Dig It with Jo Whiley and Zoe Ball - Dig In: Tool Belts, Van Life & How to Survive Your 20s

Episode Date: October 27, 2025

This week, Jo and Zoe share the lessons they wish they’d known in their twenties - from being completely hopeless with bills and cooking to finally figuring out what truly matters. They read listener letters about health scares, parenting fears, and that big question: when’s the right time for baby number two? Plus, Zoe discovers she’s become part of an actual art exhibition at the Whitechapel Gallery.   SUBSCRIBE TO OUR FREE SUBSTACK Stay up to date with Dig It — new updates every Friday straight to your inbox. 👉 https://digitpod.substack.com/subscribe GET IN TOUCH 📧 Email us: [e-mail] 📱 Text or Voice Note: 07477 038795 💬 Or tap here to send a voice note or message on WhatsApp:⁠ ⁠https://wa.me/447477038795⁠⁠ SPECIAL THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS This episode is brought to you by QVC and Stripe & Stare ✨QVC - Click below to discover QVC’s range of menopause products and support. And don’t forget to use the code QDIG10 for £10 off your first purchase (minimum spends apply, see QVC website for full terms and conditions) - https://www.qvcuk.com/content/menopause-your-way.html?cid=PR-PR-Digit&e22=Digit 🩷 Stripe & Stare — The world’s comfiest knickers, designed by women who actually understand what we want. Made from soft, breathable wood fibres that stay cool and last wash after wash — no tugging, no VPL, just comfort. A certified British B Corp doing things properly, with sizes XS–4XL and new pyjamas and layering tops too. Get 20% off your first order with code DIG20 at www.stripeandstare.com CREDITS Exec Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan Assistant Producer: Eve Jones Technical Producers: Oliver Geraghty Video Editors: Danny Pape and Jack Whiteside Dig It is a Persephonica production

Coming up on diggits. I was hopeless. I couldn't pay a bill. I couldn't cook food. I always think how on earth did I get a job, actually. We've got this picture that Astrid has sent to us. I think I recognised you in a piece. Hope you've seen it too. Is this right? What? You are in a gallery. Oh my goodness me. Woody had been on his own for years and was really loving life. It's like, yeah, I've got everyone's attention, da-da-da. And then suddenly along came this very cute little sibling and he was furious. All of that right after this. Introducing Fidelity Trader Plus. With customizable tools and charts, you can access across all your devices. Try our most powerful trading platform yet at Fidelity.com slash Trader Plus. Investing involves risk, including risk of loss. Fidelity brokerage services, LLC, member NYSE, SIPC. Build a more secure, resilient self, and strengthen your relationships. For 15 years, mental health professionals at the Center for Interpersonal Relationships

have offered psychological treatment and assessment services to help you, your couple, your adolescent, and your family. Psychotherapy starts at $75 per session. You don't have to live with depression, anxiety, or difficulties in your relationships. We'll offer an initial session online or in person in Toronto at 790 Bay Street. Visit cfir.ca. At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals.

Our expert team combines evidence-based. medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com slash Toronto. Happy Monday, Joe. Oh, happy Monday to you and to everybody else who's listening and watching wherever they are. It's nearly November. It's freaking me out. Oh, God. It was only just the other day you said it's nearly October. And this is ridiculous. What is happening? That freaked us out completely then.

Anyway, look, I should probably ask you, how are you? Oh, hello, Alan. Well, I'm Alan Partridge. How are you? I'm okay. I've got these amazing cards here that we were sent. And they are, how are you really? They're checking cards, the Menopause edition, which, you know, it applies.

It applies 80 self-awareness cards to help you connect with how you really are. Deepen your understanding and take meaningful action. So should we just do some of these? I mean, I'm a little bit scared to go beneath the surface, to be honest with you, and really delve deep because, yeah, I might crack at any moment, but let's see how we go. And so says everybody who's listening and watching us right now on a Monday morning or whenever they're listening. Okay, so I've got some options for you. Right. First of all, physically, I feel achy, bloated, puffy, calm, disconnected, dry, energized, exhausted, glowing, heavy, hot, in tune, itchy.

