Digital Social Hour - Dr Gabrielle Lyon On American Food Pyamid, Meats Causing Cancer & Ideal Body Fat % | DSH #148
Episode Date: November 4, 2023On today's episode of Digital Social Hour, I sit down with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon to talk about her new book, the healthiest type of protein to eat and the importance of the skeletal muscle. BUSINESS I...NQUIRIES/SPONSORS: Jenna@DigitalSocialHour.com APPLY TO BE ON THE POD: https://forms.gle/qXvENTeurx7Xn8Ci9 SPONSORS: Opus Pro: https://www.opus.pro/?via=DSH HelloFresh: https://www.hellofresh.com/50dsh AG1: https://www.drinkAG1.com/DSH Hostage Tape: https://hostagetape.com/DSH LISTEN ON: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/digital-social-hour/id1676846015 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5Jn7LXarRlI8Hc0GtTn759 Sean Kelly Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmikekelly/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Transcript
Discussion (0)
I want to talk about some food and health myths I see on social media.
The one that really scared me for a while was the red meat one,
how it causes cancer, but now there's been studies that that was false.
Correct. Red meat does not cause cancer. Let's go.
A good physician recognizes patterns of disease,
but an effective physician recognizes patterns of people.
Well, the food pyramid has been the harshest
social experiment that we have.
When the food pyramid came into play, obesity skyrocketed.
Wow. All right, guys, welcome back to the show.
We're here on the Digital Soul Shower.
I got a very inspiring guest for you guys today.
Hopefully, we'll change your opinions on health.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon.
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Absolutely.
You have a very powerful message, I must say.
I haven't seen anyone else really preaching what you preach.
So I'd just like to thank you for that.
Oh, absolutely.
I think together we can change the narrative of health and wellness.
Yeah.
Because as it is right now, we haven't been doing a good job.
Absolutely.
So what are sort of your key points that you try to stress?
Yeah.
Well, first of all, we've been trying to fight this obesity epidemic for the last 50 years.
And as you can see, for the last 50 years, not only have we gotten fatter, sicker, but
we haven't gotten anywhere.
And one has to think, is it because the challenge is too big or is it because we're asking the
wrong question?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani Right.
Dr. Sarah Hicks And when you change the paradigm of the question,
then the result should be different so right now we've been
focused on obesity what we have to lose diseases like cardiovascular disease alzheimer's disease
even diabetes as the problem but i believe that those are symptoms of unhealthy muscle
that these diseases begin in skeletal muscle decades before. So essentially, we're not over fat, we're under muscled.
Wow.
And by focusing on skeletal muscle as this organ of longevity,
focusing on what we have to gain versus what we have to lose,
then we can break through some of these old limiting beliefs.
Yeah, I've seen you talk about the importance of the skeletal muscle, right?
And it's 40% of the body or something?
Yeah, 40% of the body.
Although for you, it might be more. Yeah. So what causes unhealthy muscle? What does that look like?
Yeah. Have you ever had a filet? Yeah, steak. A steak filet. And it's really lean when you go.
You can do tons of steakhouses here in Vegas. Right. Have you ever had a ribeye? Yeah, fatty.
Fatty. It has connective tissue infiltrated in that. That's what unhealthy muscle looks like.
Versus healthy skeletal muscle is lean and does not have a ton of connective tissue.
It is like, just looks like a filet.
Got it.
And what happens is, is when we're young and there's information and data that's come out of Yale,
and this was really hallmark, was that healthy
18-year-old but sedentary individuals can show signs of skeletal muscle insulin resistance
before you get disease. Now, why am I talking about insulin resistance? Insulin is a peptide
hormone released from the pancreas, and it moves glucose out of the bloodstream into tissues the primary site
for glucose disposal and by the way glucose at high levels is toxic that's the definition of
diabetes right so you need to move glucose out of the bloodstream into tissues the primary site for
that disposal is skeletal muscle interesting and if you do not address the health of skeletal muscle, then it's just
like a marbled steak. So if you were going to go on vacation and let's say you're going on vacation
for four days, but you pack for 30 days and your muscle is a suitcase. If your muscle is the
suitcase and you're over packing it, ultimately it runs out of room.
