place. I was wondering if there's any, truth in that thing of having conversations that might be a bit tricky when you're on a walk because they're both facing forward and you're not looking into someone's eyes going,

now listen, I've got a bone to pick with you. Yeah, definitely. The intensity is less. The other good place, loads of my clients have meaningful conversations in the car because they're going on a journey, so they're both looking forward. And I think there's something about, you know, when I say that night that you've scheduled, I think there's something about just hanging out, just being at home. Come on, let's just sit down, have a glass of wine, just, you know, get into something comfy and just talk. I think there's something about that rather than be performative for each other, just actually remembering this is why we're together. It's not, you can't just curl up and watch a film. You've got to commit to some sort of meaningful

exchange, but just being, just being together. What are the main issues that people come to you with then? What's the most common thing that you're confronted by? Breakdown and communication. Yeah, that's it. It's always that. We can't speak to each other. We just fly. The breakdown in communication is if people are coming in, you know, for help.

There's always, you've got the other type of presentation, which is a couple in crisis. So there is an affair. There's a breakdown. There's some something that's broken. It's the straw that's broken the camel back. And so they're coming in in crisis. And that needs to be sorted before you can really do the work. So there's crisis management.

And then, you know, identifying the issues, understanding where they're both coming from. And then if it's communication, there's a whole range of approaches to communication. And I tend to use a bit of both. And these days I work, I work really quite in the present. I'm very, I'm more concerned with present behaviors than past influence. I'm more concerned with how you're fighting, how you're speaking to each other, how you are behaving towards each other and making real changes to that dynamic than than actually, you know, digging into the past.

And the history, yeah. By the time couples come to me in the main, they've done quite a bit of that. They've done quite a lot of digging in the past and they're coming to me for sort of, they're coming to me for change. So I'm working really quite in the present, behaviourally. And dare I say it, I can be quite directive at times, but I say that quietly. Do you ever, I mean, you know, sometimes when people come to see you, can it become quite apparent between the two of them and with the world?

they do with you on whether there is a future in the relationship. Because I love that idea that some people might go and get some help thinking, oh, actually, this is the end of the rainbow for us and we're moving on and whatever, but actually might find with some help that there is still a lot of love there and that they could move forward. And then I guess you've got the other thing of people trying to hold on to something that is kind of over. I see my job very definitively as a facilitation.

I'm going to try very hard to get the conversations going, the hard conversations about whether this is truly over, you know, those sliding doors, have they missed each other enough time for it not to be possible to come back? But to be really honest, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's in very few cases that present in my room. Anyway, they're coming with some sort of hope. I mean, of course there. I mean, I get asked, question, well, when do I call it? When do you call it? Well, I don't call it, but maybe there are some people, they've gone past the point of being able to repair. Or they've done so much work and they're still not on the same page. And that means actually that they probably do end up parting. They've done

the work, but it's just not happening between them. And they feel happier to separate. And I think my raise in debt is that if people do end up separating, they are fully cognizant of why they're separating and that they can bridge the gap eventually from, you know, all the hurt and resentment to remain some sort of friends. What do you see happening for people in midlife? Because a lot of those will be our diggers who are watching or listening to this right now. There are many things going on where you have the menopause, which is kicking in hard and affects both the women and also it has a knock on effect with the men as well. There's the end. empty nest syndromes. And there are age parents. There are lots of different things happening.

What kind of advice do you give to people in that situation who are just struggling? Oh, I love this midlife phase because really it is, it's just such a massive transition. Massive transition from what was to what is. And you know, you say the menopause for the women, there's also this sort of existential crisis that normally goes on for the man in the couple. You know, have I achieved? Have I, am I where? I want to be? Did I get that? Did I manage that career how I wanted it to be? Am I at the place that I'd fantasized about reaching? Have I reached my potential? What do I want next? Am I over? You know, they're having their midlife physical crisis as well. Errections aren't quite so frequent.