Liberated light, out of sink, restless, rested, sensual, strong, uncomfortable, any of those apply. I don't feel sensual, you'll be glad to know. I don't feel itchy, I've got a very nice soft materials, dry. That just makes me feel a bit cringe because it's menopause cards, so dry, it seems like it's probably dry in that sense, rather than dry indoors, not out in the rain. But I do feel, I don't want to make it. I don't want to give anyone the ick. Indoors metaphorically or, no. Up indoors.

I don't think I feel any of those things. God, am I dead physically. How do you feel today? I feel pretty positive. And do you know what? It's because I, whatever else is going on in the world, once I sit here and talk to you, I always know we're going to have a really lovely chat

and, you know, get in touch with some of our diggers. And it really cheers me up. I look forward to it every week. So I feel, what do I feel? I feel? quite hopeful. I feel quite cheery. I don't feel really achy because I think my PRP is slowly starting to work, fingers crossed. Oh, this is good. So, I mean, that's now, give me 20 minutes, my mood will change completely. Intellectually, I'll just run through a couple of these. Intellectually, do you feel

blank, brain fog, resourceful, overwhelmed, insightful, discerning, forgetful, or wired and tired? Any of those? Or wise, that's an option. Yeah, I don't think any of those apply. Insightful. That's how I feel. I feel insightful. You need to answer the question as well, Joe. How are you really? Oh, freaking discombobulated ball. That's how I feel.

I was getting ready. And like you, this is becoming an oasis. I really like just coming into the room and sitting and talking to you and all our lovely diggers. And it's really nice. It's a moment of calm. But then I was getting ready. I cannot find my makeup bag anywhere. Oh, no.

Last night, I was so organised. And I thought, actually, things feel pretty cool. I know where everything is. I've unpacked. I've done stuff. Everything's in its right place, which is a rare feeling. And then I got up this morning. One of the kids is ill, had to get them an emergency doctor's appointment. The painter turned up. And could I find my makeup? I can't find it anywhere. So I'm wearing the makeup of a 16-year-old girl at the moment, but looking very much like a 60-year-old woman who doesn't know how to apply that makeup.

God knows what I look like a clown, probably. You don't. You look great. The thing is, I can't see. So it's quite good. It works perfectly. It's just from here. You look amazing. And you probably do look amazing. That is the thing. I have to have two of everything because I misplace it all. But what ends up happening is I have two mascara, they end up in the same bag. I have two lipsticks, they end up in the same bag. You get so used to the products that you love. I mean, Coco looks unbelievable when she leaves the house.

I mean, she's like ready for a catwalk. But me looking in her makeup bag, I just couldn't make sense of any of it or know where to apply it or what to do. And I have to just painted it all on. Yeah, exactly. Maybe we should do that as an exercise one week is get Nellie and Coco to do our makeup. and see if they do it better. Because Nell did give me a lesson on shading and stuff at one point, but I just forget it.

I forget what she's told me to do on what I put where. And obviously, what looks good on her at her age, our gorgeous 15, 16, 17-year-olds just doesn't sit quite the same way in our crepey older skin with their gorgeous, dewy skin that looks amazing, no matter what she put on it. I know that skin, yeah, I used to have that. Oh, dear. So should we dig in then?

We've got so many questions. So wonderful. All these people are getting in touch with us. Honestly, we love it so much. And getting your feedback is brilliant. And it's building and building. So first of all, we've got an email from Georgie. She says, hi, Joe, andzo, I'm 45.

And earlier on this year, I had a bit of a health wobble. Nothing dramatic. But enough to make me realize that I've been running on autopilot for years. And it really made me rethink how I was going about life. And I've made so many changes since then, like getting outside more and trying to appreciate the little things in life. And she said, was there ever a moment for you, maybe after an illness or burnout

or even a moment of kindness that changed you and had a dramatic effect? So that is George's question. Here you go, Georgie. Well, darling, I hope you're doing okay. And obviously the positive changes that you've made are paying off. I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily

to have a little moment like that in life. I feel sometimes there are these crossroad moments that can happen any. anywhere in your life that really stop you in your tracks and make you think, right, hang on, I've got to do this a slightly different way. I feel like I'm slightly in one of those at the moment where life has changed quite dramatically. And, you know, just with work and this, my mom and my kids, you know, not being around so much and suddenly you're looking around thinking, right, I'm probably going to have to change how I do things. So, yeah, I kind of get you. Also,

those little differences that you make, you know, practice what you preach, ball. I'm always saying to people get out in the garden, you know, it'll, you know, get out and walk or do some exercise because it lifts your, you know, endorphins makes your body work better, you know, makes everything tick over much better. It makes

your head happier. And then I find myself not even doing that sometimes and thinking, why do I feel so low? Oh my God. Poor me. Well, me. And it's like, get out there for God's because there's always an excuse. Not to be out there. So, Georgie, It's great to hear that you've had that moment. I hope you're doing all right.

