Dig It with Jo Whiley and Zoe Ball - DIG IN: Is HRT the Game-Changer for Midlife?

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

This week on Dig In, Jo and Zoe share their experiences with HRT and what’s worked for them, reflect on the ups and downs of parenting teenagers, and ask: what makes the perfect Halloween party for kids? SUBSCRIBE TO OUR FREE SUBSTACK Stay up to date with Dig It — new updates every Friday straight to your inbox. 👉 https://digitpod.substack.com/subscribe GET IN TOUCH 📧 Email us: [e-mail] 📱 Text or Voice Note: 07477 038795 💬 Or tap here to send a voice note or message on WhatsApp:⁠ ⁠https://wa.me/447477038795⁠⁠ GET EARLY AND AD-FREE EPISODES Become a member of The Potting Shed for early and ad-free episodes and bonus content 👉⁠ ⁠⁠⁠https://digit.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠ SPECIAL THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS This episode is brought to you by QVC and Airbnb. ✨QVC - Click below to discover QVC’s range of menopause products and support. And don’t forget to use the code QDIG10 for £10 off your first purchase (minimum spends apply, see QVC website for full terms and conditions) - https://www.qvcuk.com/content/menopause-your-way.html?cid=PR-PR-Digit&e22=Digit 🌍 Airbnb — Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at https://www.airbnb.co.uk/host/  CREDITS Exec Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan Assistant Producer: Eve Jones Technical Producers: Oliver Geraghty Video Editors: Connor Berry and Jack Whiteside Dig It is a Persephonica production

Coming up on Digget. She couldn't stay at home and live a very full, rich life because she had a lot of challenging behaviour. Sorry. Oh, Joe. It's just what everyone goes through. Honestly, Joe, have a minute. I think it's a genetically programmed to think you're uncool.

When they get hormonal, occasionally they can say things. I mean, I've come back off the school run and cried. Same. Oh, God, yeah. All of that, right after this. At Harrison Healthcare, we know that last. Lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic.

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Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca. Hello, everybody. It's Diggin. And hi, hi, Zoe. How you doing? Hello, darling. And it's definitely Monday morning today, isn't it? Yeah, very much so. I possibly need a third coffee. I just nipped out to do something to the kitchen.

I was walking around the house and I was looking at the kitchen. I thought, every single Monday morning, it's like I'm clearing up after a party. Like we've had a host of 25 different people here and I just have to, it's all I do. I start on a Monday morning and I probably get the house tidy by Thursday, I think. But oh my God, so much to do. So much washing up. So many clothes to put away. So much debris everywhere.

Do you ever have it just you and Steve? Because it's interesting because I was really low this weekend and I realized it's because Nellie's with her dad. I haven't seen Woody for a few weeks because he's been busy DJing at weekends. And I sort of go from having a really full house to having no one here. And sometimes that really serves me well and I get loads of stuff done and I'm like doing all the jobs and the things that I would never get. And I can watch the movies I want to watch on my own and stuff like that. But sometimes I get really low. I think that's the thing you have when you're divorced.

So you've got kids that go back and forth. There are times that it's handy, but there are times that you really miss them. And I really felt like they. I still was like, I really miss everybody. I saw you posted something about your bulbs and I had that moment of clarity. I was like, God, she's not in a good place. I bet she's on her own and I bet she feels really sad. And what did I do?

I got in the garden and how did I feel at the end of the day much better. It helps, isn't it? It really helps. It's such a tonic. But how often is it just you and disco? Steve. We're just never on our own. I mean, there's always somebody dropping in. But there was a moment when I thought at one point, oh my God, the kids are all out and they all occupied and it's just going to be us on our own. And I feel quite panicky at the thought of that, which is ridiculous because we're

adults and we're married and we're married for all this time. So it should be really great being on our own. And it is. It's just the thought of it. You're just like, oh, God, what we're going to do? And actually, we do have a really nice time and we'll go for a run and we'll go and have a coffee or breakfast somewhere. And it's lovely to actually have a conversation with each other because we don't often do that. But I really feel for you and I really know or I don't know, but I can anticipate what it might be like. I think that's that sudden dawning of, oh my goodness, now's 15, and she's nearly 16, she's going to do her exams and in a couple of years, she's going to possibly leave the nest. She might not. She might not at all. But it's suddenly setting in and I know lots of people have had their kids go off to university