Right.
And blood glucose builds up, fatty acids build up, might see elevations in insulin, triglycerides, all things that eventually cause metabolic disease.
But we've been trying to fix metabolic disease from a symptom standpoint of addressing body fat.
Right.
That's not the core issue. And I feel like that's sort of the Western medicine philosophy in general. Decade after decade after decade. And now it's
really starting to compile, right? Right. Yeah. And then also the standard American diet, like
the food pyramid. What do you think of that? You're probably not a fan of that, right? Well,
the food pyramid has been the harshest social experiment that we have. When the food pyramid came into play, obesity skyrocketed.
Wow.
And you think they would have changed it or something by now?
I mean, they have.
They moved to MyPlate, which, again, the idea is how do we take nutrition, which is very-
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much you could save. That's policygenius.com slash 50DSH. Very personal and provide guidelines
so that individuals can execute on those guidelines. And it becomes, it's a very,
it's a challenge. It's a challenge because you have a different diet than I have.
Your producer has a different diet.
And so how do we make sense and put guidelines that can kind of meet everyone's minimum need?
Right.
Yeah, there's no one fit all diet, right?
I agree.
And I have to say that there are strong scientific principles that we should follow.
For example, dietary protein as a primary component of a nutritional plan is key.
Right.
And the evidence supports that.
Dietary protein, again, we talk about macronutrients.
We talk about proteins, carbohydrates, and fats as if they're one thing.
But protein is made up of 20 different amino acids, nine of which are essential.
Each of those essential amino acids are individual nutrients that have diverse biological roles.
So the needs of those amino acids change as we age.
And we need more and different kinds versus you could have a carbohydrate intake the same how old are you now
26 26 at 36 you could probably have the same carbohydrate intake got it and then at 56 you
could probably have the same carbohydrate intake but if you have the same protein intake and that
protein intake is insufficient your body will change and it can become sarcopenic. We've all seen aging parents, aging grandparents.
Those changes are preventable. And if we don't evolve our way of eating and thinking about nutrition and training as we age and understand that the influx of information is really symptom
based as opposed to thinking about optimal health, then we don't have a chance.
Wow. That's such a simple fix to just increase your protein every few years, but we don't have a chance. Wow. That's such a simple fix to
just increase your protein every few years, but people don't even know that. Right. And part of
the problem is because the narrative against protein is so strong. And you and I were talking
off camera, it's very emotional. Yeah. But nutrition doesn't need to be emotional. It can
be empiric. It can be based on data. And when we prioritize for dietary protein metabolic things fall into
place obviously calories matter but dietary protein and the current recommendations are
first of all based on nitrogen balance studies so essentially what that means is is they measure
nitrogen and they measure nitrogen in your sweat in your feces and your urine and that came from
agricultural data from animals what they were trying to do is figuring out how to
feed an animal with the lowest amount of cost that will be enough protein for
them to grow but also be cost-effective right it all comes down to money at the end of the day with these big companies.
But that doesn't mean that that's for optimal health.
Right.
So the RDA is 0.37 grams per pound.
So if you're 115 pounds, that's about 45 grams of protein.
Got it.
That's the minimum to prevent deficiencies.
54 grams if you're 117 pounds?
45.
Oh, 45.
So if you're 115 pounds and the recommendation is 0.37 grams
per pound which is nothing yeah that would be 45 grams of protein so you're saying that's enough
because i've heard it's one pound per every that would be ideal got it but the the guidelines so
the general public will look at the rda and go well well, that's the optimal intake. That's archaic.
Those guidelines haven't been updated since 1968.
Wow.
And you just think about even the digital happy hour of how fast things are changing.
Yeah.
And we haven't even updated these nutritional guidelines since the 60s.
Yeah.
That's a long time.
And the ideal percentage of protein or the ideal amount of protein is double the RDA.
So around 0.7?
Exactly.
0.7 to one gram per pound ideal body weight.