They're more tired. They're a little bit less tolerant of everything. The kids have worn them out. So they can be, you know, you've got a pair of grumpy. You've got two grumpy people, really. haven't you, knocking around a house with the kids thinking, oh my God, mom and dad, honestly. But I love that. I love the potential of that. I love the potential when a couple comes in and says, look, do you know what? We've still got another 20 years to go. Why?

Why would we stay together? And then I say, well, why not? Why wouldn't you? Let's have a think about it. You know, well, let's have a think about it. Yeah, maybe you've come to the end of the road. But actually, you've done all the hard graph now. You've been through the identity formation in the 20s. You've done your 30s, career, house, 40s, kids, 50s, kids, relentless careers, all of that. You're just, you know, postmenopause. And as you get to be allowed to be grumpy old man, actually, that's a whole new beginning. You know, women are more empowered postmenopause. They feel better. They're brighter. They're able to get up and go again. Men can be a bit grumpy, but they can be, you know, they can be cajoled. It's a whole new.

It's a whole new arena for them to sort of step into. And I really like working with couples at that age. And you've got to have a bit of hope in it, OK? Because it does feel absolutely dreadful. It does. You know, it feels awful. And did somebody mention, did you mention empty nest? I mean, that's.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, these days, you should be so lucky to have an empty nest. Nobody's got an empty nest. Three quarters of my clients. Three quarters of my clients. of my clients that thought, oh yeah, we're done. Actually, they start to come back. They're coming back. And so now you've got adult and adult in the house, you know, sort of you've got to

renegotiate that. It's not parent-child. It's an adult sharing space. But even that is exciting. You know, who wants to get old and fuddy-duddy? Bring in those. Let the kids come in. Let it be a bit more exciting. Add another dimension to that 50 plus. You've made me feel really positive about it all already. And this is so encouraging. In fact, I really hope that any diggers who are listening, who are going through stuff and their relationships will be quite inspired by this, that this could be a really good time to do some work. I'm just wondering, you've spoken about a couple's deal. I really love this. Can you tell us a bit more about that? I do a couple's deal, okay? So I can do it at any time, but I like to do it towards the end of

my program that I work with people. I normally only work six to 12 sessions, okay? And it's a, it's quite a, it's, it's quite a fast program. It goes over 12 sessions, where however long that takes. But at the end, I quite like to get people to think about, right, what was wrong when you came in? All right, what was wrong? What was, what's right? Here we are in the present. Now, tell me about the next year. What are you going to, what's going to happen for the both of you next year? And the interesting thing about what I do is that I will have separate forms. So one does theirs, the individual autonomous form. What do you want personally? What personally went wrong? what personally do you, I want to aim for, both parts.

And then what should we do as a couple? What's going to happen to us as a couple? Where do we want to go for a couple? So it's great. I dole it out at New Year. That's always a good time. But a lot of the time at the end of the work, I will sort of formulate, I suppose, formulate what we've created together

into something a little bit formalized, like a contract, and get them to think about it and sign off and say, okay, I'll check in now. I'll check in in six months and we'll see how you're doing. So it gives you a focus, yeah. Yeah, it's a focus. But it's also you remember, you remember the work. You've got it.

Okay, all right, so we did do something about this. Let's think about that. We did manage this. The lodger, he was, I was getting, I was so excited about talking to you. I think the lodger was slightly nervous about me talking to you. I was like, I'm going to come back with so many ideas after this chat. hate me, he'll hate me for the couple deal. Can I just ask if someone is, if you have a massive row, if couples are like completely having a very confrontational relationship and there is something

that they can't get past and they will have the biggest row in the world, how do you, what's your advice to resolve that? If people are watching right now and they're like, I just, I can't get past this. I don't, and the row has happened maybe half an hour or an hour beforehand. How do you begin to get back to a decent place? So I've got a couple of things that I encourage people to do. The first is you definitely need a cool down period and do not go to bed and imagine that those late night chats do anything other than aggravate the situation because they don't. They don't, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, you're emotional, you've had a terrible fight. So one of the things that I urge couples to do is to say,