and a friend of mine's got her son's moving to Australia. And, you know, when your kids are the best bit of you, which my kids definitely are, it is a little worry where you think, oh, no, it's going to be so quiet and I'm going to have to make a life. And I thought of Steve, because I thought, actually, maybe I am going to have to join some clubs. You know, it probably won't be golf for me, but we saw a load of people flying little planes on the hill and they were, I was like, oh, what a lovely thing. They're in a little model plane club. And we were sort of smiling at that. And I thought, I'm going to have to find a club. What will my club be, Joe? You're going to be doing gliding over the downs. I'm definitely not going to be doing gliding. I promise you that. I will not be anything in the air.

It will definitely be firmly on the ground. But I do think I'm going to have to consider that. Hey, Joe, maybe I'm going to have to get sporty. Maybe you are. Yeah. Well, it's time to dig in, isn't it? We've got loads of questions. Shall we start with a voice note from Tanya? Hello, Zoe and Joe. My name's Tanya and I'm from Guernsey. And I just wanted to say how much I'm loving the Digit podcast. I've had to listen to it and then feel compelled to watch it as well. It's just been brilliant. It's resonated with me on so many levels because like you both, I love gardening. Zoe, also, I can totally relate to everything that you've told us about your lovely mum. My dad also died of pancreatic cancer when I was only 17. He was only 44. And watching him go was so

awful. But it stays with me every day because he wanted to live so badly. And if I'm having an iffy day, which everybody has now and again. I just think my dad would do anything to be alive and enjoy his day. So it makes me suck up as much of life as I can. And I'm happily married and really do enjoy my life. Anyway, my question for you is, I'm 49 and I've just started to head into menopause and definitely perimenopausal. And I'm starting to look at a HRT regime. What are your HRT regimes? Are you both still on HRT? What do you use? Do you have any tips for HRT, I'm using or looking at the body identical route. But any tips or guidance that you can give us all, I know everybody's body is different, but if you do have any tips you can give us, I'd be really

grateful. Thanks a lot. Bye. Oh, so many things in that message from Tanya. That's so young to lose your dad. Bless you, Tanya. And you're right when you're thinking of your dad and I think of my mum. They clearly were both fabulous humans who loved their friends. They loved their families and loved life and would love to be here and we carry that strength in our hearts even though we miss them every single day. So I send you loads of love, my goodness me. He was so young. Yeah, so young. HRT, menopause. We know a lot about this subject. Don't be Joe. Got the T-shirt. I wonder if I'll stay on HRT forever. I don't know. I haven't really thought about the other side of it all. So Joe, tell me a bit about your situation. Do you know what? I think I

will stay on it forever. I mean, according to medical advice. Okay. Yeah. Because I was really reluctant to start HRT and this was probably 10 years ago now that I was thinking about it because it was a taboo subject. People weren't talking about it. There was a little bit of stigma about it and I just thought, no, I will be fine. I'm sure because nobody talks about it. I just assumed that everybody was actually fine and they didn't really need HRT and by the way, I'll probably get breast cancer if I'd do it. And that was in my head. So I resisted it for quite a long time. Then along came the long. likes of Mariella Frostrup, who was such a pioneer at the very, very beginning. Jenny Murray talked about it and then Davina came along and it became a conversation and I realized it wasn't

something to be scared of. I saw so many different doctors who were suggesting various things for me. And my issue was brain fog, which was difficult because I was on the radio. So just not having words coming into my head to speak is obviously really scary when you're on the radio. So that was a really big issue. But then medically as well, there were things, you know, like constantly. constantly feeling like I had a UTI was a really, really big part of my menopausal journey. And that was probably one of the main reasons that I started on HRT. And it's really helped. I know a lot of women resort to vaginal estrogen, which we've talked about before.