Yeah.
And then in terms of different proteins, there's so many types, right?
Cajun, plant, whey.
Have you seen any compelling studies on any of those?
Like the best one?
All the time.
And again, this is highly emotional for people.
And when we talk about the quality of protein, it is a purely biological number.
High quality proteins are proteins that are high in the essential amino acids.
Those come from animal based products like beef, chicken, whey protein, eggs, dairy.
Low quality proteins, again, based on biological numbers of essential amino acids, are things like soy,
corn, wheat. And it certainly is not an emotional conversation when we talk about the quality.
The next thing that I want to point out is it's not just about the protein. So they're not
interchangeable. When we talk about dietary protein, you have to think about the food matrix. A beef burger, for example, a lean meat would have
creatine, carnitine, taurine, and serine, these low molecular weight molecules. B12 zinc versus
a plant might have polyphenols or other things that are not in high amounts in animal products.
They're not interchangeable from the nutrient standpoint even if you were to be able
to get protein high enough from a plant-based source I think it's prudent
to incorporate both yeah I've tried plant it just never does a trick for me
for some reason feel different on it and that could be because again they're not
interchangeable yeah molecular weight molecules because again they're not interchangeable yeah because of those low
molecular weight molecules it's just not an interchangeable yeah you could do you could look
at um protein from beef and then a protein source like tofu while the protein might be the same
clearly it's not the same substance right and it's the food matrix that really matters that that nutrient density
interesting yeah speaking of like uh vegetables i'm seeing this kind of health epidemic in india
because there's a lot of vegans vegetarians over there have you seen that um i've seen it from a
metabolic perspective there's a lot of metabolic disease yeah is that because they're not eating
you know meat basically there is i think there's a predisposition depending on where someone is.
There may be genetic predispositions.
I can't say for certain, but a lower protein diet or a lower protein quality diet definitely has metabolic implications.
Wow.
And it certainly has metabolic implications on the health of skeletal muscle.
Interesting.
Because the goal is
again it's not about what we have to lose it's not about obesity it's about this midlife muscle
crisis and how do we maintain for example you're very lean the goal for you might not be um that
you ever have to worry about body fat but what you will have to worry about body fat. But what you will have to worry about is maintaining the health of your skeletal muscle.
Because that's what you have to lose.
Yeah, and that comes from high quality protein sources.
It comes, well, because you're young,
the data would support that you could probably
maintain that tissue on plant-based proteins,
but the question becomes over time.
What does that look like, not just in the acute period,
but over time? And over time as you age, I that look like not just in the acute period but over time?
And over time as you age, I would say it's not optimal.
Right.
And is the damage to the skeletal muscle reversible?
It is.
Oh, it is?
Yeah.
So you can fully recover?
You can recover but what rides along with muscle is bone.
Right.
And bone density.
And bone density comes from high quality proteins and dairy and then obviously other nutrients but
you have to build and maintain bone density over time got it bone density and that's through just
vitamins right um it's through exercise and high quality protein calcium vitamin d k2
so are you taking supplements what are your thoughts on supplements i think supplements
can be great for women
that are at risk for osteoporosis.
Those women, or if a woman is not menstruating,
I would definitely recommend a bone supplement.
But you can get a lot of your food through,
or a lot of your nutrients through food,
and that's the ultimate goal.
Yeah, I try to be as natural as possible.
I went on a weird phase where I was taking
like 40 uh
supplements a day and it just didn't who has time for that you know brian johnson which um yes yeah
so he takes like 100 a day so i went on his site i bought like half of them and i'm like dude like
my body hurts like this is too much so i cut back heavy yeah yeah now i'm down to maybe 5 10
i think a handful of supplementation is amazing.
But, you know, as long as it's very targeted.
Yeah, absolutely.
What have you seen surrounding inflammation?
I keep seeing mixed things about it, if it's good, if it's bad.
But what have you seen with it?
Well, the question becomes, there's a few things when we unpack inflammation,
is what is the cause of inflammation?
Essentially, acute exercise could be inflammation provoking.