How about you, Joe? Sort of moments for you. I remember distinctly, I don't know what I did, whether I ran or I went to the gym or something. I probably sneezed. It was probably something like that. And I had a muscle spasm in my back. So I went to go to bed.

And they are excruciating. I've now had it a couple of times. So I know what it is and I know that it goes away. But the very first time it happened, I just remember lying there throughout the entire night, being unable to move. I couldn't turn over. could barely get out of bed. And I just thought, oh my God, if this is it for the rest of my life,

I'm screwed. This is agonising, absolutely agonising. And it just, it was one of those light bulb moments that made me appreciate my health. Health is everything. If you've got good health, you are the luckiest person alive. And when it goes, everything changes. And it's, it's tough. It's really, really tough. So having a moment of excruciating pain. And I, you know, I got in touch with the physio, who's an amazing guy, Phil Paskin, Northampton, and he told me the things to do, you know about putting heat and then putting cold and then doing small stretches and then eventually eased off. It takes days. It can take two or three days. But eventually I became supple again and I could move and it was all right and the moment passed. But when it was in full effect when it kicked in,

I just had this terrifying moment of clarity of thinking, oh fuck, what if this is me forever now? What if this is it? I won't be able to swim. I won't be able to take the dogs to walk. I won't be able to live my life. And then I started, I realize the importance of stretching. So I think experiencing that was a wake-up call Georgie and that was the moment when I thought, okay, right. I'm going to stretch more. And I do try and stretch more. And I try and take more omega oils and look after myself a bit more. Yeah, you really have, haven't you?

I guess, and I keep saying that thing to myself of what you put in, you take out. So like in the same with work. You put loads of effort in. You get rewarded back. You put lots of effort into friendship or relationships. You get a lot back. And I guess that's the same for your body. If you put something in, if you work it, if you exercise, if you eat better, not all the time.

Yeah. But if you put the effort in, you'll get the rewards back. Fingers crossed. Yeah. But sometimes a little light bulb moment like that is really good because you think, hang on a minute, I've got to do something about this. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, maybe diggers let us know what that moment was for you in your life. If there was suddenly a moment where you thought, I'm going to change my ways. By the way, if you are enjoying Digit, if you are one of our diggers, make sure you hit follow on Apple or Spotify. And that way, everything is so much more simple. new episode just lands on your phone the minute it's out and there will be in your lives. Okay, we have a question from M, hi M. I turned 20 a couple of months ago. Oh, a youngster, fabulous. And entering my 20s has felt really overwhelming and scary. It feels like there's a lot

of pressure to grow up. I know how to do everything all of a sudden. And I know that lots of my friends feel the same is quite a confusing time. I was wondering, what your advice would be for me entering this new decade. What was the biggest lesson you learned in your 20s? I know you both have children of a similar age to me. So I wonder if there's anything you've learned from them being in their 20s as well. Thank you so much from M. It is, isn't it?

Suddenly you go from being a carefree teenager. I mean, I know there's exams and all that sort of stuff and you've got hormones and all sorts of things. But suddenly, 20s, you do have to do a huge amount of growing up. Suddenly you might have bills to pay. you've got, you know, cars to run. You've got, you know, to make decisions about your life and if you know what you want to do for a living and, oh, it can be completely overwhelming. I think I sort of went head on into mine pretty carefree when I was that age. I was like, wow, life is brilliant

freedom. Da-da-da-da-da. But I was really lucky when I was in my early 20s that I had lots of brilliant, strong women around me. And they tended to be the producers on the shows that I would work with. And I was so naive. I was a runner. I was sort of fresh from home and was really eager. But I was hopeless. I couldn't pay a bill. I couldn't cook food. There's a lot in life. I always think how on earth did I get a job, actually, because I was so naive. But I was surrounded by really brilliant women who would just take me under their wing and they would feed me and they would be, oh, love. And they'd tell me about the world. And I'm so grateful to all of those fabulous women, and I think of them often, actually. I think what I'd say am is, is don't panic.