And I really do want to get somebody on to talk about this. So we need an expert to come on and chat to us all, I think, about menopause and HRT and vaginal estrogen. But I think if there's anybody watching right now who is going through any kind of symptoms, then take it from me that there are solutions out there. What I have found happens to me, and I don't know whether other people can relate to this, is that I will be very, very religious with my HRT,

and I will take what I take. What I take is Lanzetto, and this is a spray. I tried lots of different things. I tried patches. I tried gels. I rubbed loads and loads of stuff on, and I wasn't really getting the effect. And then one of my doctors suggested,

or someone that I saw along my journey, suggested this Lenzetto spray and that has changed everything for me and I'm quite evangelical about it and I will tell all my friends that this is the one that's worked for me, maybe it'll work for them. I do two pumps a day on my arms and it just keeps me on the straight

and narrow. What I do is I'm on the straight and narrow I'm thinking I feel great now, all my symptoms have gone away I don't need to go to the loo all the time, this is all good and I stop taking it and then about six weeks later I will go oh my God, why am I getting up to go to the loo all night? Why do I feel really

miserable. What's going on? Oh, I've stopped taking my HRT. Get back on the spray. And I now I'm really, really strict with myself and I am not going to stop taking it because I know that my symptoms go away eventually. And also that, you know, the estrogen internally really, really helps. So I'm now making myself follow this religiously and I will not slack. A lot of the time I kept thinking, oh, it's all in my head and perhaps I'm probably just feeling better just because. But now it's happened so many times that I've stopped taking everything and the symptoms will come back that I'm like, Joe, you have to have a word with yourself. You need to take this. It makes you feel better. Carry on doing it. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes perfect sense.

And I'm really interested to hear you say that you've stopped taking it and what happens because I'm scared to stop taking mine. So I take the body bioidentical. I use the gel on my arms. I cover myself and the entire family have to watch out for about half an hour because then they get it on them and they're like, what's going to happen to me? I've got nothing. Nothing is. major is going to happen to you. I tried the stick-ons, but they left big plaster marks and they washed off. So the gel has worked for me. I've got lots of friends on the spray, so it's brilliant because it dries immediately. So I take that and I do four pumps, this is quite a lot, but I'm quite a big lass. And I found anything less than four, I can still be wobbly. And then I take,

and again, we have to remember that this is just me individually. Don't follow what I do, people. You've got to check your own hormone levels. And my doctor takes my hormone levels every sort of three, four months. I'll have like a blood test just to check that we're sort of in the right, because it can change. This is the thing. And then I take two progesterone at nights. And the reason I take two is because I do four pumps, works on my arm and you have to kind of balance that out. And I take those every day. So I don't get any periods. Because I was getting some really nasty random big bleeds. and when I was doing the breakfast show, again, I had horrific anxiety. That was my worst sort of symptom.

That involved panic attacks, not being able to breathe, sort of a lot of tears, quite a low mood. You know, it was quite frightening at times. And sort of once I sussed out that that was a major cause because I did go on antidepressants for a while for my anxiety, but I'm off those now and I'm really glad to be off those. But they did help for a little period of time. It's difficult with things like this because sometimes you're not sure what is what. You don't know whether some of your symptoms are coming from things that are going on in life or if they're mainly menopause. So you kind of have to sort of try these things. But now I've got a really steady moods, which is great.

I don't sort of go, we, I do sometimes get, you know, sad. But that's just life. That's what happens. But definitely hormone-wise, I feel so level. So you do the gel. that's what you have four pumps of gel. So I have four pumps of gel. And then to balance that out, I take two progesterone at night.

And it's called utergestin, I think. There are always words that I can ever quite pronounce. Like gardening. Exactly. Occasionally, I will do a little pump of testosterone. But I haven't felt that I've needed that as much as everything has sort of balanced out. And I know some of these products aren't always easy for people to get their hands. on it can be quite tricky.

And often when you go to your GP, you might only be offered certain types. But I really think it's worth investigating all the different ways and working out what works for you. And there are so many people, aren't there to follow on Instagram? So many people like Naomi Potter is amazing.

And also the great thing about, you know, Mariella and Davina, I know Penny Lancaster's been really open about her men and Paul's journey. I think the more women sharing, the more we all understand that it's okay. it's difficult because not everybody can take HRT, you know.