But overall, because skeletal muscle is an endocrine organ, it is anti-inflammatory.
So when you contract skeletal muscle, it releases myokines.
Myokines are hormones that spread throughout the body that interact with bone, that interact with brain, that interact with your liver, that interact with the immune system.
When you contract skeletal muscle, it releases the most famous myokine, interleukin-6.
And interleukin-6 has a different effect on tissues than interleukin-6, which would be
called a cytokine when it is released from macrophages or cells of the
immune system there was a whole big thing about that cytokine storm and that's a highly inflammatory
process well skeletal muscle contracting skeletal muscle as an endocrine organ also releases
myokines and that has a counterbalancing effect. Inflammation allows the body to mount a response
and that can be positive,
but chronic inflammation over time,
like when an individual is obese
or fighting some kind of disease,
then the body can definitely become dysregulated.
Wow, that's scary.
And with these diseases,
a lot of them are
caused from diet, right? Are they caused from diet? Yes. And I would say that the biggest influence
that anyone has is the health of skeletal muscle. Does diet play a role in inflammation?
If you have a healthy body composition
and you are lean and you have healthy skeletal muscle,
then you probably have more leeway with your diet.
Right.
But if you are not training
and optimizing for skeletal muscle,
then your diet, I mean, diet is always critical.
Yeah.
But you have a lot less flexibility.
Got it. So you'd say the training is super important, like the weightlifting.
Training probably trumps diet from a full homeostatic influence in the body.
Wow. I've never heard that.
I know. I would like to think that it's all diet, but 100 of people eat you have to nail diet it's the
thing that 100 of people do people might miss their workouts right and 50 of americans don't
even exercise that's a lot and out of the individuals that exercise you have maybe 24
are actually meeting the abysmal recommendations, which is 150 minutes a week.
150 a week, I think I'm doing that.
And two days a week of resistance training, it's nothing.
That's something I got to work on.
So resistance training, that's with bands, right?
You could start with bands.
You could start with body weight.
And I think the biggest thing, Sean, for your audience is to understand that
when we frame the conversation around muscle,
if I say muscle, what's the first thing you think? Just like flexing. Totally. Yeah. And all your list,
all your viewers probably think the same thing. My goal is to change the conversation around muscle
from a muscle centric medicine perspective. Muscle is not about looking jacked and tan.
That's a positive. You can look good naked. All of that is positive. But the reality is the
influence of
skeletal muscle on overall health and well-being is paramount. Skeletal muscle is the pinnacle.
It's an organ system, just like the pulmonary system or the cardiovascular system. Skeletal
muscle is an organ system that makes up 40 some percent of the body. When that system has pathology meaning it becomes unhealthy
think about the mass influence that has from a regulation of metabolism from a
regulation of your immune system contracting skeletal muscle releases
glutamine glutamine is the food or energy source for white blood cells Wow
skeletal muscle is so
much more and really if we shift the focus away from body fat yeah we can
become much more empowered because at the core and at the root skeletal muscle
is where we have to focus as our paramount effort and it is the only
tissue that's under voluntary control Wow that's super interesting to me
because I've had a low white blood cell count my whole life.
I think it's genetic.
That's genetic.
Asian side.
So I never even was told to train my skeletal muscle for that, you know?
Right.
So that's super interesting.
And I think people, they like to see their results visually.
So that's probably why they focus on just their muscle that they could see with their own eyes.
Skeletal muscle, you can't really see the results, right?
Well, I mean, you could look jacked, right?
Yeah.
And again, even if we shift away from the aesthetic component and really appreciate
the fact that skeletal muscle has a focal point in medicine, then perhaps we don't need
40 million people on statins and perhaps we don't need
all of the prescriptions that are required now. What are statins? Statins are things that's
HMG coase depend inhibitor depends on. It's a way to lower LDL. Got it. Is that a steroid
basically? It's not. Oh, the opposite. Yeah. Well, statins impact like overall cholesterol and LDL and they affect.
So typically if you go to your physician and you have elevated levels of LDL, they'll put
you on a statin.