right, tomorrow night, we're going to sit down and we're going to talk about this rationally and calmly. walk away. Walk away. Know when to call it. No when to just say. Now, of course, some people take that really literally and they walk away for days, weeks on end. No, no. We don't want that. No, I'm very clear about this. A couple needs to contract. 48 hours. That's the latest that it's going to be before we come back and actually tackle something. And, you know, if they need it, if they need it, what's what's it called those those talking sticks if they need it whatever it takes to get you at a table you know when you pass the what's it called can anybody remember no i'm rubbish on the name but you know if if if you need it okay have it and agree five minutes max

and then you pass it five minutes max so you can't get that emotional downloading from one that is offloading offloading everything you can't that's not going to happen you don't want to download Yeah, what you want is a conversation that both of you can listen to and both of you can actually participate in. That's the key to it that you both get a part in the conversation to either air your thoughts on it, your part in it, take responsibility for your part in it. You know, if you get emotionally dysregulated really quickly, then own it. Own it and say, do you know what, next time I'm going to call a code word and walk a word. way because this is too much. We can't keep arguing like this. I'm going to own that. You know,

I fly. And then what happens with that is both people fly and then it's a twister. So if you've got somebody who gets very dysregulated very quickly and it agitates, I can guarantee it's a pattern and it will be exactly the same every time you fight. It'll be a pattern. Bat, bat, bat, bat, bat, bat, twister takes you up, chucks you out and off you go to your opposite corners. And then there's the, then there's the silence or the retreat. And the key to that is to agree how long you can go into retreat or recovery. Make sure that when you sit down, you make, you have the rules. There's a clock. You can't just download 48 hours maximum. Oh, and no late night conversations. And no late night. I like that. It's amazing actually, because you can have a row.

And my brother came up with the term and I love this total doomsday. Have you gone full doomsday? know, where I'll get myself so worked up. I'm like, well, everything's over. A disaster. Walk away. But it's amazing how 24 hours, 12 hours, whatever it is, sometimes it can take a while. Strange is it? Because people can be stubborn, talking about myself. But it's amazing how it does when you give it some time and you calm down. You're like, you might be overreacting. You know, what's really behind this? You know, what do you really feel? What is he really saying? what she's really saying, you know, it's amazing. You just allow that time to, yeah, recover from it. And you can and then everything's okay again.

And you just forget when it next happens. It's like, you go again. You're like, it's sort of learning, isn't it, to give each other a bit of space. The twister again, it's stopping the twister really because the fights can, they're not great if they're consistent. They're not great. So it's actually sensing that and calling it between you. Nope, no, let's go.

Code word, let's move. Let's move. Don't do that. Because those twisters can, they can leave damage. They can leave unconscious damage as well. Yeah. Where what's said is vicious sometimes and it lands and it percolates and not healthy, not healthy. And people react to different ways, don't then?

There can always be one who fires up, one who walks away. You know, it depends who is that person you're with and how they deal with stuff. I like the fact that if you're walking away, the reason I like some sort of code or some sort of signaling to the other, if you're walking away, what I really like the other to know is you're walking away to avoid the fight. You don't want the, you don't want the consequences of the fight. So you're walking away from that. You're not walking away from them. You're walking away from the fight. You don't want that escalation because actually you know where it's going to end up and where it's going to go. Time for a quick break now, but Karen, we'll be answering your relationship questions next. We have so many questions from our diggers, Karen. And the first one comes from Rachel. I've been married for 21 years now.

I feel like I've come to a standstill and lost my way a bit. I'm a teacher and the holidays have just made me go a bit inward. We've had a lovely holiday, but it sometimes feels like we're in the friend zone more than a married couple. Neither of us are very good with expressing our emotions, so we've never really tackled it. I just feel quite lost and fed up. Is this normal having been together for so long from Rachel? Well, yeah, it is quite normal, isn't it? If you're just, you know, long-term relationships are the hardest gig ever.