Because I think it is, as Zoe said, life can be incredibly overwhelming when you're turning 20 and you're in your 20s. And you look at other people and, you know, more than ever before social media just shows you all these people living in their best life. They've got everything sorted. Take it from me. They haven't got everything sorted. They haven't.

Everybody is making it up as they go along and they're finding their way. And it's okay. That is absolutely fine. that is what the 20s are for. It's for you to explore, discover things that you like doing. Don't be afraid if you mess up, if you pursue something, if it's a job or it's a pastime, if it's a hobby, and you think, well, maybe I want to work in this. Maybe I want to work in fashion. Maybe I want to work in engineering. And then you start to do it and you actually, you don't enjoy it and it's not something for you. It's fine. You just put the brakes on and you just say, I'm not doing this. I'm going to retrain. I'm going to try something else.

And you can do that. You actually do have the luxury of time. do not feel pressured to just get in a groove and just keep doing that one thing because you don't have to. It's fine. It's fine to say, no, it's not for me. Yeah. And you're so right, Joe, you don't have to have it sussed. You know, some people grow up and they know they want to be a doctor and they do their sciences and they train and they go off to college and can do it. But I also know lots of people in their 20s, you know, dear friends of mine who aren't really sure where they're going or what they're doing. And I think, you know, job-wise, maybe just doing a job that will just pay you a little bit of an income for a while, whilst you figure it out is also a great

idea. And, you know, talking about this stuff, talking about feeling overwhelmed, sharing that, whether that's with your friends, because you'll find that a lot of them, like you said, are going to be feeling overwhelmed as well, or finding an adult, someone who's a bit older who's got a bit of life experience, who would love to listen to you, talk about these things and share with you, you know, because I think there's that fear, you're so convinced everyone else has got it sussed that you're scared to admit you haven't. And actually sharing and talking about it is a great, great thing to do. And I look at Woody and he's 25 and the difference in him from the age of 20 to 25,

I have to say, it's only this year that he's really starting to suss a few more things out, you know, and he's been hopeless with money and hopeless with lots of things and quite overwhelmed by all the stuff that he's had to deal with. and he's got such energy and eagerness for life. But it is really overwhelming, and it can be overwhelming in relationships as well. You know, like Joe says, we didn't grow up with social media around us,

but we didn't have all those pictures of, this is how it is, you know. And both Joe and I have made it up along the way. Yeah, we did not know what we wanted to do at all at all. You're just learning. I never grew up with a great big plan. And my kids haven't either. Just to reassure you,

they really, again, are just taking their time. So my children are, I've got Coco who's just about to turn 17. I've got Cass, who is 24. I've got Jude who is 26 and I've got India who is 33. And it's just been lovely watching them, just discover what they want to do. You know, Jude's a writer. He is writing a novel, but he's also a tour guide because he needs to pay the bills. He needs to earn some money.

And he's a real extrovert and he's a really good performer. He likes telling a tale, likes an audience. But that doesn't go hand in hand with being a writer because a writer is a very solitary thing. You're just sat there on your own. It drives him crazy and it gets quite lonely and isolating. So he's, I can't even think how it happened, Em, but he just got this job as a tour guide and he does Jack the Ripper Tours in London. And it's wonderful because it allows him to do something he really likes doing.

It earns him a bit of money. It allows him to carry on writing. But he's just figuring it out as he goes along. That's exactly what he's doing. And the most important thing that I say to all of them is just don't panic. You're so right, because, you know, some people are lucky enough to do a job that makes them really happy and it's all they've ever dreamed of doing. But some people, they have a passion on the side

and actually just need to do a job to earn some money so that they can enjoy their passion. And I've got quite a few friends who've found that in life. It's like, oh, I'm going to just do this job. It'll bring in some cash and it will give me some stability. But in the meantime, my passion might be making music, but I can't make money from it, or it might be, like you say, writing or, you know, making art or whatever it is.