Got it.
And I would argue before we do that, obviously I'm not your physician, maybe I am, but you
have to address the health of skeletal muscle because skeletal muscle at rest is the, you know, it uses fatty acids.
Yeah.
It uses fat for fuel.
Got it.
I want to talk about some food and health myths I see on social media.
The one that really scared me for a while was the red meat one, how it causes cancer.
Yeah.
But now there's been studies that that was false, right?
Correct.
Red meat does not cause cancer.
Let's go.
And it's interesting. It just takes a lot of time for information to pick up steam.
It doesn't.
Yeah, they were scaring me, man. I even gave it up for like a few months, I think, when I saw that.
One would have to take a step back and say, where are the randomized controlled trials?
Where is the quality of evidence there was a great set of papers out of animals of internal medicine where they
looked at exactly that question do we need to reduce our red meat consumption
and there was no high quality evidence to support that Wow and then the next
question you one would have to ask is what would be the mechanism of action
the claims that they make about red meat are
essentially like the claims they make about smoking how is this one food that is found in
nature that our brains developed eating as bad for you as smoking right how does that make sense
doesn't it just it doesn't yeah the only thing i could see possibly even being close is the ones
that are injected with all those hormones and stuff.
But even that's fine.
Even that.
The question is, does that actually get into the meat?
Into the meat?
Yeah.
I mean, I try to eat organic.
I don't know if that's even a marketing ploy itself.
No.
I mean, it's not.
Grass-fed organic meats are great.
They're, I would say, a very healthy food yeah um you know as with any
practices any large practice any large uh conventional practices there's going to be
challenges but you have to understand meat is highly regulated right usda is highly regulated
something else to understand is that and you would appreciate this and the business people
would appreciate this is whoever has the money controls the narrative and the marketing.
And beef is a commodity.
Beef, soy, corn, egg, milk, those are all commodities.
And they're under the jurisdiction of the USDA.
Their collective marketing budget, right?
Do you know individual milk farmers or dairy farms no what about for out of all the cattle farmers do you know the names of give me
five can't they pull their resources together and their collective marketing
budget is 750 million collectively marketing no collectively everybody
versus PepsiCo one company has almost $2 billion for marketing.
Oh, I see what you're saying.
And is under a different jurisdiction.
Got it.
USDA commodities, these are small farms.
Yeah.
And they have one-liners.
For example, I say milk and you say, does the body good?
I say pork and you say the other white meat.
I say beef, you say what's for dinner
right versus fake meats you'll hear are better for the planet and they make all these
astronomical claims yeah a commodity as a whole food can't say anything disparaging against a
processed food interesting i see people on social media eating uh like raw stuff have you seen these i have
yeah it's pretty i mean do you eat anything raw i don't yeah i'm not a fan of that i don't
i like it a little cooked at least i like it a lot cooked um but in general like what's your diet
is it mainly meat no no it's not i eat a higher protein diet i eat around one gram per pound body weight i'm
about 110 pounds and i eat a lot of fruits and vegetables wow you eat more protein than me i
need to step it up yeah it would be but again um the time is now for you to do that because it's
not if it's a when skeletal muscle declines as we age. And just like your bank account, you wanna pad it now,
not when you need it.
Yeah, so you basically are saying
it's harder to grow muscle as you get older.
You can do it, but it's more challenging.
When you're young, you're driven by hormones,
you have a lot of adaptability,
you're primed for muscle growth,
and as you age, hormones decline you don't want to be driven
by insulin anymore right you don't want to gain weight yeah you have to really the balance between
diet and exercise changes yeah are you fasting do i fast or am i fasting now no like in general do
you do intermittent fasting um depends on the day but i will typically push the fasting earlier
eating earlier i think is better especially after an overnight fast really because your skeletal
muscle is primed remember skeletal muscle is a focal point for health and wellness yeah and
you have to balance these you know the the way you maintain skeletal muscle is you balance the
turnover or catabolism of it with the building of it, the synthesis of it.
And it's a dynamic process that's always going on.