And I know if you've got a history of breast cancer or for other reasons, there are people that cannot take HRT. I think you're right. We should talk about it on the show because it would be interesting to know what people have found works for them if they can't take HRT. I also take progesterone in the evening as well. Yeah, that's the same one I take. Yeah.

If you don't have the coil, then you have to have that. Yeah, I didn't get on with the coil. I had a, I tried the coil. I had a terrible time with it. And then they lost it. and I had to have an operation for them to find it. I think I saw a picture this week where a baby was born holding one. And I wasn't sure if that was AI.

I was like, that is terrifying. Yeah. But yeah, a lot of people get on great with it. I just, it made me really quite angry and very depressed. And it just didn't work. Yeah. And then it had gone walk about. So it was the most painful thing to have that thing fitted that I think I've ever been through.

But I have got like excruciating. Having it out as well is really excruciating. Oh, God, it's horrific. Also, something to discuss perhaps on another pod, Joe, is that I have started to suffer with the UTI situation. And so I've been reading a lot about it. And I've obviously been talking about it because now my phone is sending me lots of adverts. And I have just ordered the Hallie Berry promoted internal red light tool, which apparently it's sort of like red light therapy for inside

and apparently that is going to really help with tissue so when that arrives and I've tried it out I will let everybody know because I mean it looks like I used to look at it and think I'm not going to need that what's that but this keeps happening to me and I'm thinking all right well maybe I'll try out the Halliberry tool if you're loving Digit

make sure you hit the follow on Apple or Spotify it means that you'll never miss an episode and they'll download to your phone as soon as they're out. Shall we hear from someone else? We've got Karen with the voice notes. Hi, Zoe and Joe. This is Karen.

I'm in Falmouth in Cornwall. Firstly, thank you so much for your podcast. It's amazing. I'm currently training for my first ever half marathon. I am no runner, but my oldest friend talked me into this at the start of the year and I've now got three weeks to go. I love listening to podcasts while I'm running and my sister recommended yours and I'm loving it.

A few episodes ago, you talked about your kind of every. day heroes or gurus. And I want to do a shout out to my sister. She's definitely mine. She's nine years my junior. She is a cancer survivor and she is my absolute go-to on everything, whether that's beauty products, HRT, fashion. I go to her. So shout out to my baby sister. And my question for you is I have a 12-year-old son and I've just realized that I'm just not cool to him anymore and I used to be his world. I'm a single parent. And now he's like, you know, a little bit embarrassed if I walk him to school, you know, doesn't want to be seen with me too much. And I find it absolutely heartbreaking. So how do you like navigate this transition if they head into their teenage years and don't want

to hang out with you so much? And tell me when do they come out the other side and think that you're cool again. Karen, I know that moment. That's so well. And it's interesting because with my kids, it happened at different ages. And it's just happening with Nell now where she'd always cuddle me. I'd sit in her bed, we'd have great chats, da-da-da-da. Now I walk in her room and she looks at me like, yes, what do you want? And if I go to cuddle, I just like, oh, don't need that. She's suddenly becoming a woman. And with Woody, I think it happened about 13, 14, for about a year he got like that and then came straight back from it.

But it is so heartbreaking. It really makes you cry because it's like losing a love. I know. My kids, I don't think they've ever thought I was cool. apart from when I introduced them to Doctor Who. But yeah, apart from that's the only time I've ever been able to impress my kids. So I don't think they ever thought I was cool. But they definitely go through this phase where they're just starting to grow up

and they need you in a different way. And it is devastating. And it's really hard not to put upon them. I get quite needy with Nell or I'll look at her and be like, but I need a hug. She's like, Mom, pull yourself together for women. and you have to adapt to their needs. But I promise you, Karen, he will come back and he will think you are the coolest woman

because you sound like you totally are and you're a brilliant single mum. And they do come back, but they do go through this phase. And it's just their new boundaries because that's the thing with kids right from when they're born. Each little phase they go through its new boundaries. They're like, oh, how far can I push this? And they are growing up and you want them to be independent and you want them to be able to survive. without you out there, but you also need them to need you because we're all really needy. But I think you will adapt and I promise you he will come back.