Because sometimes you can't make huge amount of money from that. So you've almost got to sort of experiment with those things, but do not feel too much pressure, M. And thanks for reaching out to us, actually. Phil, honoured to be able to talk to you about it. Time for a quick ad break. However, if you'd like to skip them, all you have to do is become a potting shed member. You'll get bonus content, longer episodes, and early access to live shows. But most importantly, you'll be supporting the show to subscribe, head to digitpod.com.uk.

Or tap the link in the show notes. This episode of Digget is brought to you by QVC. You know, Joe, anxiety was the hardest part of menopause for me. That's why the articles and videos on the Menopause Your Way section of QVC's website really struck a chord. One was from Olympian, Michelle Griffith Robinson, who shared simple everyday hacks to boost confidence. And another from Karen Arthur, all about finding joy in what you wear. And it reminded me that getting older isn't about becoming a bit. invisible, it's an opportunity to rediscover your style and your spark. I've really enjoyed the sleep

content. Dr. Kat Liedler explains how our circadian rhythm shift and that we don't all need the mythical eight hours. It gave me permission to find my own sleep window and it made me realize how in tune I need to be with my body. And there's loads more on QBC's website. Nutrition tips from Karen Newby, articles from psychotherapist, Holly Rubin, even fitness and confidence advice from Kate Roham. Plus, the shop by symptom tool makes it so simple to find the relevant product, supporting you wherever you are in your menopause. To take a look, just search menopause at QVC UK.com. And don't forget to use the code, QDIG 10 for 10 pounds off your first purchase over 30 pounds. That's QDIG 10, QDIG10, for 10 pounds off your first order over 30 pounds.

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And Tilly sent us a message. It goes like this. Men and tool belts, I thought I was the only one, says Tiny. I've purchased many a boyfriend, a good sturdy tall belt, and even asked my friends if a man in a tool belt does something for them. And the looks of bewildment and headshaking made me think it was just me. However, thank you, Zoe. I am not alone. I'm single and I've purchased my own pink suede tool. Yes.

Tool belt. Oh, Tiny sent a photograph as well. Sadly, it doesn't have the same effect on men when I wear it. But obviously, Tiny, you're wearing it with pride. Let's have a look at her. I love it. I love it. Oh, my God.

It's a gorgeous tool belt. Look at all those different pockets. Tiny, I think you're hot. You look hot in that tool belt. Oh, it's just great. There's a place for everything. And she's got her yellow marigolds on as well. It's a good look, Tiny.

I love that. I love that. Look, it's the pinny, the t-shirt, the glasses and the tool belt. Tiny, you are a woman after my own heart. And I need to know where you got that tool belt from, by the way. It's very good. Zoe, I remember one of the first presents you ever bought me, and I found it in a drawer the other day. In fact, you might have brought it for Steve.

It was for one of us anyway. And it was a leatherman. Oh, yes. Do you remember a leatherman? Yes. Because I don't know whether they're like really popular now or whatever, but it's just, it's a gadget that is every tool imaginable. And it kind of packs away very compact, has its own little leather wallet, and you can tuck it in and put it in your tool belt, probably. In your tool belt?

Or put it in a drawer. But we had never, ever seen anything like it. And it's got a screwdriver, it's got pliers, it's got every attachment you could possibly want. But again, really, really small. It was one of the best things that anyone has ever bought us in our life. It changed our lives. But it was from you and it was about two decades ago. I think you brought it.

There we go. A very practical present. You see, that's where it all began. And obviously you bought me the hoary-hoery knife for the garden, which again has been one of my favourite tools ever. Yeah. More pictures of people in tool belts, please. Hang on that. Sounds like a kerosk.

I've got a gardening tool belt. I can do a picture in my gardening toolbell. Yes, please. A few weeks ago, Joe spoke about memories of watching films with her dad. Kerry has been in touch. Hi, Joe and Zoe. It's Kerry here. I am currently sitting on a very deserted beach in Portugal, having just sneaked off from the family holiday to have a little solo swim in the sea.