And after you are coming out of an overnight fast, your body's primed.
Got it.
I wouldn't continue to fast later on in the day.
I would say eat earlier and then fast later.
Wow.
Yeah, I'm doing the opposite.
I'm skipping breakfast, fasting, I guess 16 hours
and then eating around in the afternoon. So then you've gone all that time without
protecting skeletal muscle. Oh my gosh. See, it's hard to, there's so much stuff online,
you know what I mean? And you think you're following the right advice and then you hear
other opinions. It's hard to find the right opinion. You have to vet the opinion. And so
I wrote this book that is coming out called forever strong and I wrote it for
the layman I wrote it for people that are totally confused and you want to
know why I wrote it because I'm a trained a trained geriatrician do you
know what that is no I did my fellowship in individuals over the age of 65 okay
and so I did a fellowship for two years. I
did clinical research as well as seeing patients. I did obesity medicine research and then did my
clinicals in geriatrics. While those seem very different, it's towards the end of life. Not
saying 65 is towards the end of life, but your job as a geriatrician is you are taking care of
the aging population. Right. And that includes palliative care that includes people that are dying and you're at
the bedside and you're rounding on them that includes individuals that are in nursing homes
and i just had this moment where i saw online everybody fighting everyone, go vegan, go vegetarian, do this diet, do that diet.
And that space in time is so critical.
And the distraction is so great that just like you at 26 is trying to figure it out.
That window of opportunity closes.
And that's why I wrote this book.
It is an evidence-based book that, and again, I trained in nutritional sciences for seven years and i'm a physician yeah and so there's a responsibility to step in and say okay well
what do we know right i love that i love evidence stuff but also there's always like a study for
something and against so you got to read within the lines almost i would say that they're the
way that you think about that is what is the collective body of evidence?
It's not a study.
It's not one or two studies.
The research on protein, they're decades.
It's decades old.
Right.
There are enough.
There is enough evidence.
And there's multiple groups that support high quality protein in aging.
Wow.
That's incredible.
You did that for two years. You must have really learned a lot
about, you know, cause they were telling you everything about their health, right? Yeah. Um,
well I've been, uh, I trained, um, so I've been a doctor since 2006. Wow. I did my undergraduate
nutritional sciences, studied under one of the world leading experts in protein metabolism.
And then I did medical school and I did two years of psychiatry training and then three years of family medicine.
Oh, my God.
And then I did a postdoc at Wash U in St. Louis.
That's like 15 years of education.
That's crazy.
Yeah.
And what you learn that is so valuable is that a good physician recognizes patterns of disease.
But an effective physician recognizes patterns of people.
Whoa. Trying to wrap my head around that statement.
So what do you mean by that?
Meaning if you understand where a person fails on their health and wellness journey
and you exploit their weaknesses, you teach them how to get the best out of themselves.
And you remove the physical obstacles.
You remove the distraction.
Wow, sounds powerful.
I don't
think a lot of people are capable of that. Well, that's what probably my most valuable training.
And that the other part of the value to the training that I did is seeing end of life.
Life is short and it is gone in a second. Every moment matters. Being distracted matters.
Understanding that you have to create a strong and capable body so that you can leave a legacy.
Yeah, I love that.
I've lost some people recently and it's crazy.
You never know.
You assume you're going to hit 70, 80, 90 or whatever, but you just never know.
There's no guarantee.
Yeah.
And that's why this mission is so important because for the time that we have, we should do good with it.
Absolutely.
It's been super fun. Anything you want to close off with or promote before we wrap up just that this book can change the world it will change this book is called forever strong
you can get on my website dr gabrielle lion you can get on amazon and this has the potential to
change the narrative of the obesity epidemic that we're facing. I love that.
Do you know what the rates are right now?
The what?
How many people are obese in America?
It's well over 40%.
Oh my gosh, that's high.
40% are either overweight or obese.
So you're going to change tens of millions of lives.
Yeah, we are, my friend.
We are.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, thanks for coming on.
Thanks for watching, guys, as always.
And I'll see you next time