They take constant attention, really. They're not something that you've just put on the back burner and, you know, carry on. And I think what Rachel's describing is really common is that you get to a point where you have, it's all a bit flat and you've lost the curiosity around each other. And I think what they both need to do is to sit down together and start talking about, okay, so we've got lots of one type of intimacy, maybe we're really good mates, but what about the other type of intimacy? What about a physical intimacy? What about an energetic intimacy? What about that? Have a word, have a conversation around intimacy,

not necessarily sex, but intimacy. So that you can start bringing it out of the friend zone back towards a little bit of a, you know, a little bit of a sort of an edgy, edgy conversation about actually, you know, when did we last really have fun together? When did we last actually play around or were seductive? So a conversation that's sort of slow, I mean, that might be too much for some.

to go straight in. But the opening up of intimacy, when did you last dance together? When did you last laugh together? When did you last, you know, have a cuddle? That's sort of, the opening up of that conversation can then move. It can then sort of shift where you want it to shift. And so if it is out of friend zone into something a little bit more, a little bit more connected, a little bit more physically intimate, well, there's your opportunity. But you've got to sort of create, you have to create a little bit of frisson, don't you, so that you can have that conversation. And the conversation does in itself create a little bit of a frisson. So I think it is about being curious again. It's about wanting to know about each other again, rather than just settling for being

friends. I was just thinking the one thing Steve and I did last year or this year, I have no idea the time has been weird. And we went, we climbed Snowden. And that was such a fun thing to do together. It was an adventure. And yeah, it kind of, it completely out. of our comfort zone. It was really fun and really rewarding. And we drank a lot of Jack Daniels at the end of it. So we had a great time. No, absolutely brilliant. And am I right? Have you been married a long time? Yeah, really long time. Have you? Oh my God, that's brilliant. Oh, that's amazing. They're couple goals. Absolutely amazing. I don't know why I'm talking. You should be talking, Joe, actually. And it's really easy. That's all people need to know. Really, really easy.

Our next question is from Diane, who said me and my partner have been dating for around two years and are both definitely in the midlife bracket. My partner wants to start planning for the future and our shared retirement, but I'm apprehensive about giving up that financial independence after a messy divorce earlier in life. I've made a point of us each keeping our own houses, for example, rather than moving in together. I feel like I've only just got things back where I want them and I feel torn as I do want to plan that future together, but also feel really nervous about the commitment of pooling assets. Do you have any advice about that?

And that is from Diane. Well, actually, I do. I do because I do quite a lot of work around money with couples. But I've also done a piece of work with Quilter, who've done lots of research on this very thing. And it turns out that more than I imagined, 46% of couples are financially single. They don't do that job.

joint financial planning together, which was fascinating when I read that. I mean, I sort of know it, but I didn't realize it was that because couples do their joint finances, but they don't, they don't do that planning, that, that extra bit. So a good financial planner can manage that beautifully. So that would be my advice, actually. Get some research, get an independent financial person in and work out how you can do it. Keep your autonomy. Keep your. your independence but actually both of you plan towards a financial future. That's a good idea. You hear more and more couples later in life having got divorced and you know.

Well, this is it. You have separate houses so you can have the best of both worlds in a way. You can have lovely times together and then when you're both a bit grumpy, you can go off and have your own space and stuff and that kind of, it kind of works. It doesn't always work out for people that way and you have to, some people can't afford to be keeping two houses and need to leave. live together. So it's, yeah, but I know it that that can work. Yeah. They don't even have to keep the separate houses, Zoe. She doesn't have to, but she can keep her financial autonomy as

well as planned together. That's, I think that's the thing that people have to hold on to that just because they're a couple doesn't mean everything, but they can plan together for a particular retirement or journey or whatever. So we've got a question from Anna who says, my partner has ADHD. and I want to be supportive, but I often feel like I'm carrying all the mental load. He's always meaning to help, but the washing, the paperwork and all the little jobs somehow end up on my list. How do you know when you're supporting your partner versus enabling behaviours that are damaging the relationship? Okay, well done, Anna, because you've realised that the inherent danger is the over-facilitation of your partner. That is the danger zone, okay?