I think it's a genetically programmed to think you're uncool and there is nothing they can do about it. There is a certain time when it will kick in and it's not actually, they're not thinking about it at all. It's just they have to go through this whole process of just going, oh, everything you say and everything you do is just so embarrassing and so cringe. My favourite game, well, a while ago was dropping off. Coco at school and just going, turning up, like the Taylor Swift that we've been singing along to,

like 30 seconds before, just turning up really loud as she opens up the car door. And she just wants to kill me. At that moment, she's like, Mom! And but I know not to overstep the mark. I know how far I can take it. And then I'm like, okay, no, I'm not really going to do that. Don't worry. But I think, you know, your kids know that you are cool. Deep down, you are the coolest person in their life, but they just cannot let their friends know about it. And it is incredibly painful when they kind of cut you to the quick with things that they say and things that they do to you. And all you want is to be loved. Zoe, like you said, we're all kind of needy. But they do come back. Exactly what Zoe said. They absolutely come back. I spoke about this with the kids yesterday. And they were

like, oh, no, well, you are, you are kind of cool. Reluctantly. Definitely, definitely times when I felt very, very uncool with them. But yeah, Karen, that's the most important thing. You've just got weather the storm. You've just got to go through this. This is what happens. He loves you. He really, really loves you and you just have to go, it's not really my little boy that's doing this. It's this kind of adolescent hormonal fog that's going on in his life. And deep down, he really loves me and he's going to come back. And he will absolutely, and your relationship will be restored to what it was earlier on. Boys give great hugs. They really do. Girls do as well. But sons are amazing at giving you a hug when you're feeling a little bit wobbly. They will just embrace you because

they get bigger. That's a really good thing. They get bigger. Yeah. They get bigger and stronger. So boys' hugs are fantastic because they make you feel kind of safe and loved. So you're going to have that in the end, and it will come along. Like you say, he's just got to be cool in front of his mates now because they're all growing up and you kind of, I do that with now, I wind down the window I've said before and I just shout, I love you really loud. She's like, oh God, but I think this is a good thing. The subtlety of knowing how far you can push it with embarrassing them so that you don't do it so you make your own life hell. Because, you know, I mean, my dad used to completely embarrass me in front of, you know, friends and stuff like that. But I know the line

where not to cross with my kids. It's like I can rib them and take the Mickey and, you know, embarrass them in front of their school friends to a point, but you know, just stay the right. Because otherwise you're just going to make your life hell. When I spoke to them yesterday, they went, no, no, no, you and dad are cool because we were sitting around together. But it was nothing to do with what we wear, what we've done for them, like the jobs that we do. It was nothing to do that. just went, no, no, you're cool because you just talk to our friends like, like, you're, like, you're one of them. You don't try to be anything else. You're just kind of, like, really normal. And I was like, okay, this is, that we've done something right then. So you don't come

at the kids or their friends with being patronising or telling them off or trying to be funny. Just, just relate to them as a normal human being. Don't try to be the parent, just to be, just be on level with them. And I think that's really, really important. It was important to the kids anyway. That's what they were saying. Just, just, yeah. you never tried to be anything other than yourself. And that's why it works. It's also a tough thing, a single parent, I'm imagining. Because, you know, a lot of friends of mine who you have to be good cop, bad cop.

And when there's, if there's two of you, you know, it might not always be ideal. But when there's two of you, someone could always be good cop and bad cop. And when you're on your own raising kids, you've got to be both. And that's, and that can be so you want to be a friend and you want to be a confidant. But occasionally you have to lay down the law. And it's never easy. but that's the boundary thing. And a lot of this stuff took me a long time to learn,

even from learning about my own boundaries. And as they get older, when they get hormonal, occasionally they can say things that can, I mean, I've come back off the school run and cried. Same. Oh, God, yeah. Where they've just said things to me that I'm like, I do so much for you and this is how,

but it's not their fault. I remember when Woody went through a tough time. It was a bit of a git to us all. And it was upsetting us all quite a lot. And then I remember turning around and Norm read the teenage brain. And it was such a good book because you read it's like it's all hormones. It's not their fault. They become very selfish.