And I was listening to the podcast and it got me thinking about memories with your dad. Joe, you've been talking about watching British Cassie and the Sunsance Kid. And it made me just think about when we were kids, we used to drive with our caravan from Belfast all the way to. south of Barcelona. But every morning, my dad used to get up early and he used to go down to the beach and there was like a pontoon out in the sea that you could swim out to. It was maybe, I don't know, 30, 40 meters out in the sea. And that was dad's things. You'd get up in the morning and he'd swim out to the pontoon and then he'd go and get the breakfast. But the older I got, maybe about nine or 10, I decided that I wanted to go and swim a bad in the morning as well. So my beloved dad would take me

swimming out to the pontoon with him when now I understand as a parent of three myself how precious those moments to yourself on a family holiday and that was probably my dad's one precious moment in the day for a wee bit of headspace

but he took me with him because he knew I wanted to go and it's the most special gorgeous memory I have of time with my dad when I was little swimming out to that pontoon in the early morning

he'd help me get up on for it and we'd sit and we'd watch the fish swimming around. They start a lovely memory. Anyway, there you go. Just a wee nugget for you. Bye. Oh, Kerry.

I love that nugget. I love that nugget so much. You know what? Kerry's so right. It's kind of as a parent now, you sort of appreciate what your folks going through. Kerry, a similar thing for me. Occasionally, my dad would take me out with him in the car

when he had to pop into London to the BBC or to go and do jobs. And I'd be sort of hanging around the school holidays. He'd be like, Zoe, do you want to come with me for the day? And I'd just sit in, and I loved sitting in the front of his car. I loved it. He had his travel suites. He'd always be listening to Buddy Rich, I think it was, the big band music. We'd sing all the songs, and I'd go in and see him at work.

And they're treasured moments, those moments with your parents, in the same way that now Joe and I often talk about the school run. Or for me, the chats when Woody calls me up. You know, those moments are so treasured, aren't they? And I don't think your dad will have much. mind taking you for a swim at all because he too will have treasured those moments with you, even if it was his little quiet time away from the rest of the family. You know, what a special memory. We used to go on Mark Warner holidays, which were like holidays, people with kids who

wanted to do activities. And they were fantastic when India was tiny. They suited us so well, and the boys as well, but particularly with India, because we love doing water skiing and just like the water, but we didn't really know what we were doing. And there was a pontoon there. And you used to get up really early, so like 6.30 in the morning. And she must have been about, God, four, and she's always been a water babe. And she'd have a big life jacket on. And we would swim out to the pontoon. And she'd just kind of be doing doggy paddle because she couldn't properly swim yet. And she'd have a life jacket. And then we'd get all the way out there and sit on the pontoon. And then we'd get on a boat. And then we eventually learnt to water scheme, learnt to wakeboard.

We had such precious memories of swimming to that pontoon with India. The sun just beginning to beat down. and everything was hazy and it was still and like Kerry said you could see the fish swimming all around you and it was just gorgeous it was lovely. They're so precious. It really was. Your holidays are so the opposite to mine. I love it. You guys go and do those of water sports and climb mountains and do really active stuff and my family literally go and drink and eat. And Woody always used to wake up really early in the mornings and he'd try and wake me up and sometimes it would just be too early and he'd sort of say, I love you, mum, and then he'd totter off, and then I would fall back to sleep. And then I would wake up.

And honestly, he was so funny. He would do all these crazy things. So one time I opened my eyes and there would just be a cardboard box next to the bed. And it was all coloured in, and he'd hidden in the box. And he'd wait patiently in the box for me to wake up and be like, surprise. Another time, he'd taken all his cuddly toys and shoved them in his pajama bottoms and made them into these big billowy trousers. It was just standing there like this. Another time he'd made himself into a plane.

with cardboard sleeves on his arm or he'd be a pirate. He was so inventive and I obviously was a bear who was unwakeable like terrible parenting but I've got all these photographs of him because when I would wake up he'd just be like there would always be some amazing little performance art from him and I find them these photos come up all the time and I'm like oh woo you are just the best you are just the best but isn't that fascinating the signs were there early yeah because that that's his His personality then in India is now, she's so active and she loves the water and she's constantly doing open water swimming and she's hiking and she's enjoying the outdoor life. And wakeboarding as well. She's amazing at wakeboarding.

And I go back and I think, wow, we sowed those seeds when she was really, really tiny. And just her personality is what she wanted out of life and she really enjoyed it because that hasn't applied to all of my kids. But it was right for her. And by the way, I didn't, my family holidays would never like this at all. My mum and dad would just go and, you know, we'd go to folk festivals and we listen to music and we'd go to the bingo hall as I've talked about. We'd go to amusement arcade. So it's only, it's my family that I've created with Steve where we're really active and we do the swimming and the water and all the jumping in the water stuff. I always hear the adventures you get up to.