because too much of that, whilst you start off with the best intentions, you want to help, you want to, and you can, you can help. That's the key. You can do it. So you can, you start to do it. And then it becomes the mental load increases, increases and increases. And when lots of the couples I see have reached the point where actually the mental load has become so great that they've withdrawn from the couple. So the over-facilitation is not the move.

the move is to actually think about how do you level it up? How do you, the thing about ADHD is, especially within couples and in this family PLC, I call it, is that there needs to be clarity and accountability. They're the two things. Don't expect him to maybe do the washing up because he might not see it or she might not see it. I don't know, male or female, she might just not be on the radar. So you can't expect these things. So the more that there can be a clarity about the expectation, an absolute definitive, this is yours to do.

This is what you're doing. This is what I'm doing. And I do a particular thing about this. I become a whiteboard, which I'm terrible. I get them doing these whiteboards and they hate it. However, however, it works because they volunteer. The idea is to get both parties. Well, I can do that. Well, I'll do that then. Okay, I'll do that. Can you just tell me what goes into the kids. lunchbox. How can you not know? Can you just leave a list what goes into the kids lunchbox and then I can do it? That's the type of conversation that really needs to happen because there's assumption that actually the most simple things can be done by somebody who is usually brilliant, very clever, very, you know, all of that, but they miss the very simple stuff. And so accountability and clarity and no over-facilitation.

Those are my three takeaways for that. you saying that post-it notes might be a useful thing because in my house, I'm quite a fan, or I find it very necessary to leave post-it notes everywhere because things don't get done. Yeah. And it drives me absolutely crazy. So I need to be more tolerance. Is that what we're saying? I need to be more tolerant and I need to make lists. No, no, tolerance. Both of you need tolerance. But that doesn't mean letting the other off the hook, whoever it is. It doesn't mean letting them off the hook because therein is the problem. But communication, communication, communication. So carry on with the post-it notes, carry on with them.

But the thing is you've got to check that they're done. And sooner or later, that will land. Oh, right, that's what I'm doing. Okay, fine. And do you know what I find? I find a lot of people, while they hate that idea of being told what to do, especially neurodivergence, they actually, it's really good. It's really nice that they know what's expected of them.

Otherwise, in all that brilliant sort of thinking and the over-busy head, it can just get deprioritized and drop off. the edge. So when it's there as a as a reminder, it really works. Okay. So even though I put a reminder in the calendar that goes off every Wednesday saying put the bins out and it still doesn't get done, how do I react in those situations? I take a deep breath and I put them out myself. That's what I do. No, no. You do not do that. You do not do that. This is the problem, you see, because the because yes, that's exactly what you do. You go and put the bins out. But then the partner would never know the consequence. So you've got to, you have to bear the consequence of it not being

done, which is a mess. But you see, if you, if your partner had to go out and clear up all the foxes that have torn the rubbish all over the place, it's all over the front, wherever it is, if he had to do that on a regular basis, he might just think about, do you know what, I'm going to get that bin out. But the consequence, the living of the consequence, but the problem is, it's so hard for partners to do that. I know what's going to happen. It's, It'll just be there. And I say, yeah, can you do it. I don't know if I can.

I can't leave the bins for a week. I just don't think I can. I rest my case, but you need to try. If they don't get put out, leave it for a week and see what happens. This is going to be like a soap opera. All the diggers will be tuning in to see what goes on. It's interesting that because my partner and I are very, very different. He's very organized and I'm kind of chaos.