But it's all part of development. And you just have to remember it's not their fault. And they do love you and they don't hate you. It's just all the change that is going on. There is so much going on in a teenage brain. And that's why they become like that. Yeah. Because I've walked out of rooms and been like, you know,

literally sticking up middle finger through the door like, ah, because they could be so hateful. No, I was crying on Friday night just down to a text exchange. I was just like, I can't believe. This is the way you've spoken to me. Yeah. When they know they've upset you, it takes a little bit of time, but they will always come back and go, I'm really sorry about that. Right, we're going to take a quick break for some ads. If you'd like these episodes ad free, why not become a subscriber to The Potting Show? You'll get longer episodes, bonus content and access to our members chat room where we can share tips. So I thought I was ready for perimenopause, but it still caught me off guard. The anxiety, especially really not me for six.

Mine was brain fog. That was definitely one. Also, my emotions were all over the place. I really struggled and I had no idea what would actually help. That's why QBC's Menopause, your way is brilliant. It's a total different approach offering advice. real stories and products to guide you through perimenopause, menopause and beyond. And it's so practical. They've got really helpful search tools on their website like

Shop by Symptom, which means you can find exactly what resonates with your personal journey. So whether it's hot flushes, sleep, hair care or even sexual wellness, you can find both curated products and expert advice to support with your symptoms. From things like pelvic floor trainers and supplements for joint care to moisturizers for changing skin and even long wear makeup. It's all there in one supportive space. And expert content too, guided meditations, best sleep practices and protein-packed recipes. It's not just products, it's reassurance. So you feel prepared, not scared. To explore more, search menopause at QBCUK.com. And don't forget to use the code QDIG 10 for 10 pounds of your first purchase over 30 pounds.

That's QDIG-10, QD-10 for 10 off your first order over 30 pounds. For full terms, visit the QVC website. People have been getting in touch. We love hearing from you. This is Claire on teaching kids about money. Hi ladies, it's Claire here from Hinkley. I'm loving the podcast. Just wanted to send a quick note after hearing you mention how great it would be to teach

financial education in schools. I'm a financial advisor with true potential. and I actually go into schools to give a talk called On the Money. And the kids are always shocked when I show them a list of the bills we pay. We cover mortgages, budgeting, pensions, and they're genuinely interested and ask some great questions. So my advice to parents is to show your kids your bills, let them know your income and your outgoings, and also let them know what money mistakes you've made, because we've all made them even as financial advisors. So I really appreciate your shining a light on it and keep up the great work on the podcast.

Bye. Oh, that's so good. Claire, what that's good news if that's happening. Isn't that great? Absolutely. I did that when I was young. In fact, I probably needed that in my 20s and 30s. And quite possibly now. And possibly now. It's so good. We've got another note. And this is about maternity wear because we were asked about it last week and we said we've actually passed that stage. We need to hear from people who are going through that stage at the moment. So Frankie has been in touch and this is Frankke's text about maternity recommendations. Beyond 9 is a great maternity label. So Beyond 9.

especially their trousers, dungarees and dresses, which are designed to fit in pregnancy for nursing, and then also when you're out of the baby ears as well, because of the clever cuts and then the elastic waistbands. So that's beyond nine, if anyone is pregnant at the moment and you want to find some decent stuff that's quite cool. Last week we had Will Young, Will was on the podcast with us and Lorna has been in touch. Hi, I hope I'm not waffling away to like some random and I have actually put the Digit podcast number in correctly. I've never messaged into a podcast before, but I wanted to talk about Will Young. I've just watched him talking about his anxiety. And I just really wondered if somehow I could get a message to him about how much his openness in the past has really helped me.

I went through really traumatic events. I lost my parents very close together and I lost my brother and I was very ill. And it triggered something called DPDR, which is depersonalization, D. realisation. It's depression with a whole sidekick of dissociation. So it's been a really long road and I'm still on it and I'm still in it. It's so refreshing to see somebody who's actually in the pit. You know, it's so easy to hear people that talk about it and they're, you know, recovered or they're talking about it retrospectively. But you know what? Sometimes when you're in that pit and you hear If somebody else is actually living it, you think, yeah, there's lots to live for.