I'm like, wow. I want to come on one of your family holidays. Sounds amazing. I've struggled to keep up, to be honest with you. But I feel like, where's so? Oh, she's having a sleep. She's in the bar. Okay, let's move on to another time.

And this one is from Astrid who said, hi, Joe and Zoe, thank you so much for your podcast. I'm especially very grateful that you talk about openly about menopause and everything that comes along with it. I'm so much more aware of what's going on in my body now. And Zoe, something totally different. Last week, I was in London and I visited the Whitechapel Gallery with the Joy Gregory exhibition. I think I recognised you in a piece. Hope you've seen it too. Is this right? What? You are in a gallery. Oh my goodness me. We've got this picture that Astrid has sent to us. It's a photograph of you. Wow. What age would you have been there?

26. 24. I don't know. That's the Meg Ryan haircut. So I go trying to work out what era that was. Wow. What an interesting piece of art. So there's some hair above it.

Is that my hair or that's somebody else's hair? Or has somebody gone with a picture to the hairdress and said, can you give me this haircut? Astrid, I have never seen that. And thank you very much for sending it to me. And I will have to pop in to. The White Chapel Gallery. Yeah, you've been immortalised. I feel absolutely honoured. Whoever the artist is, thank you very much. Joy Gregory, I think it was, wasn't it? Joy Gregory. Brilliant. Okay, we've got a text from James. Hi, Joe and Zoe. My wife is an avid listener and therefore, by proxy, so am I. Welcome, James and bravo to your wife for introducing you to us. Each week, we pick over talking points and find ourselves name-checking you both often. You're becoming part of a natural rhythm of our lives. In the summer, we had a amazing road trip through Europe and throughout you both were there helping the long drives pass swiftly. It was Nick's birthday recently and it would literally blow her mind if you could say hi.

Thanks for reminding us all that life follows many paths and takes many different forms. Oh, James, how fantastic. And thank you for taking us on your road trip through Europe as well, by the way. I'm glad that we can be part of many of your conversations. And Nick, happy birthday to you gorgeous one hi Nick yeah Nick you're one of us yeah we love being part of your family it's nice where we're going next take us on another adventure where are we off to next I'd love to do a road trip around Europe definitely yeah what car would you want to do it in though what's the ideal car to do a road trip through Europe in do you want to do it in a camper van so that you can stop off on the way do you want to do it in an old sports car is that always practical though as I've said

before, you and Disco Steve are separated at birth because they are the two things he would love to do in a sports car, in a Porsche or go in a camper van. Me, I'd quite like to be in a nice, solid, fast car and stop off at a hotel along the way. I don't want to sleep in a camper van. I've done too many of that kind of stuff. Have you done too many of it? Yeah. I love that idea of one day buying a van and just big. I've got so many friends who have vans and they have such lovely lives of just taking the van off for a couple of days. And, you know, You know, just pulling it up somewhere wonderful. My brother does it sometimes.

You know, if he gets a night away from, you know, his family and the kids and stuff, sometimes he'll just take it a couple of miles down the road, find a little campsite, crack himself open a beer, light a little fire and sit out and watch the stars. I just think, what a lovely, lovely little break. Van Life. Van Life. If you're listening now, unlike James and Nick, if you want to share a story or ask a question, we are all ears.

All you have to do is drop us a voice notes because we like hearing your voices as well. It's really lovely getting to know you a bit better. or you can text on WhatsApp. You'll find the number in the show notes. Next question is from Amber. Hi, Amber. She says, my question is, how did you know when you were ready for baby number two when the time came? My first child is two in December and it's been a struggle. I had prenatal anxiety and suffered with postnatal depression and I'm still not myself and struggle. I love my little boy and we both want him to have a sibling to complete our family. but I'm scared, really scared. I'm not at all surprised, Amber. What if I get worse? What's it like starting all over again? But with a toddler, how do you even manage both? Thank you. And thank you for adding to my