But I have to say that a lot of his sort of stuff initially that I'd be like, oh, and I'm like this, he has brought calm to my chaos. And I think some of my chaos has been quite good for his calm. So it's amazing. You're just learning about each other's ways, aren't you? And where the, where the edges are. It's about that couple fit, isn't it? Locating in the other what we can't get hold of. All right. So if you're a little bit chaotic. Getting hold of your internal calm is quite hard, but he brings it for you. And he may be too grown up or serious and can't access his childlike bit. And you bring that to him. And so they come together and you swap them over and integrate them in a good couple. You learn to integrate them. Yeah. It's all about being that partnership, isn't it? Which we've managed to do for

35 years. So yeah. You're doing all right, despite the bins, Joe. Incredible. We have a Another question from an anonymous sticker who says, I'm 51, finding it ridiculously hard to meet a decent single guy. Recently, I've had five guys show interest, found out later they're either married or with a partner. That's so naughty. It started to put me off men full stop. I'm not surprised. Why is it so hard to meet a single, genuine, kind, loving guy who also happens to be tall, dark and handsome? Good luck.

Do they have to be tall? I definitely don't want to do dating apps. So how do I go about meeting this person? I don't drink, so I don't go to pubs. And I am too old for all of that now anyway. I've been single for years. We'd really love to meet a guy to share my life with. My friends and families say I have two high standards. But after what I've endured recently, is this a bad thing? I'm a great catch. Surely there's someone out there for me from Anonymous. Wow, there's quite a bit in there. Where to start? Dating apps. I don't. dating apps are a minefield.

We know that. But they are sort of one avenue. So if you've got that ticking over on the side, yes, you're going to get knocked back. Yes, you may be lucky. People say it's a numbers game. I don't even know if it is anymore. But to have that ticking over,

I actually think it's quite a good exercise, intolerance. Yes. And it feels like there needs to be a little bit of tolerance because the more you're, I can't remember the name. Oh, she's anonymous, wasn't it? Anonymous, yeah.

Yeah, the more that you're on your own and the more that you're visualising, the perfection that you require, the less reality is starting to land. Yes, you've had five bad experiences, but you've got to keep on and just see if there are some good experiences there. The setting up of the ideal is,

it's a no-win game. So I think all of these preconceptions that we have need to be held with caution, with caution. And the other thing about, right, you don't drink, but you're certainly not too old to go and have fun. What's that about? Come on, you know, go up. Where did you go? Where did you go? Where did you go? Where was it? Ben Nevis. Oh, Snowden. Snowden, yeah. Go and walk Snowden with a group of people. Go to a talk about something that you're interested in. Go and wander, go and wander around an art museum on your own

and see you can, you know, see who chats you up. Go out there. Be curious. But you can't just, You can't just have this list of this list of yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and very high standards and actually not be out there testing them in reality. That's really good advice. Can I just say that I've had friends who struggled on dating apps, but, you know, and you have bad experiences and sometimes they put them down and go, right, I'm not going to do that for a while and see if anything else comes up. But eventually quite a few of my lovely friends and family members have met wonderful people

through dating apps who they would never have met without them. And it does give you hope where you think actually don't rule it all out. And another friend of mine joined a really lovely, she's really into literature and books. And she joined an app where lots of people talk about books and met someone through that. So again, finding things that you're passionate in about. That's a really good way to connect with other people who are passionate about similar things to you. So don't lose hope. Yeah, don't lose hope and don't stop.

And don't keep saying you're too old to do anything. We're not too old. Never too old. Never. Thank you so much. You've been amazing. Oh, thank you. Thank you.

Lovely chat. Quite inspired, Karen. Thank you on behalf of all of our diggers. And next week we'll find out, did disco put the bins out? Can you bear it? Can you bear it? Go on, Joe, try. Just try.

There's the test. There's the test. I can't wait. Wish me luck. Yeah, good luck, Karen. Thank you so much for being such an inspiration. You're wonderful. Thank you so much, both of you.

Lovely to chat. Digit is a Persephoneka production.