And there is lots to live for. And like Will, I love life. I love people. And I love Will. I'm a bit of a van girl, even though I'm in the 50s. And get well soon, Will, we've all got your back. My name's Lorna. I'm from Wistible.

And I absolutely love Digit. Lorna from Wistramal, we absolutely love you as well. And thank you so much for sharing what you're going through, what you've been through, which is beyond tough. and also, yeah, the words that you've got for Will and we'll make sure that he hears exactly what you've had to say. Lorna, we send you loads of love and strength as well. It sounds like you've really had to battle to get through such terrible loss.

And thank you for sharing with us as well. And how good was it that Will was willing to talk so eloquently and so honestly and openly about his experience? And you just see how, you know, someone else like Lorna will hear that and just completely identify and be able to share. as well. So Lorna really appreciate you getting in touch. Will sending you so much love as well. And really love that you came and spoke to us about that. I also really love that Will's mum was with him. He was doing his gardening diaries and his mum was there and she was filming him and

she was helping to do some pruning. And I just thought, I think that's what that boy needs at the moment. He probably needs his mum around him for a little bit. I might be wrong. But I was just, I was like, if I was Will's mom, I'd be there pruning for him today. If you do want to get in touch with us. All you have to do, as you know, we just really, really love hearing your voices and hearing your lives. And because that's what we're doing. We're sharing our lives and we want you to share your lives with us too. You can send us a voice note or a text to our WhatsApp number. You'll find all of that in the show notes. Easy. We have a voice note from Vicky. Hello, Vicki. Hi, Joe and Zoe. This is Vicky from Surrey. I've just caught up with your brilliant pod. Whilst off work, because I've just

had a bunyan operation. Anyway, very glamorous. Too many heels. in the 90s, I can tell you. But I just wanted to say a couple of things. The lady who messaged you about mum guilt, she said she was the creator of wild kind, but we took my daughter to Camp Kindling this summer, which is part of the same company, and it was such a brilliant weekend.

We loved it. And all those happy children that she's helped create that company for, she shouldn't feel mum guilt about that. We all get it. She's done such a wonderful thing. So thank you to her. Also, I wanted to ask Joe about your sister, Francis. So my daughter, who's 14 now, so she still lives at home.

She goes to a residential school. She has learning disabilities and special needs. So I'm always worried about what the future might hold for her. Just wondering how your sister got into living where she lived when she became an adult. It's kind of the next question. for us about what happens to her. Because obviously, we're not going to be around forever. And I wanted to be looked after.

I just don't know what's out there. It's very hard. And thanks, Zoe, for all the shoutouts. You gave to the carers in the UK because there are some brilliant people out there. Bye. Vicky, thank you. I love the bunions.

Notes about the bunions. Isn't it Victoria Beckin who had terrible bunions because of all the heels? Oh, because of all the heels. She had to have an operation, I think. We don't wear them anymore, do it? No. Can't walk in them anymore, Vicki. We're all about the flats now. We are. Vicki, right. So with my sister, she's called Frances, and Vicki, thank you for sharing.

And I don't know your daughter's name, but she's 14 years old. So you're probably in the thick of it at the moment. If there's anything that I can say that will help you along the way, then I hope there is. So here it comes. Francis lived in a residential school, went away to a residential school since the age of eight. I went and spoke to my mum recently because I was trying to remember the process of what happened with Francis. And it was all a bit foggy in my mind because I think when you've got someone with special educational needs in your family, you're fighting fires a lot.

Vicki, maybe this is probably the same for you. You are constantly dealing with one thing or another that is going on. And with Frances, she couldn't stay at home and live a very full, rich life because she had a lot of challenging behaviour. And at the time,

this challenging behaviour was things like you'd go to a supermarket and she would just try and knock everything down in the aisles and then lay on the floor and kick and scream, which was obviously, as a sister at the age of probably 12, I was quite embarrassed about this. You'd go to a restaurant or you'd go to a cafe and she would just knock everything flying. She didn't sleep at night and this was always been one of our major, major issues as a family, was that Francis never slept. So she would just want you to read stories all night long and if you fell asleep, then she would wake you up.