Monday pod list. Podcasts are my company and escape during the longer, more difficult days from Amber. Amber, darling so lovely to hear from you I've had friends who've had a real similar experience to you and it's quite frightening you know going through sort of prenatal and postnatal anxiety

and depression and I think you should cut yourself a bit of slack Amber because it really sounds like you've been through it and are coping with a lot my darling so you know I wouldn't be rushing into thinking about the second baby, maybe give yourself a little bit of time because little one's only tiny still

and if you're still struggling a little bit. Also, I have to say, you know, I always wanted to have more than one kid, but I've also seen lots of friends go through having kids and some who've struggled to have a baby and then have thought, actually, we've got one and we're really grateful and we're really happy. You don't have to have another baby. You can have one child, and they will have cousins and friends, and you'll have friends with kids that they can grow up and enjoy a life with. So maybe take that pressure off yourself a little bit for now about having your second one. Between my two, it's nearly 10 years. And I think the second time around with Nell, we were a little bit more together. We were all a little bit calmer. We were a little bit more

grown up. And it was a lot easier. And also, can I say when we did have Nellie, Woody had been on his own for years and was really loving life. It was like, yeah, I've got everyone's attention, da-da-da. And then suddenly along came this very cute little sibling. And he was furious. And, you know, there was such a big gap between them. It took them quite a long time to become the great friends that they've become now as they've got older. So, yeah, I just think maybe give yourself a little bit of time, Amber.

Yeah, absolutely. Don't stress about the age gap. There's this kind of ideal that, you know, have your kids close together and they'll be best buddies. That is the case sometimes. but also I've got massive age gaps between my children. I've got 17 years between Coco and India, and they adore each other. There's like seven years between a couple of them. There's 10 years between another.

But as a gang, they're great. And they all get different things out of each other at different stages in their lives. So the age gap thing, just relax about it. It's fine if you need some more time. And because you've had troubles and issues in the past, and hopefully there's a really good support network around you. So maybe it won't be so bad next time. I mean, it's impossible to tell, isn't it?

We sit here and we just can't possibly tell you. But hopefully there will be people who will look after you and it might not be so bad. You'll get support because it might have hit you out of the blue before, like a ton of bricks, but now you're aware of it. And the anticipation must be so terrifying and so daunting, but it might not be so bad next time. And the whole thing about how will you feel about your newborn when it comes

and will you love it as much as the other one? I've had that every single time with the four kids that I've got. Every time you get pregnant, you're like, I just can't possibly love anything else. again because I've got all my love is invested in these children and I have no more love to give to anybody. And then this baby comes along and you're like, oh no, I do, I love you as well. And it's fine. You have so much love inside you that you will love the baby that comes along eventually if you have another child. I think, you know, we all want, it's like we want your kids to have siblings,

but it's not always the way for everybody. So don't feel that pressure. I remember when I wanted to have my next child after I had India and Steve was quite reluctant, he always says, I wasn't reluctant, but I'm telling you now he was a little bit reluctant. He thought we were a great gang of three. And then we wanted to have another one who was eventually jude. But I just couldn't get pregnant for ages and ages. And I don't know whether it was what it was. I don't know if it was lifestyle.

I don't know, you know, I don't think I was eating brilliantly at the time. It was that whole kind of all you need to be super thin. So I was like, oh, I'll try and be super thin. And whatever it was. And we ended up going to doctors, having fertility tests, being checked out. And everything was absolutely fine. And the doctor just said to us, just go away, see what happens. And, you know, eventually he came along.

But it took six years. It was a lot. That's why there's a big age gap between them. I didn't particularly want a big age gap between the two of those. But it's just the way it was. And also we have to have genetic testing when we have, I have kids, because there's a possibility that their child will have the same syndrome that my sister has. So that's like an added layer of stress when it comes to you having children. So that was always at the back of my mind of like, oh, my God, I need to have as many children as possible just to make sure that they're okay.

Because I don't know what's going to happen with each pregnancy. So it's a multi, it's a freaking complicated thing getting pregnant and then having children and then being a mum. Every single stage of the way there are different kind of nuances and things that you tackle. But you get through them. With the support and love of other people around you, you get through them. That's it for today's episode. But if you want even more questions and answers, become a member of the potting shed and you'll get longer episodes. Remember, if you have any questions or comments, we would love to hear from the

Details on how to subscribe to the potting shed and how to get in touch are in the show notes and we'll see you on Wednesday. I'll see you Wednesday, Joe. See you then. Bye. Digit is a Persephonica production.