So we'd take it in turns, mum, dad and me. We'd sleep with Francis. when eventually one of us would fall asleep and she'd just whack you over the head and go, tell me a story again, you'd get out of bed and then the other person would get in, so we'd have this rotation of bed sleeping with Francis. And obviously that was quite exhausting, but it also meant that it was very tricky for her to go and live somewhere else. We had loads of experts would come and stay overnight with us. They'd give us lots and lots of advice and no one could get to the heart of it.

And to this day, she's 57 now. We still haven't got to the root of it. She still is in residential care, but she sleeps in the living room. she won't sleep in a bedroom. So the sleeping has been difficult. And then the challenging behaviour meant that it was best for her to go and live in residential care. So at one point, Francis, when she was about 10 or 11,

moved to a place in Cambridge. And it was radical. It was revolutionary. It was modern. It was wonderful. All these people there were just trying to help her and had lots of different systems that they were trying to improve her challenging behaviour.

But then the funding was taken away. So she had to move back to Northamptonshire and go to somewhere else. And nowhere else for many years really matched up to where. she was. She would try and escape, and this was a really big part of her life that she would try and escape, and that would involve, I mean, literally climbing out of a window and running away through the grounds, through the fields, turning up in a pub in a local village. She has no

road sense whatsoever, so we'd get phone calls from a landlord going, I got Frances here again, she's having a Coke in the corner, could you come and collect her? But that was terrifying because she was crossing a main road with no road sense whatsoever. So it was always very, very scary. It ended up with her jumping out of a window and breaking her hip and her arm. We had to collect her and come home. So you see what I mean. It's never been very straightforward. And it was very difficult to find somewhere that would accept Francis with all the behavior that she has. She is the most loving, gorgeous, wonderful person who enhances everybody's lives. But when she is anxious, when she's unsettled, because of her condition, she's got a syndrome, which is called

creed du shah this is the way she behaves this is the way she deals with things and we've all come to understand that and now the way francis is looked after we try and accommodate how she feels but actually getting her into a home that would accept her was very very hard she's now in a place that men cap run a men cap are one of those organizations and vicky you might be aware of mencap hopefully you are but there are places like mencap who have set up supported living places and it's up to your local authorities to find a placement for your daughter to go to one of those places. You can do your own research and you can find the best place that suits your daughter. And then you have to apply and get funding. And hopefully your local authority will fund the best place for your

daughter to go to. And I really, really genuinely hope you find the right place. And the people who work in these places is amazing carers. We rely on those so much. And they are like saviors. They really, really are. But when Francis first went to this main cap house, she was like a whirlwind, like a tornado. She destroyed the place. She would rip the TV off the wall. She would set the fire alarms off constantly. She still does to this day. But it took a lot of patience from on behalf of the people who worked at Mencap to accommodate her and to let her stay there. And we've worked through it. And now she lives there and she's secure and she's happy and it's okay. And we have wobbles and things kind of go off kilter and it's a daily struggle and I worry about her being in

supportive living all the time. But it's stable at the moment. And that I think if you've got someone with special needs is all you hope for, that your child is stable, that they are happy, that they are safe more than anything and that they are loved by the people who look after them. So Vicky, I really hope with a combination of social workers with local authorities, with these incredible places that provide

supported living, but your daughter will live a really happy, independent life. And I know, Vicky, that it will be a sacrifice for you to send her there, but it's the best sacrifice and the biggest sacrifice you will ever make. Sorry. Oh, Joe. Honestly, Joe. Yeah.

Have a minute. Also, you're taking her into life and that whole experience which sounds like it's been really tricky for your family and for you through the years. Just what everyone goes through her. Bless you. I thought you spoke about that beautifully. I didn't want to be too bleak for Vicky, but it's really hard. She sounds amazing as well, your sister. Yeah, hopefully you'll meet her one day. She's a, she's a force. I will get to meet her one day. That's it for today's episode, but if you want even more questions and answers become a member of the potting shed and you'll get longer episode. Remember, if you have any questions or comments, then we would love to hear from you.

And we'll see on Wednesday. See you Wednesday, Joe. Bye. Digit is a Persephonica production.